Talk:Ahmad Zahir: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 07:03, 1 April 2021 editAFGFactChecker (talk \| contribs)305 edits →Ahmad Zahir sang a song in Russian as well.: new section← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 16:51, 29 December 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk \| contribs)Bots7,900,961 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 2 WikiProject templates. (Fix Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion
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			== Protecting Ahmad Zahir's Page ==
	{{Vital article\|level=5\|topic=People\|subpage=Musicians\|class=Start}}

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	Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 02:41, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

	== Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion ==
	The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:
	* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion \| 2018-09-16T21:41:46.415697 \| Ahmad Zaher.jpg -->
	* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion \| 2018-09-16T21:41:46.415697 \| Portrait of Ahmad Zahir.jpg -->
	Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 21:41, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

	== Ethnic background ==

	I've restored the reference to him being Pashtun, based on the statement in a ] that "He was an ethnic Pashtun, but most of his songs are in Dari or Persian." () If there are other reliable sources with contrary views, then we should consider them. It's difficult to assess how much weight we should give to the book you cite. Are there any other non-primary sources you can point to? ] (]) 18:47, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

	:Yes, there are but the problem is that none of them are in English. On top of that all the articles done by the BBC in English as well as Persian make absolutely no reference to him being an ethnic Pashtun. As I said, we even have a video statement in Persian from his close friend and biographer Safiullah Sabat stating him to be an ethnic Tajik born in Kabul with origins from Laghman <ref> Biographer and Close Friend استاد صفی الله ثبات (in Persian) via https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_rheRt3_AQ</ref>. What you posted to be a reliable source isn't one since there is no reference or source in that reference from someone who actually personally knew him and his family supporting the claim of him being Pashtun in the article whereas the book source I posted is from a contemporary of his father and a noted historian <ref>Mohammad Sediq Farhang. خاطرات میر محمد صدیق فرهنگ (2016 ed.). shahmbookco. p. 363 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWPXiQzWkAEavcH?format=jpg&name=large</ref>. What's so difficult to assess about that and how would that not be solid and reliable proof? I can translate the source if necccesary.] (]) 18:55, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}

	::As I mentioned in the edit summary, arguing over Zahir's ethnicity is not useful for the sake of this page, and it is certainly not an encyclopedic way of presenting the information. His ethnicity is only relevant to those for whom ethnic politics in the country are relevant, and this type of dispute has no place on Misplaced Pages. If you disagree with my edit and wish to re-impose your personal preference on the topic, please discuss it here, as that is the point of the talk page. Do not repeatedly revert and reassert your personal views. ] (]) 00:49, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

	:::It is not my personal view Mr Daivd. What is so difficult for you to understand that we have actual valid sources from a book written by contemporary of his father (the historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang) as well as video clips from his close friend and oral biographer Safiullah Sabat stating his father and him to be ethnic Tajiks? How on earth is that not encyclopedic? Almost every page on Misplaced Pages regarding figures from Afghanistan includes their ethnicity, I myself have even added an ethnic background to some singers such as Farhad Darya, Aryana Saed, and Naim Popal who previously did not have their Pashtun ethnicity written on their page and I included them as Pashtun. You should at the very least be consistent with your flawed logic.] (]) 01:18, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

	::::{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} I have reverted your most recent edits to the article because you did not cite any sources in your edits. You '''must''' engage in discussion here and may not change the article until consensus is reached here. —''']''' (]) 14:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

	:::::That is blatantly false, I did cite sources in my edit, take a look <ref>Mohammad Sediq Farhang. خاطرات میر محمد صدیق فرهنگ (2016 ed.). shahmbookco. p. 363 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWPXiQzWkAEavcH?format=jpg&name=large {{para\|trans-quote "Doctor Zaher who was from the Tajiks of Laghman.."}} </ref><ref>
	Biographer and Close Friend استاد صفی الله ثبات (in Persian) via https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_rheRt3_AQ</ref>. I have been trying to engage in discussion but nobody seems to be able to be willing to engage in a serious discussion. ] (]) 15:23, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}
	::::::Neither of those sources were present in your edit. —''']''' (]) 16:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
	::::::The video has been taken down on copyright grounds, so there is no way to verify the video. However, the publisher, Informational Video, has no other content nor a description of itself, so the video would not pass ]. The image from the book is not machine-readable, so I can't attempt to machine-translate it. That'll be dependent on an editor who can read Persian. —''']''' (]) 16:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

			] Thanks for continuing to revert the never ending vandalism to this page. I think it would make sense and be in everyone's best interest to protect this page again. We had a 1 month auto-confirmed or confirmed access protection on here from 18 May to 18 June. As you can see, since it's expired it has been back to the regular nonsensical vandalism. What are your thoughts on placing a similar protection status again (with a longer term) or an even higher level of protection on the page? ] (]) 01:14, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
	That's because they were included in previous edits and weren't deleted by the other user so there was no need to include sources twice. I had no idea about the video being taken down. There are other platforms such as Facebook that contain the same video content so would it be okay if I posted that? Is machine-readable images a requirement for cited book references? if so how would I go about doing that? Like you said the source would definitely be easily verifiable by an editor that can read Persian.
	] (]) 21:54, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} As a general rule, videos hosted at Facebook are not reliable—or, they're only as reliable as the page that hosts them and produces them. —''']''' (]) 23:13, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
	Oh ok thank you for the explanation, I'll post the link to the Facebook video here on the talk page from two different pages, and if agreed as reliable (which I don't see why it wouldn't be), I'll post it along with the book reference I had already included. ] (]) 23:23, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

	:One of the Facebook accounts is for a musician; that account is clearly not reliable. The other one...it's not verified, so I'm dubious about it. —''']''' (]) 02:22, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

			{{re\|C.Fred}} Thanks for protecting this page! ] (]) 02:54, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
	Why would it being verified matter or not if the content shared is from a reliable source i.e a video of his closest friend (Safiuallah Sabat صفی الله ثبات) giving a biographical account? As long as the video and source are authentic and reliable why the platform/media through which it's being shared be relevant? He's even been on Tolo News which is one of Afghanistan's biggest and most reliable news networks to discuss his life <ref name="safiullah-sobat">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3TjOMoH7OE&t=527s</ref> as well as on a TV show to do a short mini-documentary on his life <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBzECSaJ62E&t=36s</ref> <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X4HmrEEjCg</ref>. You can't get more reliable of a source than that. Keep in mind this is all in addition to the cited book reference from his father's contemporary and professional historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang (محمد صدیق فرهنگ). ] (]) 02:51, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	:How do we know this video is of his closest friend? The videos on the Bahar TV-AF account might require more investigation; that might be a television production house (in which case, thanks to them for releasing the video on YouTube). —''']''' (]) 03:00, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	What do you mean? He's been on Tolo News as well as many other programs to discuss his life and was lifelong friends with him from youth until he passed away even living in the same living quarters as him for a long time. It doesn't get more authoritative than that <ref>https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=saved&v=647879979458030</ref><ref> Skip to Minute 7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3TjOMoH7OE&t=527s</ref> <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X4HmrEEjCg</ref>. All this confusion can be solved by simply having someone knowledgeable in Persian watch and read the sources I've cited multiple times. It's impossible to find a more reliable source about his background than for a cited book written by a historian and contemporary of his father as well as video reports from his closest friend. ] (]) 03:07, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	:How do we know he's been on Tolo News? Unless Tolo News posts the video, we take any other YouTube channel with a grain of salt. (Videos can be manipulated.) —''']''' (]) 03:24, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	That channel is literally a program show of Tolo i.e the equivalent of the Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC or Tucker Carlson on Fox. Like you admittedly mentioned that video I originally posted even got taken down via copyright by Tolo since it wasn't produced by their channel i.e this <ref>Skip to Minute 7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3TjOMoH7OE&t=527s</ref>. If possible please find someone who is knowledgeable in Persian and Afghanistan to resolve this dispute.] (]) 03:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	:Persian-language skills would help verify the book mentioned earlier. As for the videos, this is a matter where Misplaced Pages policies on copyrights and reliable sources must be followed, and those issues overshadow the language one. —''']''' (]) 12:39, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	The videos linked haven't been taken down for copyright, unlike the original link I had posted so I don't see where the issue would be with that and why wouldn't the videos not be considered reliable sources considering everything mentioned above? They are from a reliable source i.e a close longtime friend and published by Tolo among other outlets. ] (]) 19:44, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
	:: {{re\|AFGFactChecker}} Sources in textual form can be translated into English and ]. I have verified that man in that video above<ref name="safiullah-sobat"/> is indeed his close friend (his name is Safiullah Sobat<ref></ref>) but the rest of claims are hard to verify. YT isn't ]-abiding in this case. Please, provide sources in English or if you can't, please make an effort to translate (textual) sources by yourself (per ]): {{t\|cite}} the source with {{para\|trans-quote}} param for that.
	{{reflist-talk}}
	::: I'll definitely make sure to translate the book reference from his fathers contemporary and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang regarding their family background but why wouldn't the videos from FB and YT be considered verified reliable sources considering you've confirmed what I've been saying all along via an English article that he is his closest friend? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:29, 26 March 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::: {{re\|AFGFactChecker}} You also may opt to translate a quote, rather than a full source.
	:::: {{re\|AFGFactChecker}} {{tq\|i=1\|q=1\|... why wouldn't the videos from FB and YT be considered ... reliable source }} General consensus is such that YT/FB videos aren't considered secondary sources (]) in most cases and in yours - in particular (assuming we are proving ethnicity). Using them you risk breaching ] (original research) policy. Take a look at following topics to get the point:
	::::* ] - Part of ] policy
	::::* ] - The same
	::::* ]
	::::* ] --<span style="font-size: small" >] ] ]</span> 07:48, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
	Wouldn't it be considered a primary source since it is coming from his closest friend Safiullah Sobat? If the problem is the platform i.e Facebook or Youtube, then what would be considered an acceptable platform through which to post videos. Btw I've seen a lot of YT videos posted throughout Misplaced Pages so this doesn't seem to be a very strict rule if there is consensus regarding it. Even this very article currently includes a FB link as well as YT if you check the reference section. ] (]) 08:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} If it's a primary source from Sobat, then it would only be valid for statements about Sobat. Further, how can we back up the assertion that Sobat is Zahir's closest friend? That argument doesn't hold water. —''']''' (]) 18:57, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re\|C.Fred}} Under that logic, this page and most pages wouldn't even exist since none of the information comes directly from Ahmad Zahir himself. Another user literally verified what I've been saying all along via an English source that he is Zahir's close friend. Once again to repeat if someone who actually knows Persian would watch the videos including the Tolo segment they could easily verify that he was Zahirs friend for 22 years until the day he died. To give an analogy trying to deny this is like the equivalent of saying we can't back up the assertion that MLK and and Ralph Abernathy were close friends. The only difference between these two cases being Zahir and Sobat not being Western English speakers. Once again, please find somebody actually knowledgeable in Persian and Afghanistan.] (]) 22:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
	::{{re\|\|AFGFactChecker}} You misunderstand. Most pages exist because they are based on ], independent of the subject of the article. The claims of the subject's best friend don't hold water—besides, we'd need a secondary source to support the claim that he is the subject's friend. —''']''' (]) 00:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re\|C.Fred}} How on earth would they not hold water? In addition to the primary sources themselves I've literally sent countless secondary sources verifying that he's his close friend of 22 years and another user even further verified it using an English article but yet you keep on bringing up this baseless point over and over again. Scroll up on the page in case you missed it. Is your standard that you want Ahmad Zahir himself to come back from the dead and confirm it to you in person in perfect American English? Once again I beg you to find someone knowledgeable in Persian or Afghanistan because I'm apparently not doing a good job at explaining things. ] (]) 01:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} I guess it's technically countless sources, if I can't count any secondary sources on the page, nor see where anybody endorsed your claim. —''']''' (]) 02:01, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{od\|:}}
	:{{re\|C.Fred}} Did you scroll up? User Alexander Davronov wrote this (This is in addition to the Tolo Program along with all the other Persian sources I posted)
	''"@AFGFactChecker: Sources in textual form can be translated into English and WP:VERIFIED. I have verified that man in that video above is indeed his close friend (his name is Safiullah Sobat)"''
	] (]) 02:31, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re\|C.Fred}} I provided the source that proves the friendship: {{diff2\|1014467904\|1014411424\|Revision as of 07:48, March 27, 2021}}
	:{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} You may use colons to intend your replies: ] --<span style="font-size: small" >] ] ]</span> 10:30, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} I didn't see an independent source in that diff. Please provide a specific link in your next reply (no need to enclose it in ref tags). —''']''' (]) 13:11, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::: {{re\|C.Fred}} That revision is wrong. The link is the following: --<span style="font-size: small" >] ] ]</span> 14:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::::{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} And that source says "Zahir -- an ethnic Pashtun..." <s>Do I take it that you want a statement to that effect added to the article?</s> —''']''' (]) 15:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC) <small>amended 16:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)</small>
	::::: {{re\|C.Fred}} Well.., look. I'm a different user here: {{u\|Alexander Davronov}} not the {{u\|AFGFactChecker}} (check out the history). I came across this conversation after visiting ] board. I took an effort in providing source in English as I witnessed nobody cared enough to do that. Feel free to do whatever you feel the best. Regards --<span style="font-size: small" >] ] ]</span> 16:15, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::::: {{re\|Alexander Davronov}} Sorry about that. Thank you for providing the source.
	:::::: {{re\|AFGFactChecker}} The source provided by Alexander Davronov is in a reliable secondary source and says he's ethnic Pashtun. We'll need sources of similar or better quality to show something different for the ethnicity. That doesn't include statements by his best friend, but it would include a biography written with contributions from him, provided it's published by a reputable publisher. —''']''' (]) 16:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re\|C.Fred}} How on earth would a primary source from his best friend (in video format and thank you for stopping the denial of their relationship once you got an English source even though I had posted several in Persian) not be a quality source? The source that was provided correctly defines their relationship but provides absolutely no reference for the claim of him being Pashtun i.e in the form of a direct quote from a friend or family member and is evidence of how secondary sources aren't infallible specifically when they'e written in English regarding a forgien topic (Afghanistan). Like I said earlier though even every article published by the BBC in English makes no reference to him being an ethnic Pashtun <ref>https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20181206-ahmad-zahir-the-enduring-appeal-of-the-afghan-elvis</ref>. Every primary source in Persian i.e video biography from his best friend Safiuallah Sobat and book reference from his fathers contemporary and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang stating them to be ethnic Tajiks is the highest quality source we have available <ref>Mohammad Sediq Farhang. خاطرات میر محمد صدیق فرهنگ (2016 ed.). shahmbookco. p. 363 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWPXiQzWkAEavcH?format=jpg&name=large {{para\|trans-quote "Doctor Zaher who was from the Tajiks of Laghman.."}}</ref><ref>https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=saved&v=647879979458030</ref> unless Ahmad Zahir himself came back from the dead and stated it to you in perfect American English. ] (]) 21:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::{{re\|AFGFactChecker}} Because it is a primary source: there is no editorial review, no pre-publication editing. As for the biography by Farhang, I can't vet that, because you've sent a photocopy of a page from the book. Somebody with access to the book would have to verify it. —''']''' (]) 21:44, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	{{re\|C.Fred}} Ok so clearly this back and forth between us is getting us nowhere and so for the sake of not wanting to further waste more of either of our times on this I'm willing to permanently keep the article as is with no reference at all to his ethnic background until somebody with knowledge of Afghanistan and Persian can help arbitrate this dispute on sources. Best regards. ] (]) 21:54, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

