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Block appeal : Copper1993

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was recently pinged into a discussion by Copper1993 (talk · contribs), who has been blocked as a sockpuppet of HordeFTL. I've checked through the history of the SPI and I'm a little confused to what the actual disruption is beyond the original AfD votestacking in 2018. There seems to be some sort of kerfuffle involving Broomhead Reservoir, which I've rewritten this evening using a couple of news and book sources, which should hopefully put a lid on that.

Anyway, Copper1993 is asking for an amnesty and an unblock, which I am considering, and has been supported by Crouch, Swale. I think my basic problem is a number of the articles they've created have been quite stubby, often only including a few sources, which means somebody else has to do the work of beefing them up to an acceptable standard. Still, it's never been policy to just delete stubs for being stubs unless they're permastubs, and I think in a couple of cases mentioned in the SPI, somebody should have taken the articles to AfD just to see where consensus lies. Ultimately I come back to the tired old phrase we are here to write an encyclopedia. Anyway, your thoughts please. Ritchie333 21:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support but with 1 account restriction which should resolve the AFD issues in 2018. Possibly there should be a restriction on page creation to ensure that the articles are less stubby. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
• Meh. I endorsed a block in my capacity as a SPI clerk, but I wasn't all that enthused about it. They're evading an indefinite block, but they're obviously not the usual spammer, vandal or POV pusher who shows up at SPI. I'd gladly support an unblock if they were able to stick to the terms of the standard offer. My main problem is that their track record doesn't give me a lot of confidence that they're being honest or that any sort of restriction will actually be followed. For example, on their previous account, they said they'd be willing to take the standard offer , but just a month later, they were back to evading their block with the Copper1993 account. Or see this unblock request, where they made statements similar to what they're saying now about how they made a terrible mistake that they regret deeply and won't repeat ... but then proceeded to create 6 more sockpuppets in the following week . If they are serious about having changed this time, it shouldn't be difficult for them to take a few months off of editing (during which they could edit other projects such as simplewiki) to regain the community's trust. Spicy (talk) 22:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

"They're evading an indefinite block, but they're obviously not the usual spammer, vandal or POV pusher who shows up at SPI." Yeah, that's kind of my thoughts really. But given the conversations on some of the sock's talk pages, you could be forgiven for walking away with the impression that the admin corps think he's the son of IceWhiz. Haven't people over-reacted a bit? Ritchie333 22:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose largely for the reasons Spicy has misgivings. They're an admitted sock of HordeFTL, they claim they started socking because they just didn't know the rules (and then kept going for years because ...?), and they have a long history of breaking their word when promising to follow those rules. See for example the heartfelt pleas at User talk:StaniforthHistorian, which were followed by yet more socking. Sure they're a slight cut above a "lol your mom" vandal but their track record (including sock blocks from this very week) suggests a total lack of interest in one of the basic en-WP policies. It'd be better if they actually stop socking for a few months and then reapply, rather than seeking an unblock just days after their latest secret sock is exposed.

In passing, Blablubbs seems to have a point re WP:3X, an unblock here probably cannot be a unilateral action and would require community input (which of course it is getting). Some CU advice would also be valuable as this is effectively an unblock request by the CU-blocked sockmaster themselves. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't see how we can unblock a sockmaster who has a slew of puppets over years without waiting at least six months without socking. Instead right after the latest sock is blocked, they request an unblock. Additionally, as I read the SPI, there was some IP block evasion as well.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose At this time I have no confidence that they will stick to one account. Let's see if they can go six months without socking. Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:02, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose until and unless their behavior is exemplary for at least six months. Someone who repeatedly deceives the community needs to show the best possible behavior before requesting an unblock. Being slightly less disruptive than the usual trolling sockmaster is not really a ringing endorsement. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:22, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as they haven't even waited 6 months (per WP:SO) to make an appeal. They should also consider contributing to other Wikimedia projects while blocked to demonstrate that they are still capable of making constructive edits. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• We're here to build an encyclopedia, but without those who persistently disregard its central policies and community decisions. The last block evasion occurred on 25 October 2021; it's 28 October 2021. There are two paths: Sockpuppetry and hoping not to get caught, or accepting Misplaced Pages's procedures and filing an appeal. Sockpuppetry and filing an appeal are incompatible. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

67.53.214.86 and WP:BLP

67.53.214.86 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is an IP editor who since 2018 appears to have been adding information to WP:BLPs that is sourced to hard to assess sources (typically in Russian/Ukrainian), and often with concerning BLP implications. I first noticed their edits when they added a section to an article stating that the subject "was a close friend of the alcoholic Valery... the son of... who was a close friend of". Aside from the trivial nature of the information and apparent attempt at ?guilt by association?, the references were either in Russian, or did not mention the article subject. Going to the user's Talk: page, I noticed that the page is littered with warnings about WP:BLP violations, WP:COPYVIO violations, WP:RS and WP:V violations, failed WP:AFC requests, and automated bot reversion notices. I tried to review a number of their recent article additions; some were obviously problematic, but others were difficult for me to assess. I think that this editor's contributions to Misplaced Pages should be reviewed, and further contributions discouraged. Jayjg 18:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I also see that some of the references they add are not reliable sources, such as compromat.ru for example, and many I have never heard about but at the first glance do not look reliable.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, it's been going on for years, and I don't see any responses on the Talk: page yet. This is a serious matter, as it has WP:BLP implications, and the damage is too complex to easily assess. They've already been blocked once for a month; unless there are any objections, I plan to block the user until they start communicating. Jayjg 20:36, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

OK, seeing as there are no objections, I've blocked for 3 months. Either they will try communicating, or ride out the block, or get a new IP address. Time will tell. Jayjg 20:19, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Request closure review of RfC discussion on deprecating The Daily Wire as a source

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am not involved in this RfC, but editors have expressed a desire for administrative review of S_Marshall's closure of the RfC and in the interest of speedy process, I am writing this post on the behalf of those editors. MarshallKe (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I took a quick look; my first thought it I'd like 2 other admins to work with me on a joint close. Any takers? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Bit premature perhaps, Roy? Should really come to a consensus to overturn my close before you appoint a panel of replacements.—S Marshall T/C 00:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe "close" was the wrong word. What I meant was a panel of three people to do a review. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, you're eminently qualified to do that, and I'd welcome it. We really ought to have an orderly RFC review forum.—S Marshall T/C 00:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm, this has taken an odd turn that I didn't expect. My original thought was that it's always good to have multiple people doing a review (like what happens at WP:DRV). I'm going to step back on this one and let somebody else handle it. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

You literally told people to come here if they disputed it, and now you're trying to affect the review process - David Gerard (talk) 11:21, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

You did a non-admin close on a contentious RFC when an admin usually does the job, and it turned out to be disputed. Yes, the RFC needs a proper admin close - David Gerard (talk) 11:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:RSN had a long-running and quite contentious RFC on deprecating the Daily Wire. As it came up to a month, S Marshall came in and did a non-admin close. However, a number of editors, including the editor who filed the RFC, think that the close is distinctly at odds with how deprecation RFCs have been handled in the past, and reflects neither consensus, nor the argued guidelines and policy. (Disputes like this of deprecation RFC closes basically never happen.) S Marshall suggested we ask WP:AN for an independent admin close. I suspect we might need more than one - it was quite contentious, and multiple opinions would be stronger. Are there two or three uninvolved admins who've done deprecation closes who could give their assessment of the close in RSN? - David Gerard (talk) 11:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@David Gerard isn't this a duplicate of the above section? -- Asartea 11:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes. I've removed the header and converted it to an anchor for historic use. Primefac (talk) 11:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

My error, sorry, it is! Don't know how I failed to notice that ... - David Gerard (talk) 11:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

David, that isn't the only error you've made about this. You've also suggested that contentious RfCs should be closed by admins, and that's not the case at all. In fact I have a long history of closing this stuff, and although I've been overturned from time to time, it's usually the case that the community endorses my closes. And you've accused me of trying to affect the close review process, when all I did was agree to RoySmith's proposal. That's not just wrong, it's rather hurtful. I'm here in good faith to do my best for the community in line with the policies and procedures that we've agreed.—S Marshall T/C 11:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

You're literally doing precisely that above in this very section, trying to affect an admin review of your actions. You dived into the RFC thinking you were being sincerely helpful, and ended up with a strongly contested close of a contentious RFC. I suggest you consider that your move may have been badly in error, and that proper review without you trying to interfere in the process may be appropriate - David Gerard (talk) 12:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I guess I'll say the same thing SM did so it's not just him... IMO it is a slight bit rude to plan a 3-admin panel close before there's even a determination that this close was wrong. There's nothing unusual or improper about non-admins closing discussions that don't require admin tools to implement the outcomes. Whether the closer was an admin or not is hardly pertinent to the issue at hand. Reading and reviewing a discussion takes time. It's not a good idea to start overturning closes without proper consideration; the effect will just be that non-admin editors don't wish to spend time reviewing discussions for closure, which itself is a good thing given how large WP:RFCL / WP:RM / etc backlogs can get. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• I do not believe for a moment that I'm badly in error. My position is that it's entirely in order for me to participate in this review of my actions, and it's entirely out of order for David Gerard to frame that participation as "interfering".—S Marshall T/C 13:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  I, too, am 100% correct all of the time. It is so frustrating when others don't understand that, isn't it? But seriously, as someone with no dog in this fight, it does look a bit like you're trying to put your thumb on the scale. Let the other side be wrong on their own for a little bit. MrOllie (talk) 13:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Really?!—S Marshall T/C 13:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

What is the case for overturning here? I think S Marshall did a careful and considerate job closing the discussion. By numbers alone this was not a clear consensus. Like many editors, I consider 2/3rd to be the general clear consensus when numbers are the only question. By the arguments both sides made policy based arguments and provided references for the position. It's also important to note that the discussion wasn't "Is DW reliable vs not". It was only should a source that is seen as non-reliable be further downgraded into deprecate. The close of "consensus it isn't reliable, no consensus to deprecate" was fair. Disclaimer: in the RfC I supported status quo. Springee (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• User:Levivich’s close of this close review is unimpressive. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Challenge of RSN closure of RFC on Daily Wire

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: The Daily Wire

To satisfy the request that a close review actually challenge the close, I challenge the close of the RFC at WP:RSN on The Daily Wire. The reasoning provided in the close offers nothing resembling my reading of WP:CON, in which the rationale applies arbitrary numerical multipliers to arguments and comes up with a percentage that is then, again arbitrarily, weighed against a scale that is determined by this one user. The slightly greater weight to those who introduced new thoughts is particularly concerning, as weight of an argument depends on its fidelity to our policies, and not on how novel it is. Also, I find the above closure to be a fairly blatant failure of WP:NOTBURO, the close was clearly challenged and the challenge should have been heard without the pedantry. nableezy - 15:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Closer: I think there are good reasons why a discussion closer should assign weight to !votes, and I think that in cases like this the closer does have to assess what the numerical threshold of consensus might be. I could be wrong in my weighting or in my decision about where the threshold lies, but I don't see anything wrong with my process. I should clarify that I did not find that any !votes had greater fidelity to our policies because we don't have a policy on deprecation. What we have is WP:DEPS, and it isn't even a guideline.—S Marshall T/C 17:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse close I will repeat part of what I said in the post close discussion at RSN "I did not participate in this one. Having read it through, it looks like a reasonable close." A decision had to made between status quo and deprecate after a lengthy RFC of opposing views. If the only argument against the close is the math assigned to "voting", that imo is insufficient reason to overturn.Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• (comment from involved editor) I agree that S Marshall's algorithm for weighing arguments is of questionable soundness (for example, the upweighting of "new thoughts"), but I think he reached the same conclusion that any other reasonable closer would have. (Also, worth mentioning that this calculus of weighing arguments was not part of his actual formal closing statement, but rather came up in a later follow-up discussion.) David Gerard repeatedly characterizes supporters of deprecation as constituting a "supermajority" or "strong majority". The actual headcount appears to be 29 to 19 (i.e. 60% in favour), which I would characterize as a fairly narrow majority. Per WP:DEFINECONSENSUS, An option that is narrowly preferred is almost never consensus. Also, for example, the essay WP:ACD gives the following rule of thumb: As a very rough guideline, no consensus results are usually in the range of 30–70 per cent, and the closer you are to the boundaries, the more the strength of the arguments becomes relevant. The only way there could be a finding of consensus in a case like this would be if one side's arguments had a significantly stronger policy basis, which I don't see here. Colin M (talk) 18:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  At least in the other place where filibustering rules the day, 60% is routinely called a supermajority. nableezy - 19:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  It can apparently commonly range anywhere from 55% to 75% (see Supermajority § Common supermajorities). Given that it has no fixed definition, and different readers might identify it with a wide range of different thresholds (or simply interpret it as "really big majority"), its use is liable to cause confusion. Colin M (talk) 19:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Challenging the close. S Marshall seems to want to be helpful, and that's great; but this was not helpful. He then tried to determine how his actions would be reviewed, which compounded his evident non-optimal judgement in this case. The close should be run again with a panel of admins. If he's that confident it was the correct decision, then it'll come out the same way - David Gerard (talk) 19:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Surely that argument can be applied to any close. "Why don't you revert your close? If it was truly the right close, a panel will come along and close it exactly the same way." Obviously there needs to be a certain finality to closes, unless they are clearly an incorrect reading due to a substantive reason, otherwise any unsatisfied editor could request discussions be reclosed for no real reason, and then closers would be unwilling to spend their time closing discussions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  I don't understand why this discussion needs either a panel, there was a large number of participants but not so many that it couldn't be fairly assessed by a single close, or an admin close, RfCs of this type are regularly closed by experienced editors who may or may not be sysops. While much larger RfCs of this type can be closed by panels - i.e. Fox News - this doesn't seem to be of that type and S Marshall is one of the most frequent closers of RfCs so he seems qualified to enact a close of this type. That isn't to say he got this perfect, my assessment follows that of Wugapodes below, but I think we need to be cautious about where we require panels and/or admin closers. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:09, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Endorse close. I'm not thrilled with the summary of how the !votes were weighed. I just don't think it makes a ton of sense to weigh new ideas more heavily then old ones for example. But yes, the argument to depreciate just wasn't strong. Most of the arguments were focused on if the DW was reilable. And what it seemed to mostly conclude is that it is hugely biased in its selection of what to cover, but wasn't wrong on the facts too often. Not reliable, but not something we need to say no to across the board. Hobit (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Given a brief read of the close and discussion, it looks like a no consensus result which would default to the source keeping its "generally unreliable" classification. The minority opposed to deprecation is substantial and well reasoned, relying on how reliable sources characterize the Daily Wire and their practice of publishing corrections and retractions. That's legitimate cause to not deprecate, and the supporters aren't so numerous that it shows the opposition can be ignored and overruled. While I don't agree with SMarshall's method of bean counting, I don't see any way that I could read that discussion and find consensus to deprecate. The number stuff isn't in the actual close so I don't see any reason to overturn it in favor of someone else's. — Wug·a·po·des​ 22:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse close - disclaimer, I participated and argued against deprecation. This looked like a good close in my view. Both sides pointed to RSs to support their claims and both sides made valid claims with regards to the general reliability of the source. As mentioned above there isn't a clear standard as to when to deprecate (this is perhaps a big part of the issue here). Regardless, based only on arguments there isn't a consensus since both sides have made a reasonable case as to how reliable/not reliable the DW is. By the numbers we are right around 60% in favor of deprecation with 19 oppose and either 27 or 29 depending on how we count two of the editors who were not explicit. Additionally, since closing we have I think 2 editors who have said they would have opposed deprecation. I don't read that as a sufficient difference in numbers to call it consensus based on numbers alone. Thus we have neither a clear consensus based on numbers nor reasoning. Any specific extra weighting S Marshall applies doesn't appear to have changed the outcome and such weighting isn't without precedent. How many of us would give equal weight to a brand new IP editor saying, "Support!" vs a seasoned editor with a good reputation who offers some level of explanation? If anything this discussion should perhaps point to the need to better define how and when deprecation should be used so when this sort of thing comes up in the future we can argue for/against based on a specific list of criteria. Springee (talk) 13:36, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: TFD !voted twice (#1 on 29 September, #2 on 5 October) in the RfC. It would help to know if S Marshall factored this in. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks: You're right and I didn't spot it. I ought to have done, and if users here want to overturn my close on that basis then I could not reasonably object. Revising my assessment to take that into account makes the discussion a very close call indeed -- I think that if I subtract TFD's second !vote, then "consensus to deprecate" or "no consensus" would both have been within closer's discretion. I would not criticise a closer who went for either one. I personally would still have gone for "no consensus" on the basis that where there's discretion, I tend to prefer the outcome that's least restrictive. In the circumstances it's right for me to ping endorsing users Selfstudier, Wugapodes, Barkeep49, Springee and Colin M in case they want to re-consider their endorsements.—S Marshall T/C 17:44, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks for responding S Marshall. Courtesy ping for Springee, as I'm fairly sure a new line addition is a requirement for pings to work. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  Thank for the ping. I wouldn't change my endorsement. Depending on how we count, by numbers alone it's 29:18 (62%) but that is assuming two of the less than clear !votes are for deprecate. If we remove those then we have 27:18 (60%). If we add the two editors who didn't respond to the initial RfC but voiced their objections after the fact we have either 29:20 (59%) or 27:20 (57%). Taking away one "no" !vote shifts a few percentage in the direction of deprecation but it doesn't change the quality of the arguments presented by either side. By pure numbers alone I still don't see this as anything but a no-consensus or a case where we need to use strength of argument would be needed to tip the balance. I think most people here feel the strength of argument is no-consensus as well. Springee (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Overturn I believe the closer had a good faith reason to think that the community had not come to a rough consensus regarding deprecation, but I think it's pretty clear from the arguments in the RfC that a consensus had been achieved to deprecate the source. We don't need unanimity, and I think a proper closure following a thorough evaluation of the arguments being made would end with the same conclusion. Specifically, I believe the closure was not a reasonable summation of the discussion. To be clear, I did !vote in this discussion, so I am not uninvolved. AlexEng 19:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• I concur that this feels like a close call to me. There is a variety of arguments with some unsettled disagreement on many, the deprecate side has a slight numerical advantage but I'd be hesitant in seeing a consensus to deprecate here. I think that spelling out that this RfC does not imply that this source is fine to use is reasonable. Nobody is complaining about obvious supervotes or involved closes or anything and I don't see any obvious indication, either. So endorse. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse the close that I paraphrase as “No consensus to relabel from Generally unreliable to Deprecated”.

"Generally unreliable" could mean "unreliable for anything of any interest worth a citation", i.e. can be read as an extremely strong condemnation already.

The meaning of “deprecated” was questioned. Does it mean “always unreliable” and worthy of blacklisting?

A good way forward is to write a follow up RFC with a better question. Use at least three people to agree on the RfC question. Wait at least two months before launching the new RfC. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

• Endorse I am neither involved, nor would likely use this source for anything, but the close is reasonable in light of that discussion. We certainly do not need a bureaucracy to close such things by a 'closing commission', nor limit such closes to only those with sysop permissions: the close is reasonable in and of itself, without regard to 'who' bureaucracy (see, NOBURO). And whether or not weighting to come up with a new percentage is a fools errand, here it seems sub nominally a good faith attempt to comply with NOTAVOTE. In the end, all the close did was keep to prior consensus on the matter, and that consensus was not overturned, there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
• Overturn. There is a fact that the closer didn't seem to factor in when they made their tally. Many of those who opposed deprecation argued that all RS make corrections as soon as they are known and can be published. Those who used that argument should have been discounted as using faulty reasoning. In the various discussions leading up to this RfC about the reliability of TDW, evidence from professional and academic sources was presented by participants. Those sources exposed fatal flaws in TDW's coverage of certain types of politically-charged facts, and that documentation didn't seem to factor into the tallying decision. So that's two major facts that were not factored into the tallying.

There is a big difference between what RS do when they make a correction and what TDW does. TDW has a de facto position of denying the scientific consensus on climate change (and several other topics) because that is their position, and they will always shade their wording to deny or undermine that consensus. They are thus ALWAYS an unreliable source for that topic, as well as some others where their bias is so strong that they deny or undermine facts. This is what happens when sources are extremely biased; their bias gets in the way of accurately reporting the facts. They do not believe the facts.

TDW's track record reveals that lack of fact-checking isn't the real problem, but deliberate opposition to the facts is the problem, and then they dare to write their misleading opinions as facts. Later corrections, always because they've been called out, are just smoke and mirrors as they will do it again. They don't learn from that experience because learning the facts and then applying them to their editorial decisions is not their modus operandi. They believe and push disinformation, usually in harmony with Trump's positions. -- Valjean (talk) 15:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

• Endorse. I don't think that Buffs' defence of TDW as partisan but not careless of truth was adequately addressed by many on the pro-deprecate side, and the discussion could be regarded as ongoing after 30 days. We really need to get the deprecate case right before changing RS/P, so closing as 'no consensus' can be seen as asking for the pro-deprecate side to get someone to put together the case for deprecation properly this time, which seems like the right step to me. — Charles Stewart (talk) 20:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse close (!voted to upgrade). This appears to be yet another layer upon layers of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Recent 100% in favor of upgrading the RfC, contesting the closure after the RfC, contesting the closure on WP:AN, contesting the upholding of closure on WP:AN, attempts to block me from editing via WP:ANEW, etc. Valjean's comments are indicative of the attitude of those looking to shut it down. "They support Trump therefore they are liars!" and the like are nothing more than an attempt to poison the well. Remarks on the article's talk page are now getting unreasonable, personal, and profane. Buffs (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
• Weak endorse. I did not find either side to have clearly better arguments, so it's down to the numbers, which can range anywhere from the mid 50s to lower 60s depending on how you handle the ambiguous cases. I think a case could be made either way, and so will defer to the actual decision as a valid exercise of closer's discretion. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
• Overturn - The closer's argument that "we don't have a policy on deprecation; what we have is WP:DEPS, and it isn't even a guideline" is made moot by the fact that WP:RSP, which is in practice the 'policy' of whether or not we can use a source, lists 44 out of 365 sources as 'deprecated'. That is 12% or roughly 1/8th of the list — demonstrating that by consensus and in practice we do have a policy on deprecation. I posit that the closer's viewpoint on deprecation was a barrier to a correct evaluation of the !votes and the arguments/reasonings posted. The full quote: "I should clarify that I did not find that any !votes had greater fidelity to our policies because we don't have a policy on deprecation. What we have is WP:DEPS, and it isn't even a guideline." By that explanation/logic, he would have classified !votes for deprecation as 'virtual nothings', something no more than a person's individual opinion.

Just yesterday, a report came out on the top 10 fringe publishers that fuel 69% of digital climate change denial. The Daily Wire is on that list of "The Toxic Ten". Comparing our WP:RSP to the Toxic Ten report: three we have deprecated (Breitbart, Newsmax, RT), three are marked generally unreliable (The Western Journal, Media Research Center, The Daily Wire), two marginally reliable (Townhall, Washington Times), and two not mentioned in RSP (The Federalist Papers, The Patriot Post). Not a single one of those ten have we listed as generally reliable. So RSP is not too far off of those that are conducting research on these publishers. The report goes on to mention Daily Wire "has published many misleading and false claims, on topics ranging from Covid to immigration ... publishes misleading climate content ... reject scientific consensus on climate change". That barely reaches generally unreliable — the key word here being "generally".

Multiple other reliable sources have consistently listed Daily Wire as misleading for years (for at least the last 4 of it's only 6 years in business), and continuing as recently as yesterday, denoting no improvement of DW's editorial oversight in the direction of truthfulness. This was brought up repeatedly in the RfC. It is beyond me how that could have been missed or granted low value or low importance when the issue being considered was 'level of reliability'. At what point do we as a community of editors start to listen to our own 'recognized reliable sources'? I !vote to overturn the close. (Disclosure: I !voted in the RfC to deprecate.) Platonk (talk) 07:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

We don't have a policy on deprecation. There does exist a concept called deprecation which has community support, and is defined within the closing summary of WP:DAILYMAIL1 and WP:DAILYMAIL2, but that's all there is. When someone says "there is no policy on deprecation" they aren't passing a personal viewpoint on deprecation, they're simply stating the fact that there is no page tagged with {{policy}} that details what deprecation is (such as what factors cause a source to be deprecated, what kinds of evidence is good evidence for a deprecation RfC , whether publishing garbage opinions calls for deprecation, or how exactly deprecation should be implemented). The effect is that votes in a deprecation RfC can't really be weighted in line with any PAG. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

ProcrastinatingReader, you're right that it's not a policy (WP:RS/P is essay-class) but WP:DAILYMAIL1 closing summary did not define deprecation or say Daily Mail is deprecated. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

An issue that is at play around "deprecation" is that the use some editors treat it as (effectively, "a total ban") is different from where its taken from its meaning in computing ("no longer supported, should be replaced in time"). (I did participate in the Daily Wire discussion and believe that what "deprecation" meant over "generally unreliable" was a factor of confusion). Perhaps a better solution is to make sure there's a consensus-agreed upon meaning of deprecation as applies to RS/P (this would also address issues when some editors have in haste rushed through to remove sources that have been deprecated without necessarily good cleanup after removal which have been brought to ANI w/o action in the past), and then if that justifies it, redo the Daily Wire RFC. I would offer that, if this discussion should happen, there should be talk related to RSOPINION factors related to sources that are otherwise "generally unreliable" or considered "deprecated", and that there may need to be a fifth status separate from deprecation, that being "disallowed" (applying to Daily Mail for certain) where even RSOPINION would not apply. --Masem (t) 16:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, the closer (S Marshall) is correct when he declares we don't have an actual "policy" on deprecation, but that declaration begs the question of why he said it. Was it to diss the idea of requesting deprecation as somehow illegitimate, unworthy of consideration, or less due weight in an RfC? I don't know, and I'll AGF, but that seems to be the effect. A request for deprecation is just as legitimate as any other request, and protecting Misplaced Pages and our readers should weigh heaviest in our considerations. Mistakenly deprecating a source has fewer unintended consequences than failing to deprecate a source that should be deprecated because an improper deprecation can easily be overturned. An analogy is mistakenly preventing a child from eating a gummy candy that is erroneously suspected of being a cannabis edible. That decision has fewer unintended consequences than failing to prevent them from eating it if it actually is infused with hallucinogens. Children shouldn't be getting high. We should err on the side of caution, so we should weigh those considerations higher in a close situation, and in this one there is a clear majority, even if not quite "super", in favor of deprecation.

What we have is WP:Deprecated sources, an informational page, not an essay, so don't diss it. It informs how we apply policies and guidelines, so it carries the weight of policies and guidelines. We do have a practice of deprecating sources, especially those which repeatedly fail fact-checking and continue to push disinformation and misleading content because their real positions are counterfactual, agenda-driven and not just sloppy internal fact-checking. That fact is unquestioned. That is its history, repeatedly pointed out by fact-checkers. That's the way TDW works. Its basic counterfactual beliefs and political agenda in several areas make it resistant to improvement. Year after year it makes the same "mistakes" because those are not "mistakes" but deliberate pushing of its erroneous beliefs.

We have already deprecated several other fringe sources in the Toxic Ten that are close allies of TDW and push the same types of fringe misinformation. (They should all be considered for deprecation.) TDW is in that list because it has the same fringe agenda and is guilty of the same types of fringe "misinformation crimes", so it is time to put TDW in the same category here as the other dubious sources that RS group together as fringe unreliable sources of misinformation. -- Valjean (talk) 15:55, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

First, both your comments are re-arguing the RFC instead of focusing on the close. Second, in my view you're approaching bludgeoning territory. Third, some of your points are just obviously wrong. that declaration begs the question of why he said it He answered that question already: because there is no deprecation policy, there is no basis for discounting votes as not based on the deprecation policy. What we have is WP:Deprecated sources, an informational page, not an essay, so don't diss it. It informs how we apply policies and guidelines, so it carries the weight of policies and guidelines. Literally at the very top of that page, offset in a box, it says it's not a policy or guideline. It doesn't carry the weight of either because it hasn't been thoroughly vetted by the community. WP:INFOPAGES: In comparison to policies and guidelines, information pages, like essay pages, have a limited status, and can reflect varying levels of consensus and vetting., and that is per the global consensus of a guideline. Levivich 16:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

• Endorse close. The conclusion reached by the closer can be summarized where they stated "The community does not reach consensus to deprecate the Daily Wire". Regardless of the rest of the closure statement, or any other rationale, that seems a reasonable conclusion to draw given both the number of comments on each side, AND on the arguments made by both sides. At this point, there is nothing to be gained by re-opening the discussion over some inconsequential minutiae, as nearly any other person closing it would likely have also reached the conclusion that no consensus could be reached; in such cases status quo ante bellum is reasonable, which is what the closer declared. The rest of this is sour grapes by people who argued for one specific outcome. Many of the arguments to overturn are relitigating the original argument, which is NOT what this discussion is supposed to be about. The close was a reasonable interpretation of the overall discussion. --Jayron32 16:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse. I was involved, but I !voted for deprecation and am disappointed in the result. That said, I think S Marshall's close was a reasonable summation of the discussion. NC closes when the weighted !vote count is about 60/40 are reasonable. I do hope to see S Marshall accept some rough consensus here from both involved and uninvolved editors that his over-weighting of "new thoughts" is ill-advised. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:21, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
  • The practical effect of upweighting all the "new thoughts and new sources" is to (slightly) downweight all the per-noms. My intention, in doing this, is to give (slightly) higher weight those who engage in evidence-based discussion and move the conversation forward instead of merely repeating things that have already been said, and the policy basis for this is that Wikipedian discussions aren't !votes. Nobody in the discussion above has brought any actual reasons to disapprove of this practice.—S Marshall T/C 16:46, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
    • That practice lacks nuance. If the editor clearly seems to show no understanding of the issue, perhaps by voting per a vote that other editors have substantively argued is flawed, I'd find it dubious. Otherwise, it can just be a case of agreement, noting that someone said it better, and realising that writing paragraphs repeating the same points in different words just makes the discussion harder to read. Theoretically the former should receive less weight and the latter should receive equal weight, IMO, although obviously it can hard to determine which one it is, and impossible to say with any certainty. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:55, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
      • It's definitely easier in a discussion where I have any policy basis on which to upweight or downweight !votes.—S Marshall T/C 17:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
        • Yes, closing deprecation discussions can be difficult for that reason (also why I haven't really opined here). As I've said before, I do think we need a PAG for deprecation; both to guide deprecation RfCs, provide for vote weighting, and suggest what kinds of evidence is good evidence for deprecation, and also to guide the actual implementation of deprecation. I think we could write one if some of the editors most interested in deprecation were on board with the idea. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
          • I fully agree. While the current informational page at WP:Deprecated sources explains when and how we apply other PAG for that purpose, folding it into a real policy page would be even better. -- Valjean (talk) 00:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
    • Nobody in the discussion above has brought any actual reasons to disapprove of this practice. The reason not to give new arguments more weight is because new arguments aren't necessarily better arguments. Imagine a hypothetical discussion with 50 participants. The first "support" !vote from Editor #1 gives "Argument A". Editor #2 supports but with a new Argument B, and Editor #3 supports per Argument C. Then 47 editors, persuaded by Argument A, each write "per Editor 1". There is no reason to weigh Editor 2 and Editor 3's !votes more than anyone else. If anything, Argument B and Argument C are worse, not better, than Argument A, as evidenced by 48 editors agreeing with A but only 1 with B and 1 with C. So if anything, Editor 2 and 3's !votes should be given less weight, not more. If it's not a vote, if it's about the strength of arguments, then Argument A and it's 48 votes are stronger than B or C, according to the consensus of the 50 editors participating. (And of course if Argument A was not policy based, then all 48 votes supporting it should be discounted.) Levivich 17:33, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
      • I'm struggling to make sense of this. Could you say it another way?—S Marshall T/C 18:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
        • See User:Wugapodes/RFA trend lines for a related discussion. Broadly, the order in which comments are posted is not a reliable indicator of any (change in an) underlying consensus. At best the order can help use evaluate a preexisting belief that consensus changed during a discussion, but in general mechanistic evaluations of comment order are not useful. — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - no consensus to deprecate seems like a reasonable result of the discussion, I don't see a strong consensus having formed anywhere. This reopening here strongly smells of attempts to relitigate the discussion, and also seems to be politically motivated to some extent. Hog Farm _Talk 16:28, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I would like to defend both nominators, David Gerard and Nableezy, against any charge of being politically motivated. I am quite confident that they aren't. I don't just assume good faith, I believe on the basis of reading their words that their motivation is to purge the encyclopaedia of unreliable sources. Per consensus this source is unreliable and on a personal level, I have a lot of sympathy for their case --- even though I'm still not exactly thrilled to have been told that I'm "interfering" with an "administrative review" of my conduct. I hope that a positive outcome from this matter will be a discussion in which the community produces a set of agreed standards for deprecation that could inform future decisions of this type.—S Marshall T/C 16:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I honestly dont really care at all about The Daily Caller or whether or not it is deprecated, just the reasoning for the close seemed very off to me. I barely ever edit in that topic area anyway. As far as re-litigate, you notice I didnt even participate in that discussion? I didnt care enough to vote about it, but I would want to re-litigate it? I disagreed with the reasoning offered, and disagreed with the pedantic close of the initial challenge even more, so I challenged the close. I thought administrators here were supposed to be held to a high standard as far as following policy. nableezy - 17:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTBURO is policy. --Jayron32 17:20, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Which is why the original challenge should have stayed open? Or do you mean some sort of failing in my challenge here? The line above about sour grapes is likewise a blatant failure of AGF. Nowhere in my challenge did I attempt to relitigate the topic on if this source should be deprecated. I challenged the close because of the reasoning of the close. I do think there was consensus one way, and I think the way votes were weighted failed our CON policy. So here I am. nableezy - 17:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I didn't mean anything about your comments, Nableezy. By the political references, I meant to refer to comments in the above discussion such as They believe and push disinformation, usually in harmony with Trump's positions Hog Farm _Talk 17:30, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Hog Farm, I'm going to AGF and take what you wrote above as a misunderstanding, not what could appear to be an assumption of bad faith against me. I do not think you intended that, so I'll just write a clarification here. You wrote "seems to be politically motivated to some extent." That's exactly backwards. We do not deprecate sources because of their political positions, but because they are unreliable, and if those sources happen to have a particular political slant, so be it. I was just mentioning en passant a simple fact. All of those Toxic Ten sources, which includes TDW, are strong, often extreme, fringe right-wing sources that push misinformation that is "in harmony with Trump's positions", which RS and our articles here describe as misinformation and conspiracy theories. We even have a whole article which describes the lack of Veracity of statements by Donald Trump. That's a simple fact, and stating it does not imply any form of improper "political motivation" on my part. I just happen to believe RS and the content in our articles. I trust you would see that as a good and wikipedian thing to do. There was no reason to personalize the matter by commenting on it and quoting me. Just AGF. -- Valjean (talk) 00:39, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that wasn't my best comment. I still think it's best not to throw Trump in there. While I agree that there's a lot of very poor right wing sources out there, I still don't think it's great to throw in the Trump name. (For one thing, it sure seems like most politicians lie to an alarming degree, not just that one in specific). Speaking as one of the few open conservatives I'm aware of active here, it just feels unnecessary to say "these sources peddle junk, and they agree with Trump basically, when "these sources peddle junk" would be enough. I didn't properly assume good faith, but I think it would be best not to invoke the name of controversial politic figures in the future, when simply presenting the various evidence has just as effective of a point. I'm concerned that personalizing things like that just alienates those on the other end of the political spectrum. Hog Farm Talk 03:24, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey, it's all cool. I didn't intend to trigger any reaction, and I apologize for any unintended consequences of mentioning "the former guy" (TFG). The relevance of the connection between TFG and the sources that back him isn't always apparent, nor is it always necessary to point it out. -- Valjean (talk) 05:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough, but Im the one who reopened it here, so when you say the reopening here ... I take that to mean me. Id just as soon ban every user who participated in a discussion from commenting on its closure review. nableezy - 17:35, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah. I think there'd be some benefit in working something out to making the deprecate guidelines a bit clearer, such as maybe a community-worked out general area where "should not be used" becomes "deprecate". From my experience, it's not well coded out, and I think RSN discussions would be better off with a more universal and consistent idea of what deprecation meant. Hog Farm _Talk 17:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

• Endorse Close per Wugapodes and others. Leaving aside the offline "algorithm" that was apparently used to weigh !votes, the close looks like a fair and well-reasoned summary of the discussion, and I don't see that anyone could have really seen a consensus to deprecate beyond the cautionary language already in effect. I also disagree with SMarshall's suggestion of a more robust depreciation policy. The process we already have is working well enough without bringing confusing WP:CREEP into it which would interfere with common sense case-by-case assessment.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:01, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I would argue that deprecation is being sought/used by some individuals to advance an agenda. I think deprecation should have a much higher bar to clear and clearer guidance could assist in that. Buffs (talk) 14:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
    • One of our agendas at Misplaced Pages aims to prevent the misuse of Misplaced Pages as a platform for the advocacy of fringe opinions from unreliable sources. Unfortunately, the TDW article, like many fringe articles, is being used to advance a fringe agenda, and efforts to stop that abuse are being opposed. Those efforts expose and reinforce the need for deprecation, and certainly not your complete removal, without any discussion, from RS/P we saw before this RfC. That removal was the trigger for the RfC because it exposed a need for an increase of status from "generally unreliable" to "deprecated". Attempts to defend and promote fringe opinions should stop. The article should not be allowed to become the desired platform for pushing fringe opinions, especially in an unduly self-serving manner. Mainstream RS are united in their criticism of TDW, so that is the NPOView which due weight tells us should dominate the article. That will offend believers in those fringe POV, but that is none of our concern. We do not pander to them. Our loyalty is to how RS treat TDW. Articles that deal with fringe content, and TDW is one of them, must follow our PAG for fringe content. -- Valjean (talk) 16:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
      • WP should not have any agendas, that's a basic failing of NPOV. We do want to make sure we do not misrepresent what are mainstream views or readily-accepted scientific theories under NPOV, and to that end we do not need to give fringe views any type of credibility in WP's voice (particularly when it comes to medical information), but that's not an agenda, that's just policy. That problem with considering an agenda against fringe science makes it difficult to discuss these encyclopedic factor around those points, an issue raised in a concurrent (and apparently unrelated to this TDW issue) at WP:VPP#Fringe, Anti-fringe, and Turning Misplaced Pages's Values Upside-down.
      • Relevant to this discussion and the RFC, this doesn't mean that WP cannot talk around fringe views, their history and origins, and why those that believe in them do so, as long as we avoid a false balance, avoid unduly self-serving or promoting material related to the fringe view, and make sure any claims remains well out of Wikivoice. There are interesting social aspects on how these fringes theories are developed and maintained even if they are broadly considered wrong (eg the big one right now of interest is the critical race theory after US elections on Tuesday to understand how it caught on so fast). And this is where even a source like the Daily Wire, which may report more from that side of the aisle, is actually useful to fill in any gaps related to these types of theories that may exist in mainstream coverage, again being careful on false balance. Unlike the Daily Mail or state media like RT where the actual truthfulness of what they report is in question, works like the Daily Wire may report with their bias but as shown during the RFC, they still have journalistic practices that avoid actually falsification in reporting and editorial oversight/redactions. Considering that was the line drawn when the Daily Mail was "deprecated" (marked that way on RS/P), that's why this all comes back to having a separate discussion on defining what "deprecation" actually should be (ban or the computer terminology version), if that's separate from "generally unreliable", establishing that as PAG, and then reconsidering TDW within that scheme, keeping in mind that bias does not necessarily equate to unreliability. --Masem (t) 20:29, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
        • On any topic (such as your example of critical race theory) the mainstream centrist media agencies will cover both sides. There is no need to use biased sources in order to 'balance NPOV' in a Misplaced Pages article. Biased sources are not forbidden, but they are also not encouraged, and if the biased sources are not declared "unreliable sources" (or worse), then we can use them. However, there is never any reason to use a biased "generally unreliable" source in order to 'balance NPOV'. The use which you are hinting at smacks of using biased sources to do primary research which would result in original research. And your opinion that DW has "journalistic practices that avoid actually falsification in reporting", then you haven't read much of the published criticism about said journalistic practices. I have learned much in the last week. Your turn. Platonk (talk) 21:37, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
        • Let me be clear, our agendas at Misplaced Pages should be to follow our PAG. Those who misuse Misplaced Pages to advocate fringe opinions from unreliable sources have other agendas which are at odds with our PAG. That's all I was saying. -- Valjean (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
          • The problem is that you are misusing WP rules to advance your agenda and you aren't just doing it here. By terming TDW as "fringe" without evidence, you are attempting to poison the well. TDW posts largely mainstream conservative opinions. Stating "The establishment media's deep desire to keep people from clicking on stories they want to read, and to re-establish their traditional informational monopoly -- now an effort funded by US taxpayer dollars via NPR -- is truly authoritarian garbage." is a statement of opinion and it's hardly outside the mainstream conservative thought. You can point to errors or bias as to whether or not TDW is a WP:RS for purposes of WP (and we can disagree on that), but that doesn't make it "fringe". You're (badly) conflating the two. Most of the "it's misleading" comments don't actually address the accuracy of the statements made, but instead say "it isn't balanced". By the same token, the sources you've cited are mostly leftist/left-leaning and aren't balanced. They are focusing exclusively on the inaccuracies (which is what TDW is doing too). By that flawed logic, they are just as credible. Buffs (talk) 03:30, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
            • Please FOC, not on me. It's tiring. We are justified in calling The Daily Wire a "fringe source" because RS do so. Extreme left- and right-wing sources are fringe. TDW is listed among the Toxic Ten, and all ten are called "fringe publishers" that together were responsible "for nearly 70% of user interactions with content that denies climate change on Facebook". "Mainstream conservative", back when I and literally everyone I knew were conservatives, used to mean just slightly right of center, and overlapping center, but no longer. Now, with few exceptions, it means far-right and extreme far-right, IOW often fringe. That doesn't mean there aren't any conservative, right-wing, sources that are considered RS and which we use. There are, but TDW isn't among them. All of the Toxic Ten are very fringe, and several are deprecated here for good reason. None of them should be used, with the exception of "about self" situations, and then not in a "self-serving" manner or for advocacy of their fringe positions. We can only use them to document their opinions neutrally in their own biography articles, and their use in RS is what tells us what due weight to assign them. -- Valjean (talk) 03:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
• Endorse close. I'm not a fan of the formula used to justify the close, but in the end I think a no-consensus close was reasonable here. It might be time to close this discussion as well. -- Calidum 17:22, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

  Agreed. Thank you. Buffs (talk) 03:30, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

References

1. Porterfield, Carlie (November 2, 2021). "Breitbart Leads Climate Change Misinformation On Facebook, Study Says". Forbes. Retrieved November 3, 2021.
2. Center for Countering Digital Hate (November 2, 2021). "The Toxic Ten: How ten fringe publishers fuel 69% of digital climate change denial". Center for Countering Digital Hate. Retrieved November 3, 2021.

• Comment: Section reflist added. Jalen Folf (talk) 04:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

RfA 2021 Phase 2

Following a discussion with over 100 editors, 8 issues were identified with Requests for Adminship (RfA). Phase 2 has begun and will use the following timeline:

• 10/24: Editors may submit proposals for changing/modifying RfA
• 10/31: The 30 day discussion period has begun (where we are)
• 11/7: Deadline for submitting proposals to give the community adequate time to discuss any proposals
• 11/30: 30 day discussion period ends

All interested editors are invited to participate in Phase 2. Thanks and best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:PERM#Rollback backlog

Please any admin would sort out the request pendings. It would be better because some are continuously requesting other admin's talk page about consideration of request, regardless of their patience. --Jyoti Roy (talk) 12:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

It is backlogged for around 4 or 5 days till now.--Jyoti Roy (talk) 12:49, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – November 2021

News and updates for administrators from the past month (October 2021).

Administrator changes Clpo13 Brian0918 • JDoorjam • Karanacs • MrDarcy • Mindspillage Interface administrator changes Evad37

CheckUser changes Dreamy Jazz • Ferret • GeneralNotability • Girth Summit • RoySmith Oversight changes Dreamy Jazz • LuK3

Guideline and policy news

• Phase 2 of the 2021 RfA review has commenced which will discuss potential solutions to address the 8 issues found in Phase 1. Proposed solutions that achieve consensus will be implemented and you may propose solutions till 07 November 2021.

Technical news

• Toolhub is a catalogue of tools which can be used on Wikimedia wikis. It is at https://toolhub.wikimedia.org/.

Arbitration

• GeneralNotability, Mz7 and Cyberpower678 have been appointed to the Electoral Commission for the 2021 Arbitration Committee Elections. Ivanvector and John M Wolfson are reserve commissioners.
• Eligible editors are invited to self-nominate themselves to stand in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections from 07 November 2021 until 16 November 2021.

Miscellaneous

• The 2021 CheckUser and Oversight appointments process has concluded with the appointment of five new CheckUsers and two new Oversighters.

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Being able to create an article on a subject that was locked by an admin 9 years ago?

Hello, and I hope I am in the right place with this question. I recently saw some news coverage about the news resource Benzinga and I thought that I could make an article out of it. However, I noticed that some silly people ran amok 9 years ago and wound up getting the subject locked indefinitely by an admin . I would ask the admin who locked the subject for help, but he has been absent from Misplaced Pages from more than a year, and I wondered if I could get this unlocked so I can add a new article that meets Misplaced Pages's standards. Thank you. And Adoil Descended (talk) 17:08, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I suggest you create in draft using the WP:AFC process. GiantSnowman 17:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, thank you very much. I will do that right now. And Adoil Descended (talk) 17:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Deletion request

Hello. Could somebody please delete User:Tol/Template/TolBot tasks/tasks.json under speedy deletion criterion U1? I'm coming here because I've used Twinkle to tag it twice, but (because it's a JSON page) the tag was placed on the talk page (with a note to delete the content page), and both times, only the talk page was deleted, despite my note to please delete the JSON page (the second time, I even made it large, red, and bold). Thanks. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 20:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Tol:  Done clpo13_(talk) 20:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! Tol (talk | contribs) @ 20:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Please create a 𒁹𒀭𒌍𒋾𒀀𒅆 redirect to Sîn-lēqi-unninni

𒁹𒀭𒌍𒋾𒀀𒅆 deserves a redirect to Sîn-lēqi-unninni just like Ὅμηρος. LoveToLondon (talk) 22:02, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Finally, someone will solve my problem of accidentally searching things in cuneiform...--Ermenrich (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Mm, I know redirects are cheap and all, but the characters in this proposed redirect are so obscure that they are disallowed by the title blacklist. I don't really see a compelling need to give a special exemption for this relatively obscure topic. Mz7 (talk) 00:57, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

"Relatively obscure topic"? Let's not be so anti-Sumeric. Levivich 01:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

The real value in +sysop: making all those Linear A redirects I've been wanting to add. GeneralNotability (talk) 01:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

You Cretan! Levivich 16:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

You Cretan! Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

This thread made me LOL, and therefore my day. Thank you.UnitedStatesian (talk) 16:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Given this site's predisposition towards nerdiness, I'm somewhat surprised we don't have redirects in Cirth Hog Farm _Talk 16:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Where do I go to declare myself 𒈗 of Misplaced Pages? Dumuzid (talk) 16:41, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

WP:RENAME Levivich 16:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd do it but can't determine whether this is indeed the correct way to write this name. —Kusma (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I mean considering I don't even know what it says because they aren't rendering, you're already further than me in that determination -- Asartea 17:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done The cuneiform is correct and verifiable. The article cites the spelling to the open richly annotated cuneiform corpus at UPenn. The entry in that corpus corresponds to the cuneiform of this redirect. If anyone would like to verify this, Prof. Kateřina Šašková of University of West Bophemia provides a glossary of cuneiform signs which you can cross-reference with the ORACC entry. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the concern was whether the redirect was accurate, but rather if it's really necessary to have a redirect that is in a script that only a handful of people in the world would be able to recognise, let alone read. But hey, what's done is done, I suppose if anyone has issue they can take it to the usual places. Primefac (talk) 11:37, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

My concern was the accuracy, as I couldn't figure out the ORACCle. It is a typical case of a probably useless but definitely harmless redirect, so why not create it... —Kusma (talk) 11:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The title blacklist entry that blocked this creation was justified as "very few characters outside the Basic Multilingual Plane are useful in titles". The usefulness of redirects is best determined at RFD not at AN, so the standard I had for creation was similar to AFC: would it stand a good chance of surviving a deletion discussion. The OP gave an example of another famous editor of the ancient canon, Ὅμηρος. At a more general level, WP:RFOREIGN says that non-English redirects are appropriate when the redirected title is an official name of the subject, and the cuneiform is quite literally how the subject wrote his own name in his edition of The Epic of Gilgamesh. As for usefulness, if it's useful for a only a handful of readers it's still useful, and that someone requested its creation suggests that someone noticed the omission. I can anticipate some counterarguments given my experience at RfD, but compared to RFOREIGN I don't anticipate them resulting in a consensus to delete. Given that the redirect was correct and (in my estimation) likely to survive a deletion discussion, I created. — Wug·a·po·des​ 18:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Due process — Request to close "Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive338#E-960 TBAN — Request for the lifting of sanctions" discussion properly (archived without formal closure)

I'd like to ask the administrators to close out my "TBAN Request for the lifting of sanctions" filing, it was archived the other day without the due process. At this point, it can be formally closed as there was sufficient input from other users over the past 4 weeks to draw a conclusion. The original discussion, which was not closed but simply archived is linked here: --E-960 (talk) 06:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I've only had a quick skim of the arguments made at the linked discussion, but it does look like there's some measure of consensus to lift the TBAN. I'm totally fine with someone else stepping in and formally doing something about this, but if not I'll take a deeper look tonight and use this discussion as the "formal close" of the archived threads. Primefac (talk) 13:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done; there is a reasonable consensus at the linked discussion to indicate that "one last chance" should be offered to E-960. I will be lifting the RESTRICTION shortly. Thank you for your patience. Primefac (talk) 20:03, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Help needed with creating categories

Can someone please help with category creation at Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Redirects and categories? 46.116.237.145 (talk) 15:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Temporary checkuser privileges for scrutineers

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

On recommendation of the Electoral Commission, temporary English Misplaced Pages checkuser privileges are granted to stewards Sotiale, Martin Urbanec, and Tks4Fish solely for the purpose of their acting as scrutineers in the 2021 Arbitration Committee election.

For the Arbitration Committee, Maxim_(talk) 17:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Temporary checkuser privileges for scrutineers

battleground IP

88.230.173.190 (talk · contribs), 88.230.176.200 (talk · contribs), 88.230.169.26 (talk · contribs)

• Battleground focused IP making personal attacks against me in their talk page
• Following me around and casting same racial and ethnic rants against me , when I tried to inform an admin .

Range block may be needed if an admin is willing to help. Thanks in advance, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:28, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh and btw, I've never been to the US IP, not sure how you're so strong in your assumptions. But then again, judging by your comments, most if not all of it doesn't make sense regardless, and you're clearly not fit to edit on Misplaced Pages if these are your comments/aspersions towards an editor you just met, or towards anyone else for that matter. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:47, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

JohnWiki159

User:JohnWiki159 (JohnWiki159 (talk · contribs)) edits seems nonconstructive. Admin intervention is required since she/he ignores warning and the user could triger edit war. --AntanO 16:56, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

It takes (at least) two to edit war. I see a content dispute that needs to be settled on the article talk page. - Donald Albury 22:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The user seems not interested in discussion than force edit / edit war. --AntanO 01:47, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Amir Noor Muhammad edit war

User:Amir Noor Muhammad (Amir Noor Muhammad (talk · contribs)) edits at the article for Malaysian Islamic Party (PAS) seem disruptive, as he keeps deleting sections about the political party's controversies (such as PAS supporting the Taliban). Admin intervention is required since he keeps ignoring others' warnings and he has an edit war with User:Francabicon (Francabicon (talk · contribs)).

PulauKakatua19 (talk) 19:23, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@PulauKakatua19: you MUST notify individuals if you are raising a concern about them at ANI. I have done so for Amir, but you should do so for Francabicon Nosebagbear (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nosebagbear: I'll admit that i didn't speak to Amir regarding this matter and so i did just now. However I will also let you know that Amir hasn't been respond user to any of the talks in pages or on the user talk pages. I've also stated in my edit that Amir is free to speak to me anytime in many of my edit comments and not just simply removed it without stating why. Guess what Amir not just ignores my comment on editing Amir personally went to 2 of the pages (UMNO and Bersatu) and rally people to prevent me from editing which is really toxic. Also Amir has not just removed my edit but the other peoples contribution which i do not think it is fair for Amir to do so. Not getting stereotypical but i have reasonable evidence to accuse him of Ignorant BIAS views for his edits. By the way he has also changed his user name once for his edit after being called out by one of the users for speedy removal of one page. Francabicon (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2021 (UTC).

• This seems to be an example of how these two users communicate to each other.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:11, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
• I see lots of back and forth reverting at United Malays National Organisation but no discussion at the talk page. Both users look new. I'd suggest going back to last stable version and warning against edit warring. Maybe protecting the article might encourage them to use the talk page too.VR _talk 13:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

@Vice regent: yes I'm new but i do state the facts in our page with reasonable evidence but ] hasn't got any explanation other than "it's not related" or "not party issue" which doesn't explain much of his removal.Francabicon (talk) 21:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC

@Francabicon: I went through the content you are insistent on adding on these pages, and as they were, I think I would have reverted/reorganised/rewrite most of them, if not all, as well. I prefer to minimise/integrate/remove Controversy sections where possible. (See Misplaced Pages:Criticism). I am more inclined towards Amir Noor Muhammad's reasoning 'personal not on party lines' for because at least as an outsider of Malaysia and her politics, Malaysian politicians are generally seemed more independent of the political parties they belong to given that they can hop between parties without the risk of losing their elected offices, and also all the spilts out from within the parties that we had seen publicly so far, also with no detriment to their elected offices. That's unless that if their actions had an outsized influence or impact on the party's general direction. 3. Some expansion of existing content isn't really warranted, i.e. 1MDB on UMNO's page, given that there is already a separate article on the scandal. Why not update the 1MDB page, and tweak slight the summary in the UMNO page? Those expansions are really just WP:UNDUE. I suggest that you stopping edit for a while, take a step back, read through Misplaced Pages essayscome back with a fresh pair of eyes. Note: was pinged on this at my talk page, and I don't interact much with either editors. – robertsky (talk) 17:02, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

@Robertsky: ok that seem fair for umno but i do want to notify to you not just that part about politician controversy had been delete but the parties action had been deleted too like:

• 51 percent bumi policy
• ANTI ICERD RALLY

which is associated with party lines but he did state that it is not related.

IP keeps deleting edits

An anonymous IP, changing every day, keeps editing/deleting informations on Düsseldorf Airport cargo destinations table. He doesn't discuss on his talk pages or the one from the article. He's refusing references as not reliable giving years outdated sources by its own. Maybe this article should be closed for couple of days? Thank you N33dh4lp (talk) 20:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Have you tried requesting page protection? DonIago (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

IPs of Special:Contributions/2001:4454:400:0:0:0:0:0/38 misusing Talk pages while blocked

Following Materialscientist's block of this IP range for repeated vandalism and creating vandalising edit notices, the user on this IP range is repeatedly adding nonsense to their Talk pages, with the only edits containing "{{banned}}{{block}}", and subsequently wasting AnomieBOT's resources to substitute one of the templates. Anonymous users cannot be banned as far as I know, and I don't know why the user would keep doing this. I had previously attempted to request protection on one of these Talk pages, with no success. Jalen Folf (talk) 04:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

No point in this thread now, as this range's block has now expired. Jalen Folf (talk) 03:46, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Possible Legal Issue

An IP brought up their thoughts here Talk:Richard Desmond#Arbitrary break - some broader concerns. and said they read in the article ( https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/nov/05/richard-desmond-in-legal-battle-with-wikipedia-over-term-pornographer )that there is possible legal action coming, I have not seen any users make legal threats, but I feel some eyes should be kept here. If this is the wrong place to put this. Please let me know. Thank You. LakesideMiners 14:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Also if someone knows of a better title for this section. please let me know. LakesideMiners 14:39, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think this is necessarily the "wrong place" to put a note, as more eyes on a now-widely-viewed article is a Good Thing, but I don't think there's anything administrative to do at this particular point in time other than quash vandalism and ensure proper editing guidelines and policies are followed. BLPN might be a better "need help with content" location for article improvement. Primefac (talk) 14:47, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Got it. Just wanted to bring it up here to make sure that it is known. The IP summed up my thoughts perfectly. LakesideMiners 14:56, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLP

Paul Rusling (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is an unreferenced BLP. Not clear that he meets WP:N either. Can this be speedily deleted or does it need a formal AfD discussion? Mjroots (talk) 14:49, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

WP:PRODBLP? DuncanHill (talk) 14:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if that'll fly, as the external links are more or less being used as refs. Can't hurt to try though. CSD G11 might apply too. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

It would not - any "source" that provides information about the subject disqualifies it from a BLPPROD. Primefac (talk) 14:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

What do you think of G11, as it's obviously a promotional autobiography? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:04, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

G11 looks good to me. G10 doesn't quite fit the bill as it's not an attack page. Mjroots (talk) 15:06, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I was bold and tagged it, worst case is one of us switches it to a prod. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Given that that page seems to have been majorly contributed by a user named User:PaulRusling (though not solely), and then later a user named User:RadioMann that seemed only to contributed on that topic, this seems like a lot of COI issues at play that at best a TNT may be needed. --Masem (t) 14:56, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I've declined the speed deletion tag. The article is not actually blatantly promotional despite being largely an autobiography, and it is entirely too old (have been started in 2009) to qualify for speedy deletion. It doesn't qualify for WP:BLPPROD either, having been created prior to the adoption of that policy. Take it to AFD if that's what is needed. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 16:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

That it doesn't qualify for BLPPROD doesn't disqualify it from a straight PROD. Mjroots (talk) 16:43, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I just brought it to AfD. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:49, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@WikiDan61: This is moot given the AFD but note that BLPPROD has no date limit, check out the policy page for confirmation. There was a former legacy clause was removed in 2017 as a result of this discussion Misplaced Pages talk:Proposed deletion of biographies of living people/Archive 7#RfC: Remove the grandfather clause?. I don't think the article was eligible for BLPPROD since it looks to me like at least one of those sources supports something in the article but the creation date didn't come in to it. (Remember that while adding an RS is needed to remove a correctly place tag, any sources already present supporting one claim makes it ineligible.) Indeed arguably the book links themselves support him having published/written them. Nil Einne (talk) 13:49, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

(ec) I am not going to de-CSD it but AfD is always safer since if the article is recreated it can be speedy deleted as similar to one deleted as a result of a discussion.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/InstaShop

This is an informational posting. There was an outright fabrication of much of my nomination, by Personalwiki97, who has now been blocked by admin User:JBW. Some of the Keep !votes are either by single-purpose accounts or by sockpuppets.

I think that the deletion discussion is under control again. I am not requesting any assistance beyond what User:JBW has already provided. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:26, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I saw something like this last year. MER-C 20:01, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

There's definitely socking here. I'll dig through the CU results and throw together an SPI for future reference.-- Jezebel's Ponyo 20:31, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Insta ioanna and note the link to Delivery Hero, it's the same UPE sockfarm behind both articles.-- Jezebel's Ponyo 20:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Help

Please block the vandal who vandalizes my discussion page, leaving death wishes in Ukrainian. I also ask you to completely block the IP address of Kyivstar where this vandal is vandalizing. And also clean up the stories on my discussion page. Thanks. --Jphwra (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

The user seems to have already been blocked indefinitely by Ponyo. — curiousGolden 20:33, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt proxying article creation for community-banned user LouisAlain

Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs) is currently proxying article creation for a community-banned user, LouisAlain (talk · contribs), by inviting them to edit her dewiki userspace at de:User:Gerda Arendt/LouisAlain and then taking their work as the base for article creations such as Frédéric Blanc.

I have collaborated with LouisAlain for 10 years, and a few admins representing "the community" won't stop me. My first GA was for for a blocked user, another GA was for a banned user. I am here for content, and I make what LouisAlain supplies, my own. Look above for his name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
— Gerda Arendt's response to the concerns

I'm very skeptical towards this, generally opposing the practice ("banned means banned"). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I replied on my talk. Would Misplaced Pages be better without the article Frédéric Blanc? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep the discussion in this central place and will copy your response below. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I was not understood in the AN thread. I said LouisAlain wasn't adding fake references, and wasn't understood. I said that Misplaced Pages should be thankful for his contributions and wasn't understood. I said that every editor is a human being, and wasn't understood. I better don't go. I strongly believe that Misplaced Pages would be better without the whole thread, which didn't promote kindness, and only one article afaik. I am here for the content, and when someone is willing to spare me the trouble of a translation, I am thankful. It's no dangerous new content, but content from a different Misplaced Pages made available here. The following is by a banned user. I am with the outcast.

Every day, we lose what the wrongly blocked would have given that day. And a little bit of our souls.

nb: User talk:Wehwalt#Sanddunes Sunrise

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Ah, so because your arguments in the ban discussion have not been "understood", the consensus can be ignored. That seems to be a pretty problematic approach to any discussion result. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh Gerda, this is incredibly foolish behaviour. This is essentially meat puppetry. I strongly suggest you very quickly confirm you will stop this and never repeat it, before you end up being blocked yourself... GiantSnowman 15:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I can somewhat understand where Gerda is coming from, but I'm baffled as to how they even thought that this was acceptable behaviour on Misplaced Pages, it should've been common sense. And using sentences such as "≥a few admins representing "the community" won't stop me" isn't very heartwarming either. — curiousGolden 16:00, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

LouisAlain is suppose to be using his talkpage only for getting unbanned, btw. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Talk page access should be revoked IMO. GiantSnowman 15:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

It seems they've been using it actively for anything but getting unbanned. — curiousGolden 16:00, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I've only looked at Frédéric Blanc and not any other Louis/Gerda collaborations, but Frédéric Blanc is a big WP:BLPVIO. The only real independent RS, as far as I can tell, is the ResMusica article. All the rest are blogs, except I think one might be his label (which is probably OK if that's what it is). If I spoke French I'd remove everything sourced to blogs and other non-RSes. I question what would be left and whether this organist meets notability criteria. But using blogs for a BLP... come on. Poor sourcing is what we had to ban Louis for. It's disappointing to see Gerda just charge on and repeat Louis's mistakes for him. Can we stop with the poorly-sourced BLPs please? Levivich 16:06, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not certain. But I think English Misplaced Pages prefers sources to be in english, too. GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

The general preference is described at "WP:NOENG" in the verifiability policy, but it primarily says that "Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Misplaced Pages". The quality of the sources, specifically if they're self-published, matters considerably more; see also WP:BLPSPS. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:22, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Ref. 3 is in English but does not support the statement it is attached to (and is not a RS anyway, and is not something we would call an acceptable source in 2021); none of the French references is a RS indeed except for Resmusica.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:53, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't really see what is the problem. If Gerda adds information provided to her by LouisAlain through other channels, Gerda vouches for it, and it is Gerda's responsibility if the information is correct. In my book, the information comes to English WP from Gerda.--Berig (talk) 16:23, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• No, that's wrong. WP:PROXYING is very clear. "Editors in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned or blocked editor unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits". Since the material originates from LouisAlain, it is not independent to Gerda. Gerda, please don't do this any more. Black Kite (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

OK, but it all boils down to personal responsibility. If the information is shown to be unreliable or wrong, the mistake will be attributed to Gerda, anyway.--Berig (talk) 16:41, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

No, that's not the point. At the moment LouisAlain is effectively creating articles at enwiki despite being banned for falsifying sources when creating articles. If, for example, Alain was pointing out factual errors in articles and inviting editors to fix them, that would be different, because any editor would have an obvious independent reason for doing so. Creating entire articles definitely does not fall under that caveat. Black Kite (talk) 16:44, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, who is currently busy, has asked me on my talk page to provide the following thoughts in this discussion. As I'm unsure how to completely neutrally take the arguments from the message without omitting something that may have been important, I'm copying our short discussion below. Again, I'd prefer the discussion to be centrally held here, not on user talk pages.

Perhaps a look by the community into the thread (which first suggested a topic ban, then had an admin block who had been insulted, blocking for lying which when inspected more closely was "lying by ommission", then a post-block question that was silenced, finally a "community ban" by how few admins?) might help - I don't know. I wanted to spare several users whom I all respect that trouble, but it's why I believe Misplaced Pages would have been better without that whole thread. - I worked on Kafka, DYK?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Now it's on three different pages, Gerda Arendt. The point about looking at the thread again, and perhaps something that was said after the closure, does seem to be a fine one to make at WP:AN. I'm not entirely sure if it is the revision you're referring to, but you could link to https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=1050192525#Fake_referencing , for example. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:03, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

You do that please. I'm busy real life. - RexxS simply left Misplaced Pages instead of going to arbcom. I miss him every day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

How familiar are you with that terrible thread? If you have little time just look at the rather short passage of Martinevens123 being called a troll for asking questions I also had. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

End of quoted content. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• If there's a problem with the material Gerda is introducing to en.wp, then it is upon those merits that she should be judged (or otherwise). This is not 100% blatant WP:PROXYING, which has to fulfil a number of criteria:

1. To be at the direction of a banned or blocked editor—emphasis in original;
2. The edits must be verifiable;
3. and they have independent reasons for making such edits;
4. And, of course, finally, that editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content.It occurs to me, re. point 1, that GA can hardly be said to have been at the 'direction' of LA, since the material is subject to her editorship (and, yes, per WP:BUILDWP, I think we do need to take the strictest interpretation of the word, otherwise we end up in a place where what we can say becomes dependent on whether a banned user has said it before)).Re. point 2, the sourcing may be poor, but as long as they pass V, then it's a separate issue (perhaps BLPVIO, as noted above) and distinct to WP:PROXYING.The third point, that she must have her own discrete reasons for making the edits is pretty comprehensively accounted for by, err, almost everything she has ever written for this bloody project being about singers, songs and writers and especially Geman singers songs and writers.Finally, point 4, is pretty clear that as long as one takes responsibility for one's edits—including, in this instance, e.g. of BLP sourcing—then it should stand. Indeed, even the previous section of the policy, cited by the OP—WP:BMB—notes that a banned editor's edits may be allowed to stay if they are deemed productive. It would see, perverse in the extreme to misread policy to such an extent that (very theoretically!) allow a banned editor to fix typos, but disallow an extremely experienced content creator to to re-write pages.All that said, Gerda, I kind of agree that sometimes your use of language can be sufficiently opaque as to, perhaps, not make things as easy for you as they might otherwise be in these dscussions  :) ——Serial 16:43, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• I'm going to disagree with you, which is unusual. this is the contents of Gerda's sandbox which LouisAlain was editing. This is what Gerda copied to enwiki. So, effectively a banned user is creating articles here. Black Kite (talk) 16:57, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  That's misleading, as Gerda immediately started editing the page and improving it.Jackattack1597 (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Gerda, a nonchalant approach, may not be the best way here. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• This is a clear violation of policy. The text of WP:IAR notwithstanding (which Gerda seems to be relying on when she discusses "making content"), WP:BMB (and corollaries, such as WP:G5) have been enforced strictly exactly to dissuade the banned user from the notion that they should be contributing while banned. Even ignoring policy, the proxying in this case entirely violates the spirit of the ban. Specifically, the LouisAlain discussion went on for a while and editors were keen to find alternate solutions to a site ban, such as the offer by an editor for LA to write in his userspace and then having someone else check over and take responsibility for the article when moving to mainspace; LouisAlain decided that option wasn't acceptable to him. Ultimately he was banned.What Gerda is doing is functionally equivalent to what was offered to him (although it's unclear whether Gerda is checking the articles) and was likely to obtain consensus, but LA declined, and eventually was banned as the status quo was too problematic and LA was unwilling to change his approach in any way, instead he chose to write long soliloquies about Early modern European witch-hunts. If LouisAlain wants to try avail that opportunity again, he should submit a ban appeal to the community. Otherwise, a single editor can't just overrule the consensus in the ban discussion. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:07, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Before the pitchfork mob succeeds in getting a good editor blocked, I'll urge careful thought about this situation. Gerda is focused on content here and I've known her to take on responsibility for problematic editors' content many times in the past (Francis Schonken being another recent example). She's never said she doesn't take responsibility for the quality. --Laser brain (talk) 17:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  (I'm definitely not asking for a block at this point; I doubt others are. This is an attempt to find an explicit consensus against the current behavior, and I'm hopeful that the provocative "won't stop me" response wasn't a final answer.) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  A block for Gerda at this stage? No - and definitely not if Gerda acknowledges their conduct here has been wrong and promises that they won't do it again. If it does happen again then a block will unfortunately be necessary. Immediate action I would like to happen (the sooner the better) is for LouisAlan to have talk page access revoked ASAP. GiantSnowman 17:57, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  The requested talk page access revocation has silently already happened 15:50, 6 November 2021. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:57, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  Grand. Hopefully Gerda will offer the assurances required... GiantSnowman 18:00, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  Laser Brain, I don't see a "good editor being blocked" if said good editor thinks it's a good idea to proxy for an editor rightly blocked for basic fundamentally incompatibility with Misplaced Pages's core referencing principles. I see "an editor being blocked so the rest of us don't have to clean up their messes", which in general people seem way to happy to leave as "someone else's problem" (c.f. how tough it is to get people blocked for repeated and blatant copyright violations or plagiarism.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 19:07, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  I take your point and agree. Mine was only to exercise caution as I've seen too many of these threads cause more damage to the involved editors than they prevent. --Laser brain (talk) 21:17, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• I am wondering why the banned user is not working to get unbanned instead of getting someone to proxy for them? I'm no expert but this case seems to be clear proxying to me. 331dot (talk) 19:32, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
• I mean, its as blatant a proxy as you can get. But thats beside the point, even if every editor and admin extended the various policies to their most relaxed and effectively treated Gerda's proxy edits for Alain as Gerda's own, what we are left with is Gerda is creating content with similar sourcing problems that got Alain sanctioned. If this continues (which I hope Gerda takes note from the above that it absolutely should not) we are essentially left in a situation where we either have to apply the same sanction for the same behaviour, or admit that some editors get preferential treatment. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Agree 100%. And combined with her defiant comment that "a few admins representing "the community" won't stop me" I'd say this situation is clearly actionable. Jusdafax (talk) 21:49, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Wait, what? Gerda can make a proxy edit if she takes ownership of it. Wanting material to be on Misplaced Pages is a sufficient independent reason. It's not like he was banned for harassment. If Gerda is willing to take the time to scrutinize the content to make sure there aren't the problems he was banned for, who loses? This all seems like it should come down to "Gerda, do you understand that you're taking responsibility for these edits, and that if they are found to be problematic (like for the reasons Alain was blocked), then you will also be sanctioned or blocked?" Then she'll say yes, and anyone who wants to sanction Gerda can find problems with the proxied content just like any other content. — Rhododendrites \\ 22:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, I read "at the direction of a banned or blocked editor unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits" and thought, well Gerda isn't being directed by a banned/blocked user, she is simply taking material, some of which may have been suggested, and then taking ownership of it, responsibility for it, and has more than satisfactory reasons for making such edits (e.g. to improve Misplaced Pages). Some users here appear to be on a proper witch-hunt, most distasteful. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Gerda is helping a blocked user, who was blocked "for falsifying sources when creating articles", create new articles with the same sourcing problems as pointed out by other users above. She might be doing it to improve Misplaced Pages, but it's totally against the spirit of the ban. If Alain wants to create new articles, they should've tried appealing their ban. — curiousGolden 22:29, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

When I asked at AN/I, I was told he was blocked for "lying by omission" about machine translation, which just about tallies with what his block log says. But maybe the blocking admin would like to clarify exactly why LA was blocked. I agree with everything that The Rambling Man has said in this thread about Gerda's efforts. But I am reluctant to contribute any further in case I'm once again accused of "trolling". Martinevans123 (talk) 23:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

She is not being directed per the policy. And moreover, if there are issues with sourcing, that's a completely different issue from this supposed "proxying" debate. If Gerda creates articles continually which are poorly sourced, then start a discussion about that. Do you think Alain is directing Gerda? Do you honestly believe that?! Of course, if there's an issue with understanding the meaning of "directing", that's for a new discussion to modify the policy. Is suggesting the same as directing? I don't think so. YMMV of course, depending on how keen you are to take someone down. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I've never interacted with neither of these people, however giving a blocked user a space (in this case, Gerda's German wiki sandbox) to write up articles and then creating them in another language wiki for them (directed or not, it's mostly text that a blocked user wrote) seems problematic. Especially when Alain was banned for an article-creation related issues. I'm not proposing any sanction for Gerda, however she should stop continuing this behaviour. — curiousGolden 22:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Well I disagree. Unless you have a policy-based argument for it, I'd suggest there's no harm here, indeed it's even a benefit to Misplaced Pages for Gerda to write these articles, assuming they meet our usual policies (and a discussion on that is not for this thread). If there's an issue with the understanding of directed then seek a change to the policy which makes it clear. Right now, as far as I'm concerned, Gerda is not being directed to do anything. So it's all a bit moot, right? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:54, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• There was a previous similar instance, where a user was posting on their talk page and other users who thought something might be a good edit would implement. A discussion came out as no-consensus - the "at the direction" is the relevant bit here. Now I still think it is unwise, especially given the reason the user was blocked, but it is not quite clearcut breach of the proxying restriction. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:32, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
• I strongly agree with the tenor of editors above like User:Rhododendrites, User:The Rambling Man, User:Serial Number 54129, and User:Berig: this is not misconduct on Gerda's part, so long as she is taking responsibility for the content added. However, in an abundance of caution, I propose a compromise. Build these articles in draft space and submit it for review by an uninvolved and impartial AFC reviewer. BD2412 T 22:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) My understanding of WP:PROXY is similar to OID, Rhododendrites, and TRM: the editor posting the information is responsible for it. If there are problems with the content Gerda adds, she will be sanctioned for it as the responsible party. I'm perfectly fine with that state of affairs and think appeals to WP:BMB are spurious. Whether he is making good or bad edits doesn't really matter because he isn't making edits. Gerda is making edits, and if there are problems with the content then we can handle it like any other disruptive editing. Is it s good idea to be doing this? Absolutely not, but I'm not going to get worked up over this without some evidence of concrete problems. — Wug·a·po·des​ 22:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  Levivich and I provided this evidence above in this thread.--Ymblanter (talk) 23:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  It seems you pointed out some verifiability problems, which besets all of us from time to time. Is this directly related to the accusastions proxying or are you conflating the two ideas? You (both/either) are welcome to lodge a complaint against Gerda for supposed repeated violations of WP:V I suppose. Would you prefer to do that? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  My point is that we got a substandard article which might have difficulties to survive AfD, and this is being sold as "making encyclopedia better". Most likely it happened because Gerda did not check the article she was posting. This is not really acceptable.--Ymblanter (talk) 23:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  But which aspect? The getting text and suggestions from a banned user, or submitting an article which "might have difficulties to survive AfD"?? I mean, come on, that sounds lame already. As I noted above, if the sum total of all this witch hunt is that Gerda needs to be more thorough per WP:V, fine. But right now that's not the main thrust here, is it? Feels like a few villagers got their flaming torches out (which they'd been keeping on standby) and came out screeching at the first chance. I suggest this thread is closed with a suggestion to Gerda that she takes more time over verifying sources when she, herself, commits to adding material to en.wiki. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  I didn't mean to imply that no one had serious concerns or worthwhile evidence, just that the basis of a report should be those things and the basis of this report was not that. The OP was about how to interpret PROXY and my comment should be taken in that context. I'll admit to not having read everything; I've had my fill of sprawling user conduct threads for the week so I haven't exactly gone digging through the article Levivich mentioned, but I think it would be more productive to make a separate report than have it all burried in a thread on a tangentially related topic. — Wug·a·po·des​ 02:09, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Now that @Gerda Arendt: is back from the opera. Let's give her a chance to defend herself, here. GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay seems pretty clear to me that there's nothing for her to "defend herself" against. Why would you adopt such battleground language? (and editing a ping doesn't make it re-ping.... WP:CIR). The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:44, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Direct your WP:CIR gun in another direction. GoodDay (talk) 00:50, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I have to say that in 11+ years, I've yet to see a non-constructive edit from Gerda and I don't think hamstringing one of our more prolific creators of content--quality content, too, not just a churning out of stubs--is to the benefit of the project. As expounded above, if Gerda is making these edits and creating these articles, then she's taking responsibility for them and Alain's involvement feels moot. If there are problems in any of this work, it certainly isn't systematic, and I doubt any of us who engage heavily in content creation can hold up our hands and say we've never misinterpreted a source in error, or created an article which jumped the gun on notability, we're human and it happens. Sanctions of any kind here are simply throwing out far more baby than bathwater. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 23:56, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Oh, come on! A BLP based on blogs? What is wrong some of you people being like, "Hey, it can happen to any one of us!" No, no it can't. That's not an accident. That's negligence or incompetence. What the actual fuck, yo. It's a new BLP! Levivich 00:01, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
    • Unimpressive Levivich, very unimpressive. Did you read the title of this section? What are you trying to hang Gerda for? Proxying? Poor sourcing? It's unclear. You're mystifying. And that, as noted elsewhere about your recent edits, is unimpressive. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm not saying everything she's written is perfect but I also don't believe any of us can say the same. What I am saying is that I don't believe these are linked issues; if I or TRM or you or anyone else wrote our next article with subpar sourcing, would it be linked to our last dispute or would it be resolved at the article level? Gerda is clearly capable of writing well-sourced and valuable content, is my point, and I would rather we kept an editor producing content even if it meant fixing some problems. I think TRM is right in saying that this feels like conflating issues for the sake of piling on. As I said, if Gerda is making these edits and creating these articles, then she's taking responsibility for them. If you're unhappy with sourcing on a BLP article, remove the content--I'm always happy to defend to removal rather than tagging of unverified content, for example, or taking something to AFD if it can't stand up when unsatisfactory sources are removed. But do articles like this make up the majority, or even a large minority, of Gerda's work, or are we shining a large spotlight on a smaller number of them just in light of the connection with Alain? ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 00:28, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
      • Poor sourcing, and how could that possibly be unclear? Some people are like "well Gerda is taking responsibility for it, so unless there are problems," and then you show them a BLP based on blogs, and they're like, "well, it could happen to any of us!" I say again: come on. This is exactly the response we got when some of us complained about the same problem from Louis. I ask again: what is wrong with some people, willing to tolerate one editor proxying for another editor and creating a BLP based on blogs??? Anyway that's the end of my outrage on this topic. Levivich 00:06, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
        • Phew, thank goodness for that. Perhaps we can now focus on this thread which purports to be about an alleged proxying issue. If Gerda is creating content which needs improved sourcing, let's make that the recommendation. But that's not what this is all about here. Perhaps a little bit of WP:CIR for the torch-wielding locals perhaps? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:09, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
          • That's exactly what this is all about here. Louis was banned for repeatedly making poorly-sourced articles, and now Gerda is copying his poorly-sourced articles onto Misplaced Pages. BLPs! That's what this is all about. Oy vey. Levivich 00:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
            • So just ask Gerda to improve her verifiability. Ov vey indeed. Get a grip. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:26, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
              • Ask an editor who's been here for 12 years and made 286,000 edits to not make BLPs with blog sources? And you're telling me to get a grip? :-) Levivich 00:46, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
                • In all sincerity, have you asked? Or is this just a triple-conflated pile-on with added flaming pitch-forks? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:47, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
                  • In all sincerity, have you forgotten the ANI thread that led to Louis's ban? It was like a month of discussing this exact issue--poor sourcing, with examples from Loui's work, with Gerda being the #1 defender-in-chief. Like this conversation that you and I are having right now, is the conversation Gerda and I had about Louis--just change the names around. Imagine if, a month hence, you made a BLP at Louis's direction request, and it had a bunch of blog sources. I mean, should I even have to ask you to improve your sourcing? Should anyone have to ask a 12-year, 200,000-edit editor to please not make BLPs with blogs? Or should I not even have to ask? Cuz I don't think I should have to ask. It's not an innocent mistake; Gerda is obviously not checking the sources because there's no way someone with that much experience just didn't notice that there were like half a dozen blogs, all but one were obviously non-RS, and I don't even speak French and I can tell that. I don't know how Gerda missed the blog sources, but it doesn't matter... it's well below the minimum expectation for any non-newbie editor. I'm not saying Gerda should be blocked or banned or anything, but I am saying that this is a 100% serious, reasonable concern, not to be dismissed. Levivich 00:52, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
                    • Honestly, you think I lurk around ANI like other users here, ingesting all the vitriol and hate? No, I do not. I'm not even seeing Louis making requests, let alone direction, merely suggestions, but that's for Gerda to clarify. The basic issue here is that this thread starts about proxying, and has since descended into pathetic minutiae about lack of sourcing which can be dealt with elsewhere. This is terribly sad and a poor reflection on those who are striving to perpetuate the issues, both here and at other venues simultaneously. Poor form. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
                      • Honestly, yes. You're here now, aren't you? Levivich 01:01, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
                        • What are you talking about? Good night Levivich. A little bit less "oy vey" and little bit more "actual thinking" and we might get along some time. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 01:07, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

  Seriously, Grapple, never? Perhaps you don’t follow arb cases? This is typical of long-standing behaviors of Gerda’s seen in other areas, and whether she stops when asked is a whole ‘nother topic. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:09, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

  Who follows arb cases? Endless, tireless, relentless and usually incompetently-handled drama carnivals which take months and consume far too much community resource. As for "This is typical of long-standing behaviors of Gerda’s seen in other areas", that feels like a bit of passive aggression, and is unhelpful in the resolution this particular issue. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

  • • Perhaps you don’t follow arb cases—Honestly I do deliberately avoid them so I'm willing to plead ignorance here; I see Gerda's editing mostly around DYK submissions and at WP:GAN and that's what I would hate for us to hinder. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 00:28, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
      • @Grapple X: hey, look, we're on the same side of an issue! BD2412 T 00:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

      I sympathize, Grapple; it happens that the associated problems frequently pop on my watchlist, per FA involvement, so they are hard to avoid knowing about. Gerda, I recommend taking a closer look at your relationships with a number of editors, past and present, who have interesting account histories, as a way to avoid these kinds of problems. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

If I understand Black Kite's claim, a banned user is creating non-policy compliant content in one of Gerda's sandboxes, and Gerda is than copying banned user's non-policy compliant edits to main space, and the user was banned for creating content that does not meet policy? If that is so, that does seem like Gerda is taking direction. The banned user's edits in the sandbox can only be done under the banned user's free content license, and Gerda can only be copying the banned user's edits to main under the banned user's free content license, repeating the non-policy compliant content. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Is she being directed? Can you prove that? Or is she just taking material and using it (in general) for the betterment of Misplaced Pages (sourcing issues not withstanding)? This is proper lawyering territory now and it's abundantly clear that the policy needs rewording to avoid this malaise in future. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

If Black Kite correct and she is copying -- it has to be, it's directly attributable to the banned user, it's his license and it is his content, and Gerda can only copy it under his license. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:25, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

So that has literally nothing to do with being "directed"? We're onto attribution now? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:48, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

It is about direction, the banned user directs the edits, they are his edits under his license, which are then must be copied under his license. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:02, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I think your definition of "directs" is different from mine. If I wrote some stuff somewhere and someone else thought "oh that looks good, I'll use that", I would not consider that to be direction. If I wrote some stuff somewhere and said to someone "you need to add this to Misplaced Pages", that would be direction. That's what "directors" do. they tell people what to do, they're in charge. This is clearly not the case here. Or do you think Gerda is being told what to do? Do you think that? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 01:13, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

What Black Kite suggested is it looks like Gerda arraigned to take his direction on edits. He edits under his license to her sandbox, and she then copies his edits under his license. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

• The interpretation taken by some editors above is equivalent to just deleting WP:PROXYING altogether. If all you need to do to evade that policy is say you have an “independent reason” which is “improving the encyclopaedia”, I guess we can start proxying for any banned editor. It’s tantamount to unbanning every banned editor and putting them on user-based pending changes instead; as long as someone else approves the edit, you’re good to go (?) (IIRC this idea was once proposed at VPI and soundly rejected) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:16, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

  It's nothing other than reading the policy. Gerda isn't under "direction". That's patently absurd. If you don't like the "interpretation", I'd suggest re-factoring the policy so it's clear. What makes this even more absurd is that if Gerda just received all these suggestions via email from LouisAlain, that'd be deemed 100% perfecto because it's outside the "remit" of Wikimedia. You guys need to get out more. Is this damaging Misplaced Pages? No. Should Gerda do more for WP:V? Yes. Okay, next. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:23, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

  • By proxying for a user who has been banned by the community Gerda is showing contempt for the community. If this was an IP who did this, or an ordinary editor, then they would have been blocked. This is another demonstration that Misplaced Pages still has a group of superusers who think that the rules do not apply to them.Nigel Ish (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
    • That's awfully dramatic. But yes, we would block an IP because it would probably be a sock/meatpuppet. This is an area where it's important that it be an experienced user who can follow the requirements at WP:PROXYING. — Rhododendrites \\ 00:24, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
  • ?? No, WP:PROXYING is where we point to to be clear that proxying isn't allowed unless you make sure x, y, z and take responsibility for them. I'd modify what you said: "The interpretation taken by some editors above is equivalent to just deleting all but the first clause of the first sentence of WP:PROXYING." — Rhododendrites \\ 00:22, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    Are you saying that such a thing can be done by plagiarism, and copying another's work without attribution. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    AHA!! Add another conflation: ATTRIBUTION! The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:34, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    No. Assuming you're reading that into my use of "take responsibility for," that only means "if it's bad, it's your fault, not theirs"; it's not about copyright/attribution. — Rhododendrites \\ 00:36, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    But the claim is she is copying the banned user's work into main space, and the "bad" is what she is copying. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:41, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    So, as said many many times, Gerda needs to improve the sourcing. Next. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:43, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    I don't know what argument you're making. — Rhododendrites \\ 00:44, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    It is about copying the edits of a banned user, from a page where the banned user directs those edits, which she then copies to main space. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:51, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

    I see your use of "directs" there. It's not, it's where they "make" those edits. Stop trying to be too clever here. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 01:00, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

• Is she under "direction"? Prove it. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:23, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
  • No idea what definition of the term you’re personally using. What would you consider ‘actual’ proxying, and what do you consider ‘being under direction’ to mean? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:33, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
    • Under direction means she's being told to do it. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:34, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
      • So what’s an example of what you would consider ‘actual’ proxying? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:39, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
        • Using a proxy account to make edits? Is it that complex? I was once blocked by one of the might cadre of admins for restoring a message to my talkpage which had been removed as I was accused of "proxying for a banned editor". It's a load of nonsense and needs fixing. This situation is just another example of how poorly worded policy gets the place into a meltdown. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:42, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
          • What do you consider a “proxy account”? Sorry for the successive questions, just trying to make sense of exactly what you’re saying here. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:44, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
            • An account created with the sole purpose of evading a ban or a block. Is that clearer? And please, retain focus on the policy wording. I didn't write it, and it's obvious that it's shambolic, as this thread demonstrates. Take it out on the policy, not innocent bystanders. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 00:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
              • Your personal interpretation is quite relevant. Wiki policy isn’t written by lawyers; if you interpret the prose a certain way obviously that makes it impossible to ever violate a policy. It seems to me that you view WP:PROXYING as a redundant duplicate of the Sockpuppetry policy at WP:SOCK. So it does seem the problem here is in your interpretation. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
                • Not really. The problem here is the policy wording, as evidenced throughout this thread. I mean, if you'd bothered reading WP:PROXYING, you'd understand it's full of holes big enough to drive tanks through. Thanks for the chance to explain though, much appreciated. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 01:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

• Suggestion - if you want WP:PROXYING to have more teeth or just want it to be clearer (that there are multiple experienced people saying that it is clear in directly contradictory ways means it probably could be clearer), then maybe let's move the discussion to Misplaced Pages talk:Banning policy or WP:VPP. If you think that Gerda bears responsibility for problematic edits, focus on that. Preferably that would be at the article talk page, but at very least separate it here from those arguments condemning her actions just for the fact of proxying, regardless of the quality of the edits. — Rhododendrites \\ 00:29, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
• Editors in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned or blocked editor ... unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits. Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content - The content of this paragraph and its meaning are all that matters. Despite the few comments that this material is vague or unclear, it is not. The policy provides exceptions for an otherwise prohibited action. You are prohibited from posting or editing material at the direction of a banner or blocked user unless – that is to say except if – it improves the encyclopedia and you have your own reasons for making those edits. This also means that Gerda could even do so under explicit instruction. The latter prerequisite is addressed sufficiently by an editor being here, specifically with 'a genuine interest in improving encyclopedic content'. In theory, at least, all editors are supposed to be here. The former prerequisite being met is disputed by Levivich and Ymblanter. Those are the only concerns levied in this entire thread that have so much as the potential for merit. They can be addressed at this juncture, if deemed necessary, by making it clear that Gerda is responsible for edits she makes in co-operation with LouisAlain. There is no cause, per the policy, to prohibit Gerda from continuing to be here. Those wishing to restrict her available avenues of hereness, may investigate their own motives for it. I am going so suggest one: you might just be upset that your ban didn't unperson LouisAlain. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:02, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

  I can only speak for myself, but this is in no construable way "my" ban. I was not even aware of the editor's existence. Yet I feel pretty strongly that if the community has banned someone, a single person who "takes over" the behavior with misguided compassion for the oh-so-poor banned user is, independently of policy wording, insulting the community with their behavior. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:20, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

There's a good deal of heat and not a lot of light; certain editors need to dial it back. I want to state at the outset that I've collaborated with Gerda on some articles in the past and enjoyed those collaborations. I hope I'm able to do that again in the future. Now let me say this: Louis Alain was banned from the English Misplaced Pages, and not that long ago. He was banned for being unresponsive to concerns about poor sourcing and machine translations. Gerda objected to this course of action, but her views did not carry the day. Now, the accusation here, not really refuted, is that Gerda is taking Louis Alain's articles from a wiki on which he is not banned and publishing them on the English Misplaced Pages. It's further alleged, and appears to be the case, that these articles also suffer from poor-quality sourcing. Some of these (all?) are BLPs.

Leave aside all these technical questions of which policies might or might not be in play. We don't need to get into the weeds here. Writing BLPs with poor-quality sources is a bad idea even if you're not doing it in collaboration with a user who was banned for that very reason from this project. It shows astonishingly poor judgment, especially considering that Gerda isn't some new user. She's been here forever. She knows better. I'm not interested in sanctions, because I have the expectation that Gerda will reconsider her approach to this matter. If she wants to help Louis Alain this isn't the way to do it. Mackensen (talk) 02:25, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

User with 348k+ edits blocked for copyvio

I have indefinitely partially blocked User:Werldwayd, who has over 348,000+ edits and 290,000+ edits to mainspace for copyright violations; they were legitimately warned 13 times since 2009 before I blocked them today; more background can be seen at User talk:Werldwayd#Blocked. I've opened an investigation into their edits at Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/Werldwayd, which hasn't been filled out with their edits yet- when it is, I would appreciate it if others could help sort through the mountain of edits. Given my previous posting here on the matter of dealing with copyright violations, and the extent of them in this case, I am posting this here so the communities eyes are on it. Moneytrees🏝️ 22:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest starting with their ~1,000 most edited pages, which account for ~89,000 of those edits. BD2412 T 22:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

2021 Arbitration Committee elections: nominations now open

Somehow, it is already that time of year again. Eligible editors are invited to nominate themselves as candidates in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections. The nomination phase will end at 23:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC). Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 01:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Often considered running, but no. Not giving up any personal info, to do it. GoodDay (talk) 01:34, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

You don't really need to give up personal info unless you have an account you'd need to disclose. You can sign the NDA with your Misplaced Pages username. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:08, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Barkeep49, Footnote A from the nomination page does say "Provide contact and identification information", though the Access to nonpublic personal data policy does not appear to require any ID info. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:14, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Also, this year there are eight vacant seats: see WP:ACE2021#Vacant seats for more details. Mz7 (talk) 01:35, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards