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Current disputes

Stakeholder Capitalism

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Stakeholder Capitalism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Bolgerb1953 (talk · contribs)
• MrOllie (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An individual has arbitrarily decided that the concept of Stakeholder Capitalism is the same as Stakeholder Theory, likening it to another name for "fish and chips." He summarily deleted the entry and redirected it to Stakeholder Theory, which isn't even mentioned in all of the business media now discussing the topic. However, a quick Google search will reveal that the concept of Stakeholder Capitalism has become an international topic being debated in such leading media as the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Fortune, the Financial Times, Business Roundtable, etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=stakeholder+capitalism&sxsrf=AOaemvJldTUqIUgvk7nSpI5SlhcuQ-kTMQ%3A1630852325850&source=hp&ei=5dQ0Ya3nMKKx5NoPhd65kA4&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYTTi9fC1kNvvoMIJfFshlkOwnQDytU-i&oq=stake&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIECCMQJzIECCMQJzIECCMQJzINCAAQgAQQhwIQsQMQFDIICAAQgAQQsQMyCAgAEIAEELEDMgUIABCABDIICC4QgAQQsQMyCAgAEIAEELEDMggIABCABBCxAzoICC4QsQMQgwE6CwguEIAEEMcBEKMCOgsILhCABBDHARDRAzoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEKMCOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQM6BQgAEJIDOgsILhCABBCxAxCDAVCK1gFYxNoBYLbmAWgAcAB4AIABcogB7wOSAQMzLjKYAQCgAQE&sclient=gws-wiz

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Here is a thread of the dispute. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:MrOllie

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Review the many articles referencing Stakeholder Capitalism against the article Stakeholder Theory. If everyone thought Stakeholder Theory was the same as Stakeholder Capitalism, why is everyone using the term Stakeholder Capitalism in these many articles and no one is using the term Stakeholder Theory.

Stakeholder Capitalism discussion

Reply by Bolgerb1953

Bruce Bolger has been an editor and a publisher in the people management space for over 30 years in the US. See: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brucebolger/

I am the owner of the Enterprise Engagement Alliance at http://TheEEA.org, a think tank on people management that publishes Engagement Strategies Media at http://EnterpriseEngagement.org, and have written hundreds of articles and two books on people management issues. Our revenues come from businesses seeking to promote or profit from the concepts of employee and customer engagement.

I am not being paid by anyone or any sponsor publish this article Misplaced Pages.

Because our organization supports a strategic focus on people, we write about over two aspects of people management, including sales, marketing, human resources, supply chain and distribution management, and many related topics.

We began writing specifically about Stakeholder Capitalism when the Business Roundtable in the US changed its charter to focus on addressing the needs of all stakeholders, not just shareholders.

Other than our interest in the subject, and my extensive experience in people management, neither I nor my company will derive any direct or indirect financial benefit from the publication of this article. It was scrupulously written to address both sides of the growing debate.

Please note, as the article demonstrates, there is a large and public debate about the concept of Stakeholder Capitalism, which embraces both people and the environment, not one of which even mention Stakeholder Theory. As earlier stated, Stakeholder theory is a subset of Stakeholder Capitalism, as is Enterprise Engagement, ESG, and other approaches to its implementation. It is the equivalent of quantum mechanics to physics, or obstetrics to medicine.

Bolgerb1953 (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The dispute is about the redirecting of Stakeholder Capitalism to Stakeholder theory. This was done because MrOllie concluded that Stakeholder capitalism was a content fork of Stakeholder theory. A content fork is the situation in which two articles are about the same or almost the same topic but have different content, often because they have competing points of view. That is, two articles in Misplaced Pages disagree, and appear to be arguing with each other, because their authors were arguing with each other. For obvious reasons, Misplaced Pages cannot allow content forks to exist. That is why I asked these questions a day ago:

• 1. Are stakeholder capitalism and stakeholder theory two names for the same concept?
• 2. If yes, which is the preferred name?
• 3. If not, what is the difference, and do we need separate articles, or can we combine them into one article?

It appears that MrOllie's reading is that they are the same concept, and it appears that Bolgerb1953 is now saying that one of them is a superset of the other. What Bolgerb1953 should propose is a split of the article into two articles. The merits of the split should be discussed on the talk page of the existing article, Talk:Stakeholder theory. If there is a consensus to split, then two articles will be the result. It will be necessary to compare and review the two articles to ensure that they are neither duplicative nor contradictory. If there is a consensus against splitting, then the current article will remain, and can and should be edited to incorporate any additional information. If discussion is inconclusive, a Request for Comments can be used to obtain additional community input.

I have not reviewed the content of the articles and am not offering a view as to whether there is one topic with two names, or whether one topic is a superset of the other.

There has also been a question about whether Bolgerb1953 has a conflict of interest as the head of a think tank that publishes on people management and employee and customer engagement, including on stakeholder capitalism. I am not offering a view at this time as to whether Bolgerb1953 has a conflict of interest that will constrain their ability to edit in this area collaboratively.

Response by MrOllie

On the contrary, I reverted the notification because I asked Bolgerb1953 to stop posting on my talk page after a round of personal attacks. It was only in part a notification, so I elected to remove it. I'm willing to participate here if we can head off a repetitive talk page discussion which I suspect will be in the offing otherwise. - MrOllie (talk) 04:03, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

First Statement by Moderator (Stakeholders)

Thank you, User:MrOllie.

