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Note: Mostly over at '''''' Note: Mostly over at ''''''


== ''The Signpost'': 15 January 2025 ==
== Merge ==


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2025-01-15}} </div><!--Volume 21, Issue 1--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 07:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
Hello! Should ] be merged into ]? ] (]) 16:41, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
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:Not sure... ] (] · ] · ]) 18:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you. Perhaps a redirect would be better? I dunno, its pretty far outside my wheelhouse. Also, have you seen ]? They are setting these students up to fail because they get assigned topics that already have an article. 4 people including myself have tried to explain that writing MEDRS articles is not a good beginner task. Perhaps you can help? I still have nightmares from the time I cleaned up after a WikiEdu course. ] (]) 18:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Mostly over at ] in part as EN WP is not supportive / actively prevents the development of multilingual content. We have managed to rebuild the workflow without EN WP though. Agree that use of AI would be a concern. ] (] · ] · ]) 19:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
::::You know a lot about medicine, I (unfortunately) have spent an unhealthy amount of time on a computer. I put my trust in a doctor, you put your trust in a nerd. I understand feeling discouraged, and you obviously trust the person who said the only option was to ], but as a nerd I have to say that that decision didn't make much sense, although I ''do'' understand the emotion surrounding it. Sometimes people get stuck, having one solution to a problem in mind, and then when that one solution doesn't work out they get really discouraged and see no other option than to leave. But usually there are many solutions to a problem. In this case the ] was doomed to fail, and it was silly to even attempt it, but that didn't actually matter because there were other (better) ways to achieve your goals. A "my way or the highway"-mentality rarely works out well on Misplaced Pages. Since that was apparently ] it may be wise to reconsider how much trust you put in which person. ] (]) 19:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::That was just one among many reasons. I have made nearly 50,000 edits to MDWiki since mostly moving their 4 years back. I find I am now much more productive.
:::::Plus those who understand English have tons of excellent medical resources to choose from. Those who do not have few or none. As a global public health effort I prefer to concentrate on the later. By the way always happy to have more good faith collaborators their :-) ] (] · ] · ]) 20:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, I hope you forgive me for not doing a deep dive into ''all'' the reasons. {{smiley|5}} I just think that particular one is not strong. I was impressed by the amount of work that has been done on mdwiki. I understand English (on a good day) but not medicine. ] (]) 05:07, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::No worries. Yah classes of students are a LOT of work... I am around here a bit but try to stay out of controversies. ] (] · ] · ]) 05:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::May I ask what led you to shift your effort to MDWiki instead of continuing with Misplaced Pages?] (]) 19:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Sure, it was a few things:
:::::::::# One of my interests is supporting the development of healthcare content in other languages. Those who read English have many great sources online; however, this is not the case for most other languages. EN WP is not supportive of translation in that a) some disagree with using easier to understand language in the lead b) some disagree with having references in the leads of articles c) EN WP does not even permit the use of workspaces on the site for translation d) the WMF is not interested in altering software to support translation of health content and without our own site we struggled to deal with a number of issues with references
:::::::::# Many within EN WP were against the inclusion of video and drove away a number of partners we had with respect to video. I consider video to be of importance for those with a lower reading skill or simply a different way in which they wish to learn. We have thus keep going.
:::::::::# Undisclosed paid editing is often passively and sometimes actively allowed to continue here. When an obvious paid sock a few years back brought a case to ANI they received support. When a realtor was using EN WP to write articles about buildings they were selling and threatened to cross the border to harm me, arbcom supported them. Thankfully I have a working relationship with my local police force who stated they would prevent them from crossing the border, at least for a time. Not interested in dealing with these sorts of issues.
:::::::::# I consider the costs of healthcare to be of importance, including in areas of the world other than the United States when certain medications make the NYTs. Sources from the World Health Organization were deemed insufficient to support such discussion and arbcom has placed against me an editing restriction with respect to this. As such I generally do not edit healthcare content here.
:::::::::# Before I split off I was spending much of my time reviewing other work, rather than writing / creating content myself. ] had a group of those with the condition altering the wording so that it was no longer supported by the references provided. An individual funded by pharma was trying to and has now succeeded in removing cardiac concerns with respect to a very expensive med.
:::::::::# Some of my main collaborators left due to issues of incivility / paid editing. I also had an editor who followed me around to disrupt projects I was working on. They even attempted to follow me to MDWiki.
:::::::::# Finally a few years back during some dark times I began to consider it prudent for us as a movement to have a fully editable version of Misplaced Pages nearly ready to go if things "went South". And for us to build community skills around running such a site. Currently MDWiki has about 7000 local articles and mirrors the other 7 million or so. It would not take much to pull in these mirrored articles and their histories. But thankfully those dark times have faded into history, at least for now.
:::::::::Anyway it was a good move for me. I find I am much more productive. It allows me to working on tools like the , the , the , and without disruption. If versions of Misplaced Pages wish to collaborate and adopt these tools am happy to work with them. Additionally it does not tie my work to any specific language version. Happy to have more collaborators :-) ] (] · ] · ]) 01:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Phew. Thanks for explaining how some of the sausage is made. I've had several extremely similar situations over the years.
::::::::::Your concerns probably explain why so many medical specialties have created their own specialized wikis -- because of the difficulty that highly trained professionals encounter when trying to edit through the red tape here. If professionals are volunteering to edit, they're giving up extremely valuable free time. In situations like these, the most valuable editors get bullied off the site. It's unfortunate as I think the cross breeding of ideas that this place inspires is more effective the larger the audience. Ultimately it will come full circle as the specialized wikis merge, or their advertising or subscription fees become too expensive and the main Misplaced Pages's editing hurdles are worked out. This may not happen in our lifetimes.
::::::::::In the interim, I admire your grace under fire amidst the feeling of burn out. The interface between the general public, computer programmers and medical professionals on this site can certainly be awkward at times. I can only imagine the number of situations where people pulled you, willingly or not, into the crossfire.
::::::::::Having an outside "backup" of Misplaced Pages is an excellent idea in case it is ever privatized, falls under government censorship or is effectively infiltrated by outside interests.
::::::::::On a personal note, it's always a pleasure to write with you and it is remarkable how you leveraged this website to positively impact the lives of hundreds of millions, if not billions of people around the world. I will do my best to contribute to your efforts over there and hope you can spare some time back here at the general county mosh pit down the line. ] (]) 02:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Another thing I discovered is that running a Wiki really does not cost that much... MDWiki has no fees and no adverts and is run by an NGO. ] (] · ] · ]) 02:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

