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== Native American leaders == | ||
There is a category titled ] and also a category titled ]. I'm not clear what the distinction is here. Maybe a merger or rename might clarify things? Or perhaps the content needs to be sorted better? ] (]) 16:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Apparently the establish consensus has been overturned . Sure to be a concise and calm discussion. ] (]) 21:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:It looks like "Titles and offices of Native American leaders" is for the titles and offices that were traditional or that are defined in formally organized tribes of the 20th and 21st centuries, while "Native American leaders" includes the people who have held such titles and offices. It can be a bit confusing, because we sometimes know of a Native American leader only by the name of the position held, as in ]. Even widely known names can be ambiguous. ]'s name is an Anglicization of ''Asi-yahola'', which was the title of a role he played, "sacred-drink caller", i.e., the one who went around {{Strikethrough|calling}} {{inserted text|summoning}} eligible men to participate in the ceremonial drinking of ]. But, in many cases, we can separate the name of a leader from the title of the leadership position, and I think there is valid use for both categories. ] 18:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:There's many style guides that say it should be capitalized, where are the published sources saying it's not? ] <sub>]</sub> 22:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Yeah, people love categorizing everything! I don't see what purpose it serves, but it's well-populated so may as well leave as is. ] (]) 18:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Not really something that most readers will even notice. Most editors that are interested in indigenous topics will capitalize the word anyways simply based on the knowledge they have of the topic. ... We'll only get a few here and there that will consider it racist not realizing it's just a grammatical preference. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 02:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Okay. I moved some of the categories for chiefs into the Native American leaders category, for clarity. ] (]) 19:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::There seems to be a lot of retaliation against Native topics lately and the guidelines meant to help newbies in the area write better articles. ] <sub>]</sub> 03:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::: I will be capitalizing no matter what. They can block me. That discussion was full of uncivil mocking of fellow editors by those that shouldn't ever touch an article about Indigenous topics let alone be commenting about it as shown in recent comments made and pointed out. --]] 11:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Agreed. The discussion at ] is appalling (and folks have ''lots'' of free time on their hands!). I keep peeking over about ] and wonder how they handle the need for a base level of familiarity with the subject. Of course we aren't saying "we know best, everyone should trust us" a la ]; we all consistently provide citations. But we have the challenge that the broader public has limited knowledge of Indigenous topics coupled with a lack of desire to learn more or listen to Indigenous voices (due to centuries of structural prejudice in Western societies). On physics subjects, I'd imagine there's an expectation that you've at least studied it on the college level (or a heroic autodidact). ] (]) 13:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Looks like WP has hit a new low. Sigh.... ] (]) 14:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Same with medical articles, of course we have MEDRS for that. Wish we had INDRS or something like it which clearly defined what is a good reliable source for Native American or Indigenous identity and how best to define/label. We don't have that and it has caused a major rift, imo, within the Misplaced Pages editing community and between Misplaced Pages and Indigenous communities. The last few discussions have been appalling. At least with the off-wiki discussions, I finally read them, I can say the criticism, though some of it misguided, is at least coming from a place of trying to, in their minds, respect a person Indigenous identity. I can't say that about some of the discussions on wiki that I've been a part of or watched recently. It is absolutely a new low and disheartening that I am supposed to work with these people that don't respect for other humans. Misplaced Pages does have rules but those rules are not supposed to hurt the encyclopedia and this clearly does hurt the effectiveness of Misplaced Pages to relate to its readers. --]] 14:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::@], see message below. Please help us to include more Indigenous news sources from Alaska! ] (]) 14:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I'll add that I disagree with Moxy. I think this is a serious issue and it will become more serious when we start seeing good faith edits reverted where Indigenous is capitalized in articles. This isn't an effort to remove errant language from a guideline or essay. This an effort to force a particular POV on editors who know better by those that simply don't care about the cause and effects of their decisions. --]] 14:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It's also being removed from ]. I would suggest someone create a RFC at the MOS or WP:INDIGENOUS with the style guides so consensus can be established once and for all. ] <sub>]</sub> 17:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::The United Nations updated their to include that {{tq|"Indigenous should be capitalized when referring to cultures, communities, lands, languages, etc., of Indigenous Peoples, e.g.: Indigenous culture in Ecuador, Indigenous languages are dying out. If referring to flora or fauna, lower case should be used."}} --]] 17:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Hopefully when it's closed who ever does it we'll see the disconnect between the random links vs the style guides. Basically we have someone saying look at the Chicago manual style or United Nation they doesn't capitalize in everyday usage....... Yeah both places have a style guides that say you should. Odd that some simply reject academic protocols like....{{cite web | title=Capitalization | website=University of Waterloo | date=February 24, 2016 | url=https://uwaterloo.ca/brand/downloads-and-resources/university-waterloo-writing-style-guide/capitalization#citizenship | access-date=June 13, 2024}}<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 21:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::It's more than odd, it's verging on disruptive. Probably schoolmarmish types nursing a pet peeve. ] (]) 00:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::The rejection of academic publications is one reason we have a problem with ]. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 01:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::FYI ]. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 13:24, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Continued harassment == | |||
== I had no idea that the "kill the Indian, save the man" ideology still exists == | |||
Numerous individuals signed a letter to the Wikimedia Board of Trustees complaining about Misplaced Pages editors and making diverse accusations at linktr.ee/supportNACWA (the link is on Misplaced Pages's Black List, so you'll have to cut and paste). Bernard Barcena of the ] and Melissa Ferretti of the ] wrote individual complaints as well. ] (]) 17:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
] ] 14:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I don't know what happened in 2019, so can't comment on that. I can say there is no conspiracy; many editors who have edited pages of state-recognized tribes and unrecognized organizations aren't even part of WP INPA. I'm well-versed on the complexity of Native identity and the nature of Native American tribes and unrecognized organizations and back my content up with secondary, published citations. | |||
:Yes, unfortunately, although it's surprising that a Lutheran school did this. ] (]) 14:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Perhaps more experienced editors and administrators from the greater Misplaced Pages community can help convince these individuals that this is an encyclopedia and controversial content needs to be cited. An individual doesn't get to own an article about their organization to promote its POV. Citations from a group's own website, other self-published writing, or Facebook cannot be used to cite controversial edits. | |||
:It is sad that, even today, it continues. The genocide of cultural beliefs and practices thrives on. And like cowards they refuse to respond. What are they afraid of? If this is something you believe with such passion as to expel children from school over then surely you could answer some questions about it and explain your position while accepting criticism for it. --]] 14:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Indigenous identity is a controversial and contested topic in real life. Like any encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages covers controversial topics. I'm sure acupuncturists don't appreciate it that the ] article calls it "quackery" in its opening paragraph. | |||
:Everyone is welcome to edit regardless of their background; however, ] editing is problematic. The only individual prevented from editing are those who have been blocked due to egregious breaking of Misplaced Pages protocols, such as ]. | |||
:In real life – not Misplaced Pages – Native Americans need to prove their identity constantly. We have to show our CDIB cards to access Indian Health Services. We have to show our tribal IDs to vote, to access tribal housing, to apply for Indian-preference hiring, to apply to certain tribal colleges, to apply for certain grants earmarked for Native Americans, to exhibit and sell artwork as a Native American, to prove our Native American status in the Healthcare Marketplace, to register our tribal license plates, to obtain hunting permits, etc. The idea that Native identity is accepted without question is demonstratively false. | |||
:I agree that Native topics should be treated like all others, which means '''reliable sources'''. I would like the larger Wikimedia community to learn about Native topics and place more of these state-recognized tribe and unrecognized organization articles on their watchlists. | |||
:You'll note that established tribes articles don't generate controversy. I wish this kind of time and energy could be applied to topics in ] on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 17:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I question that you "back content up with secondary, published citations" considering what you are advocating for in the in the and discussions, where many users have noted articles you and other IPNA members edit are full of OR and BLP violations which do not rely on RL like secondary sources, and frequently outright contradict RL. I agree I wish Wikipedians understood more about Native people, but if we are going to treat Native people equally that also means we adhere to sourcing and BLP rules, especially to avoid things like libel lawsuits against Misplaced Pages. And to adhere to academic integrity in general. Publishing things on Misplaced Pages that RL sources do not say isn't appropriate, and clearly these tribes have noticed they are treated differently on wikipedia than everyone else based on their race, ethnicity, and citizenship. Many users are not part of IPNA because it is used to promote OR and BLP violations - why would someone who cares about an accurate and quality encyclopedia that fairly and expertly covers Native topics put themselves under a banner that champions the opposite? It is also not harrassment for the tribes to contact the WMF with their concerns, ] says at the top of the page "If you have a complaint about a biography of a living person, and you wish to contact the Wikimedia Foundation, see contact us." This is standard Misplaced Pages process, especially if you don't want them contributing to their own pages. ] (]) 18:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::You'll note that everyone here complied with the consensus reached in the discussion. I do not participate in original research on Misplaced Pages. Yes, spreading conspiracy theories on websites is harrassment. ] (]) 18:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::What conspiracy theory are you talking about? If it's the OR and BLP concerns editors have with you and IPNA, I included two links above about that, so it is certainly not a conspiracy theory. And a letter signed by official tribal and organization reps sent specifically to WMF per standard Misplaced Pages process is also not a conspiracy theory nor harrassment. ] (]) 19:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{Green|We, the undersigned sovereign Native nations have been targeted by a distinct group of Misplaced Pages users who are enabled and protected by the administrative structure of Misplaced Pages. These users push a harmful fringe agenda that redefines Native people in a way that differs from both Misplaced Pages’s standards on ethnic identity and institutions which have authority in the area of Native identity like the United Nations, the United States federal government, and Native tribes and institutions themselves. ...}} | |||
::::: | |||
:::::{{Green|Since 2019 these agendist users have openly flaunted Misplaced Pages standards of verification and identity by using original research and synthesis to create a harmful litmus test for which Misplaced Pages subjects are considered Indigenous Americans and First Nations (Indigenous Canadian) individuals or nations. These assessments are not supported by any form of scholarship, nor by the field of Indian Law, which is the usual forum for questions of legal Native identity.}} | |||
::::: | |||
:::::{{Green|The system these users invented implements a form of digital genocide that erases Native people by falsely labeling individuals and tribes as “self-identifying,” implying that these real Native people are “pretendians” or fake Natives and treating all Native people with suspicion by default. Most of these users appear to be ideologically aligned with a fringe and extreme political group called the Tribal Alliance Against Frauds (TAAF), a self-published primary source they sometimes reference in Misplaced Pages articles on targeted tribes and individuals.}} | |||
:::::] (]) 19:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
: This is pretty much the same stuff as in ], isn't it? <small>I didn't look into the details and I'm not involved in this project / subject, so please correct me if I'm mistaken. Or just ignore my comment. Or whatever. :-)</small> — ] (]) 00:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Requested move of {{noredirect|Apache Indian}}== | |||
::You're correct. Same talking points, just with more fervor. ] (]) 01:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
] | |||
:::Two of the named individuals resigned their sysop rights ] and one additional editor marked themselves as "retired" during an ArbCom case in 2023 over suspected meatpuppetry. Combining that with the damning evidence presented in ] around topics within IPNA scope suggest that previous discussions may be subjected to interference and that some editors' voices were shut out of the very conversation which impacts their identity. And sidebar for a moment, I know that the conversation is more towards Americans, but for Indigenous Canadians, Superior Court of Canada had ruled that ] have equal rights as those with status. Yet the ] only mentions it in passing on the second-last sentence of this 4900+ words page. ]] 14:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
An editor has requested that {{la|Apache Indian}} be moved to another page, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You  are invited to participate in ].<!-- from Template:RM notice--> | |||
::::Skimmed the Tumblr posts when they were initially released, but I don't recall them naming Mark Ironie. Indigenous Girl wasn't accused of anything specifically. No one was blocked; . I don't know how "damning" anything is. Seems like if you want to suggest an edit to ], that talk page would be better. ] (]) 03:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
-- ] (]) 05:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] and ] discussion at ] == | |||
== Related WikiProjects == | |||
] There is ] at the ] about the articles ] and ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Please consider joining the discussion. ] (] | ] | ]) 00:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Do we need two separate projects: ] and ]. Perhaps these would be better merged? — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 08:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Métis Nation of Ontario == | |||
:No. Indigenous people of the Americas refers to Indigenous communities in South and Central America. Indigenous peoples of North America refers to Indigenous communities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean. It would be like saying Aboriginal people of Australia is the same as Indigenous people of Asia. They uniquely different regions. --]] 12:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Okay. Without saying South or Central, "Americas" seems to imply all of the Americas. — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 13:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Right but the very first goal of the wiki-project states {{tq|"Specifically, this Misplaced Pages can improve and create new articles in areas not covered by the WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America or WikiProject Mesoamerica."}} --]] 14:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::: Let me correct one thing I said. I included Central America in Indigenous people of the Americas but it is actually under the umbrella of Indigenous peoples of North America. IpNA, includes Greenlandic Inuit, Aboriginal peoples in Canada, Native Americans in the United States, Indigenous peoples of Mexico, Indigenous peoples of Central America, and Indigenous peoples of the Caribbean. In turn IpNA is a sister project of IpA. --]] 14:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Agreed. North America means ]. Some articles, like ], includes all the Americas so the broader WikiProject covering both Americas makes sense. ] (]) 22:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::In the discussion on this talk page back in , and in the formal proposal for the new project (]) some editors felt that the North American project focused primarily on the United States and Canada, and that a broader project was needed for the areas south of the U.S., including Central America, the Caribbean, and South America. I still don't see much about Central America or the Caribbean in the North American project, but then I don't see much about them in the wider project. ] 15:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::This Wikiproject is for ], which starts at Panama and goes north to Greenland. South America is neglected but would also be neglected if it was merged into this WikiProject. I'm sorry the broader areas are neglected and contribute occasionally. Seems like many WikiProjects are less active in recent years. ] (]) 22:18, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Maybe ] should be changed to include the name "South America" since this one includes North America. ] <sub>]</sub> 22:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Would solve some confusion. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 22:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Yeah, that makes sense. ] (]) 01:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I've dropped a suggestion at that project's talk page — Martin <small>(] · ])</small> 07:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I could see this change being beneficial and resolve any confusion. --]] 19:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Sems an easy but important thing to do. ] ] 11:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I think merging is the way to go here. This is quite an active project, but ] and for that matter ] is struggling. Unifying them into a new ] would bring more editor attention to the overarching topic and reduce duplicated work on things like banner tagging. And if there's a desire to retain more geographically-focused collaborations, they can always become task forces (e.g. ]. – ] <small>(])</small> 12:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::] is a global concept and includes Indigenous peoples from Asia, Oceania, Africa, and Europe. Honestly most of the those are outside most of our spheres of knowledge and will likely guarantee they are neglected. Indigenous peoples of South America are already fairly neglected (although I try to edit those articles occasionally). ] (]) 13:25, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The idea would be to broaden the group in order to bring in people that do have that knowledge. – ] <small>(])</small> 14:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Why not recruit new editors to those less active projects? Over the years I've received a number of invitations to join Wikiprojects, and have always appreciated that outreach. ] (]) 14:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::In short, it won't work; see below. – ] <small>(])</small> 14:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::WP:IPAustralia and WP:IPAmericas show up on your link below as "Active" not "struggling". Has anyone tried to contact the participants of those projects to reinvigorate them? Or checked to see if articles relevant to those areas have been created, but the WikiProject template simply has not been added to the talk pages of those new articles? Also, editors may be actively participating without necessarily using the WProject talk page or modifying the Project page. ] (]) 15:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::The activity statuses haven't been kept up to date either, unfortunately. I recently reviewed all the ] and found that about three quarters of the projects listed as active were not. If that holds for the other categories, the true statistic is probably more like 80% of wikiprojects are inactive. Sadly WikiProjects as a concept have been in decline for many years now. | |||
:::::::In any case, I'd call both of these wikiprojects semi-active right now as there is sporadic talk page activity but little else. If there is activity that doesn't leave a trace on any of the WikiProject project pages... well, I'd question whether that's really 'participating' at all. WikiProjects are supposed to be about facilitating and coordinating collaborative editing, not just putting banners on talk pages. – ] <small>(])</small> 15:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Just wondering if anyone has tried to contact the participants of those two Projects to reinvigorate them and ask them to document whether or not they are coordinating collaborative editing but just not announcing that they have done so on the Project talk page? ] (]) 15:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Not to my knowledge. But what that would that even look like? FWIW, I've been somewhat active in articles relating to Indigenous peoples in South America for over a decade and don't remember ever hearing a peep from the wikiproject. – ] <small>(])</small> 16:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::WikiProject Women in Red did an excellent job recruiting members and inspiring participation by using the mass-messaging system and in-person and online events. Maybe the foundation could throw some money at those struggling projects to develop in-person edit-a-thons, conferences and similar events focusing on Indigenous people and Indigenous land, water and environmental justice issues, and Indigeneity in general. Just a thot.... ] (]) 16:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Speaking as a talk page lurker, I really don't think a merge or name change is going to solve anything. People contribute where their interests and expertise lie, and that isn't going to magically change through a merger (or anything else). A name change (such as the recommendation above to add "South America" to the WPIpA name) might draw in some with that interest and expertise, but merging a project with a clear name with one that isn't won't have the same impact in my view. ]] 13:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::It does not make sense to me to merge WP:IPNA nor WP:IPA into an overarching Wikiproject Indigenous peoples - it is too vast and there are way too many cultural, geographic, customary and historical differences to lump all Indigenous people together. As Yuchi says, Indigeneity is a global concept. IPNA is an active project and it could water-down its effectiveness and the work we do here; to my mind, it seems more pro-active to try to recruit editors to the less-active projects like IPAmerica and IPAustralia. Changing the name of IPA to IPSouth America is fine with me, as long as ] / ] countries and Caribbean countries have a home in one or the other project. ] (]) 14:10, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Very niche projects like Indigenous peoples of America/Australia have had over a decade to show that they can be viable and it hasn't happened. Looking more broadly, are dead – and that's using a very generous definition of activity. I would love it if we could revive all of these small projects, but experience shows that it simply isn't realistic. There's a certain level of participation that's needed for a wikiproject to sustain its activity in the long-term (I've heard 20–100 active editors as a rule of thumb), and recruiting a handful of new participants doesn't get you over that. | |||
:::That a project on the scale of this one has succeeded is the exception, not the rule, and that's why I think there's an opportunity to use that kernel of activity to give adjacent topics a boost. A WikiProject Indigenous peoples would still be quite niche in the grand scheme of things, considering we have projects like ] or ]. But of course, it would only work if the existing participants of the constituent projects are willing to try. – ] <small>(])</small> 14:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::To be honest, and maybe this is me being selfish, I don't want to generalize this wiki-projects name any more than it has to be. We already have a block of editors on Misplaced Pages that are very biased against Indigenous people treating us like third class citizens in discussions and making condescending remarks and mocking our positions on topics very important to us and allied editors. I feel a generalized name gives them reason to attack us and topics related to this wiki-project further. This wiki-project has a very specific, focused and proper name for a group of people with more of a common history, geographically and politically, than they share with other similar groups around the world. --]] 15:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::100% agree with @]. There have been a wave of efforts to silence or disempower or discredit Indigenous voices on Misplaced Pages in multiple venues. | |||
:::::It is very disheartening. Speaking from a personal perspective, I've never threatened to quit WP editing, however of late it has crossed my mind several times because of this trend. ] (]) 15:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::It has very much been weighing on my mind too. I've contemplated the possibility that efforts to increase Indigenous topics on Misplaced Pages has largely been in vain. The loss of Corbie and Indigenous girl along with other editors who have either lost interest or left the encyclopedia are equally disheartening and places a tremendous load on those that remain to continue their efforts, even on those topics where we didn't necessarily agree on every point. I know I have felt it. It seems you have too. --]] 16:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::And the manner in which this leadership was taken down was, at least to my mind, quite shameful. ] (]) 16:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::All we can do to fight racism due to ignorance is to continue to provide content with reliable sources to educate our readers and editors. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 23:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Diluting this project by combining it with other projects that appear to be at least semi-inactive has in my view the unintended consequence of diminishing what this project has accomplished. Expecting those accomplishments to somehow carry over to other areas where current participants have little interest or expertise isn't realistic. In fact, it has the distinct possibility of being counter-productive. ]] 15:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::That certainly wasn't my intention in suggesting this. My thoughts were quite the opposite: that the activity of this project could be used as a launchpad for improving our coverage of Indigenous peoples in other parts of the world. As a concrete example, one of the most recent successes of this project seems to have been gaining a consensus on the ]. But this of course is not an issue that is relevant only to North America. As someone relatively active in editing articles relating to Indigenous peoples elsewhere (especially South America), the first I heard of that was when S. America-related articles on my watchlist started getting moved. Which was great to see – but a surprise. So you see both sides of the coin there: on the one hand, the activity of WP IPNA achieved an outcome that benefitted global coverage of Indigenous peoples. On the other, there was a missed opportunity for editors active in other regions—including Indigenous editors—to participate in the discussions and potentially make it easier to gain consensus. | |||
::::::But it's just a suggestion. If the participants of this project don't want to happen, it won't happen. As an alternative, would there be objections here if I proposed merging the two semi-active wikiprojects (on South America and Australia) into a ] that did not include North America? – ] <small>(])</small> 16:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I definitely believe your effort is good faith. I don't want that to be misstated. I think gaining the perspective of Indigenous peoples and allied editors from other regions is most beneficial. You should feel free to propose any merge or any other action you feel would benefit Indigenous topics on Misplaced Pages. --]] 16:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Joe, with all due respect for your work and efforts towards resolving lack of ''visible'' participation, it does not make any sense to me to mash-up South America with Australia in one Wikiproject. At all. South America is huge and has millions of Indigenous people and relevant topics and should either be its own ] or be left as part of ]. A suggestion re: Australia ''might'' be a ]. ] (]) 16:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::My understanding is that one of the main reasons we've ended up with hundreds of dead wikiprojects is that there has been a tendency to divide them up based on the potential of the topic rather than the potential of the editor base. If you look at just the topic then yes, of course, Indigenous peoples of South America seems like a massive scope. But the sad reality is that the number of editors actively working on it is in the single digits, at best. There is simply no way to get a group that can sustain the level of participation that you guys have here without up-merging. Broad scopes can and do work. Above you mentioned ] as an example of a highly successful wikiproject (I completely agree): it covers all women that have ever lived, anywhere! – ] <small>(])</small> 17:10, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Please forgive me for being so blunt, but merging/"up-merging" our highly functional, productive, and collegial and sustainably scaled and managed project into a mega-project to "rescue" less-functional or dysfunctional projects is '''''not''''' a good idea. It runs the risk of disappearing or watering down IPNA. ] (]) 17:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Yes I think it's very clear that IPNA does not want to be involved in a merge. No problem. I was responding to your comment about merging the other wikiprojects, which don't have anything to water down. – ] <small>(])</small> 17:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::With the current way editors of Native topics are treated on Misplaced Pages, I certainly wouldn't recommend this place for editors to contribute. So I don't see how merging projects is going to fix the way editors and topics related to Indigenous people are treated around here that would encourage new editors to stick around. ] <sub>]</sub> 20:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::I have to agree. Misplaced Pages is hostile to Indigenous people and very biased against Native topics and Native communities if recent discussions are any indication. Misplaced Pages has decided it can choose who is and who is not an authority, not Indigenous communities, on who is an Indigenous person or not. Misplaced Pages has decided that being an Indigenous person is not worthy of the common respect we afford other human beings, ethnicities, races and with regard to their citizenship in sovereign Native American nations. They have altered the accepted view of what it is to be Indigenous, not just a descendent of Indigenous people. Misplaced Pages has made it where anyone can claim to be Indigenous and it will be stated as absolute truth here. In just a few series of discussions the voices of Indigenous editors, and allied editors, of this Wikiproject have been swept aside as meaningless. This Wikiproject and editors of Native topics have been mocked, ridiculed, attacked and belittled. They have, more or less, said our contributions are not wanted or necessary. So, like oncamera, I would not recommend this place for editors to contributeat this time. I, myself, am contemplating an indefinite break. --]] 13:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::I'd like to add that that in deletion discussions it seems that Indigenous people (enrolled) are held to a higher standard than non-Indigenous Americans or Europeans. And I wonder if the Indigenous press are considered as reliable as non-Ind newspapers/magazines/publications. Perhaps a closer partnership between this project and ] is warranted. ] (]) 23:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::I agree that a partnership would probably be beneficial. --]] 11:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
] and ] don't look to be incredibly active, but ] is active, and it looks like they are seeing similar challenges with terminology. While especially Native Americans' political issues and status are unique, our different WikiProjects share the challenge of being outnumbered by editors who don't know and don't care about the facts in our subject field. I added all three WikiProjects to my watchlist and ] on my watchlist. ] (]) 14:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
What is the official status of the ] within Canada? The article claims it is officially recognized by the Canadian government, but that is unclear to me. The claim that this group descends from the Red River Métis is sourced from the website of the organization itself, so not a reliable source. ] (]) 01:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I have done likewise. --]] 15:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::It seems as though Misplaced Pages's bias against Indigenous people stands. I am appalled at the support this racist agenda received by so many editors here to the point I feel as though I can't edit effectively edit under this agenda. Misplaced Pages will never receive the support of Indigenous communities so long as it holds these colonial values. I will not actively encourage Indigenous editors to stop editing but I also will not encourage Indigenous editors to edit. That is a personal decision every editor will need to make. I will however warn them that you will come face to face with persistent racist points of view and a staunch wall of support for biased positions against Indigenous people and Indigenous communities within this encyclopedia that our communities have faced. | |||
::Subjugation, assimilation and genocide seems to be the hand that is played over and over. It is abhorrent and so persistent that one need not assume good faith on the part of those supporting when they use policy from their own view point to promote a racist agenda and actively mock and ridicule the opposing view points of editors on this Wikiproject. To actually say there are no supporting sources for our opposing views is either reckless naivety or willful ignorance. For those who may find this in the future: Yuchitown, Netherzone, oncamera, myself and others presented very clear, very resounding evidence that much of this progressive world, with regard to media and academia, has changed. The decision to not only dismiss these sources but to actually deny that the preponderance of this evidence exists promotes this colonial view point that Indigenous people should not be respected equally with other races and ethnicities. It is deeply rooted in the foundation of this encyclopedia and this editing community. It may not be a coordinated effort, I would never suggest such, but it is an engrained position and one inherently woven into the fabric of this encyclopedia and many of the people you will come in contact with here. That much has become very evident. One need not read very far in these discussions to see it. --]] 14:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I came here from a note at ARoseWolf's talk page. I want to offer this suggestion. It's a net negative to make good-faith editors working in any topic area feel unwelcome because of their interests or personal backgrounds. Like all of Misplaced Pages, WikiProjects are volunteer efforts, not compulsory hoops that participating editors should have to jump through. Characterizing WikiProjects as "active" or "inactive" is, frankly, a worthless thing to put effort into. Something with little activity today may become very active tomorrow, if an editor comes along who makes that activity happen. So if editors at any given project want to define it a particular way, let them do it. But don't tell them that they aren't "active enough". --] (]) 21:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::@], right on! I agree 100% with your suggestion regarding the problematics of characterizing certain WProjects as "active" or "inactive" and everything you said above. When I first joined ] there was very little activity there, however this has changed and at times there has been a lot of activity and collaboration with newer editors. Why should we feel the need to "report" to the powers that be that we have been actively collaborating on various articles? In fact I never knew that was a requirement or considered best practices to be actively accountable for our work and efforts here. Why the pressure to perform on cue? There are waves of activity in human nature, for example academics may slow way down on their participation during the school year, and be more active during breaks from teaching, or vice versa. There are also waves in a person's focus and attention. There have also been "active" members who have had health problems (or other real life issues) or log-on problems and thus are not as active as before. I don't think we should be getting rid of or merging WikiProjects just because editors are not "keeping up with the Jones" of super-active projects. Misplaced Pages is not a race-to-the-finish line, nor a competition or contest; there are no deadlines - we are UNPAID VOLUNTEERS <small>(capitalized for emphasis, not shouting)</small> and are doing our best as such. I hope the admins and powers-that-be continue to honor and value and appreciate that ''we are all trying to improve the encyclopedia when we find the time in our busy and complicated lives''. We should not have to feel like we have to meet quotas for participation for our efforts to count. We should not have to feel like we must work harder, longer, or quicker to make WP better <small> (Faster Pussycat!!!)</small>. We are <u>unpaid volunteers</u> not employees of WP where such expectations may be more appropriate. Wikiprojects help to build positive working relationships for editors with common interests; the results - even if at a snails pace -are improvements to the encyclopedia. Personally, I'm beginning to feel more and more like WP is becoming a totally thankless volunteer "job" and my efforts would be more appreciated elsewhere. ] (]) 23:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::I was not disparaging anyone or any project by saying “they don’t look incredibly active” (did not use the term “inactive”). I was just pointing out that the editors of these project are likely experiencing similar negative experiences that we are experiencing and good be potential allies. Adding them to my watchlist was a way I can potentially support their projects. I wasn’t asking any volunteers to work more. ] (]) 11:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::@], I'm so sorry if it sounded like I was disparaging you by saying they don't look "active" I was not. I definitely know you were not asking volunteers to work more! Forgive me if it sounded that way! | |||
::::::I was addressing the "powers that be" - <u>meaning functionaries and admins</u> - and such who are concerned that some wikiprojects are not active ("inactive") and therefore not useful to the project at large or need to be rescued. | |||
::::::Sorry, I'm not the best writer (dyslexia, and a tendency to write sentences "inside out"). I wrote this when I was upset about the change from capital "I" to lower case in relation to Indigenous people and with the "no consensus" AfD for Kade Ferris claiming there were not P&G arguments to keep. It seemed like the Indigenous sources were not being counted towards GNG. Recently it has felt like an onslaught against Indigenous topics and editors; I should probably not edit when feeling upset because my prose loses clarity. I'm weary of the way Indigenous editors are treated here and how some Indigenous topics are held to different standards. ] (]) 14:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Thanks for clarifying. The recent closes and close review have been appalling. The ] discussion close made zero sense. Experienced editors should follow Misplaced Pages protocols. ] (]) 14:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I just read that discussion. I've been so focused on the other discussions taking place that I missed this one. All I can do is shake my head. If those sources and that discussion lead to '''no consensus''' then that solidifies my position further that the bias against Indigenous subjects, topics and persons is so prevalent on Misplaced Pages that it is the defacto position in every discussion before any evidence is presented and little can persuade differently when the position is that Indigenous sources carry less weight or are less reliable than other sources. --]] 17:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::@], I hope you know I was not addressing you in my rant about active/inactive - my comments and rhetorical questions were towards "the powers that be", meaning functionaries, admins, closers, etc. I wrote what I wrote while in a state of shock and dismay and I wasn't being clear or cool-headed. Gonna go dunk my head in some cold water now. :) ] (]) 18:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Netherzone, understood and no worries. And thanks. --] (]) 21:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
: ] https://www.canada.ca/en/crown-indigenous-relations-northern-affairs/news/2023/02/recognizing-and-implementing-metis-nation-self-government-in-ontario.html <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 01:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
To all Native editors in this project: please don't leave. We need your voices here to counter the colonialist mentality and the racists. Please keep calling out what you see; it's important to have your presence here so that conscious editors can get the message. Thanks for all that you do. We, and Misplaced Pages, need you. ] (]) 01:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Move proposal == | |||
:I see you, Carlstak. We did good on ]. But it was such a fight to even get what we did get. And I'm finding that with any article and every discussion about Indigenous and Native American related topics. It becomes such a struggle to fight against these entrenched racist view points. How can I be expected to participate in a project under principles that I must agree with and support that does not recognize our Indigenous identity with the same respect other races and ethnicities are given. How am I expected to collegially edit where my views are openly mocked in discussions by fellow editors. It doesn't matter what evidence is brought forward when others can simply dismiss those sources as nonreliable without any discussion about the sources themselves. When editors can openly mock others and nothing is done about it. When they can present racist views and those views are supported by the community and forced upon us as a condition to edit. I will not participate in that kind of project. When they are rewarded for their expressed views, celebrated even. In those discussions, my identity as an Indigenous person was reduced to no more than a simple adjective. Besides I would inevitably be blocked at some point for edit warring when my edits of "indigenous" to "Indigenous" were reverted anyway. Why put myself through that? I will let Misplaced Pages and those editors cling to their racist views and colonial values. I will be able to hopefully come back to the table when I and the identity of fellow Indigenous editors is respected among other races and ethnicities. --]] 12:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
]. ] (]) 00:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::With academic journals selling their vast libraries to Microsoft AI and other AI systems gathering academic data, Misplaced Pages will be left behind as a resource. And many of those academic journals use the updated terminology that we are using in our arguments, so this behavior by other editors to remain outdated or ignorant in their writing/thinking is detrimental to the survival of this site anyway. The whole site has slowly become inactive over the years and even now when I search with Google, AI will give me enough information that I don't really need to click an article. This is just the beginning and end of how people access information, Misplaced Pages is at the cusp of becoming outdated because of human behaviors holding it back. ] <sub>]</sub> 14:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::{{tq|AI will give me enough information that I don't really need to click an article}} The vast majority of information ] gives me is beautifully written, but 100% wrong. Of course, that might not be true in 20 years, but at the moment, you should not rely on any of these services. ] (]) 23:42, 26 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::I wouldn't rely on Misplaced Pages either and will not. --]] 23:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I understand your concern. I make a habit of trying to check the sources when I have time. My understanding, based on the research I've read here and there, is Misplaced Pages is more reliable than the majority of comparable sources. I'm not certain our concerns are the same (but they might be), but where I find a lot of outstanding issues are in US articles about people or ideas on the left-right spectrum. There's also a kind of silent censorship, in that certain topics don't even exist, which I find extremely odd. I will give you the most recent example I identified just yesterday! Take a look at our article on the ]. It's missing the most highly controversial topic, namely the well-recorded dispute between the two campaigns that had them levying insults of the highest order against each other. Why is this important? Well, since 2016 or so, political campaigning has been said to lack all decorum, ethics, and respect for the opposing parties. It turns out, there are historians who have been telling us, wait, this is not new, it's happened before, please see the 1796 election for details. And when you look into it, lo and behold, yeppers, it was quite a shocker. But, nothing on Misplaced Pages! Looking at the talk page of the article, a user by the name of "Kooky" brought to this attention of the community...in 2015! Nothing was ever done. I just saw their query for the first time and posted a reply saying we should cover it. More details . ] (]) 09:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::BTW, I asked Microsoft Copilot to tell me about the 1796 United States presidential election. Here is their response: "Looks like I can’t respond to this topic". ] (]) 09:47, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Misplaced Pages is a good starting point for sources and in some cases gives a decent general overview, but I agree you can't really trust what's in many articles. I've been involved in a few reviews resulting from AfDs, and the articles in question were found to have fabricated entire quotes from purported sources (which in some cases didn't even mention the subject of the article). And no one really seemed to care. ]] 16:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
Please don't rely on Misplaced Pages on Indigenous topics and don't relay on 99% of newspapers either! ] (]) 16:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Education project == | |||
:Best advice ever given. --]] 10:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
A class will be editing some articles related to this project (see ]). I'm sure they will appreciate any help we can give them. ] 19:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Requested move at ] == | |||
] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span><sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Right on! I always wish they'd pick smaller, more neglected topics than the huge, main ones, but more eyes are always helpful. ] (]) 20:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Good article reassessment for ] == | |||
::Too true! So many little articles are stubs or could badly use a rewrite! ] (]) 23:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the ]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ] (]) 00:28, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Self-identification == | |||
== ] == | |||
I don't believe I'm allowed to comment at ], but obviously there's been a concerted effort to remove any use of variations of terms relating to "self-identification" in relation to Native American identity on Misplaced Pages. My understanding is this term is offensive in LGBTQ+ communities in the context of gender, sex, and sexual oritentation. However, "self-identification" is widely used in published literature about Native American identity, which is fundamentally a collective identity, not an individual identity. Unfortunately, the mainstream public has a massive knowledge gap about what Native American tribes are today or what Native American identity constitutes, which is why published citations from informed sources are so necessary. The phenomenon of non-Native people mistakenly or falsely claiming Native identity is so widespread in the United States that entire books and academic journals have been written about it (and are widely cited throughout Misplaced Pages). Several are cited in ]. This is just background context. | |||
Would people be interested in joining a wikiproject on improving and creating articles about oral tradition? Misplaced Pages's coverage on this appears to be very poor ] (]) 19:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
The term ''self-identification'' '''does not''' mean "fraud". It means exactly how the Merriam-Webster defines it, "{{green|identification with someone or something outside oneself}}" . When an individual makes a statement of Indigenous identity, they have self-identified. (Sometimes people eligible to enroll as tribal citizens do ''not'' self-identify; that is possible.) I'm going to list examples of the use of the term in secondary, published literature about Native American identity below. I truly wish people who want to police Native American articles would read some of the widely available scholarly literature about Native American identity and tribes. ] (]) 15:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Requesting feedback for proposed Hard Rock Cafe changes == | |||
:* | |||
Hello! Matthew here on behalf of Seminole Hard Rock Support Services at ]. I'm here on Misplaced Pages to suggest updates and other improvements to pages about the company and executive leadership. | |||
:* | |||
:* | |||
I am concerned about the current state of the ] article, which should be focused on the restaurant chain but has a significant amount of information about the parent company as well as the Seminole Tribe of Florida and Hard Rock's hotel and casino properties. I've proposed some structural changes ''']''', in an attempt to separate text about the restaurant chain from text about the company's hotels and casinos. Some of the changes are specifically related to the Seminole Tribe of Florida, so I am hoping some members of this WikiProject can take a look. Thanks, ] (]) 19:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:* | |||
:* {{green|"The expression 'self-identified Indian' is sometimes used to refer to anyone who does not satisfy the requirements specifically of legal definitions."}} | |||
:* {{green|"A Native American may not self-identify as American Indian if he/she is currently not in a position to contribute to the tribe."}} | |||
:* {{green|"Vizenor's, on the other hand, was published in 1988, in the midst of a Native American renewal that has seen a threefold increase in the number of self-identified Native Americans in recent decades."}} | |||
:* {{green|"The cultural significance of the current numbers, and the various social, political, and methodological reasons for the dramatic increase in self-identification as Native American will, no doubt, continue to be an object of considerable interest."}} | |||
:* {{green|"There is considerable variation and fluidity in how multiracial, Hispanic, and Native Americans self-identify, as well as how they are classified by others."}} | |||
:* {{green|"This has placed a substantial burden on definitions for legal purposes and tribal affiliation and on American Indians trying to self-identify within multiple cultural contexts."}} . ] (]) 15:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:*:Oh good grief! @], maybe you could ask one of the Arb clerks if it's OK to post there or ask on the talk page ] if you can provide this evidence/examples/sources and/or make a comment. ] (]) 17:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:*:* , U.S. Department of the Interior | |||
:*:* (2012), {{Green|"Non-federally recognized tribes fall into two distinct categories: (1) state-recognized tribes that are not also federally recognized and (2) other groups that self-identify as Indian tribes but are neither federally nor state recognized."}} | |||
:*:* , {{green|"Indigenous peoples in the US generally self-identify as tribes, though some groups use nation or band."}} | |||
:*:* , p. 235, {{Green|"Despite this, many Native political organizations and communities in Massachusetts self-identify as tribes today."}} | |||
:*:] (]) 22:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:*::Great additions, @] to the roster of sources. Here are some others that may be useful to the project that are from the ] I'm working on (sorry for any duplicates). Links are in footnotes | |||
:*::'''Identification''' | |||
:*::* Indigenous identity, being, and belonging<ref name="Contexts">{{cite journal |last1=Gonzales |first1=Angela A. |last2=Kertész |first2=Judy |title=Indigenous identity, being, and belonging |journal=Contexts |date=Summer 2020 |url=https://contexts.org/articles/feature-article-indigenous-identity-being-and-belonging/ |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref> | |||
:*::* ] | |||
:*::* , (Harvard Law Review) | |||
:*::* ], 436 U.S. 49 (1978)<ref name="USSC-scpvm">{{cite web |title=Santa Clara Pueblo v. Martinez, 436 U.S. 49 (1978) |url=https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/436/49/ |website=Justia: U.S. Supreme Court |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref> | |||
:*::'''Tribes are sovereign governments (nations), not racial classifications''' | |||
:*::* , <ref name="ILRC">{{cite web |title=Tribes are governments, not racial classifications |url=https://indianlaw.org/story/tribes-are-governments-not-racial-classifications |website=Indian Law Resource Center |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref><ref name="ABeacon">{{cite news |last1=Malloy |first1=Kerry |title=US citizenship was forced on Native Americans 100 years ago − its promise remains elusive |url=https://alaskabeacon.com/2024/07/30/us-citizenship-was-forced-on-native-americans-100-years-ago-%E2%88%92-its-promise-remains-elusive/ |access-date=11 November 2024 |publisher=Alaska Beacon |date=30 July 2024}}</ref>,<ref name="BI">{{cite web |title=Why the federal government needs to change how it collects data on Native Americans |url=https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-federal-government-needs-to-change-how-it-collects-data-on-native-americans/ |website=Brookings Institute |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref> <ref name="NCoAI">{{cite web |title=Tribal Nations and the United States |url=https://archive.ncai.org/about-tribes |website=National Congress of American Indians |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref><ref name="OBA">{{cite web |last1=Vance |first1=Austin R. |title=For the Children: Indian Status Is a Political Classification |url=https://www.okbar.org/barjournal/feb2020/obj9102vance/ |website=Oklahoma Bar Association |publisher=Oklahoma Bar Journal |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref><ref name="JoE">{{cite web |last1=Gampa |first1=Vikas |last2=Bernard |first2=Kenneth |last3=Oldani |first3=Michael J. |title=Racialization as a Barrier to Achieving Health Equity for Native Americans |url=https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/racialization-barrier-achieving-health-equity-native-americans/2020-10 |website=AMA Journal of Ethics |publisher=American Medical Association |access-date=11 November 2024}}</ref> | |||
:*::* ] , <ref name="USSC-m v m">{{cite web |title=Morton v. Mancari, 417 U.S. 535 (1974) |url=https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/417/535/ |website=U.S. Supreme Court}}</ref> | |||
:*::* | |||
:*::* ] | |||
:*::'''Citizenship''' | |||
:*::* | |||
:*::* , by Rebecca Tsosie (UCLA Law Review) | |||
:*::* ] <ref name=TallBear1>{{cite journal|author=Kimberly TallBear |authorlink=Kim TallBear|title=DNA, Blood, and Racializing the Tribe|journal=Wíčazo Ša Review|date= 2003 |volume=18 |issue=1 |pages=81–107 |publisher=University of Minnesota Press |jstor=140943|doi=10.1353/wic.2003.0008|s2cid=201778441 }}</ref><ref name="nhpr">{{cite news |last1=Furukawa |first1=Julia |title=Review of genealogies, other records fails to support local leaders' claims of Abenaki ancestry |url=https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2023-05-22/review-of-genealogies-other-records-fails-to-support-local-leaders-claims-of-abenaki-ancestry |access-date=7 July 2023 |work=New Hampshire Public Radio |date=11 November 2024}}</ref> | |||
:*::* ] (WP:IPNA essay) | |||
::::{{talk ref}} | |||
:*::*] (]) 00:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
==] has been nominated for merging and renaming to ]== | |||
== First Nations (North American Indian) n.o.s. == | |||
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>], which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merging and renaming to ]. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the ] guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at ''']''' on the ] page.<!-- Template:Cfd-notify--> Thank you. ] (]) 09:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
Why there are so many First Nations (North American Indian) n.o.s. - 632 340 people. Why so many people does not no their tribes or they are fake indians? ] ] (]) 16:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
==Native American and First Nations law resources== | |||
:Perhaps their particular First Nations are not listed as an option on the census. Then many people were removed from their communities and families in the ]. Then some people might be mistakenly believing family lore. ] (]) 18:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
I have added a new section in our IPNA main page on Native American and First Nations law resources with subsections for the U.S. and Canada. ] These resources may prove helpful to participants of this project in finding and researching Indian law and legal issues regarding tribal recognition, citizenship, enrollment, repatriation, environmental justice issues and sacred places protection. This is just a start, please feel free to add to the list of resources. ] (]) 20:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Brilliant! Thank you so much. ] (]) 02:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Artistic representations of First Nations and Native Americans in articles == | |||
::I went ahead and started a user page draft in preparation to create a list article: ] - Feel free to contribute to it! | |||
::It would be wonderful if interested participants and members of this WikiProject help to improve it before it's moved to article space. I've just begun to scratch the surface of this vast topic, there is so much more to add. These resources are useful for research, article improvements and in seeking consensus on content disputes. | |||
::Also wondering if there should be two list articles, one for Native American, Native Hawaiian and Native Alaskan, and another for First Nations. Any feedback or thoughts are welcome. ] (]) 16:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
In many articles covering Indigenous peoples, there are paintings that are used as ''representations'' of the artist's interpretations of the subject or person depicted. Paintings in particular from the 19th and early 20th centuries present a romanticized, dramatized or otherwise fictional representation. Some of these paintings are highly realistic in technique but do not represent "reality" in the same manner that ''some'' photographs do. Today I was "fooled" by what looked like a photograph in the article ] but the image turned out to be a detail of a painting from 1857 by ]. Other examples would be paintings by ], ] and many others that fueled the ] agenda. | |||
Is this, used more than once, an RS? ] ] 16:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
I would like to start a conversation here whether the community thinks the captions of these images, when used in articles about Indigenous people of North America, should ''<u>specifically state</u>'' that they are paintings or painted representations of the people, events or environments they depict. ] (]) 19:47, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The |
:The page cites Hodge (1906), and I have trouble reconciling parts of the page's narrative with what I remember reading elsewhere about the Yamasee. Off hand, I would rather draw on more recent scholarly work on the Yamasee than Hodge. My impression is that "Yamasee" may have been used at different times to refer to varying groups of people, and that their origins are unclear. I am not impressed by the evidence that they originally spoke a Muskogean language. ] 17:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
== ] == | |||
:If such paintings or photos are used at all, the captions should absolutely state they might not be accurate representations. ] (]) 20:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you for the quick responses, and hope to hear from other editors as well! Yes, I agree this applies to photography also, and am familiar with the staging of photographs by the likes of ] and others. I thought we could take the discussion in stages, beginning with paintings (esp. since being recently fooled by one.) But all forms of artistic representation would apply to the same issue, including sculptures. ] (]) 20:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Shouldn't the caption say "Painting by so and so, representing ______"? ] <sub>]</sub> 20:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I think so too, @], and changed a few of the captions in the article mentioned above. But before I changed any others, I wanted to get a sense of the community's thoughts. Thank you for yours! ] (]) 20:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Good call. I wish we had more images of living Native peoples. ] (]) 21:07, 28 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
There are also things like this: which is a computer rendering. The file includes bogus geographic coordinates where the "camera" was located when it "took" the "photo". I saw it on the ] article, the caption makes no mention of it being a computer rendering. With the advent of AI and a whole generation growing up with AI, I think it is imperative to change the captions as well as the info on Commons. ] (]) 00:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
quick-link: https://meet.google.com/kfu-topq-zkd | |||
:Is it possible that is a picture of a diorama in a museum/cultural center?? That's what it looks like to me. Especially given the panel on the left. ] (]) 00:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you for the keen observation, @], I think you are right that it's a diorama. In looking at the metadata, the image was taken by a camera. I'll modify the caption to state that it is a "representation", and also add that to the file on Commons. ] (]) 00:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
A discussion item of particular interest to this WikiProject's scope (continental, not just regional) will be about ]. ] 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== There is a discussion that may be of interest to this project == | |||
== Kanawha people == | |||
There is a discussion on this talk page: ] that may be of interest to this WikiProject. Please consider joining the discussion. ] (]) 22:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
This article started out as a bad middle-school grade essay in 2008 when the article was titled "Kanawha Valley's Prehistoric people" and hasn't changed much since. In September, the article was moved to ]. I've nominated it for deletion as I cannot find any sources discussing this as a coherent topic. Passing non-scholarly references like suggest that a "Kanawha" group may have existed as a distinct people during the early colonial period, but this appears to be entirely different to the original topic of the article, and searching on scholar hasn't brought up anything significant. The input of people with expertise on Native American topics would be appreciated. Thanks. ] (]) 19:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
== New editor == | |||
I just stumbled upon ] which was uncited and very precursory. I flagged it for cleanup and added two citations. Would anyone care to add anything to it? Or should it just be deleted? ] (]) 19:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Good article reassessment for ] == | |||
] is a new editor and based on their user page and editing, interested in contributing to articles in this topic area. They have submitted a couple drafts that have been declined. I did leave them a Welcome message and a note about this WikiProject but it might be good for someone familiar with the topics to reach out. ] (]) 17:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the ]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ] (]) 22:29, 28 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== |
== Reservation map == | ||
The best reservation map on Wikimedia Commons, ] needs updating. It was created by ], who is still active, so I left a message on their talk page. Besides the five SE tribes, the Miami, Ottawa, Peoria, Quapaw, and Wyandotte nations had their reservations reaffirmed in court, and I updated ] to include those. (Apparently, that leaves out the Eastern Shawnee, Modoc, Seneca-Cayuga, and Shawnee Tribe.) Then courts ruled the ]'s and the ]'s reservations were disestablished. My understanding is McGirt only covers criminal jurisdiction but paves the way for other ramifications by ruling that the reservations were not disestablished. Were any other reservations ruled to not be disestablished post-McGirt? ], do you know about this? ] (]) 16:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:@], I make a living in Oklahoma writing about the McGirt decision so I know a little bit. I think those 10 are the ones that have been recognized as never disestablished in Oklahoma '''so far'''. There are still court cases working in the state court system (where the reservations other than the Muscogee have been recognized) so that list can change (the most likely candidates to be recognized are the "Northeast Nine" as we call them in Oklahoma. A lot of them have already been recognized). The Osage reservation will likely eventually be found intact by federal courts, but that is a few years out if it does happen. As a general rule, most tribes in the former ] reservations were explicitly disestablished by Congress, while most tribes in the former ] were never disestablished (But not a hard and fast rule). | |||
] just got a massive dump of new information, mostly in quotes from one source. I don't want to revert it, but could anybody go through and quickly organize it better than I did, and see if anything should be merged from the old article?? ] (]) 06:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Whether McGirt just applies to criminal jurisdiction is up in the air. Generally, there is no "criminal jurisdiction reservation" or "civil jurisdiction reservation" there are just the jurisdiction rules for reservations. However, Oklahoma courts are very resistant to the civil jurisdiction implications of McGirt so the state courts have been less likely to recognize civil jurisdiction. So in the short term, yes McGirt is only criminal, but long term the implications will almost certainly be civil as well unless the U.S. Supreme Court changes the federal Indian law rules. ] (]) 18:51, 29 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you so much for that detailed information! I'd like to try to update the reservation map, and perhaps the Oklahoma reservations can be just made a different color than the others. Glad that you believe the Osage Nation's reservations will like be recognized eventually. ] (]) 16:39, 30 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
:I just wrapped up what I could do for the moment. For the second pass of edits I'll have to take time to comb through the sources to assess accuracy and assign page numbers. ] (]) 18:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Appreciate it! ] (]) 21:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
This new template seems extremely problematic (arbitrary choices of individuals to include, representations of Lakota people and culture by non-Lakota people (like ]), and could likely benefit from more contributors. ] (]) 04:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Another discussion that may be of interest to this project == | |||
There is a discussion on this talk page: ] that may be of interest to this WikiProject. Please consider joining the discussion. - ] 13:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I think they probably mean the Indian University at Crazy Horse memorial, but I didn't think it's specific to just Lakota people so probably should be there anyway. ] <sub>]</sub> 15:30, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I'm not sure why we have an influx of editors that aren't familiar with basic terms.. why are editors all of a sudden all over the place interested in things they have no schooling in. The fact that we have to educate editors on the basics is odd... . I think we have editors that just run around from RFC to RFC. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 23:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::If you could look over the template, that'd be awesome. ] (]) 15:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::You should just delete the things you want removed rather than make it a discussion. ] ] <sub>]</sub> 16:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I'm not an expert on Lakota people. ] (]) 18:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Relevant discussion at Conflict of Interest noticeboard == | |||
== Template:Indigenous peoples in Washington == | |||
Hi, | |||
I created this navbox template, as Washington state was missing one: ]. Please feel free add to any related articles or feel free to add anything I forgot! Or comment if you have any ideas for sections/categories that could be added. (I was thinking about adding one of all the peoples of Washington but that's a staggeringly large amount, so I don't know yet. Maybe ill get around to it one day. ] (]) 04:03, 1 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
Just a brief note to inform members of this project about a discussion currently taking place at the conflict of interest noticeboard (here ). The issue discussed relates to the article for the ], which has written primarily by the founder of that community (JC Thompson). Concerns have also been raised that Thompson may have been pursuing an agenda in other related articles. | |||
Any assistance from members of this project would be greatly appreciated, whether in relation to views on the nature of the article content and conflict of interest, or participation in any subsequent clean up. | |||
:That's awesome! I created a redirect from ] to ]. I also created a redirect from ] to ]. Usually, when there's only one tribe, the ethnic group article and the article for the federally recognized tribe can be one and the same, like with ] or ], but if this isn't the case with Quileute, the redirect can just be temporary. Also, perhaps instead of adding all of the historical Indigenous peoples of Washing to a template, they can be added to an article like ] or ]? ] (]) 15:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I went ahead and moved ]. ] (]) 17:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
Kind regards, ] (]) 12:31, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Speaking of templates == | |||
Seeing the above discussion, I realized I had never added this project to ]. Would it be useful to keep a list of navigational templates relating to the focus of this project? - ] 21:04, 1 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
:] is helpful but probably needs renaming. ] (]) 23:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Duh! ] 23:19, 1 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I never even though to look there until you mentioned this 🤣 ] (]) 00:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
New editor whitewashing (agh, maybe a bad term?) this article, see see edit summaries, eg " Rolling Thunder's work in the public eye does not justify Oxford Universities sociological dissection of his character, life long work, nor his family tree and bloodline. Our traditional nations and people endorse Rolling Thunder as a respected Medicine Man and look to administer the necessary means to reinforce our elders and traditional people through holistic education. Spurce: Citizen of the" (I wonder how that last bit was meant to finish). ] ] 10:06, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Women in Green's October 2024 edit-a-thon == | |||
:That article always has some random account trying to whitewash it. Not sure if it's the same editors or what. ] <sub>]</sub> 14:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
<div style="border: 6px solid #2bbf08; background: #FFF; background-color:#FFFFFF; padding: 1ex 1ex 1ex 1.5ex; margin: 0px 0px 1em 1em; font-size: 99%"> | |||
] | |||
Hello WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America: | |||
== Ecuador == | |||
''']''' is holding a ''' month-long ]'''!<br /><br /> | |||
Running from October 1 to 31, 2024, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme '''Around the World in 31 Days'''! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least '''31 countries''' (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts. | |||
Is there any list of indigenous territory of Ecuador ? ] (]) 19:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
We hope to see you there! | |||
] (]) 13:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)</div> | |||
:I'm not sure what you are looking for with these repeated questions, but at the top of the History section in ], there is a link to ]. ] 23:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Just submitted ] == | |||
== ] == | |||
Hello wikipedians of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, I just submitted a draft for the '''Inter-Tribal Council of Michigan''' which I noticed is red-linked on several pages (eg. ]). I would be happy for any feedback or help improving the draft, thank you! ] (]) 14:34, 20 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
The ] article is being discussed for BLP violations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Pretendian ] <sub>]</sub> 16:34, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Mardi Gras Indians == | |||
== Office of Federal Acknowledgement == | |||
The ] article frequently uses the term "tribe" to describe these groups. Should the word tribe be removed as much as possible and replaced with another word like "group" or "organization"? Would an explanation that none of these groups are actually "tribes" be sufficient? ] (]) 04:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
I noticed that there is no article for the ] and I was wondering if it should be an article unto itself or if perhaps it should just be a redirect to the ]? But I notice that the article on the BIA doesn't mention OFA either. ] (]) 11:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Considering that every source cited in the article that I could access used "tribe", usually many times, I would say no. ] 16:49, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:] is the common term. I added scare quotes for "tribe" and information with citations to the article. ] (]) 17:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The should be called ] rather than tribes, which is the correct term. ] (]) 00:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== United Houma Nation == | |||
== ] == | |||
Noting that all information about the United Houma Nation non-profit organization is in the article for ] and ] redirects there. I think the United Houma Nation could and should be its own article. ] (]) 04:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Discussion at ] == | |||
Could use some more input as discussion has stalled, if anyone is interested. ] (]) 18:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Was someone looking for Herb Roe? == | |||
] ] 16:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Freedmen capitalization == | |||
I believe "]" should be capitalized. As of now, several articles and categories related to Freedmen are uncapitalized. See: ]. The says that Freedmen should be capitalized. Looking for other sources. The website capitalizes Freedmen. Pinging @], so we can have the discussion here. ] (]) 06:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:48, 15 January 2025
This is a WikiProject, an area for focused collaboration among Wikipedians. New participants are welcome; please feel free to participate!
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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America and anything related to its purposes and tasks. |
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Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28Auto-archiving period: 3 months |
This project page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
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The template for “Anishinaabe Culture” divided into two templates: "Anishinaabe Culture" and "Anishinaabe Politics"
IMO, these are separate topics. For the former I edited the existing template including creating more groups. For the latter I just did a copy and paste onto a new template thus it needs much additional work. --Denise B-K (talk)
Native American leaders
There is a category titled Category:Native American leaders and also a category titled Category:Titles and offices of Native American leaders. I'm not clear what the distinction is here. Maybe a merger or rename might clarify things? Or perhaps the content needs to be sorted better? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like "Titles and offices of Native American leaders" is for the titles and offices that were traditional or that are defined in formally organized tribes of the 20th and 21st centuries, while "Native American leaders" includes the people who have held such titles and offices. It can be a bit confusing, because we sometimes know of a Native American leader only by the name of the position held, as in Urriparacoxi. Even widely known names can be ambiguous. Osceola's name is an Anglicization of Asi-yahola, which was the title of a role he played, "sacred-drink caller", i.e., the one who went around
callingsummoning eligible men to participate in the ceremonial drinking of Yaupon tea. But, in many cases, we can separate the name of a leader from the title of the leadership position, and I think there is valid use for both categories. Donald Albury 18:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)- Yeah, people love categorizing everything! I don't see what purpose it serves, but it's well-populated so may as well leave as is. Yuchitown (talk) 18:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I moved some of the categories for chiefs into the Native American leaders category, for clarity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Continued harassment
Numerous individuals signed a letter to the Wikimedia Board of Trustees complaining about Misplaced Pages editors and making diverse accusations at linktr.ee/supportNACWA (the link is on Misplaced Pages's Black List, so you'll have to cut and paste). Bernard Barcena of the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas and Melissa Ferretti of the Herring Pond Wampanoag Tribe wrote individual complaints as well. Yuchitown (talk) 17:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know what happened in 2019, so can't comment on that. I can say there is no conspiracy; many editors who have edited pages of state-recognized tribes and unrecognized organizations aren't even part of WP INPA. I'm well-versed on the complexity of Native identity and the nature of Native American tribes and unrecognized organizations and back my content up with secondary, published citations.
- Perhaps more experienced editors and administrators from the greater Misplaced Pages community can help convince these individuals that this is an encyclopedia and controversial content needs to be cited. An individual doesn't get to own an article about their organization to promote its POV. Citations from a group's own website, other self-published writing, or Facebook cannot be used to cite controversial edits.
- Indigenous identity is a controversial and contested topic in real life. Like any encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages covers controversial topics. I'm sure acupuncturists don't appreciate it that the acupuncture article calls it "quackery" in its opening paragraph.
- Everyone is welcome to edit regardless of their background; however, Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest editing is problematic. The only individual prevented from editing are those who have been blocked due to egregious breaking of Misplaced Pages protocols, such as sockpuppetry.
- In real life – not Misplaced Pages – Native Americans need to prove their identity constantly. We have to show our CDIB cards to access Indian Health Services. We have to show our tribal IDs to vote, to access tribal housing, to apply for Indian-preference hiring, to apply to certain tribal colleges, to apply for certain grants earmarked for Native Americans, to exhibit and sell artwork as a Native American, to prove our Native American status in the Healthcare Marketplace, to register our tribal license plates, to obtain hunting permits, etc. The idea that Native identity is accepted without question is demonstratively false.
- I agree that Native topics should be treated like all others, which means reliable sources. I would like the larger Wikimedia community to learn about Native topics and place more of these state-recognized tribe and unrecognized organization articles on their watchlists.
- You'll note that established tribes articles don't generate controversy. I wish this kind of time and energy could be applied to topics in Indian Country on Misplaced Pages. Yuchitown (talk) 17:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I question that you "back content up with secondary, published citations" considering what you are advocating for in the in the Norby BLP Noticeboard and Self-identify categories CfD discussions, where many users have noted articles you and other IPNA members edit are full of OR and BLP violations which do not rely on RL like secondary sources, and frequently outright contradict RL. I agree I wish Wikipedians understood more about Native people, but if we are going to treat Native people equally that also means we adhere to sourcing and BLP rules, especially to avoid things like libel lawsuits against Misplaced Pages. And to adhere to academic integrity in general. Publishing things on Misplaced Pages that RL sources do not say isn't appropriate, and clearly these tribes have noticed they are treated differently on wikipedia than everyone else based on their race, ethnicity, and citizenship. Many users are not part of IPNA because it is used to promote OR and BLP violations - why would someone who cares about an accurate and quality encyclopedia that fairly and expertly covers Native topics put themselves under a banner that champions the opposite? It is also not harrassment for the tribes to contact the WMF with their concerns, Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons says at the top of the page "If you have a complaint about a biography of a living person, and you wish to contact the Wikimedia Foundation, see contact us." This is standard Misplaced Pages process, especially if you don't want them contributing to their own pages. Pingnova (talk) 18:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- You'll note that everyone here complied with the consensus reached in the discussion. I do not participate in original research on Misplaced Pages. Yes, spreading conspiracy theories on websites is harrassment. Yuchitown (talk) 18:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- What conspiracy theory are you talking about? If it's the OR and BLP concerns editors have with you and IPNA, I included two links above about that, so it is certainly not a conspiracy theory. And a letter signed by official tribal and organization reps sent specifically to WMF per standard Misplaced Pages process is also not a conspiracy theory nor harrassment. Pingnova (talk) 19:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- We, the undersigned sovereign Native nations have been targeted by a distinct group of Misplaced Pages users who are enabled and protected by the administrative structure of Misplaced Pages. These users push a harmful fringe agenda that redefines Native people in a way that differs from both Misplaced Pages’s standards on ethnic identity and institutions which have authority in the area of Native identity like the United Nations, the United States federal government, and Native tribes and institutions themselves. ...
- Since 2019 these agendist users have openly flaunted Misplaced Pages standards of verification and identity by using original research and synthesis to create a harmful litmus test for which Misplaced Pages subjects are considered Indigenous Americans and First Nations (Indigenous Canadian) individuals or nations. These assessments are not supported by any form of scholarship, nor by the field of Indian Law, which is the usual forum for questions of legal Native identity.
- The system these users invented implements a form of digital genocide that erases Native people by falsely labeling individuals and tribes as “self-identifying,” implying that these real Native people are “pretendians” or fake Natives and treating all Native people with suspicion by default. Most of these users appear to be ideologically aligned with a fringe and extreme political group called the Tribal Alliance Against Frauds (TAAF), a self-published primary source they sometimes reference in Misplaced Pages articles on targeted tribes and individuals.
- Yuchitown (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- What conspiracy theory are you talking about? If it's the OR and BLP concerns editors have with you and IPNA, I included two links above about that, so it is certainly not a conspiracy theory. And a letter signed by official tribal and organization reps sent specifically to WMF per standard Misplaced Pages process is also not a conspiracy theory nor harrassment. Pingnova (talk) 19:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- You'll note that everyone here complied with the consensus reached in the discussion. I do not participate in original research on Misplaced Pages. Yes, spreading conspiracy theories on websites is harrassment. Yuchitown (talk) 18:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I question that you "back content up with secondary, published citations" considering what you are advocating for in the in the Norby BLP Noticeboard and Self-identify categories CfD discussions, where many users have noted articles you and other IPNA members edit are full of OR and BLP violations which do not rely on RL like secondary sources, and frequently outright contradict RL. I agree I wish Wikipedians understood more about Native people, but if we are going to treat Native people equally that also means we adhere to sourcing and BLP rules, especially to avoid things like libel lawsuits against Misplaced Pages. And to adhere to academic integrity in general. Publishing things on Misplaced Pages that RL sources do not say isn't appropriate, and clearly these tribes have noticed they are treated differently on wikipedia than everyone else based on their race, ethnicity, and citizenship. Many users are not part of IPNA because it is used to promote OR and BLP violations - why would someone who cares about an accurate and quality encyclopedia that fairly and expertly covers Native topics put themselves under a banner that champions the opposite? It is also not harrassment for the tribes to contact the WMF with their concerns, Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons says at the top of the page "If you have a complaint about a biography of a living person, and you wish to contact the Wikimedia Foundation, see contact us." This is standard Misplaced Pages process, especially if you don't want them contributing to their own pages. Pingnova (talk) 18:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- This is pretty much the same stuff as in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Archive 26#This WikiProject has been mentioned off-wiki, isn't it? I didn't look into the details and I'm not involved in this project / subject, so please correct me if I'm mistaken. Or just ignore my comment. Or whatever. :-) — Chrisahn (talk) 00:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- You're correct. Same talking points, just with more fervor. Yuchitown (talk) 01:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Two of the named individuals resigned their sysop rights under a cloud and one additional editor marked themselves as "retired" during an ArbCom case in 2023 over suspected meatpuppetry. Combining that with the damning evidence presented in AN around topics within IPNA scope suggest that previous discussions may be subjected to interference and that some editors' voices were shut out of the very conversation which impacts their identity. And sidebar for a moment, I know that the conversation is more towards Americans, but for Indigenous Canadians, Superior Court of Canada had ruled that Non-status Indian have equal rights as those with status. Yet the essay on "Determining Native American and Indigenous Canadian identities" only mentions it in passing on the second-last sentence of this 4900+ words page. OhanaUnited 14:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Skimmed the Tumblr posts when they were initially released, but I don't recall them naming Mark Ironie. Indigenous Girl wasn't accused of anything specifically. No one was blocked; they were just fed up. I don't know how "damning" anything is. Seems like if you want to suggest an edit to WP:NDNID, that talk page would be better. Yuchitown (talk) 03:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- Two of the named individuals resigned their sysop rights under a cloud and one additional editor marked themselves as "retired" during an ArbCom case in 2023 over suspected meatpuppetry. Combining that with the damning evidence presented in AN around topics within IPNA scope suggest that previous discussions may be subjected to interference and that some editors' voices were shut out of the very conversation which impacts their identity. And sidebar for a moment, I know that the conversation is more towards Americans, but for Indigenous Canadians, Superior Court of Canada had ruled that Non-status Indian have equal rights as those with status. Yet the essay on "Determining Native American and Indigenous Canadian identities" only mentions it in passing on the second-last sentence of this 4900+ words page. OhanaUnited 14:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- You're correct. Same talking points, just with more fervor. Yuchitown (talk) 01:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Traditional ecological knowledge and traditional knowledge discussion at WP:FTN
There is a thread at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard about the articles traditional ecological knowledge and traditional knowledge that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Please consider joining the discussion. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Métis Nation of Ontario
What is the official status of the Métis Nation of Ontario within Canada? The article claims it is officially recognized by the Canadian government, but that is unclear to me. The claim that this group descends from the Red River Métis is sourced from the website of the organization itself, so not a reliable source. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- R v Powley https://www.canada.ca/en/crown-indigenous-relations-northern-affairs/news/2023/02/recognizing-and-implementing-metis-nation-self-government-in-ontario.html Moxy🍁 01:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
Move proposal
Talk:List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes#Requested move 25 October 2024. Yuchitown (talk) 00:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Education project
A class will be editing some articles related to this project (see Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Linn_Benton_Community_College/Introduction_to_Indigenous_North_America_(Fall_2024)). I'm sure they will appreciate any help we can give them. Donald Albury 19:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- Right on! I always wish they'd pick smaller, more neglected topics than the huge, main ones, but more eyes are always helpful. Yuchitown (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- Too true! So many little articles are stubs or could badly use a rewrite! PersusjCP (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Self-identification
I don't believe I'm allowed to comment at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Discussion_concerning_Bohemian_Baltimore, but obviously there's been a concerted effort to remove any use of variations of terms relating to "self-identification" in relation to Native American identity on Misplaced Pages. My understanding is this term is offensive in LGBTQ+ communities in the context of gender, sex, and sexual oritentation. However, "self-identification" is widely used in published literature about Native American identity, which is fundamentally a collective identity, not an individual identity. Unfortunately, the mainstream public has a massive knowledge gap about what Native American tribes are today or what Native American identity constitutes, which is why published citations from informed sources are so necessary. The phenomenon of non-Native people mistakenly or falsely claiming Native identity is so widespread in the United States that entire books and academic journals have been written about it (and are widely cited throughout Misplaced Pages). Several are cited in Cherokee descent#Reasons for self-identification without citizenship or social recognition. This is just background context.
The term self-identification does not mean "fraud". It means exactly how the Merriam-Webster defines it, "identification with someone or something outside oneself" . When an individual makes a statement of Indigenous identity, they have self-identified. (Sometimes people eligible to enroll as tribal citizens do not self-identify; that is possible.) I'm going to list examples of the use of the term in secondary, published literature about Native American identity below. I truly wish people who want to police Native American articles would read some of the widely available scholarly literature about Native American identity and tribes. Yuchitown (talk) 15:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- "To be or not to be American: Statehood and Peoplehood in Native American Self-identification during the Self-determination era"
- "American Indian casinos and the Rise of Self-Identification"
- "An examination of self-identity, sense of connection, and membership of individuals with Native American ancestry"
- "Self-Identification in Black, Red, Brown, and White: A Clarion Call to Address Medical Racism in Native American Communities"
- "The expression 'self-identified Indian' is sometimes used to refer to anyone who does not satisfy the requirements specifically of legal definitions."
- "A Native American may not self-identify as American Indian if he/she is currently not in a position to contribute to the tribe."Native Americans & HIV
- "Vizenor's, on the other hand, was published in 1988, in the midst of a Native American renewal that has seen a threefold increase in the number of self-identified Native Americans in recent decades." American Indian Persistence and Resurgence
- "The cultural significance of the current numbers, and the various social, political, and methodological reasons for the dramatic increase in self-identification as Native American will, no doubt, continue to be an object of considerable interest." Defining Native American
- "There is considerable variation and fluidity in how multiracial, Hispanic, and Native Americans self-identify, as well as how they are classified by others." Establishing the Demonimator: The Challenges of Measuring Multiracial, Hispanic, and Native American Populations
- "This has placed a substantial burden on definitions for legal purposes and tribal affiliation and on American Indians trying to self-identify within multiple cultural contexts." American Indian Identity and Blood Quantum in the 21st Century: A Critical Review. Yuchitown (talk) 15:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- Oh good grief! @Yuchitown, maybe you could ask one of the Arb clerks if it's OK to post there or ask on the talk page Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement if you can provide this evidence/examples/sources and/or make a comment. Netherzone (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- "Self-Identification is an Exercise of Self-Determination", U.S. Department of the Interior
- Indian Issues: Federal Funding for Non-Federally Recognized Tribes (2012), "Non-federally recognized tribes fall into two distinct categories: (1) state-recognized tribes that are not also federally recognized and (2) other groups that self-identify as Indian tribes but are neither federally nor state recognized."
- Fresh Five: Native Plants, "Indigenous peoples in the US generally self-identify as tribes, though some groups use nation or band."
- "In A New Borderlands World: Indigenous Rationales for Supporting Early Mission Communities", p. 235, "Despite this, many Native political organizations and communities in Massachusetts self-identify as tribes today."
- Yuchitown (talk) 22:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Great additions, @Yuchitown to the roster of sources. Here are some others that may be useful to the project that are from the NA law draft I'm working on (sorry for any duplicates). Links are in footnotes
- Identification
- Indigenous identity, being, and belonging
- Native American identity in the United States
- Warren, Trump, and the Question of Native American Identity, (Harvard Law Review)
- Santa Clara Pueblo v. Martinez, 436 U.S. 49 (1978)
- Tribes are sovereign governments (nations), not racial classifications
- Citizenship
- Native American Citizenship
- The Politics of Inclusion: Indigenous Peoples and U.S. Citizenship, by Rebecca Tsosie (UCLA Law Review)
- Native American identity in the United States
- Determining Native American and Indigenous Canadian identities (WP:IPNA essay)
- Oh good grief! @Yuchitown, maybe you could ask one of the Arb clerks if it's OK to post there or ask on the talk page Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement if you can provide this evidence/examples/sources and/or make a comment. Netherzone (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
References
- Gonzales, Angela A.; Kertész, Judy (Summer 2020). "Indigenous identity, being, and belonging". Contexts. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- "Santa Clara Pueblo v. Martinez, 436 U.S. 49 (1978)". Justia: U.S. Supreme Court. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- "Tribes are governments, not racial classifications". Indian Law Resource Center. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- Malloy, Kerry (30 July 2024). "US citizenship was forced on Native Americans 100 years ago − its promise remains elusive". Alaska Beacon. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- "Why the federal government needs to change how it collects data on Native Americans". Brookings Institute. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- "Tribal Nations and the United States". National Congress of American Indians. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- Vance, Austin R. "For the Children: Indian Status Is a Political Classification". Oklahoma Bar Association. Oklahoma Bar Journal. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- Gampa, Vikas; Bernard, Kenneth; Oldani, Michael J. "Racialization as a Barrier to Achieving Health Equity for Native Americans". AMA Journal of Ethics. American Medical Association. Retrieved 11 November 2024.
- "Morton v. Mancari, 417 U.S. 535 (1974)". U.S. Supreme Court.
- Kimberly TallBear (2003). "DNA, Blood, and Racializing the Tribe". Wíčazo Ša Review. 18 (1). University of Minnesota Press: 81–107. doi:10.1353/wic.2003.0008. JSTOR 140943. S2CID 201778441.
- Furukawa, Julia (11 November 2024). "Review of genealogies, other records fails to support local leaders' claims of Abenaki ancestry". New Hampshire Public Radio. Retrieved 7 July 2023.
Category:Seneca clans has been nominated for merging and renaming to Category:Iroquois clans
Category:Seneca clans, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merging and renaming to Category:Iroquois clans. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. 69.159.15.16 (talk) 09:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Native American and First Nations law resources
I have added a new section in our IPNA main page on Native American and First Nations law resources with subsections for the U.S. and Canada. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America#Native American and First Nations law resources These resources may prove helpful to participants of this project in finding and researching Indian law and legal issues regarding tribal recognition, citizenship, enrollment, repatriation, environmental justice issues and sacred places protection. This is just a start, please feel free to add to the list of resources. Netherzone (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Brilliant! Thank you so much. Yuchitown (talk) 02:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- I went ahead and started a user page draft in preparation to create a list article: User:Netherzone/List_of_Native_American_and_First_Nations_law_resources - Feel free to contribute to it!
- It would be wonderful if interested participants and members of this WikiProject help to improve it before it's moved to article space. I've just begun to scratch the surface of this vast topic, there is so much more to add. These resources are useful for research, article improvements and in seeking consensus on content disputes.
- Also wondering if there should be two list articles, one for Native American, Native Hawaiian and Native Alaskan, and another for First Nations. Any feedback or thoughts are welcome. Netherzone (talk) 16:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Yamasee
Is this, used more than once, an RS? Doug Weller talk 16:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- The page cites Hodge (1906), and I have trouble reconciling parts of the page's narrative with what I remember reading elsewhere about the Yamasee. Off hand, I would rather draw on more recent scholarly work on the Yamasee than Hodge. My impression is that "Yamasee" may have been used at different times to refer to varying groups of people, and that their origins are unclear. I am not impressed by the evidence that they originally spoke a Muskogean language. Donald Albury 17:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Meetup/US Mountain West/2024-11-12
quick-link: https://meet.google.com/kfu-topq-zkd
A discussion item of particular interest to this WikiProject's scope (continental, not just regional) will be about metawiki:North American Wikimedians/Hub founding. Arlo James Barnes 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Kanawha people
This article started out as a bad middle-school grade essay in 2008 when the article was titled "Kanawha Valley's Prehistoric people" and hasn't changed much since. In September, the article was moved to Kanawha people. I've nominated it for deletion as I cannot find any sources discussing this as a coherent topic. Passing non-scholarly references like suggest that a "Kanawha" group may have existed as a distinct people during the early colonial period, but this appears to be entirely different to the original topic of the article, and searching on scholar hasn't brought up anything significant. The input of people with expertise on Native American topics would be appreciated. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Tribal council (United States)
I just stumbled upon Tribal council (United States) which was uncited and very precursory. I flagged it for cleanup and added two citations. Would anyone care to add anything to it? Or should it just be deleted? Yuchitown (talk) 19:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Good article reassessment for Overhill Cherokee
Overhill Cherokee has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 22:29, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Reservation map
The best reservation map on Wikimedia Commons, File:Indian reservations in the Continental United States.png needs updating. It was created by User:Presidentman, who is still active, so I left a message on their talk page. Besides the five SE tribes, the Miami, Ottawa, Peoria, Quapaw, and Wyandotte nations had their reservations reaffirmed in court, and I updated Indian reservation to include those. (Apparently, that leaves out the Eastern Shawnee, Modoc, Seneca-Cayuga, and Shawnee Tribe.) Then courts ruled the Osage Nation's and the Cheyenne-Arapaho's reservations were disestablished. My understanding is McGirt only covers criminal jurisdiction but paves the way for other ramifications by ruling that the reservations were not disestablished. Were any other reservations ruled to not be disestablished post-McGirt? User:TulsaPoliticsFan, do you know about this? Yuchitown (talk) 16:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Yuchitown, I make a living in Oklahoma writing about the McGirt decision so I know a little bit. I think those 10 are the ones that have been recognized as never disestablished in Oklahoma so far. There are still court cases working in the state court system (where the reservations other than the Muscogee have been recognized) so that list can change (the most likely candidates to be recognized are the "Northeast Nine" as we call them in Oklahoma. A lot of them have already been recognized). The Osage reservation will likely eventually be found intact by federal courts, but that is a few years out if it does happen. As a general rule, most tribes in the former Oklahoma Territory reservations were explicitly disestablished by Congress, while most tribes in the former Indian Territory were never disestablished (But not a hard and fast rule).
- Whether McGirt just applies to criminal jurisdiction is up in the air. Generally, there is no "criminal jurisdiction reservation" or "civil jurisdiction reservation" there are just the jurisdiction rules for reservations. However, Oklahoma courts are very resistant to the civil jurisdiction implications of McGirt so the state courts have been less likely to recognize civil jurisdiction. So in the short term, yes McGirt is only criminal, but long term the implications will almost certainly be civil as well unless the U.S. Supreme Court changes the federal Indian law rules. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 18:51, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you so much for that detailed information! I'd like to try to update the reservation map, and perhaps the Oklahoma reservations can be just made a different color than the others. Glad that you believe the Osage Nation's reservations will like be recognized eventually. Yuchitown (talk) 16:39, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Template:Lakota people
This new template seems extremely problematic (arbitrary choices of individuals to include, representations of Lakota people and culture by non-Lakota people (like Crazy Horse Memorial), and could likely benefit from more contributors. Yuchitown (talk) 04:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think they probably mean the Indian University at Crazy Horse memorial, but I didn't think it's specific to just Lakota people so probably should be there anyway. oncamera (talk page) 15:30, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- If you could look over the template, that'd be awesome. Yuchitown (talk) 15:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- You should just delete the things you want removed rather than make it a discussion. WP:BOLD oncamera (talk page) 16:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on Lakota people. Yuchitown (talk) 18:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- You should just delete the things you want removed rather than make it a discussion. WP:BOLD oncamera (talk page) 16:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- If you could look over the template, that'd be awesome. Yuchitown (talk) 15:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Relevant discussion at Conflict of Interest noticeboard
Hi, Just a brief note to inform members of this project about a discussion currently taking place at the conflict of interest noticeboard (here ). The issue discussed relates to the article for the Mount Tabor Indian Community, which has written primarily by the founder of that community (JC Thompson). Concerns have also been raised that Thompson may have been pursuing an agenda in other related articles.
Any assistance from members of this project would be greatly appreciated, whether in relation to views on the nature of the article content and conflict of interest, or participation in any subsequent clean up.
Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 12:31, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Rolling Thunder (person)
New editor whitewashing (agh, maybe a bad term?) this article, see see edit summaries, eg " Rolling Thunder's work in the public eye does not justify Oxford Universities sociological dissection of his character, life long work, nor his family tree and bloodline. Our traditional nations and people endorse Rolling Thunder as a respected Medicine Man and look to administer the necessary means to reinforce our elders and traditional people through holistic education. Spurce: Citizen of the" (I wonder how that last bit was meant to finish). Doug Weller talk 10:06, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- That article always has some random account trying to whitewash it. Not sure if it's the same editors or what. oncamera (talk page) 14:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Ecuador
Is there any list of indigenous territory of Ecuador ? Kaiyr (talk) 19:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you are looking for with these repeated questions, but at the top of the History section in Ecuador, there is a link to Indigenous peoples in Ecuador. Donald Albury 23:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Pretendian
The Pretendian article is being discussed for BLP violations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Pretendian oncamera (talk page) 16:34, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Office of Federal Acknowledgement
I noticed that there is no article for the Office of Federal Acknowledgement and I was wondering if it should be an article unto itself or if perhaps it should just be a redirect to the Bureau of Indian Affairs? But I notice that the article on the BIA doesn't mention OFA either. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
United Houma Nation
Noting that all information about the United Houma Nation non-profit organization is in the article for Houma people and United Houma Nation redirects there. I think the United Houma Nation could and should be its own article. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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