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== Anacronistic naming == |
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== "Persian" vs. Iranian deities == |
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Can the use of the attribution, Iran and Iranian be justified when this is simply a very modern name. |
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{{Ping|Aryzad}}, can you explain what your objection to the use of "Persian" for these deities is based on? The article linked to is ]; furthermore, "Persian" and "Iranian" are largely synonymous, as far as I know. My only concern is consistency.--] (]) 15:15, 31 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Hi there. Both "Persian" and "Iranian" can be used to refer, for example, the Safavids or Sassanids; But not here. Calling those deities "Persian" is like calling Sogdian language an Eastern Persian language, which is wrong. When Zoroastrianization of Persis (Persia proper) took place, the Sogdians were Zoroastrian for centuries. ] (]) 18:51, 31 May 2019 (UTC) |
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Persia, and its other language equivalents, deserves a prominent place in putting this topic into historical perspective. |
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::: Is there any article or a book that you are aware of that discusses the Persianization of the Iranian people and the development of the Persian language as a result of interaction of other Iranian languages? ] (]) 16:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC) |
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] (]) 23:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== List of notable people from Sogdia == |
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:Iran isn't a modern name. Persia and Iran are also not interchangeable names. ] (]) 21:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Hi ], as I explained, the article is about the geographical area and Iranian ''civilisation'', whose culture and language survived until the late 10th century Because the article, and the list, are not about an ethnic group or nation (which Sogdia never was) it is perfectly legit to include, e.g., Avicenna and the others you deleted in the listof "notable people from Sogdia", viz. notable "Sogdians". Consider also that this is an article about an ancient civilisation and that is simply a list. So, at any rate, I don't understand why fussing over this.--] (]) 20:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:Please read the article - it is just much about the people as its about the geographical area. Sogdia was also a geographical region indeed, but 'Sogdian' is exclusively referred to the people that actually were ethnic Sogdians, a people with their own language, culture, and whatnot. Please show a source that uses Sogdian as a geographical term, and not an ethnic one - which also goes for claims that Avicenna or a Greek king like Antiochus are Sogdians. All in all, this is pure ]. Also, please be nice, this is not okay . Neither is your continued edit warring - you have to reach ]. --] (]) 20:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::No man, that would be an article about the Sogdian people, which may be created one day. But this is an article about the civilisation and the geographical area. I really don't understand why you are fretting about this. I even changed the section's title to appease your nitpicking (though I don't think it was necessary, because the meaning of "Sogdian" in "notable Sogdians" in this article must be clear, and because Iranians from Sogdia (as well as Jews, Bactrians, Indians and whoever lived there), well, were "Sogdians").--] (]) 21:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::], you reverted my edits, fair. I am happy that you showed interest in this matter. Could you tell us whether you agree with including people from Sogdia (specifically: Narshakhi, Avicenna, Bukhari) in the section about notable people from Sogdia/Sogdians of this article about the ancient geographical region (and civilisation) of Sogdia? Could you explain why? Also, take notice that with your action you deleted "Antiochus I Soter" (and the sources for the claim) which was part of the stable version of this article.--] (]) 21:12, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::* "'''<u>Sogdians</u>: Inhabitants of Sogdiana (Sughd), mentioned by Strabo (XI, 11, 2–4) and Ptolemy (VI, 12). Although previously under Achaemenid, Seleucid, Graeco-Bactrian, and nomadic (Saka?) Kangju rule, a more distinct Sogdian culture, typified by agriculture, commercial trade, and use of the Sogdian script, emerged during the 1st–3rd centuries. Increased irrigation, urbanization, and the development of literature, art, and architecture, coupled with continued expansion of trade networks (northward into Chach and the steppes, eastward into China), resulted in Sogdian cultural and economic flourishing during the 4th–6th centuries."'' -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdians" in Oliver Dickens. ''Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity''. Oxford Universtiy Press. |
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::::* "''<u>Sogdian religion</u>: The indigenous religion of the Sogdians was a local form of Zoroastrianism with a pantheon of deities, including the Babylonian goddess Nana, and thus distinct from orthodox Sasanian Zoroastrianism, where Ahura Mazda (Ohrmazd) predominated. Religious art was influenced by Hellenistic, Mesopotamian, and Indian iconography and murals from Panjikent give evidence of localized Mithra-worship and a Sogdian funerary cult. Like Persian Zoroastrians, Sogdians utilized ossuaries for burials, but fire-altars were much less common than in orthodox Zoroastrianism."'' -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdian religion" in Oliver Dickens. ''Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity''. Oxford Universtiy Press. |
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::::* "''<u>Sogdiana (Sughd, Sogdia)</u>: Traditional homeland of the Sogdians in Transoxiana. Narrowly defined, it comprises the Zarafshan and Qashqadarya river valleys, more broadly all territory between the Oxus and Jaxartes rivers. Important Sogdian cities included Bukhara, Samarkand, Nasaf, Kish, and Panjikent. Previously ruled by the Achaemenids, Seleucids, Graeco-Bactrians, and Kangju, Sogdiana emerged as an independent kingdom during the Chinese Han dynasty. The arrival of Huns (Chionites, Kidarites, Hephthalites) c.350 politically disrupted Sogdiana, but the agricultural economy and population grew in the 5th–6th centuries."'' -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdiana (Sughd, Sogdia)" in Oliver Dickens. ''Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity''. Oxford Universtiy Press. |
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::::I thus fail to see how historic figures such as ] and ] belong on this page. - ] (]) 21:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::What you posted is not present in the article, which is about the historical geographical area and civilisation. But anyway, like the citation says, ''Inhabitants of Sogdiana'', that is what Avicenna, Bukhari and their ancestors were. Then it is obvious that, as Iranians from Sogdia, they were "Sogdians", but "Sogdian" was never a nationality or an ethnicity.--] (]) 21:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::So Polish people who live in Poland are not actually an ethnic group? Just a term for people living in Poland? That is the kind of argument you’re using. Again, please read the article. ] (]) |
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:::::::Replying to your: ''So Polish people who live in Poland are not actually an ethnic group? Just a term for people living in Poland? That is the kind of argument you’re using. Again, please read the article'' Polish people, who like you said mostly live in Poland, are a self-determined ethnic group whose homeland is a nation (with a long history at that). Sogdia was never a nation, we know little to nothing about what "Sogdians" (i.e. Iranians from Sogdia, like Avicenna, Bukhari, etc.) thought of themselves, and, again, the article is about the geographical area and the ancient civilisation, not the "Sogdian people", their "ethnicity" or their "nation".--] (]) 21:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::The article and sources listed here contradict you though. Also, you’re yet to show a source for your claims, including the one about Antiochius, a Greek king based in Western Asia, being Sogdian. ] (]) |
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:::::::::They do not. The article is about Sogdia, and the sources I provided prove those people were from Sogdia, and no passerby either (e.g., Avicenna's father was from Balkha, but his mother was from Sogdia, born before c. 960; Bukhari's line can be traced back two generations to Sogdian farmers, who lived there before the Muslim invasion). It is you who wrongly interprets the "region of Sogdia" / "Sogdian" as meaning a nation or self-defined ethnic group. I even proposed to change the section's title from "Notable Sogdians" to "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia", though I still think it'd be funny. P.S. The "sources for my claims" are in the material you deleted, and don't attribute to me elements I did not add, namely Antiochius.--] (]) 21:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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You are more or less repeating yourself now. Also, since when did having a mum from Sogdia make someone Sogdian? And since when did having descendants of another ethnic group make you part of said one? Why cant you just list sources that actually support your claims? I.e Avicenna, Antiochus etc are referred to as Sogdian? This still is still pure WP:OR. I think we’re done here. ] (]) |
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::You are more or less misunderstanding and mixing up things now. |
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::''First problem'': adding people from Sogdia to a list about people form Sogdia: res ipsa loquitur, but I tried to explain it to you nevertheless. |
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::''Problem you just raised'': you said: ''since when did having a mum from Sogdia make someone Sogdian? And since when did having descendants of another ethnic group make you part of said one?'' I did not opt for the list's criterion, I just followed it, and btw, I think it is fair to include someone whose parent was from Sogdia, because this is simply a list about an ancient civilisation, readers just like to have things grouped, follow new links and learn more things. I don't get why you are fretting so much about this. I won't explain the same things over again though. It is not "pure WP:OR" (if you really want to nitpick so much) because the list is about people from Sogdia, and the people I added are from Sogdia. Again, sir, I provided multiple sources for my addition, which you deleted. We are not "done" here, though perhaps that is what you wish .--] (]) 22:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Just because you don't get your say doesn't mean I'm nitpicking. This is twice you've randomly said it now - Comment on the comment, not the person. You haven't explained anything except your own opinion, which is not supported by neither the (1) sources listed here, (2) nor the article, which is to no surprise why you are unable to just list even one source that support your claims. Also, some more sources just for the lolz; |
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:::''The Sogdians inhabited the fertile valleys, surrounded by deserts, that are situated between the Amu Darya and the Syr Darya, and in particular the valley of the Zarafshan, today located in Uzbekistan and Tadjikistan. Speaking an Iranian language, this people is attested for more than fifteen centuries, from the inscriptions of the Achaemenid sovereigns in the 6th century BCE to the texts of the Arab geogra�phers of the 10th century CE, which note the irreversible decline of the cultural and linguistic identity of the Sogdians. Even though they founded Samarkand and Bukhara, the Sogdians have remained largely unknown to the general public, for they afterward melted into the mass of Islamic Iranian-speaking peoples.'' - p 2, Sogdian Traders, Étienne de la Vaissière. |
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:::''The Avestan language is similar to the languages of the ancient eastern Iranians, for example, the Bactrians, the Sogdians and the Khwarazmians; thus Zoroaster and the Avesta can be placed in the eastern regions of ancient Iran, present-day central Asia.'' - p 71, Continuity in Iranian Identity, Davaran |
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:::--] (]) 22:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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Should we include people from Sogdia (i.e. people born before 1000 in Sogdia or elsewhere to parents from Sogdia) in this article's section called "Notable Sogdians" or "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia"? --] (]) 21:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose'''. To anyone seeing this, please read the section above. This is starting to get disruptive. Two veteran editors are against you, as well as the sources listed here and the article itself. Yet you proceeded to do this? --] (]) 22:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:'''Support'''. As pointed out, this is an article about a historical geographical area, not a nation or an ethnic group. The title of the section "Notable Sogdians" (which has been proposed to be changed to "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia" to calm HistoryofIran) must be intended as people from Sogdia, which is the case of Avicenna and Bukhari, both born here before AD 1000, and whose ancestry can be traced back to Sogdia. We have multiple sources supporting the claim they were from Sogdia. I could understand opposition to mentioning they were from Sogdia in their own article, but I don't see why not including these verified pieces of information in the list. --] (]) 23:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::This is starting to get weird. The problem is a fundamental misunderstanding (on your part) of what the article is about, and of what the section "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia"'s list is about. The sources you provided, which are not included in the article, prove nothing, except that Sogdia was a historical geographical area inhabited by Iranians, and that the inhabitants of "Sogdia" were known as "Sogdians". There is a difference between this and a self-defined ethnicity, or even ], which Sogdia never was. With that being said, , which you deleted, justify the addition of all people I added, including Avicenna and Bukhari, who were born in said geographical area, and, further, whose ancestry is rooted there. |
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::I again point out that I proposed to change the title of the section from "Notable Sogdians" to "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia" to appease your nitpicking, even though I think it'd be funny.--] (]) 22:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Repeating yourself again and now even falsely claiming that those sources support you. Not to mention you are commenting on me again (this is like what, the fifth time in 2 hours?). Go on, do it again and I will gladly report you. Perhaps you will be topic banned from here as well? --] (]) 22:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Only because you are failing to understand again. "List of people from Sogdia" = content: people from Sogdia. What is it you don't get? No, it's you who's falsely accusing me to be a liar. The sources I provided do support my additions, showing those people's origin.--] (]) 22:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::You: ''Not to mention you are commenting on me again (this is like what, the fifth time in 2 hours?). Go on, do it again and I will gladly report you. Perhaps you will be topic banned from here as well?'' this is a ]. I advise you to stop this behavior.--] (]) 22:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' as that is inconsistent with ] and ]. Being born in does not make one ; so unless there are actual sources to support the person being actually part of this civilisation/ethnic group/whatever, then inclusion is inappropriate. ] (] / ]) 03:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*:Looking through a few more examples, this is obvious OR (someone's mother being does not make one , either), and the only reason I'm not removing it entirely right now is out of some certainly unwarranted bit of respect for process.] (] / ]) 03:40, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Neutral''' As it is clear from ] if there is reliable secondary source that state than the suggested people group are indeed Sogdians than it should be included else discarded] <sup>]</sup> 06:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Comment: ], ], even if the meaning of the list, of what Sogdia was or where ] was from is not clear enough: here is a source stating that the mother of Avicenna was Tajik (i.e. a descendant of "Sogdians")<ref name="NCBI">{{cite web|title=Ibn Sina (Avicenna): The Prince Of Physicians|last1=Amr|first1=Samir S.|last2=Tbakhi|first2=Abdelghani|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6077049/|publisher=], ]|access-date=15 September 2021|archive-url=http://web.archive.org/web/20210915102409/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6077049/|archive-date=15 September 2021|quote= father, Abdullah, was from the city of Balkh and worked as a local governor for a village near Bukhara. His mother was a Tadjik woman named Sitara.}}</ref> and this is to support that he was Sogdian<ref name="corbin">{{cite book|last=Corbin|first=Henri|author-link=Henry Corbin|translator=Joseph H. Rowe|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Voyage_and_the_Messenger/_VF0AgAAQBAJ?hl|title=The Voyage and the Messenger Iran and Philosophy|page=40|publisher=]|year=1998|quote=Each author naturally retains traces of his cultural origin: Avicenna was a Sogdian whose family came from Bactria|isbn=9781556432699}}</ref><ref name="ferro">{{cite book|last=Ferro|first=Marc|author-link=Marc Ferro|translator=Joseph H. Rowe|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/La_colonizaci%C3%B3n/cnu10FPP4c0C?hl|title=La colonización una historia global|page=208|publisher=]|year=2000|quote=]:Correspondiendo más o menos a la antigua Sogdiana, hogar de una civilización que dio origen a Avicena y Firdusi, la región tayika fue durante mucho tiempo el motivo de una rivalidad entre Bujara y Kokan. (]: Roughly corresponding to ancient Sogdiana, home to a civilization that gave rise to Avicenna and Firdusi, the Tajik region was for a long time the reason for a rivalry between Bukhara and Kokan.)