I will try to act as the moderator. Read the ground rules. Each of you are responsible for complying with the rules. If you do not comply with the rules, I will fail the discussion. I will try to be neutral, but if one editor complies with the rules and the other does not, I will stop being neutral. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements are not helpful. They may permit the poster to feel better, but they often do not clarify the issues, except to establish having a strong opinion. Civility is required everywhere in Misplaced Pages, and especially in dispute resolution. The purpose of discussion is to improve the article or articles, and so should be focused on the encyclopedia. So discuss content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors. Comments that get into personalities will be collapsed. Also, do not reply to each other or engage in back-and-forth, except in the space that I provide for you (where back-and-forth can be ignored). Address your answers to me, as the representative of the community, not to each other.

I have outlined above what I think the issues are. Please provide one paragraph to address those questions. That is one total paragraph, not three paragraphs. Also, if there are any other issues, please state them in one other paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Addendum to Moderator Note:

User:Bolgerb1953, User:MrOllie - Please reply within 24 hours, if, as stated, you do want to resolve the content dispute of how many articles there should be, and any other content disputes.

Robert McClenon (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

First Statements by Editors (Stakeholders)

These are two names for the same concept. The Investopedia definition cited on Stakeholder Capitalism is "a system in which corporations are oriented to serve the interests of all their stakeholders. Among the key stakeholders are customers, suppliers, employees, shareholders and local communities." Stakeholder theory is defined by our article as "a theory of organizational management and business ethics that accounts for multiple constituencies impacted by business entities like employees, suppliers, local communities, creditors, and others." - clearly the same thing. The citations covered are very similar, too: for example 'Capitalism' credits a publication by Klaus Schwab as the first reference to the concept, and so does 'theory'. Notably Bolgerb1953 wrote in an edit summary last week that Stakeholder Capitalism is "the more commonly used term today for the same concept." Per google books, 'Stakeholder theory' is clearly the common name, see ngrams].

The other issue as I see it is that Bolgerb1953's preferred version of the article is largely based on a new, more expansive definition of the concept that he wrote and has published through self published sources such as his 'Enterprise Engagement Alliance' and a Forbes contributor piece he is the coauthor of. I don't believe these are usable sources for Misplaced Pages, and I think we can't write about that version of Stakeholder Capitalism until it is picked up by the academic community at large and secondary, reliable academic sources become available. - MrOllie (talk) 15:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Second Statement by Moderator (Stakeholders)

Perhaps I need to explain why I say to be concise. The purpose of a statement is not to provide all of the facts to a moderator who will be acting as a judge and who will read the statements of facts in detail. I am not acting as a judge or arbitrator, and will not make any ultimate decisions as to article content. Any statement has at least two purposes. The first is to try to persuade the other editor or editors. An overly long statement is not likely to be read at great length, and it is likely to be ignored. See too long, didn't read. The other editors really may skip an overly long statement. The second purpose is to persuade the community. If moderated discussion fails, we will use a Request for Comments or some similar consensus process. Outside members of the community really may skip an overly long statement, and may be persuaded by a concise statement.

I said to provide a one-paragraph statement, and I meant one paragraph, not 1000 words. (But User:Bolgerb1953s statement is not "well below the 1,000 word limit". I didn't set a 1000-word limit, but MS Word counts 1012 words.) So I have a statement from User:MrOllie and do not have a concise statement from Bolgerb1953. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I had asked:

• 1. Are stakeholder capitalism and stakeholder theory two names for the same concept?
• 2. If yes, which is the preferred name?
• 3. If not, what is the difference, and do we need separate articles, or can we combine them into one article?
• 4. Are there any other content issues?

MrOllie says that they are two names for the same concept, and that the common name is Stakeholder Theory. If so, we only need one article, which is why he redirected one article to the other.

Bolgerb1953 says that Stakeholder Capitalism is the broad concept, and that Stakeholder Theory is a subset. He then gives analogies that seem to inflate the topic with grandiosity. No, there hasn't been as much written about stakeholder theory or stakeholder capitalism as there has about quantum mechanics or obstetrics, let alone about physics or medicine. And you don't need to make grandiose comparisons to explain what a subset-superset relationship is to a computer scientist. And if you mention quantum mechanics too many times, a lot of editors will move on to something else, because they find quantum mechanics incomprehensible, and they will be correct, because I have studied enough quantum mechanics to know that it really is incomprehensible.

So I will ask User:Bolgerb1953 to explain concisely what is meant by stakeholder capitalism and what is meant by stakeholder theory so that a fourth party can see how there is a subset-superset relationship (and what the other subsets are).

I am not the judge on a content issue, because the community is the judge; but it appears to me that only one article is needed, because the topics either are the same or are closely related, and the content is not enough to justify a split. If either editor disagrees, they can explain concisely how they disagree.

I will also ask both editors whether there are any other content issues that need to be discussed. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Second Statements by Editors (Stakeholders)

MrOllie

I don't have any other issues at present, but I suppose that could change if the articles end up being split or material gets added to the Stakeholder theory article. - MrOllie (talk) 17:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Bolgerb1953

Thanks. Again, I appreciate this as going through this process the best type of learning, so I appreciate your patience and that of Mr. Ollie. I got the word count limit from the Misplaced Pages instructions I read, and assumed that a debate of this nature would justify a thorough discussion of the facts along with links. (Your word count includes the many URL links I provided.)

So here is the simple answer:

Are stakeholder capitalism and stakeholder theory two names for the same concept?

No. Stakeholder Capitalism predates Stakeholder Theory by 10 years, and specifically includes the Environment, while Stakeholder Theory does not. Stakeholder Theory is one of many theories, in this case postulated by a single professor, among many other implementation processes for Stakeholder Capitalism. Others include ESG, Conscious Business, Inclusive Capitalism, Economics of Mutuality, Enterprise Engagement, etc., all of which merit and in some cases already have Misplaced Pages entries.

Stakeholder Capitalism, not Stakeholder Theory, was the term embraced by the Business Roundtable and the many links I cited, along with multiple recognized educational institutions that address Mr.Ollie's suggestion that we wait until academics focus on the issue. They have. The reason is because Stakeholder Capitalism is the umbrella term for many theories and approaches. While the two terms are related, I have found no citations using the two terms completely interchangeably.

• 2. If yes, which is the preferred name?
• 3. If not, what is the difference, and do we need separate articles, or can we combine them into one article?

Separate articles are required, as it would confuse the reader and do a disservice to the work of E. Freeman to combine them.

As stated, Stakeholder Theory is one of many theories and implementation processes for Stakeholder Capitalism. Each of these warrant their own entries in Misplaced Pages, just as do Direct Marketing, Advertising, Digital Marketing, etc. merit their own entries even though they are all part of marketing--to use a more prosaic example.

Based on the many links I have provided, anyone who reads those articles will be confused if led to a Misplaced Pages article on Stakeholder Theory that makes no mention of the broader movement, the related debate, and the issues related to the environment.

I cannot find one recent article in business or other media talking about Stakeholder Theory, while the article that was removed cited many talking about the broader subjet of Stakeholder Capitalism.

• 4. Are there any other content issues?

Not that I know of.

Bolgerb1953 (talk) 22:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Third Statement by Moderator (Stakeholder Theory)

When I said at the beginning to provide a one-paragraph statement, I didn't mean to read through instructions for other methods of dispute resolution and find a word limit that you preferred, such as 1000 words not counting links. I meant one paragraph, maybe no more than 150 words.

User:Bolgerb1953 has used 1000 words and now another 400 words to explain how they think that Stakeholder capitalism is a superset of Stakeholder theory. I will ask User:MrOllie to respond concisely, with no set word limit, if they want to disagree with what Bolgerb1953 has written so far. I will also state that I don't understand what the difference is. That is, I don't understand how Stakeholder capitalism is more inclusive than stakeholder theory, and I will again ask for definitions of what each of them is, no more than one paragraph (150 words each). The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article or articles, so that a reader, who doesn't read the sources, will understand what the topics are.

At this point, I will give the parties an idea of what I anticipate for how this dispute resolution will go. If Bolgerb1953 and MrOllie cannot agree on some resolution or compromise, and it appears that they probably will not agree, then I will have to ask the community to decide by means of a Request for Comments. I will remind them both that concise statements are usually more effective than thousand-word statements. So if the parties do not reach agreement, their ability to persuade other editors with strong concise reasoning will be decisive. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

User:Bolgerb1953 - Please define what stakeholder capitalism and stakeholder theory are in a way that other editors will agree as to the superset-subset relationship. Each definition may be no more than one paragraph. If you need to define other terms concisely to make the superset-subset relationship clear, you may define other terms.

User:MrOllie - You may (but are not required to) agree or disagree concisely with what Bolgerb1953 has written in the first and second statements, in particular focusing on your assertion that stakeholder capitalism and stakeholder theory are synonyms.

Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Third Statements by Editors (Stakeholder Theory)

Third Statement by MrOllie

Of course, there is much to disagree with. Bolgerb1953 writes above that I suggested that we wait until academics focus on the term 'stakeholder capitalism'. What I actually wrote is that we cannot include Bolgerb1953's self published definition until it is the subject of secondary academic sources, and I see no evidence has been presented that that has happened. Many of the links Bolgerb1953 are citing predate his definition, in fact. None are 'academic journals', despite his labelling them as such. Overall what we've got are a number of links that feature the words 'stakeholder' and 'capitalism' next to each other, but no reliable sources that show that this is a distinct topic from stakeholder theory, which is by far the more used term according to the ngram link I posted earlier. We still don't have a clear explanation of what the differences between these topics would actually be. I'll also note that Bolgerb1953 is now writing that this as yet undefined concept of 'stakeholder capitalism' predates stakeholder theory by 10 years, but as recently as last week he was writing that capitalism is a new term for the same concept that came into usage in 2019 - I still do not understand these discrepancies. What has changed? I also don't think his characterization of stakeholder theory as being the work of a single person in 1983 is accurate - that conflicts with the history section of our current article, which traces the concept to the 60s. - MrOllie (talk) 03:28, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I feel that Mr.Ollie continues to ignore the fundamental argument I am making and is instead looking for what he feels are inconsistencies in my argument and is relying on a word usage tool that does not correspond to what is found in actual Google search results.

1. Whether or not these academics were writing in academic journals, they are all academics writing about Stakeholder Capitalism in university sponsored publications and none make reference to Stakeholder Theory. A. This is indeed an academic journal: http://www.ieomsociety.org/ieom2020/papers/639.pdf B. If the editors don't feel the alternative definition we included is well substantiated, that's fine. But what needs to be noted is that there is no official definition for a term that is now being widely debated to describe the capitalism reform movement.

2. Rather than looking for what might be perceived as inconsistencies in statements I've made, it might be most useful to look at the facts. A. The concept of Stakeholder Capitalism that embraces people and the environment is the subject of heated debate in major media around the world with not one mention of the term Stakeholder Theory, which remains an arcane discipline for organizational management, along with many other theories. B. I have not found one current article in any media discussing Stakeholder Theory. C. The concept of Stakeholder Theory remains a debate among academics with almost no discussion at the popular level, while Stakeholder Capitalism has risen to the top of the agendas at multiple major organizations, from the Heritage Foundation on the right to the World Economic Forum, JUST Capital, Business Roundtable, Economics of Mutuality. D. If you wish to use Google as a source, do a search for the two terms. You will find practically no current references to Stakeholder Theory, and all of them from little known sources. A search for Stakeholder Capitalism yields dozens of current articles from major sources.

3. While many people have discussed the role of stakeholders, Mr. Freeman is widely credited with promoting the concept of Stakeholder Theory in his 1983 paper on the subject, which makes no reference to the environment because it's a theory for organizational management, not for the reform of capitalism.

4. The distinction is clear.

Stakeholder Capitalism is a movement to reform capitalism. The most recent book on Stakeholder Capitalism by Klaus Schwab clearly depicts it as a capitalism reform movement (not a process for organizational management) and makes no mention of Stakeholder Theory that I could find. See: https://books.google.com/books/about/Stakeholder_Capitalism.html?id=QdYPEAAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description

Stakeholder Theory is a process for organizational management.

To subsume the Stakeholder Capitalism reform movement under the rubric of a narrow arcane theory on organizational management will do nothing but confuse readers.

Bolgerb1953 (talk) 14:24, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Third Statement by Bolgerb1953

Stakeholder Capitalism is a reform movement founded in the early 1970s that seeks to improve capitalism by addressing not just the needs of shareholders, but of employees, customers, supply chain and distribution partners, and the environment. There are many different approaches to implementing Stakeholder Capitalism, including Stakeholder Theory (which does not include the environment), Conscious Capitalism, Inclusive Capitalism, ESG, Enterprise Engagement, Economics of Mutuality, and more. None of these others are included in Stakeholder Theory.

Stakeholder Theory, created in 1983, is, according to Misplaced Pages, "A theory of organizational management and business ethics that accounts for multiple constituencies impacted by business entities like employees, suppliers, local communities, creditors, and others." It is one of many methods for addressing people issues in organizations.

Based on the current usage of the term, they must be separate articles because people searching for Stakeholder Capitalism will be confused if directed to the Stakeholder Theory article.

Bolgerb1953 (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Back-and-Forth Discussion (Stakeholders)

Please note my reply is longer because it includes considerable substantiation but even with all the links is well below the 1,000 word limit.

1. Stakeholder Capitalism is the umbrella term for a wide variety of theories and processes advocated by different parties cited below. It’s first use can be traced to the early 1970s in the context not only of stakeholders but also the environment. A. Stakeholder Theory is to Stakeholder Capitalism what Quantum Mechanics is to Physics, not the other way around, as MrOllie has implied.

2. Stakeholder Theory is a concept developed by Edward Freeman, a professor at the University of Viginia in 1983 and is a subset of Stakeholder Capitalism. Mr. Freeman is certainly one of the pioneers in the concept of Stakeholder Capitalism, but his is only one of the many approaches to its definition and implementation. A. I confess to have made a sloppy edit on the Stakeholder Theory page that implied otherwise. My point was that many people are using Stakeholder Capitalism instead of Stakeholder Theory, as will be substantiated below, because it is the broader term inclusive of multiple approaches as well as the environment. C. Darden’s work is only just one of many constructs for Stakeholder Capitalism. Other processes include the concepts of Economics of Mutuality, Inclusive Capitalism, Conscious Capitalism, B Corporations, Enterprise Engagement, and ESG, to name a few. It should be noted that all of these organizations make reference to Stakeholder Capitalism in their communications, with little or no reference to Stakeholder Theory.

3. If usage is an important determination in Misplaced Pages, as it is in the world of dictionaries, the distinction between the two terms is further confirmed by a Google search. A search for Stakeholder Theory turns up mostly arcane or academic references to Mr. Freeman’s theory, mainly related to debates about his work. A. A search of Stakeholder Capitalism yields a wide variety of highly credible recent sources, include Fortune, Forbes, The Economist, New York Times, Financial Times, Harvard Law Work Life Forum, Heritage Foundation, not one of which even reference Stakeholder Theory, as cited below. B. In the past month alone, the concept of Stakeholder Capitalism has been written about and debated in authoritative business and academic journals without the existence of any formal definition in Dictionary.com, Merriam-Webster, or to our knowledge Oxford. How one defines the concept is critical to the nature of the debate, as one will see in reading the references below. B. This is why it is so important to discuss the definition that was removed from the Misplaced Pages article before the article was removed in its entirely. C. As the following links show, there is an enormous debate raging about Stakeholder Capitalism which can only be answered based on a clear definition that doesn’t currently exist. D. Furthermore, a review of these articles cited below in both popular business media and business journals in the past few months about Stakeholder Capitalism clearly shows that people would be confused if they were referred only to an article on Stakeholder Theory on Misplaced Pages, which doesn’t even make mention of the broader field of which it is a part.

E. Not one of the articles below about Stakeholder Capitalism in current media make any reference to Stakeholder Theory, because it is simply one of the approaches to implementing Stakeholder Capitalism; multiple articles will show the need for a clearer definition.

