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Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2

The cursed infobox

Should be left alone like Fayssal left it.--Skatewalk 03:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

As I suspect the other user is you it is pointless it is not going to change anything and no one is going to help you for reverting, edit the article as you wish because the group you are trying to form is useless. Other users who disagree will revert obviously. --Vonones 06:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not forming this team? I joined the Arab wiki project. I dont know what or who are these people, most of them joined yesterday anyways.--Skatewalk 22:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Instead of listing individual countries, couldn't we have a list of actual regions, like "the Middle East", "North Africa", "Europe", and so on? I doubt that'll offend anyone.Funkynusayri 22:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Biased Pictures

If you're going to re-create the article, I would like add the point of putting pictures that portray each of the ethnic groups responsible for making our Father the Persians. In the present article, I think that there are too many pictures of Caucasion-looking Arabs. Am I wrong in saying that both Mongloids and Negroids are equally to thank? InternetHero 07:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This should be looked into, many pure Arabs are also Black. Shukran Wahaaab 07:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The Arabs are not a race! And any racist discussion in the mideast is rather comical more than anything else. However, If you have photos feel free to add, simple as that! --Skatewalk 10:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Mongoloid Arabs? Where? And by the way, the pictures are only used because they're the best ones available. The thing about Misplaced Pages is that we can't just use any copyrighted picture, so I mostly upload pictures with expired copyrights, and so far most of such pictures I could find depicted Arabs from the Fertile Crescent and such. Funkynusayri 18:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Just let him say whatever he wants. When we see his exotic mongol Arab photos. then we have a talk!--Skatewalk 22:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I do in fact know that Arabian people are not a race. I am very learned in the field of genetics and the history of civilization. I do not know why I was removed from the list of people willing to help recreate the article. Is it because I am from Canada and am not Arabian?

With the advent of the Fertile Crescent being very near Asia, I would think that there is in fact Mongoloid DNA is most Arabs. I haven't studied this topic in respect to DNA analysis, but I do in fact beleive it is very plausible. In fact, I will look into it further. InternetHero 21:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Arabs are known for not being mongoliod. (Big eyes, high forheads and prominent Nose) is the common Arab features. How is that mongoliod. You know about genetics as much as I know about Dorsia. However, feel free to show us your photos of the exotic mongol Arabs and we will discuss that.--Skatewalk 22:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Well, on East Asian DNA in Arabs, yes, the Middle East is in Western Asia, but Central Asia is the "buffer zone" between the Middle East and "Mongoloid" East Asia, where you do find Caucasoid/Mongoloid mixtures (Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmens, so on), but not in the Middle East. The genetic studies I have seen support this view. Anyhow, if they did have some slight East Asian admixture, how would this suddenly create bona fide Mongoloid Arabs? Here's a genetic map showing relatedness between populations: http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5202/dnatreexl5.gifFunkynusayri 22:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC) (To InternetHero)

• Ok I get it, this guy is your stalker from your genetic edits!--Skatewalk 22:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Who knows, they usually turn up in legions... So expect more! But the point about black Arabs is valid, we could maybe add a single picture of some Sudanese Arabs, but not too many, most Arabs aren't black after all. Funkynusayri 22:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Improving the Arab article

• The Arab article can not be changed overnight, we have to discuss every change.
• This not the article to express your anti-Arab frustrations, we have other articles you can improve for that purpose. Wafa Sultan, Brigitte Gabriel articles.
• This not an article to express your Arab pride. If you have nationalistic urges you should improve the Arabism article.--Skatewalk 08:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Arab Nationalism

Should it be removed from the article?

