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== Materials by Nazi ministry of propaganda == |
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==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment== |
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] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-01-07">7 January 2019</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-02-24">24 February 2019</span>. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. |
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{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 04:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}} |
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== We should discuss the word alliance here == |
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Some sources refer to this as alliance. Of course, this is not universally accepted, but I think we should note the fact that the word 'alliance' has been used to describe it (we can of course discuss why this is not fully correct, etc.). For a sample source, just look at the title of this book: {{cite book|author=Roger Moorhouse|title=The Devils' Alliance: Hitler's Pact with Stalin, 1939-1941|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Xv5sAwAAQBAJ|date=21 August 2014|publisher=Random House|isbn=978-1-4481-0471-0}} (again, the book has generated it's share of controversy, but as a source that uses the term 'alliance' in this context it should not be problematic). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 07:20, 10 June 2018 |
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(UTC) |
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:I think, the word "alliance" is no less allegory than "devils". If it was an alliance, why Britain and France did not declare war on the USSR after invasion of Poland? Why there were no military support of the USSR by Germany during the Winter war, why Hitler considered occupation of the Baltic states by the USSR as a hostile act?--] (]) 22:07, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:Oh yes, I agree, this must be included. It was ''in fact'' an alliance, this is the essence of the Pact. And BTW, "Devils' Alliance" does not meant that participants are ]s, you are wrong about it, Paul. ] (]) 22:54, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::In English, "devils' alliance" means "an alliance of devils". If "devils" refers to an alliance, not to the participants, the alliance is called a "diabolic alliance". |
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::However, I agree that ''one historical school'' considers MRP an alliance, and that can and should be discussed. I'll think about that.--] (]) 23:40, 10 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Hmm... Stalin said: "The Devil's on my side, he's a good Communist." . He said. ] (]) 02:21, 11 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::Do you propose us to rely on ''primary sources''?--] (]) 02:52, 11 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::I am not saying the term alliance is correct. My point is, it is a term that is occasionally used, and we should say so. Since I indeed lean towards agreeing with Paul that use is incorrect, I'd also support discussing this term in its own section which would explain why the term alliance is incorrect. Paul, would you like to take a stab at stubbing such a section? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 09:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, I am thinking about that, but I am not sure I can do it right now. I need to refresh my memory and to read some sources.--] (]) 12:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::::{{u|Paul Siebert}}, I'd like to revisit this. Do you have any thoughts? For now, from our current references: 1) Roger, Moorhouse. The devils' alliance: Hitler's pact with Stalin, 1939-41 - the term is used in the very title 2) "See Secret in Accord: Dr. Harper Says Stalin-Hitler Pact May Prove an Alliance". New York Times - granted, it's 1939 journalism, but it is already cited here. And few other refs: 1) {{cite book|author=Geoffrey Roberts|title=The Unholy Alliance: Stalin's Pact with Hitler|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=OupmAAAAMAAJ|year=1989|publisher=Tauris|isbn=978-1-85043-127-5}} - uncited 2) "not only rapacious Nazi Germany but also Stalin's “peace-loving” empire very much benefited from the alliance with the other Devil" "the Russians were prepared to stand by their new alliance with Germany For the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was much" 5) not sure if this is self-published "Soviet-German conflictive alliance (1939–1941)" 6) "(1939−1941) the German-Soviet alliance was politically" 7) "The rather abrupt termination of the Soviet-German alliance in 1941 " 8) " the original Soviet–German alliance recorded in the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact" 9) " variety of explanations for the developing Nazi-Soviet alliance in the summer and fall of 1939" 10) " 'A cruel romance': the Nazi-Soviet alliance and Soviet expansion...' (chapter or figure title?) 11) https://www.jstor.org/stable/2145392?casa_token=tB0Io1gZevAAAAAA:xhTxCPLbrothYWsCiL9mhuqA4nE5ydJz3ZZKMGx_NKHoDMAeie-A6tMxnRIW_1jez5Q_LfWhskD5vyHJ8xl7g2-G2uUuqPqauw2cletkMRLOPJWc1d0 "from the break of the Nazi-Soviet alliance to 1948 " 12) "the period of the Nazi-Soviet Alliance" 13) " In view of the Nazi-Soviet alliance the resettlement was" 14) "The German-Soviet alliance of 1939 made an impact on Australian political life" . There are more than those. The point is that our article should simply say that such a term is sometimes used. Bonus if we can find sources discussing whether this term is correct or not (I found one that explicitly criticized it: "Gorodetsky shows that there was no Nazi-Soviet "alliance" between 1939 and 1941, only a marriage of convenience based on short term territorial advantages and security.") |
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The article includes statements by Nazi ministry of propaganda, e.g. accusing USSR of agression which makes Nazi & their allies invasion a preventive action. These claims were found false in Nuremberg trials with a lot of evidence to support this ruling. The trial materials are open. No word of that. Also critical details are omitted. For example, the territories USSR took from Poland were Russian territories occupied by Poland 20 years prior, right after Soviet Russia granted intependance to Poland. Also what was the official state ideology in Poland of the time? It was Nazism. Poland was the first coutry in Europe to sign a pact with Nazi Germany. Any word of that? No. That's your typical Misplaced Pages "freedom": whitewashing Nazi is all fine, telling truth about USSR is a no-no. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:34, 13 February 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Do you have a source for your claim that Nazism was the official state ideology in Poland in 1939? ] (]) 13:39, 14 February 2022 (UTC) |
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The term "alliance" is out of place here -- even if it appears in documents signed by the parties. An alliance involves common purposes, common goals, parties acting in concert, etc. The goal(s) of the two parties here did not involve them acting together in unison. The purpose was to (temporarily) keep the two parties from warring with each other...while each one picked up smaller territories that were available given the collapse of the continental balance of power. Two vultures feasting on carrion at the same time are not "allies" -- even if they have a tacit understanding not to peck each other while doing it. If anything -- this is Nazi Germany offering a payoff for non-action by the USSR. Chesspride ] (]) 17:59, 23 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:Read up speeches by Pilsudsky compare to those by Goebbels or Schicklgruber. Try to find a difference. Crushing subhumans in the East was their dearest dream. Per secret protocols to Polish-Nazi pact Poland occupied part of Czechoslovakia along the German Nazi. With blessing from UK and France i might add, but it's a different story of British royal family posing with Nazi salutes, etc. Also Poland started solving the "Jew question" prior German Nazi invasion. They might not have the word "duck" in the documents, yet they looked like duck, flied like duck and sounded like one. Yet, as i said, whitwashing Nazism is all fine on Misplaced Pages, so that's no evidence, right? :) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:29, 14 February 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== the Soviet Union invision was on the 17th of september == |
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::Ah yes, I ask for proof that Poland was a Nazi state and your only response is to refer to some speech by someone who died four years before World War II even began. Excellent. Not much point in wasting more time here, but I will point out the hilarity in your comment about the British royal family supposedly posing with Nazi salutes, when there are ''actual'' photos of Soviet military personnel parading with their Nazi cobelligerents in Brest-Litovsk after their joint invasion of the country in 1939. Carry on. ] (]) 18:33, 14 February 2022 (UTC) |
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That implies Fall Weiss was the joint invasion which is obviously not true. Fall Weiss was an exclusively German plan, and the USSR was not informed about its details (even about the start date). In 8 September, Ribbentrop send a telegram to Stalin where he was asking what the Soviet plan to do with "their" part of Poland. That means no previous agreement existed on that account. Ribbentrop was event threatening that if the USSR would not take Eastern Poland under its control, Germany would have to do that by itself. All of that was a demonstration that no joint invasion occurred.] (]) 07:37, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::Has anything changed in Polish politics after Pilsudsky died? Nope. They kept hunting down communits and other disagreement. Like the Nazi. But Nazi supporters won't see that, it was all fine. Besides, i listed 5 points. You "reject" one. Great example of typical partial blindness, thank you. Re British royal family - even BBC had to report it and and queen Elizabeth II confirmed it was true. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33578174 Can you show anyting similar for the ''joint parade'' fake? And how come the "joint invasion" was 2,5 weeks apart? When Poland and Nazi Germany jointly invaded Czechoslovakia there was no delay.<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 02:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::Nazi Poland invaded democratic Czechoslovakia with help of Nazi Germany. That is how WW 2 started in Europe. Than Nazi Germany invaded Nazi Poland. ] (]) 02:32, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
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::::This is literal Soviet and now Russian propaganda. Lol. ] (]) 01:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Systematic Lying in this article == |
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The Polish armed forces hoped to hold out long enough so that an offensive could be mounted against Germany in the west, but on September 17 Soviet forces invaded from the east and all hope was lost. The next day, Poland’s government and military leaders fled the country. On September 28, the Warsaw garrison finally surrendered to a relentless German siege. That day, Germany and the USSR concluded an agreement outlining their zones of occupation. For the fourth time in its history, Poland was partitioned by its more powerful neighbors.] (]) 07:37, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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I love how many lies there are in this article solely for left wing political reasons. For example, this article falsely claims the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact did not result in an alliance. It provably did, evidenced by the immediate and massive increase in war materiel sent to the Nazis by the Soviets after the pact signed. Why do we lie that they weren’t in alliance, and cite random personal novels to support this claim? |
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https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germans-invade-poland |
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Do editors here think that people, not far right conservatives or far leftists, don’t see what you’re all doing? It’s overwhelmingly clear that you always tilt the narrative towards left wing interpretations that are almost invariably factually incorrect. ] (]) 19:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== Hermann Rauschning: Hitler Speaks == |
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]'s book ''Hitler Speaks'', is a fake. See for example ], ''Hitler, 1889–1936'', p. xiv; ], p. 1162; Henning Köhler, ''Deutschland auf dem Weg zu sich selbst. Eine Jahrhundertgeschichte.'', Stuttgart 2002, p. 338. It is not citeable, the sentence quoted in the article is not authentic. ] (]) 14:25, 19 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:It turns out that the USSR was an ally of Germany, and Great Britain and the USA were allies of the USSR, which means they were all in the Axis ? Or let's talk about how the Central Bank of England admitted that before World War II it helped the Third Reich sell gold that was stolen in Czechoslovakia on the European market? https://www.bbc.com/news/business-23513654 . Or how Poland, in alliance with Hitler, took away the territories of Czechoslovakia and Lithuania? Or how did neutral European countries, like Sweden, supply resources to the Third Reich until the end of World War II? It becomes very uncomfortable when you start to learn uncomfortable facts. Regarding the trade between the USSR and Germany, let me remind you that the USSR was a state that on its shoulders bore the burden of the deprivations of the First World War, the Civil War, and monstrous devastation, the USSR needed to increase the number of machine tools, technologies and equipment on the eve of the inevitable war with Germany, but reading the opinions of modern sofa historians, it seems that you all would like the USSR to lose that terrible war, but then there would be no one here to write your perverted history ... ] (]) 17:20, 15 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:Added a book by Ian Kershaw to replace it.] (]) 14:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC) |
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::There's no need to be insulting; Misplaced Pages editors (and professional historians) are far from a monolith, politically or otherwise. It's unclear from your comments if you feel there are changes needed to this article; if so, some specifics would be helpful. -- ] (]) 00:24, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::Which country invaded Poland in September 1939 along with Nazi Germany? Was it the US, UK, or Germany? Oh that's right, it was the USSR. Funny how countries that are involved in an invasion of a third country are generally considered allies. ] (]) 22:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'm not sure there was any particular political agenda behind the article describing the pact as not an alliance. That assertion was sourced to a journal article. It's entirely possible someone read that article, found it interesting, and added details from it to this article. It's certainly true that opinions may differ about what are the best words to describe the pact. It would be more helpful to find sources that ''do'' call the pact an alliance and note the difference of opinion, than to insult the entire community of Misplaced Pages editors and call them biased for an addition by one editor presumably made in good faith. Another editor has since removed the assertion from the intro, so it seems there's no further action to be taken. -- ] (]) 00:22, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Bad edit and no citation. == |
