| Revision as of 18:44, 18 May 2023 editTrade (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,163 edits →Ideology← Previous edit |
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|text = The Proud Boys have a history of self-published claims that often contradict independent reliable sources. As per the ''']''' and ''']''', these statements should be mentioned, but attributed in-text to the group and be within the context of coverage from reliable sources. Be careful not to ] to the Proud Boys' statements, especially when they conflict with reliable sources. |
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|text = The Proud Boys have a history of self-published claims that often contradict independent reliable sources. As per the ''']''' and ''']''', these statements should be mentioned, but attributed in-text to the group and be within the context of coverage from reliable sources. Be careful not to ] to the Proud Boys' statements, especially when they conflict with reliable sources. |
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{{Top 25 Report|Sep 27 2020|Oct 4 2020}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Park |first1=Meadhbh |editor1-last=Carian |editor1-first=Emily K. |editor2-last=DiBranco |editor2-first=Alex |editor3-last=Ebin |editor3-first=Chelsea |title=Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right |date=2022 |publisher=Routledge |location=London |isbn=978-1-0005-7622-1 |doi=10.4324/9781003164722 |chapter=Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Stern |first1=Alexandra Minna |author1-link=Alexandra Minna Stern |title=Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination |date=2019 |publisher=Beacon Press |location=Boston |isbn=978-0-8070-6336-1}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Park |first1=Meadhbh |editor1-last=Carian |editor1-first=Emily K. |editor2-last=DiBranco |editor2-first=Alex |editor3-last=Ebin |editor3-first=Chelsea |title=Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right |date=2022 |publisher=Routledge |location=Abingdon, England |isbn=978-1-0005-7622-1 |doi=10.4324/9781003164722 |chapter=Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2024 == |
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== Certainly a far-right neo-fascist hate group, but "white nationalist" doesn't really fit == |
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{{atop|Enough. This has devolved into throwing accusations at other editors. If you have a specific edit you wish to suggest for the article, make a new section. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:34, 13 March 2023 (UTC)}} |
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The group is led by Enrique Tarrio, an Afro-Cuban, who says "I'm pretty brown, I'm Cuban. There's nothing white supremacist about me." ] (]) 21:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
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:See ] and . ] ] 21:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Certainly that is one theory of why Tarrio is in bed with so many white nationalists. Another is that he willing to join forces with white nationalists (with whom he disagrees) in what he views as a more important fight against socialism. ] (]) 22:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC) |
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The Proud Boys was founded as a fraternity that supports the American Republic. Proud Boys support the American Capitalist ideology. Proud Boys have been deemed as Fascist, this is incorrect. ] (]) 18:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ] 18:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I think I saw something about Proud Boys saying they think Tarrio is just a front to make them look better. ] (]) 13:52, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::How does one provide a source contrary to an intangible and subjective viewpoint? ] (]) 18:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::If you'd read that link to our reliable sources policy, that would clear it up. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Symbolism == |
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:The article should describe them the way reliable sources do. For example, the ADL says, "The Proud Boys are a right-wing extremist group with a violent agenda. They are primarily misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration. Some members espouse white supremacist and antisemitic ideologies and/or engage with white supremacist groups." The SPLC calls them a "General Hate" group, not easily categorized. IOW, they attempt to bring together various strands of the far right and deliberately do not have a core ideology. ] (]) 02:42, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Exactly. "Some members" espouse white supremist views, but not all members and not the leader. I have been to several BLM marches where some marchers wore communist party shirts and carried communist party signs, but if someone made the the claim that BLM was a communist movement in the led of the BLM article, it would properly be reverted. We do a disservice to our readers when we do not hold articles about despicable groups to the same high NPOV standards as normal articles.] (]) 15:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Also, I do think the Proud Boy have a core ideology, which is pretty well summarized in their slogan “Pinochet did nothing wrong!”. Tarrio sells a t-shirt stating this on his own web site, and ] is often photographed wearing it. Their ideology is that bringing about a violent dictatorship where torture is commonplace is the best way to fight socialism in the US and elsewhere. See https://archive.thinkprogress.org/amazon-shirts-pinochet-far-right-aed4d58ccb0a/ and https://www.splcenter.org/files/proudboyssellingpinochetjpeg . As this ideology is not a cause celeb like white supremacy, you see far more of an issued made about one unknown Proud Boy at one rally wearing a 6MWE t-shirt, a shirt not sold on any Proud Boy web site and which no one in Proud Boy leadership has ever been photographed wearing. ] (]) 15:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Proud Boys are a white nationalist group who tries to ''excuse'' their behavior as being anti-socialist (where "socialist" is used to mean "things we don't like"). Their rhetoric belies the idea that they are just against socialism, since they lump in anything they consider "woke" to be socialist. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::The idea this hate group is open about being pro-Pinochet, pro-dictatorship, pro-torture and murder of socialists, anti-immigration, anti-feminist, anti-LGBT+ rights, and islamophobic, but is hiding their white nationalist agenda is an interesting theory. I don’t see much evidence for it, but I see a lot of evidence against it. Tarrio is Afro-Cuban, Gibson is Japanese American, and Toese is Samoan. McInnes, whose wife is the daughter of Native American activist Christine Whiterabbit Jendrisak, once said "I've made my views on Indians very clear. I like them. I actually like them so much, I made three." ] (]) 19:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Being pro-Pinochet is not an ideology. Pinochet supporters included liberals, conservatives and far right. Many of them of course were also white nationalists. |
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:::::I think it is very short-sighted to claim that the Proud Boys as a group have a white nationalist agenda. It's basically saying we've seen this before so they must be the same. But the American far right also originally had a virulent anti-Catholic agenda. They now however accept Irish and Italians as those groups became absorbed into American society. Six of the nine justices of the U.S. Supreme Court are now Catholics - that's not just tokenism. Now they seem to be attracting Hispanics, who are also (slowly) moving into U.S. Society. No doubt they would also like to attract more blacks. Also, while many members are anti-Semitic, they also attract members from the Jewish far right. ] (]) 02:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::I agree it is short sighted. It may dangerously underestimate the Proud Boys as well to assume they are white nationalist, I think their appeal is far broader than that. I watched some of McInnes's attempted intervention with Kenya West, trying to convince him being anti-Semitic is a mistake and that many of the Orthodox Jews are Trump allies. It sounds like anyone of any race who is a Trump ally is considered a Proud Boy ally.] (]) 03:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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* Here<ref>{{cite journal|first1=Margo|last1=Kitts|title=Proud Boys, Nationalism, and Religion|url=b}}</ref> is a fairly good academic paper on the Proud Boys' white nationalism. The first sentence of its abstract is {{tq|The Proud Boys are an opportunistic hate group whose message of white male chauvinism is infused with religious and nationalist symbols}}. It says in the body that {{tq|However, the ideology of the Proud Boys seems to be ever fluctuating, as are its targets. It has been pointed out that founder McInnes plays a duplicitous rhetorical game in rejecting the label of white nationalist and alt-right while espousing many tenets associated therewith.}} paper says much the same thing (see especially the section {{tq|Denial & Shifting Blame: DARVO as a Discursive Tactic}}, which focuses on how they obscure their white nationalist ties.) Other good sources include "Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination"<ref>{{cite book|first1=Alexandra Minna|last1=Stern|title=Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=_--dDwAAQBAJ|publisher=Beacon Press|date=16 July 2019|isbn=978-0-8070-6336-1|via=Google Books}}</ref>, an entire book from an academic publisher exploring modern white nationalism via the Proud Boys. In terms of news coverage, Politico calls them a "white nationalist fight club"<ref>{{cite web|first1=Politico|last1=Magazine|accessdate=2022-12-18|title=What Charlottesville Changed|url=https://politi.co/2w0FiWJ|website=POLITICO Magazine}}</ref>, a characterization that another academic paper has cited approvingly. So while they deny that they are white nationalist, I don't think that this is treated seriously in academia - they're frequently covered in-depth as a white nationalist group, and are often used as an ''example'' of what a modern white nationalist group looks like. --] (]) 05:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::I think this research is pretty out-of-date and weak. There is no mention of Tarrio, who took over in 2018, in either the Kitts or the Kutner paper. These papers make the assumption you can't prove the group is despicable unless you can uncover some hidden ties to white nationalism greater than the fact a significant subset of the membership is involved with white nationalism. I think this is unnecessary, there is plenty of despicable stuff out in the open. The thing Kitts gets right is the stuff about Trump being their hero, I wish the article would expand on that. ] (]) 23:23, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::'''''Seconded.''''' The ICCT paper is incredibly duplicitous. I quote the following from the article: |
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:::'' |
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:::''“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for our white children”. The latter is referred to as “the fourteen words”. The Proud Boy’s slogan is thematically linked to the fourteen words, as both emphasize the need to secure or preserve western or white culture. To provide further evidence of the linguistic bridge between western and white nationalism, it is important to reference an episode of the Gavin McInnes show, where his guest, Emily Youcis, a vocal supporter of white nationalism, implored him to say the fourteen words to prove he was at the crux of “this movement.” Gavin McInnes, in response, recited the 14 words, replacing “white” with western."'' |
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:::Somehow, the fact that McInnes '''''declines''''' to make pro-White statements is used as evidence '''''that he is a white supremacist.''''' |
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:::It seems that the main evidence that the Proud Boys is a "White Nationalist" organization is that they ''''' frequently insist that they are not.''''' If this is true, then Antifa must be Fascist, Mumia Abu-Jamal must be a cop-killer, and Jews must be the clandestine rulers of the Earth, because they all '''''protest so much''''' that they are not. |
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:::Also, Tarrio is mentioned in the Hague paper, though just as an "Afro-Cuban." ] (]) 11:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::@] Why did you delete @]'s post here? ] (]) 18:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::: Yes, that deletion was awkwardly done on my cellphone and not ideal. I somehow missed the chance to leave an edit summary, so I went to his talk page and left a warning. We don't allow editors to come here and push their own conspiracy theories. Otherwise, the source and info about Tarrio being an informant is very old news and already in the article, right in the lead with multiple sources. We lost nothing, but I'll have to figure out this mobile editing thing. It doesn't always work well for me, and now, on my phone, I see that talk pages are without a TOC. I don't like it and will have to figure out what's going on. It comes and goes, so I suspect I may be unwittingly triggering some setting. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 20:21, 9 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::There has been plenty of "conspiracy-theorizing" on this talk-page, such as that Enrique Tarrio is a "self-hating" black latino, or that "I think I saw something about Proud Boys saying they think Tarrio is just a front to make them look better." Drowlord at least supported his claim with a somewhat relevant source, unlike others on this thread. You clearly are acting in bad faith, and do not actually have any problem with conspiracy theories, or else you would've deleted the other comments. ] (]) 02:24, 10 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::: That makes no sense. I didn't read the thread, just his comment. What was there (provide an exact quote) in that source that "supported his claim"? You should read my warning on his talk page. You must AGF or stop editing. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 02:41, 10 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::Why are you deleting random comments on threads that you haven't read? You are obviously familiar with the subject, as you say that you are familiar with Tarrio's status as an FBI asset. All you wrote on his page was "Conspiracy theories. Don't spread them here." What am I supposed to learn from that? Drowlord wrote was that Tarrio is an FBI asset, with a reliable source backing up his claim. Did you take issue with his claim that PB is itself a creation of intelligence? If so, you must justify why you take issue with this conspiracy theory, but not baseless, unsourced claims of "self-hating" blacks conspiring with Nazis ''in this same thread.'' ] (]) 05:18, 10 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::: I don't have to take issue with or correct other issues because I take issue with one problem. If I see a problem, I'm allowed to focus on ''that'' problem. |
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::::::::: I took issue with this part of their comment: "The organization is a puppet hate group run by the FBI to justify their domestic terrorism work." Pushing such conspiracy theories is not allowed here. It is forbidden ]. The link Drowlord provided is already used in the article and the issue is a very old one we have already dealt with, so nothing was lost by deleting the comment. We have documented that Tarrio was an FBI asset for a long time. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 01:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC) |
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The Proud Boys often use a Rooster, sometimes painted red, white, and blue, as a ]. Can we add ] (]) 18:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC) |
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{{reftalk}} |
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:It's actually already cited in the article, using the original Independent link rather than Yahoo's wrapper around it. See cite 15. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== They aren't Neo-Fascist == |
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{{hat|Don't feed these kinds of posts. They are not constructive attempts to improve the article, and thus fail ]. I'll HAT instead of deleting, since we've got replies already. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 00:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC)}} |
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The Proud Boys aren't Neo-Fascist. They are definitely Nationalist but aren't Facists. They wish to protect the Constitution in it's original form and insure that the process isn't hijacked by radicalized Leftist elements. ] (]) 16:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC) |
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:See the FAQ. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 16:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC) |
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: LOL!...."protect the Constitution in it's original form and insure that the process isn't hijacked by radicalized Leftist elements." Ummm, a history lesson is in order. The Constitution and the Founding Fathers were leftists, anti-fascists, anti-royalists, and closely allied with the very-radicAL and very left-wing French revolutionaries. That's what made America different from most European countries of the time. European countries were ruled by the right-wing, IOW the royals and wealthy classes. They were class societies. By contrast, America had this radically new "we are all equal", down with class society, idea, IOW it was ruled by the common people, the left-wing, and the people held the power through the vote and democracy. At the time, America was the only country ruled by left-wing, democratic, ideals. No kings, dictators, or titles of nobility, and because of regularly scheduled voting, no sense of need for violent revolution. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 20:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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== Should we add anti Zionism to the Ideology list? == |
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== Unsure best way to integrate information == |
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Hi all, I am reading a ]: which notes in the abstract "The misconception that alt-right gangs are domestic terrorist organizations, primarily driven by racist ideology, ignores just how unrefined and rudimentary the beliefs that connect members together actually are." I'm unsure where in the article this would fit. ] (]) 02:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The founder, Gavin Mclnnes once wrote a list about the things he hates about Israel, one of the Proud Boys leaders said Zionists are criminals who are trying destroy our civilization. ] (]) 05:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Addition of a website URL == |
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:Do you have any sources we can cite for those statements? — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 12:08, 31 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::https://www.jta.org/2020/11/11/united-states/a-leader-of-the-proud-boys-says-it-is-now-a-fully-white-supremacist-group-called-the-proud-goys ] (]) 14:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I don't think this source is sufficient to identify this as part of the group's overall ideology. The source notes {{tq|It is unclear how Chapman’s call has been received by others in the group. Other Proud Boys channels on Telegram have not reflected the changes he wants to institute, and a message from the administrator of one said, “No, we are not the Proud Goys. No, Kyle didn’t stage a coup,” and then referred to him with an ableist slur.}} If this change were broadly accepted, I would expect additional sources would have reported on it in the intervening two plus years. ] (]) 23:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC) |
