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On consideration - and thanks

Sometimes things happen for a reason in life, and the opportunity is lost if one doesn't learn from and act on it - this now-rescinded block, short as it's been, has made me think carefully about just what I am doing on Misplaced Pages at the moment. While I am no sock puppeteer, standing back, looking at my contribs, I am not proud of the way I have been acting as an editor of late. I think it's possible for all of us to forget sometimes about why we're here, and end up in an offline trade of links of AfDs with other users where one of two situations is the case:

• Article clearly nominated in bad faith or without due consideration.
• Article is in such a bad state that you wonder why there isn't a blanket delete vote and people are fighting to keep the thing.

My project work has been suffering as a result. I believe I have 12 outstanding issues to deal with, some of which have been sitting there for more than 3 months, and while some of this can be explained by being busy in real life, some of it is that I quite literally waste my time here. I'm finding that I am becoming more aggressive and less tolerant of others, and that's not a good thing. Misplaced Pages will be no worse off if I don't vote, as I have the good fortune of working with a great WikiProject with a lot of intelligent and thoughtful editors. Misplaced Pages however will be better off if I spend my time improving articles and filling in gaps and working on getting my 2nd FA and some more GAs.

So as a measure of my good faith to the community, I am going to abide by a self-imposed moratorium on AfDs and other community votes (RfAs etc) for a period of time - probably a few months, until the end of October. The only exceptions I will make is if an article I have written is placed for deletion, or a colleague merits my support at an RfA in that time. I will, however, be unwatchlisting WP:DSA.

Thank you, to those who have unblocked me or defended/stood up for me today, for your good faith and I hope that in a month or so you can look back at my contribs and agree it was a stance worth taking. Oh, and anyone who wants to help me with suburbs of Geraldton, Bunbury or Albany is more than welcome to do so. Orderinchaos 07:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Albany. Fred ☻

OIC, I honestly believe that many users (admin or otherwise) would not stand up to the sort of scrutiny that you have. Although I do not personally support cabals, off-pedia work or meatpuppetry, we have wikiprojects, irc channels, and user groups... I guess, where do you draw the line? aliasd·U·T 15:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of drowning in thankyous - thank you also to all those who emailed or otherwise contacted me today with jokes, thoughts, kind words, and reflections. It means a lot, and I appreciate it. Orderinchaos 18:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Auckland Malls

I saw that you were positive about saving the (or some) of the mall articles. For personal reason, I would not like to edit them, or be connected to them too much. I have done some research to allow you or others to add notability and references to them, if you are interested in working on them:

Westfield Downtown:

- provides 2005 retail sales figure at very bottom.

- minor note, not really adding to notability, talking about the huge billboards around it.

- actually, if you have the time, extend the signage discussion, as discussed in this article - even if the Misplaced Pages article calls it a bland building covered with garish signs - thats info, and adds to the article's quality. Also has some minor details about the centre referenced.

Westfield St Lukes:

loads of minor and major info about St Lukes AND Downtown. Gives info on the time of name rebranding of Westfield Downtown. Has LOADS of info on St Lukes expansion and data on the mall itself.

Westfield Westcity

Stage One of its existence.

Info on the The Warehouse move into it.

first NZ Village Skycity cinema (link to the Village Skycity article in Misplaced Pages too, please), same article also has info on the cinema in St Lukes.

Mall turnover

Some more info about its value.

Already historical article, info on its previous ownership.

PS: When you add the reference summaries of the bdcentral articles, maybe use the info here to show the credibility of the source. The site may also be useful with its search function for the other malls.

Here's a quick summary of major shopping areas in Auckland, off the top of my head:

• Major shopping streets
  • Queen Street, Auckland is the "golden mile"
  • Karangahape Road not really close enough to Queen St to explore on the same trip and more of a seedy/cultural experience than a shopping mecca.
  • Newmarket, New Zealand is the runner up to Queen St
• Malls
  • Three malls which were among the first in the country: Westfield Manukau City, Lynnmall and Westfield St Lukes. The latter has considerably expanded in the early 90s and again early this century. The other two are a bit smaller but still pretty important in their areas.
  • Three huge new malls/centres: Botany Town Centre, Howick, Sylvia Park, something in Albany but I'm a little confused as to what its name is. It might be Albany Mega Centre. Note that Westfield Albany is about to open next to it.
  • Westfield Downtown is a small mall in the Auckland CBD; the article could be merged into that one.
  • Two Double Seven is a substantial mall in Newmarket, currently due to be expanded further. It could reasonably be merged into the Newmarket article.
  • Westfield Shore City is I think the mall which used to be North Shore Galleria. It could be merged into Takapuna.
  • Several other substantial malls are Westfield Pakuranga, Westfield West City, Milford, New Zealand
  • There are quite a number of smaller malls/centres such as Royal Oak Mall, Westgate Shopping Centre (a dab page not listing the one I know), Three Kings Mall, Meadowbank Shopping Centre and probably a dozen more I don't know about.

Auckland is very spread out compared to most cities, so although I know a lot of the city there are areas which are just names on a map to me. Westfield Glenfield I can't picture at all.-gadfium 05:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

One I missed is Victoria Park market, which is a very large permanent craft market quite close to the CBD. There are other markets, most notably the Otara one, but they usually operate in a car park on weekends only.-gadfium 06:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages administrators open to recall

I'm gland things were resolved, but your actions have shaken my faith in your understanding of what Misplaced Pages consensus is all about and in your ability to proceed as an admin. I think we need more details from you as an admin on the extent to which you have been involved in efforts with others outside of Misplaced Pages to push certain ongoing agendas within Misplaced Pages. Also, am I to understand that you stood by while someone logged in as Zivko85 so that you and this person could !vote together at an AfD? Pascal.Tesson has suggested that you give up your adminship. In view of the unwise series of meatpuppet edits, I agree that you should stand for re-confirmation of adminship. At a minimum, I would suggest you listing yourself at Category:Misplaced Pages administrators open to recall. Also, your quickly archiving the block user post on this talk page does not help inspire confidence in your judgment. -- Jreferee 17:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh get over it. -- Ned Scott 20:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is that this matter has now been settled, and we should move on. Tyrenius 21:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur, OIC does a fine job as an admin, and has even agreed to exercise more caution than most on such matters in the future. aliasd·U·T 05:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dropping by

Since we were both active at the same RFA I want to say I was as surprised as everyone else by what happened last night (night in my time zone). I'm very glad things weren't as bad as they looked at first glance and I'm glad to see your post about doing some introspection and changing priorities. It can't be easy to be under that kind of scrutiny and it's even harder to step forward like that. I won't comment on most of Jreferee's suggestions, but I will say that I'm open to recall. I encouraged Elonka to make that offer too and I've encouraged other candidates I've nominated for adminship in the past. It's the sort of action that demonstrates one's willingness to adhere to the site's highest standards. No one should be forced or coerced into it - I just hope it's something you'll consider. Warmly, Durova 17:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

perspective

What you did might have been questionable, but people are blowing it out of proportion. In any case, none of it has anything to do with your actions with admin tools. Being humble is good, but you're committed no great crime. I can't stress how important perspective is at this point. -- Ned Scott 20:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

My 2

If you are editing in conjunction with other people (ie editing wiki while your friends are around) and you both come to the same conclusion in a debate etc - whether that be because of on wiki or off wiki discussions (ie mates chatting) then so be it. That isn't socking, it isnt even a meatpuppet - its two people who happen to hold the same view/coming to the same conclusion. It is also not malicious - wiki can be a social affair as this shows. I hope your friends have not given up, and I really hope you dont even consider those idiotic calls for you to be de-sysopped. You did nothing wrong, and your demeanour in this was a credit to you. Viridae 04:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll second that (at risk of overloading you with messages). This is a case of three individuals — each with their own contribution history (especially Daniel) and views on Misplaced Pages — happening to agree on particular issues. There might have been a problem with disclosure, but that is minor (if at all valid), and certainly not a basis to request or suggest what some users are. You should take heart that, throughout this whole affair, the respect and trust many users hold in you stayed true.--cj | talk 04:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Very well said. -- Ned Scott 05:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Viridae, no one has called for Orderinchaos to be desysoped if the allegations aren't true.

CJ, this goes beyond users "happening to agree on particular issues."Proabivouac 07:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

And you would know this.. how? -- Ned Scott 07:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Look 3 sections up. Viridae 09:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering

Orderinchaos, you've generally struck me as a good editor and a reasonable person. I am having trouble following what I'm seeing here, and I wonder if you'd be willing to flesh out the story a bit for me. Of course, you're not obliged to do so - it sounds like some personal details might be involved, and I respect your right to privacy - but if there is an explanation which is consistent with the known evidence and the has ring of truth, it would save me the trouble of examining this more closely.Proabivouac 07:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Orderinchaos is a great editor in good standing with the wider Misplaced Pages community. He's put in hours of effort in order to make a positive contribution. I think that is all we need to know and keep in mind when dealing with OIC. Sammy lightfoot 06:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that there's been a decision, and whether or not you agree with it, you should avoid belaboring this issue, Proabivouac. OIC is a good person who is sincere and he has made many great contributions. The community has forgiven whatever mistakes he might have made and we have strong assurances that they won't be repeated. Let's leave it at that. Jehochman 06:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I followed this matter closely. The situation that eventually came to light from my perspective was basically this: These statements represent my viewpoint of the situation, as a third party.

• There were allegations of sockpuppetry against OIC. These allegations may simply have been instigated as part of a flamewar campaign. Evidence was given of some similar edits and a lack of overlapping of edits between OIC and his alleged sockpuppets. This was naturally enough to have a checkuser performed.
• A checkuser confirmed that there may have been some truth to these allegations. OIC logged out from a computer and other accounts logged into the same computer and performed edits, often in places like AfD discussions.
• Although the user who performed the checkuser claimed this was very damning OIC and the other parties involved were able to convince her outside of Misplaced Pages that they were in fact different people sharing the same computer. It seems more than probable that personal information was shared that has no place becoming public on Misplaced Pages, or being extracted again. OIC claimed that these people were Wikipedians he knew personally and who would share information and discussions on general 'happenings' of Misplaced Pages with these users, such as AfDs or possibly RfAs.
• No evidence came to light that OIC abused his powers as an admin or allowed these users access to his admin tools.
• The allegations shifted to meatpuppetry.
• General consensus was that OIC was merely sharing general and public Misplaced Pages information with other users with some common viewpoints. This is essentially not meatpuppetry, as there is no tangible proof that OIC fostered these users specifically to promote his viewpoints.
• OIC agreed to be more careful with his interactions with other users, which, in my opinion, was unnecessary. It was his gesture towards the community. He will become more reclusive with his discussions with other users outside Misplaced Pages to avoid a future incident.
• OIC was quick to search himself to determine where he may have possibly been at fault with this situation, which in my opinion was essentially a storm in a teacup.
• OIC remains in good standing with the community.

In my opinion, the handling of this situation was very diplomatic on the part of OIC, probably to his detriment. Furthermore I believe this matter has been resolved as 'no issue' and I believe as this situation has been investigated and OIC has been cleared, and anyone who wishes to pursue this matter further is promoting unwanted Wikistress, trying to extract highly personal information from a respected member of the Misplaced Pages community who has already been investigated and cleared, and probably witch hunting. aliasd·U·T 07:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I have but one further question, if you'll indulge me, Orderinchaos: granting that DanielT5 and Zivko85 are individuals distinct from one another and from you, was there any time at which you'd posted under their usernames, or any time when one of them might have posted under yours?Proabivouac 08:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Some background

Guys, I have a couple of things to say about this sock/meatpuppetry issue. Personally, I agree with what CJ has said above and I think calls for OIC's bit are over the top and unnecessary. OIC has obviously made some mistakes, he has admitted them, learned from them and apologised more than once for them.
But anyway, OIC and I have spent many hours chatting on g-talk, have exchanged emails and generally become good mates. Prior to there being even a hint of the slightest suspicion that OIC may have been engaging sockpuppetry, he and I shared some private and very personal information. One of the things that OIC shared with me was the fact that Zivko and Daniel were close personal friends of his, that they live close to each other and spend a lot of time together and at each other's houses. I have not been editing much and only became aware of this issue hours after it had been resolved by Rebecca or I would have tried to help shed some light on the issue. I know this won't have any impact on the person(s) who would like to wind up a lynching squad, but I feel it needs to be noted that OIC confided this information, of his own free will, with absolutely no prompting or questioning from me, with another administrator prior to there even being a hint of suspicion regarding these accounts. At the time I did not go through and check the history of these accounts as OIC had and has my full support and trust and the thought of socks didn't even occur to me, but I am not surprised to learn that there has been some overlap of edits since we are talking about three people who are very close friends and spend a lot of time together in real life. I would be very surprised if such people didn't share similar interests and therefore didn't edit the same pages and discuss Misplaced Pages issues. Sarah 08:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Very well said Sarah. —Moondyne 16:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Coordinates

What is the best way you know of (online) of finding the coords of a particular place? Is there a trick to it I'm unaware of? —Moondyne 16:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. What I've been doing is this:

1. go to maps.google.com,
2. enter the place name and press search maps

   (if you need to adjust the centre of the screen, right click on the preferred location on the map and press centre map)

3. click on the 'links to this page' button (above the map), and the decimal coordinates are midway along inside the url string.

I just wanted to now if there was a secret that everyone knew about except me. It sounds like yours is about as good as mine. —Moondyne 17:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

NZ shopping mall stubs

Re: your comment at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject New Zealand,. I suppose you know there's a list at List of shopping malls in New Zealand? Grutness...wha? 00:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Elonka 2

Thank you for taking the time to participate at the discussion in my Request for Adminship. Unfortunately the nomination did not succeed, but please rest assured that I am still in full support of the Misplaced Pages project. I listened carefully to all concerns, and will do my best to incorporate all of the constructive advice that I received, into my future actions on Misplaced Pages. If you can think of any other ways that I can further improve, please let me know. Best wishes, Elonka 03:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Informal editor review

Can I get your views on my contributions and how you think I could improve them? I would appreciate all input. Thank you very much! Auroranorth 10:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Peter Andre

Thanks for the looking into it OIC. I think when I hit the "undo" button the history changes? Thats why you may not see the "gay" stuff. I hit the button a few times and then just cut and paste an older edit that made sense and had formatted tables. Your 31 week addition that likely got omitted was my mistake, hope you can re-add it back as it is quite notable - the chidiac remix attributed for the longevity as well as efforts by his then backup chorus CDB and andre being support act to the Madonna "Girlie Show" Tour! Ta T--T3Smile 15:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Best person to give you full timeline is Anthony Chidiac. He spotted CDB as a viable act when they were managed by a colleague of his, Mr. Roger Abboud. You probably have heard of the CDB Comeback as well coming in the next six months. I've messaged Chidiac on his userpage so he can answer your q's on them as I know he is still very well in touch with them. You can see CDB in the "blooper" video that was added to the chidiac bio in my userspace. Chidiac and Siew Ooi did a remix of "Hook Me Up" in the 001 days. I'm unsure of the Rockmelons involvement, best ask chidiac. his username here is User talk:Achidiac. --T3Smile 15:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi OrderInchaos, rockmelons did original 3 track demo. Abboud (manager of CDB) dropped off cassette to Andre Barallon, and he played tape to me at Molly Meldrums place. Barallon was then head of Melodian records (Peter Andre, etc. etc.). I loved "Hook me Up" and told barallon to sign em up. Other 2 Tracks were "Hey Girl" and "Light Up the candle". (unnamed) rep for Sony came over Mollys one night and was sniffing around for new talent, where CDB Demo was casually played. CDB snapped up by Sony, before Molly/Andre/melodian had the chance to say "hello". Rest is history. "Hook Me up" cd single had three mixes, 1st one was from Andy DeSilva, 2nd one was the mix I helped with (and turned into DJ Mix) at 001 studios with Siew Ooi and Sam, 3rd track was a remix by rockmelons. CDB have reformed, andy desilva and gary pinto busy at new album - links: http://www.myspace.com/andrewdesilva http://www.myspace.com/cdbofficial http://www.myspace.com/gazzapinto

Any other q's write me a message. Hope I did enough name drops :) Could you help out T3Smile with wikifiying the entry on me - I just wont touch my own bio - I got really frowned on for it. The more you help her the more info I can get for you on stuff :) Best regards, --Achidiac 09:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Spammer

Hi, I need some admin help. I found a spam only account that is adding external links, creating spam articles, and adding internal linkspam to those articles. Could you consider this one for an indefinite block please. Edit history: . No hard feelings. Jehochman 16:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Really what needs to be done is for a user to be warned incrementally, we have a warning system where you can level up the warning template to a final warning and then if the user re-offends, you can create an entry here as a user-reported incident, the account will be blocked almost immediately. aliasd·U·T 16:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

In the edit history I see nothing but spamming and product promotion. He's previously received the full range of warnings and been blocked. . Blocking policy states "accounts used primarily for disruption are blocked indefinitely." Warnings are good for users who are attempting to be productive but make some mistakes. This case is different because there is strong evidence of bad faith. Please have a look at the edit history and let me know what you think. I appreciate a second (or third) opinion. Jehochman 17:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

He's been blocked before for the same thing and has been doing this consistently, so I see no probs with an indef block in this case... it's always open for another admin to unblock him on AGF later if he undertakes to behave. Orderinchaos 17:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Jehochman 17:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Heh, actually last night, I thought the process would be quicker than waiting for OIC to wake up, OIC, do you ever sleep? Anyway, sorry for being mostly unconstructive. aliasd·U·T 22:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Returning

I have decided to return, mainly to focus on working on articles for Misplaced Pages:Australian Collaboration of the Fortnight. I will stay on so i can assist making the articles reach a Misplaced Pages:Good articles status. Thought i could at least do that with the spare time i do have. Boylo 03:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Thx for your words. I think i was overloading by being involved with so many Projects at the one time. This way i can stay focused and work with others in reaching a worthy goal.

20,000...

Just a marker for later. Orderinchaos 03:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Freemans

CSD A7. Thewinchester 05:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Infobox Govt Agency

Have just completed the field list, which I'd like your input on: User:Thewinchester/Sandbox/InfoboxGovtAgency. Cheers, Thewinchester 05:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It's now in mainspace (Template:Infobox Govt Agency), but as you can see from the Department of Environment and Conservation (Western Australia) it's doing some weird things. There's a table marker appearing where it shouldn't, and the title of the Agency Exec is not appearing (something might be wrong with the nested if statement). Any ideas? Thewinchester 02:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheers on that formatting fix. Still an issue with the agency exec position however, there's two fields involved in this There's the name of the actual executive (chief_name) which is displaying correctly, and there's another for their title (chief_position). chief position is only supposed to show when the chief_name field has a value, but the nested if there is not working. Thewinchester 02:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Mister number two

Summaries are incorrect for some - it looks as tho mister longhair has cleaned up the template so cat doesnt have any dangly bits any more - thats good. SatuSuro 09:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

whatever/whenever - some you have summary for Perth when you did WA SatuSuro 09:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I have lost faith in most bot devices/imitators anyways - they all seem to come to sticky ends SatuSuro 09:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You are a racist

Why did you delete my post about the town of Umina? I am a proud Muslim and I Work on the Gosford City Council. There have been plans to build a Mosque on West Street in Umina. Please Retract your deletion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LucyInTheSkyWith (talk • contribs) 02:15, August 7, 2007 (UTC)

Sheik en Bake? It was obvious that this was a joke rather than a serious addition. While the juvenile side of me found it funny, the Misplaced Pages editor in me knew it had to go. Orderinchaos 02:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, also I doubt the Council will confirm that such a person as you claim to be works there, nor will the Council confirm that a Mosque is being built by that name. my Arabic speaking friend said there is no such thing as "Sheik en Bake" in Arabic. Also if you were going to have a go at vandalism you would have at least chosen a believable name that wouldn't arouse suspicion. Michellecrisp 02:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

EEK!! retract that edit, no need to start educating smarter, sneakier vandals! aliasd·U·T 03:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Damn you OIC for being such a racist - we all know you secretly support One Nation :P Timeshift 02:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea, saw it. I like the article showing Labor back to 56-44 more though :P Timeshift 02:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Baking

Yes, so many flaws in this vandal. It's also racist to satirise foreign languages. Michellecrisp 02:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)