	{{re\|C.Fred}} I ended up finding an additional reliable source (once again in Persian though) from a program/documentary on Tolo Tv's official Youtube channel stating Ahmad Zahir to be from the Tajiks of Laghman <ref> Tolo Tv 1:27 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVMTdPwdF4o&t=150s</ref> in addition to the previous 2 references of Safiuallah Sobat and Mohammad Sediq Farhang, would this suffice to allow me to include his Tajik background in the article? If not ignore this message and like I said before until someone else with knowledge of Persian and Afghanistan can arbitrate we can keep the article permanently as-is. ] (]) 04:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

	:{{re\|~~AFGFactChecker~~}} If ~~there~~ ~~are~~ ~~conflicting~~ ~~repoarts~~ ~~about~~ ~~his~~ ~~ethnicity,~~ ~~then~~ I ~~think~~ ~~that~~ ~~{{u\|Revirvlkodlaku}}~~ ~~may~~ ~~have~~ the ~~best~~ ~~suggestion~~ of ~~what~~ to ~~do:~~ ~~omit it entirely~~. ~~—'''~~]~~'''~~ (]) 18:58, 30 March ~~2021~~ (UTC)		{{re\|C.Fred}} Can we get this page protected again? Ever since the protection expired, it's been back to the usual vandalism and unsourced changes being made. ] (]) 17:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
	::{{u\|Revirvlkodlaku}}, {{u\|C.Fred}}, {{u\|AFGFactChecker}}, I agree. Given the conflicting sources, best to just leave ethnicity out. ] (]) 19:08, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
	{{re\|C.Fred}}{{re\|BubbaJoe123456}} Well I disagree about the conflicting sources since every reliable source in Persian states him to be an Ethnic Tajik (The Tolo Tv documentary, close friend Safiuallah Sobat, his fathers contemporary, and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang) and even in English every article by BBC English makes no mention of him having a Pashtun ethnicity. The only English sources that do mention that provide no reference in the form of a source or direct quote from a family member or friend so it can be regarded as a typical foreigner mistake considering how many credible sources we have in Persian. That being said I'm more than willing to agree to keep this page as-is with no mention of his ethnicity at all if it means not having to go back and forth on this. ] (]) 21:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

			{{re\|C.Fred}} Over the last few months since the page protection has been lifted, it's back to the usual vandalism of this page. Can we get this page protected again? ] (]) 03:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
	== Ahmad Zahir sang a song in Russian as well. ==

			== Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion ==
	Note I wasn't the one that added it initially but I researched it and it ended up being true.
			The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
	Here's the source. <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ufuu2Cfjrw</ref> ] (]) 07:03, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
			* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy \| 2022-07-11T19:08:19.122927 \| Abdul Zahir and son Ahmed Zahir.png -->
			* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy \| 2022-07-11T19:08:19.122927 \| Ahmad Zahir.png -->
			You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —] (]) 19:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

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Protecting Ahmad Zahir's Page

C.Fred Thanks for continuing to revert the never ending vandalism to this page. I think it would make sense and be in everyone's best interest to protect this page again. We had a 1 month auto-confirmed or confirmed access protection on here from 18 May to 18 June. As you can see, since it's expired it has been back to the regular nonsensical vandalism. What are your thoughts on placing a similar protection status again (with a longer term) or an even higher level of protection on the page? WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Thanks for protecting this page! WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 02:54, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Can we get this page protected again? Ever since the protection expired, it's been back to the usual vandalism and unsourced changes being made. WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 17:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Over the last few months since the page protection has been lifted, it's back to the usual vandalism of this page. Can we get this page protected again? WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 03:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

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You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

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