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List of Napoleonic battles
TL;DR version: lets make this page a DP named Lists of battles of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars
, and create separate battle lists for each of the wars according to the List of battles of the War of the First Coalition model.
Explanation: I just ran into this list, I have never seen it before. It's interesting, but I'm not sure if this is the best way to present this information. Because I've been writing lists of battles for each of the Coalition Wars, there are large WP:OVERLAPs now. If I had found this list sooner, I would probably have done things differently. So I'm afraid we'll have to make some though decisions.
I've been working on the following lists:
- List of battles of the War of the First Coalition (published 31 January 2020)
- List of battles of the War of the Second Coalition (published 22 February 2022)
- List of battles of the War of the Third Coalition (published today, 19 November 2022)
Let's do the semantics first. Strictly speaking, 'Napoleonic Wars' refers to the Wars of the Third to the Seventh Coalition (1803/5-1815), while the Wars of the First and Second Coalition are known as the French Revolutionary Wars (1792-1801/2); that means only my Third Coalition list overlaps with the Napoleonic battles list. However, Napoleon seized power in France with the Coup of 18 Brumaire (9 November 1799), so an argument could also be made that all battles afterwards are already counted as 'Napoleonic'. Even more broadly speaking, this project has a Napoleonic era task force whose scope extends "from c. 1792 to c. 1815" (somewhat fair, as Napoleon already rose to fame during the First and Second Wars, seizing power during the Second, although he really played no nationally prominent role until 13 Vendémiaire in 1795). The question then is how broad 'Napoleonic' is, and if it doesn't encompass the entire 1792-1815 period, where should we draw the line? As someone said at Talk:List of Napoleonic battles, perhaps List of battles of the Napoleonic Wars
is a better name, which would draw the line at 1803/1805 (wherever you want to pinpoin the start of the War of the Third Coalition). Another thing that has also been noted in Coalition Wars is that some wars in this 1792-1815 period were 'French Revolutionary' or 'Napoleonic' wars, but not 'Coalition Wars', such as the French invasion of Switzerland, so there may be reasons not to lump them all together under the same headings.
Let's do the size and practicalness and navigation issues second. The current Napoleonic battles list doesn't even come close to including all battles of the entire 1792-1815 period: e.g. it has no battles from 1792 or 1795, just 1 battle from 1793, just 2 battles from 1794, and just 3 battles from 1797 (compare 'my' List of battles of the War of the First Coalition). But if we were to throw them all together, this list would probably become way WP:TOOLONG. Perhaps it's simply more practical for size and nagivation purposes to have separate battle lists for each of the wars. Then it would make sense to make this a DP with a name like ListS of battles of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars
, and then redirect readers to more specific lists.
Let's do list format third. The format of my three Coalition Wars battle lists so far has been based on common conventions for "List of wars involving "-type lists: a sortable wikitable with the parameters Date, Battle, Front (indicating the region or modern-day country where the battle and/or campaign took place), French forces, Coalition forces, and Notes (including the result of the battle, and perhaps other relevant notes such as 'King Louis XVI captured' (during the Insurrection of 10 August 1792). 'List of Napoleonic battles' has a very odd format that I have not seen anywhere else, however: Today's location of the battle, its name and date, French leader, Coalition leader. The latter two colums are subdivided by 'Victory' and 'Defeat' columns every time, and includes a rather random sample of commanders on each side. The list is not sortable, and it would need a lot of fixing to make it sortable. It oddly adds the national flag of the country in which the place of battle is currently located (irrelevant and misleading), even for naval battles. Below the table, there is yet another list with a random sample of 'Napoleonic battles' (again with very few early 1790s battles) in alphabetical order (unlike the table, which is in chronological order). I don't really see the point in having two separate lists. Especially if we've got a sortable wikitable (as in the Coalition Wars lists), the reader can sort them in any order they like. I would humbly suggest that the Coalition Wars sortable wikitable lists are much more convenient to use, and also to edit (that's probably why this sort of model has been widely adopted by "List of wars involving "-type lists).
Finally, let's talk sourcing. 'List of Napoleonic battles' is WP:UNSOURCED. Admittedly, my Coalition Wars lists are not extensively sourced either, but how strict do we want our standards for these lists to be? Apart from perhaps which belligerent to award the victory to (which in my lists is simply copied from what the 'Result' parameter in each infobox of each battle page says), and debates about periodisation and which campaigns to include or exclude, do we need extensive referencing for each and every claim? What are the sourcing conventions for lists of battles within MILHIST?