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== Soviet troops in Poland == |
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@] Regardin this edit I think it's still worth having this information in the article, possibly more clearly described - it's now a permanent trope in Russian propaganda that "Poland refused Soviet help and this is why it was invaded by Hitler". The fact that "Soviet help" was equivalent to Soviet occupation is conveniently skipped in these narratives. ] (]) 08:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC) |
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Under the 'Soviet–German relations' section, 3rd point "Summer deterioration of relations," the penultimate paragraph is: |
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:Agree the Poles blocked any crossing of their border by Soviet armies. HOWEVER what I deleted was a misleading news story to the effect that Stalin was "prepared to move more than a million Soviet troops" against Germany. There was a draft memo to that effect in the Russian archives. BUT the news story quotes historian Donald Cameron Watt showing that the Soviets never told the British or French that. So the "million troops" offer never happened. ] (]) 10:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== The entire second paragraph of 'Beginning of secret talks' is at best superfluous == |
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In the United States, "The leftists, of course, included the Communist Party, which during the 1939–1941 era of the Nazi-Soviet pact, was slavish in its effort to appease Hitler and sabotage the Allied cause and American preparedness. Their soul mate in Congress was Vito Marcantonio of New York's American Labor Party. Despite opposition from the left and the right, American aid continued to make a short war unlikely. |
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The pomp and circumstance of the diplomatic meeting is not relevant. The fourth paragraph is also irrelevant to the topic. I recommend complete removal of the 4th paragraph, and rewriting the 2nd paragraph in a less florid, more simple 'stating the facts' manner, as is done for e.g.: |
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Not only is this hasty or unfinished, but it lacks a citation, and a quick google search did not find any threads to where this came from. Just wanted to point this out. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Minsk_agreements ] (]) 11:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== maps == |
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== Soviet war with Finland and Katyn massacre == |
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I suggest to add maps that show the division of territories under the pact and the division as it turned our after Gergmany conquered Poland. ] (]) 22:47, 2 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The subsection 'Soviet war with Finland and Katyn massacre' combines the two subjects as if they're related, although there is little or no thematic or geographic connection between them. Unless anyone objects, I would like to split that subsection into two. (The same goes possibly for other subsections in that section, too.) -- ] (]) 12:59, 23 August 2020 (UTC) |
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The article includes statements by Nazi ministry of propaganda, e.g. accusing USSR of agression which makes Nazi & their allies invasion a preventive action. These claims were found false in Nuremberg trials with a lot of evidence to support this ruling. The trial materials are open. No word of that. Also critical details are omitted. For example, the territories USSR took from Poland were Russian territories occupied by Poland 20 years prior, right after Soviet Russia granted intependance to Poland. Also what was the official state ideology in Poland of the time? It was Nazism. Poland was the first coutry in Europe to sign a pact with Nazi Germany. Any word of that? No. That's your typical Misplaced Pages "freedom": whitewashing Nazi is all fine, telling truth about USSR is a no-no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.104.199.51 (talk) 15:34, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I love how many lies there are in this article solely for left wing political reasons. For example, this article falsely claims the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact did not result in an alliance. It provably did, evidenced by the immediate and massive increase in war materiel sent to the Nazis by the Soviets after the pact signed. Why do we lie that they weren’t in alliance, and cite random personal novels to support this claim?
Do editors here think that people, not far right conservatives or far leftists, don’t see what you’re all doing? It’s overwhelmingly clear that you always tilt the narrative towards left wing interpretations that are almost invariably factually incorrect. 2600:1700:FC80:1CC0:40F8:72C:CF4B:C797 (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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