| Revision as of 04:41, 31 August 2017 editPinkvolkswagen (talk | contribs)28 edits →References← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 15:36, 10 January 2025 edit undoHandThatFeeds (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers12,549 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2025: ReplyTag: Reply |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{talk page}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
|
{{FAQ}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States|class=stub|importance=low}} |
|
|
|
{{American English}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell |class=C |collapsed=yes |1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Conservatism |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Men's Issues |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination |importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Organizations |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Politics |importance=Low |American=y |American-importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject United States |importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|terrorism=yes|terrorism-imp=Mid |importance=Mid}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=ap}} |
|
|
{{Warning RS and OR}} |
|
|
{{Tmbox |
|
|
|type = speedy |
|
|
|text = The Proud Boys have a history of self-published claims that often contradict independent reliable sources. As per the ''']''' and ''']''', these statements should be mentioned, but attributed in-text to the group and be within the context of coverage from reliable sources. Be careful not to ] to the Proud Boys' statements, especially when they conflict with reliable sources. |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{stt}} |
|
== References == |
|
|
I want to second the opinion below. This article is completely unhinged non-neutral POV far below Misplaced Pages standards. Calling this group "far right" is objectively wrong. The group's stated mission is to preserve western culture. THAT is not "far right." It is, by definition, "conservative." Clearly some utterly biased person/persons having a vendetta against the group have the last word on this as my edits have been undone - but this sort of bias makes Misplaced Pages a joke. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{Top 25 Report|Sep 27 2020|Oct 4 2020}} |
|
This article is shit and contains 3 shitty references that call proud boys far right so i guess they must be cause well we're calling them that, after all the sky is green because I say it's green. |
|
|
|
{{Refideas |
|
One of the 3 shit references contradicts this article by stating PB is a fight club but this article says FOAK is the fight club part of PB, which is it? |
|
|
|
| {{cite book |last1=Park |first1=Meadhbh |editor1-last=Carian |editor1-first=Emily K. |editor2-last=DiBranco |editor2-first=Alex |editor3-last=Ebin |editor3-first=Chelsea |title=Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right |date=2022 |publisher=Routledge |location=London |isbn=978-1-0005-7622-1 |doi=10.4324/9781003164722 |chapter=Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism}} |
|
I watched the video that reference 2 describes and the AP "reporter" is clearly writing from a partisan viewpoint. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> |
|
|
|
| {{cite book |last1=Stern |first1=Alexandra Minna |author1-link=Alexandra Minna Stern |title=Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination |date=2019 |publisher=Beacon Press |location=Boston |isbn=978-0-8070-6336-1}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{annual readership}} |
|
|
{{section sizes}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 250K |
|
|
|counter = 7 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 2 |
|
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|
|algo = old(90d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Proud Boys/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2024 == |
|
You could change the wording to "has been described as far-right". That's not biased and is an adequate way of dealing with your issue. --'''<font color="#E466A9">]</font><font color="#E466A9"></font>''' 21:42, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
EDIT: Done. If anyone else has any comments on this, please use this page. --'''<font color="#E466A9">]</font><font color="#E466A9"></font>''' 21:49, 31 May 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
The Proud Boys was founded as a fraternity that supports the American Republic. Proud Boys support the American Capitalist ideology. Proud Boys have been deemed as Fascist, this is incorrect. ] (]) 18:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ] 18:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::How does one provide a source contrary to an intangible and subjective viewpoint? ] (]) 18:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::If you'd read that link to our reliable sources policy, that would clear it up. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Symbolism == |
|
:Next time, consider just making the edit instead of ranting on the talk page and then making the edit. ] (]) 16:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Proud Boys often use a Rooster, sometimes painted red, white, and blue, as a ]. Can we add ] (]) 18:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
:: "has been described as far-right" are weasel words. The organization itself declares it is not Alt Right. Why try to insinuate it is? I will make the edit. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
---- |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:It's actually already cited in the article, using the original Independent link rather than Yahoo's wrapper around it. See cite 15. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
I've reverted. 38.132.63.125's comment about the AP journalist is disgusting and sexist. As for the subsequent edit, the downplaying of the group's far-right stances is a form of "improper distancing" - basically distancing ourselves from what the reliable sources say. Where we have multiple high-quality reliable sources that say "Group is X" - and no reliable sources that contradict this, then Misplaced Pages should also directly state that "Group is X" not this "Group has been described as X" weaseling. |
