| Revision as of 05:14, 20 May 2022 editJonesey95 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Mass message senders, Template editors377,118 edits →Signature format: done← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 08:16, 8 October 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,733 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] |
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{{talkheader}} |
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{{talkheader|archive_age=6|archive_units=months|archive_bot=lowercase sigmabot III}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell| |
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{{WikiProject Infoboxes}} |
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}} |
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{{permprot}} |
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{{permprot}} |
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{{WikiProject Infoboxes}} |
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{{tfdend|date=17 December 2011|merge=Template:Infobox person|result=no consensus to merge at this time; some support for refactoring {{Tl|Infobox writer}} so that it internally calls {{Tl|Infobox person}}}} |
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{{tfdend|date=17 December 2011|merge=Template:Infobox person|result=no consensus to merge at this time; some support for refactoring {{Tl|Infobox writer}} so that it internally calls {{Tl|Infobox person}}}} |
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{{User:MiszaBot/config |
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|minthreadsleft = 4 |
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== Request to introduce the signature_type parameter == |
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== Proposed short description == |
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I propose adding <code><nowiki>{{ucfirst:{{Short description|1={{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{{nationality|}} |}} writer}}|2=noreplace}}</nowiki></code> which should add a ] in the format {{grey| writer}}. ― ]] 16:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:<small>Notified ] ― ]] 16:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:I like ''Nationality genre writer'' but do not have the template skills to determine how to select first of multiple genres. |
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:No objection to the proposal as stated. ] (]) 16:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:@] I think you can use <code><nowiki>{{#if:{{{genre|}}}|{{{genre|}}}|{{#if: {{genres|}}|{{#invoke:String|match|{{{genres}}}|%a+|match=1|nomatch=}}}}}}</nowiki></code> (added just before writer) ― ]] 16:49, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Actually, I'm not sure that would work. ― ]] 16:51, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::This needs refinement. You need to strip wikilink code, for example. See for an example copied from a real article. Find an infobox with more sophisticated text handling. – ] (]) 18:46, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::@] @] Looking at , it seems very difficult to tell what the first genre ''is'', and it seems arbitrary to use the first genre listed. ― ]] 20:18, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::an editor can always override the generated short description. i'd just like a sane default. i have seen for example {{tl|infobox game}} that use short description "Game" and thus must be overridden nearly everywhere to be useful. ] (]) 16:04, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::@] it would be very difficult to tell what the first genre is, ''as'' sometimes {{tl|plainlist}} is used, sometimes {{tl|hlist}}, sometimes <code><nowiki><br /></nowiki></code> (just looking at a few cases). ― ]] 16:11, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Acknowledged ] (]) 16:15, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:In the other hand, if there's only one genre, that would be easy enough: <code><nowiki>{{#if: {{{genre|}}}|{{Delink|{{{genre|}}}|}}</nowiki></code> ― ]] 20:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:The <code><nowiki>{{{nationality}}}</nowiki></code> should probably be delinked as well. ― ]] 15:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Pinging @] as a recent contributor; currently I have: <code><nowiki>{{ucfirst:{{Short description|1={{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{Delink|{{{nationality|}}}} |}} {{#if: {{{genre|}}}|{{Delink|{{{genre|}}}|}} writer {{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{#if:{{{death_date|}}}| ({{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}} — {{#invoke:String|match|{{{death_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})| (born {{#invoke:String|match|{{{pub_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})}}}}|2=noreplace}}</nowiki></code> <br />producing {{grey| writer (born X)/(X — Y)}}. Not sure if the genre is needed - see below. Pinging @] and @] as well. ― ]] 22:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::I think including {{para|genre}} is hopeless. I clicked on three articles at random from the first page of the TemplateData monthly report, and the second one, ], shows that including the genre field will not work. The third article, ], would also generate less than desirable results. I think that you should try for "''nationality'' writer (born ''X'')/(''X''–''Y'')" in the sandbox, and then copy some infoboxes to your sandbox and try it out to see if it works (do this regardless of what you are proposing, as it will reveal obvious problems before you spend the time to post again here). Note that I removed the spaces in the proposed year range, per MOS. – ] (]) 00:50, 22 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::<span id="202108220903_Qwerfjkl"></span>@] After testing it on 3 random articles, this code seems to work:<br /><code><nowiki>{{#ifeq:{{{embed|}}}|yes||{{Short description|1={{ucfirst:{{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{Delink|{{{nationality|}}}}} |}} writer {{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{#if:{{{death_date|}}}| ({{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}}−{{#invoke:String|match|{{{death_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})| (born {{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})}}}}}}|2=noreplace}}}} |
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</nowiki></code> ― ]] 09:03, 22 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::I do not see any test results. Please put your proposed changes in the template's sandbox. – ] (]) 21:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::{{Done}} @] ― ]] 07:11, 25 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:@] Is ] okay? ― ]] 08:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::In what cases have you tested this? ] (]) 12:41, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::@] I've tested it on three random pages (you can check ]), and the ] page seems to work fine. ― ]] 19:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Not quite - the emdash should be an endash. Also I think when the box is embedded the automatic summary should not display. ] (]) 20:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::@] {{Done}} ― ]] 20:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::See ], although I find it unlikely that any of the relevant parameters would be used in its embedded form. ― ]] 20:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::I see that your sandbox has both embedded and not embedded at the same time - what is it intended to show? ] (]) 00:48, 7 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::@] The number for the date of birth is from the second template, not the first, meaning the first must have been suppressed. ― ]] 06:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::Okay, but that wasn't what I was asking. Look for example at ] - there is an embedded writer infobox, but summarizing him as "Writer" would not really make sense. ] (]) 11:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::@] It still gives no auto short description if embedded (and I updated the sandbox to show this). ― ]] 12:25, 7 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Okay - what about if more than one nationality is provided, for example using {{tl|hlist}}? ] (]) 02:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::@] I believe I have fixed this (though hlist is only used on two articles, both of which have a short description). I have applied {{tl|Plain text}} and then suppressed.the nationality when it contains a ASCII letter (such as ,{{nbsp}}/ ). An example can be seen at ]. The changes are at ]. ― ]] 10:16, 8 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I wonder if something might have gone wrong with that change - I've changed your sandbox version to have only a single nationality and yet this is not reflected in the shortdesc. ] (]) 00:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{od|12}} @] Oops, I used <code><nowiki>{{#if: '''|'''</nowiki></code> (the pipe shouldn't be there). Now fixed. ― ]] 16:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::Okay. Has this latest version been thoroughly tested to avoid other bugs? ] (]) 02:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::@] I don't anticipate any major issues with the birth_date and death_date parameters (all it does is look the first 4-digit number). The nationality parameter should be okay, though the biggest issue will probably be using the country instead of the nationality (e.g. United Kingdom instead of British). Another problem could be templates, although this doesn't seem to be to much of a problem (see for a list of articles in which the nationality parameter contains templates (and no short description)). Currently, it can correctly handle nationalities with citations and using the {{tl|flag}} template (so long as the nationality is used, not the country). It strips the flag icon and leaves the delinked text for templates like {{tl|USA}} (I've removed most (all?) of those). ― ]] 21:38, 10 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Filed a ]. ― ]] 20:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::I think using {{para|nationality}} should be removed. Per ], this field is often redundant and it is slowly being removed from infoboxes except when it actually provides additional information (I would estimate it belongs in only around 10% of IBs). There is nothing wrong with having nationality in the SD, but it needs to be added manually (without some very complicated logic). ] 16:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::@] I still think it should be kept. It's used in ~14,000 articles, and won't affect anything if no value is given. ― ]] 16:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::It may encourage editors to add more redundant uses of {{para|nationality}} as a way of "improving" the SD. ] 16:25, 26 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::@] I think a note to that effect (probably on the documentation) would stop that (something like):<syntaxhighlight lang=""> |
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| nationality = <!-- ... Do not add this to change the short description --> |
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</syntaxhighlight> ― ]] 16:39, 26 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::Usage guidance is already there:<syntaxhighlight lang=""> |
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| nationality = <!-- use only when necessary per ] --> |
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</syntaxhighlight> I think very few people read the documentation. ] 16:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::@] Hmm... On the other hand, if they don't read the documentation, I don't see how they won't add nationality anyway. ― ]] 16:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::@] My reasoning would be that they won't known add <code>|nationality=</code> to change the short description ''unless'' they read the documentation, where a message could be out to discourage this. ― ]] 10:51, 9 October 2021 (UTC) |
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{{noindent}}{{ping|Qwerfjkl|MB|Nikkimaria|Jonesey95|Philoserf}} I am declining the 3O request. There are more than 2 participants in this dispute, so I would recommend taking this to the ]. Sorry for the inconvenience, ] (]) 13:44, 1 October 2021 (UTC) |
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*This is the problem with trying to create automated “template” short descriptions. |
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:The short description should be tightly focused on what makes the individual subject notable. In most cases, a person’s nationality is background information - not central to their notability - and is thus ''irrelevant'' to the short description. In the rare cases where nationality (or any other “group” label) ''does'' form a central part of the subject’s notability, it can be added to the short description by hand. ] (]) 14:10, 27 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::The above opinion is contrary to the advice given at ], contrary to actual SD usage in hundreds of thousands of articles, and contrary to normal practice at disambiguation articles. Nationality is a useful disambiguator, helpful for people searching for a specific "]" or "]". – ] (]) 17:28, 27 November 2021 (UTC) |
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== Template-protected edit request == |
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{{edit template-protected|Template:Infobox writer|answered=y}} |
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Please add the following code to automatically generate a short description: (see ] above) |
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<code><nowiki>{{ucfirst:{{Short description|1={{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{Delink|{{{nationality|}}}} |}} {{#if: {{{genre|}}}|{{Delink|{{{genre|}}}|}} |
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writer}}|2=noreplace}} |
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</nowiki></code> ― ]] 07:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{smalldiv|1=Courtesy ping: @] @] ― ]] 07:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)}} |
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::This approach would not seem likely to produce a result in line with ], which prefers nationality and dates rather than nationality and genre for disambiguation. ] (]) 13:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::<span id="202108191331_Qwerfjkl"></span>@] It that case, this could be added to the end: <code><nowiki>{{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{#if:{{{death_date|}}}| ({{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}} — {{#invoke:String|match|{{{death_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})| (born {{#invoke:String|match|{{{pub_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})}} |
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</nowiki></code> ― ]] 13:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::...which would add dates but keep genre. As above, I think this proposal needs more refinement. ] (]) 13:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC) |
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: ] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit template-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ETp --> ] ] 13:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::Hi @], I believe I have fixed all the issues (] ]). Should I try to establish more consensus? ― ]] 19:13, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::: You don't have to satisfy me, you have to satisfy {{u|Nikkimaria}} and anyone else watching this talk page, which you clearly haven't done since she responded to the comment you claimed fixed all of the issues with more problems that you seem to have spent no effort fixing. ] ] 19:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::@] Sorry, wrong link. ― ]] 19:17, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::@] I'm not sure if you followed the correct link, since I have corrected those issues. ― ]] 12:03, 28 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::{{not done}}. Please reach agreement with Nikkimaria before reactivating this request — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 08:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Reactivating. See ] — ]] 16:27, 16 October 2021 (UTC) |
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I am not aware of any prohibition on genre, date, or nationaity, as long as they are correct. Any editor can improve the short description by crafting a customised version that better suits the topic, but the automated default must not be wrong or misleading. · · · ] ]: 18:00, 27 October 2021 (UTC) |
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:Hopefully, this shouldn't malfunction. The nationality will be ignored if contains a non-ASCII character - to avoid complications like dual nationalities, etc. - and the birth/death date gets the first year given in the parameter. (The genre proved too difficult.) ― ]] 18:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC) |
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:Reactivating (hopefully for the final time). I've removed the usage of {{{nationality}}}, which @] brought up issues with, and so I request that the changes from ] be implemented. ― ]] 22:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::That will just produce writer unless birth ''and'' death date is given. Would it be better to use just the birth date for living people? — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 13:36, 27 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:::@]: I removed this earlier due to another editor's concerns that these are often unreliable. ― ]] 13:49, 27 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::I've deployed, but I think the code can be improved. I don't understand why the birth date would be considered unreliable for living people, but acceptable for dead people. — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 20:41, 29 November 2021 (UTC) |
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=== Parameter to turn off short description === |
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This template is generating a short description (with an error in it, when the subject is still living) even when the article already has a separate short description. We need a means of turning off the short desc. code in this template entirely. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 21:35, 29 November 2021 (UTC) |
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{{FPER|answered=yes}} |
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:It also seems to be overriding local SDs (living or not). {{u|MSGJ}}, you should probably back out the change. ] 21:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC) |
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I added the {{para|signature_type}} parameter to this template, it could be able to add alternative text in place of '''Signature''' (for example: Seal). This parameter is borrowed from {{tl|Infobox royalty}}. -- ] (]) 16:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{reverted}}, looks like further testing is needed — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 21:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:::The {{para|2|noreplace}} looks like it was in the wrong place. I think it needed to be moved two braces to the left (i.e. it was outside the SD template). – ] (]) 23:39, 29 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{edited2}}. ''''']''''' , ] ] <small>12:58, 5 April 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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== Website field == |
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== Default image alt text duplicates caption == |
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Is there a way to left justify the "Website" field? It looks out of place in this infobox. If not, I would like to propose the "Website" field be left justified (standard in most other infoboxes) and if required, a new "Website_alt" field be introduced to satisfy the need why it is currently centered. Thank you! — ''']'''<sup>'']''</sup> 15:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC) |
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This code for this infobox when embedding an image contains <code><nowiki>|title={{{caption|}}}</nowiki></code>. When the <code>alt=</code> parameter is empty or missing, this results in the image's ALT text getting set to the text of the caption. (]) This is an improper ALT text: {{tquote|The alt text is intended to be read out by screen readers just before the caption, so avoid having the same details in both.}} (]) This behavior is also unhelpful for sighted readers in that it repeats the caption right below the image. ] (]) 16:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Add employer field == |
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:Please provide a simple example showing what you mean. ]'s documentation says that {{para|title}} is used for the mouseover text, and it also says {{tq|When "alt" is used without "title", the alt text is also used as the title}}, but I don't see anything about {{para|title}} being used for alt text. Also, ] says that when thumb/frame/frameless is not specified, {{tq|If no alt text is specifically requested, use the requested caption as alt text.}} Also see on that page, the section that begins {{tq|The actual alt text for the displayed image will be one of the following, in order of preference:}}. The system may be working as designed. – ] (]) 18:46, 4 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, that module does not say anything about the alt text being defaulted to the caption, so it seems to be a side effect somewhere. I looked at other infoboxes and most don't exhibit this behavior of using the caption for the alt. It's only the ones like this one where the HTML title is set. You can tell when this is set by simply hovering over the image, which will popup a tooltip repeating the caption, though the issue itself is in the generated HTML's img alt attribute. I'm not sure the image syntax page applies here—that is discussing the <code>[[File:Foo.jpg|thumb|Caption here…]]</code> syntax, whereas these templates embed images directly, no? ] (]) 00:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I see the tooltip, but at least one page describes the tooltip as being different from the alt text. Again, a sandbox page with a simple example would help. – ] (]) 15:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== How to handle multiple authors in a shared article? == |
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Employer exists in infobox person, but not here. It's probably not relevant for authors of books, but I think it is significant enough for the infobox of writers for newspapers, magazines, websites, etc. ] 14:47, 24 September 2021 (UTC) |
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Is there a standardized way to handle a joint article? Take, for example, ]. I'd like to add their birth and death dates, but I'm not able to use more than one module and would have to resort to something like <code><nowiki>|module= {{plainlist| *{{infobox person}} *{{infobox person}} }}</nowiki></code>. ]'''|'''] 18:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Signature format == |
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== Edit request on 14 August 2024 == |
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There is a signature in ] that is out of proportion. There is no {{para|signature_size}} in this template. Also, the signature is displayed in the right column of the infobox instead of being centered at the bottom. Can this be made to work like the signature in {{tl|infobox person}}. {{u|Jonesey95}}? ] 01:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC) |
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{{edit template-protected|answered=yes}} |
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:{{done}}. Let me know if I broke anything. – ] (]) 05:14, 20 May 2022 (UTC) |
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To any administrator, apply my edit to this infobox's sandbox: replace font-size: 125% in {{para|abovestyle}} with {{param|abovestyle|}}. ] (]) 04:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Please explain the purpose of this edit. Also, I have removed the setting in the edit request saying that this is an edit request for ] rather than ]. ] ] 10:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::This edit request is for consistency with {{para|abovestyle}} in ]. ] (]) 02:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Should the default be left at 125% though, to preserve current behaviour? Also there are other changes in the sandbox with the image and caption fields. Are these also requested? If not, please can you resync the sandbox and then apply your change again? — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 19:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: {{not done}} pending a response ] ] 22:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: No, change default to {{param|abovestyle|}}. No other changes in the sandbox; I didn't request them. I already synced the sandbox; again, there were no errors. ] (]) 02:59, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::The problem isn't errors, but unexpected changes in the ] (you should see a link to it in the edit request banner). To resync means to copy wikitext from ] to ] and {{em|then}} do the requested changes in the sandbox. —] (]) 08:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Already synced! ] (]) 09:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Which test case contains a demonstration of {{para|abovestyle}}? – ] (]) 13:39, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Test case 1. ] (]) 01:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::{{para|abovestyle}} is not in that test case. – ] (]) 14:35, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
_-_The_Noun_Project.svg){kind=small}
Completed. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. 12:58, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Not done pending a response * Pppery * it has begun... 22:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)