I'm curious to know your thoughts about this. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- PS: I now see that the reason some pre-1803 battles have been included in 'List of Napoleonic battles' such as Siege of Toulon (1793) appears to be the fact that Napoleon personally took part in them as commander of the French forces. That means it duplicates Military career of Napoleon Bonaparte#Battle record summary. But as post-1803 also include battles fought by other French commanders, there seems to be a mixing of 'battles involving Napoleon' and 'battles of the Napoleonic Wars', which are overlapping but not the same sets of items in a Venn diagram. As a result, 'Napoleonic' means two different things lumped together. We should unweave them. I think it's clear now that the current situation is untenable. I'm gonna do some WP:BOLD edits, but I remain open to suggestions and alternative solutions. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:26, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've published the List of battles of the War of the Fourth Coalition. List of Napoleonic battles#War of the Fourth Coalition has thus been superseded by a better list. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:41, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- I just discovered Timeline of the Peninsular War. This evidently superseeds List of Napoleonic battles#Peninsular War. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Published List of battles of the War of the Fifth Coalition. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Published List of battles of the War of the Sixth Coalition. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Published List of battles of the Hundred Days and List of battles of the French invasion of Russia. The process of converting this into a list of lists is now fully completed. Some wars still don't have a list of battles article, but that's alright. Anyone could create it now based on what we've got in categories, campaignboxes and main articles. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:48, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- Published List of battles of the War of the Sixth Coalition. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Published List of battles of the War of the Fifth Coalition. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- I just discovered Timeline of the Peninsular War. This evidently superseeds List of Napoleonic battles#Peninsular War. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've published the List of battles of the War of the Fourth Coalition. List of Napoleonic battles#War of the Fourth Coalition has thus been superseded by a better list. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:41, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
1940s chemical weapons in southern Africa
I have just added a new section to Chemical weapons and the United Kingdom, talking about production in South Africa and a (proposed but never carried out) test in Botswana, and I'd appreciate it if an expert could have a look. This came out of work on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office migrated archives article, which was the context the story was published in, and I was trying to find a better home for it.
It's all a little odd: the sources seem reliable enough (two newspaper stories in reputable publications outlining a recent archive release; the archive material is not online but the title definitely bears it all out) but it seems to have gone unnoticed outside the Bechuanaland/Botswana colonial files. It seems to indicate both a new strand of the UK program that was not previously mentioned in its article, plus an earlier SA program not mentioned in South Africa and weapons of mass destruction - which feels like quite a big thing! I'm not sure whether to add it in there or not, and it would be useful to know if any of the specialised sources mention it. Andrew Gray (talk) 13:27, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- There were a few of these tests around the world during the war. Mustard gas was tested in Australia as part of a joint Australia-UK-US program for instance: . Nick-D (talk) 09:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Nick-D thanks - good to know this isn't quite as out-there as it originally sounded! Andrew Gray (talk) 12:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Archival source looks legitimate. Seems entirely possible. David Underdown works at the National Archives, but isn't editing frequently. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:29, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Nick-D thanks - good to know this isn't quite as out-there as it originally sounded! Andrew Gray (talk) 12:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Royal Navy ships serving before and after 1801
There is a conversation at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships#Royal_Navy_ships_serving_both_before_and_after_1801 regarding what should be put in the infoboxes of these ships. The project does not appear have its own guidelines for this. --Ykraps (talk) 07:29, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Nominations for military historian of the year for 2022 are open!
