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There are at least two kinds of games.
<div class="boilerplate metadata" id="Response location" style="{{divstyleamber}}" align="center" >I will respond on this page to comments, unless you ask that I respond on your talk page.</div>
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One could be called finite, the other infinite.
{{cquote|<big>I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking.</big>|20px | 20px|]
28th President of the United States}}


The finite game is played for the purpose of winning, and thereby ending the game.
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{{user new message|name=Jossi}}


An infinite game for the purpose of continuing the play ... and bringing as many persons as possible into the play.
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Finite players play ''within'' boundaries; infinite players play ''with'' boundaries.
{{totd}}


Finite players are serious; infinite games are playful.


Finite players try to control the game, predict everything that will happen, and set the outcome in advance. They are serious and determined about getting that outcome. They try to fix the future based on the past.


Infinite players enjoy being surprised. Continuously running into something they didn't know will ensure that the game will go on. The meaning of the past changes depending on what happens in the future.
==Coca-cola==
actually, jossi. the coca-cola page was hacked and there was no code with the hack on it so i guess it was some like fixed hack thing.
sorry you missunderstood.


All games are inherently voluntary. There might be consequences of not playing, but there is always a choice required. There are certain rules and boundaries that appear to be externally defined, and you choose to follow them or not. If you stop following them you aren't playing the game any longer.
i have a wikipedia account its ryryion theryes nothing wrong i would never mess wikipedia up its helped me with alot of papers.


There is no rule that says you have to follow the rules, and there is no rule that says you have to play. If you ''have to'' play, you cannot ''really'' play.
thanks


All finite games have rules. If you follow the rules you are playing the game. If you don't follow the rules you aren't playing.
ryan..


Infinite players play with rules and boundaries. They aren't taking them serious, and they can never be trapped by them, because they use rules and boundaries as part of their playing.
(screen name (aol) westoceanlove16){{unsigned|207.255.183.240}}


Players can do what they do seriously, because they must do it, because they must survive to the end, and are afraid of the consequences of not playing or not winning. Or, players can do everything they do playfully, always knowing they have a choice, having no need to survive the way they are, allowing every element of the play to transform them, taking pleasure in every surprise they meet. Those are the differences between finite and infinite players.
==Jossi, please look at Generation Rescue talk page==


You can play finite games within an infinite game. You can not play infinite games within a finite game.
We think we have materially improved the citation, and that problems have been created by people who violently disagree with Generation Rescue and want a very slanted entry. All we want is a Wiki page that is neutral and presents BOTH sides of the organization.{{unsigned|Staff Writer Wiki}}


There is only but one infinite game.
==Request for Comment: Regarding subcategory title==
Please give your comment / suggestions regarding this in the Sathya Sai talk page. I have also requested comments from other editors. ] 22nd February 2007


''Paraphrased from James P. Carse, ] ''
You comments relating to an edit on Leonardo.
1. I bow to your editorial skill
2. I believe you are in error and obviously uninformed on recent theories regarding DaVinci's Mona Lisa. Therefore I would request you retract you comment of Vandalism as it is unwarranted. There was no nonsense in the comments appended. If you still believe there was, please be specific.
I thank you for you concern and applaud you contributions but I do not want you to believe there was nonsense or malice. I would be pleased to have had the opportunity to append cites to support my comment had you not voided them. I would hope that actions were not homophobic and assume you are not involved in art history. I am university educated with an art history minor from Columbia University, N.Y. and studied in Italy as well.
In any event, best regards. denidoc@gmail.com


] <small>]</small>
== Prince Henry ==
----
''''<br />Very sorry to see you leave, Jossi. I fully respect your decision to retire, but do know that I would be very happy to see you make a return to actively contributing at some point.<br />My very best, ] 10:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
:As would I. I disagreed with some of your decisions, but think you have much to offer the community and the Project. Don't let some sour grapes disinterest you - make grappa! :) - ] ] 15:30, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
:I am sorry to see you leave the project; you were a valuable asset to this community. Best wishes, <small>] &#x007C; ] &#x007C; ]</small> 00:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
::Your actions were benevolent, reasoned and always truthful, in my mind; it is a surprise that you departed so suddenly. It is a real shame you have left. Good luck. ] 00:19, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
:::(As above, please move or remove this message at your discretion if you don't want it here.) I can't say we always got along, but I certainly always was glad to see you in a difficult situation. Best of luck to you, wherever that great infinite game takes you. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
::::I am very sorry to see you go. When I was a newbie you were extraordinarily kind and patient with me and I greatly appreciated it. Best of luck to you! ] (]) 13:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


Sorry, I'm a bit thick sometimes. So, hum, real life is the only infinite game, wikipedia is a finite game. Since wikipedia is a finite game, at some point in wikipedia's game you stop running into surprising stuff that you didn't know about, and players wind up being being trapped by wikipedia's rules, being afraid of consequences of not "winning", etc. Text between lines: wikipedia ougth to be an infinite game, but it's not. Did I get it right? --] (]) 14:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I will try to follow your suggestions. However, let me point out that the first to insult with vulgar terms like "asshole" was Dr. Lisboa. And it is difficult not to attack a poster who is constantly wrong, refuses to acknowledge his errors, and simply persists in them or drops one error and creates new ones. In short, how gladly must one suffer fools?


:Close, Enric ...
----professional historian who has corrected Dr. Lisboa's many errors.


:Look at it this way, ''collaboration'' is the antithesis of ''winning''. Players in a game can be focused in terminating the game by winning or by declaring once side as the loser. In collaboration, all players are focused intently in keeping the game going.
== Another "Dr" Lisboa on Prince Henry the Navigator complaint ==
This has nothing to do with the content of the article, but simply the unneccesary insult directed toward me on the talk page. I noticed your post there, and this seems to be the only way of contacting you. I refuse to take abuse from another person, virtual or otherwise. Thank you.


:Misplaced Pages is indeed a finite game, but has embodied many traits of an infinite game. For example , there is ]: ''If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it.'', i.e. if a rule prevents the game to continue, ignore it. The challenge is, thought, as Misplaced Pages grows in importance, authority, and reach, it's basic principles of collegial collaboration, civility, ''anybody can edit'', free content, and neutral point of view (]) are being challenged by more traditional forces, which I would call ''routinization''. This routinization is visible in the quite large body of policies, guidelines, manuals of style, etc. that has developed as well as the processes developed to keep the game going: Arbitration, Administrators, Page protection, Bans, Blocks etc. (Note that I am not judging that to be good or bad, simply stating a fact: after all I was quite involved in these aspects myself. )
== Calligraphy==
Hi Jossi. I note tonight that someone put a spam notice at the bottom of the Calligraphy page. I hope it was not you ? I have done most of the editing recently- I have contacted some 3rd parties about their own sites that I have put links to. My judgement is that the assistance and educational value of the ones chosen is significant. There are a number of editing decisions that I have made that exclude content on the basis of it being an invitation for all and sundry to post their own sites or books. I recommend that if someone has a specific objection that they make it public. Otherwise I think we're on the right track. What do you think about the prominent calligraphers list ? I don't think that it is useful and again poses a threat to the credibility of the main site. ayou may wish to read my recent contributions on the discussion board regarding some of the things I have had to correct- one example includes changing a short, direct quotation from a reputable source into a misquotation. Can we have a look at introducing some new images and perhaps removing "Urkunde" ? Please respond on my talk page. Regards.≈ Furminger ≈ 19 April 2007
:I did not touch that article for a while. For an guideline on what is acceptable as an external link, see ]. ] <small>]</small>


:As soon as these routinizing aspects begin consuming too many resources — and in WP the ''only'' resource is volunteer time (besides $$ needed to run the servers and keep a small staff) — the purpose of the game begin to be lost: Rather than build new articles, improve new ones, expand the number of players, encourage participation, etc. the most experienced people and those with most time, tend to spend their wiki-time in areas that ''limit'' play. I am not arguing that these tasks are not needed; they are. Only that over time, the fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages get lost or constrained in such a manner that it impinges in these principles and may eventually lead to terminating play. As an editor that invested quite a bit of time in that area, I am aware of the dichotomy it presents and the challenges in bridging it.
== IRC cloak request ==
I am jossi on freenode and I would like the cloak wikipedia/jossi Thanks. --~ ] <small>]</small>


:Another challenge is when players try to bring about other games into Misplaced Pages than Wikpiedia's own. Players try and transpose the games they have chosen to play IRL, into this project. That is why we have ], the other side of ]. Just witness the ongoing political, scientific, religious, and other such disputes that have been developing over the last years (check ] for a good sample), and the many efforts by the community to overcome these challenges. A notable point is that in almost every arbitration case (with some notable exceptions), the result is the ''imposition of restrictions'' to participate fully in the game ... "in order to continue playing, you are now restricted from playing", an obvious contradiction.
== backdrop on Stephan Sinding pages ==


:So, as long as there are editors that will do everything possible to keep the game going, and do that with such grace and diligence that does not result in restricting play, Misplaced Pages may have a chance. But if these editors that are intent in winning the game at the expense of keeping the playing going, become those that steer the project forward, then it may not. My opinion is that Misplaced Pages is at that cross-road. The new Arbitration committee, which IMO has more diversity than ever before, as well as having people that I admire for the brilliance of their minds and the generosity of their hearts, may be the ones tasked to see this through, that is if they managed to bring the community around to support their efforts when exploring these challenges.


:Per Carse, it boils down to ''choice'' If you ''have'' to play, you ''cannot'' play. It seems that those that want to win the game, are usually those that feel ''compelled'' to play it, and are those that play it too seriously for their own good. And those that want to keep the game going are usually those that edit with a smile on they face, enjoying the game, bringing new players to the game and expanding the possibility of play.
how are you, i was at the help desk and couldn't find stuff on taking down a photo just 4.11 Uploading a photo. I wasn't the one who took down the "Kjærlighetspar" photo on the intimacy page, i just signed out of my accout to post a myspace and youtube vandal pic hoping someone would take down all the pics seeing how none of the pics are specific to the intimacy sentences. it worked, but on the Stephan Sinding page the back frame and caption for the pict "Kjærlighetspar" ("Loving couple") is still up just like on the intimacy article. i think the pics were deleted by you since User:Jossi was the last undo, and a administrator. can you send some pointers on how to get rid of that backdrop on Stephan Sinding pages and not just take them down Please.


:So, my decision to retire is based on that choice: ''because I can''. I said this without judgment of other players: I wish them wisdom in their own choices, playfulness in their play, and my best.
pict frame backdrop on Stephan Sinding pages


:Happy New Year,
== Stephan Sinding pages, thanks. ==


:] <small>]</small> 18:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
sorry for that long letter since you werent even the one who undid the last message. i didnt even notice the ] on the ] if your the one who got intouch with User:Ziji to take down the back pict frame on the Stephan Sinding pages, thanks. {{unsigned|68.175.95.66}}


::Well, I'm happy that you are not retiring because of bitterness. Myself, I'm staying if only because I can't resist seeing all the process first hand , you know, watching train crashes in slow motion :) I don't understand everything that you say, but I'll take your comments and try to be more playful on my editing. --] (]) 21:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
== How do I ask for protection on (a) page(s)? ==


::: Although I'm only seeing your edits now after you have left I'm also sorry to see you go and hope you reconsider in due course. You may be happy to know that I'm making some progress with COI reform (one small step at a time), for example ] and ]. Perhaps you would consider helping out with such things, if not involving yourself in editing as such. In particular you and I share the view of volunteer time being a precious resource while 1's and 0's are a commodity, and I hope to "leverage" my contributions by trimming back some of the areas where time is wasted (e.g. 50k AfDs over 5k articles). Would you consider helping me write an essay on "respect for human time" or similar? -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small>]]</small></u> 13:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
How do i ask for protection on a page?


== Seasons Greetings ==
Please reply on my talk page


] (]) 00:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)]]
== WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive ==


== Vaya con Dios ==
<div style="border: 2px solid #484898; background: #FFF; background-color:#E2E7FF; padding: 1ex 1ex 1ex 1.5ex; margin: 0px 0px 1em 1em; font-size: 90%">
<div style="border-bottom: 2px dotted #484898">'''WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive!'''</div>
]
] is holding a '''three month long''' assessment drive!<br>
The goal of this drive is to '''eliminate''' the backlog of unassessed articles. The drive is running from June 1, 2007 – September 1, 2007.


Hasta luego, amigo. If I may be so bold, I hope that you made your decision to leave for the sake of your own spiritual health and not in the hopes of influencing Misplaced Pages. Because even a token participation here on your part would be infinitely more helpful than leaving. But if you left because you felt that continued participation was not in the best interests of your continued spiritual growth then I am with you, brother. I will hang in, though. Best Holiday Wishes. --] (]) 18:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Awards to be won range from delicacies such as the ] to the great ].<br>
There are '''over 110,000''' articles to assess so please visit the ] and help out!


--Take care dude, don't neglect your video games and remember to have crazy fun on the weekends.
This drive was conceived of and organized by ] with the help of ]. Regards, '''<font face="Kristen ITC">]'''<sup>] ]</sup></font>.
tilda tilda tilda tilda <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
</div>


== Admin templates on userpage ==
== Article Protection ==


Hello, I have removed your admin templates on your userpage as you are not an administrator. I noticed your retirement message - perhaps you just forgot to remove them before leaving. Any queries, please don't hesitate to contact me. :) <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;"><b>&mdash; ]</b><sup><i>]</i></sup></span> 00:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Please can you justify how issues regarding the trademark is relavant to the Royal Bengal Airline article? Please could you very kindly review this again and cut this out? Thank you.{{unsigned|Airphantom }}


==An olive branch==
== Can you please help me - again ==


{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
Hi. On the ] page there has been a debate going on about that there was no citing on whether he attended the school. One has been made, but how do we know that she isn't just lying to make sure it stays on? Surely there must be more than just writing something down and giving it an un-proven cite and that makes it able to be kept on. Can you explain to me more on that situation of whether you can just write it down or you have to actually have physical proof.
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Peace'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best wishes for the New Year. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 18:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
|}


==Best wishes==
Sorry, some people must think they are you as they are asking a question I am asking you.
I'm sorry to see that your positive experiences with Misplaced Pages were overtaken by negative ones. I too am very sorry to see you leave. Perhaps time away will allow you to come to terms with how things turned out. If that itch to contribute to Misplaced Pages ever comes back, a good way to regain your joy of contribution might be to look over your earliest contributions and follow along the path to where you realized that this is where you wanted to be. Best wishes. -- ] ] 16:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
== An article you created maybe deleted soon: Tools which can help you ==


] The article you created: ''']''' may be deleted from Misplaced Pages.
== my edit to ] ==


There is an ongoing debate about whether your article should be deleted here:
Might I point out the line concerning "Berticus the great"?
:* '''].'''


The faster you respond, the better chance the article you created can be saved.
== Your welcome is welcome ==
<div style="float:center; border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]


Finding sources which mention the topic of your article is the '''very best way''' to avoid an article being deleted {{tl|Findsources3}}: ]
{{{1|]}}} has smiled at you! Smiles promote ] and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing! {{{2|}}} <br /> Smile at others by adding {{tls|Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
]
</div><!-- Template:smile -->
]
Thanks for saying hello.
]
:''Find sources for Digital artist :'' <span class="plainlinks"> , , , , , , , , </span> ...You can then cite these results in the Article for deletion discussion. <!--Template:Findsources3-->


Also, there are several tools and helpful editors on Misplaced Pages who can help you:
# List the page up for deletion on ]. You can get help listing your page on the <span class="plainlinks"></span>.
# You can request a mentor to help explain all of the complex rules that editors use to get a page deleted: ]. But '''don't''' wait for a mentor to respond to you before responding on the article for deletion page.
# When trying to delete a page, veteran editors love to use a lot of ]. Don't let these acronyms intimidate you.<br>Here is a list acronyms you can use yourself: ] which may support the page you created being kept.
# You can vote to ] into a larger or better established article on the same topic.


If your page is deleted, you still ]. Good luck! ] (]) 20:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
== deleted help page ==


==Orphaned non-free media (File:Tao-te-ching005.png)==
hi,
] Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, it is currently ], meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. ] if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).


If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described on ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Orphaned --> ] (]) 05:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I was reading something on help page. After few minutes i went to have coffe some body have deleted or edited the content in my help page and saved the page how can i get back that content. Please help me in doing this.
Thanks and regards, Y.Naganaresh {{unsigned|Naganaresh}}


== Mean Red Spiders == ==FfD to delete Time cover image==
Hi. As you were the original uploader of ], used in ], I thought you might like to know a proceeding was brought to remove the Time image by outright deletion from the wiki . It's at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2009_February_12#Time_evolution_wars.jpg .
If you are at all interested in the issue, it would be reasonable to post a "keep" or a "delete" at that page. ... ] (]) 14:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


All the information is true.


==Sorry to see you go and an appology==
David Humphreys {{unsigned|Dashumphreys}}

==self published sources==

"Material from self-published and questionable sources '''''may be used as sources in articles about themselves''''', so long as:

* it is relevant to their notability;
* it is not contentious;
* it is not unduly self-serving;
* it does not involve claims about third parties;
* it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
* there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it;
* the article is not based primarily on such sources."

stop removing sections without discussing them on the talk page. {{unsigned|71.61.208.156}}

: Exactly. Please do not re-add material that violates policy. ] <small>]</small>

==Thanks for Extension==


Dear Jossi, Dear Jossi,


So sad to see you go! Whenever I would see your name enter a discussion, over and over again, I relaxed, here was a wikipedian with knowledge and fairness!
Many thank for giving me (and everyone else out there) until the eighth to get the citations in.




I am also writing to apologize. When I read the register article, I accepted it as mostly accurate, without taking the time to really look at the facts and participated in the Prem Rawat arbitration, casting my voice against you.
== RE: Categories ==


I truly and deeply appologize for not trusting my experience with you and casting my opinion with a questionable source, and not taking the time to really investigate and form my own opinion.
== Ambox type=serious ==


I noticed you'd changed the type of {{]}}, {{]}} and {{]}} from "content" to "serious" a few days ago. I've reverted the changes, since the consensus on ] seems to be that type=serious should be reserved for things like imminent deletion (i.e. {{]}}, {{]}}, {{]}} etc.). If you'd like to discuss this issue, I'd suggest doing so ]. —] <small>(])</small> 21:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
: Thanks. I will raise the issue there. ] <small>]</small> 22:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


== ] links per BLPN ==


Hope wiki-retirement is treating you well.
Hi Jossi, you closed ] a few weeks ago, and the editor has since readded the link. The article he ] does nothing to establish the author/blog's credibility or notability, and there is no reporting or editorial oversite whatsoever -- one of the last entries consists of gossip received via emails from equally anonymous sources. Since I am no longer willing to assume good faith about this editor, I need to stay out of this issue, but I believe the link should not be on this site...will you take a look at the article? Thanks. ] | ] 19:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
: Thanks for the heads-up. I have commented there and placed a warning in the user's talk page. ] <small>]</small> 20:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Hey Jossi, if you look at the discussion page, I had left my argument/thoughts/response for why I thought the worstmayorever.com site was valid (though not "normal") to be in the External Links section almost a month ago, and no-one responded, so when I was cleaning up the article later, I added it back in. I don't see how that's disruptive (especially if you look at my other edits on that article and see how they were very much working towards improving the quality of that entry). Basically, this is a request to "assume good faith". ] 23:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
: are you going to respond? I've been very polite and patient, and haven't touched the link in question since you left your comment, I think it's only polite and appropriate for you to take the time to respond to a fellow wiki editor that you reprimanded ] 02:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
:: If I did not respond is because I feel I have already made my argument. ] <small>]</small> 03:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Where? I agree links of that kind should normally be avoided, but I'm arguing that this is an abnormal situation, and I gave very specific reasons why. What do you think of those reasons? ] 18:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


Warmly, ] (]) 16:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
==Version of AAB bio from two ago==


Hi Jossi,


==File copyright problem with File:Vertical tabs sample.png==
I'm sending you a copy of what the Alice Bailey biography looked like two weeks ago. It was a version that the present editors and James1 (not here now) participated in writing, and painstakingly worked on to bring up to Misplaced Pages standards. This version was praised by 5 of editors. I know you're busy, but I thought you might like to see a relatively stable article. Thanks ] 15:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
]
Thank you for uploading ]. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes ] very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the '''license''' and the '''source''' of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a ''']''' to the ].


If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following .


If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the ]. Thanks again for your cooperation.<!-- Template:Di-no license-notice --> ▫ ''']''' 02:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Your right, it's too heavy with quotes. I guess I was just longing for a more stable time. ] 04:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


==]==
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. {{User|Momento}} and {{User|Rumiton}} are banned from editing ] or any related article (including talk pages) for one year. The ] article and all related articles are subject to revert limitations for one year. Several users are admonished for their conduct in the case and all parties and other interested editors are encouraged to restart mediation in relation to ]. Also, should {{User|Jossi}} return to Misplaced Pages to edit Prem Rawat articles, he is required to contact the Arbitration Committee beforehand. These remedies are in addition to, and do not replace, the remedies passed in ].


For the Committee. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 02:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


''']'''


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==Proposed deletion of Unipaz==
'''Alice Ann Bailey''' (], ] &ndash; ], ]), known as '''Alice A. Bailey''' or '''AAB''', was born as '''Alice LaTrobe Bateman''', in ], ], but moved to the ] in 1907, where she spent most of her life as a writer and teacher. Bailey's twenty-five books are published worldwide, and have been translated into nine languages, with three more in progress.<ref> </ref> Writing on ], ], ] and religious themes, Bailey was among the earliest authors to popularize the terms ] and ]. <ref name="pike1">{{cite book | last = Pike | first = Sarah M. | title =New Age and Neopagan Religions in America | publisher = Columbia University Press | date = 2004 | pages = 64 | isbn= 0231124023}}</ref> Her ] philosophy is still influential and there are many groups, schools and organizations that study and implement her ideas worldwide.<ref>Balyoz, Harold, ''Three Remarkable Woman,'' Altai Publishers, 1986, p. 348</ref>
]
A ] template has been added to the article ], suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process&#32; because of the following concern:
:<b>Notability-tagged since December, numerous unsourced statements</b>


All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Misplaced Pages's ], and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "]" and ]). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the <code>{{tl|dated prod}}</code> notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on ].
She stated that most of her books were telepathically dictated to her by a "Master of the Wisdom" she referred to as "The Tibetan". <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 162-163</ref> Her writings range from the psychological to the cosmic, and expound a system of esoteric thought that includes subjects such as ], healing, spiritual psychology, the destiny of nations, and prescriptions for society in general.


Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the ], the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the ] or it can be sent to ], where it may be deleted if ] to delete is reached.<!-- Template:PRODWarning --> &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 21:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Her writings have much in common with those of ], yet they differ from ] in many respects. She wrote about religious themes, especially Christianity, but her writings are fundamentally contrary to many aspects of orthodox Christianity and to orthodox religions in general. Her vision of a unified society includes a global "spirit of religion" different from traditional religious forms (which she regarded as largely divisive, human creations).


== Millennium '73 ==
Bailey's writings stirred controversy because she spoke against orthodox Christianity, American isolationism, nationalism, Soviet totalitarianism, fascism, and Nazism. She also critisized Zionism and the Jewish religion and history.
Some have seen her writings on this as ], and ].
<ref name="penn1">{{cite book | last = Penn | first =Lee | title =False Dawn: The United Religions Initiative, Globalism, and the Quest for a One World Religion | publisher = Sophia Perennis | date = 2004 | pages = 267-268,273,299 | isbn = 159731000X}}</ref>
<ref name="miller1">{{cite book | last = Miller | first = Elliott | title =A Crash Course on the New Age Movement: Describing and Evaluating a Growing Movement | publisher = Baker Book House | date = 1989 | pages = 197 | isbn = 0801062489}}</ref>


], to which you made significant contributions, has now been promoted to ] status. Thank you for your help. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
__TOC__


== ] ==
==Life==
===Childhood===


Alice Bailey was born to a wealthy aristocratic British family, and as a member of the ], received a thorough Christian education. She describes a lonely and "over-sheltered" childhood and was unhappy despite the luxury of her physical circumstances. (Bailey, 9. 12). <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 9, 12)</ref> Of this early life she wrote:


This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following editors are subjected to bans/topic-bans/restrictions as listed below :
<blockquote>
"Looking back, I can imagine nothing more appalling than the perpetuation of the Victorian era, for instance, with its ugliness, its smugness, and the excessive comfort of the upper classes (so-called) and the frightful condition under which the laboring classes struggled. It was in that well-padded, sleek and comfortable world I lived when a girl. I can imagine nothing more blighting to the human spirit than the theology of the past with the emphasis upon a God who saves a smug few and condemns the majority to perdition. I can imagine nothing more conducive to unrest, class war, hate and degradation than the economic situation of the world, then and for many decades&mdash;a situation largely responsible for the present world war (1914-1945)." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 4-5</ref></blockquote>


*] : {{user|John254}} (Community Ban), {{user|Justallofthem}}
In her autobiography she relates three suicide attempts. These occurred in childhood, the first when, at the age of five, she decided life was not worth living:
*Topic-banned : {{user|CSI LA}}, {{user|Grrrilla}}, {{user|Makoshack}}, {{user|Proximodiz}}, {{user|Su-Jada}}, {{user|TaborG}}, {{user|Jack Russell Terrier}}, {{user|Jpierreg}}, {{user|Maureen D}}, {{user|OngoingHow}}, {{user|Seelltey}}, {{user|Tturrisi}}, {{user|Voxpopulis}}, {{user|AndroidCat}}, {{user|Antaeus Feldspar}}, {{user|Anynobody}}, {{user|Derflipper}}, {{user|Fahrenheit451}}, {{user|Misou}}, {{user|Orsini}}, {{user|Shrampes}}, {{user|Shutterbug}}, {{user|Steve Dufour}}, {{user|Tilman}}, {{user|The Legendary Shadow!}}, {{user|Touretzky}}
*To contact the Committee : ]*, ]*, ]*, ]*, ]*, ]*, {{User|Rick Alan Ross}}
*Other restrictions :
**{{User|Jossi}} gave up his status as an administrator in the face of controversy concerning his administrator actions during an arbitration case, he may not be automatically re-granted adminship. However, he is free to seek readminship, should he choose to do so, at any time by a request for adminship at Requests for adminship.
**{{User|ChrisO}} is to abide to a binding voluntary restriction that within the Scientology topic (i) he limits his edits to directly improving articles to meet GA and FA criteria, using reliable sources; (ii) he makes no edits of whatever nature to biographies of living people; and (iii) he refrains from sysop action of whatever nature.
**{{User|Jayen466}} is topic-banned from articles about Rick Ross, broadly defined.


:<small>#Editors marked in * have since contacted the Committee.</small>
<blockquote>""The experience of my five years made me feel that things were futile so I decided that if I bumped down the stone kitchen steps from top to bottom &hellip; I would probably be dead at the end. I did not succeed &hellip; As I went on in life, I made two other efforts to put an end to things, only to discover it is a very difficult thing to commit suicide.&hellip; I tried to smother myself with sand when I was around eleven years old, but sand in one's mouth, nose and eyes is not comfortable and I decided to postpone the happy day."<ref name="sutcliffe46">{{cite book | last = Sutcliffe | first =Steven J, | title =Children of the New Age: A History of Spiritual Practices | publisher = Routledge | date = 2003 | pages = p 46 | isbn = 0415242991}}</ref></blockquote>


Any editor who is subject to remedies in this proceeding, or who wishes to edit from an open proxy, is restricted to a single current or future account to edit Scientology-related topics and may not contribute to the topic as anonymous IP editors. Editors topic banned by remedies in this proceeding are prohibited (i) from editing articles related to Scientology or Scientologists, broadly defined, as well as the respective article talk pages and (ii) from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles. Editors topic banned above may apply to have the topic ban lifted after demonstrating their commitment to the goals of Misplaced Pages and their ability to work constructively with other editors. Applications will be considered no earlier than six months after the close of this case, and additional reviews will be done no more frequently than every six months thereafter.
At age 15, Bailey was visited by a stranger, "...a tall man, dressed in European clothes and wearing a turban." <ref name="Keller763">{{cite book | last = Keller | first =Rosemary Skinner | coauthors=Rosemary Radford
Ruether, Marie Cantlon | title =Encyclopedia of Women And Religion in North America | publisher = Indiana University Press | date = 2006 | pages = 763 | isbn = 0253346886}}</ref> She supposed this individual was Jesus, but later she identified him as a theosophical master ''Hoot Koomi.'' <ref name="hammer65">{{cite book | last = Hammer | first = Olav | title =Claiming Knowledge: Strategies of Epistemology from Theosophy to the New Age | publisher = BRILL | date = 2004 | pages = 65 | isbn = 900413638X}}</ref> In her autobiography she identified the date of the visit as June 30th, 1895, and wrote:


Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, ban any editor from editing within the Scientology topic. Prior to topic banning the editor, the administrator will leave a message on the editor's talk page, linking to this paragraph, warning the editor that a topic ban is contemplated and outlining the behaviours for which it is contemplated. If the editor fails to heed the warning, the editor may be topic banned, initially, for three months, then with additional topic bans increasing in duration to a maximum of one year. Any editor who, in the judgment of an uninvolved administrator, is (i) focused primarily on Scientology or Scientologists and (ii) clearly engaged in promoting an identifiable agenda may be topic-banned for up to one year.
<blockquote>
"He told me there was some work that it was planned that I could do in the world but that it would entail my changing my disposition very considerably; I would have to give up being such an unpleasant little girl and must try and get some measure of self-control." (Bailey, pp 35)
</blockquote>


All IP addresses owned or operated by the Church of Scientology and its associates, broadly interpreted, are to be blocked as if they were open proxies. Any current or future editor who, after this decision is announced, makes substantial edits to any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page is directed to edit on these from only a single user account, which shall be the user's sole or main account, unless the user has previously sought and obtained permission from the Arbitration Committee to operate a legitimate second account. They shall edit in accordance to Misplaced Pages policies and refrain from advocacy, to disclose on the relevant talk pages any circumstances (but not including personal identifying information) that constitute or may reasonably be perceived as constituting a conflict of interest with respect to that page, and not through a proxy configuration.
===Adult life===


- ''For the Arbitration Committee'', ] 01:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
At age 22 Bailey did ] work in connection with the ] and the British Army.<ref>Ross, Joseph E., ''Krotona of Old Hollywood, Vol. II'' Joseph Ross, 2004, p. 340</ref> This took her to India where, in 1907, she met her future husband, Walter Evans. Together they moved to America where Evans became an ] priest.<ref>Keller , Rosemary Skinner. ''Encyclopedia of Women and Religion in North America''. Indiana University Press. 2006. p 762</ref> However, this marriage did not last. She stated that her husband mistreated her and in one of his fits of temper, threw her down the stairs. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 114</ref> Bailey pushed for and received a divorce. (Bailey, p. 121&ndash;122) She left with their three children; after formal separation in 1915. Then followed a difficult period in which she had to work as a factory hand to support herself and the children. (Bailey, p. 121&ndash;122)<ref name="Keller763"/><ref name="sutcliffe46"/><ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 13 </ref>
Bailey's break was not only with her Christian husband, but with ] in general. In her autobiography she wrote that “a rabid, orthodox Christian worker become a well-known occult teacher.”(Bailey, p. 1 & p. 47).


== Protect free speech ==
In the United States, in 1915, Bailey discovered the ] and the work of ] (Bailey, pp 134&ndash;136). In 1918 she became a member of the Esoteric section of the this society. <ref>Meade, Marion, ''Madame Blavatsky, the Woman Behind the Myth,'' Putnam , 1980, p. 468</ref> She claimed to recognize ''Koot Hoomi'', the master that had visited her in her childhood, from a portrait she saw in the Shrine Room of the ]. (Bailey, pp 156) <ref>Ross, Joseph E., ''Krotona of Old Hollywood, Vol. II'' Joseph Ross, 2004, p. 340</ref>. Bailey wrote much about those she called the “Masters of the Wisdom,” which she believed to be a brotherhood of enlightened sages working under the guidance of "the Christ." In part, she stated her writings were an effort to clarify the nature of these Masters, and their work.


FYI,
<blockquote>
“This I will enlarge upon later and show how I personally came to know of Their existence. In everyone's life there are certain convincing factors which make living possible. Nothing can alter one's inner conviction. To me, the Masters are such a factor and this knowledge has formed a stabilizing point in my life.” (Bailey, p. 4)
</blockquote>


* http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:BullRangifer#Defend_free_speech
In 1917, Bailey became involved in the Theosophical Society.<ref>Mills, Joy, ''100 Years of Theosophy, A History of the Theosophical Society in Ameirca,'' 1987, p. 62</ref> "She quickly rose to a position of influence in the American Section of the Adyar society, moving to its headquarters at Krotona in Hollywood. She became editor of its magazine, "''The Messenger,'' and member of the committee responsible for Krotona." <ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 151</ref>


-- ] (]) 08:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Bailey wrote that, in 1919, she was contacted by a Master known as The Tibetan (later associated with the initials ''D.K.'', and eventually the name ]):


== Thank you. ==
<blockquote>
Your work will last for long time. ] is very simple, yet one of the more beautiful pages about the project. ]] 05:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
“I heard what I thought was a clear note of music which sounded from the sky, through the hill and in me. Then I heard a voice which said, 'There are some books which it is desired should be written for the public. You can write them. Will you do so?' Without a moment's notice I said, 'Certainly not. I'm not a darned psychic and I don't want to be drawn into anything like that.'" Bailey, pp. 162&ndash;163)</blockquote>


== Possibly unfree File:Condmilk.jpg ==
Bailey states that she was eventually persuaded to write down the communications from this source. She wrote for 30 years, from 1919 to 1949.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. From the Preface by Foster Bailey, p 1</ref>. The result was 24 published books on ancient wisdom, philosophy, religion, contemporary events, science, psychology, nations, astrology, and healing. Also in 1919, 32nd degree ] Foster Bailey (1888-1977), who was to be her second husband, became National Secretary of the Theosophical Society; (Bailey, p. 157) <ref> York, Michael, ''The Emerging Network: A Sociology of the New Age and Neo-Pagan Movements,'' Rowman & Littlefield, 1995, p. 63</ref> they married in 1921. <ref name="penn2">{{cite book | last = Penn | first =Lee | title =False Dawn: The United Religions Initiative, Globalism, and the Quest for a One World Religion | publisher = Sophia Perennis | date = 2004 | pages = 20 | isbn = 159731000X}}</ref>
A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ] because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the ]. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at ] if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Idw-pui --> ] (]) 04:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


== Documentation of sockpuppet investigation - where's the evidence? ==
"The Theosophist published the first few chapters of her first work, ''Initiation, Human and Solar,'' but then stopped for reasons Bailey called 'theosophical jealousy and reactionary attitude.' <ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 151</ref> Bailey, "objected to the neo-Theosophy of Annie Besant" and worked with Foster Bailey to gain more power in the American Section" <ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 151</ref> She became part of a progressive, " 'Back to Blavatsky movement, led mainly by Mr. and Mrs Foster Bailey," <ref>Ransom, Josephine, ''A Short History of the Theosophical Society, Adyar, 1938, p. 452</ref> She outlined her vision for the Esoteric Section of the Theosophical Society and by annuciating ideals of tolerance and brotherhood.
<ref>"Bailey, Alice, ''A Vision of Krotona's Future,'' in ''The Messenger,'' p. 259</ref><ref>Ross, Joseph E., ''Krotona of Old Hollywood, Vol. II'' Joseph Ross, 2004, p. 410</ref> However, her efforts to influence the society failed, and she and her husband were dismissed from their positions. <ref>Ross, Joseph E., ''Krotona of Old Hollywood, Vol. II'' Joseph Ross, 2004, p. 346</ref>


Considering that this user retired back near the end of 2008 and never made any contributions after that, why is he/she indefinitely blocked as a "sockpuppet master"? Was the user allowed to defend itself? Why was no documentation provided? Note that I've opened up a thread about this here: ]. ] | (] - ]) 19:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
According to author Olav Hammer, Bailey's early writings of communications with the Tibetan were well received within the society, but society president ] questioned Bailey's claims of communications with "the Tibetan" and expelled the Baileys from the organization.<ref name="hammer65"/> According to Bailey, she had come to see the society as authoritarian and involved with "lower psychic phenomena.".<ref name="Keller763"/> In her writings, however, she continued to acknowledge the importance of Madame Blavatsky's works, and saw her own task as the continuation and further development of Blavatsky’s teachings. (Bailey, pp. 168&ndash;177)


:I replied at that thread. --] (]) 19:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
In 1923, with the help of Foster Bailey, Alice Bailey founded the Arcane School, which gave (and still gives) a correspondence course based on her books (Bailey, pp. 192&ndash;193). <ref> York, Michael, ''The Emerging Network: A Sociology of the New Age and Neo-Pagan Movements,'' Rowman & Littlefield, 1995, p. 63</ref> The Arcane School is part of the ], a not-for-profit foundation that also publishes Bailey's works. Together with Foster Bailey, she organized an International Goodwill Movement <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography.'' Lucis Trust. 1951. p 2</ref> About 100 of Alice Bailey's public talks and private talks to her more advanced Arcane School students are available online.<ref>http://www.esotericstudies.net/talks/index.htm</ref> Bailey continued to work right up to the time of her death in 1949 <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. From the Preface by Foster Bailey, p 1</ref>.


:The use of an alternate account was an evasion of the remedy in ], and also had the effect of evading scrutiny, and so it was a violation of ]. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 02:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


::No evidence in that case was presented regarding lingering disputes. How far do we have to dig to get a straight answer here? Does this basically amount to "before you come back, check in with us so we can slap you on the wrist"? Jossi is getting banned for that kind of process wankery? You guys are better than this. -- ] 12:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
==Teachings==
===Comparison with Theosophy===


:::If you look at Pergamino's edits, you'll see that he was intentially deceptive about his knowledge of Misplaced Pages and his favorite topic. Further, Pergamino started editing while there was an active RFAR in which Jossi would have been a party if he hadn't "retired". So the use of the sock was not only deceptive, but it served to evade ArbCom sanctions. Regarding the sock investigation, checkuser results are never released, so that's nothing unusual. The ArbCom itself made the call, not just a functionary or admin. See the notes at ]. There's also evidence of past sockpppet use. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 18:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
{{Theosophy}}


::::If Jossi was thrown in as a party of the second arb case it would be very unlikely that any scansions on him would have been this severe. It's so easy to piss on good editors of the past and make them out to be villains, what with their deceptive and evil intentions. If I were to just speculate I would say that Jossi did this to avoid all the BS and get back to improving actual articles. It wouldn't excuse the violation of the arbcom case, sure, but it puts things into perspective. It sickens me to see editors treated like this. The taboo of the sockpuppet seems to trump all rational logic. -- ] 05:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Campbell writes that Bailey's books are a reworking of major Theosophical themes, with some distinctive emphasies, and that they present a comprehensive system of esoteric science and occult philosophy, cognizant of contemporary social and political developments. <ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 152</ref> Sutcliffe points out that both Bailey and Blavatsky's work evoke a picture of Tibet as the spiritual home of the Masters and that Bailey claimed a more-or-less direct lineage to Blavatsky. Sutcliffe writes:


:::::Why would you speculate? All of Misplaced Pages administration is against Jossi now? He broke the rules, he got spanked like he knew he would if he got caught, where's the issue here? -- ] <small>]</sup></small> 05:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
<blockquote>
"What of the content and style of Bailey's texts? Despite incorporating elements of debates in psychology, social planning and international relations, these are indebted to Theosophical cosmology and indeed Bailey can only be described as a 'post-Theosophical' theorist. For example, by her own account she received instruction from former personal pupils of Blavatsky at the start of the 'new spiritual era' in her life, and she later admitted that 'none of my books would have been possible had I not made a very close study of ''The Secret Doctrine.'' ' Her third book, ''A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'' (1925), is not only dedicated to Blavatsky but even reproduces the apocryphal 'Stanzas of Dzyan' upon which Blavatsky's own text had supposedly been based, while as late as 1936 the frontispiece of ''Esoteric Psychology'' carried a Blavatsky epigraph." <ref>Sutcliffe, Steven J, ''Children of the New Age: A History of Spiritual Practices.'' Routledge, 2003, p 48</ref>
</blockquote>


::::::It's pretty startling that even now nobody can point me to a sockpuppet investigation page where a Checkuser publicly confirmed the evidence of sockpuppeting, with some diffs. Can you point me to the page? Why are you so against public evidence? ] | (] - ]) 05:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Dr. Jon Klimo, in ''Investigations on Receiving Information from Paranormal Sources,'' writes, "As with Blavatsky/Theosophical material, and more recent contemporary channeled material from other sources, we find in the Bailey work the same occult cosmological hierarchy: physical, etheric, astral, mental, causal, and higher inhabited levels of existence." <ref>Klimo, Jon, Investigations on Receiving Information from Paranormal Sources, J. Tarcher, Inc, 1987, p 118.</ref> Hammer, in the book ''Claiming Knowledge: Strategies of epistemology from theosophy to the new age,'' highlights Bailey's Theosophical similarities as well as noting what he thinks are some differences between them:
:::::::Checkuser investigations are routinely done without posting an investigation, and in many SPIs the only feedback is "confirmed". I'm not sure what other evidence is required beyond checkuser, but I assume the ArbCom could be contacted directly with legitimate inquiries. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 05:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::::In ], the first comment is by ] saying that he had checkusered the user, and then the Arcom clerk ] said that he had also seen some of the evidence and that he confirmed the basis for the block.
::::::::Also notice that the other sock ] said that he had communicated the identity of his main to an arbcom member, and that 8 hours later Arbcom member ] (bainer) declined his unblock request saying that it was not a legitimate usage of an alternative account. --] (]) 10:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


::::::::I suggest contacting them about what evidence they found and how convincing it was and why. --] (]) 09:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
<blockquote>
:::::::::It seems likely that Jossi was using those sockpuppets inappropriately. But the problem is that the standard practice on Misplaced Pages is to use evidence which is not collected and organized systematicallym and sockpuppet ban templates which do not point to the evidence, so it's a huge hassle to find out when the sockpuppet verdict was a mistake, and only insiders know what happened. That's not sustainable, and it is a very cabal-like practice. ] | (] - ]) 17:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
"To a large extent, Bailey's teachings are a restatement and amplification of theosophy of the ''Secret Doctrine.'' Bailey inherited from Blavatsky and Leadbeater a predilection for profuse details and complex classificatory schemes. Thus Bailey's cosmology rests on the belief in mult-level hierarchy of spiritual masters and in a classifiction of the entire cosmos according to a sevenfold scheme. Her books have also introduces shifts in emphasis as well as new doctrinal elements. Her interests in esoteric astrology, her doctrine of the seven rays (i.e. seven spiritual principles that underlie manifest reality) and her messianic belief in the imminent arrival of New Age are original contributions to theosophical doctrine."
:Simply put: No. Checkuser evidence is private to protect the privacy of everyone involved. Even if there ''were'' an SPI page opened, you'd have no more information than a {{tl|confirmed}} template on the page and a note acknowledging that the accounts were blocked: exactly what is available here. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 10:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
<ref>Hammer, Olav, ''Claiming Knowledge: Strategies of epistemology from theosophy to the new age." BRILL, 2001, p. 65</ref>
::Your underlying premise is that diffs and supporting evidence beyond a "Checkuser" confirmation are unnecessary, or that the public doesn't need to see this supporting evidence. Simply put: that's absurd. Plenty of people edit from the same locations in the same topics. Sockpuppet case investigation pages present the evidence (diffs), which are otherwise difficult to track down. They should be opened in any major case just to allow people to look for the evidence themselves. Also, the argument that this is to defend the accused's privacy seems weak. Sockpuppet investigation case pages do not violate the accused's privacy. The accused always benefits from some due process and transparency, as do we all. ] | (] - ]) 16:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
</blockquote>
:::If you have a problem with the policy itself, then I would suggest that the correct place to have this discussion would be ] or ]. It would seem inappropriate to have this discussion on any user's talkpage unless there is something special about this user's ban. Are you posting on every user talkpage of confirmed sockpuppeteers? It would seem you haven't even attempted to discuss your views on checkuser confirmation on any policy pages yet, though that is the logical place to start. Also, you're assuming we only have the checkuser results to rely on, even though on the ] we have this, "CheckUser does not solve cases. It provides additional evidence of a technical nature that can be considered along with behavioral evidence, and may help clarify whether misuse has taken place". I would think that if you really wanted to improve this process you would do so from the policy pages where the involved admins already are, and not rely on whoever wanders past this page. -- ] <small>]</sup></small> 18:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Did you miss the in the opening paragraph (])? I would prefer to discuss this in the policy area, but there were statements here that I wanted to respond to. See ]. ] | (] - ]) 19:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::So we should cut and paste this *entire* discussion to the appropriate talk pages instead of cluttering up userspace, is that what you're recommending? Seems entirely appropriate to me too. Would you think ] or ] is best? Or possibly to one, with a note on the other linking it? -- ] <small>]</sup></small> 19:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::I don't know about copy/pasting...the sockpuppet investigations (SPI) page is, I guess, a subpage of the sockpuppetry policy page, but the SPI page probably has a more traffic and therefore more people watching it. Right now it's sort of in Checkuser. I don't know how controversial this is. I dropped a notice over at ]. ] | (] - ]) 19:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I'm not sure what the basis for this dispute is. Is there any doubt that Pergamino was a sock of Jossi's? Has Jossi denied it or complained about the process? I don't believe so. I think his silence is an implicit agreement with the finding. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::::My impression is that retired users don't check their Misplaced Pages watchlist every couple days, or sometimes even at all. People move on with their lives. In the mess above there's some decent evidence that Pergamino was Jossi, but there's still no link to the initial request for Checkuser, what the basis was, ect. The link you provided (]) had '''zero evidence''' - it was circular (Jossi is banned because ). The most convincing evidence is from Enric, who said that one of the socks basically admitted to being Jossi in an email. ] | (] - ]) 21:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Note that mail was sent July last year and has nothing to do with more recent events. ''']]''' 23:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
CU evidence is private. Arbcom gets reports/requests/etc of all sorts everyday. If a CU is justified, an CU check will be run, as was the case here. These are called 'private CUs' and happen all the time. The requirement for a CU is that the evidence presented meet CU requirements. An SPI report may or may not be filed. It is place to collect most sock reports. Arbcom handles a lot of private matters and we can not, nor do we need to, file an SPI when we get a report/request. In this Jossi case at hand, we hand on wiki evidence, private correspondence, and a CU check. All together a very solid case for socking was shown, plus Jossi did not notify us as required by the arbcom ruling. I can post the onwiki public evidence here if someone is interested. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 20:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
:I think this is better discussed over at the thread I started or its subthread (]). The question is - why do these requests need to be private? Are there any rules which "the community" can read governing how these private discussions go? And why can't ArbCom file an SPI? But please don't answer these questions here. ] | (] - ]) 21:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


== 2012 Election Need Your Feedback ==
In contrast to the above, some Theosophical critics of Bailey contend that there are major differences between the Theosopy of H. P. One key differences relates to Bailey's embrace of some mystical Christian terms and concepts. <ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 153</ref>


I noticed you were a regular editor on the 2008 election page. Myself and other editors are odds on some edits we are trying to make to the page. Since you have already been involved in probably similar discussion, we would greatly appreciate hearing your feedback on the 2012 election discussion page under the Republicans and Ruled Out discussions http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:United_States_presidential_election,_2012#Republicans.3F
<blockquote>Bailey asserted that her teachings are grounded in and do not oppose in any fundamental way Theosophy as lived and taught by HPB and her Gurus. This assertion is false. Her books are rooted in the pseudo-theosophy pioneered by CW Leadbeater. For example, one of CWL's favorite revelations was the return to earth of "Maitreya" the Christ. Bailey accepted this fantasy. She placed an immense spiritual value on the Great Invocation (2) which is supposed to induce Christ and his Masters to leave their hidden ashrams, enter into major cities and begin to dictate the redemption of Aquarian society. Contrariwise, the Theosophy of HPB and her Gurus emphasizes reliance on the Christos principle within each person. As Blavatsky thought: " enforces belief in the Descent of the Spiritual Ego into the Lower Self; inculcates the necessity of endeavouring to elevate oneself to the Christos &hellip; state." (3) The discovery and altruistic expression of our innate divinity uplifts each individual and thus, very slowly, all of humanity.</blockquote>


] (] • ]) 20:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC).
Theosophists are divided on their assessment of Alice Bailey's writings. For instance, the noted contemporary Theosophical writer Geoffrey Hodson wrote a highly favorable review of one her books, saying, "Once more Alice Bailey has placed occult students in her debt." <ref>Hodson, Geoffrey, ''World Theosophy Magazine,' February 1931 &ndash; June 1931, The Theosophical Society, 1931</ref> And Gallagher writes, "Her first book, ''Initiation Human and Solar,'' was at first favorably received by her fellow theosophists. Soon, however, her claims to be recipient of ageless wisdom from the Masters met with opposition." <ref>Hammer, Olav, ''Claiming Knowledge: Strategies of epistemology from theosophy to the new age." BRILL, 2001, p. 65</ref> The conflict is understandable since her works contain some criticisms of Theosophy, and at the time of the break she voiced her criticism of what she saw as dogmatic structures within the society, while questioning the pledges of loyalty to Theosophical leaders that were required. "During the annual convention of 1920 in Chicago, there was a power struggle between forces loyal to Besant and the Esoteric Section and others who believed that the ES had become too powerful. Below the surface was a hidden controversy regarding Alice's work with the Tibetan." <ref>Keller , Rosemary Skinner. ''Encyclopedia of Women and Religion in North America''. Indiana University Press. 2006. p 762</ref> For a more recent example of Bailey/Theosophy division, see the ]


==Unreferenced BLPs==
With regard to terminology, Reigle points out Blavatsky's aversion to the word "God," then in a critique of Bailey's acceptance and use of the term he writes:
] Hello Jossi! Thank you for your contributions. I am a ] alerting you that '''1''' of the articles that you created is tagged as an]. The ] policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure ], all biographies should be based on ]. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current '']'' article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{tl|unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:


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<blockquote>
Thanks!--] (]) 22:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
"Some have regarded this utilization of the term 'God' in the Djwhal Khul/Alice Bailey writings as 'skillful means'; that is, the use of teachings that are not ultimately true in order to benefit a spiritually immature audience, one that is presently incapable of assimilating the actual truth. To move a largely Christian audience from an anthropomorphic conception of God to a much more abstract conception of God as the Solar Logo, rather han causing them to reject the Ageless Wisdom teachings altogether as being Godless, would be considered in Buddhism as skillful means." <ref>''Fohat,'' A Quarterly Publication of the Edmonton Theosophical Society, vol 7, no. 1, Sprint 2003, pp. 6-11, and no 2, Summary 2003, pp 35-39</ref>
</blockquote>


With respect to the similarities of the two schools, in her book ''The Key to Theosophy,'' in a subsection titled "The Unity of All in All," H. P. Blavatsky writes:


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<blockquote>
]
"In their origin and in eternity the three, like the universe and all therein, are one with the absolute Unity, the unknowable deific essence I spoke about some time back. We believe in no creation, but in the periodical and consecutive appearances of the universe from the subjective onto the objective plane of being, at regular intervals of time, covering periods of immense duration." <ref>Blavatsky, H. P., ''The Key to Theosophy." The Theosophical Publishing Society, 1889, subsection, p. 83</ref>
Thanks for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file agreed to license it under the given license.
</blockquote>


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Like Theosophy, Alice Bailey’s writings repeatedly emphasize ''unity''. A representative example is:
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<blockquote>" I will endeavor, above all else, to demonstrate to you that all-pervading unity and that underlying synthesis which is the basis of all religions and of all the many transmitted forces; I will seek to remove you, as individuals, from out of the center of your own stage and consciousness and&mdash;without depriving you of individuality and of self-identity&mdash;yet show you how you are part of a greater whole of which you can become consciously aware when you can function as souls, but of which you are today unconscious, or at least only registering and sensing the inner reality in which you live and move and have your being."<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''A Treatise on the Seven Rays, Vol 3: Esoteric Astrology''. Lucis Trust. 1951. p 7</ref></blockquote>


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She believed her works were part of an unfolding revelation of ageless wisdom to humanity, of which Theosophical teachings were the predecessor and preparation. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Discipleship in the New Age, Volume 1''. Lucis Trust. 1944. p 732</ref> Her writings have much in common with Theosophy, and both contain these ideas. <ref>Lewis, James R., ''The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements''. Oxford University Press., 2004, p 446</ref>
<ref>Frawley, David. ''Tantric Yoga and the Wisdom Goddesses: Spiritual Secrets of Ayurveda.'' Passage Press. 1994. p 22</ref>
<ref>Rhodes, Ron. ''New Age Movements,'' Zondervan. 1995. p 26</ref>
<ref>Gottfried de Purucker, ''Fundamentals Of The Esoteric Philosophy.'' Wisdom Religion Press
1996, p. 9, 21, 48, 54, 203, 324, 480, 542</ref>
* Unity is the fundamental fact of spiritual life and realization
* The entire universe is alive—all is energy and energy expresses life
* Divinity is both transcendent and immanent
* Man lives within a hierarchy of spiritual lives
* Divinity unfolds through spiritual evolution
* All life is cyclic
* Man is a soul (consciousness) and reincarnates many times to gain experience
* Life is governed by the interplay of karma and free will
* Will, love, and intelligence are the essential attributes of the evolving soul
* Seven fundamental energies underlie all things—seven centers, seven planes, etc.
There are several themes that, in some degree, distinguish her writings from Theosophy and related traditions. These include:<ref>Keller , Rosemary Skinner. ''Encyclopedia of Women and Religion in North America''. Indiana University Press. 2006. p 763</ref>
* A marked emphasis on the importance of service to humanity
* Emphasis on the importance of group consciousness and group service
* A shift away from personal devotion to spiritual teachers or masters
* A lengthy treatment of the seven rays as expressions of evolving life
* An elaboration of the glamours or illusions of the spiritual path
* Teachings on the return of the Christ or Christ consciousness
* Teachings on the importance of full moon cycles in relation to meditation


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===The Seven Rays of energy===


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Underlying her writings is the idea that all is energy and that spirit, matter, and the psychic forces intermediate between them are forms of energy. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''A Treatise on the Seven Rays, Vol 3: Esoteric Astrology''. Lucis Trust. 1951. p 353</ref> This energy is life itself. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Esoteric Psychology I .'' Lucis Trust. 1936 p 194 </ref> From one essential energy, divinity, procedes seven rays that underly and shape the evolution of human life and the entire phenomenal world. <ref>Jurriaance, Aart, ''Bridges, " Bridges Trust, South Africa, c. 1978, p. 35 & 73</ref> On a cosmic level these seven rays of energy are the creative forces of planets and stars. On a microcosmic level they are the creative forces conditioning the physical, psychic, and spiritual constitution of man. (Jurriaance, p. 73-152)


==] case==
In Bailey's concept the rays and all things manifest in centers of energy and their relationships. <ref>Bailey, Alice A., ''The Destiny of the Nations, Lucis Trust, 1949, p 129</ref> All rays and centers are focuses of some type of evolving life or consciousness. (Jurriaance, p. 35-52) This includes everything from atoms to centers or chakars in the human consitution, and upwards through the human aura to groups of humans as centers, and cities and nations as centers. (Jurriaance, p. 79- 90 ) Humanity as a whole is conceived as a center of energy as are the masters of wisdom of which she writes. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''A Treatise on the Seven Rays, Vol 3: Esoteric Astrology''. Lucis Trust. 1951. p 22</ref> Likewise, planet Earth as a whole, with all its subsidary centers of life, is viewed as a center of life within the large life or divinity of our solar system.
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The concept of the rays can also be found in Theosophical works. <ref>Wood, Ernest, ''The Seven Rays,'' Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Illinois, 1925</ref> Campbell writes that Bailey, "...was the first to develop the idea of the seven rays, although it can be found in germ in earlier Theosophical writings." <ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 153</ref>

===The constitution of man===

In line with previous Theosophical teachings,<ref>Leadbeater, C. W., ''A Textbook Of Theosophy,'' The Theosophical Publishing House, India, 1914, chapter I</ref> Bailey taught that man is a soul working through a personality where the personality consists of mind, emotions, and body.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Esoteric Healing.'' Lucis Trust. 1953 p 564</ref><ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Initiation Human and Solar,'' Lucis Trust. 1922 p IV, chart III</ref> Mind and emotions are conceived, not simply as ephemeral brain effects but as psychical energies that are part of the aura or inner constition of individuals. She uses the traditional terms for these of etheric body, astral body and mental body. These auric aspects of the human being are defined as partial eminations or expressions of the soul. "Soul" is the synomym for evolving consciousness.<ref>Jurriaance, Aart, ''Bridges, " Bridges Trust, South Africa, c. 1978, p. 130, 77, 91, 105</ref>

In Bailey's writings, evolution is defined as a process of personality integration and alignment of personality with soul. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''A Treatise on the Seven Rays, Vol 3: Esoteric Astrology''. Lucis Trust. 1951. p 364</ref> It is this transformation that leads toward right human relationships and spirtual revelation or awakening. (Bailey, p. 378) Steps on the spirtual path are "initiations," which is to say an evolution that is an entering into new and wider fields of consciousness, relationships, responsibilites, and power.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Initiation Human and Solar,'' Lucis Trust. 1922 p16</ref><ref>Bailey, Alice A., ''From Bethlehem to Calvary'' Lucis Trust. 1953, p 204</ref> In terms of her ray concept, the note of the soul is imposed on or superimposed on the note of the personality.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Esoteric Healing.'' Lucis Trust. 1953 p 564</ref><ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Initiation Human and Solar,'' Lucis Trust. 1922 p 132</ref>

===The spiritual hierarchy===

She wrote that, behind all human evolution stands a brotherhood of enlightened souls who have guided and aided humanity throughout history. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Externalization of the Hierarchy,'' Lucis Trust. 1957. p 260)</ref>For Bailey, the evolution of humanity is intimately bound up with its relationship to this spiritual hierarchy. The stimulating and uplifting influences of religions, philosophies, sciences, educational movements, and human culture in general are the result of this relationship.<ref>Jurriaance, Aart, ''Bridges, " Bridges Trust, South Africa, c. 1978, p. 209, 261, 268</ref> Though in time humanity debases all these developments, they are all in their original impetus, conceived as the result of spiritual hierarchy working in concert with evolving human potentials.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 275</ref><ref>Bailey, Alice A, ''From Intellect to Intuition'' 1932 Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 132</ref><ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Discipleship in the New Age, Volume 1''. Lucis Trust. 1944. p 163 </ref>

===Discipleship===

Bailey elaborates the relation of humanity to hierarchy in her teaching on "Discipleship in the New Age." In this scheme, all awakening souls stand in some relationship--offen unconscioussly but sometime conscioussly--to a particular "Master of Wisdom." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Externalization of the Hierarchy,'' Lucis Trust. 1957. p 307)</ref><ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''A Treatise on Cosmic Fire,'' Lucis Trust. 1925, p. 465</ref> The integrated personality, coming under the influence of the soul, is simultaneously coming under the influence of Master.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Discipleship in the New Age, Volume 1''. Lucis Trust. 1944. p 688</ref> This relationship is said to be conditioned by karma, by evolutionary status, and by the potential for work to be done on behalf of humanity.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Discipleship in the New Age, Volume 1''. Lucis Trust. 1944. p 103</ref> This "service" aspect is greatly emphasized in Bailey's writings.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 37</ref> In her concept, the evolutionary master-pupil relationship is made possible in and through service to humanity. Bailey's writing downplays the devotional and aspirtional aspects of the spirtual life in favor of service or work on behalf of humanity. According to her, this is primarly, and everything hinges upon that.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. pp 267</ref> "Discipleship" in her thought means work, service, and the evolution of those sensitivites and powers that enhance that labor. (Bailey, p. 38)

===Unity and divinity of nations and groups===

Underlying Alice Bailey's writings are the central concepts of unity and divinity . <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Esoteric Astrology,'' Lucis Trust. 1951. p 7)</ref> And with regard to races and religions she asserted that, "Every class of human beings is a group of brothers. Catholics, Jews, Gentiles, occidentals and orientals are all the sons of God." She believed that an individuals primary allegiance is to humanity and not to any subgroup with it: "I call you to no organizational loyalties, but only to love your fellowmen, be they German, American, Jewish, British, French, Negro or Asiatic." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Externalization of the Hierarchy,'' Lucis Trust. 1957. p 208)</ref>

Douglas Russell, who cites Alice Bailey, writes of the "one humanity" concept as as belonging to Psychosynthesis:

<blockquote>
"The Universal Self is experienced as complete transcendence of separate individual or group identity. Its awareness is planetary consciousness and its will is the unfolding evolutionary pattern of humanity and all life on earth-the Universal Will. It has been described as union with cosmic forces, at-one-ment with a Divine Being, or as identification with the one Humanity as an organism within a living planetary entity."
</blockquote>

This philosophy derives from the influence of Alice Bailey as Dr. Roberto Assagioli, founder of Psychosynthesis, was closely associated with her:

<blockquote>
"It should be noted that Assagioli was closely associated with Alice Bailey in the 1930s. He published early work in her magazine "The Beacon" and was for a time a trustee of the Lucis Trust, Bailey's umbrella organization after World War II." <ref>Roberts, Richard H., & Joanne Pearson, Geoffrey Samuel, ''Nature Religion Today: paganism in the modern world,'' p.44</ref>
</blockquote>

===Human equality and religion===

Bailey emphasized the equality of all men everywhere, and believed that national and religious affiliations are accidents of birth and they should see their group identifications as something enabling them to contribute to humanity as a whole:

<blockquote>"World democracy will take form when men everywhere are regarded in reality as equal; when boys and girls are taught that it does not matter whether a man is an Asiatic, an American, a European, British, a Jew or a Gentile but only that each has an historical background which enables him to contribute something to the good of the whole, that the major requirement is an attitude of goodwill and a constant effort to foster right human relations. World Unity will be a fact when the children of the world are taught that religious differences are largely a matter of birth; that if a man is born in Italy, the probability is that he will be a Roman Catholic; if he is born a Jew, he will follow the Jewish teaching; if born in Asia, he may be a Mohammedan, a Buddhist, or belong to one of the Hindu sects; if born in other countries, he may be a Protestant and so on."<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Problems of Humanity,'' Lucis Trust. 1947. p 61)</ref> </blockquote>

Ross describes her writiings as emphasizing the "underlying unity of all forms of life," and the "essential onensss of all religions, of all departments of science, and of all the philosophies" <ref>Ross, Joseph E., ''Krotona of Old Hollywood, Vol. II'' Joseph Ross, 2004, p. 398</ref>

She believed that all religions originate from the same spiritual source, and that humanity will eventually come to realize this. As they do so, she claimed that it will result in the emergence of a universal world religion.

<blockquote>Then there will be neither Christian nor heathen, neither Jew nor Gentile, but simply one great body of believers, gathered out of all the current religions. They will accept the same truths, not as theological concepts but as essential to spiritual living; they will stand together on the same platform of brotherhood and of human relations; they will recognize divine sonship and will seek unitedly to cooperate with the divine Plan, as it is revealed to them by the spiritual leaders of the race, and as it indicates to them the next step to be taken on the Path of Approach to God. Such a world religion is no idle dream but something which is definitely forming today." (Bailey, p 140)</blockquote>

<blockquote>
"World Goodwill has also promoted the idea of a 'new group of world servers': that is, a group of all races, classes and creeds who 'serve the Plan, humanity, the Hierarchy and the Christ'" <ref>Sutcliffe, Steven J, ''Children of the New Age: A History of Spiritual Practices.'' Routledge, 2003, p 51</ref>
</blockquote>

Campbell notes that the New Group of World Servers, was established for "...promotion of international understanding, economic sharing, and religious unity."<ref>Campbell, Bruce, F., ''Ancient Wisdom Revived, a History of the Theosophical Movement, Berkely, 1980, p. 153</ref>

====On orthodox Christianity====

Bailey believed in the return of "Christ" but her concept had little in common with that of the orthodox Christian churches. She saw Christ as essentially the energy of love and his "return" as the awakening of that energy in human consciousness. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Esoteric Astrology,'' Lucis Trust. 1951. p. 471)</ref> She introduces the radical idea that the new Christ might be "no particular faith at all":

<blockquote>"The development of spiritual recognition is the great need today in preparation for His reappearance; no one knows in what nation He will come; He may appear as an Englishman, a Russian, a Negro, a Latin, a Turk, a Hindu, or any other nationality. Who can say which? He may be a Christian or a Hindu by faith, a Buddhist or of no particular faith at all; He will not come as the restorer of any of the ancient religions, including Christianity, but He will come to restore man's faith in the Father's love, in the fact of the livingness of the Christ and in the close, subjective and unbreakable relationship of all men everywhere." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Reappearance of the Christ,'' p 190)</ref></blockquote>

In Bailey's thought, no one group can claim him&mdash;the ] Christ belongs to whole world and not to Christians or any nation or group. Bailey was highly critical of orthodox Christianity, and according to her, the Church-based theology about Christ's return is false:

<blockquote>"He will not come to convert the 'heathen' world for, in the eyes of the Christ and of His true disciples, no such world exists and the so-called heathen have demonstrated historically less of the evil of vicious conflict than has the militant Christian world. The history of the Christian nations and of the Christian church has been one of an aggressive militancy - the last thing desired by the Christ when He sought to establish the church on earth." (Bailey, p 110)</blockquote>

The divorce between orthodox Christianity and Bailey's thought can be seen in the fact that the book ''Nature Religion Today: paganism in the modern world'' contains seven references to Alice Bailey. <ref>Roberts, Richard H., & Joanne Pearson, Geoffrey Samuel, ''Nature Religion Today: paganism in the modern world'', Edinburgh University Press, 1998,pp 34, 41&ndash;43, 203, 219</ref>, and the affinity of some of Bailey's concepts with ] is also cited by Kemp in ''New Age: A Guide''.<ref>Kemp, Daren, ''New Age: A Guide,'' Edinburgh University Press, 2004, p. 57</ref>

====On fanaticism and intolerance====

Alice Bailey spoke out strongly against all forms of fanaticism and intolerance."<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Externalization of the Hierarchy,'' Lucis Trust. 1957. pp 17, 384)</ref> She saw this fanaticism in churches, in nationalism, and in competing esoteric schools. (Bailey pp. 15 & 453) <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Problems of Humanity,'' Lucis Trust. 1947. p. 120</ref> She associated this fanaticism with unintelligent devotion:

<blockquote>"Those who look back to the past, who hang on to the old ways, the ancient theologies.… These are the followers of a Church and a government, who are distinguished by a pure devotion and love, but refuse recognition to the divine intelligence with which they are gifted. Their devotion, their love of God, their strict but misguided conscience, their intolerance mark them out as devotees, but they are blinded by their own devotion and their growth is limited by their fanaticism. They belong mostly to the older generation and the hope for them lies in their devotion and the fact that evolution itself will carry them forward …" <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''A Treatise on White Magic,'' Lucis Trust. 1934. p. 328</ref> </blockquote>

===Races===

For Bailey, the matter of prime importance was not race or religion but the evolution of consciousness that transcends these:

<blockquote>"… there is no new race in process of appearing, from the territorial angle; there is only a general distribution of those persons who have what have been called the sixth root race characteristics. This state of consciousness will find its expression in people as far apart racially as the Japanese and the American or the Negro and the Russian." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Rays and the Initiations,'' Lucis Trust. 19607. p. 593-594)</ref></blockquote>

Bailey criticized many nations, groups and religions based on what she believed were violations of the spirit of unity and brotherhood. For example, while praising them in some respects, in the United States and France she saw political corruption. <ref>Bailey, Alice A. '' Esoteric Astrology.'' Lucis Trust. 1947 p 526</ref> <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Problems of Humanity.'' Lucis Trust. 1947 p 16</ref> She regarded the talk about a free press as largely an illusory ideal and stated, "… particularly is it absent in the United States, where parties and publishers dictate newspaper policies." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Externalization of the Hierarchy .'' Lucis Trust. 1947 p 452 </ref> She believed the source of human problems is the spirit of separation that causes individuals and groups to set themselves apart from the rest of humanity:

<blockquote>"We could take the nations, one by one, and observe how this nationalistic, separative or isolationist spirit, emerging out of an historical past, out of racial complexes, out of territorial position, out of revolt and out of possession of material resources, has brought about the present world crisis and cleavage and this global clash of interests and ideals." (Bailey, p. 375)</blockquote>

====On the Jewish people====

She criticized the Jews and spoke against ], believing it to be, "… contrary to the lasting good of mankind." (Bailey p. 680). At the same time she spoke out strongly against hatred of the Jews and believed in a future in which they would "fuse and blend with the rest of mankind." <ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''Esoteric Psychology I .'' Lucis Trust. 1936 p 401 </ref> In her autobiography Bailey stated that she was on Hitler's "blacklist," and she believed it was because of her defense of the Jews during her lectures throughout Europe.<ref>Bailey, Alice A. ''The Unfinished Autobiography''. Lucis Trust. 1951. p 119)</ref> Bailey also criticized the cruelty of the Gentile for his treatment of the Jews:

<blockquote>"God has made all men equal; the Jew is a man and a brother, and every right that the Gentile owns is his also, inalienably and intrinsically his. This the Gentile has forgotten and great is his responsibility for wrong doing and cruel action." (Bailey, p. 401)</blockquote>

==Influence==

Sir John Sinclair, Bt., gives a commentary on the seminal influence of Alice Bailey, which he says underlies the consciousness growth movement in the 20th century. <ref>Sinclair, Sir John R. ''The Alice Bailey Inheritance''. Turnstone Press Limited. 1984.</ref> In ''Perspectives on the New Age'' we find, "The most important&mdash;though certainly not the only&mdash;source of this transformative metaphor, as well as the term "New Age," was ], particularly as the Theosophical perspective was mediated to the movement by the works of Alice Bailey." <ref>Lewis, James R. and J. Gordon Melton. ''Perspectives on the New Age''. SUNY Press. 1992. p xi </ref>

In a book on history of the ] Foundation and its pervasive influence on American intellectual life, William McGuire wrote:

<blockquote>"In 1928 Olga built a lecture hall on her grounds, overlooking the lake, for a purpose not yet revealed to her, and a guest house which she named Casa Shanti in a Hindu ceremony. A year or two later, she went to the United States and sought out Alice A. Bailey, in Stamford, Connecticut, a former Theosophists who led a movement called the Arcane School. Mrs Bailey, whom Nancy Wilson Ross has described as a woman of great dignity, kindness, and integrity, aimed like Olga Froebe at the raising of consciousness and the bridging of the East and West. She lived with a mystic presence, ‘the Tibetan,’ presumably one of the Theosophical Masters, who used her as an instrument to write a number of books devoted to Higher Truth…” <ref>McGuire, William. ''An Adventure in Collecting the Past''. Princeton University Press. 1989, p 23</ref></blockquote>

Bailey has been cited in numerous professional journals, <ref>Views and Counterviews, Dialog: A Journal of Theology, Volume 41, Issue 1, Page 78&ndash;80</ref><ref>Views and Counterviews, Dialog: Mar 2002 and Volume 40, Issue 4, Page 302&ndash;312, Dec 2001</ref><ref>The Journal of American Culture, Volume 7, Issue 1&ndash;2, Page 131&ndash;139, Mar 1984</ref><ref>The "I am" Sect Today: An Unobituary: The Journal of Popular Culture, Volume 8, Issue 4, Page 897&ndash;905, Mar 1975</ref><ref>Reviews in Religion & Theology, Volume 10, Issue 3, Page 306-347, Jun 2003</ref><ref>The History of Modern Occultism: A Bibliographical Survey Robert Galbreath</ref> and Wessinger cites Bailey as one of the liberated women, "… sixty years before it became popular." <ref>Wessinger, Catherine Lowman, ''Women's Leadership in Marginal Religions: Explorations Outside The Mainstream.'' University of Illinois, Press, 1993, p. 80</ref> She writes:

<blockquote>
"The books produced in this manner express a millennial view similar to that of Besant, including the expectation of the World-Teacher or Christ. The Bailey works and their focus on the 'New Age' or 'Age of Aquarius' are an important source of the contemporary New Age movement." (Wessinger, p. 80)
</blockquote>

Bailey's thought has had an influence in the field of Psychotherapy and Healing. "In Tansley as in Brennan you will find descriptions of a hierarchy of subtle bodies called the etheric, emotional, mental and spiritual that surround the physical body. (Interestingly Tansley attributed the source of his model to Alice Bailey’s theosophical commentary on The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the locus classicus of Hindu teaching.)"<ref>Woolger, Roger J. ''The Presence of Other Worlds In Psychotherapy and Healing'' from a paper delivered at the Beyond the Brain Conference held at St. John’s College, Cambridge University, England, 1999.</ref>

Dr G. D. Chryssides of the ], cites Bailey's influence on the ideas of the ] and related organisations.<ref> presented at the CESNUR Conference held in Palermo, Sicily, 2005.</ref>

An article in Encyclopedia Britannica says that Alice Bailey founded the Arcane School to disseminate spiritual teachings and that she organized a world-wide 'Triangles' program to bring people together in groups of three for daily meditation. Their belief was that they received divine energy through meditation and this energy is transmitted to humanity, so raising spiritual awareness.

"After Bailey's death, former members of the Arcane School created a host of new independent theosophical groups within which hopes of a New Age flourished. These groups claimed the ability to transmit spiritual energy to the world and allegedly received channeled messages from various preternatural beings …" <ref>"New Age Movement," subsection "Origins," in ''Encylcopedia Britannica.'' 2003</ref>

Alice Bailey's influence can be found in the many groups currently disseminating her teachings and practicing her meditation methods, some of which have an active presence on the internet.

==Controversy==
===Racism and antisemitism===

In 1998, Dr. Victor Shnirelman, a ] and ], surveyed modern ] in ], drawing particular attention to "… groups take an extremely negative view of multi-culturalism, object to the 'mixture' of kinds, support isolationism and the prohibition of immigration." He noted that a number of Bailey's books, as well as those of her contemporary ], had been recently translated into Russian, and said that "… racist and antisemitic trends are explicit, for example, in the occult teachings of Alice Bailey (founder of the New Age movement) and her followers, who wish to cleanse Christianity of its 'Jewish inheritance' and reject the 'Jewish Bible' as a prerequisite for entering the Age of Aquarius."<ref name=Shnirelman> in ''Acta no. 13, Analysis of Current Trends in Antisemitism.'' The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. 1998. Retrieved ]</ref>

], a ]-born ] artist, radical feminist, and advocate of the ], wrote in her book, ''New Age Channelings - Who or What is being Channeled?'', of Bailey's "reactionary and racist influence on the whole ] movement."<ref name=Sjoo>]. in ''From the Flames - Radical Feminism with Spirit'' issue 22. Winter 1998/1999. Retrieved ].</ref>


The ] ] author Rabbi ] in his article "Antisemitic Stereotypes in Alice Bailey's Writings," replied to Bailey's plan for a ] by saying that her call for "the gradual dissolution&mdash;again if in any way possible&mdash;of the ] faith" revealed that "her goal is nothing less than the destruction of ] itself."<ref name=Gershom>]. . 1997, revised 2005. Retrieved ].</ref>

===Prophecies and obscurity===

Stephenson analyzed the prophecies contained in the Alice Bailey works, breaking them down into dated and undated prophecies, prophecies confirmed, and non-determinable. <ref>Stephenson, James, ''Prophecy on trial: Dated prophecies from the Djwhal Khul (the Tibetan) to Alice Bailey, transmissions of 1919-1949''</ref> While some some her prophecies appear to have been accurate, others do not. For instance, Bailey states, "From the chair of the Pope of Rome, the Master Jesus will attempt to swing that great branch of the religious beliefs of the world again into a position of spiritual power and away from its present authoritative and temporary political potency." <ref>Bailey, Alice A., ''The Destiny of the Nations, Lucis Trust, 1949, p 59</ref>

Roberts criticizes Bailey's writings as not empirical, naturalistic or humanistic but rather romantic and symbolical with a bewildering variety of terms. <ref>Roberts, Richard H., & Joanne Pearson, Geoffrey Samuel, ''Nature Religion Today: paganism in the modern world,'' p.42</ref>

===Conflicts with competing schools of thought===

Writing from a Christian church perspective,Bromley says:

"After World War II, Eastern thought was filtered through (and more or less distored by) the likes of Manley Palmer Hall, Alice Bailey, Baird T. Spaulding, and Edwin Dingle. Possibly more important than their individual teachings, however, occultists as a group hammered home the central idea, 'The East is the true home of spiritual knowledge and occult wisdom.' <ref name="bromley1">{{cite book | last = Bromley | first =David G.| coauthors = Phillip E. Hammond | title =The Future of New Religious Movements | publisher = Mercer University Press | date = 1987 | pages = 15 | isbn = 0865542384}}</ref>

Bailey has been criticized by some religious writers because she wrote of Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, and Theosophical beliefs with authority while expressing non-conformity to the orthodox belief systems of these varied religious traditions.<ref name=Groothuis>]. ''Unmasking the New Age''. InterVarsity Press. 1986; p. 120.</ref>
<ref name=Watchman> in ''The Watchman Expositor''. Watchman Fellowship. 1996. Retrieved ].</ref>

Bailey's books have also been criticized as a form of ] by mainstream Theosophists who say that a great many of her ideas were borrowed from Theosophy while also including perspectives that were not part of the original Theosophical teachings of ].<ref name=Weeks>. Revised and expanded version of article that appeared in ''Fohat'' magazine. Summer 1997. ]. Retrieved ].</ref><ref name=Protogonus> from ''Protogonus'' magazine. Cleather and Basil Crump. Spring 1989. Retrieved ].</ref>

==Bibliography==
The Lucis Trust is the official publisher of Alice Bailey's books. A few books of Alice Bailey that are no longer under copyright are also available online at independent web sites.

'''Credited to Alice Bailey''' (works containing the prefatory ''Extract from a Statement by the Tibetan'', generally taken to indicate the book was a "received" work):
* ''Initiation, Human and Solar'' &mdash; 1922
* ''Letters on Occult Meditation'' &mdash; 1922
* ''A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'' &mdash; 1925
* ''Light of the Soul: The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali'' &mdash; 1927 (commentary by Alice Bailey)
* '']'' &mdash; 1934
* ''Discipleship in the New Age'' &mdash; Volume I - 1944
* ''Discipleship in the New Age'' &mdash; Volume II - 1955
* ''Problems of Humanity'' &mdash; 1947
* ''The Reappearance of the Christ'' &mdash; 1948
* ''The Destiny of the Nations'' &mdash; 1949
* ''Glamor - A World Problem'' &mdash; 1950
* ''Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle'' &mdash; 1950
* ''Education in the New Age'' &mdash; 1954
* ''The Externalization of the Hierarchy'' &mdash; 1957

* ''A Treatise on the Seven Rays'':
** Volume 1: Esoteric Psychology I &mdash; 1936
** Volume 2: Esoteric Psychology II &mdash; 1942
** Volume 3: Esoteric Astrology &mdash; 1951
** Volume 4: Esoteric Healing &mdash; 1953
** Volume 5: The Rays and the Initiations &mdash; 1960

'''Credited to Alice A. Bailey alone''' (works in which Bailey claims sole authorship of the material):
* ''The Consciousness of the Atom'' &mdash; 1922
* ''The Soul and its Mechanism'' &mdash; 1930
* ''From Intellect to Intuition'' &mdash; 1932
* ''From Bethlehem to Calvary'' &mdash; 1937
* ''The Unfinished Autobiography'' &mdash; 1951
* ''The Labors of Hercules'' &mdash; 1974
* ''The Labours of Hercules: An Astrological Interpretation'' &mdash; first published 1982

==See also==
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==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==

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Your name has been mentioned in connection with a ] case. Please refer to ] for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with ] before editing the evidence page. ] ] (formerly known as ]). 20:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


This version is way too heavy on quotes from primary sources. ] <small>]</small> 15:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


==File source problem with File:S t o x 22.jpg==
==RFA Thank You Note from Jehochman==
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==entries that urgently need tags==
My friend who is looking at Mensa connexions here says he knows only two other members of Mensa, Carol Vorderman & Clive Sinclair. Their articles are like fan pages, more than this one (Brian J. Ford page) ever was, and nearly all statements made have no sources. These need the famous tags put on them. This article (Brian J. Ford one)no longer needs tags. Will check to see standards are all the same for these pages, looks like just the Ford page is being bombarded and other bio pages are being built by people who know their subjects better!! ] 13:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


: If these other articles are "fan pages", please fix them. There are many articles in Misplaced Pages that are badly written, lack sources, etc. As we say in Misplaced Pages ]. As for the Ford article, please do not add superlatives and unsupported statements to the article. ] <small>]</small> 14:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


==File source problem with File:In still2.jpg==
== Your contributions are appreciated . ==
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Less than 2 months ago the Bailey article was ruled by the Alice Bailey fan club. They fought Cat and Kwork tooth and nail in an attempt to keep all references to Ms Bailey's antisemetism and or racism off the article. Thanks to the help of an admin named AnonEmouse and a member of the arbitration committee named Jpgordon (who is also and admin) the tables were eventually turned. To make a long story short the impression that you are getting is a very lopsided one. My guess is that you have no idea of the fact that they did things like refer to us as the Jewish Defense League , and accusing us of conspiring to ruin Ms Bailey's reputation. We just shrugged such comments off for the most part and tried to explain our position. Jpgordon did no editing whatsoever and AnonEmouse did almost none if any,


There is also a dandy case of Attempted Meat Puppetry that may eventually need to be dealt with. I say attempted but the fact of the matter is that the attempt was trailed by the appearence of a few single purpose editors. This information was kept from Jp Gordon and AnonEmouse until after the edit warring stopped.


==File permission problem with File:Portrait by Jossi Fresco.jpg==
As for the here and now I truly hope you stay. I am surprised that you took offense to what Catherine and Kwork had to say today. Maybe I missed something. You suggested that when we hit snags we can use the dispute process to help settle such disputes. I think everyone agrees with you about that. You know that process better than any of us do. Anyway consider this a belated welcome to the article from me and a sincere thank you for what you have contributed thus far. I do hope you decide to stay even if it is a little like pulling teeth at times.: ''Danny Weintraub :'' ] 08:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
]
Thanks for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file agreed to license it under the given license.


If you created this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either
: Thanks for the welcome. I have read the archives and I am aware of the history of this article and POVs at play.] <small>]</small> 15:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
* make a note permitting reuse under the ] or another acceptable free license (see ]) '''at the site of the original publication'''; or
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::You are probably already aware of the insincere arrogance of this group. just before his "welcome" to you:
:::''I am now fully aware of why you are concerned about Jossi. As you know Parsifal defended you. I am going to assume that Jossi has concentration problems. Please be careful Cat. You may be dealing with a loose cannon. '''Danny Weintraub''' : ] 10:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)'' 16:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


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==] article - Vandalism continues==
As soon as the restriction period over, it has been 4 edits done by 24.222.2.179 and 84.44.145.179 to mess-up the whole article and change of his birth year again. What shall I do? Is it possible to ask for permanent restriction to protect the article? Hopefully you could help. The article was put under protection before for the very same reason. Those people know exactly the duration for the protection, and now that it has over, they start doing it again - ] 14:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


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==Your Warning to Rex Germanus==
I've made good on your implicit warning with this block Please feel free to refactor the block if I've misunderstood the situation. - ] <sup>]</sup> 15:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


== File:Alfonsina y el Mar.jpg listed for deletion ==
==]==
A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} <!-- Template:Fdw --> <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">''']'''<sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 20:44, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


== File:Still Life digital.jpg listed for deletion ==
Hi Jossi:
A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} <!-- Template:Fdw --> <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">''']'''<sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 20:44, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
==File permission problem with File:Seth Godin.jpg==
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<blockquote>Regarding : '''There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Please do not make them. It is your responsibility to foster and maintain a positive online community in Misplaced Pages.'''</blockquote>


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It seems to me that you are not distinguishing between a discussion on user talk pages and personal attacks on an article talk page. I could collect at least a dozen statements about me on user talk pages that are ''far'' worse than this. I have occasionally argued over those statements, but never issued a warning which I think would amount to trying to inhibit free speech in the context of user pages. I have no idea what Misplaced Pages rules are about this, but the result of warnings over such discussion would be to have editors turn to email for discussing issues that would be better discussed in the open. ] 17:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


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: About "free speech", please read ]: ''Misplaced Pages is not a forum for unregulated free speech.'' ] <small>]</small> 20:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


==Fair use rationale for File:Casabella 471.jpg==
*Jossi, on this we do not agree. Certainly civility is a wonderful thing. But, if you think it can be imposed through Misplaced Pages rules, you are wrong. All such rules can produce is an ''1984'' style thought police enforcment of rules against ]. So the beauty in civility becomes degraded into the ugliness of secret surveillance, warnings, and enforcement through penalties or the threat of penalties. I want no part of that. ] 00:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
]
: We should focus on ''the article'', shall we? ] <small>]</small>
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==not easy==
:I copied the Fair Use Rationale from ]. --] (]) 19:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


==Orphaned non-free image File:Concierto aranjuez .jpg==
Hi Jossi. When you started editing I said this: "out of fairness, I should tell you at this early point, that you are likely to regret taking on editing this article". The editing situation for this article ''is'' difficult, and I hope that what I said is not already coming true. (I know that I am one reason that it is difficult, but there is a reason I do things the way I do.) In any case, the view I always try to maintain is that people always do what they think is right, and it is not possible for other people to see things the same way I do. Under other circumstances those same opponents might well become friends.
<span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently ], meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. ] if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).


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Anyhow, Jossi, try to be patient. The article has gotten better, and you have been a help. But it is natural for people to argue. To put it in Alice Bailey terminology, humanity itself, as a whole, is ruled by the 4th Ray which is called "harmony through conflict". ] 20:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


==MfD nomination of ]==
: I have a thick skin, but I will not tolerate uncivil comments regardless who is making them, and regardless of the context in which these are made. A good and vigorous debate is appreciated, but the arguments have to be made ''about the edits'', and not ''about the editors''. Now, if we can move on from this, that would be indeed appreciated.] <small>]</small> 20:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 23:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


== ] of ] ==
::No "uncivil comments". That is a beautiful dream I have had. For the past seven months my personality has been the favorite subject of most editors who oppose me. Perhaps you would like to add some items to this list.] 20:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] 21:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

==]==

Hi jossi,

] is attempting to edit war his changes into FRINGE, and refuses to discuss them on the talk page, accusing me of gaming the system. I don't know what should be done in the situation, but I ask you to take action and do whatever admins do here. I tried earlier to revert to the stable version, and he just reverted back and made accusations. Thanks (; ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 22:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

== I apologise ==

From now on I will make any comments that may be taken out of context via Wiki Email. With that said. I said what I said in response to the way you accused Cat of making obvious original research. She took it as an insult. I have concentration problems. I misread texts on a regular basis. What I said
was not intended to be hurtful. I apologise. ] 00:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

== Oh yes the loose cannon reference. ==

I was warning Cat because your status as an admin caused me to be concerned. I did not realize that you came to the article as an editor only. I apologize for that too. I can walk on eggs with the best of them.

I think you are over reacting too but I also now know that in terms of wiki civility policy you have that right. I apologise. ''Danny Weintraub'' : ] 00:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
: Apology accepted. Let us put all that behind without bad feelings. ] <small>]</small> 01:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes please lets do that, I have no bad feeling towards you. I think you are a valuable asset to that article : ] 02:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC): ] 02:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

== Talk page change ==
You're aware of ] changing the signature of one of my talk page comments. I've never seen this done before, and I really don't know how to react to it. It's not even clear to me ''why'' he'd make that particular change. I'm a bit baffled, but I was willing to ignore it when it happened. It isn't really shocking to me, just bizarre. Wearing your admin hat, do you feel some action should be taken? I assume if you did, you'd have asked another admin to have a look? ] 08:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, you linked to ], which is a redirect to ]. I bet you have in fact never been called that. ;^) Did you actually mean ], or were you just being clever? ] 08:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

A very similar thing happened to me on this particular page, pursuant to what I had said on Cats page but it also contained message that alerted Jossi to what I said on cats talk page. It contained my signature but I never copied any of it to this page . It was very Bizarre indeed. I thought of it as a glitch of some sort. I cannot figure out who did it or why. : ] 09:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)



==please respond on my talk page==

Dear Jossi, after reading your Wiki bio I can see that you're a compassionate man. I am making an appeal not only to your compassion but also appealing to your strong adherence to Misplaced Pages guidelines, rules and standards. This may not be a good time because I feel ill and shocked at the mean spiritedness that I just read on the Alice Bailey discussion. I would not be writing to you now, if not for the spark of decency from someone--asking them to stop. And another for timidly giving a good explanation for what may have occurred. I am guessing "timidly" because anyone that dares to defend a spokesman for Alice Bailey has been repeatedly accused of being an Anti-Semitic or a racist. The discussion section verifies this.

The Alice Bailey article is currently being shaped by those with a "personal view". The editors are biased, have little or no knowledge of the subject. And are not following Misplaced Pages rules of finding the the best verifiable sources, but are selecting sources that support what they want to say. And will insult and delete the work of anyone who tries to give a more balanced and scholarly picture. My personal talk page is still active if you want to reply there. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Thanks, ] 16:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

==''Signpost'' updated for October 15th, 2007.==

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==Fair use rationale for File:Marzeah_Papyrus-hi.jpg==
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==Yahweh==
Just saw your long sequence of edits on ]. Maybe you should compare start and end once more yourself. Many things are improvements, but some destroy the grammar of a sentence - e.g. in Noun Phrase started when ..., which you changed into Noun Phrase. It started ... - or cause unbalanced parentheses. In some cases a reference with less reputable source lost the source URL, turning it into something unverifiable. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Thanks of the feedback. I will take a look and see if I made any deletions. ] <small>]</small> 01:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


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==] nomination of ]==
== Brettingham ==
]
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A tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because the article appears to be a clear ] infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of ''information'', but not as a source of ''sentences''. This part is crucial: ''say it in your own words''. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators '''will be ]'''.


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Is there a point to wikifying all the years like that - also I was making some changes with the in use tag on! ] 15:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
: Did I mess anything? Sorry. As for wkfying years, why not? ] <small>]</small> 15:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
: Feel free to undo. ] <small>]</small> 15:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
::Not worth undoing, but the corrent thought is that there is no need to link every year unless it is very important to the article ] 15:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
::: I see. Let's just link then to the decade only such as ], where useful. ] <small>]</small> 15:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


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==Fringe again==


== File:Kaltura Logo.png listed for deletion ==
Would you mind reverting to the stable version and then protecting FRINGE? SA has continued to edit war his new changes to the text, before achieving consensus on the talk page. Thanks again, ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 21:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 18:02, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
== File:Copperplate Gothic 29BC.png listed for deletion ==
A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] <sup>]</sup> 04:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
== ] of ] ==
]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 18:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


== Article notability notification ==
:Martin, you have refused to discuss the rationale behind your version on the talkpage. At this point, it looks like you are trying to get a ] to help you ] the guideline by asking for this. ] 12:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


] Hello. This message is to inform you that an article that you wrote, ], has been recently tagged with a notability notice. This means that it may not meet Misplaced Pages's ]. Please note that articles which do not meet these criteria may be ], ], or ]. Please consider adding ] to the article in order to establish the topic's notability. You may find the following links useful when searching for sources: {{find sources multi
And yet again. I was hoping, per requests on talk page, that he'd discuss the reasons for his changes before inserting them. I want to know exactly how the changes might change the articles ''before'' they are inserted. ——''']'''</span><sub> (] Ψ ])</sub> 21:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
|1 = Richard Regan
|2 =
|3 =
|4 =
|5 =


|introtext = ''Find sources:''&nbsp;
==Berlin article==
|introlink = g
Please change the version to the established one
|introseparator = &nbsp;–&nbsp;
before the page gets protection.
The version you protected is the disputed one. ] 00:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


|link1 = gnews
Another request: can you convert the huge tag into something discreet? The current tag distracts the
|display1 = {{#if: | free news | news }}
readability of the articles introduction. ] 01:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
|link2 = gbooks
|display2 = books
|link3 = gscholar
|display3 = scholar
|link4 = jstor
|display4 = JSTOR
|link5 = gfreeimages
|display5 = free images


|free =
:The version that is disputed is actually Lear21's version which insists that Berlin is the 2nd largest city in the EU. I understand Lear21 is from Berlin, and we all like to present our cities as the best this or the biggest that, but it is quite POV to use one narrow definition of city (administrative limits of the central municipality) to claim that Berlin is the 2nd largest city in Europe, when in fact its urban area is only the 9th most populated in Europe, way behind cities like Paris, London or Madrid. Lear21 has preserved his disputed wording of the introduction (what he refers to as the "established version") by systematically reverting editors who tried to UNPOV that "2nd largest city" claim, and this for many months now (see ). So it's a bit of bad faith for him to claim that his version of the article is the undisputed one. ] 16:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


: I will respond in article's talk page. ] <small>]</small> 17:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


}}. Thank you for editing Misplaced Pages! <!-- NOVOXEL:{{{1}}} --> ] 22:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
There are discreet options protecting an article. Using an oversized template at the top of the article
is out of proportion considering a minor incident (edit dispute) like this. Please reconsider changing the tag. ] 20:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


== An RfC that you ''may'' be interested in... ==
: You can request unprotection, if ready to resume editing without edit-wars, at ] ] <small>]</small> 23:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


As one of the previous contributors to {{Tl|Infobox film}} or as one of the commenters on it's talk page, I would like to inform you that there has been a ] started on the talk page as to ]. Your comments and thoughts on the matter would be welcomed. Happy editing!
Well, here IS the request for unprotection. YOU are the one, responsible for the actions. Here is the place for asking. So please, again, reverse your measure, remove at least the tag or the protection at all. There is no justification to clutter an 80kb article with a tag in an edit dispute over half a phrase for a whole week. Thanks in advance ] 02:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
: <small>This message was sent by ] (]) on behalf of <span class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;]&#125;&#125;</span> <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup> 18:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)</small>
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== Proposed deletion of Rob Preece ==
:Sorry, but that is not the process. I have protected the article because there was edit warring, false WP:ANI/3RR reports, etc. You can contest the protection by asking another admin to review it. Do so at ]. Any further comments here will be ignored. ] <small>]</small> 03:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
]


The article ] has been ]&#32; because of the following concern:
Your actions have proofed a lack of proportion. You also proofed unable to apply the administrative functions in a flexible manner. This procedure is hardly convincing to be responsible. ] 12:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
:'''Easily even speedy and PROD material as my searches found nothing better than some passing mentions, and otherwise unusable for notability, at News, Books and browsers.'''


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be ].
Please change the tag to a discreet version as long as the article has to be protected. You are responsible for that. ] 14:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:: You know what? I will remove the protection and keep an eye on the article. Note that any further recurring edit warring by you or others in that article, will result in the ]. ] <small>]</small> 18:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


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== Johnny Cash ==


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What did I do to Johnny Cash?
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Please respond on my talk page, I'll never find my way back here...
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== German Neo Nazis ==


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Hi Jossi
== Nomination for deletion of Template:Protection msg ==
]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> <span style="color:green">'''Ten Pound Hammer'''</span> • <sup>(])</sup> 04:11, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
==MfD nomination of ]==
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== ] of ] ==
]


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<blockquote>orphaned image, no encyclopedic use</blockquote>


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I would like to urge you very importantly to look at all the Pages containing references to the Holy Roman Empire in the Misplaced Pages german, swiss, Luxembourg etc. sites: Here NeoNazis are at work, who try by stealth to place their ideology in wikipedia. See Celle "Bunny Hunt" Roman Holy Empire, Goslar etc. Get the editor of this article and hold him responsible. Other Nations are offended by this and the facts of the Holy Roman Empire do not mirror the reality: as well as that of the Reichszirkel. Here history is being perverted and the least thing i would like to see is that Misplaced Pages is used as A PLATFORM FOR NAZI idiology. If this continues, i shall refer this to the press that you habour Nazi writiers amongst your contributors. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


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==Teachings of Prem Rawat==


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Hi Jossi,


<span style="color:red;font-weight:bold;">This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the ] of each individual file for details.</span> Thanks, ] (]) 01:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes I agree, it is just a stub, but I am having a little trouble proceeding. Any helpful advice would be appreciated. Thanks. ] 14:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
: I am sure you can do much better without me... but I will try and offer some ideas.You also need to add <nowiki>{{Teachings of Prem Rawat}} </nowiki> at the beginning of the section. ] <small>]</small> 14:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


== ] of ] ==
== ] ==
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
Good morning Jossi.
<blockquote>'''Orphaned file with no obvious value in transferring to Commons'''</blockquote>


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
How are you ? I have returned to Misplaced Pages for the first time in a couple of months today- my traditional long weekend contribution was due.


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I haven't had a look for a couple of months due to falling pregnant and hence being rather busy and tired. However the content of Western Calligraphy has been entirely hacked apart. My bibliography remains at the end of the article but the refences to which they refer have been entirely removed along with the text.


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I see that this process was started in July and again further pursued this month by two different writers of no evident merit on trhis subject. Are you able to take the page back to what it was in say May and we can work from there?


== ] of ] ==
I am surprised that I have not been told of this as we could have saved the page from the ruinous consequences of these editors.
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
Look forward to hearing from you. Certainly the edits that have been performed no longer allow te page to be regarded as based on reliable published authority. I would appreciate it if you could email me directly please. Calligraphy@xtra.co.nz
<blockquote>'''Orphaned file with no obvious value in transferring to Commons'''</blockquote>


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
Kind regards,
Alison Furminger <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
: Hello Alison. Nice to see you back. I think that what editors are doing there is to add inline citations rather than Harvard style citations. I will take a look. ] <small>]</small> 21:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


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== Celts ==


== ] of ] ==
I have reverted your edits to the modern usage section, as the article states the nations are based on the "criterion employed by the Celtic League and the Celtic Congress. In this sense, there are six modern nations that can be defined as Celtic: Brittany, Cornwall, '''Ireland''', the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales". To replace Ireland with the republic, in my opinion is unjustified, as well as being secterian. If you do want the republic listed as a seperate entity to Ireland, it would not be unreasonable to add Northern Ireland to the list as well. Some would class using the poliitical entities as ] (It has been quite heavily warred over in ]), I would be quite ambivalent. ] 11:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
:The Irish flag was changed from the four provinces flag ] to the tricolour {{flag|Ireland}} by . I don't think it was intentional. I've changed it back to the four provs flag. ] 13:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
<blockquote>'''Orphaned file with no obvious value in transferring to Commons'''</blockquote>


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
::Thanks, that is a vast improvemment ] 16:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


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== ] ==
Hello Jossi, thank you for your message and invitation to discourse with you on your talk page. I would like to add the following information to the "God" article under the entry "El" as a Name of God: According to The Oxford Companion To World Mythology (David Leeming, Oxford University Press, 2005, page 118), "It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the 'God of Abraham'...If El was the high god of Abraham - Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh - Asherah was his wife, and there are archeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the seventh century B.C.E. (See 2 Kings 23:15)"


Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 06:44, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
However, there is no ability to edit that page, presumably because of sensitivity concerns. How do I raise this issue and/or make this suggestion? Thanks for your attention, ] 03:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


== ] of ] ==
: The page is semi-protected, meaning that new users or anonymous users cannot edit it. We semi-protect pages when there is a lot of vandalism... I have unprotected it, so you should be able to edit it. Happy editing! ] <small>]</small> 05:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
== Berlin semi-protection ==
<blockquote>'''Orphaned file with no obvious value in transferring to Commons'''</blockquote>


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
Hi Jossi -- thanks for stepping in on the Berlin stuff. Per the semi-protection though there's no evidence (or as I've seen it reason to believe) that Lear 21 was the one that vandalized the page anonymously. I just reverted his pre-block edit along with a vandalism edit. The vandalism was just the garden variety junk. In my opinion, unless there are reverts to the contested content during Lear's blocked time there's no reason for the semi-protection. Cheers! ] 17:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
== Unblock Lear 21 ==
Your actions leading to the block of ] are unjustified and baseless. There has been NO vandalism. There has been NO violating of 3RR Rule. There has been neither disruptive editing, apart
from reinserting monthlong sourced and established content at the Berlin article. The revert has also been credibly reasoned. There has been nothing done, justifiyng any
blocking and neither an "out of proportion" one week block. Unprotect this account as soon as possible
or a procedure of abusive administrator behaviour will be initiated. Lear 21 <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: You can use the template in your talk page to contest the block. In the meantime I am blocking this IP as well. ] <small>]</small> 00:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 06:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
: I'm all for fairness, but for all practical purposes the 3RR rule was broken. You reverted three times within 26 hours, plus there was one identical revert, referencing the same argument, from an anonymous Berlin-based IP address in that time span. ] 21:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


== ] of ] ==
== Gene chip analysis ==
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
While I in no way object to your speedy deletion of ], could I just ask what your comment of "" means? Cheers --] 07:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
<blockquote>'''Orphaned file with no obvious value in transferring to Commons'''</blockquote>
: Spelling mistake, I mean WP:OR ] <small>]</small> 14:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


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== TNE ==


== ] of ] ==
Thanks for protecting the TNE page. Such an action was long overdue. Now that there's some protection from the constant vandalism by unregistered users, I'll actually work to improve the article and add some specific sources that I have access to. ] 13:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
== Sarcasm ==
<blockquote>'''Redundant to the individual images on the Rider-Waite tarot deck'''</blockquote>


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
Jossi, I was tempted to curtly tell you that you are welcome to take your fascinating sarcasm elsewhere. Upon reflection, I realized that the most effective response to sarcasm is probably not more sarcasm. Instead I'll just share with you two things: first, my experience has been that sarcasm is a ''uniformly'' bad idea: someone almost always misunderstands me, and someone else will almost certainly be offended, no matter how mild I think I've been about it In the ensuing emotional reaction, any valid point I might have had is usually ignored. I have had so many negative experiences as a result of my own intensely sarcastic nature, both here at WP and in "real life"; I strongly recommend that editors avoid sarcasm altogether.


You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
And secondly, your tiny sarcasm was completely inappropriate, and annoyed the crap out of me. I feel you have not given me the simple respect of actually reading my comments, which were in fact directly related to Alice Bailey's text, which is (I believe) somewhat pertinent to the article. I believe Kwork is the only one debating Zionism itself with no connection to the article. Had you not been sarcastic, I might have responded ]. ] 17:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 06:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
: Ooops...! It was not my intention to be sarcastic. I was trying to encourage users to take their off-topic discussions elsewhere. I guess that sometimes I am not aware of the unintended perceptions that my comments can incite on others. Will surely pay more attention in in the future. ] <small>]</small> 17:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


== ] of ] ==
== A serious question ==
]


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
The block on Kwork was justified I truly do believe that, but the fact that you did it is very troublesome indeed.
<blockquote>'''Orphaned file with no obvious value in transferring to Commons'''</blockquote>
You told us that the fact that you edited the Bailey article exempted you from acting as an admin pursuant to that article.


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Does this mean that you know longer intend to edit that article or influence its contents. ? : Danny : ] 21:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


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: His block was unrelated to a content dispute in that article, as in fact, I agree with many of the points he made. I did what had to be done to afford a basic need for civility on that talk page. He can contest the block if he wants to, and you can do the same by posting a request at ]. And no, I do not intend to edit that article any longer. ] <small>]</small> 21:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 06:53, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Jossi.
== "Aspirare" listed at ] ==
]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect ]. The discussion will occur at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> (] &#183; ]) ''']''' 22:56, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


== ]: Contentious topic designation removed ==
I think Kwork was in the wrong. I also urge you to consider asking for Jpgordons advice on this one, unless you have done so already.


Hello {{u|Jossi}},
I would have blocked him if I was and admin, But I would not have erased his comments until after he was unblocked.


As a very late update to the ] arbitration case, the ] designation, previously "discretionary sanctions", originally "article probation", has been removed following a successful
You did good Jossi.


Any actions previously taken in accordance with the contentious topic designation remain in force and are governed by the ].
] 22:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


This notification may be mostly unnecessary, but as you had been a party to the original case, I thought you might be interested in hearing that after about 15 years, this remnant has been removed. Until today, it was listed at {{slink|Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions#Arbitration_Committee-authorised_sanctions}}.
== Thanks ==


Best regards,<br>] (]) 19:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for being so quick to revert the vandalism on my userpage. ] 03:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:37, 10 October 2023

This account has been blocked indefinitely because CheckUser evidence confirms that the account's owner has abusively used multiple accounts.

(Account information: block log · CentralAuth · suspected sockpuppets · confirmed sockpuppets · sockpuppet investigations casepage)

There are at least two kinds of games.

One could be called finite, the other infinite.

The finite game is played for the purpose of winning, and thereby ending the game.

An infinite game for the purpose of continuing the play ... and bringing as many persons as possible into the play.

Finite players play within boundaries; infinite players play with boundaries.

Finite players are serious; infinite games are playful.

Finite players try to control the game, predict everything that will happen, and set the outcome in advance. They are serious and determined about getting that outcome. They try to fix the future based on the past.

Infinite players enjoy being surprised. Continuously running into something they didn't know will ensure that the game will go on. The meaning of the past changes depending on what happens in the future.

All games are inherently voluntary. There might be consequences of not playing, but there is always a choice required. There are certain rules and boundaries that appear to be externally defined, and you choose to follow them or not. If you stop following them you aren't playing the game any longer.

There is no rule that says you have to follow the rules, and there is no rule that says you have to play. If you have to play, you cannot really play.

All finite games have rules. If you follow the rules you are playing the game. If you don't follow the rules you aren't playing.

Infinite players play with rules and boundaries. They aren't taking them serious, and they can never be trapped by them, because they use rules and boundaries as part of their playing.

Players can do what they do seriously, because they must do it, because they must survive to the end, and are afraid of the consequences of not playing or not winning. Or, players can do everything they do playfully, always knowing they have a choice, having no need to survive the way they are, allowing every element of the play to transform them, taking pleasure in every surprise they meet. Those are the differences between finite and infinite players.

You can play finite games within an infinite game. You can not play infinite games within a finite game.

There is only but one infinite game.

Paraphrased from James P. Carse, Finite and infinite games: A Vision of Life in Play and Possibility

≈ jossi ≈ (talk)



Very sorry to see you leave, Jossi. I fully respect your decision to retire, but do know that I would be very happy to see you make a return to actively contributing at some point.
My very best, AGK 10:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

As would I. I disagreed with some of your decisions, but think you have much to offer the community and the Project. Don't let some sour grapes disinterest you - make grappa! :) - Arcayne () 15:30, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry to see you leave the project; you were a valuable asset to this community. Best wishes, seicer | talk | contribs 00:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Your actions were benevolent, reasoned and always truthful, in my mind; it is a surprise that you departed so suddenly. It is a real shame you have left. Good luck. Caulde 00:19, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
(As above, please move or remove this message at your discretion if you don't want it here.) I can't say we always got along, but I certainly always was glad to see you in a difficult situation. Best of luck to you, wherever that great infinite game takes you. Seraphimblade 03:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I am very sorry to see you go. When I was a newbie you were extraordinarily kind and patient with me and I greatly appreciated it. Best of luck to you! Renee (talk) 13:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm a bit thick sometimes. So, hum, real life is the only infinite game, wikipedia is a finite game. Since wikipedia is a finite game, at some point in wikipedia's game you stop running into surprising stuff that you didn't know about, and players wind up being being trapped by wikipedia's rules, being afraid of consequences of not "winning", etc. Text between lines: wikipedia ougth to be an infinite game, but it's not. Did I get it right? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Close, Enric ...
Look at it this way, collaboration is the antithesis of winning. Players in a game can be focused in terminating the game by winning or by declaring once side as the loser. In collaboration, all players are focused intently in keeping the game going.
Misplaced Pages is indeed a finite game, but has embodied many traits of an infinite game. For example , there is WP:IAR: If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it., i.e. if a rule prevents the game to continue, ignore it. The challenge is, thought, as Misplaced Pages grows in importance, authority, and reach, it's basic principles of collegial collaboration, civility, anybody can edit, free content, and neutral point of view (WP:FIVE) are being challenged by more traditional forces, which I would call routinization. This routinization is visible in the quite large body of policies, guidelines, manuals of style, etc. that has developed as well as the processes developed to keep the game going: Arbitration, Administrators, Page protection, Bans, Blocks etc. (Note that I am not judging that to be good or bad, simply stating a fact: after all I was quite involved in these aspects myself. )
As soon as these routinizing aspects begin consuming too many resources — and in WP the only resource is volunteer time (besides $$ needed to run the servers and keep a small staff) — the purpose of the game begin to be lost: Rather than build new articles, improve new ones, expand the number of players, encourage participation, etc. the most experienced people and those with most time, tend to spend their wiki-time in areas that limit play. I am not arguing that these tasks are not needed; they are. Only that over time, the fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages get lost or constrained in such a manner that it impinges in these principles and may eventually lead to terminating play. As an editor that invested quite a bit of time in that area, I am aware of the dichotomy it presents and the challenges in bridging it.
Another challenge is when players try to bring about other games into Misplaced Pages than Wikpiedia's own. Players try and transpose the games they have chosen to play IRL, into this project. That is why we have WP:BATTLE, the other side of WP:WRW. Just witness the ongoing political, scientific, religious, and other such disputes that have been developing over the last years (check WP:RFAR/C for a good sample), and the many efforts by the community to overcome these challenges. A notable point is that in almost every arbitration case (with some notable exceptions), the result is the imposition of restrictions to participate fully in the game ... "in order to continue playing, you are now restricted from playing", an obvious contradiction.
So, as long as there are editors that will do everything possible to keep the game going, and do that with such grace and diligence that does not result in restricting play, Misplaced Pages may have a chance. But if these editors that are intent in winning the game at the expense of keeping the playing going, become those that steer the project forward, then it may not. My opinion is that Misplaced Pages is at that cross-road. The new Arbitration committee, which IMO has more diversity than ever before, as well as having people that I admire for the brilliance of their minds and the generosity of their hearts, may be the ones tasked to see this through, that is if they managed to bring the community around to support their efforts when exploring these challenges.
Per Carse, it boils down to choice If you have to play, you cannot play. It seems that those that want to win the game, are usually those that feel compelled to play it, and are those that play it too seriously for their own good. And those that want to keep the game going are usually those that edit with a smile on they face, enjoying the game, bringing new players to the game and expanding the possibility of play.
So, my decision to retire is based on that choice: because I can. I said this without judgment of other players: I wish them wisdom in their own choices, playfulness in their play, and my best.
Happy New Year,
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm happy that you are not retiring because of bitterness. Myself, I'm staying if only because I can't resist seeing all the process first hand , you know, watching train crashes in slow motion :) I don't understand everything that you say, but I'll take your comments and try to be more playful on my editing. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Although I'm only seeing your edits now after you have left I'm also sorry to see you go and hope you reconsider in due course. You may be happy to know that I'm making some progress with COI reform (one small step at a time), for example WP:NPA and WP:WHYCOI. Perhaps you would consider helping out with such things, if not involving yourself in editing as such. In particular you and I share the view of volunteer time being a precious resource while 1's and 0's are a commodity, and I hope to "leverage" my contributions by trimming back some of the areas where time is wasted (e.g. 50k AfDs over 5k articles). Would you consider helping me write an essay on "respect for human time" or similar? -- samj in 13:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Seasons Greetings

Wishing you the very best for the season. Guettarda (talk) 00:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Vaya con Dios

Hasta luego, amigo. If I may be so bold, I hope that you made your decision to leave for the sake of your own spiritual health and not in the hopes of influencing Misplaced Pages. Because even a token participation here on your part would be infinitely more helpful than leaving. But if you left because you felt that continued participation was not in the best interests of your continued spiritual growth then I am with you, brother. I will hang in, though. Best Holiday Wishes. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

--Take care dude, don't neglect your video games and remember to have crazy fun on the weekends. tilda tilda tilda tilda —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mortello (talkcontribs) 07:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Admin templates on userpage

Hello, I have removed your admin templates on your userpage as you are not an administrator. I noticed your retirement message - perhaps you just forgot to remove them before leaving. Any queries, please don't hesitate to contact me. :) neuro 00:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

An olive branch

Peace
Best wishes for the New Year.   Will Beback  talk  18:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Best wishes

I'm sorry to see that your positive experiences with Misplaced Pages were overtaken by negative ones. I too am very sorry to see you leave. Perhaps time away will allow you to come to terms with how things turned out. If that itch to contribute to Misplaced Pages ever comes back, a good way to regain your joy of contribution might be to look over your earliest contributions and follow along the path to where you realized that this is where you wanted to be. Best wishes. -- Suntag 16:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

An article you created maybe deleted soon: Tools which can help you

The article you created: Digital artist may be deleted from Misplaced Pages.

There is an ongoing debate about whether your article should be deleted here:

The faster you respond, the better chance the article you created can be saved.

Finding sources which mention the topic of your article is the very best way to avoid an article being deleted {{Findsources3}}:

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If your page is deleted, you still have many options available. Good luck! travb (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Tao-te-ching005.png)

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FfD to delete Time cover image

Hi. As you were the original uploader of Image:Time_evolution_wars.jpg, used in Intelligent design, I thought you might like to know a proceeding was brought to remove the Time image by outright deletion from the wiki . It's at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2009_February_12#Time_evolution_wars.jpg . If you are at all interested in the issue, it would be reasonable to post a "keep" or a "delete" at that page. ... Kenosis (talk) 14:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


Sorry to see you go and an appology

Dear Jossi,

So sad to see you go! Whenever I would see your name enter a discussion, over and over again, I relaxed, here was a wikipedian with knowledge and fairness!


I am also writing to apologize. When I read the register article, I accepted it as mostly accurate, without taking the time to really look at the facts and participated in the Prem Rawat arbitration, casting my voice against you.

I truly and deeply appologize for not trusting my experience with you and casting my opinion with a questionable source, and not taking the time to really investigate and form my own opinion.


Hope wiki-retirement is treating you well.

Warmly, Hohohahaha (talk) 16:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


File copyright problem with File:Vertical tabs sample.png

File Copyright problem
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RFAR/Prem Rawat 2

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. Momento (talk · contribs) and Rumiton (talk · contribs) are banned from editing Prem Rawat or any related article (including talk pages) for one year. The Prem Rawat article and all related articles are subject to revert limitations for one year. Several users are admonished for their conduct in the case and all parties and other interested editors are encouraged to restart mediation in relation to Prem Rawat. Also, should Jossi (talk · contribs) return to Misplaced Pages to edit Prem Rawat articles, he is required to contact the Arbitration Committee beforehand. These remedies are in addition to, and do not replace, the remedies passed in RFAR/Prem Rawat.

For the Committee. MBisanz 02:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Discuss this


Proposed deletion of Unipaz

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Unipaz, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process because of the following concern:

Notability-tagged since December, numerous unsourced statements

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Misplaced Pages is not" and Misplaced Pages's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

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Millennium '73

Millennium '73, to which you made significant contributions, has now been promoted to WP:Featured article status. Thank you for your help.   Will Beback  talk  20:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following editors are subjected to bans/topic-bans/restrictions as listed below :

#Editors marked in * have since contacted the Committee.

Any editor who is subject to remedies in this proceeding, or who wishes to edit from an open proxy, is restricted to a single current or future account to edit Scientology-related topics and may not contribute to the topic as anonymous IP editors. Editors topic banned by remedies in this proceeding are prohibited (i) from editing articles related to Scientology or Scientologists, broadly defined, as well as the respective article talk pages and (ii) from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles. Editors topic banned above may apply to have the topic ban lifted after demonstrating their commitment to the goals of Misplaced Pages and their ability to work constructively with other editors. Applications will be considered no earlier than six months after the close of this case, and additional reviews will be done no more frequently than every six months thereafter.

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, ban any editor from editing within the Scientology topic. Prior to topic banning the editor, the administrator will leave a message on the editor's talk page, linking to this paragraph, warning the editor that a topic ban is contemplated and outlining the behaviours for which it is contemplated. If the editor fails to heed the warning, the editor may be topic banned, initially, for three months, then with additional topic bans increasing in duration to a maximum of one year. Any editor who, in the judgment of an uninvolved administrator, is (i) focused primarily on Scientology or Scientologists and (ii) clearly engaged in promoting an identifiable agenda may be topic-banned for up to one year.

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- For the Arbitration Committee, Mailer Diablo 01:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Protect free speech

FYI,

-- Brangifer (talk) 08:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.

Your work will last for long time. Misplaced Pages:Levels_of_competence is very simple, yet one of the more beautiful pages about the project. +sj+ 05:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Condmilk.jpg

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Documentation of sockpuppet investigation - where's the evidence?

Considering that this user retired back near the end of 2008 and never made any contributions after that, why is he/she indefinitely blocked as a "sockpuppet master"? Was the user allowed to defend itself? Why was no documentation provided? Note that I've opened up a thread about this here: Misplaced Pages talk:CheckUser#Documenting sockpuppet investigations.2C particularly conclusive cases. II | (t - c) 19:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I replied at that thread. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
The use of an alternate account was an evasion of the remedy in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2#Jossi required to resolve disputes before returning to this area, and also had the effect of evading scrutiny, and so it was a violation of WP:SOCK.   Will Beback  talk  02:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
No evidence in that case was presented regarding lingering disputes. How far do we have to dig to get a straight answer here? Does this basically amount to "before you come back, check in with us so we can slap you on the wrist"? Jossi is getting banned for that kind of process wankery? You guys are better than this. -- Ned Scott 12:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
If you look at Pergamino's edits, you'll see that he was intentially deceptive about his knowledge of Misplaced Pages and his favorite topic. Further, Pergamino started editing while there was an active RFAR in which Jossi would have been a party if he hadn't "retired". So the use of the sock was not only deceptive, but it served to evade ArbCom sanctions. Regarding the sock investigation, checkuser results are never released, so that's nothing unusual. The ArbCom itself made the call, not just a functionary or admin. See the notes at User talk:Pergamino. There's also evidence of past sockpppet use.   Will Beback  talk  18:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
If Jossi was thrown in as a party of the second arb case it would be very unlikely that any scansions on him would have been this severe. It's so easy to piss on good editors of the past and make them out to be villains, what with their deceptive and evil intentions. If I were to just speculate I would say that Jossi did this to avoid all the BS and get back to improving actual articles. It wouldn't excuse the violation of the arbcom case, sure, but it puts things into perspective. It sickens me to see editors treated like this. The taboo of the sockpuppet seems to trump all rational logic. -- Ned Scott 05:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Why would you speculate? All of Misplaced Pages administration is against Jossi now? He broke the rules, he got spanked like he knew he would if he got caught, where's the issue here? -- Maelefique 05:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
It's pretty startling that even now nobody can point me to a sockpuppet investigation page where a Checkuser publicly confirmed the evidence of sockpuppeting, with some diffs. Can you point me to the page? Why are you so against public evidence? II | (t - c) 05:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Checkuser investigations are routinely done without posting an investigation, and in many SPIs the only feedback is "confirmed". I'm not sure what other evidence is required beyond checkuser, but I assume the ArbCom could be contacted directly with legitimate inquiries.   Will Beback  talk  05:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
In User talk:Pergamino, the first comment is by User:Rlevse saying that he had checkusered the user, and then the Arcom clerk User:Tiptoety said that he had also seen some of the evidence and that he confirmed the basis for the block.
Also notice that the other sock User:Sepho said that he had communicated the identity of his main to an arbcom member, and that 8 hours later Arbcom member User:Stephen Bain (bainer) declined his unblock request saying that it was not a legitimate usage of an alternative account. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I suggest contacting them about what evidence they found and how convincing it was and why. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems likely that Jossi was using those sockpuppets inappropriately. But the problem is that the standard practice on Misplaced Pages is to use evidence which is not collected and organized systematicallym and sockpuppet ban templates which do not point to the evidence, so it's a huge hassle to find out when the sockpuppet verdict was a mistake, and only insiders know what happened. That's not sustainable, and it is a very cabal-like practice. II | (t - c) 17:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Simply put: No. Checkuser evidence is private to protect the privacy of everyone involved. Even if there were an SPI page opened, you'd have no more information than a {{confirmed}} template on the page and a note acknowledging that the accounts were blocked: exactly what is available here. — Coren  10:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Your underlying premise is that diffs and supporting evidence beyond a "Checkuser" confirmation are unnecessary, or that the public doesn't need to see this supporting evidence. Simply put: that's absurd. Plenty of people edit from the same locations in the same topics. Sockpuppet case investigation pages present the evidence (diffs), which are otherwise difficult to track down. They should be opened in any major case just to allow people to look for the evidence themselves. Also, the argument that this is to defend the accused's privacy seems weak. Sockpuppet investigation case pages do not violate the accused's privacy. The accused always benefits from some due process and transparency, as do we all. II | (t - c) 16:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
If you have a problem with the policy itself, then I would suggest that the correct place to have this discussion would be here or here. It would seem inappropriate to have this discussion on any user's talkpage unless there is something special about this user's ban. Are you posting on every user talkpage of confirmed sockpuppeteers? It would seem you haven't even attempted to discuss your views on checkuser confirmation on any policy pages yet, though that is the logical place to start. Also, you're assuming we only have the checkuser results to rely on, even though on the Sockpuppet investigations page we have this, "CheckUser does not solve cases. It provides additional evidence of a technical nature that can be considered along with behavioral evidence, and may help clarify whether misuse has taken place". I would think that if you really wanted to improve this process you would do so from the policy pages where the involved admins already are, and not rely on whoever wanders past this page. -- Maelefique 18:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Did you miss the in the opening paragraph (Misplaced Pages talk:CheckUser#Documenting sockpuppet investigations.2C particularly conclusive cases)? I would prefer to discuss this in the policy area, but there were statements here that I wanted to respond to. See Misplaced Pages talk:CheckUser#Ground rules. II | (t - c) 19:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
So we should cut and paste this *entire* discussion to the appropriate talk pages instead of cluttering up userspace, is that what you're recommending? Seems entirely appropriate to me too. Would you think Sock puppetry or Sockpuppet investigations is best? Or possibly to one, with a note on the other linking it? -- Maelefique 19:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't know about copy/pasting...the sockpuppet investigations (SPI) page is, I guess, a subpage of the sockpuppetry policy page, but the SPI page probably has a more traffic and therefore more people watching it. Right now it's sort of in Checkuser. I don't know how controversial this is. I dropped a notice over at WT:SPI. II | (t - c) 19:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the basis for this dispute is. Is there any doubt that Pergamino was a sock of Jossi's? Has Jossi denied it or complained about the process? I don't believe so. I think his silence is an implicit agreement with the finding.   Will Beback  talk  20:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
My impression is that retired users don't check their Misplaced Pages watchlist every couple days, or sometimes even at all. People move on with their lives. In the mess above there's some decent evidence that Pergamino was Jossi, but there's still no link to the initial request for Checkuser, what the basis was, ect. The link you provided (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2#Jossi required to resolve disputes before returning to this area) had zero evidence - it was circular (Jossi is banned because ). The most convincing evidence is from Enric, who said that one of the socks basically admitted to being Jossi in an email. II | (t - c) 21:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Note that mail was sent July last year and has nothing to do with more recent events. JN466 23:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

CU evidence is private. Arbcom gets reports/requests/etc of all sorts everyday. If a CU is justified, an CU check will be run, as was the case here. These are called 'private CUs' and happen all the time. The requirement for a CU is that the evidence presented meet CU requirements. An SPI report may or may not be filed. It is place to collect most sock reports. Arbcom handles a lot of private matters and we can not, nor do we need to, file an SPI when we get a report/request. In this Jossi case at hand, we hand on wiki evidence, private correspondence, and a CU check. All together a very solid case for socking was shown, plus Jossi did not notify us as required by the arbcom ruling. I can post the onwiki public evidence here if someone is interested. — RlevseTalk20:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think this is better discussed over at the thread I started or its subthread (Misplaced Pages talk:CheckUser#Ground rules). The question is - why do these requests need to be private? Are there any rules which "the community" can read governing how these private discussions go? And why can't ArbCom file an SPI? But please don't answer these questions here. II | (t - c) 21:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

2012 Election Need Your Feedback

I noticed you were a regular editor on the 2008 election page. Myself and other editors are odds on some edits we are trying to make to the page. Since you have already been involved in probably similar discussion, we would greatly appreciate hearing your feedback on the 2012 election discussion page under the Republicans and Ruled Out discussions http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:United_States_presidential_election,_2012#Republicans.3F

David1982m (talkcontribs) 20:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC).

Unreferenced BLPs

Hello Jossi! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 14 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

  1. Ajahn Jayasaro - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 22:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)


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Sockpuppetry case

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Fair use rationale for File:Casabella 471.jpg

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I copied the Fair Use Rationale from File:Lacasabella.jpg. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Concierto aranjuez .jpg

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MfD nomination of Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Thanksfrom

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Fair use rationale for File:Marzeah_Papyrus-hi.jpg

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Speedy deletion nomination of Advaitanand Ji

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File:Kaltura Logo.png listed for deletion

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File:Copperplate Gothic 29BC.png listed for deletion

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Nomination for deletion of Template:List fact

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Article notability notification

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An RfC that you may be interested in...

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Proposed deletion of Rob Preece

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File:Skeleton diag.png listed for discussion

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Protection msg

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MfD nomination of User talk:163.150.225.201/Archive 1

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Proposed deletion of File:Golden section page.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Frutiger sample.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Gutemberg canon.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Van de Graaf.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Van de Graaf.svg

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Proposed deletion of File:Bodoni book.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Rider-Waite-Smith deck.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Digital painting of flower (monotone blue).jpg

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"Aspirare" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Aspirare. The discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 2#Aspirare until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. (t · c) buidhe 22:56, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat: Contentious topic designation removed

Hello Jossi,

As a very late update to the Prem Rawat arbitration case, the contentious topic designation, previously "discretionary sanctions", originally "article probation", has been removed following a successful request for amendment.

Any actions previously taken in accordance with the contentious topic designation remain in force and are governed by the contentious topics procedure.

This notification may be mostly unnecessary, but as you had been a party to the original case, I thought you might be interested in hearing that after about 15 years, this remnant has been removed. Until today, it was listed at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions § Arbitration Committee-authorised sanctions.

Best regards,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

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