This article appeared in early Sept. in the National Review--it demonstrates how the definition one uses for the term determines whether Stakeholder Capitalism robs from shareholders to give to other stakeholders, as some of the right allege, or whether it's a means of creating wealth for everyone, as this advocate from the right agrees in this recent article: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/08/the-importance-of-stakeholders-to-profit/

• https://www.ketchum.com/stakeholder-capitalism-is-back-is-your-next-earnings-call-ready/

• https://www.linkedin.com/posts/yale-center-for-customer-insights_yale-professor-ravi-dhar-on-stakeholder-capitalism-activity-6837051981085859840-ka9S

• https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/stakeholder-capitalism-is-a-trojan

• https://www.aesc.org/insights/magazine/article/shifting-stakeholder-capitalism

• https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/stakeholder-capitalism-is-here-to-stay-2021-08-24

• https://www.gcu.edu/blog/business-management/10-stakeholder-capitalism-examples

• https://www.wsj.com/articles/stakeholder-capitalism-esg-business-roundtable-diversity-and-inclusion-green-washing-11629313759

• https://fortune.com/2021/08/18/stakeholder-capitalism-business-roundtable-corporate-purpose-just-capital/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=ceo-daily&utm_content=2021081812pm&tpcc=nlceodaily

• https://www.ft.com/content/be140b1b-2249-4dd9-859c-3f8f12ce6036

• https://fortune.com/2021/08/18/stakeholder-capitalism-business-roundtable-corporate-purpose-just-capital/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=ceo-daily&utm_content=2021081812pm&tpcc=nlceodaily

In addition to the academic articles cited above, the following papers have appeared in multiple academic journals in the US, Great Britain, Australia, Singapore, etc.

A. Oxford: https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2021/05/what-stakeholder-capitalism-can-learn-jensen-and-meckling B. New York University: https://www.stern.nyu.edu/experience-stern/faculty-research/how-make-stakeholder-capitalism-work C. This same article appeared in a Stanford University publication earlier this year: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/how_to_make_stakeholder_capitalism_work D. London School of Economics: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2020/02/06/employees-the-missing-link-between-stakeholder-capitalisms-pledges-and-metrics/ E. Singapore University: https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/stakeholder-capitalism-is-having-its-day-in-the-sun F. Amrita School of Arts and Sciences, Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham: Amritapuri, India.http://www.ieomsociety.org/ieom2020/papers/639.pdf G. The University of Sydney, Australia: https://www.sydney.edu.au/science/news-and-events/events/iagnzgs2021-conference/stakeholder-capitalism.html

4. Given that the debate over Stakeholder Capitalism clearly cannot be resolved without a proper definition, it is completely appropriate to cite a Forbes article (not a blog) co-authored by a professor of finance at the London Business School, with whom I have no financial or other connection for that matter, and for which I was not paid. A. Edmans has done considerable work in this domain, and has been published in the Harvard Business Review, Harvard Law School Governance Journal, and is author of Growing the Pie. See these links to his work. https://hbr.org/2016/03/28-years-of-stock-market-data-shows-a-link-between-employee-satisfaction-and-long-term-value. https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2020/12/03/the-edmans-bebchuk-debate-on-stakeholder-capitalism-the-case-for-and-the-case-against/ https://www.growthepie.net/ C. An article by Mr. Edmans published just yesterday in the University of Chicago Stigler School of Business publication on the topic of Stakeholder Capitalism contains no reference to Stakeholder Theory. https://promarket.org/2021/09/07/business-roundtable-shareholder-capitalism-promise/?utm_source=linkedin&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=linkedin-stigler-business-roundtable-shareholder-capitalism-promise D. As the articles above demonstrate, the concept of Stakeholder Capitalism has been raised at Harvard Law School, Yale, and the Stiglitz Business School at the University of Chicago.

In summary, Stakeholder Theory is a subset for the overall concept of Stakeholder Capitalism, because: • The use of the term Stakeholder Capitalism predates the work of Mr. Freeman by 10 years or more and also includes the environment and multiple implementation approaches. • Stakeholder Theory is only one implementation approach for Stakeholder Capitalism, many of which already also have entries in Misplaced Pages. Stakeholder Theory is appropriately mentioned as one of those theories in the Stakeholder Capitalism article Mr. Ollie removed. There is no reference to Stakeholder Capitalism on the Stakeholder Theory page, which is why I attempted to make that edit. • It is a fact that the definition of the term Stakeholder Capitalism is still in question, that the nature of the definition has a major bearing on the debate, and that Professor Edmans is a highly credible authority to propose a definition more consistent with the term “capitalism” than others that seem to apply it’s a “trojan horse” for socialism. • Nonetheless, the article removed by Mr.Ollie accurately depicted both sides of the debate, and so the two definitions should be restored along with the article as there is no final definition anywhere.

Thanks for your consideration.

Bolgerb1953 (talk) 17:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Fourth Statement by Moderator (Stakeholder Theory)

I have prepared a draft RFC which, if you cannot reach agreement, will be published and will resolve the dispute. You are welcome to comment on the draft RFC, and to propose any changes to the RFC. However, I retain neutral control of the content of the RFC until it is published, by moving it to the main article talk page, at which point other editors will respond, including some who will be invited by a bot to participate. An RFC normally runs for 30 days, after which time it will be closed by an uninvolved neutral editor.

Both editors - You may make any brief comments about the RFC. You are also welcome to offer any sort of compromise.

User:Bolgerb1953 - Please edit Talk:Stakeholder Theory/RFC Draft to insert the explanation that you have given of the superset-subset relationship in the subsection headed Explanation of Subset-Superset Relationship.

User:MrOllie - As before: You may (but are not required to) agree or disagree concisely with what Bolgerb1953 has written in the first and second statements, in particular focusing on your assertion that stakeholder capitalism and stakeholder theory are synonyms.

Fourth Statements by Editors (Stakeholder Theory)

Fourth Statement by MrOllie

I was under the impression that RFC statements are supposed to be neutral - it would seem that asking one party to embed their argument for an article split in the RFC statement itself couldn't possibly be neutral. I would suggest that only the ABCD options be listed, without the ' as explained in the subsection below'. Bolgerb1953 can add his arguments in the Survey section where they belong. - MrOllie (talk) 14:13, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Fourth Statement by Bolgerb1953

Fifth Statement by Moderator (Stakeholder Theory)

User:MrOllie - Your point about neutrality is well-taken. I don't want to allow a two-paragraph explanation in the Survey section, so I will expand the section including the statement on the superset-subset relationship to be a section, above the Survey, for brief statements in support of each option. Then you will be able to make a brief statement in support of Option A (assuming that that is what you wish).

