| Revision as of 11:20, 10 August 2023 editMiguelMadeira (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users993 edits →Ideology: new sectionTag: New topic← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 15:36, 10 January 2025 edit undoHandThatFeeds (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers12,549 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2025: ReplyTag: Reply |
| (76 intermediate revisions by 46 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Talk header|archive_age=90|archive_bot=lowercase sigmabot III}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{FAQ}} |
|
{{FAQ}} |
|
{{American English}} |
|
{{American English}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell |class=C |collapsed=yes |1= |
|
{{WikiProject Conservatism |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Conservatism |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Men's issues |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Men's Issues |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination |class=C |importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination |importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Organizations |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Organizations |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics |class=C |importance=Low|American=y}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics |importance=Low |American=y |American-importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States |class=C |importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States |importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Crime |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|terrorism=yes|terrorism-imp=Mid |importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Terrorism |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=ap}} |
|
{{stt}} |
|
|
{{Warning RS and OR}} |
|
{{Warning RS and OR}} |
|
{{Tmbox |
|
{{Tmbox |
| Line 18: |
Line 17: |
|
|text = The Proud Boys have a history of self-published claims that often contradict independent reliable sources. As per the ''']''' and ''']''', these statements should be mentioned, but attributed in-text to the group and be within the context of coverage from reliable sources. Be careful not to ] to the Proud Boys' statements, especially when they conflict with reliable sources. |
|
|text = The Proud Boys have a history of self-published claims that often contradict independent reliable sources. As per the ''']''' and ''']''', these statements should be mentioned, but attributed in-text to the group and be within the context of coverage from reliable sources. Be careful not to ] to the Proud Boys' statements, especially when they conflict with reliable sources. |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
{{Ds/talk notice|topic=ap}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{stt}} |
|
{{annual readership |expanded=|scale=}} |
|
|
|
|
|
{{Top 25 Report|Sep 27 2020|Oct 4 2020}} |
|
{{Top 25 Report|Sep 27 2020|Oct 4 2020}} |
|
|
{{Refideas |
|
|
| {{cite book |last1=Park |first1=Meadhbh |editor1-last=Carian |editor1-first=Emily K. |editor2-last=DiBranco |editor2-first=Alex |editor3-last=Ebin |editor3-first=Chelsea |title=Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right |date=2022 |publisher=Routledge |location=London |isbn=978-1-0005-7622-1 |doi=10.4324/9781003164722 |chapter=Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism}} |
|
|
| {{cite book |last1=Stern |first1=Alexandra Minna |author1-link=Alexandra Minna Stern |title=Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination |date=2019 |publisher=Beacon Press |location=Boston |isbn=978-0-8070-6336-1}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{annual readership}} |
|
|
{{section sizes}} |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|maxarchivesize = 250K |
|
|maxarchivesize = 250K |
|
|counter = 7 |
|
|counter = 7 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 1 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 2 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 2 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|algo = old(90d) |
|
|algo = old(90d) |
|
|archive = Talk:Proud Boys/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:Proud Boys/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
|
{{Refideas |
|
|
| {{cite book |last1=Park |first1=Meadhbh |editor1-last=Carian |editor1-first=Emily K. |editor2-last=DiBranco |editor2-first=Alex |editor3-last=Ebin |editor3-first=Chelsea |title=Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right |date=2022 |publisher=Routledge |location=Abingdon, England |isbn=978-1-0005-7622-1 |doi=10.4324/9781003164722 |chapter=Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism}} |
|
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2024 == |
|
== Ideology == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
|
The Proud Boys was founded as a fraternity that supports the American Republic. Proud Boys support the American Capitalist ideology. Proud Boys have been deemed as Fascist, this is incorrect. ] (]) 18:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
So i looked through the PDF linked in Reference No. 1. The word "Chauvinism" are mentioned two times, "Authoritarianism" are mentioned one time, "islamophobia" are mentioned 0 times and none of those are in relation to the subject of the article. |
|
|
|
:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ] 18:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::How does one provide a source contrary to an intangible and subjective viewpoint? ] (]) 18:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::If you'd read that link to our reliable sources policy, that would clear it up. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Symbolism == |
|
Does the reference really support the statements or am i missing something? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Proud Boys often use a Rooster, sometimes painted red, white, and blue, as a ]. Can we add ] (]) 18:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
Overall it might be a good idea to diversify the references for the ideology section of the infobox ] (]) 18:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:] '''Not done:''' According to the page's protection level you should be able to ]. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details.<!-- Template:ESp --> ]] 🍁 19:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
::Trying to get some consensus here {{ping|Callmemirela}}--] (]) 21:02, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Then the edit request template is inappropriate to establish consensus. ]] 🍁 21:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
::::I'll make the change myself if i dont get any responses within a week ] (]) 21:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::@] @] ] is not an ideology, but a political system; it should be removed. |
|
|
:::::Anti-immigration, anti-feminism and anti-LGBT rights can be summarized with the term ]. |
|
|
:::::What do you think of the following ideologies (as internal factions)? |
|
|
:::::*] |
|
|
:::::"The Proud Boys have increasingly embraced Pinochet as a sort of mascot. “Helicopter ride” memes and the phrase “Make Rotary Aircraft Great Again” – references to the dictator’s practice of dropping political enemies from helicopters – are common on Proud Boys’ social media posts. At one point, the group also sold merchandise and gear featuring a crest associated with Pinochet." |
|
|
:::::https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys |
|
|
:::::*] |
|
|
:::::"but welcome non-white members as long as these members acknowledge that Western civilization is superior to all others" |
|
|
:::::https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Organisation-Profile-Series-1.pdf |
|
|
:::::*] |
|
|
:::::"Despite purporting to oppose government tyranny, the Proud Boys’ values exemplify the slippage between right-libertarianism and fascism (Vitolo-Haddad, 2019), working toward what Michael Orth (1990) described as a “libertarian Utopia which combines violence, repression of women, and a dictatorial state into an all-American Utopia which emits strong fascist resonances.” Similarly, political scientist Adolph Reed, Jr. (2013) argues that this contradiction is inevitable in right-wing libertarianism, and the Proud Boys adopt a libertarian “aesthetic” of freedom to promote a politics that is often authoritarian" |
|
|
:::::https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Organisation-Profile-Series-1.pdf ] (]) 13:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Sounds excellent to me ] (]) 14:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:It's actually already cited in the article, using the original Independent link rather than Yahoo's wrapper around it. See cite 15. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
== Participation in the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (2017) == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Unsure best way to integrate information == |
|
The episode should be added to the proud boys history section. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi all, I am reading a ]: which notes in the abstract "The misconception that alt-right gangs are domestic terrorist organizations, primarily driven by racist ideology, ignores just how unrefined and rudimentary the beliefs that connect members together actually are." I'm unsure where in the article this would fit. ] (]) 02:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
References: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Addition of a website URL == |
|
"In March 2017, a Proud Boys member named Brandon Vaughan of the Ottawa, Canada, chapter assaulted a Palestinian-American community college professor. Videos of the assault show Proud Boys members fighting alongside the Jewish Defense League, a right-wing militant organization." |
|
|
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I believe we should add the Proud Boys' site's URL to the "Quick Facts" section. ] (]) 18:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
"Vaughan is a prominent member of the Ottawa Proud Boys, a right-wing group that describes itself as “Western chauvinists.” He is also a regular at far right protests in Ottawa, Toronto and elsewhere in Canada." |
|
|
|
:Do you mean the template on the right? I don't think it makes sense; they're not primarily known for it and it wouldn't provide much useful information as a result. In fact, the only mention of the website of the article is an offhand quote saying that it hasn't been updated in over a year and a half. --] (]) 20:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges |
|
|
https://canoe.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges/wcm/5b97e2c2-4875-47c4-a5e9-730ae5a8e916 ] (]) 13:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2024 == |
|
== Symbolism == |
|
|
|
{{hat|] request. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 22:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)}} |
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
|
Change everything on this page to an accurate and factual description of the Proud Boys. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the appropriate description of this group: |
|
I propose to add the following: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"We are not a political group. |
|
RWDS - Right Wing Death Squad |
|
|
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2023/05/09/what-to-know-about-right-wing-death-squad-phrase-linked-to-texas-shooter-proud-boys/ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We are a fraternal brotherhood like the Elk’s Lodge or the Shriners. We are multi-racial group with conservative and libertarian inclinations. We welcome men of all races, straight or gay, into our membership. The only non-negotiable rule is that you are a Western Chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world. The majority of our members are politically right-wing, but this is not a requirement. We disavow communists, Nazis, racists and other violent extremists. We will allow weak, beta-male virgins to join as long they attempt to elevate their status. Our fraternity is about helping men improve their lives. That goes for all men. However, if a prospective Proud Boy refuses to step up to the plate; if he doesn’t heed our advice and try to improve his lot; if he doesn’t assimilate and engage with the group, he will be asked to leave. |
|
Hoppean snake |
|
|
https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Many Proud Boys engage in acts of service to their community. This is not a requirement, but highly encouraged. We have assisted churches, veterans organizations, business owners and many others. Men who seek to reinstate a spirit of western chauvinism know that it requires action. That action can take many forms. Some men are active, visibly in the community, others are setting the example with everything they do. Their family, business, and social lives as well as bonding within this brotherhood are their action. Proud Boys love, live and exemplify the phrase “The West is The Best”!" ] (]) 20:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
If you know of anything else please say. ] (]) 13:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ] 20:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Here is the link for reference purposes. https://azproudboys.com/politics-social/ ] (]) 20:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::That's not a reliable source (see ] and ]) ] ] 20:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I guess we'll just name you as the main person in the upcoming defamation lawsuit. The current content on this page is defamatory and absolutely incorrect. We'll be in touch soon. ] (]) 20:55, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::NLT blocked. ] ] 21:12, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
{{hab}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2025 == |
|
:p.s. POYB - Proud Of Your Boy |
|
|
:https://extremismterms.adl.org/glossary/proud-your-boy-poyb ] (]) 17:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
== Issues (June, 2023) == |
|
|
|
I think you should add that Donald Trump does not support them, they do, but Trump publicly said ‘The Proud Biys should back off!’ ] (]) 10:22, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:'''Not done''' - This would require reliable sources, and seems irrelevant to the actual topic of the article. Further, him telling them to "back off" was just for optics. It's not enough to say he does/does not support them on its own. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 12:34, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
The neo-fascism template is "open" and takes up much of the page. In the other Misplaced Pages articles it is "closed" (see show/hide). |
|
|
|
::@] they support trump but trump never supported them, if you want sources look at the 2020 debate: "proud boys? Stand back and stand by "in response to the question: will you condemn white supremacist and militia groups and to say that they stand down and not add to violence to these cities...?" ] (]) 00:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::The article does not say that Trump supports them as far as I can see. ] (]) 03:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
There is also a neo-Nazi template that I am not quite sure what it is for. The group is not listed in that template. Also, why in the major action (in the militant organization template) is there not ] instead of "terrorism" which is much more vague? |
|
|
|
:::As I said, there's not enough sources for us to say whether or not he supports them. He clearly does, IMO, but we can't put that into the article without sourcing, so I'm not suggesting we add it. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
The organization, formerly registered as , is now decentralized; the groups are semi-autonomous: |
|
|
|
|
|
"The Proud Boys is a decentralized organization with semi-autonomous chapters in several U.S. states." |
|
|
|
|
|
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys |
|
|
|
|
|
From the way it is written on the ADL website, the organization appears to be international: |
|
|
|
|
|
"Proud Boys have international chapters in Canada, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Australia and the Philippines." |
|
|
|
|
|
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/proud-boys-0 |
|
|
|
|
|
]'s expulsion is missing. |
|
|
|
|
|
https://www.insider.com/ousted-proud-boys-underling-attempts-white-supremacist-coup-2020-11 |
|
|
|
|
|
] candidates and Proud Boys members: |
|
|
|
|
|
Alex Furman |
|
|
|
|
|
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/he-was-a-drug-smuggler-now-hes-a-proud-boy-and-running-against-cori-bush-34136115 |
|
|
|
|
|
Augustus Sol Invictus before being expelled from the Proud Boys |
|
|
|
|
|
https://reason.com/2016/11/07/florida-senate-candidate-struggles-bears/ |
|
|
|
|
|
While affiliation with the ] is present, affiliations with the Libertarian Party have been omitted. In my opinion they are to be incorporated into the article. |
|
|
|
|
|
] (]) 16:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Inconsistent label == |
|
|
|
|
|
The article on ] states, "However, he and his government are generally excluded from academic typologies of fascism." (see https://en.wikipedia.org/Augusto_Pinochet#Accusations_of_fascism); the sources would all seem to be reliable. |
|
|
|
|
|
The argument made by Samantha Kutner starts with the premise that Pinochet is fascist, ergo the Proud Boys who glorify him are fascists. (see pp. 10-11) |
|
|
|
|
|
It is not objective to write Proud Boys is a fascist organization (with this argument) and such a position falls under ] and ]. |
|
|
|
|
|
It should then be pointed out that not all sources describe Proud Boys simply as a neo-fascist group, but with other ideologies so quoting only one label at the beginning of the article is POV-pushing. N.B. Both CTC Sentinel and ICC are based on Kutner's position. |
|
|
|
|
|
Additionally, it would be better to write: ''is considered neo-fascist by some scholars for supporting Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet''. Instead of trying to make the article incomprehensible to a general audience as it is done now. ] (]) 16:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Ideology == |
|
|
|
|
|
The article should have a section about "ideology" and specific positions. ] (]) 11:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC) |
|
The Proud Boys was founded as a fraternity that supports the American Republic. Proud Boys support the American Capitalist ideology. Proud Boys have been deemed as Fascist, this is incorrect. Noble hobbs (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
The Proud Boys often use a Rooster, sometimes painted red, white, and blue, as a semiotic. Can we add
view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: I'd like to suggest a change. Where should I start?
A1: Great! The first thing you should do is check that no one else has already brought up your suggestion. You can check this by going through the current discussions below, or by searching the talk archives.
Q2: Why does the article describe the Proud Boys as "far-right", "neo-fascist" or as having connections to white supremacists?
A2: Misplaced Pages is built off reliable sources, and the significant and clear majority of sources use such descriptions. You can see a few selected sources for these determinations in the article's content, though many other sources have also been included in previous talk discussions: far-right discussion, neo-fascist discussion, white supremacy discussion. Discussion amongst editors around this happened in 2020, resulting in an editorial consensus to keep this three terms per all available evidence.
Q3: I have a connection to the Proud Boys, but there's something wrong.
A3: Neutrality is important to Misplaced Pages, so editors with conflicts of interests are generally discouraged from editing directly, and instead should request edits to be made to ensure their independence. This can be done by creating a new talk section, describing your request (including what needs changing and sources), and adding {{Request edit}} to the top of the section. If there is something wrong like spelling or grammar, feel free to change it yourself, but any meaningful changes are best to be discussed first.
Q4: What sort of policies should I be aware of before I start editing?
A4: If you're wanting to jump in and start editing, it's best that you're familiar with Misplaced Pages's neutrality, verifiability (referencing), and biography policies. We're all here to help build a better encyclopedia, so if you would like some help making sure your change is okay or would like a second pair of eyes to skim over it before you save it, just post a new message on the talk page!
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide