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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Consider whether to expand on his views on the Russian invasion of Ukraine |
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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Consider whether to expand on his views on the Russian invasion of Ukraine |
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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Incorporate noteworthy anti-Chomsky critique into the Political views section so the final section can focus on Influence/Legacy |
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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Incorporate noteworthy anti-Chomsky critique into the Political views section so the final section can focus on Influence/Legacy |
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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Cross-reference {{IEP|chomsky-philosophy|Noam Chomsky}} |
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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Invite reviewers to the FA nom |
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* {{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=green}} Invite reviewers to the FA nom |
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<span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">]</span> 04:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC) |
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<span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">]</span> 04:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== Influenced (academia) list == |
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== Israel == |
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The first and last names on this list are mismatched. ] (]) 22:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC) |
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{{ping|SPECIFICO}} |
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:What do you mean? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 23:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC) |
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WP:DUE: "Neutral Point of View says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." |
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== Controversy Section? == |
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Seems there is a misunderstanding on what ] says; it does not say that we have to weigh the prominency of a viewpoint to determine on its inclusion, but rather that differing viewpoints have to be reported on in proportion to their prominency. This is crystal clear from the quote cited above. |
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Among some other problems throughout his life, Noam was close with former financier and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. Noam has claimed to have met with him several times after his original conviction and often gave extremely lame or bizarre responses to people on this topic such as "none of your business" or "he served his time" despite the severity of his crimes and the heinous nature. ] (]) 02:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Chomsky has called Israel an apartheid state worse than the one that existed in South Africa, that is his viewpoint; did he give other viewpoints that made you determine citing this was "undue"? No he didn't, and the same goes for his other comments which you removed indiscriminately. I very carefully wrote the prose, ensuring that each of his comments were added in quotes, so there is no valid POV claim. WP:NOTNEWS in not valid since Middle East Monitor and DemocracyNow are not primary sources. COATRACK is an essay. |
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:"Controversy" sections are often the result of poor writing, noxious and poorly representative; the current article does the much preferable thing of interspersing those details throughout the article where they actually belong, in proportion to how they are represented in sources about Chomsky per ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 02:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Please provide valid Misplaced Pages-based counterarguments or restore the sourced content you have removed. ] (]) 18:57, 15 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Understood. Where do you think the relationship with Epstein should go? I think it's pretty significant and has a wealth of reporting. ] (]) 02:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'm sorry you think I do not understand NPOV, but I have tens of thousands of edits in the most contentious articles on this site and I am confident in my understanding of NPOV and the finer points of how it can be misrepresented and mistreated. Since you don't accept my view, you are welcome to start an RfC and see whether you can convince the community. You would need to convince everyone that - in Chomsky's nearly century-long life story - his views on Israel and Zionism suddenly became much much more important and central ''to his biography'', justifying your additions. I think it's a long shot, but have a try, if you wish.]] 19:42, 15 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::We don't put emphasis on the Epstein connection because reliable sources don't. If the goal amounts to activism, then the intent is misplaced. I'm fairly sure this discussion has been had before, but if you want to pitch your case you can collate some sources here—I'm sure many are of relatively low quality (not dismissing the situation itself here, don't misunderstand) but generally these cases are decided based on what the best available sources have to say. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 02:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|SPECIFICO}} Then as an experienced editor, with good faith, supposedly, you are certainly aware of ]: “RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable. Editors should try to resolve their issues before starting an RfC.” I have already brunt the ] and demonstrated verifiability by providing reliable secondary citations. Your refusal to even discuss the issue and elaborate on your opposition to the addition of this reliably sourced material without guideline-backed reasons is quite telling. ] (]) 20:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I guess it would depend on what a reliable source is but regardless Chomsky himself has endorsed that he has met with him. |
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:::First off: if you wish to disparage or threaten me, that should be done on my user talk page, not here. Second, please slow down and consider the reason I gave to explain why this content should not be added. Third, please review ].]]▪︎ |
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:::Here are two to get the ball rolling |
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::::{{ping|SPECIFICO}} WP:ONUS links to WP:CONSENSUS which says: “Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines.” You have not made any legitimate concerns other than throwing random non-fitting Misplaced Pages guidelines and making false accusations of alleged disparaging and threats. It’s your responsibility to articulate your concerns, and if there’s an inability/unwillingness to do so, then that’s frankly speaking not my problem. ] (]) 06:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeffrey-epstein-noam-chomsky-leon-botstein-bard-ce5beb9d?mod=hp_lead_pos1 |
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:::::As I said above, the ONUS is on you to demonstrate consensus for the content you believe should be added. That may take more time than you would prefer, but that is the standard we follow. I have given my resoning against this addition several times already, above and in my edit summary.]] 17:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeffrey-epstein-calendar-cia-director-goldman-sachs-noam-chomsky-c9f6a3ff?mod=article_inline ] (]) 02:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::{{ping|SPECIFICO}} There is no such thing as "demonstrating consensus"; consensus will be reached when you provide counterarguments based on WP guideline. The burden is on you to engage and express your positions. ] (]) 20:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::See ] for bountiful guidance. |
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:::::::This is a fundamental misunderstanding of ONUS, CONSENSUS, and seeveral behavioral guidelines. I have repeatedly stated my position and the reasons for it. Perhaps ask an Admin for help if you doubt my statement that you are misunderstanding policy. The reason I suggested an RfC is because that would be one way to demonstrate consensus. I recall you've initiated at least one RfC in the past (ignoring RFCBEFORE, as you know) so I thought you would find that suggestion constructive here.]] 21:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::The other part of the equation here is one of proveable interest versus innuendo: it's simply not that interesting on an encyclopedia what friends someone has unless they, y'know, do something (more substantial than move money, I have to specify, even a lot of money)—even if the WSJ wrote about it, there's just not much for us to synthesize of encyclopedic interest from that. I get it's frustrating for people who smell smoke, as it were—it's irrelevant here, but I happen not to think much of the Epstein connection with Chomsky in particular—but we need sources saying there's a big fire if we don't want to go afoul of our policies about ]. We can't just write suggestively about smoke, even if it's well-sourced. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 03:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{ping|SPECIFICO}} Please stop throwing false accusations that I have started RfCs having ignored RFCBEFORE. Consensus is a group effort, it is not a individual "demonstration". A group effort that starts by you explaining clearly what you object to, because you indiscriminately reverted all of my edits. ] (]) 22:06, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Well first of all the mere relationship with the most infamous sex offender of all time years after his conviction and being listed on Epstein's calendar should be enough to warrant a mention. Secondly, he had been given money, financial advice, free trips (not to Little St. James) but flown around to various places to meet with Epstein, and many other things that should warrant at the very little a mention of it all while not denying it and keeping everything extremely vague on exactly what happened. Kinda insane to just call having a relationship with the most heinous person in the world in both criminality and lifestyle "just smoke". ] (]) 03:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I was thinking of the one that I removed and got you blocked. I don't know and didn't say about any other time, but that's off topic. I don't look at who made an edit when I read it. I do not indiscriminately revert anything due to which editor contributed it. If you wish to make further personal remarks please use my user talk page.]] 22:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::I really do understand why you say all this, but I'll try to reiterate the position: we do not want to slander anyone or insinuate they did things they did not do. Generally, an encyclopedia article would not mention that X public figure moved $200,000 for Y public figure if there is not something more interesting involved there. We have nothing more material to say in that vein here, so if we include the $200,000 thing, we are in effect publishing innuendo implying Chomsky did awful things without actually saying that he did. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 03:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::{{ping|SPECIFICO}} What an absurd statement, no one gets blocked for putting an RFC. Please abide by your own statements, and make further personal remarks on my talk page. Now you are welcome begin to elaborate your opposition in a clear manner to each and every edit, since you reverted everything. ] (]) 22:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Chomsky's views on Israel have been a matter of public record for decades, in 1975 ] wrote . He wrote the introduction to , and along with ] wrote and . The current material drastically undersells his views on this topic and the weight it is given in coverage of him. ''']''' - 04:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|nableezy}} Agreed although undersells is an understatement given that the current content just claims he was "raising awareness", with no mention of his actual views: anti-Zionism; his apartheid analogy; and other comments. ] (]) 10:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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I reviewed all the material that was reverted that had been added about Chomsky's views on Israel, which I would broadly characterize as quite nuanced and varied, but include, strong opposition to the Israeli settlers in the West Bank, he's a non-Zionist or anti-Zionist left-socialist, almost communist, anarchist Jewish intellectual. He grew up a Left or Labor Zionist. He later turned to antiwar activism. He definitely did say all the stuff about Israeli apartheid, the reference to the famous Leibowitz Judeo-Nazi quote, which he didn't full-throatedly agree with, he acknowledged it was quite a loaded and controversial statement, so much as say he thought there were tendencies that were starting to develop in Israeli society. I do agree that that particular interview isn't necessary, it is cherrypicking somewhat. Also, I thought we were gathering evidence to get i24 deprecated. You can make the point in a better way. The book sources are probably better, but I couldn't check them for some reason. I'm sure, though, there's a wealth of material describing Chomsky's view in fullness on Israel. For example, he definitely said that he believed that the ] is a fiction and we already mention his 1983 book which is entirely about this topic. He's also talked in depth about people such as ] who didn't want to exploit the Holocaust to oppress others. He's talked about how the two-state solution is the only solution because a one-state solution would be a pie in the sky solution. He's called Gaza a prison. Etc. So, there's plenty that can be said about Chomsky's criticism of Israel and anti-Zionistic views as a socialist Labor Jewish anti-Zionist, his father was a Hebrew scholar, he's a dying breed but such people were once common in the world. I'm sure you can cite the higher quality material such as the books, and the JSTOR and other journal articles, and leave out some of the lighter weight TV interviews where he's just rambling on about things and you're kind of cherrypicking specific quotes that aren't too important in the scheme of understanding his views. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 10:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Andrevan}} Well for a start, refreshing specific commentary on what is actually potentially problematic, and not just the throwing of random WP guidelines and ad hominem. While I agree with most of your points, I disagree on the cherry picking part: cherry picking refers to when you are taking something out of context, while avoiding contradictory evidence. Cherry picking therefore doesn't apply to these statements, this is merely picking, as there are no contradictory statements in which he says for example that Gaza is a utopia, or in which he says Israel is genuinely a liberal democracy. Chomsky said that the Judeo-Nazi claim was a loaded statement in Israel, he did agree with it, and even said that these Judeo-Nazi tendencies in Israel are growing stronger. I24news is definitely unreliable, however, we could simply offset that problem by attribution; furthermore, there are plenty of other instances where he mentioned this, including in his 1999 Fateful Triangle book, and is in the media. ] (]) 11:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::We cannot negate our sourcing and NPOV policies by attribution. That is not how we use attribution. As nableezy concefes, Chomsky's view has been widely know for 50 years. This content did not suddenly become DUE for this mature and widely followed article.]] 17:23, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::It was always due, the idea that things were not covered so they should not be covered has zero grounding in policy or logic. Misplaced Pages is after all famously not finished. This material is due and I’ll be adding material with the sources I have found and will keep looking at. Chomskys views on Israel are not presented here, and they form a significant amount of his public advocacy. And of coverage of him. You can try to stand in the way if you want but nobody has to seek your permission for anything here, and if you want to edit war things out then that can be dealt with in the usual manner. ''']''' - 17:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I hope that what you mean to say is that you will be presenting your sources and policy-based rationales for whatever edit you propose and pursuing consensus for your suggestion on talk.]] 19:38, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::No, I meant I will be editing the article. Nobody needs your permission to edit here. ''']''' - 19:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::let's get back on track here. You're right, he didn't say Gaza was a utopia. He's anti all states, and if you read a fuller context you understand he's operating on a higher level of criticism, so it's a little out of context to just grab all the slightly anti-Israel comments he's made that have the effect to imply he wants to dismantle settler colonialism in Israel. He doesn't want to ''dismantle'' anything, he's an advocate for a policy of peace. He's on the Israeli left. He's from an older mode of left wing thinkers along the same lines of the kibbutzniks and so on, and he's fiercely critical of the West Bank settlers who are encroaching into Palestinian territory in violation of international law. He considers that Hamas favors a 2-state solution (is that still true, I wonder). As does the late ] in his article about Chomsky which acknowledges their limits and gaps, they're actually quite critical of the US. Chomsky's been quite critical of the BDS movement as well. Chomsky is very unkind to the PLO, he says they're self-destructive and suicidal, he says the Arab regimes are not decent and not popular either. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 00:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Include all that then. ''']''' - 02:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::as someone who has read chomsky closely for 55 years, the absurdly abrupt section on his views regarding the ip conflict looks rigorously like hushing.THe man happens to be the most authoritative historical voice on that conflict, deeply influential, and therefore the expansion, even if it needs some rewriting, is almost obligatory.] (]) 07:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Nish, it's not considered cool to revert war content under discussion on the talk page. And "farcical" is hardly the level of scrutiny and justification we will need to make whatever decisions ultimatly find consensus. It would be best if you'd self-revert while the discussion continues. Also, as you are surely aware, as an "historian" Chomsky is rich in opinions (some valid and thought-provoking) but lacking in rigor and academic standing.]] 16:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Historians are of several kinds, archival, descriptivists, generalists, comparativists etc. I have seen desultory challenges to Chomsky as an historian for a decade and a half, and invariably the contention is generic, that he is not professionally qualified as such. Neither was ]. Lacking in rigour and academic standing? That argument has been applied to any number of professional historians of this area, beginning with ] and ], but are not taken as invalidating their use, even if the bias on wiki is to aim these critiques at historians seen to be pro-Palestinian, in a field which is overwhelmingly dominated by scholars of an Israeli or Zionist or diasporic background. I don't get the impression Chomsky is 'rich in opinions'. What he does is annotate day by day what was said by whom and when, in what context, all the material that disappears down the memory hole or gets lost in telescoping retroactive studies. It parallels what Morris does in the archives. The latter dredges up the hidden field reportage (in those Israeli sources that are accessible) on history as it unfolded, the former tells you what was publicly reported as history unfolded (the kind of historical narrative ] excelled in), and then was forgotten. But this is not material to the point here. |
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::::::This is Chomsky's wiki bio, which must cover all relevant parts of his life and oeuvre. Since writing on the I/P conflict has engaged his critical scrutiny extensively for several decades, finding expression in major, influential studies like ''The Fateful Triangle'', the decidedly elliptical coverage of his positions before the edit now contested on the conflict struck me as odd. It now strikes me as fairly due. I've done a ce, because some of the language was pointy. I'm not happy with the description 'anti-Zionist' which is a question-begging reductionist simplification of his position as a pre-Biltmore Zionist who has stayed faithful to that ever since.] (]) 23:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The quote boxes here violate ] and need to be edited out. In context use is better, as is in text attribution where appropriate, or putting information in encyclopedic summary. ] (]) 15:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*I would like to point out that although Chomsky's views on Israel are discussed at length, they are not his primary subject area. He is primarily a linguist and secondarily a political philosopher. He is not an expert on the Middle East. He's written extensively on his views on the topic, and he's also received quite a bit of criticism on it. Even though nowadays he gets more attention for his politics, he's most notably a linguist. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 16:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*:That they are discussed at length in sources is reason to discuss them at length in our article. WEIGHT is determined on the coverage in reliable sources, not what somebody's profession is. ''']''' - 16:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Agreed, but we should focus on high quality biographical sources first and foremost. I'm not keen on all the rambly interviews being heavily relied on. For that, there is a ] article. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 16:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::Im getting a copy of "Noam Chomsky on Israel" by N. Gordon Levin, Jr, part of to draw on, along with a few other sources. ''']''' - 16:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::That'd be good. ] is another one I was eying. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 17:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::I believe that the Routledge book relates to his actual area of expertise, ] rather than his views on history and politics.]] 16:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::Well I have the chapter, and having read it no it is about his views on Israel. It is a bit dated though, so will use it for some things while using new sources along with it. ''']''' - 20:02, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Noam Chomsky|answered=yes}} |
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Fix thesis link in sidebar. Currently 404. ] (]) 20:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 00:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Bosnian Genocide Denial == |