|
|
The idea that "the organization has never described itself directly as 'far-right' or 'alt-right', so we should not ascribe that tag" is not supported by policy. The fact that a group does or does not describes itself in a certain way is not a justification for ignoring how reliable outside observers describe them. They simply don't get a veto in this way. In addition, we ''already'' include in the lead section the group's own self-description. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:57, 4 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
:The issue is that it ''is'' controversial. Most of those sources are biased/unreliable. The "Village Voice" source even says "the group is mostly apolitical". I'm not going to revert, but what is your reasoning, in opposed to saying something like " has noted that the group's idealogy fits ? --'''<font color="#E466A9">]</font><font color="#E466A9"></font>''' 19:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
:: Your position is that the is "biased/unreliable"? And the ? And the ? ]<sup>]</sup> 19:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
::: Well, the first would be OR, but the other two, sure. You never answered my question though. '''<font color="#E466A9">]</font><font color="#E466A9"></font>''' 20:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
:::: Why is the first OR? The link literally says it in the opening line: ''"NEW YORK (AP) — Fights broke out when the founder of a far-right men’s organization appeared at New York University, leading to 11 arrests — the second time this week that violence broke out at a controversial speech at a U.S. university. The speaker, Gavin McInnes, ... McInnes is the founder of a group called the “Proud Boys.'''" ]<sup>]</sup> 20:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Unsure best way to integrate information == |
|
== Proud Boys at HWNDU == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi all, I am reading a ]: which notes in the abstract "The misconception that alt-right gangs are domestic terrorist organizations, primarily driven by racist ideology, ignores just how unrefined and rudimentary the beliefs that connect members together actually are." I'm unsure where in the article this would fit. ] (]) 02:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
I think it should be included, maybe not in the lead, because it is relevant to an event that happened. Unless someone can explain how the group's presence at an art exhibit they allegedly "ruined", I'm including it. --'''<font color="#E466A9">]</font><font color="#E466A9"></font>''' 02:18, 11 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
: Neither source you included states that the organization was present at the event, only that there were individuals who personally supported Proud Boys there. One article simply stated that one guy had a Proud Boy tattoo. The other stated "The area ... became divided into two camps. There were the Trump supporters — a mix of 4chan trolls, Proud Boys and college Republicans, many wearing Make America Great Again hats." To me, that doesn't even come close to saying that the subject of this article, the Proud Boys organization, was present at the event. It would be like saying the Toronto Maple Leafs were present at the Grey Cup if a few of the players were in the stands. ] (]) 17:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
That directly states they were there, and the comparison used makes no sense, but ok, I'm not edit warring. '''<font color="#E466A9">]</font><font color="#E466A9"></font>''' 17:51, 11 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
: Good, I'm not looking for an edit war. I just think that a few guys saying "We're proud boys" isn't the same thing as an organized group stating that they're present at a rally/march/demonstration, whatever. The previous wording made it seem like that's what was going on, but the two sources are very weak, and barely even mention Proud Boys. ] (]) 17:59, 11 June 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The name came from Aladdin? == |
|
== Addition of a website URL == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I believe we should add the Proud Boys' site's URL to the "Quick Facts" section. ] (]) 18:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
I think it's interesting that a group championing the superiority of Western culture takes its name from a musical about the Middle East. Why is that? I think the history of that decision would be a nice addition to the article. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
:Do you mean the template on the right? I don't think it makes sense; they're not primarily known for it and it wouldn't provide much useful information as a result. In fact, the only mention of the website of the article is an offhand quote saying that it hasn't been updated in over a year and a half. --] (]) 20:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
:Do you have a ] for this? --] (]) 17:19, 17 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2024 == |
|
== Sourced Political Terminology & Semi-Protection requested == |
|
|
|
{{hat|] request. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 22:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)}} |
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
|
Change everything on this page to an accurate and factual description of the Proud Boys. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the appropriate description of this group: |
|
Here is the thread where you you can discuss sources relating to the political terminology and alignment of the proud boys for inclusion in the article. Due to lots of reverts and unsourced attempts to edit the article, I've requested semi-protection for this page. Hopefully this will generate more discussion about accurate sources here. If you wish to change the political alignment of the proud boys without sources, this can be done (but not on Misplaced Pages) by leaving the computer terminal at which you are currently stationed and going to talk to them directly. Cheers ] (]) 05:05, 17 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"We are not a political group. |
|
== Proud boys described as 'Far-right' == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We are a fraternal brotherhood like the Elk’s Lodge or the Shriners. We are multi-racial group with conservative and libertarian inclinations. We welcome men of all races, straight or gay, into our membership. The only non-negotiable rule is that you are a Western Chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world. The majority of our members are politically right-wing, but this is not a requirement. We disavow communists, Nazis, racists and other violent extremists. We will allow weak, beta-male virgins to join as long they attempt to elevate their status. Our fraternity is about helping men improve their lives. That goes for all men. However, if a prospective Proud Boy refuses to step up to the plate; if he doesn’t heed our advice and try to improve his lot; if he doesn’t assimilate and engage with the group, he will be asked to leave. |
|
Can someone explain how they are 'far-right'? Gavin mcciness has recalled them from major alt-right rallies numerous times. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
: They are described as far-right because reliable secondary sources describe them as far-right. See ] for an explanation of the policy, and see the citations provided in the article for the sources. ] (]) 15:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Many Proud Boys engage in acts of service to their community. This is not a requirement, but highly encouraged. We have assisted churches, veterans organizations, business owners and many others. Men who seek to reinstate a spirit of western chauvinism know that it requires action. That action can take many forms. Some men are active, visibly in the community, others are setting the example with everything they do. Their family, business, and social lives as well as bonding within this brotherhood are their action. Proud Boys love, live and exemplify the phrase “The West is The Best”!" ] (]) 20:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
== not alt-right == |
|
|
|
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ] 20:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Here is the link for reference purposes. https://azproudboys.com/politics-social/ ] (]) 20:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::That's not a reliable source (see ] and ]) ] ] 20:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I guess we'll just name you as the main person in the upcoming defamation lawsuit. The current content on this page is defamatory and absolutely incorrect. We'll be in touch soon. ] (]) 20:55, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::NLT blocked. ] ] 21:12, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
{{hab}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2025 == |
|
you can't make a claim that a group is alt-right based solely on the reports of journalists. what actions has the group taken which show it to be alt-right? what published words? if the people leading the group denounce the alt-right repeatedly, give some evidence that they are lying. |
|
|
|
|
|
the more wikipedia becomes an ideological bubble chamber, the less credibility it will have. it can be replaced. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:46, 21 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
:Misplaced Pages can and does make claims based solely on ]. Trying to use examples of their behavior to decide their 'real' ideology would be ], which isn't permitted. That's how Misplaced Pages works, and is pretty much how it's always worked. |
|
|
:As the SPLC summarizes, {{tq|"McInnes denies any connection between his group and the far right, dismissing the fact that they show up to the same events, take fashion cues from each other, read the same books, sympathize with each other's viewpoints — including, at times, anti-Semitism — and joust in the shadows of the same windmills."}} Reliable sources, for the most part, treat McInnes' claims as empty spin or PR. If you know of reliable sources which instead support this perspective, let's see them. ] (]) 03:56, 21 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
The Proud Boys have issued a statement clarifying that they are not alt-right.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://officialproudboys.com/proud-boys/we-are-not-alt-right/|title=WE ARE NOT ALT-RIGHT|date=2017-08-21|work=Proud Boy Magazine|access-date=2017-08-21|language=en}}</ref> I have made this clarification next to the claim that they are alt-right, clearly stating that they themselves reject the term alt-right (which they do. Yet that quite remarkable clarification keeps being reversed. It is disingenuous, as they clearly state in the article that The Proud Boys have nothing to do with the topic of race and the "Jewish Question", the defining difference between the alt-lite and the alt-right. To have in the main description the claim that they are alt-right without at the very least referencing their disavowal of that term and the groups that adhere to it is dishonest at best and outright defamation at worst. Please correct this. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:40, 21 August 2017 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
|
|
|
:Defamation implies legal action. ] are not compatible with editing Misplaced Pages. Please clarify your intentions as soon as possible. |
|
|
:This could be more clearly explained lede, but that would first call for an expansion and explanation of aaaalllll these many sources calling them alt-right. Do you have any ] sources for this? If many reliable sources link the Proud Boys to the alt-right, and the only source refuting this is McInnes himself, then this seems questionable regarding due weight. I did add that source, weak as it is. I added it to the section on the ], which was, according to many reliable sources, organized by a Proud Boy. Proud Boys are required to follow McInnes's rules, but Misplaced Pages is not. We are obligated to report things in proportion to due weight. If sources are skeptical of McInnes's tight-rope walk regarding race (as discussed by many sources, such as the SPLC link above), than Misplaced Pages will naturally reflect that, since we reflect reliable sources. McInnes's blog isn't a reliable source for statements of general fact, and is only usable for relevant attributed opinions. Use of this source would have to account for this limitation. |
|
|
:Also, I know this is verging into ], but how can they have a "Fraternal Order of '''Alt-Knights'''" and also claim to be totally unrelated to the alt-right? Is it supposed to be a joke name? Just a coincidence? If so, why would we take anything they say seriously? ] (]) 00:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
{{ref talk}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== 8/11/17 Charlottesville rally == |
|
|
Members of the group showed up in large numbers at the Charlottesville ] alt-right rally, FWIW |
|
|
|
|
|
] (]) 20:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I've added a section on this. Do you have a source for the 'large numbers' claim? I am finding many sources that they were there, but nothing that concrete. ] (]) 00:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== "Black PBs" == |
|
|
|
|
|
From the group's site: {{tq|"There are no special rules for black Proud Boys (this overrides anything previously published about black PBs) or any other non-white PBs."}} What is McInnis talking about, here? Did black members previously have special rules? If not, why would he need to spell that out for black members, but not for other non-white members? It's far too specific to be boilerplate. ] (]) 22:46, 21 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Unsurprising. mentions that McInnis was recorded telling new initiates to {{tq|"announce yourself as a white, proud Western chauvinist, make sure everyone knows it, and don’t be ashamed"}}. This suggests that nonwhites would be held to different standards. ] (]) 23:36, 21 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2017 == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
{{edit semi-protected|Proud Boys|answered=yes}} |
|
|
I think you should add that Donald Trump does not support them, they do, but Trump publicly said ‘The Proud Biys should back off!’ ] (]) 10:22, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
Change far-right to alt-light |
|
|
|
:'''Not done''' - This would require reliable sources, and seems irrelevant to the actual topic of the article. Further, him telling them to "back off" was just for optics. It's not enough to say he does/does not support them on its own. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 12:34, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
Gavin McInness has used the term alt-light when referring to the Proud Boys not far-right or alt-right, the alt-light share similar views to the alt-right when it comes to nationalism however they do not share the same white supremacists views ] (]) 02:28, 28 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
::@] they support trump but trump never supported them, if you want sources look at the 2020 debate: "proud boys? Stand back and stand by "in response to the question: will you condemn white supremacist and militia groups and to say that they stand down and not add to violence to these cities...?" ] (]) 00:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
:::The article does not say that Trump supports them as far as I can see. ] (]) 03:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::As I said, there's not enough sources for us to say whether or not he supports them. He clearly does, IMO, but we can't put that into the article without sourcing, so I'm not suggesting we add it. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
:] '''Not done:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> Misplaced Pages favors reliable sources. McInnes's stance, such as it is, is already mentioned. If you have ], ] specifically discussing the Proud Boys and the difference between alt-right, far-right, alt alt-lite, please post them here for discussion. ] (]) 02:32, 28 August 2017 (UTC) |
|
The Proud Boys was founded as a fraternity that supports the American Republic. Proud Boys support the American Capitalist ideology. Proud Boys have been deemed as Fascist, this is incorrect. Noble hobbs (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
The Proud Boys often use a Rooster, sometimes painted red, white, and blue, as a semiotic. Can we add
view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: I'd like to suggest a change. Where should I start?
A1: Great! The first thing you should do is check that no one else has already brought up your suggestion. You can check this by going through the current discussions below, or by searching the talk archives.
Q2: Why does the article describe the Proud Boys as "far-right", "neo-fascist" or as having connections to white supremacists?
A2: Misplaced Pages is built off reliable sources, and the significant and clear majority of sources use such descriptions. You can see a few selected sources for these determinations in the article's content, though many other sources have also been included in previous talk discussions: far-right discussion, neo-fascist discussion, white supremacy discussion. Discussion amongst editors around this happened in 2020, resulting in an editorial consensus to keep this three terms per all available evidence.
Q3: I have a connection to the Proud Boys, but there's something wrong.
A3: Neutrality is important to Misplaced Pages, so editors with conflicts of interests are generally discouraged from editing directly, and instead should request edits to be made to ensure their independence. This can be done by creating a new talk section, describing your request (including what needs changing and sources), and adding {{Request edit}} to the top of the section. If there is something wrong like spelling or grammar, feel free to change it yourself, but any meaningful changes are best to be discussed first.
Q4: What sort of policies should I be aware of before I start editing?
A4: If you're wanting to jump in and start editing, it's best that you're familiar with Misplaced Pages's neutrality, verifiability (referencing), and biography policies. We're all here to help build a better encyclopedia, so if you would like some help making sure your change is okay or would like a second pair of eyes to skim over it before you save it, just post a new message on the talk page!
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide