| Revision as of 14:56, 19 May 2007 editPmanderson (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers62,752 edits →Quote← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 14:09, 17 November 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,765 editsm Fixing Lint errors from Misplaced Pages:Linter/Signature submissions (Task 31)Tags: Fixed lint errors paws [2.2] |
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{{Talk header}} |
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{{ArticleHistory |
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{{Notice|See also: ]}} |
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{{Article history |
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|action1=PR |
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|action1date=21:06, 10 July 2006 |
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|action1date=21:06, 10 July 2006 |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Macedonia (terminology) |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive1 |
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|action3=FAR |
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|maindate=December 8, 2006 |
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|action3date=09:57, 30 September 2008 |
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|currentstatus=FA |
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|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive1 |
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{{WPBG|class=FA|importance=high|no-todolist=yes|small=yes}} |
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|action3oldid=237748692 |
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{{WPGR|class=FA|importance=high|small=yes}} |
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{{WP Etymology|section=yes|class=good|priority=3|small=yes}} |
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{| class="infobox" |
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!align="center" |]<br/>] |
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---- |
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__TOC__ |
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==Suggested editing== |
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No author is granted such long quotes, or it is misleading to do so. This looks like a PR job (unintentional no doubt). I still think the Danforth quotes are far too extensive and even though some quotes are pertinent, his 'neutrality' has been seriously disputed. I do not suggest removing but clearly summarising. I suggest replacing it with extracts from the Nimitz summary. ] 15:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC) |
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:Politis do you have a link to that? (regardless of Danforth summarization/removal/leaving-as-is). ]] 15:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC) |
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|action4date=21:33, 13 August 2009 |
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|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive2 |
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I only found it in Greek translation: at Eleftherotypia, 13/04/2005. See what you make of it. Does any have the original text? If any Slav Macedonian friends want the gist of it, let me know; or perhaps you have a Makedonski version? ] 15:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC) |
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|action5date = 2023-04-30 |
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|action5link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive3 |
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|action5result = demoted |
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== Quote == |
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|maindate= 8 December 2006 |
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The quote is totally out of place, especially for a featured article, for the following reasons: |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes |class=B|listas=|1= |
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#Biased. Presents "the Balkans" as being exotic, wild, driven by ancient primal forces. Too much history: what does that even mean? |
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{{WikiProject Bulgaria|importance=high}} |
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#It is not uncontroversial. In 5 seconds I found a paper contesting the sentiment behind it. |
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{{WikiProject Greece|importance=high}} |
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#Therefore, the reason for this polyonymy, heteronymy and confusion can be summarised in ]'s words: ''"The Balkan region has a tendency to produce more history than it can consume."' |
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{{WikiProject North Macedonia|importance=High}} |
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:What information does this convey? "The Balkans have a complicated history, and it's complicated due to the complicated history of the Balkans"? It is tautological and banal. |
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{{WikiProject Serbia|importance=mid |needs-infobox= |category= |Belgrade= |Belgrade-importance=}} |
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{{WikiProject Kosovo|importance=low}} |
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On the other hand, I cannot see any reason for it to be included, so I'm taking it out until someone makes an argument for the status quo, beyond accusing me of vandalism (aka editing).--] 16:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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{{Etymology section}} |
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}} |
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It had a questionmark at the end ;) --] 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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__TOC__ |
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{{Clear}} |
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Ok, implying :/--] 16:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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As I your main reason is that the quote shows the Balkans in an "exotic, wild, driven by ancient primal forces". Well, I'm a Balkan native and I think the quote is spot on. Even the controversy you are trying to create is just another example of what this quote aims. I'm reverting--] 18:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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Well then I feel sorry for you I guess. Some of us realise that Balkan problems have concrete causes, nothing to do with "too much history" or other banal meaningless concepts. I am not trying to create controversy, but to have a neutral article. Anyway, it doesn't matter what ''you'' think, the article should not be presenting as a given something which is not uncontroversial and not relevant.--] 19:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:I disagree with deleting the quote. As a native of the Balkans myself, I also think that it is spot on. History is used to back everything: Serbs claim Kosovo, Greeks claim the name Macedonia, Bulgarians claim the Macedonian Slavs, Albanians claim "]" etc all making historical arguments. However, none of these arguments are practically relevant in the modern world; they really shouldn't be issues in resolving the Balkan disputes. Who cares if the Albanians are direct descendents of the Illyrians and therefore native in the territories of "Greater Albania" the result supposedly being that their rights to the territory override those of supposedly later arrivals (Slavs, Greeks)? The facts of today should only be relevant: what the ethnic composition of the region is, what potential effects of independence are (persecution of minorities, encouragement of terrorism elsewhere etc). The truth of that quote is best proved on the internet: all Balkan nationalist websites are appealing to history to justify their claims. The quote is certainly relevant enough to be mentioned and let the reader make up his own mind.--] 19:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:BTW I think ] may be about to overtake the Balkans in nationalism if they haven't already.--] 19:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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== Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page == |
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OK, I give up. I have better things to do than struggle against others' inferiority complexes.--] 19:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. |
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:Actually, I'd have agreed with Methodius. The quote is not very useful, it's patronising, and worst of all, we are not just quoting it, we are explicitly endorsing it and editorialising over it ''("Therefore, the reason ... can be summarised in ]'s words:...")'' -- Won't hurt the article to cut it out. Just my 2c. ] ] 19:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Misplaced Pages. |
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This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. |
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If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the ]. |
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If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the ]. |
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If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the ]. |
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When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. |
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The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. |
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Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly. |
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'''Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:''' |
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::I second that. Churchill is irrelevant to this article. ] 22:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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*<nowiki>http://macedonia.cjb.net/</nowiki> |
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:::Thirded. I don't think it adds much to the article. -- ] 22:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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*:''Triggered by <code>\bcjb\.net\b</code> on the global blacklist'' |
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If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact ] and ask him to program me with more info. |
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::::Ok, Ok, I won't insist: I only thought it worth keeping because it reflected quite well the foreign pov on the Balkans. But anyways, I agree that not much will be lost by removing it.--] 22:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC) |
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From your friendly hard working bot.—] ]<sub style="margin-left:-6.1ex;color:green;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 18:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::My my... I feel the vibes of the old days when the ] was ready to explode for the silliest of all reasons. Hell, we can even throw a poll over it. Guys, who cares? Be as it may! Anyway, since I declare guilty for adding it in the first place, I agree with all of you ("is he drunk?"). I agree with Methodius that it makes Balkans sound exotic. I agree with with Ploutarchos and Laveol that appeals to history are the primary ammunition of nationalists in our neck of the woods. I agree with Fut.Perf. that we shouldn't endorse it. I agree that Churchill is irrelevant (Kekrops). I agree it doesn't add as it is (Chris). And I agree with Aldux (reflects foreign pov). |
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:The link is now dead, so I removed the passage that contains it, as will as the following sentence. Both cite web sites that d not have a neutral point of view and therefore cannot be used as reliable sources. ] <sup><span style="font-size:x-small;">]</span></sup> 22:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC) |
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==]== |
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:::::The solution is simple: |
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Many unsourced sentences and paragraphs. I'm not sure the last two sections ("Names in the languages of the region" and "Terminology by group") are relevant in an encyclopedia article. "Terminology by group" may be ] ("Certain terms are in use by these groups as outlined below. Any denial of self-identification by any side, or any attribution of Macedonia related terms by third parties to the other side, can be seen as highly offensive.") |
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:::::#Don't make the Balkans sound exotic -> by not endorsing the quote. |
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:::::#Inform the reader that history fuels nationalism -> by just mentioning the quote |
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:::::#Stop endorsing it and editorializing -> by rewording "Therefore..." etc |
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:::::#Show the relevance of Churchill -> by pointing out that Macedonia is in the "heart of the Balkans" |
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:::::#Make it add -> by adding/emphasizing information that nationalists appeal on history within the article |
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:::::#Show foreign pov -> Well, it does on its own. |
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The following maps are unsourced on Commons (and often of poor quality), which is an issue given how contentious the topic is: |
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:::::I'll try to work on these in a couple of days, and come back. In the meantime, please behave! I'd also appreciate a little ] ("load of wank deleted", "feel sorry for you"-over a quote? Jeez!) :-) ]] 06:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC) |
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* ] |
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* ] (unless is a "highly reliable source"?) |
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* ] |
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* ] |
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* ] |
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The article mentions a source in one caption (Wilkinson, H. R. (1951). ''Maps and Politics: a Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia''. Liverpool: ]. pp. ''(a)'' p. 1, ''(b)'' pp. 2–4, 99, 121 ff., ''(c)'' p. 120, ''(d)'' pp. 4, 99, 137, ''(e)'' pp. 2, 4. ] .) but I don't have access to it and I don't know what (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) are. ] (]) 12:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Methodius' "counterexample" actually says that Churchill's quote is half the truth; the other half is that foreign empires export history to the Balkans. Including both (especially since the second is also widely held; compare ''Black Lamb and Grey Falcon'') would probably be a good idea. They would make a nice paragraph, starting with "Macedonia is in the heart of the Balkans; Balkan history is complex." ] <small>]</small> 14:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC) |
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Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted.
Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Misplaced Pages.
This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link.
If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting.
If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page.
If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta.
When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags.
The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true.
Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
Many unsourced sentences and paragraphs. I'm not sure the last two sections ("Names in the languages of the region" and "Terminology by group") are relevant in an encyclopedia article. "Terminology by group" may be WP:OR ("Certain terms are in use by these groups as outlined below. Any denial of self-identification by any side, or any attribution of Macedonia related terms by third parties to the other side, can be seen as highly offensive.")
The following maps are unsourced on Commons (and often of poor quality), which is an issue given how contentious the topic is:
.png){kind=link}