== Norovirus#Vaccine_trials ==

This needs updating. Do you have journal access in order to back up claimes being made in the UK media?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/worlds-first-norovirus-vaccine-set-to-be-trialled-by-nhs-to-combat-winter-vomiti/<br>
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/world-first-vaccine-for-vomiting-bug-norovirus-trialled-in-the-uk/ar-AA1sJTQ2

The claims seem to relate to Phase 3 trials in the United Kingdom. ] (]) 17:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

:I personally do not see the need for review articles to discuss this. The popular press IMO is just fine as one is just stating that a trial is about to begin, not making any medical claims ] ] (] · ] · ]) 07:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
::Found one review and it is under an open license. ] (] · ] · ]) 08:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

== Uploading images to Wikimedia from open source journal articles ==
Quick question about protocol for medical images -- are we allowed to upload images from open source scientific journals to Wikimedia? If so, is there anything we need to do beyond giving the article's reference in the description? ] (]) 19:46, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

:Yes we can as long as they are CC BY or CC BY SA. For NC and ND licensed images you can upload them here to . Nothing special from a pt consent POV as it is assumed that the journal itself takes care of that. Have been thinking of doing a mass upload at some point. ] (] · ] · ]) 00:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

::Very helpful, thank you. ] (]) 02:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

== Top 100 medical calculators ==
Copied from ]:

:::::Plan to do the top 100 medical calculators in December. Would love to have your help. ] (] · ] · ]) 07:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::Ha ha ha, that would be a great honour! Happy to see you appreciate my design.
::::::Without any false modesty: I think the calculator design already outclasses the commercial version. The user interface looks so simple, but there is quite a bit of processing going on under the hood to get to the right silhouette and ] which ].
::::::And... it will get even better as it does not deal yet with fine-tuning for male-female, age, ... differences.
::::::] is ] to explain the ]. Work in progress: ]
::::::Gender, age won't impact the WHtR and BRI computations but
::::::* ]
::::::* will impact the health level text
::::::* it will also impact the background color.
::::::What would you like me to do? What can I do to help you? ] (]) 08:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Will let you know when I am back and working on it. We need a eGFR calculator, we need one to switch between America and IU for blood sugar, etc, etc. ] (] · ] · ]) 08:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
{{odd}}

Good. Be warned: my medical knowledge is limited, almost non existent. I have very limited experience in working with medics.

You already lost me with terms as eGFR, IU. I've heard about blood sugar, but don't know much about it. So I will need a lot of input for medical terms, formulas, translations from jargon to plain language, etc, etc.

Be aware that design takes time, sweet time. It is hard to design simple things. Something easy like a body roundness calculator can take weeks, for just two input variables. And that is when I have time to spare.

What can be done quite fast: evaluate a current design.
* What is good about it?
* How can it be improved?

Warning: I apply function psychology in my designs,
* the way humans process information dictates the design. No room to discuss the information processing cycle: observe, interpret, learn, think, act and back to observe, interpret, ...
* Science is leading, well defined qualities and limitations of the human eye, brain, hands dictate the design. A design should be tailored to humans, not vice versa.
* I will ignore the usual personal preferences, opinions, etc with remarks like: Mate how interesting, I think you should go and tell someone who cares!

The term {{search link|function psychology}} seems unknown in the English Misplaced Pages, well the whole English speaking world. There are bits and pieces of design theory coming from people like ], ], ], the late ] and his son ], ], ]. But names like ] and {{search link|Leonard Verhoef}} are almost unknown.

So well... you may be in for a few surprises. Working with me may be tough, no guarantees, but happy to give it a go. ] (]) 09:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

:IU is international units… GFR is glomerular filtration rate. We can see how it goes. ] (] · ] · ]) 09:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
::Ha ha ha, asif 'glomerular filtration rate' is plain English, not incomprehensible medical jargon to me. Sorry, but my medical knowledge is very limited indeed. ] (]) 21:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
::Smile, I looked up ] in Misplaced Pages.
::The first sentence is reads for me as:
::"*** functions include maintaining an ***; regulating fluid balance; regulating ***, ***, and other ***;"
::I am already lost at the very first word and it does not have a hyperlink to another page.
::It has something to do with regulating fluid levels, but I am completely clueless what kind of fluids that would be. ] (]) 21:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
=== out of the woods? ===
When you are out of the woods, please have a look at:

1. Some documentation for the calculator at:
]
I expect the design approach for other medical applications to be similar:
* Let the computer do all the number crunching, focus on human efficiency, not computer efficiency.
* show categories based on patient values, generally speaking ranging from deadly to healthy.
* in an environment outside wikipedia patient values are probably digitally available. Maybe even with a history. Mrs. Jones, things look a lot better for you than last month!
:Related ]
<p>
2. A design for a Body Roundness calculator, no input required, zero,
just look at the chart, use height for Y axes, waist for X:
]
And yes, it does support both metric and imperial, without any input. Look mum, no hands!
<p>
3. An idea for something similar, with 2 input variables, unit indepenent:
]
That design is beyond calculator possibilities at the moment.
<p>
4. A nasty bug in calculator 4.0. I can't find anything wrong in my own code,
suspect that the calculator already hits a limit of formula propagation
]
test it out yourself at
]
The calculator has a lot of hidden fields.
A developer may want to see them all for debuging, change CSS class 'obscured' from
display: none
to
display: inline
to see all of the calculator fields.
Be warned: there are a lot of formulas here at work, which eh... well cause the bug.
Change 'class=obscured' for a row in the wikicode to see just some intermediate values.
] (]) 23:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

:Away for a few weeks. Have asked Brian to look at that bug. ] (] · ] · ]) 00:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
::G'd on ya, thanks! That bug is kind of a worry at the moment. That limit could really f*** things up when calculators get complex using more than 2 input fields.
::As a reward, here is an idea for a brandnew state of the art medical tool for a check on central adiposity against WHtR no-health-worries upper limit of 0.5. (ha ha ha, that is about the max medical jargon I know)
::Here we go:
::# take a piece of string equal to your height. If no string available, an old cloth will do fine too.
::# try to wrap it around your waist twice
::# too short? Bad news mate, you have health risks because of increased central adiposity, as defined at ]
::Smile... this method was reverted from the WHtR page, because of some Misplaced Pages policy.
::Do you know anybody in the medical world that could publish this method in a reliable source after an official peer review? That would be just too deadly!
::And it is just too easy. A 3 year old in outback Australia would have checked the adiposity of the whole community against the NICE 0.5 WHtR limit while the western doctors are still struggling with the BRI formulas because their smartphone battery is dead, with no electricity in sight for a recharge. And I have yet to see classifications for BRI values. To me this is silly. How can you use meaningless numbers? The 3 year old will have 2 simple classifications:
::* good
::* too fat
::A kind that is a few years older may invent a method of checking the lower WHtR limit of 0.4 by some fancy folding of the excess bit of string against the rest of it. Look mum, no batteries and uncle XYZ is too lean!
::I really wonder. Why would anybody use BRI over WHtR?
::Can't they see they are related and WHtR is just to easy.
::A tool used during debugging that caused a bit of turmoil, the WHtR to BRI converter here on the right.
::]
::While you are at it, how about a peer review for that converter? ha ha ha.
::Some other issues where a medic can help:
::# Any reliable source for a classification of a WHtR value below 0.4? Currently the Calculator 4.0 displays an error message, because it lacks a NICE classification.
::# How about using Zang's mortality graph for colour gradients behind silhouettes. See 2nd level of pyramid, right hand block of ]
::I've used Zang's graph for previous set of colours too, which were BRI based, with a terrible overlap against BMI classes.
::]
::And yes the calculator has a risk level, based on NICE classes at ]
::Now health risk and chance of dying might be very correlated, but health risk and dying are two different concepts.
::The line mortality graph would be perfect for a mapping to colour gradients.
::See colour work in progress at ]
::I think a green to dark red gradient would work great for the lower end of the scale. Please feel welcome to join in and get the discussion on colours going again, as it has been stuck in the mud for quite some time now.
::{{clear}} ] (]) 01:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

=== That’s 2 small steps in a sandbox, 1 giant leap for mankind. ===

{{Template:Body_roundness_index/sandbox}}
# unit-less input for height and weight. Any unit, a piece of string will do.
# play with WHtR to find healthy waist size.

Please:
# Record the start time with accuracy in seconds
# Enter your own height
# Find a healthy waist size
# Record the end time
# How long did it take you, including the learning curve?

Next:
# Record time again and try to find a healthy waist size for some friend or family.
# How long did it take you, without the learning curve?

Final:
# How long does it take you to do this with the commercial tool?

I think the calculator just overtook the commercial calculator by a miles length, 1.60934 km for people using metric system. But who gives a s*** about units :D

Are there any serious competitors for the top 100? ] (]) 12:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Kudos to: ] and ] for sharing 'impossible' ideas.

=== One chart, many calculations for 1 patient? ===
A paramedic assisted in a usability test today for the Body Roundness Calculator 4.1.

Have video of the whole test. That video won't make it online. Test subject prefers to stay anonymous and spoke local language, not English. Interesting results, back to drawing board again. Discussed zero input chart options. Got feedback: yeah, but you'll need many charts to cover all aspects of one patient. True...

Will be back with just one chart per patient, showing many calculator results in time.

] (]) 19:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

== ''The Signpost'': 18 November 2024 ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-11-18}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 16--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 23:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
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== You may be interested in this medical article ==

I just started this: ]. I hope you’re well. ] (]) 04:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:49, 17 January 2025

Note: Mostly over at MDWiki.org

The Signpost: 15 January 2025

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