The RFC will be started in 24 to 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Fifth Statements by Editors (Stakeholder Theory)

Fifth Statement by MrOllie

Fifth Statement by Bolgerb1953

Sixth Statement by Moderator (Stakeholder Theory)

The RFC is now running at Talk:Stakeholder theory. If there are no further issues identified, I will close this DRN thread. The RFC will run for 30 days, after which time it will be closed by an uninvolved editor. User:Bolgerb1953, User:MrOllie - You should make your brief statements in the Survey. Do not respond to each other's statements in the Survey. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Sixth Statements by Editors (Stakeholder Theory)

Sixth Statement by MrOllie

Sixth Statement by Bolgerb1953

Pentagon UFO videos

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Pentagon UFO videos (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Deathlibrarian (talk · contribs)
• MrOllie (talk · contribs)
• LuckyLouie (talk · contribs)
• JoJo Anthrax (talk · contribs)
• Hob Gadling (talk · contribs)
• Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is a disagreement over the inclusion of a statement that counters the proposal that "radar spoofing" is an explanation for Unexplained Aerial Phenomena. I regard the statement as a valid inclusion, various other editors do not.

• Inserted by deathlibrarianDif for insertion
• Removal by Mr Ollie

The proposal that Radar spoofing is an explanation for UAPs was added to the article. In line with WP:BAL/WP:NPOV I added the counter argument (that is, if the same incident is also seen by human eyes then Radar spoofing is not an explanation). This was deleted from the article. This was the statement I had added, it was later removed:

However, the ODNI report noted that most of the UAPs reported probably do represent physical objects, and so couldn't be radar spoofing, as they were detected by "multiple sensors" and "visual observation".

Full quote from the ODNI report that supports the inclusion: "Most of the UAP reported probably do represent physical objects given that a majority of UAP were registered across multiple sensors, to include radar, infrared, electro-optical, weapon seekers, and visual observation."

I have tried to get some compromise on wording here via WP:BRD and discussion on the talk page, but I have had no luck.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Pentagon_UFO_videos#Issues_with_NPOV_on_this_page, posted to 3o where it was discussed but the third opinion editor disqualified themself

@Deathlibrarian: That's not exactly what happened over on WP:3O. 3O is only to be used “If no agreement can be reached on the talk page and only two editors are involved” Given how many editors have already opined on this, and how many you listed above, 3O is obviously not the proper venue. So, I removed your request from 3O, I didn't disqualify self. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) 10:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi - Psiĥedelisto a bit of confusion - I was referring to something else - The 30 was posted previously (before you saw it) and kindly picked up by Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk · contribs) to give his opinion, but he then disqualified himself as he had some minor involvement on the page. I reposted it and then you (correctly) took it off. Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:08, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

If a neutral person could look at the suggested inclusion, in it's context and decide if it is a suitable.

Summary of dispute by MrOllie

I don't think this process can really help with this dispute - Deathlibrarian has started a couple RFCs on related POV issues at the article (one of which is currently ongoing), and they have failed to find support from the wider community. I don't think we need more of the same at another venue. - MrOllie (talk) 18:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle:, Deathlibrarian's selective quote above is leaving out some rather important information. Here's the very next sentence of that same source: "In a limited number of incidents, UAP reportedly appeared to exhibit unusual flight characteristics. These observations could be the result of sensor errors, spoofing, or observer misperception and require additional rigorous analysis." - MrOllie (talk) 11:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by LuckyLouie

This may not be appropriate for DR. Deathlibrarian does not appear to understand that edits like this are classic WP:SYNTHESIS. It is possible they have an inability to grasp editorial policies, or there is some cognitive issue, since they often insert text into articles twice, typically in two different places (note they have added a summary header for my username twice to this DR entry). - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The template automatically generates these summary headers- Deathlibrarian had nothing to do with that, and I'm not sure why it put you twice instead of Pyrrho, but I'll fix that momentarily. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:21, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by JoJo Anthrax

The filer's desired contributions at Pentagon UFO videos, including the contribution being evaluated here, are WP:SYNTH and WP:OR attempts to weaken a mundane explanation of UFO sightings, and in so doing add/enhance a pro-fringe, pro-pseudoscience POV. Other relevant policies and guidelines include WP:NPOV, WP:DUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:FALSEBALANCE, and WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 17:44, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Hob Gadling

Summary of dispute by Pyrrho the Skeptic

While I agree with the consensus on the issue, I will reiterate my statement from the Talk Page discussion, which is that the paragraph in question would be better with the first sentence only, to give proper balance to the statement before it that it is meant to refute. That way, it gets the point across without needlessly going into the details of one magazine article author's interpretation. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 15:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Pentagon UFO videos discussion

First statement by Mediator

I will try to act as the moderator. Read the ground rules. Each of you are responsible for complying with the rules. If you do not comply with the rules, I will fail the discussion. I will try to be neutral, but if one editor complies with the rules and the other does not, I will stop being neutral. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements are not helpful. They may permit the poster to feel better, but they often do not clarify the issues, except to establish having a strong opinion. Civility is required everywhere in Misplaced Pages, and especially in dispute resolution. The purpose of discussion is to improve the article or articles, and so should be focused on the encyclopedia. So discuss content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors. Comments that get into personalities will be collapsed. Also, do not reply to each other or engage in back-and-forth, except in the space that I provide for you (where back-and-forth can be ignored). Address your answers to me, as the representative of the community, not to each other.

Before we begin- I would ask that each editor fill out their summary section above- keeping in mind that long walls of text are difficult to read and process, and also keeping discussion on content, not on the editors.

Also, could @Deathlibrarian: please link and/or quote the specific text that they feel supports their statement? Just to be sure we don't have a case of synth going on. Not every involved editor must agree to participate for this to continue- but we do need a majority of involved editors participating in order to have a productive session. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks very much for taking this on Nightenbelle, I've added the deleted inclusion in the overview section, in italics. Deathlibrarian (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear- I want you to copy and paste the exact quote from the source that supports the inclusion- I do not want to have to read the entire 9 page legalese document to find it. Please help me out with that. Also- is there an rfc currently open on this topic? Nightenbelle (talk) 04:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, that was my fault, I misinterpreted your request - I've posted the exact quote in the overview, in italics, sourced from page 3 of the ODNI report. There's no RFC about this topic, just the third opinion which was closed because the number of editors involved exceeded 3. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

2nd statement by mediator

Unfortunately there is a very clear consensus here against including the statement- and your source does not directly support your desired statement. It requires some synthesis to get to your statement deathlibrarian- so unless you can find a reliable source that directly states what you are trying to include- the DRN will be closed in 24 hours and the consensus against will have to stand. I’m sorry. Nightenbelle (talk) 23:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at this Nightenbelle, your time here is appreciated. I've spent enough time on it already, so at this point I'm happy for it to be closed.Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

1. Office of the Director of National Intelligence (25 June 2021). Preliminary Assessment: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena. Office of the Director of National Intelligence. p. 3.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: year (link)

God in Islam

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• God in Islam (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• VenusFeuerFalle (talk · contribs)
• ParthikS8 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a dispute between me and the user @VenusFeuerFalle: about a sentence in the article of "God in Islam" in a specific section titled "Comparative theology".

The sentence in question is: "In contrast to the absolute monotheism of Islam, Hinduism is characterized by polytheism and the philosophy of pantheism, which means everything is God or part of Him."

Here is what the sources say: "In contrast to the absolute monotheism of the major Western religions represented by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Hinduism is characterized by polytheism and pantheism."

• Yong Choon Kim (1981). Oriental Thought: An Introduction to the Philosophical and Religious Thought of Asia. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 7. ISBN 9780822603658.

"Hinduism is commonly perceived as a polytheistic religion. Indeed, most Hindus profess belief in multiple deities. While some Hindus believe in the existence of three deities, some believe in thousands of deities, and some others in 330 million deities. This is because of the common Hindu belief in the philosophy of Pantheism. Pantheism considers everything, living and nonliving, to be divine and sacred. The common Hindu, therefore, considers everything as a deity. He considers the trees, the sun, the moon, the monkey, the cow, the snake and even human beings as separate deities."

• Ali Ünal; Harun Gultekin (2013). The Prophet Promised in World Scriptures. Tughra Books. p. 253. ISBN 9781597848237.

I only have two questions:

1. Are these sources reliable or not?
2. Are these sources cover/support the added content or not?

Thanks in advance and sorry for the inconvenience.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:God_in_Islam#Please_be_careful_with_sources

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

If a neutral person could look at the suggested inclusion, in it's context and decide if it is a suitable.

Summary of dispute by VenusFeuerFalle

Summary of dispute by ParthikS8

Before I begin, just a note that TheEagle107 needs to put his name in the users involved section, as it is primarily a dispute between him and the other editor, as he said. They are disputing inclusion of those two sentences, with TheEagle107 arguing the sources provided are suitable so those sentences should be included and VenusFeuerFalle arguing they aren't. I haven't been involved in this dispute until now, though I did add my comment to a similar dispute between the two users on another set of issues relating to that page.

My own view is that there are questions as to whether the two sentences are relevant to the topic of that section of the article, whether a sweeping generalisation is being made, whether an opinion-as-fact claim is being made, why the statements do not attribute these views to the authors and lastly questions upon the neutrality of the second source. I do not contest reliability or that the sources (at least the first), covers those sentences.

So I do not support the inclusion of the two sentences highlighted by TheEagle107 in their current wording with these sources and do not understand why they are relevant to the article. ParthikS8 (talk) 13:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

God in Islam discussion

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors. The filing editor must notify the other editors on their user talk pages. Also, if the principal issue is the reliability of certain sources, the Reliable Source Noticeboard can answer the question. Since a dispute can only be considered in one place at a time, this thread can be either withdrawn or put on hold if an inquiry is open at the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:28, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I have notified the other editors on their user talk pages.--TheEagle107 (talk) 13:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I am not sure, is this dispute resolved now? My opinnion is not this section needs to be removed, but maybe it is better to remove this. My point is also not to object that Pantheism and Polytheism exists in India (as the reliable source by "Yong Choon Kim" states, but that "Ali Ünal" states. Since the author is associated with the Gülen Movement and not a qualified researcher on religion, culture or anthropology, I objected his reliability. my main objection however comes from the author's arguement equating pantheism and polytheism, stating that Hinduism's pantheist would lead to the conclusion every natural asset or animal would be a god. This is just untrue. Also these sources do not investigate the relationship between Hinduism and Islam in reality, but assert an opinnion from the point of view of an Islam scholar (what Muslims should believe according to the author's opinnion). I am not sure, if the entire section needs to be removed, since there have been some reliable source talking about comparing God in Islam with, for example Judaism.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Metamorphosis (manga):

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Metamorphosis (manga) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 4meter4 (talk · contribs)
• Link20XX (talk · contribs)
• Elli (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The main concern is the use of this YouTube video as a source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SD9-4pUPH0 One side of the debate wants to use the source for it value as a form of critical analysis

On the other side of the argument, objections have been raised concerning the suitability of YouTube as a reference per WP:YOUTUBE, and also WP:COI concerns as the YOUTUBE page being linked to includes marketing merchandise for sale and requests for donated money which would appear to be a financial col issue.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Metamorphosis (manga)#YouTube ref

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Input from a neutral observer would be useful; particularly an editor familiar with policy issues related to COI and the use of YOUTUBE within Misplaced Pages.

Summary of dispute by Link20XX

I admit that I don't usually like to get involved in disputes like this, but I guess I will here. While I generally don't believe YouTube should be used as a source (see the recent AfD for my thoughts on that), but this is a direct interview. As per WP:SOCIALMEDIA, self-published sources of this type are generally okay, and Template:Cite YouTube exists for a reason. The only point I have seen raised against it is WP:ELNO, which as per WP:ELPOINTS #1 doesn't apply here. Link20XX (talk) 00:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Elli

I don't really see the point of this filing. ELNO doesn't apply here - this isn't being used as part of an "external links" section. We allow all sorts of references to contain advertising as long as it is reliable for the information being referenced. If this was used as a review of the work, it would be reasonable to make the argument that a financial incentive would bias the review, but this is solely used for the creator's own commentary on their work, something that self-published sources are explicitly allowed for. Unless we think that this interview is entirely fabricated - which is clearly not the case - then I don't see why it wouldn't be an acceptable source here. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Metamorphosis (manga): discussion

• Volunteer Note - The discussion at the article talk page has been inadequate. There has been one comment by each editor. As the Third Opinion volunteer said, resume discussion at the article talk page. I will leave this request alone for 24 to 48 hours to allow discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Daniel Martyn

Closed as resolved by agreement that the article in question should be nominated for deletion. The deletion discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Daniel Martyn. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Social Democracy

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Social Democracy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Twozerooz (talk · contribs)
• Czello (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A prior consensus (minus 1 user) was reached on the second sentence of the preamble, specifically that its economic ideology is a capitalist mixed economy, not socialism.

This dispute now is over the very first sentence which states the exact opposite (that it is socialism). The first sentence is directly contradictory to the second sentence.

I believe we need clarification on 3 points: 1) That Economic Ideology and Economic Philosophy are synonyms, and are not different. 2) The first sentence directly contradicts the second sentence. 3) Since the second sentence is not in question, the first sentence should be changed to match the second.

Unfortunately most of the talk page with this issue has been archived. Let me know if I need to provide relevant archived discussions or any other additional information.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarify the 3 points listed

Summary of dispute by Czello

I am surprised this post was made -- Twozerooz, I thought we agreed that an RfC was the best way to resolve this issue?

However, my summary of the issue is simply that there was no consensus to remove "economic philosophy" from the opening sentence, and Erzan was in discussion with OP about this issue, before OP stopped responding. As the the text remained for the next few months, I assumed the issue was resolved -- until OP chose to remove the text again by deceptively labelling it as vandalism.

All I want is for OP to pursue a consensus on the talk page rather than edit warring (something he has been reported to WP:EWN twice for, the second time resulting in a block). This is why I suggested an RfC, and OP agreed to this. Why we've come here instead is rather bizarre. — Czello 15:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Just for clarification Czello: The first sentence was never discussed. But given that the second sentence now has consensus, it seems to follow that the first sentence was simply omitted by error. I think much of the confusion here is in regards to different synonyms being used, so as long as nobody has an issue with it I will make an edit to use the same term for both sentences, then we will go from there. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

It has been like this for almost half a year. 'Economic ideology' and 'economic philosophy' mean the same thing. The reader will be taken to the same page, which is economic ideology so there is no confusion. Erzan (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Social Democracy discussion

• Volunteer Note -While some precedent does seem to have been put forth roughly five months ago on the talk page, the discussion between the two parties mentioned here has been very short. Additionally, User:Czello has not been notified on their talk page. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page seems to be agreeing that a Request for Comments is the best way to resolve the questions. An issue should not be discussed in two or more places at the same time, and an RFC takes precedence over discussion at a noticeboard. If the editors want assistance in formulating a neutrally worded RFC, they can request that here. Are the editors requesting moderated discussion (in place of or prior to an RFC), or do they plan on using an RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• Sorry wasn't aware there was different processes. I haven't initiated any other process yet, so please let me know whether I should do that or any other actions. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yes, I'm rather confused as to why this post was made after OP agreed an RfC is the best way forward. Given that the original talk page thread had several different discussions going on at once, I think an RfC makes the topic of contention much clearer. I would urge Twozerooz to pursue that route as agreed. — Czello 15:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Twozerooz: The best thing to do is follow the instructions here. As a suggestion for a neutrally-worded question for the RfC, I recommend Should "economic philosophy" be removed from the opening sentence?". — Czello 15:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Reading the processes, it does actually seem like a dispute resolution is more appropriate given that this is not actually a conflict regarding subject matter. The issue now isn't related to economics at all, but rather just confusion over synonyms and logical contradictions. Any unbiased party should be able to rectify this, regardless of their level of knowledge in economics. An RFC would have been very useful during the first dispute over the second sentence, but that has been resolved already --Twozerooz (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You know what, I concede. I have no interest in arguing this further. I didn't feel strongly enough the matter the first time round, and it looks like it's just becoming a new edit war -- which is the very thing I was trying to prevent. Erzan appears to have returned this debate, so I'll leave it to him. Although what, that was before I saw this. It appears consensus may in fact be leaning to leaving it in. — Czello 17:40, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution noticeboard
• Misplaced Pages noticeboards