• The article discusses the Arab identity. and the article should be more informative on who is Arab. IMO Arab Nationalism should be an article on its own?--Skatewalk 09:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

There are going to be a team who will work on this article whole night with a placed tag so no one could edit until 23 hrs. You may add your wishing to our team to review. Thanks. Irqirq 09:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Join the Arab wiki project, thats the real team that will fix this article. If you dont join it, how can we take you seriously?
  • BTW you uploaded an Akkadian image on the Sumerian people article! (How can I take you seriously? again, which is very strong evidence of your non Mesopotamian origin! (related behavior reverts can easily lead to a sock puppet that paricipated in recent edit wars)
  • Any undiscussed changes will be considered VANDALISM and we will have behavior investigation into the so called "team" that doesnt want to join the Arab wiki project, yet the they want to change the Arab article!
  • Also explain why 3 of the 5 members just joined in the last 24hours!?--Skatewalk 09:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please Skatewalk calm down, and don't accuse anyone for sock puppet yet, and don't make any attacks or edit wars against each others. Lets think again, if you believe this is a team of Vandals, why to care?, I think also this article needs to re written. So if you oppose Irqirq opinion then join the group and dominate your edits. This is the best way to prevent edit war. I am joining not as a follower of Irqirq. The last thing we need is the edit wars, Skatewalk if you believe this is a foolish team then join to help it. I hope you guys would calm down. for those who joined today maybe they are a long time readers and saw the heated debate or what ever—Juju78 09:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Juju,

We created an Arab wiki project for this purpose, I tried inviting him to join the wiki project, but he shrugged me off and said I wasn't Arab! There is a wiki project, that everyone interested in fixing this article should join! (you dont have to be Arab to join the group, Berbers and Kurds joined the group also, so they can add what they want about their ethic groups)--Skatewalk 10:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I will remove this team and will join the Arab Wikiproject — Juju78 10:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to join as well. I will focus on Egypt's relation to Arabism, Arabs and pan-Arabism. --Lanternix 12:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Also remember if you want us to mention in the Egyptians in the Arab article, we expect the Arabs to be mentioned in the Egyptian article. If you want to be allowed to change an article to a group you show hate towards (calling Arabs naked bedouins), then expect extra attention paid to whatever you edit. Fair enough?--Skatewalk 21:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
  • If this is how you want to start the project then expect nothing but conflict. --Lanternix 21:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Well Lanterix you have to change your ways.
    • Respect other users, you been rude to Nusayri, Al-Andalus and even me, although I was agreeing with you!
    • Fix the EGyptian identity page so it can balance the Arab page. (we dont want it to seem that someone is living on another planet!). If you want to address the Arabs as an invading minority I dont have a problem with that, but you can't also claim them as the Egyptian non Arabs in the same time!?--Skatewalk 22:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Reconstruction Arab article

As I did read this article, it contains a lot of unusual information, propagandistic views and weasel words. I therefore would like to get a group with me who are able to rewrite this article in a best way to get best results. Anyone who want to join our team add your name below. Please note that after the team has gathered, we will place "under-progress" tag. Please add your country orgin along with the country you live in.

• Irqirq
• Arab League
• Juju78
• Smart_Viral
• Lanternix
• If you want to join a team, join the --Skatewalk 23:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I wonder why any "team" needs to be created to edit this article and what is wrong with the system of discussing content on the talk page. I suggest working line by line through any disputed section in order to achieve consensus. Additionally, why should we include our country of origin? What relevance does this have to improving the article?--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 16:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary to list a country of origin either, but I think I understand what motivates the request. We wouldn't want the Arab article to be built by editors only from one country because it might provide a country-centric definition. It would be good to have the input of as many Arab editors from as many different Arab countries as possible. But we also need the input of non-Arab editors and I agree with Al-Ahwaz that we can solve this problem by going through the article line by line to work towards NPOV, which means including all significant POVs which I hope all editors will work to try and understand and accommodate.Tiamat 16:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S. For those who are curious about my own origins, I'm a Palestinian who lives in Nazareth where the dominant language is still Arabic, even if we now hold Israeli citizenship. Tiamat 16:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

No team and no country of origin. This is Misplaced Pages, the 💕. Anyone can edit and classification in terms of ethnicity, nationality is highly discouraged. The project would be there and ANYONE is encouraged to participate as it is the case in ALL wikipedia projects. If there would be any attempt to make of the project a propaganda tool be it for or against Arabs or X, i'd not hesitate to fight hard to stop it. In parallel, POV pushers w/ agendas from both sides have no place here and if you don't believe me you can check User:Mariam83 and User:Serenesoulnyc block logs before that. So no agendas WP:NPOV and no sockpuppeting WP:SOCK would be permitted. Enjoy. -- FayssalF - 17:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

no problem in a private team its more organized than public. <<Smart_Viral 17:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)>>

Which team are you talking about? I don't understand this issue of teams! Is this something new in wikipedia? You'll have Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Arab where ANYONE would join w/o telling us they are coming from Mars. That's personal info and this is Misplaced Pages. X is entitled to work enhance articles and everyone is a team themselves. I am saying it again, i'll be watching. That has never worked in Misplaced Pages and it will never work. -- FayssalF - 17:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

No "team" can save this article as long as certain editors insist on making the article conform to their own personal opinions, reflections, and analyses (i.e. WP:OR) of what the term "Arab" should mean as opposed to the real purpose of wikipedia, which is to tell us how the term is in fact applied in real life. As long as this is the case, all that can be foreseen are endless edit wars over unverified claims. Furthermore, the odd requirement that people write down their "country of origin" here is an ominous sign. -- Slacker 17:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey everyone. Why don't we just take the rhetoric down a notch? What I see here is a lot of excitement about the proposed Arab WikiProject among editors who jumped the gun by trying to organize efforts here. We can organize collaborative efforts at the page if and when the project is approved. FayssalF is right when he says we cannot form exclusive teams to edit articles and that we should not make the listing of one's country origins a criteria for inclusion. It's not wrong to encourage other users to share such information, but it shouldn't be expected or required of anyone. People edit here anonymously and they often value their privacy. Anyway, I remain really excited about the new project and the enthusiasm people have exhibited and the recognition of the need for editing of this page which besides being poorly composed suffers from huge gaps and some NPOV issues. Why don't we take Al Awhaz's suggestion to begin by going through the article and identifying things that need improvement or correction or expansion or deletion or whatever? Cool? Tiamat 17:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• For the record, I'm only half Arab (Lebanese). Funkynusayri 18:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello everyone. Finkynusayri even If you are a half Arab. You are still qualified to edit Arab related articles. I was a long time reader before I became a member and I have seen your edits. For Faysal. Please be more aware the single person operation by each user on this article or talk page may lead to the lack of neutrality. anti-Arabs have engaged to join in a article to make chaos and effect its neutrality. Is that wikipedia?. No it do not think so. I agree that a team is not something that are regular on wikipedia but in case of emergency its needed like now. Everyone who have interested on this may join, offcourse this team is not permanent. Thanks Irqirq 18:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

A Jew, an African, a Chinese, a German, a Russian, a Brazilian, an Iranian and anyone else is entitled to edit articles on the Arab world, providing they give a positive contribution that does not breach Misplaced Pages rules. I've been bullied for contributing to articles related to Iran because I am not Persian. I don't think it is good to generate the same air on Arab-related articles.

I think Irqirq was being genuine in his efforts to improve the article, but I fear that requiring the listing of nationalities to achieve "balance" is erroneous. Nationality is irrelevant. An Iraqi can be Arab, Kurd, Turkoman, etc, a male or a female, a liberal or a Baathi, Shi'a, Sunni, Christian or Jew. The same applies for all Arab countries. A mix of nationalities proves nothing when attempting to achieve NPOV.--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 19:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Finkynusayri even If you are a half Arab. You are still qualified to edit Arab related articles. — So, since when did it become forbidden of non-Arabs to edit Arabic related articles, Mr. Jimbo Wales? — EliasAlucard|Talk 21:02 23 Aug, 2007 (UTC)

I dont mind Non Arabs joinning the team, Aslong as they join the Arab wiki projet. I rather discuss changes with hem then have lame edit wars!--Skatewalk 21:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Get the hell away from me. Don't ask me any questions, I do not wish to answer you or talk to you. You Troll!!. Irqirq 19:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)(to: EliasAlucard)

Trouble-shooting

Could editors list the paragraphs they are in dispute with and the precise nature of the problems they have with them below. Then we can tackle the exact problems and achieve consensus.--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 19:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ahwas, I don't think you have fully understood what I meant. The purpose of this Nationality is not to create a racism environment. It's to get users who works together on a team to know a more about each other. Jew, Iranian and you name it are more than welcome to add their name if they wish to help create a decent neutral Arab article with us. Irqirq 20:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I know that you did not intend to create any confrontation by requesting people list their nationalities and that your efforts were a genuine attempt to improve co-operation, but such an exercise could have negative consequences. I suggest we should start by examining each disputed paragraph and reach an agreement, perhaps taking a poll on various options. This would be a good way to involve those with a long-standing interest in improving this article and sideline the passing trolls. If this doesn't work, then there is a progressive set of measures to resolve an editorial dispute. But let's start from the beginning. Please list the paragraphs you think are problemmatic and state why. Then others can voice their opinions.--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 20:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I started by fighting WP:OR yesterday. The famous unsourced table about populations. What is weird is that it became the subject of blind reverts. Reverting figures of something which is in both cases unsourced. -- FayssalF - 21:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your wisdom, thats the best thing that ever happenned to the article. Also if Lanternix/Egyegy insist on the labelling the Arabs as invaders, Why does their Egyptian identity page denies the existance of the Arab Ashraaf!

• They actually claim that Egypt is being dominated by 400,000 Bedouins who imposed their culture/language/religion on 80 Million Egyptians! (does that make sense! and will any Egyptian acept such humiliation?)
• Its simple if they want to edit the Arab aricle they hae to fix the article first, because as of now they still claim that the Arabs are only 1-2% of the population. --Skatewalk 21:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that the population table is one of the biggest problems. The thing is, someone will always point out that so and so aren't ethnic Arabs, for example. It's kind of a problem that the different definitions of Arab (cultural, ethnic, linguistic, geographic) do not necessarily overlap, and if we don't explain that, properly and with sources, we are inviting people to constantly mingle with the numbers. Funkynusayri 21:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• When you erase the population table. We dont have this problem(excuse to vandalize the Arab article).
• I dont see a reason to mention Non Arabs, because this article dont apply to them at all? Other wise we will have a section for the Berber, Kurds, Gypsies, Assyrians, Arameans, Syriacs, Indians, Pakistanis, Bengalis, Iranians, Somalis, Ethiopians, Circissians, and Armenians leaving among the Arabs. (They should start an article on their own like everyone else does)--Skatewalk 22:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to have some mention of non-Arab minorities in what some people refer to as the Arab world. Indeed, a summary of the history of the Arabs, is one of interaction and coexistence with many different other peoples (due to the territories they inhabited forming a sort of crossroads between continents) and this process often enriched Arab culture and vice versa. Tiamat 23:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that should be in ethnic groups in the Arab world. I rather keep this article to what it relates to (Arabs).--Skatewalk 01:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Skate. Just a simple advice about handling issues in Misplaced Pages. First remember WP:BATTLE before mentioning anti-X. Instead of commenting more than enough about 400,000 bedouins you should have mentioned WP:CITE and WP:V and went on. There's no need to get impatient. Use policies and guidelines as your weapon and not delving w/o end in lame discussions which would sort out nothing. I hope all parties would understand that well. -- FayssalF - 01:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Although many sources can be biased. I understand how that can make things easier. --Skatewalk 02:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have a suggestion, why don't we leave the discussions on the Egypt article to the Egypt talk page and concentrate here on this article. Don't you think this would be more efficient? --Maha Odeh 07:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Removing Arab Nationalism

• Is their any user interested in keeping this part? (if so Why?) Should this part be reffered to the Arab Nationalism article link instead of a section?

This is the first major change that needs to be done (it had a merger for a while now)? --Skatewalk 21:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The only relevance it has is in defining the Arab nation. In my opinion, paragraphs three, four and five in this section are not relevant, are unsourced and are POV.

After the end of the Ottoman Empire and the colonial period, the new Arab states looked to protect their fragile nations by focusing on their own history and culture to build up an enduring national identity. - this is an opinion and is unsourced.

As these nations developed, pan Arab media led to the Arabization of the Middle East - why the media? was there Arabicization? This is a biased POV.

that resulted in much assistance between states, often forced by empathy of their populations for other Arabs. For example, many Arab countries allied in the wars against Israel. - it may or may not be true, but solidarity between states was not just about empathy, and in fact there were (and still are) poor relations between some Arab states.

This empathy was an issue to new and weaker states, which needed to reduce the impact of external influence on their citizens in order to run their own countries. - but is this true? Was it true in Yemen?

For example Iraq functioned thanks to strong governance by the British (reducing third party Arab influence) and later the independent government from 1932 onwards, although the population has significant cultural and historical divides. - this sentence doesn't make sense.

This new nationalism had a practical application often in response to internal espionage by other Arab nations. - I thought the purpose of pan-Arabism, according to this article, was mutual solidarity. Instead, Arab nationalism is used against espionage by Arab states on other Arab states. Again, this makes no sense and if it did, it would probably be POV.

This culminated in a number of pivotal events that emphasized the priority of "nation" over the "Arab nation": the 1978 Camp David Peace Accords between Egypt and Israel, Syria's backing of Iran in the Iran-Iraq War, and Jordan's removal of the PLO. - what has this got to do with Arab nationalism. Arab states are self-interested. So are European states. What is the issue here?

--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 21:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

That section relates to Syria more than anything else. I dont see how its relevant to the general Arab article. Its more related to the modern PanArabism that started in Syria. It does relate to the Arab identity, but it needs a mention not a whole section.

• Also mentions of the nations should be replaced by more focus on the people.
• I want to hear from more people, before we remove that section. Someone might be seeing something we don't--Skatewalk 22:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's good to have a brief mention of Arab nationalism and pan-Arabism with links to the main articles where the topic is better covered in depth. Tiamat 23:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok Tiamut, DO you want to mention it in (Who is an Arab section?).

• I agree with whatever changes you make. Aslong as it reduces the Nationalistic feeling of the article. Its supposed to be a modertae Arab article, that will also reduce the constant vandalizing by Anti-Arabs. --Skatewalk 23:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, Misplaced Pages is not meant to be "moderate" anything. It is meant to give the range of viewpoints. If racists want to vandalise it, then we'll have to work to counter them. Unfortunately, the way Misplaced Pages is run means that we'll always have to defend this article. If it gets too bad, then it can be semi-protected to prevent sockpuppets and anonymous IPs from editing it.--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 00:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahwaz I know what you mean, I am trying to be moderta eon this subject. Arab nationalism is a fact, but it would be better if it doesnt make a big part of this article, we dont have to hurt the feelings of the AntiArabs (even if you think its a cheap ride, but you still have to give them some space).--Skatewalk 01:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Arab Wiki Project

We have an Arab wiki project that is currently working on improving the article (Arab), it would be great if you can join us (you dont have to be Arab or Pan Arabist, aslong as you know about the subject we need you)

Interested Wikipedians (please add your name By Alphabetic order in the link below)

1. Ahwaz
2. Arab League
3. Aziz1005
4. Basel15
5. FaysaalF
6. Funkynusayri
7. Maha Odeh
8. Slacker
9. Skatewalk
10. Tiamat

--Skatewalk 23:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The Wiki Project should not be a substitute for discussion on this page. All changes and disputes on this article should be conducted here, so that those not a member of this project can participate, including third parties (who can often give impartial advice).--▓▒░الأهواز ★ Al-Ahwaz░▒▓ 00:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

ofcourse!--Skatewalk 01:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I will add my name later. This project has not be formed yet even so, this is a long term suject including long term editing, I am talking about small non permanent group who are active in editing Arab articles. Why hesitate just add your names and lets try this I think this may work if you dont like to add your country then just add your name, It's not a big deal. May I list the benefits?

1. . If the group has gathered we will please a tag wich say that we will edit this article until 23 hrs, this will give us time. We who have shown that activity in this article and are qualified
2. . Prevent non known user who has an anti arab beliefs to just pop in and make chaos.
3. . Learn to work together and accept others opionen, This is very Important.
4. Listen to each other and cope with every aspect.

I beilive these are the IMPORTANT points to make a decent neutral article. Irqirq 05:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Irq,

If its short term. then discuss what you want to remove or add, in the discussion section and we go from there. I started a section on proposal to remove Arab nationalism section and replace it with a mention in the who is Arab section.--Skatewalk 07:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Repeated section (PreSabaean=Ancient)

PreSabaean and Ancient history is the same! Why would someone insist on bringinng it back?

• FunkyNusayri already mentioned it before in the archives. User: Editor-group reverted it, assuming it was part of the edit wars.
• If there is anything extra you think will help improve the article, please mention. The section was rverted in the infobox edit wars (not necessary on purpose)
• For expanding the ancient history you can go to Ancient Arabia and Ancient Near East--Skatewalk 07:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Why I want Fayssal to join the team

Offcourse this is up to you if you would like to participate or not and i hope I am allowed to add why I wish we could need your help. If you still insist you will not join then I wish you could just keep an eye with us, below the a summery why I think your help is useful.

• Fayssal is an Administrator and have fulfilled experience and has provided the need not only to Arab related articles but also to the whole Misplaced Pages and may help to any fights which occurs by any members of the team.
• A respected user by Oriental/eastern and Arabs, as a fellow citizen of Morocco, may be another perspective from the people who are from middle east, and needed another view of the subject rather than a group which are closely tied by the same background.
• Has made a lot of edits on the Arab people article and are more than qualified to trust on.

I hope indeed that you will help us, thanks. Irqirq 07:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Troubleshooting 1 - References and Sources

This is an attempt to point out the specific areas of concern. I will start with the sources for this article.

Sources

These are my concerns regarding the sources, listed in the sequence they are listed in the article: 1. Harthi.org:

I’m not sure this qualifies as a sources, it’s a forum.

2. Touma, Habib Hassan. The Music of the Arabs. Portland, Oregon: Amadeus P, 1996. ISBN 0-931340-88-8.

I don’t have a problem with the source itself, however, it talks about music while the article does not talk about music. I didn’t read the book so I don’t really know if it’s relevent.

3. Lipinski, Edward. Semitic Languages: Outlines of a Comparative Grammar, 2nd ed., Orientalia Lovanensia Analecta: Leuven 2001 4. Kees Versteegh, The Arabic Language, Edinburgh University Press (1997)

I’m not quite sure since the focus on language, but I will accept these two.

5. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Robert Appleton Company, 1907, Online Edition, K. Night 2003: article Arabia

Two points, a. it’s outdated (1907) and b. it’s biased (very clearly) and it sources the bible, which is neither objective nor scholarly in anything but religion.

6. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/le.html#People

despite my personal opinion of the sources I would accept it, however, did anyone notice that the souce is only for Lebanon.

7. History of Arabic language, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Retrieved Feb.17, 2006 8. The Arabic language, National Institute for Technology and Liberal Education web page (2006) Retrieved Jun. 14, 2006.

I would accept both as I did for the other two related to language, but the citiation is not complete. Who is writer?

9. Ankerl, Guy. Coexisting Contemporary Civilizations: Arabo-Muslim, Bharati, Chinese, and Western. Geneva: INUPRESS, 2000. ISBN 2881550045. 10. Hooker, Richard. "Pre-Islamic Arabic Culture." WSU Web Site. 6 June 1999. Washington State University. 5 July 2006 <http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/PRE.HTM>.

Acceptable sources

11. Owen, Roger. "State Power and Politics in the Making of the Modern Middle East 3rd Ed" Page 57 ISBN 0-415-29714-1 12. Halliday, Fred. "Two Hours that Shook the World" P47 ISBN 0-86356-382-1

It’s not clear how they are relevent, I would apprieciate an explanation.

13. Journal of Semitic Studies Volume 52, Number 1

Which article, are we supposed to get that volume and “guess” which article is the relevent one? The Journal itself, however, is acceptable.

14. Abdulaziz Almsaodi, Himyari Studies 15. Amitav Ghosh, In an Antique Land. 16. Kamal Salibi, The Bible Came from Arabia 17. Aymn Almsaodi, The Historic Atlas of Iberia

All the above are incomplete; who is the publisher, which year is it – alternatively the ISBN would do. The last one, “The Historic Atlas of Iberia” is irrelevent.

My Notes: Out of 17 sources, only 2 are acceptable, some are not complete, some are irreleven and some unaccpetable.

References and notes

1. 1996, p.xviii

Acceptable in this case

2. From Arab.net: "Although modern day Egyptians are usually ….etc.

I don’t know if anyone noticed, but the site “Arab.net” is a collection of POV articles by different journalists. This particular article is written by a Copt, who does not cite any credible (or bad for that matter) sources of his alligations. Did anyone actually investigage if his alligations are true or just hi POV? I would assume that any POV is not acceptable here including that of people that are not editing here. His article can not even be considered original research since it is not research at all. Please note that these articles both are directly linked to information mention as FACT in the article.

3. Abadeer: "We are proud of our Egyptian identity and do not accept to be Arabs. Elaph. April 12, 2007. 4. http://www.aina.org/guesteds/20060210113623.htm 5. http://amalid.com/prominent_lebs/Gubran_Khalil_Gubran/AMU_to_Powell.htm

all the above are personal POVs.

6. from " by NBC News Middle East military analyst, retired intelligence officer Lt Col Rick Francona

Blog, not authentic or credible. The statement is easy to prove, however, just seek the Arab League website.

7. Journal of Semitic Studies Volume 52, Number 1 8. AbdulAziz Almsaodi, Himyari Studies P.139 9. Arabic As a Minority Language By Jonathan Owens, pg. 184 10. Arabic As a Minority Language By Jonathan Owens, pg. 182

The sources are acceptable but as mentioned before, the citation is incomplete.

11. (1998) Christian Communities in the Middle East. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-829388-7. 12. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/le.html#People 13. http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~ajds/mendes_refugees.htm

Acceptable.

My Notes: out of 13, 4 are acceptable.

General

Although it seems as if there are a lot of references, actually there aren't especially for such a subject. A lot of the sources are regarding language, many are one sided and, most importantly, not all the controvertial statements are cited.

Moreover, since many subjects are controversial, we need to provide more than one point of view. Maybe some subjects can be only briefly touched and another page created for details including the opposition. Example: the who is an Arab, up to my understanding, is more controversial than we like to admit. Another example, is Are Assyrians, Aramates and other ancient Semitic peoples Arabs, although many scholars believe they are not, a great many others believe they can be one way or the other.

OK, this is quite a lot of talk in the talk page so I'll stop for the time being. --Maha Odeh 08:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

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