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Revision as of 19:20, 10 August 2024

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Arabic sources?

@Skitash, @Makeandtoss, is there additional details that Arabic sources can add to this? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This article outlines the reactions of Arab states to this attack. I'll add it to the article in a bit. Skitash (talk) 11:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Duplicate article?

This seems like a duplicate article - there is a far more complete article here: 2024 Al-Tabin school massacre. Is there any reason to keep both? Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This one was created first, the other should be redirected here. Copy any necessary material over and start an RM for a title change if desired. Selfstudier (talk) 11:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent: Before there is trouble :) Selfstudier (talk) 11:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I didn't see that this was created first. I'll start an RM and copy necessary material over. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Smallangryplanet, we should have a way of doing this so forks aren't created again. I see you added your article to Timeline of the Israel–Hamas war (13 July 2024 – present). I added mine to Attacks on schools during the Israeli invasion of Gaza.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent Before I checked the date I added it to the Attacks... article as well. I can remove it from the timeline and add this one instead looks like this has already been done. By "a way of doing this so forks aren't created again", do you mean something other than an RM? Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

No I meant next time you or I are creating an article. How can we check if it hasn't been created just 10 mins ago? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be based more on Misplaced Pages’s inability to call Israel massacres a “massacre” rather than being created. It should be moved to the “tabieen school massacre” if Misplaced Pages is actually neutral as it claims, unless calling an event where 100 people including children being blown up a “a massacre” is pov The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria: I have created a move request, please follow established procedure. @Vice regent I guess the tricky thing is when two articles are created with the same content but different names... maybe searching for the proper noun in question before creating the page (i.e. "Al-Tabaeen") will cover most cases? Especially tough with rapidly developing events like this one. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

If I’m not mistaken the “al-“ prefix in Arabic is lowercase when transliterated to English, and “Tabaeen” seems to be the more widely used transliteration of the school name The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Casualties

I'm seeing RS that say 90+, maybe we should lose the earlier 100? Selfstudier (talk) 12:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Name

I’m seeing Al Tabaeen way more than Al Tabin, and the Arabic name also suggests this is not the best transliteration with an Ayin yih being transliterated in to basically a kasra. nableezy - 14:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That's an uncontroversial move you can WP:Boldly do.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages, as usual, downplaying Israeli massacres

Every source that can actually label Israel as a perpetrator this refers to it as a massacre. The downplaying by Misplaced Pages of Israeli atrocities is reaching ridiculous, disgusting, and delusional levels

https://bokra.net/Article-1550371

https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/news/2024/8/10/جثث-متفحمة-وأشلاء-متناثرة-للمصلين

https://www.elnashra.com/news/show/1680457/مواقف-سياسية-ودينية-استنكرت-مجزرة-مدرسة-التابعين-غ?amp=1

https://www.maannews.net/news/2122994.html

https://www.emaratalyoum.com/politics/news/2024-08-10-1.1874249?ot=ot.AMPPageLayout

https://aawsat.com/العالم-العربي/المشرق-العربي/5049218-تنديد-عربي-ودولي-بـمجزرة-الفجر-ذروة-الإرهاب-الإسرائيلي-واستخفاف

The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

So WP:ARTICLETITLE can only be based on English sources, unfortunately. But we can still mention a commonly used Arabic name, in bold, in the first name of the article.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I have brought up the issue with these English sources, being that there is a clear bias, everything from omitting Israel’s name from the article, putting “Hamas-run” before any mention of Palestinian casualties, and using “Gaza” or “Gazan” as demonyms to avoid acknowledging a Palestinian people, a clear bias exists in all these sources (check Reuters which changed the article name twice to make it more friendly towards Israel) The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 16:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 August 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Al-Tabaeen school attack be renamed and moved to Al-Tabaeen school massacre. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Al-Tabaeen school attack → Al-Tabaeen school massacre – The flowchart on WP:DEATHS makes it clear that as the people are dead -> because of homicide -> not capital punishment -> nobody is convicted, we could go with "Al-Tabaeen school killings", but given the number of people who were killed, I believe massacre is, sadly, appropriate. Foreign ministries across the Arab world have also considered it a massacre, and we refer to other such tragic events - of varying scales - as a massacre (i.e. Bucha massacre, Hoddle Street massacre, Samashki massacre, etc.), so I believe this change is appropriate considering the scale of the incident and the number of dead and wounded as reported by RS within the article. Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support several sources have described and called this a massacre

https://bokra.net/Article-1550371

https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/news/2024/8/10/جثث-متفحمة-وأشلاء-متناثرة-للمصلين

https://www.elnashra.com/news/show/1680457/مواقف-سياسية-ودينية-استنكرت-مجزرة-مدرسة-التابعين-غ?amp=1

https://www.maannews.net/news/2122994.html

https://www.emaratalyoum.com/politics/news/2024-08-10-1.1874249?ot=ot.AMPPageLayout

https://aawsat.com/العالم-العربي/المشرق-العربي/5049218-تنديد-عربي-ودولي-بـمجزرة-الفجر-ذروة-الإرهاب-الإسرائيلي-واستخفاف

A systemic bias exists within English sources, it is impossible for them to acknowledge a massacre by Israel as such, in some cases even omitting Israel’s responsibility while putting “Hamas-run” next to any mention of civilian casualties The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 18:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per nomination. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Unassessed Israel-related articles
• Unknown-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• Unassessed Palestine-related articles
• Unknown-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• Requested moves