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I believe we should add the Proud Boys' site's URL to the "Quick Facts" section. ] (]) 18:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2023 == |
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:Do you mean the template on the right? I don't think it makes sense; they're not primarily known for it and it wouldn't provide much useful information as a result. In fact, the only mention of the website of the article is an offhand quote saying that it hasn't been updated in over a year and a half. --] (]) 20:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
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{{hat|] request. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 22:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)}} |
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The word "always" needs to be changed in the sentence |
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{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
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Change everything on this page to an accurate and factual description of the Proud Boys. |
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Here is the appropriate description of this group: |
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"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump, who has always denounced such groups, including the Proud Boys." |
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"We are not a political group. |
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because it simply isn't true, as later described in the article. |
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We are a fraternal brotherhood like the Elk’s Lodge or the Shriners. We are multi-racial group with conservative and libertarian inclinations. We welcome men of all races, straight or gay, into our membership. The only non-negotiable rule is that you are a Western Chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world. The majority of our members are politically right-wing, but this is not a requirement. We disavow communists, Nazis, racists and other violent extremists. We will allow weak, beta-male virgins to join as long they attempt to elevate their status. Our fraternity is about helping men improve their lives. That goes for all men. However, if a prospective Proud Boy refuses to step up to the plate; if he doesn’t heed our advice and try to improve his lot; if he doesn’t assimilate and engage with the group, he will be asked to leave. |
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I suggest the following |
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Many Proud Boys engage in acts of service to their community. This is not a requirement, but highly encouraged. We have assisted churches, veterans organizations, business owners and many others. Men who seek to reinstate a spirit of western chauvinism know that it requires action. That action can take many forms. Some men are active, visibly in the community, others are setting the example with everything they do. Their family, business, and social lives as well as bonding within this brotherhood are their action. Proud Boys love, live and exemplify the phrase “The West is The Best”!" ] (]) 20:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump, who sometimes denounced and sometimes offered acknowledgement of such groups, including the Proud Boys." ] (]) 03:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ] 20:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{partly done|Partly done:}}<!-- Template:ESp --> I'm going to change "has always" to "has". "Offered acknowledgement" doesn't appear in the article and needs consensus. – ] (]) 03:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:Here is the link for reference purposes. https://azproudboys.com/politics-social/ ] (]) 20:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::That's not a reliable source (see ] and ]) ] ] 20:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I guess we'll just name you as the main person in the upcoming defamation lawsuit. The current content on this page is defamatory and absolutely incorrect. We'll be in touch soon. ] (]) 20:55, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::NLT blocked. ] ] 21:12, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2025 == |
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== Ideology == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=no}} |
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So i looked through the PDF linked in Reference No. 1. The word "Chauvinism" are mentioned two times, "Authoritarianism" are mentioned one time, "islamophobia" are mentioned 0 times and none of those are in relation to the subject of the article. |
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{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
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Does the reference really support the statements or am i missing something? ] (]) 18:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
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I think you should add that Donald Trump does not support them, they do, but Trump publicly said ‘The Proud Biys should back off!’ ] (]) 10:22, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:'''Not done''' - This would require reliable sources, and seems irrelevant to the actual topic of the article. Further, him telling them to "back off" was just for optics. It's not enough to say he does/does not support them on its own. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 12:34, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::@] they support trump but trump never supported them, if you want sources look at the 2020 debate: "proud boys? Stand back and stand by "in response to the question: will you condemn white supremacist and militia groups and to say that they stand down and not add to violence to these cities...?" ] (]) 00:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::The article does not say that Trump supports them as far as I can see. ] (]) 03:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::As I said, there's not enough sources for us to say whether or not he supports them. He clearly does, IMO, but we can't put that into the article without sourcing, so I'm not suggesting we add it. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
The Proud Boys was founded as a fraternity that supports the American Republic. Proud Boys support the American Capitalist ideology. Proud Boys have been deemed as Fascist, this is incorrect. Noble hobbs (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
The Proud Boys often use a Rooster, sometimes painted red, white, and blue, as a semiotic. Can we add
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide