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| I agree. I've seen national news stories about their rallies in Portland, but this article sheds almost no light on their actual views. I get that they clash with Antifa (who are also often labeled extreme) and a lot of observers call them "far-right", but not much here to clarify what they actually stand for. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | I agree. I've seen national news stories about their rallies in Portland, but this article sheds almost no light on their actual views. I get that they clash with Antifa (who are also often labeled extreme) and a lot of observers call them "far-right", but not much here to clarify what they actually stand for. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | ||
| :We report what reliable sources say. Reliable sources say that Patriot Prayer is "far-right", so we report that. We don't analyze their ideology and make an independent assessment of where it falls on the political spectrum. That is ] and is specifically prohibited. ] (]) 22:35, 7 May 2020 (UTC) | :We report what reliable sources say. Reliable sources say that Patriot Prayer is "far-right", so we report that. We don't analyze their ideology and make an independent assessment of where it falls on the political spectrum. That is ] and is specifically prohibited. ] (]) 22:35, 7 May 2020 (UTC) | ||
| ::If "reliable sources" accuse them of being far right without evidence, it would seem they aren't very reliable ] (]) 15:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812 | |||
| ::How does Misplaced Pages deal with bias in said reliable sources? There seems to be no evidence except what journalists allege. Certainly it's possible this is the case here, right? With these standards, it seems impossible to prove a negative if one reliable source mistakenly says it's "far-right" while others characterize it as "right-wing," "conservative," or "libertarian" without using the term "far right." Part of the reason I use Misplaced Pages for a source of information is that it tends to remove biases more than journalists do. ] (]) 04:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC) | ::How does Misplaced Pages deal with bias in said reliable sources? There seems to be no evidence except what journalists allege. Certainly it's possible this is the case here, right? With these standards, it seems impossible to prove a negative if one reliable source mistakenly says it's "far-right" while others characterize it as "right-wing," "conservative," or "libertarian" without using the term "far right." Part of the reason I use Misplaced Pages for a source of information is that it tends to remove biases more than journalists do. ] (]) 04:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC) | ||
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| ::: There is still no support offered for their views being right-wing, far right (how exactly is that defined anyway?) or what ever. All the article contains is a lot of 'opinions', 'circumstantial stuff' and innuendo. There should be some more thorough information available or one should simply leave out the adjectives. ] (]) 20:46, 5 September 2020 (UTC) | ::: There is still no support offered for their views being right-wing, far right (how exactly is that defined anyway?) or what ever. All the article contains is a lot of 'opinions', 'circumstantial stuff' and innuendo. There should be some more thorough information available or one should simply leave out the adjectives. ] (]) 20:46, 5 September 2020 (UTC) | ||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2020 == | |||
| {{atop|Nothing to do here.--] (]) 19:30, 1 September 2020 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{edit semi-protected|Patriot Prayer|answered=yes}} | |||
| Update, "On August 29, 2020, a man wearing a hat and t-shirt with the Patriot Prayer emblem was fatally shot in downtown Portland, in the hours following a caravan rally in support of Trump," with the newest information. | |||
| Example: On August 29, 2020, a man wearing a hat and t-shirt with the Patriot Prayer emblem was fatally shot in downtown Portland, in the hours following a caravan rally in support of Trump. The shooting suspect, Michael Forest Reinoehl, has said they are, "100% Antifa." In multiple videos, someone can be heard saying, "We've got one right here! We've got a couple of them right here," followed by the shooting suspect firing at and hitting Jay Bishop. ] (]) 16:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :{{notdone}} Provide a reliable source that supports this and not "some youtube videos say this".--] (]) 16:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Where is the Citation proving that this group is "Far-Right" which is already harshly defined by Wiki? I'm creating an "alternative" page for "Patriot Prayer" since this one is "protected against vandalism." What cowardly "bunk." ] (]) 15:41, 1 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :It's in citation no. 1 beside "far-right." ] (]) 16:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::And I just replied the same thing above. Why are you asking the same question several times, ]? Are you determined to waste as many editors' time as possible? ] | ] 16:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC). | |||
| :::Oh, I see you actually posted it ''five'' times, and that is the sum of your contributions to Misplaced Pages. Blocked for disruptive editing. ] | ] 16:07, 1 September 2020 (UTC). | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == August 29 2020 shooting == | |||
| I've gone through several sources and they say the victim was "a supporter of" as well as Joey's personal friend, but just wearing a hat is like wearing a collegial apparel. I find the inclusion into this page until reliable sources show membership or attendance on behalf of the group undue. ] (]) 16:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :A shooting is a much bigger deal than marching, flag waving and public brawls. The sudden influx of ] accounts discovering this article for the first time makes this clear. If someone were killed for wearing collegial apparel, that would also be highly due and deserve a mention on the Misplaced Pages page of the college (regardless of whether or not the victim was a member). ] (]) 22:07, 3 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Sources do indeed call him a supporter and friend, what else do you want? We say what sources say. We’re not saying “he attended weekly meetings at the sooper sekrit hideout”. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:50, 3 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not sure it's worth including here right now, though. Getting shot is not, by any real stretch of the imagination, a "Patriot Prayer" activity; the section shouldn't just become "collection of stuff that happened involving people who are part of Patriot Prayer." All the other stuff in the section either involves a group of people acting under the Patriot Prayer name, or things done / directed by the group's leader under its name. --] (]) 01:23, 6 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::: That's my thinking. I think it's best to keep it off unless/until a sufficiently strong connection is made. Similarly, if someone did something in a Ducks cap, or even while a UO student, it would be undue to put it on the UO article. However, if reliable reported news coverage says if a student athlete traveling for the team did something in a host town while they're there for an away game, then, that is different. Currently, the verifiable connection is that the shooter was a PP supporter wearing a PP hat (I don't know how hard they are to come by..) whose friends with Joey. No reported account that he was there representing the group or together with the group. ] (]) 03:05, 6 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Right Wing == | |||
| Many reports from reliable sources such as the following from BBC News https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53962363 describe the group as "Right-Wing" rather than "Far-Right". This range of descriptions should be included or the article is effectively selectively cherry picking adjectives from sources while claiming NPOV. ] (]) 11:37, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :All "far right" groups are ''also'' "right wing" so that doesn't mean what you think it means. You should learn what "NPOV" actually means.--] (]) 15:02, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's pure interpretation and irrelevant reasoning. While a Far Right party is by definition Right Wing, a Right Wing party is not necessarily Far Right by any means. If the original author from the BBC desired to call them Far-Right instead of Right-Wing they were free to do so and its not wikipedia's place to ignore non-interchangeable descriptions used by reliable sources. ] (]) 15:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::That is a cool story, bro.--] (]) 15:57, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Very mature. ] (]) 16:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I don't know how representative this example is but the IP makes a valid point. If a preponderance of sources use the term "right wing" and only a minority of them feel comfortable strengthening this to "far right", the amount of weight we give to each term in the wiki article must be adjusted accordingly. ] (]) 16:25, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It is abundantly evident that Misplaced Pages has no desire to document facts. Some left-wing news outlets will declare anything slightly to the right of them as "far right" and Misplaced Pages editors accept those claims as gospel, even in the face of a mountain of evidence (including a video where the founder provides a background on the group) to the contrary. They are apparently unaware of their own biases. Above, I called for the article to be re-written because it is full of discrepancies, even within the article itself. My suggestion was summarily dismissed and the discussion blocked for edits. This isn't the first time I've come across such articles on Misplaced Pages and it's this intolerant, biased nonsense that has prompted me to just stop donating to Misplaced Pages altogether. The platform has been taken over to push a political agenda, it seems. For certain, there is no desire to publish the truth. While I'm still no expert on Patriot Prayer, what they are NOT is a "far right" group, but you cannot persuade Misplaced Pages editors otherwise. I'm not sure how they justify calling a Japanese-American who describes himself as a libertarian and calls for people to join his group from both the left and the right as "far right". I simply cannot wrap my head around such stupidity.] (]) 18:49, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| : If you look in the talk archives, I believe this discussion has gone around numerous times. ] (]) 19:19, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: Your political POV becomes ever more apparent for you to offer an unbiased opinion on this and any related article. ] (]) 20:21, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I agree this is blatant misinformation, for a group to be labelled far-right, something about their policies should be associated with far-right ideologies. As a reminder, literally Nazis are far-right, not being a just being a Christian, and supporting Trump.--] (]) 21:17, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| : Reliable sources sometimes use the expression right-wing to describe the far right, but the meaning is always clear in context. If context is lacking, then we could be referring to a group of Mitt Romney Republicans. But Mitt Romney Republicans don't put on baseball caps and attack Black Lives Matters protesters. Instead they go to country clubs where they won't see either BLM or Patriot Prayer members. ] (]) 19:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| : Sources that are considered ] in the Misplaced Pages realm throw around both far right and right. After seeing the long discussion on this in archives, I don't really care enough to get into it. Those of you who feel strongly about it can open up a formal Request for Comment or take this to neutral point of view noticeboard if they want to. ] (]) 23:19, 4 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: There are reliable sources that describe Joe Biden and Joe Stalin as left-wing, although none that would say they have similar ideologies. Obviously the terms left and right can be stretched to cover a lot of territory. Used on their own, without context isn't very helpful. ] (]) 00:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: My understanding of this disagreement over the magnitude of "right" ness that keeps coming up is over the general labeling. Even Fox News characterizes it as far-right here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/antifa-far-right-fight-portland-bar-protests but it could be that they're not consistent with it. I stopped caring. ] (]) 04:30, 5 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Additional coverage that may be useful == | == Additional coverage that may be useful == | ||