|isbn=9789682322228}}</ref><ref name="caselli">{{cite book|author=]|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Casentino_History_Anthropology_Envir/-bJGy9gtxlsC?hl|title=La lirica italiana e l'irredentismo da Goffredo Mameli a Gabriele d'Annunzio|page=54|publisher=Zeb89 productions SAS Kenneth Caselli|year=2004|quote=Avicenna was only the most famous of many Sogdian scientists|ISBN=8875390355}}</ref><ref name="guarnieri">{{cite book|last=Guarnieri|first=Massimo|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Da_Habilis_a_Jobs_due_milioni_di_anni_co/ufe1DwAAQBAJ?hl|title=Da Habilis a Jobs: due milioni di anni con la tecnologia|page=220|publisher=Società Editrice Esculapio|year=2019|quote=Abū 'Alī al-Husayn ibn 'Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā (latinizzato in Avicenna, Sogdiana, 980–1037) fu uno scienziato universale, uno dei più grandi di ogni tempo e massimo medico medioevale|isbn=9788835303930}}</ref><ref name="role">{{cite paper|author=Dr. Richard C. Foltz|title=IRANIAN PEOPLES & RELIGION The Role of Central Asian Peoples in the Spread of World Religions|date=1999|publisher=]|quote=With their international connections Sogdians knew foreign languages, and many were literate. They were often engaged as interpreters and translators. It was Sogdian scribes who translated most of the religious texts of Buddhism, Manichaeism, and Christianity into the various languages of the Silk Route, from Prakrit, Aramaic, or Parthian into Bactrian, Tokharian, Khotanese, Turkish or Chinese, either via Sogdian or directly. As Central Asia became Islamicized beginning in the eighth century, the Sogdians gradually adopted the Persian language and Iranian Islam. Within two centuries Transoxiana indeed became the center of the Persian cultural world under the Samanid dynasty. Rudaki, Farabi, Khwarazmi, and Avicenna are just a few of the Central Asians who stand out in medieval Islam.}}</ref> plus, of course, that his mother was from Sogdia (born 950s or 960s, in ], probably in the small village of Afshona).<ref name="muk">{{cite book|last=Mukherjee|first=Sadhan|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Afghanistan_from_Tragedy_to_Triumph/mTBuAAAAMAAJ?hl|title=Afghanistan from Tragedy to Triumph|page=4|publisher=]|year=1984|isbn=|quote= mother was from Bukhara.}}</ref><ref name="kumar">{{cite book|editor=Raj Kumar|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Medieval_Art_and_Culture/Fj7rAAAAMAAJ?hl|title=Medieval Art and Culture|page=228|publisher=Anmol publications via ]|year=2000|isbn=9788126103928|quote=Near this city was a village called Afshana, where Avicenna's father married a lady named Sitara and where Avicenna was born in the year 370/980}}</ref> According to ], Avicenna's native language could well have been Sogdian.<ref name="foltz">{{cite web|title=Interview with Richard Foltz on the history of Tajiks|last=Foltz|first=Richard|author-link=Richard Foltz|url=https://www.caa-network.org/archives/16094|publisher=caa-network.org|access-date=16 September 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210917001854/https://www.caa-network.org/archives/16094|archive-date=16 September 2021|quote=''interviewer'': What do you think about all current disputes on ethnicity of scientists and poets of time, as well as heritage claims for cities, like Bukhara, Samarqand, Marv, etc.? If, for example, Imam Bukhari or Avicenna’s native language or first language was Persian, and Persian-speakers of time used to be named “Tajiks”, do Tajiks have right to call them sons of their nation? ''Foltz'': I think the native language of Bukhari and Ibn Sina may well have been Sogdian, but they surely learned both Persian and Arabic in their childhood. But by the usage of the time they would have been considered Tajiks, so I see no problem in considering them that way today. The idea of “nation”, however, as it is used now, is much more recent, dating only back to the French Enlightenment. People didn’t think in those terms in the 10th century.}}</ref> |
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::::I even found Baumer claiming Al-Farabi was probably a Sogdian, so now I propose we include him as well.<ref name="farabi">{{cite book|last=Baumer|first=Christoph|author-link=Christoph Baumer|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Central_Asia/LhiWDwAAQBAJ?hl|title=The History of Central Asia The Age of Islam and the Mongols|page=42|publisher=]|year=2016|quote=Abu Nasr Muhammad al-Farabi (ca. 870–950) was a renowned philosopher and scientist with a keen interest in the theory of knowledge. Probably a Sogdian from the great merchant city of Farab, now called Otrar, in southern Kazakhstan|isbn=9781838609405}}</ref> For Bukkhari: if the fact his ancestors were 8th-century Sogdian farmers kidnapped from Sogdia and converted to Isam, and that he was born in Sogdia, isn't enough to consider him a "Sogdian", I will provide some sources for him too. |
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::::I point out this is a list about an extinct civilisation, our sole purpose must be inform and entertain the reader. I would not add that these individuals were "Sogdians" or partly "Sogdian" (such as Alexander IV of Macedon, which Canadian randomly deleted without discussing) to their own article. But is fine to have the information here. I propose we change the title of the section, if necessary (to "Notable Sogdians and people from Sogdia").--] (]) 10:01, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Read ]. Most of the citations arent even reliable and half of them doesnt even state that they wre Sogdian. More ]. Only the bit about Farabi is fine, but his origin is heavily disputed - read his article. --] (]) 10:29, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::] and ] are not reliable? They state: ''Avicenna was only the most famous of many Sogdian scientists'' and ''Each author naturally retains traces of his cultural origin: Avicenna was a Sogdian whose family came from Bactria''. Those are the sources supporting the claim. Regarding Farabi, you must take in consideration this is not Farabi's article, just a list about people from Sogdia in Sogdia's article. We won't change his article. The claim is supported, and I think it's fine to include Farabi, in addition to Avicenna.--] (]) 10:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::Giovanni no. Corbin yes, but he never stated what you wrote. This is taken out of context, he is quoting someone, but I assume you didn't know that? Regardless, the vast majority of sources call Avicenna a Persian, read ]. Also, Canadian didnt 'randomly' remove anything, the fact that you are trying to argue a son of '''Alexander the Great''' as a Sogdian is next level ]. Being Sogdian is still an ethnicity, as stated by these various sources and the article itself. --] (]) 10:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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{{ctop|Off-topic conduct discussion ] (] / ]) 21:14, 16 September 2021 (UTC)}} |
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:::::::::I see you like using with other editors instead of they, and also like to call people by name. It is custom in Misplaced Pages to use "they" between editors, and is custom in the Italian and English world to use the surname when referring to somebody we are not familiar with. Thus "Giovanni" should be called "Caselli". But anyway, Doctor Caselli is a respected Italian anthropologist and yes, he is reliable. I did not try to argue that Alexander was Sogdian, that is what you want to see. I said Canadian might've discussed it before taking action, since there is a discussion going on here at the talk page. And yes, I do think it is fine to include Alexander, the son of a "Sogdian" woman, in a "list of people from Sogdia/Sogdians" because this is just a wikilist about a scarcely known place and civilisation whose purpose is to entertain and inform the reader. Also note that I did not add Alexander in the first place.--] (]) 11:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::It also custom for users to know the guidelines and read the article before they edit it. This is a clear case of ] and ] - I'm out. --] (]) 11:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::You: ''It also custom for users to know the guidelines'' this looks like another ]. You have already been warned. To clarify, does "I am out" mean you retire from the discussion? --] (]) 11:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC) |
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{{cbot}} |
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*'''Support''' I agree with user Luwanglinux - if there are *valid ]* sources that clearly indicate a person is Sogdian, it certainly makes sense to include them as a "notable Sogdian" and cite the source. ] (]) 13:18, 17 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*''Comment'': Here the sources that indicate that the possibly Sogdian native speaker Avicenna<ref name="foltz">{{cite web|title=Interview with Richard Foltz on the history of Tajiks|last=Foltz|first=Richard|author-link=Richard Foltz|url=https://www.caa-network.org/archives/16094|publisher=caa-network.org|access-date=16 September 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210917001854/https://www.caa-network.org/archives/16094|archive-date=16 September 2021|quote=''interviewer'': What do you think about all current disputes on ethnicity of scientists and poets of time, as well as heritage claims for cities, like Bukhara, Samarqand, Marv, etc.? If, for example, Imam Bukhari or Avicenna’s native language or first language was Persian, and Persian-speakers of time used to be named “Tajiks”, do Tajiks have right to call them sons of their nation? ''Foltz'': I think the native language of Bukhari and Ibn Sina may well have been Sogdian, but they surely learned both Persian and Arabic in their childhood. But by the usage of the time they would have been considered Tajiks, so I see no problem in considering them that way today. The idea of “nation”, however, as it is used now, is much more recent, dating only back to the French Enlightenment. People didn’t think in those terms in the 10th century.}}</ref> a native of Sogdia<ref name="guarnieri">{{cite book|last=Guarnieri|first=Massimo|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Da_Habilis_a_Jobs_due_milioni_di_anni_co/ufe1DwAAQBAJ?hl|title=Da Habilis a Jobs: due milioni di anni con la tecnologia|page=220|publisher=Società Editrice Esculapio|year=2019|quote=Abū 'Alī al-Husayn ibn 'Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā (latinizzato in Avicenna, Sogdiana, 980–1037) fu uno scienziato universale, uno dei più grandi di ogni tempo e massimo medico medioevale|isbn=9788835303930}}</ref> was Sogdian.<ref name="corbin">{{cite book|last=Corbin|first=Henri|author-link=Henry Corbin|translator=Joseph H. Rowe|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Voyage_and_the_Messenger/_VF0AgAAQBAJ?hl|title=The Voyage and the Messenger Iran and Philosophy|page=40|publisher=]|year=1998|quote=Each author naturally retains traces of his cultural origin: Avicenna was a Sogdian whose family came from Bactria|isbn=9781556432699}}</ref><ref name="ferro">{{cite book|last=Ferro|first=Marc|author-link=Marc Ferro|translator=Joseph H. Rowe|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/La_colonizaci%C3%B3n/cnu10FPP4c0C?hl|title=La colonización una historia global|page=208|publisher=]|year=2000|quote=]:Correspondiendo más o menos a la antigua Sogdiana, hogar de una civilización que dio origen a Avicena y Firdusi, la región tayika fue durante mucho tiempo el motivo de una rivalidad entre Bujara y Kokan. (]: Roughly corresponding to ancient Sogdiana, home to a civilization that gave rise to Avicenna and Firdusi, the Tajik region was for a long time the reason for a rivalry between Bukhara and Kokan.)|isbn=9789682322228}}</ref><ref name="caselli">{{cite book|author=]|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Casentino_History_Anthropology_Envir/-bJGy9gtxlsC?hl|title=La lirica italiana e l'irredentismo da Goffredo Mameli a Gabriele d'Annunzio|page=54|publisher=Zeb89 productions SAS Kenneth Caselli|year=2004|quote=Avicenna was only the most famous of many Sogdian scientists|ISBN=8875390355}}</ref> This is for Farabi.<ref name="farabi">{{cite book|last=Baumer|first=Christoph|author-link=Christoph Baumer|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Central_Asia/LhiWDwAAQBAJ?hl|title=The History of Central Asia The Age of Islam and the Mongols|page=42|publisher=]|year=2016|quote=Abu Nasr Muhammad al-Farabi (ca. 870–950) was a renowned philosopher and scientist with a keen interest in the theory of knowledge. Probably a Sogdian from the great merchant city of Farab, now called Otrar, in southern Kazakhstan|isbn=9781838609405}}</ref> And this is for ].<ref name="mankind">{{cite book|author=]|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Mankind_Quarterly/nMIiAQAAMAAJ?hl|title=The Mankind Quarterly Volume 38|page=198|publisher=]|year=1997|quote=Narshakhi, a Sogdian historian writing in the tenth century CE}}</ref><ref name="foltz2">{{cite book|last=Foltz|first=Richard|author-link=Richard Foltz|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Religions_of_Iran/sBu9DwAAQBAJ?hl|title=Religions of Iran From Prehistory to the Present|page=|publisher=]|year=2013|isbn=9781780743097|quote=Narshakhi, a tenth-century Sogdian historian, states that al-Moqanna' used mirrors to direct sunlight}}</ref> At least them may be included. As for ], I think we can just mention him in the entry of his mother ].--] (]) 13:45, 17 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - Some of the sources are unreliable: Sterling, Anmol etc. Some are non-specialist works whilse some are trade books. Almost all scholarship, regarded as authority in the domain, do not support the floated proposal. ] (]) 16:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*''Comment'' - ] how is Sterling unreliable, where does it state these individuals were Sogdians, and what difference does it make anyway? One source is enough, but we have several from renowned Western scholars stating the individuals were "Sogdians" (again, if the fact they were born there isn't enough to be included in ] a list in the first place). Also, be more specific, so far your opposition goes only against Sterling and Anmol, the only sources that ''do not'' state they were Sogdians (and were not used in my above comment with the proposed sources to be included in the article). You should address each object specifically (there is Narshakhi, Avicenna, and Farabi) and also each scholar. Why do you think that ], ], ], and ] are unreliable? Could you provide some sources for your claim that ''Almost all scholarship, regarded as authority in the domain, do not support the floated proposal''. Thanks, much appreciated.--] (]) 16:41, 17 September 2021 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' Classic ''every pidgeon is a bird, but not every bird is a pidgeon''. A Sogdian is someone who is overwhelmingly described as such in ]. Finding one or two that may describe guys like ] as Sogdian won't cut it as there are literally hundreds that describe him as Persian. Same goes for Greek historic figures that may have had Sogdian maternal descent (i.e. they're still Greek as per ], WP:VER and WP:RS). |
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# "'''<u>Sogdians</u>: Inhabitants of Sogdiana (Sughd), mentioned by Strabo (XI, 11, 2–4) and Ptolemy (VI, 12). Although previously under Achaemenid, Seleucid, Graeco-Bactrian, and nomadic (Saka?) Kangju rule, a more distinct Sogdian culture, typified by agriculture, commercial trade, and use of the Sogdian script, emerged during the 1st–3rd centuries. Increased irrigation, urbanization, and the development of literature, art, and architecture, coupled with continued expansion of trade networks (northward into Chach and the steppes, eastward into China), resulted in Sogdian cultural and economic flourishing during the 4th–6th centuries."'' -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdians" in Oliver Dickens. ''Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity''. Oxford Universtiy Press. |
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# "''<u>Sogdian religion</u>: The indigenous religion of the Sogdians was a local form of Zoroastrianism with a pantheon of deities, including the Babylonian goddess Nana, and thus distinct from orthodox Sasanian Zoroastrianism, where Ahura Mazda (Ohrmazd) predominated. Religious art was influenced by Hellenistic, Mesopotamian, and Indian iconography and murals from Panjikent give evidence of localized Mithra-worship and a Sogdian funerary cult. Like Persian Zoroastrians, Sogdians utilized ossuaries for burials, but fire-altars were much less common than in orthodox Zoroastrianism."'' -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdian religion" in Oliver Dickens. ''Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity''. Oxford Universtiy Press. |
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# "''<u>Sogdiana (Sughd, Sogdia)</u>: Traditional homeland of the Sogdians in Transoxiana. Narrowly defined, it comprises the Zarafshan and Qashqadarya river valleys, more broadly all territory between the Oxus and Jaxartes rivers. Important Sogdian cities included Bukhara, Samarkand, Nasaf, Kish, and Panjikent. Previously ruled by the Achaemenids, Seleucids, Graeco-Bactrians, and Kangju, Sogdiana emerged as an independent kingdom during the Chinese Han dynasty. The arrival of Huns (Chionites, Kidarites, Hephthalites) c.350 politically disrupted Sogdiana, but the agricultural economy and population grew in the 5th–6th centuries."'' -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdiana (Sughd, Sogdia)" in Oliver Dickens. ''Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity''. Oxford Universtiy Press. |
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Only figures that are overwhelmingly referred to as "Sogdians" in WP:RS should be included, IMO. |
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- ] (]) 17:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*''Comment'': But what do the sources you provided prove or disprove about Avicenna&co though? Even if you want to go on assuming this is an article about the Sogdian ethnicity (Avicenna was a Sogdian by birth, but also "ethnic Sogdian" the way you understand it), it would still be about it and not Avicenna's own article (though I now think the info should be included in his article as well), and the reliable sources still claim he was a Sogdian. First you said: come back with sources. Now you say "no source could ever be found for this claim." But anyway, do you have an English source saying Avicenna wasn't an ethnic Sogdian? Matter fact, do you have a reliable source claiming he was a Persian in a way that we are sure isn't just a synonym for Iranian? You said ''Only figures that are '''overwhelmingly''' referred to as "Sogdians" in WP:RS should be included, '''IMO'''''. Your opinion differs from Misplaced Pages's basics, though, and that isn't the case for the Persian claim either.--] (]) 18:26, 17 September 2021 (UTC) |
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===References=== |
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{{reflist}} |
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Can the use of the attribution, Iran and Iranian be justified when this is simply a very modern name.
Persia, and its other language equivalents, deserves a prominent place in putting this topic into historical perspective.
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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