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Revision as of 05:12, 16 April 2024

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-airstrike-hamas-war-palestinians-344bd8da0254e83eedd7245a593823d0 https://www.jurist.org/news/2024/04/hrw-report-alleges-israel-airstrike-on-civilian-apartment-building-is-a-war-crime/ https://thehill.com/policy/international/4574714-deadly-israeli-strike-on-residential-building-apparent-war-crime-human-rights-watch/ https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-broke-international-law-gaza-strike-killing-106 https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/04/04/israel-gaza-hrw-war-crime/ https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/hrw-israeli-strike-killing-106-civilians-apparent-war-crime https://truthout.org/articles/israeli-airstrike-that-killed-106-apparent-war-crime-human-rights-watch-says/

Requested move 7 April 2024

The request to rename this article to Engineer's Building airstrike has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Engineer's Building strike and massacre → Engineer's Building airstrike – Sources currently describe the airstrike as a war crime, but not a massacre. Other airstrikes during the war follow a similar naming convention (Sabra mosque airstrike, Church of Saint Porphyrius airstrike, al-Shati refugee camp airstrike, 31 October 2023 Jabalia refugee camp airstrike, Al-Maghazi UNRWA school airstrike, Al-Falah School airstrike, etc.) मल्ल (talk) 00:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Move per provided sources, unless major use is found. Massacre is a POV title to be used with caution, and this doesn’t seem to apply here. FortunateSons (talk) 14:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The number of victims is too high to be simply referred to as just an airstrike, it would downplay the severity of what a lot of sources have described as a war crime. Killing 106 people, 54 of whom were children who were in their residential building is definitely a massacre, so the article title should remain as it is. Nori2001 (talk) 19:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:NDESC / MOS:EDITORIALIZING / MOS:TERRORIST. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. "Massacre" is far too POV. Not generally described as a massacre and I don't think most people would think of it as a massacre unless they were doing so for political reasons. We wouldn't describe the Blitz as a massacre. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. 30 times more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed in this conflict, yet on Misplaced Pages 2/3 of mass killing events refered to as massacre since October 7 are about mass killings of Israelis. Western media has an extreme bias in the usage of the word massacre — mass killing of Israeli Jews is a massacre, mass killing of Palestinians is not — and this is contaminating Misplaced Pages with systemic bias. A strike that killed hundreds of civilians in their homes is of course a massacre. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 22:31, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't speak Arabic, so this is partly based off Google Translate, but I checked the HRW report in Arabic and it looks like it does describe the attack as a massacre. Articles in Arabic from Al Jazeera , BBC , and Alhurra also use the same language (مذبحة), so I'd support a move to Engineer's Building massacre. मल्ल (talk) 04:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is simply not usual English to describe an airstrike during a bombing campaign as a massacre no matter what the outcome. The Blitz, which targeted and killed far more innocent civilians, is never, for instance, referred to as a massacre. The term "massacre" is very emotive and often used for political reasons, but it needs very good English-language sourcing to be used on Misplaced Pages and the sourcing here simply does not meet the threshold. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  So basically it's only ever a massacre when the tactics chosen reflect the tactics of the enemies of Israel, but not Israel's own tactics. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, if something doesn’t meet the typical requirements for being categorised as a massacre, it usually isn’t a massacre. There are past actions by Israeli forces (construed broadly) that clearly meet that definition, this is (as of time of writing) not one of them. FortunateSons (talk) 23:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is a terribly naive, implying that Western media employees have some special access to the virtue of objectivity and always choose language that best fits the situation with no regard for political considerations. Considering the history of American and British "legacy media" in promoting falsehoods leading to war crimes in the Middle East, I'd say precisely the opposite is true, that their conscious choice to omit terms like "massacre" to talk of Israel's killing fields in Gaza is very good hint that massacres are indeed occurring.

  The NYT, as recently exposed by The Intercept, is also banning the term "occupied territories" to describe the Palestinian territories being currently occupied by Israel. If you take this refusal as proof that Israel is engaging in no occupation "as of time of writing", then you should probably not contribute to this subject on Misplaced Pages. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 23:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per nom. Not used by sources, and against WP:CONTENTIOUS. BilledMammal (talk) 13:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: There's an overwhelming pro-Israel bias evident in the word choice of Western "reliable sources", which sees that no incidence of mass killing by Israel is ever called a massacre while all cases of Palestinian mass killings of Israelis, no matter how rare, are always called that. This is supported by this recent article from The Intercept discussing the NYT's content guide on the Gaza war, which has been leaked. NYT editors are expressly discouraging their writers from describing mass killings of Palestinians as massacres or slaughters, though they had no compunction of doing so dozens of times in reference to the October 7 killings by Hamas, which just goes to show the abscence of such terms in the prefered sources betray the lack of objectivity of the papers that are omitting them, not its presence, and stresses the need to consult sources that do not abide by the universal pro-Israel bias in English-language MSM, including papers based in non-Western countries, human rights watch groups, UN experts, and academic journals. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 23:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Talk:Netiv_HaAsara_massacre#Requested_move_10_October_2023 where editors successfully argued that the killing of a much smaller number of civilians meant that the article should be titled "massacre". Netiv HaAsara massacre had 22 people killed, here we have over five times the number of civilians killed. The idea that only when Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted and killed is what is a massacre is what is "far too POV". As a descriptive title, this is as neutral as any of the articles in Category:Massacres during the Israel–Hamas war. nableezy - 05:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

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