| Line 77: | Line 40: | ||
| *Aug 30, 2020 CBC, Portland mayor, Trump trade blame after fatal protest shooting https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/portland-protest-shooting-1.5705390 | *Aug 30, 2020 CBC, Portland mayor, Trump trade blame after fatal protest shooting https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/portland-protest-shooting-1.5705390 | ||
| <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 00:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small><!-- --> | <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 00:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small><!-- --> | ||
| == Killings of Aaron Danielson and Michael Reinoehl == | |||
| ] ] (]) 23:01, 25 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2020 == | == Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2020 == | ||
| Line 94: | Line 53: | ||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2021 == | == Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2021 == | ||
| {{edit semi-protected|Patriot Prayer|answered= |
{{edit semi-protected|Patriot Prayer|answered=yes}} | ||
| Re the first paragraph's sentence "The group has organized rallies in support of Donald Trump" is ambiguous. Perhaps it should be "in support of the Trump 2020 presidential campaign" or "in support of then President Donald Trump" or something else that explains why a group would support an individual, rather than a cause or a campaign. It might have made perfect sense when the sentence was first written, but it doesn't make sense now from a fresh perspective. Someone with more familiarity with the subject matter than me should be able to correctly clarify the sentence. ] (]) 05:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC) | Re the first paragraph's sentence "The group has organized rallies in support of Donald Trump" is ambiguous. Perhaps it should be "in support of the Trump 2020 presidential campaign" or "in support of then President Donald Trump" or something else that explains why a group would support an individual, rather than a cause or a campaign. It might have made perfect sense when the sentence was first written, but it doesn't make sense now from a fresh perspective. Someone with more familiarity with the subject matter than me should be able to correctly clarify the sentence. ] (]) 05:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC) | ||
| : {{done}}. Added "former President". ] <small>(])</small> 07:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Additional sources == | |||
| *'']'' in September 8, 2020: ] (]) 21:13, 10 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
| *'']'' September 4, 2020 https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/04/facebook-patriot-prayer-joey-gibson/ ] (]) 00:05, 23 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
| * '']'' August 30, 2020 What Is Patriot Prayer? https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/what-is-patriot-prayer-far-right-group-confrontations-portland.html ] (]) 00:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Nightmare Elk == | |||
| Not sure if the group's involvement in the (removal of the) ] is worth mentioning? More sources on the article's talk page. ---] <sub>(])</sub> 04:13, 26 September 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Applying qualifiers without source. == | |||
| I think it's pretty clear calling groups like Patriot Prayer and Proud Boys terms like "white nationalists" is blatantly not true on its own (Proud Boys isn't even run by anyone who is white right now). And considering there are no articles being sourced that support the statement that Proud Boys is a white nationalist or far-right group, there is no reason for this to be included in the opening paragraph. | |||
| As of this writing I've had Jorm revert my edit multiple times and is claiming I'm the one doing disruptive edits for removing unsubstantiated claims. Until there is any source (I'm well aware that Misplaced Pages is about sourcing and not "truth," whether the qualifiers are true or not), there is no reason to include blatantly inflammatory descriptions of these groups. | |||
| I'll revert my edit back and request a source either be provided or explain why these terms should be included. I'm hoping we can be more civil with this and not continue to cause issues in cleaning up the article. ] (]) 23:01, 7 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :What you think is true or not true is irrelevant; the cited ''Vox'' source says {{tq|The group, founded in 2016, has also had close associations with far-right groups like the Proud Boys and with white supremacists.}} It's sourced, the end. ] (]) 00:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Didn't notice the article being inserted in there in the middle of these edits. Vox being a source is extremely questionable, but I'm not going to spend my time since they're considered a reliable source on the list of Wiki's sources. But I did adjust the wording so it follows what the article claims. As it was, the page is saying Proud Boys are white supremacists, which the source is not claiming. ] (]) 22:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 00:01, 9 March 2024
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What exactly are the "far-right" views of this group (none are specifically mentioned)?
As it stands, it just seems designed to slander the group (Patriot Prayer), without offering any evidence of "far-right" activities or views. It seems the only such activities are its recurring confrontations with the far-left group Antifa?151.143.51.84 (talk) 01:09, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
- Let's be honest, we all know why it's in the first paragraph. Don't waste your time arguing with propagandists, i mean that sincerely. LegendLength (talk) 06:25, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Well, if this isn't the fallacy of argumentum ad populum / appeal to common belief, nothing is.
I agree. I've seen national news stories about their rallies in Portland, but this article sheds almost no light on their actual views. I get that they clash with Antifa (who are also often labeled extreme) and a lot of observers call them "far-right", but not much here to clarify what they actually stand for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.80.236.53 (talk) 21:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- We report what reliable sources say. Reliable sources say that Patriot Prayer is "far-right", so we report that. We don't analyze their ideology and make an independent assessment of where it falls on the political spectrum. That is WP:Original research and is specifically prohibited. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:35, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- If "reliable sources" accuse them of being far right without evidence, it would seem they aren't very reliable History Man1812 (talk) 15:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812
- How does Misplaced Pages deal with bias in said reliable sources? There seems to be no evidence except what journalists allege. Certainly it's possible this is the case here, right? With these standards, it seems impossible to prove a negative if one reliable source mistakenly says it's "far-right" while others characterize it as "right-wing," "conservative," or "libertarian" without using the term "far right." Part of the reason I use Misplaced Pages for a source of information is that it tends to remove biases more than journalists do. 47.156.163.253 (talk) 04:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I agree with this criticism. The page uses the term “far right“ repeatedly, but never cites facts. It just quotes other people calling this group far right. Surely there must be some evidence from the group’s own statements or actions, if this is a fair characterization.Sajita (talk) 12:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- There is still no support offered for their views being right-wing, far right (how exactly is that defined anyway?) or what ever. All the article contains is a lot of 'opinions', 'circumstantial stuff' and innuendo. There should be some more thorough information available or one should simply leave out the adjectives. 105.0.2.155 (talk) 20:46, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Additional coverage that may be useful
- Aug 18, 2019 BBC, Portland rally: Far-right and antifa groups face off https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49382386
- Aug 30, 2020 CBC, Portland mayor, Trump trade blame after fatal protest shooting https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/portland-protest-shooting-1.5705390
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cedar777 (talk • contribs) 00:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2020
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This article repeatedly refers to counter-protestors of Patriot Prayer as "antifa" with zero reference to where those protestors truly are self-described "anti-fascist protestors". Therefore the article shows heavy bias. Unless this can be backed up, each instance of "anti-fascist" and "antifa" should be removed entirely. They don't need to be replaced. "counter protestors" should be sufficient without being misleading. Samsepi0I (talk) 01:14, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 01:19, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Related: John Turano
Created the new stub John Turano. Improvements welcome. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2021
| This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Re the first paragraph's sentence "The group has organized rallies in support of Donald Trump" is ambiguous. Perhaps it should be "in support of the Trump 2020 presidential campaign" or "in support of then President Donald Trump" or something else that explains why a group would support an individual, rather than a cause or a campaign. It might have made perfect sense when the sentence was first written, but it doesn't make sense now from a fresh perspective. Someone with more familiarity with the subject matter than me should be able to correctly clarify the sentence. 67.131.54.112 (talk) 05:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Done. Added "former President". ◢ Ganbaruby! (Say hi!) 07:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Additional sources
- Vox in September 8, 2020: Patriot Prayer Explained Cedar777 (talk) 21:13, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Tech Crunch September 4, 2020 https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/04/facebook-patriot-prayer-joey-gibson/ Cedar777 (talk) 00:05, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- Slate August 30, 2020 What Is Patriot Prayer? https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/what-is-patriot-prayer-far-right-group-confrontations-portland.html Cedar777 (talk) 00:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Nightmare Elk
Not sure if the group's involvement in the (removal of the) Nightmare Elk is worth mentioning? More sources on the article's talk page. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:13, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Applying qualifiers without source.
I think it's pretty clear calling groups like Patriot Prayer and Proud Boys terms like "white nationalists" is blatantly not true on its own (Proud Boys isn't even run by anyone who is white right now). And considering there are no articles being sourced that support the statement that Proud Boys is a white nationalist or far-right group, there is no reason for this to be included in the opening paragraph. As of this writing I've had Jorm revert my edit multiple times and is claiming I'm the one doing disruptive edits for removing unsubstantiated claims. Until there is any source (I'm well aware that Misplaced Pages is about sourcing and not "truth," whether the qualifiers are true or not), there is no reason to include blatantly inflammatory descriptions of these groups. I'll revert my edit back and request a source either be provided or explain why these terms should be included. I'm hoping we can be more civil with this and not continue to cause issues in cleaning up the article. Sarstan (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- What you think is true or not true is irrelevant; the cited Vox source says
The group, founded in 2016, has also had close associations with far-right groups like the Proud Boys and with white supremacists.
It's sourced, the end. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Didn't notice the article being inserted in there in the middle of these edits. Vox being a source is extremely questionable, but I'm not going to spend my time since they're considered a reliable source on the list of Wiki's sources. But I did adjust the wording so it follows what the article claims. As it was, the page is saying Proud Boys are white supremacists, which the source is not claiming. Sarstan (talk) 22:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
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