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<s>Given Chomsky's lengthy record of public comments downplaying or outright denying the severity of the 1990s Bosnian Genocide, it is concerning that it's not covered more in-depth in this article.</s> More content regarding these comments would be much appreciated. ] (]) 00:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:I disagree per ]. I read a number of Chomsky's works and listened to his interviews, and I have never heard it mentioned even once. This is a gross exaggeration. However, the issue is mentioned in the ]. --] (]) 01:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:In particular, ]'s confuses three different statements, namely: |
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:# Chomsky has denied the Bosnian Genocide (i.e. claiming it never took place; a claim about reality) |
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:# Chomsky has denied that what happened constituted genocide (i.e. claiming it doesn't meet the definition of genocide; a claim at least partly about the meaning of words) |
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:# Chomsky has questioned whether what happened constituted genocide |
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:The two references provided in that edit clearly show 3; they do not show 2, let alone 1. |
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: So if anything regarding this is added to the article, it would have to be a statement to the effect that Chomsky is known for considering the term genocide overused, and for having used the murders in Bosnia as a ''possible'' example. ] (]) 18:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] Denial of the Bosnian Genocide's status as a genocide still constitutes the definition of Genocide Denial. A lot of genocide denial, both anonymously online and by public figures, comes in the form of questioning a genocide's status as a genocide. The Bosnian Genocide was an organized extermination campaign against Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats by the Army of Republika Srpska for the purpose of ethnically cleansing territory for Serbian control. This was a genocide, plain and simple. |
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::<s>Chomsky's claims go against the findings of both the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. Chomsky has gone on record saying that some media displaying the Bosnian Genocide is fabricated, and that Bosniak citizens could have avoided their deadly fate by just "going along" with Serbian nationalist plans of mass deportation. These comments and others are utterly atrocious, and should be pointed out more prominently in Chomsky's Misplaced Pages article.</s> |
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::<s>I think calling Chomsky a genocide denial</s> wouldn't violate ]; after all, Pol Pot is called a dictator on his Misplaced Pages article. <s>Although I have a feeling Chomsky would disagree with that position as well, given his comments on the Cambodian Genocide. It's almost as if Chomsky can't accept the fact that regimes he's sympathetic towards can commit genocide.</s> ] (]) 13:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You're going to need to provide some more substantial sourcing for these characterizations if you want to establish a consensus that the topic needs more coverage in the article. As it stands, your attempted edit improperly synthesizes claims in your source. ]] 05:11, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::You're right about that, apologies. Will try to find better sourcing in the future. ] (]) 00:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:All of this garbage has been gone through umpteen times before. Chomsky has never downplayed or denied anything in Bosnia; he simply believes the word "genocide" should be restricted to its original meaning, i.e. to describe something like the Holocaust or Rwanda. That's not genocide denial, because nothing in the Yugoslav wars meets that standard. Cambodia: I just cannot be bothered going through it yet again. You're not the slightest bit interested in the facts; you just want to add some tired smears to the article. ] (]) 22:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::You don't need to go through it again. Please refrain from ] It's not as if you're the only person holding this position here. ]] 05:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] As @] had mentioned, please refrain from directing personal attacks against me. We are both perfectly capable of discussing this topic without delving into purposefully aggressive language and tone. |
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::As defined by ] and other critical scholars who worked on the ], a genocide is a series of "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." In the ], the ] sought to eliminate ethnic ] from territories they considered to be "rightfully ];" such a goal is clearly in line with the definition set out by the United Nations and other accredited organizations. Furthermore, the ] targeted ethnic minorities within the country, such as ], ], and ]; once again, such a goal is clearly in line with the definition stated above. |
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::Although the term ''genocide'' was created to specifically refer to the Holocaust, the definition laid out by the United Nations (and the literal creator of the term ''genocide'' himself) clearly includes other crimes against humanity throughout recent history, such as the Bosnian and Cambodian Genocides. To limit the classification of genocide to just the Holocaust and Rwanda Genocide risks feeding into the final stage of genocide: denial. <s>Denial is what Chomsky is doing here, and it is a shame that the wider Misplaced Pages community does not recognize that, according to the users on this page at least.</s> ] (]) 00:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::This is OR and synthesis. Your opinions and claims about what genocide is and how they relate to what Chomsky has said about Bosnia are not relevant. To have the article claim that he is a genocide denier or has denied genocide in Bosnia you need reliable sources quoted to that effect, and if possible balanced with RS stating the contrary. ] (]) 06:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Apart from that, destroying people is not the same thing as eliminating them from a territory: the latter can be done by chasing them away. The takeaway from this sort of discussion, for me, is that the application of the term "genocide" is inherently contentious, so we should be extremely careful with its use in Misplaced Pages articles. ] (]) 12:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Is he dead? == |
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The page currently has him at "is", but with a death date; yet the article linked does not state that he has died. I don't think there's reliable sources yet stating he's died. ] (]) 18:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:I've reverted the edits by ] as the article that they cited does not state that he has died. ] (]) 18:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::The Jacobin tweet was a bit confusing, apologies. Will keep poking for a better source. ] (]) 18:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Apparently but there is no indication that he is dead. – ] (]) 18:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC) Apparently he's still recovering from the stroke he had last year? It's a little unclear to me on first read. – ] (]) 18:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Jacobin has republished their tweet and obituary but changed it to a "celebration" - seems to confirm they have no good source themselves. https://x.com/jacobin/status/1803145388821487927 ] (]) 19:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: from MedyaNews (not sure how reliable) appears to say he is recovering, so there is indeed reason to doubt. ] (] · ]) 19:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Someone claims to have spoken to Chomsky's wife over the phone to confirm he is alive: https://x.com/safbf/status/1803154724415287513 ] (]) 20:01, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Yes https://www.telesurenglish.net/noam-chomskys-wife-denies-the-writers-death/ ] (]) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:there was a tweet (no source given) and the jacobin dropped their obituary (which did not mention or provide a source for his death). it's my opinion that we needn't update the article with his death until more information comes in ] (]) 19:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::This article may need some protection as several users added it back after my initial edit. I took another look again & you are right. There is not enough confirmation. ] (]) 19:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I have submitted a request for a temporary extended confirmed protection. ] (]) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/06/the-noam-chomsky-i-knew ] (]) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::This needs more confirmation, these types of articles are written well before his death. Social media is ablaze, there will be better sources. ] (]) 19:22, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::A new article has appeared from the New Statesman saying he is dead. https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/06/the-noam-chomsky-i-knew ] (]) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Not enough, if this is confirmed larger outlets will come forward. ] (]) 19:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::] (who seemingly wrote the article) claims he knew him personally, so I would give credence to his claim. ] (] · ]) 19:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Obituaries are written in advance. Asking Varoufakis for an obituary for someone makes sense, moreover when it is a nonagenary with a recent stroke. ] (]) 19:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::The article mentions "when I heard of his passing", but I agree with you, it's not credible enough. A proper credible news source would disclose the source, i.e. "as confirmed to us by Chomsky's family". If he died, it should be in Reuters et al shortly anyway. ] (]) 19:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Someone this prolific will have bigger outlets come forth than anecdotes. ] (]) 19:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::This article has since been deleted. ] (]) 19:52, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::This has been taken down ] (]) 20:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Your first statement is abhorrent... |
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:Given the news a few days ago about Chomsky's health struggles, it seems easy hoax material. I don't think a single source considered reliable by Misplaced Pages has commented on his supposed death. ] (]) 19:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:more news articles are saying it (https://www.diariodocentrodomundo.com.br/morre-o-professor-e-ativista-noam-chomsky-aos-95-anos/amp/https://www.diariodocentrodomundo.com.br/morre-o-professor-e-ativista-noam-chomsky-aos-95-anos/amp/) but i'm still hesitant to edit until more sources come out ] (]) 19:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::More spanish news networks stating his death: |
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::https://www.continental.com.ar/internacional/murio-noam-chomsky--uno-de-los-linguistas-mas-influyentes-de-la-historia_a6671dc37abfb61e251ff8d4e |
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::https://www.vozpopuli.com/internacional/muere-noam-chomsky.html |
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::https://www.latercera.com/culto/2024/06/18/muere-el-escritor-noam-chomsky-a-los-95-anos/ ] (]) 19:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::https://www.diariodocentrodomundo.com.br/morre-o-professor-e-ativista-noam-chomsky-aos-95-anos/ ] (]) 19:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::This just cites the Jacobin article. ] (]) 19:35, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Diário do Centro do Mundo is an extremely unreliable source and was on Portuguese Misplaced Pages along with linked sites. We should wait before editing the article, and hopefully this great man can still recover from his stroke. ] (]) 19:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I don't know Continental, but Vozpopuli is not a very reliable source, as it may just copy from other outlets or tweets. ] (]) 19:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::He died stop the nonsense. ] (]) 19:45, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Where is your reliable source? ] (]) 19:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::The only thing the la Tercera article says is that international news media have reported his death which doesn't seem to be actually true. ] (]) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Until we get confirmation from the family I say leave it ] (]) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::The death was just confirmed from MIT's president. ] <sup>(] • ])</sup> 19:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Do you have a source? ] (]) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Source? ] (]) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Email sent out by ]: ] <sup>(] • ])</sup> 19:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::It's about Arvind, not Noam ] (]) 19:52, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::That's a different person? ] (]) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Where does this mention Noam Chomsky? ] (]) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::That linked email doesn't even mention Chomsky. ] (]) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::That doesn't seem to be about Chomsky ] (]) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::It says Arvind, not Noam. ] (]) 19:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Apologies, his name is Avram not Arvind. This was a mistake on my part. Sorry! ] <sup>(] • ])</sup> 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::Brazilian economist Eduardo Moreira with Chomsky's Brazilian wife and she says he is alive (though presumably recovering from his stroke). I reiterate that he Brazilian sources used are extremely unreliable and low quality. In fact, I have just checked the , and they deleted it. ] (]) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Now the rumor mill says he is alive and it was confirmed by his wife, also looking for a source for this. ] (]) 20:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::Here is an ABC reporter that says he spoke to his wife to say he is alive: https://x.com/ChrisLooftABC/status/1803154685219484125 ] (]) 20:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:OK, which one of you changed it to say he died yesterday lol ] (]) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::Someone got confused about time zones maybe?] (]) 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Note to anyone who reads down this far. According to WP:BLP and WP:NOT we are not here to report the news, we are here to summarize what is presented in verifiable sources. It doesn’t matter if he is or is not actually dead. Unless it’s hitting multiple high quality sources we don’t put it on the page. Misplaced Pages doesn’t win by being first, we win by being verifiable. ] (]) 20:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The New Statesman piece was taken down. Definitely one of the most bizarre things I've seen. ] (]) 19:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Jacobin has seemingly changed their headline to be more ambiguous (although I've not really looked into this) ] (]) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::They have, they've also republished their tweet and changed "embodied" to "has embodied" to imply he's still alive ] (]) 19:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::Can't even access the Jacobin article anymore. ] (]) 19:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I can't even get into the website! ] (]) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::The NS article has been taken down and the Jacobin web page is not even responsive. I have no clue what's happening. ] (]) 20:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:You'd hope Jacobin and the NS would have better sources than a random tweet...! ] (]) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::The "random tweet" was actually the Jacobin obituary. Though I agree that this situation is absurd and I'd expect better from Jacobin. A bizzare mistake, unless they have a secret reliable source very close to Chomsky lol. ] (]) 19:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Reliable source says alive: https://x.com/ChrisLooftABC/status/1803154685219484125 ] (]) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Wow, what a gaffe by Jacobin. ] (]) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:The New Statesman has deleted its article https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/06/the-noam-chomsky-i-knew ] (]) 20:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Also false according to an ABC News reporter who spoke with his wife. https://x.com/chrislooftabc/status/1803154685219484125?s=46 ] (]) 20:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Another primary source: https://x.com/ChrisLooftABC/status/1803154685219484125 ] (]) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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*As far as I can tell, there were a couple articles that got posted, and then when you clicked on them they disappeared. It seems to be some momentary dumbness that happened for a couple minutes. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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*:https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/noam-chomsky-gerry-adams-leads-ni-tributes-following-death-of-us-professor-and-activist/a463352391.html |
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*:Another reliable source ] (]) 20:27, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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*::That article's gone too. ] (]) 20:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Another source https://x.com/amaurigonzo/status/1803150419415150971 ] (]) 20:14, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::for good measure...! https://x.com/JoseMSantana10/status/1803152894784581709 ] (]) 20:22, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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New Statesman says he died June 18 <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)</small> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Noam Chomsky|answered=yes}} |
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Noam Chomsky appears to have died in the morning of the 18th ] (]) 19:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Read above. We're waiting for further confirmation from more reliable sources. ] (]) 19:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:See ], no confirmation from reliable sources yet. ] (]) 19:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> per above. ] (]) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Infobox image == |
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] |
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Should it be confirmed that he passed away, usually infoboxes are updated with black&white images or images of the subject during their 'peak'. This criteria has been used on actors (]), writers (]/]), artists (]), directors (]), athletes (]/]), scientists (]), comedians (]) and even political figures (]). I propose the following image to be used on his infobox once he passes away as it reflects a younger Chomsky. ] (]) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'd agree. It's a nice image of him as well. ] (]) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:While having an image of the person during their peak (or, at least, not necessarily the most recent one) is often what is done after their death, I don't think the black-and-white part is an actual criterion (see ], with her official portrait instead). ] (] · ]) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::It's usually one or the other, it could be an old image and colored like Elizabeth II ''or'' it could be black and white. I'm leaning towards this one as it's one of a younger Chomsky and it's not bad in terms of quality. ] (]) 19:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, normally when someone dies it's replaced with a recent photo with an iconic/posterity photo of them at their peak. There's no requirement for it to be black and white, just iconic - or at least, that's my understanding of it. |
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::<sub>P.S. Very cool name you got there!!</sub> ] ] 20:25, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{smalldiv|1=Thanks! ] (] · ]) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)}} |
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:Agreed, it's a good fit and consistent with other biographies of recently deceased individuals. ] (]) 20:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:I agree with adding this younger version. --] (]) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 June 2024 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Noam Chomsky|answered=y}} |
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noam chomsky died today ] (]) 20:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:No, he didn't. – ] (]) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:No evidence he is dead from credible sources. See above ] ] ] 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 June 2024 (2) == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Noam Chomsky|answered=y}} |
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Correct the year date of his stroke to 2024 per the linked news article. ] (]) 20:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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'''Per''' the linked news article the stroke happened last year. Please. |
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:"Valeria Chomsky said via email that her 95-year-old husband is in a Sao Paulo hospital, where she took him on an ambulance jet with two nurses once he could more easily travel from the United States following the June 2023 stroke." ] (]) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:My bad. Thank you for the correction! Yes clearly 2023, not later. ] (]) 20:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Hebrew IPA == |
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Why has been the Hebrew IPA taken down? He has stated himself that both English and Hebrew pronunciation of his name is correct, so in my view, it's an important thing to include. '''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''' ] (]) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Which edit was this? ] ] 20:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:: '''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''' ] (]) 20:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I've re-added the Hebrew pronounciation to the page ] ] 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I've just noticed, cheers! '''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''' ] (]) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Among some other problems throughout his life, Noam was close with former financier and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. Noam has claimed to have met with him several times after his original conviction and often gave extremely lame or bizarre responses to people on this topic such as "none of your business" or "he served his time" despite the severity of his crimes and the heinous nature. Cruetresin (talk) 02:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
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