Military historian
of the year 2022
-
First place
-
Second place
-
Third place
As we approach the end of the year, it is time for us to nominate the editors whom we believe have made a real difference to the project. As part of the first step to determining this year's "Military Historian of the Year" award, all Milhist editors are invited to nominate those that they feel deserve a nod of appreciation for their hard work over the past 12 months. The nomination process will commence on 00:01 (UCT) on 1 December 2022 and last until 23:59 (UCT) on 15 December 2022. As the awards process is one of simple approval, opposes are deprecated. After that a new thread will be created and a voting period of will commence on 00:01 16 December 2022 during which editors will be able to cast their simple approval vote for up to three of the nominees. At the end of this period on 23:59 30 December 2022, the top three editors will be awarded the Gold, Silver and Bronze Wiki respectively; all other nominees will receive the WikiProject Barnstar. Please nominate editors below this line, including links in the nomination statement to the most significant articles/lists/images editors have worked on since 1 January 2022. Please keep nomination statements short and concise; excluding links to the articles/list/images in question, the ideal nomination statement should be about 20 words. Self nominations are frowned upon. Please do not vote until the nominations have been finalized. Thanks, and good luck! For all the coordinators, Hog Farm Talk 00:38, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- CPA-5 - for consistently writing a number of high-quality and actionable reviews, as can be demonstrated by going through our log of promoted A-Class nominations. Hog Farm Talk 14:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Djmaschek - for writing a large number of quality articles to fill gaps in our coverage of the American Civil War. See Sanders' Knoxville Raid and 13th and 20th Consolidated Louisiana Infantry Regiment. Hog Farm Talk 14:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Gog the Mild - for providing high-quality coverage of major topics such as Second War of Scottish Independence and Second Punic War. Hog Farm Talk 14:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7 - for both solid content writing and running the valuable MILHISTBot. Hog Farm Talk 19:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Pickersgill-Cunliffe - For improving and expanding our coverage of 18th and 19th century naval topics. See Charles Richardson (Royal Navy officer) and Narcissus-class frigate. Hog Farm Talk 19:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Zawed - for writing and improving a number of articles related to our coverage of New Zealand military personnel. See Keith Taylor-Cannon and Stanley Browne. Hog Farm Talk 14:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hog Farm - for work in the American Civil War field, e.g. Battle of Lake Providence, and also for contributions in article reviewing and quality assessment. Zawed (talk) 06:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- Robinvp11 - for work on topics pertaining to the English Civil War, e.g. Thomas Rainsborough, and later periods in English history. Zawed (talk) 06:43, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- Catlemur - for work on topics, ranging from conflicts in Africa, e.g. Basuto Gun War, to engagements in the Greek Civil War, e.g. Battle of Agios Vasileios. Zawed (talk) 08:21, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Nominations for military history newcomer of the year for 2022 are open!
Military history newcomer of the year 2022
-
First place
-
Runners up
As we approach the end of the year, it is time for us to nominate the editors whom we believe have made a real difference to the project. In addition to the Military historian of the year, all Milhist editors are invited to nominate a promising newcomer that they feel deserves a nod of appreciation for their hard work over the past 12 months for the Military history newcomer of the year award. The award is open to any editor who has become active in military history articles in the last 12 months.
Like the Military Historian of the Year, the nomination process will begin at 00:01 (UTC) on 1 December 2022 and last until 23:59 (UTC) on 15 December 2022. As the awards process is one of simple approval, opposes are deprecated. After that a new thread will be created and a voting period of will commence on 00:01 16 December 2022 during which editors will be able to cast their simple approval vote for up to three of the nominees. At the end of this period on 23:59 30 December 2022, the top editor will be awarded the Gold Wiki; all other nominees will receive the WikiProject Barnstar.
Please nominate editors below this line, including links in the nomination statement to the most significant articles/lists/images editors have worked on since 1 January 2022. Please keep nomination statements short and concise; excluding links to the articles/list/images in question, the ideal nomination statement should be about 20 words. Self nominations are frowned upon. Please do not vote until the nominations have been finalized. Thanks, and good luck! For all the coordinators, Hog Farm Talk 00:47, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Dabberoni15 - for improving a variety of military history articles to GA class. See Battle of Caloocan and Battle of Málaga (1704). Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Ficaia - for creating a myriad of different military biographies. See John Burgh (officer) and Warren Richard Colvin Wynne. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Stanley Bannerman - for doing good work in the New Zealand military history field. Zawed (talk) 06:35, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Move discussion
FYI: A discussion is taking place on Talk:Captain (United States O-6)#Requested move 30 November 2022 regarding how to best disambiguate the various US "captain" ranks. Ljleppan (talk) 13:07, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
First Crusade RFC - can the Kingdom of Jerusalem be described as secular
RFC at Talk:First_Crusade#Request_for_Comment_-_Can_the_adjective_secular_be_applied_to_the_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem - all feedback is very welcome please. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 00:49, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:United States Army Transportation Corps class S118#Requested move 26 November 2022
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:United States Army Transportation Corps class S118#Requested move 26 November 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
RM discussion notification
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:John M. McHugh#Requested move 19 November 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 12:50, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Tiger categories on Commons
Not sure if this is the correct place to mention it, but someone has made Tiger I and Tiger II child categories based on turret numbers - which makes it look like tanks with the same turret number are the same specific tank, which I don't think is true.
(Hohum ) 01:17, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC about exceptions to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and commanders/leaders in Template:Infobox military conflict
Please comment at the subject RfC.
Category: