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Talk:Holodomor denial: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 16:01, 27 December 2007 editBandurist (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,321 edits Motion to remove merge tag← Previous edit Revision as of 18:18, 27 December 2007 edit undoMolobo (talk | contribs)13,968 edits Isn't it also the denial that it was a genocide: new sectionNext edit →
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I feel that the article would benefit from a seperate section analysing the reasons for Holodomor denial and also possibly a section on Holodomor revisionism. Thoughts? ] (]) 16:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC) I feel that the article would benefit from a seperate section analysing the reasons for Holodomor denial and also possibly a section on Holodomor revisionism. Thoughts? ] (]) 16:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

== Isn't it also the denial that it was a genocide ==

Isn't Holodomor denial also a term for denying that it was a genocide ?--] (]) 18:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:18, 27 December 2007

Sad sight

It is a sad sight to see this article being an attempt of Misplaced Pages editors to engage into this political campaigning on the bones of the victims of the famine. It is one thing when this is done by politicians who would exploit anything they can for the political benefit tripling and quadrupling number of victims or using 1921 pictures to illustrate 1933 events. It is expected and it will always happen. It is quite another thing when this campaigning perpetrates into the encyclopedia.

Starting from the very first sentence, this text is unacceptable. "Denial" is a claim that the famine did not happen. This opinion is such a fringe POV that the debate is out of the picture. Tottle is the only one to claim this.

However, disagreement on whether the term Genocide applies is a legitimate debate. Even the proposed law in Ukraine would not apply to the latter issue as it would prohibit to deny the famine itself, not its legal implications. There are plenty of respected scholars who don't see Genocide in the famine and Horlo's attempt to label them as denialists, also violates WP:BLP.

The article is a soapbox and should be deleted. I would welcome serious contributors to help in covering this topic on wikipedia but that kind of soapboxing is totally out of question, particularly disgusting is to see these games being played on the memories of the victims. Shame! --Irpen 16:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Not all of this is political campaigning. Denial did exist in Soviet Union, Duranty and Tottle. Those events should to be mentioned here or in the Holodomor article. The Holodomor denial bill could be mentioned also. The more modern stuff isn't really denial. Do you want this information moved to the Holodomor article? Ostap 19:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I want this cleaned from nonsense first. Not seeing the famine as Genocide is not denial of the famine. Depending on how much is left after this, we can decide whether a separate article is warranted. --Irpen 19:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree. The title itself is an attempt to mimic the Holocaust denial, which is troubling. There is no basis for that. All of that can be mentioned at the Holodomor article, it doesn't warrant a separate article. If there is a vote, I support redirect to the main article. --Hillock65 (talk) 23:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Constructive help is most welcome

It is sad to see that some editors cannot accept differing opinions.

Please point out: A) which points are disputed B) which points are original research.

If you cannot, the tags will be removed. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Statements such as "campaigning on the bones of famine victims" are repulsive enough that editors making them should be summarily drummed out of Misplaced Pages.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 19:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I just called a spade a spade, Horlo. --Irpen 19:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Lets keep the "campaigning on the bones of famine victims" for the article. Sounds like something Duranty did. Ostap 19:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Duranty has been debunked and had the prestigious prize revoked. Do we really need a separate article to expose Tottle and Duranty? Are they worth it? --Irpen 19:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Not necessarily. But has his prize been revoked? I didn't think so. Ostap 19:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think I read that in the news. -Irpen 19:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Can I remove the "wikify" tag yet? Ostap 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Irpen 19:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


Irpen, claiming that Holodomor denial does not exist is the same as claiming that Holocaust denial does not exist. Both statements are equally repugnant.

Once again, things you think are not what they are. (I'm referring to your idea that "Kiev" is more popular in English than "Kyiv", simply because some media uses it). Duranty's prize was not revoked. There were enough people claiming that the Holodomor never took place to get in the way of Duranty's suspension.

Now, Irpen, once again I say - if you have something constructive to add to the article, please do. Disputed tags are not constructive. If you cannot show what specifically is original research or what is disputed, I will simply be BOLD and remove them.

Thanks, 67.71.177.55 (talk) 20:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The term does exist outside Misplaced Pages and thus deserves an article

Holodomor denial gives several hundred hits including news sources such as BBC. If anybody wants to expand his knowledge about the subject he should have an opportunity to do so on Misplaced Pages with the proper article.--Molobo (talk) 23:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Motion to remove tags

Is there any serious argument against removing the "disputed" and "neutrality" tags? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 23:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There is argument over keeping the article, and maybe actually re-writting this lump of information into an article for a start. Usually the size of the article drops noticibly and then we can consider on weather the amount of keeping there is worth a separate page in wikipedia. --Kuban Cossack 23:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


Hello, Kuban Cossack, your constructive input is more than welcome. Please explain how information can be in a "lump", and what would separate that from an official Misplaced Pages "article". Also, how would re-writing (this is not an article about legalities, therefore there is no "writ") cause the size of an article to decrease? (How would you "drop" it?) Third, the weather here is great - a White Christmas - but that doesn't mean that the information presented here is disputable, or original research. Please see the extensive reference list at the bottom. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 23:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Well from what I had to sample, and viewing how the edit history of the article went, we had complete paragraphs removed. I only touched the opening and the USSR part, and it was knee-deep in nonsense such as Kravchuk's nightmares. Now as ... interesting as that might be why do we need that in wikipedia at all? Just look at the section that was prior to my edit, and all that was left of it after I made the edit. True the volume of removed text was compensated by other additions, such as the 1937 census. Now that's one small section, I have not even read the rest of the article, but if it is just like the rest... This article needs a lot of work! --Kuban Cossack 00:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest this stuff merged into Holodomor article ASAP as this is becoming a new battle ground, where some people have come to re-write history. Just look at the intro, which claims that Holodomor was the result of a failed agricultural reform. This is beyond comment and needs to stop. There is no need to tag or untag anything, just redirect this into Holodomor article. At least let's limit edit wars to just one article. --Hillock65 (talk) 00:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Where do you see a battleground? There is universal consensus that the famine was caused by the collectivisation of the UkSSR, now weather its ricochet that led to the millions of death was intentional or genocidal is still one question which is disputed. I just re-wrote it to follow the status quo on main Holodomor article, which I trust is NPOV. --Kuban Cossack 00:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


Hello, Kuban Cossack, without getting too personal about this, it seems that you do not have an idea about the meaning of the term "genocide". Here, you claim that the forced starvation of a nation by a foreign government is an agricultural mistake, yet on your own user page you proudly proclaim that you went to defend the Russian population against a "genocidal" attack in Chechnya.
There is consensus about the Holodomor, and that is that it was a deliberate act by the Stalinist regime.
Perhaps this topic is too personal to you, and you might benefit from a break. Were you also so vocal in arguing against a "holocaust denial" article being created?
I still think that such discussion highlights that the issue of Holodomor Denial is necessary, as even a group of editors here think that it never really happened.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 00:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you taking it personal? Lets avoid conflict triggers such as "foreign" or "deliberate". Neither of those are appropriate, and as the Holodomor article states, there is no direct proof that the famine was "deliberate against Ukrainians". I am not questioning it being a famine, are you aware of the "black boards" used in the Don, Kuban and Terek? There was similar kind in the Kazakhstan and in Kurgan Oblast Cannibilism was noted. So there is no question that the Soviet policy on high grain quota, and then "punishment" for not meeting the quota was the result. Now just how much role did Stalin or any other member of the Soviet Government played is purely detail. Moreover its not in the scope of the article.--Kuban Cossack 01:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


This article is about denying that the famine took place. However, some people claim that it did not. It did. Therefore, it is not original research, nor disputed. Therefore, the tags should be removed. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 01:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


The tags were only put there to specifically antagonise the editors and to discredit the article. All the facts given pertaining to the article have been sourced and disputed claims stated. The article is too large (and growing) to condense it into the Holodomor article. The study of Holodomor denial, its workings and reasons, has been the subject of a number of seminars and conferences. The tags should be removed. Bandurist (talk) 02:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Kharkiv-> Kiev_Kiev-2007-12-26T00:27:00.000Z">

Here is a discussion thread highlighting the events, it includes a very intersting minute, I know forums are not refrences, but how can we use the sources that the users brought there here? .--Kuban Cossack 00:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)_Kiev"> _Kiev">


In 1987 I spent a few weeks living with Leonid Haydamaka in Amherst, New Hampshire. Haydamaka was a professor of domra and bandura at the Kharkov Music and drama Institute in the 20-30's He was also the conductor of the first orchestra of Ukrainian Folk instruments. I video taped him and took down 18 hours of interviews. What was interesting was that his wife was the legal secretary to Mykola Skrypnyk. She was one of 4 students who had completed studies at the Kharkiv University in Ukrainian Philology and as a result was in high demand during the period of Ukrainization in order to make and correct documents into literary Ukrainian. When the government offices moved from Kharkiv to Kyiv in the first half of 1934 she was supposed to move but declined because her husband's jobs and the fact that he directed 2 unique orchestras of Ukrainian folk instruments.

She later went to visit her co-workers who had moved to Kyiv and discovered their apartments sealed and the windows pasted with newspapers. They were gone. She also described in depth the haphazard manner in which documents were sent from Kharkiv to Kyiv and the fact that often they did not find the right address or were lost.

The manuscript of the book on Haydamaka has not been published yet (it is slated for 2010) so I guess this accounts for own research. Bandurist (talk) 17:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)_Kiev"> _Kiev">

Достеменно невідомі також ті фактори, які спричинили майже повну відсутність у Галузевому державному архіві СБ України наказів та розпоряджень ДПУ УСРР 1922–1933 рр. Можливо, тут далися взнаки ті самі обставини, що й у випадку з документами союзного Центру. Не виключено, що вони були втрачені під час Другої світової війни, коли архівні документи вивозилися з Києва до Казахстану. Могли бути на те й інші причини, документальних підтверджень яким немає. From the archives of the Ukrainian secret Service p.22 Bandurist (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)_Kiev"> _Kiev">

redirect and merge

I think the relevant information about denial of the famine itself, such as Soviet policy Duranty, and Tottle, should be added to the Holodomor article. Then have this be a redirect, perhaps to a denial section of the main Holodomor article. However, right now the tag says to merge with the Holodomor#Was the Holodomor genocide? section. I would not support this, as this article and topic has nothing to do with the use of the word genocide. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 01:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


Ostape, I still think that this issue is important enough to keep it as a separate article. In twenty four hours this article has stirred up such an amount of discussion. There are apparently those who still try to write it off as an "agricultural Oops".

Right now, the government of Ukraine is making Holodomor denial illegal. Do you know the latest on that?

There is a rather extensive (correctly so) article about Holocaust denial. I think that the Holodomor was at least as bad as the Holocaust.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 01:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess the use of word denial seems to be the core of the problem, as it subliminally attempts to pass a judgement whether it is right or wrong to deny Holodomor and in a way mimics the Holocaust denial. I think this is the wrong path to follow and it is wrong to pass judgement on people who deny Holodomor just as it is wrong to pass a judgement on people who do not believe that Jesus ever existed. The fact that the current government of Ukraine chose to move toward legal definition of Holodomor denial makes it even more troublesome. There have been and still are people, who deny that it ever existed - whatever they believe was the cause of this tragedy is beyond the point right now. In fact, there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of those who question this in Ukraine alone. While I disagree with that view, putting emphasis on denial is wrong. There are millions of people who deny that God ever existed, yet there is no God denial article. Neither should there be one about Holodomor denial. All this information can and should be mentioned in the Holodomor article. Creating an article about an issue as charged as this one will only flair up emotions and will lead to another edit war, which is already starting. Move info from this article to Holodomor and redirect this article there. --Hillock65 (talk) 02:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Hillock65, I think you hit the nail right on the head. There are many people who still deny the existence of the Holodomor, and many people are still uncomfortable talking about it. That's exactly what this article is about - not what caused the famine, nor the consequences. However, the Holodomor did happen, and there were (and still are) active attempts to prove that it did not. I think the scope of those actions - official and unofficial - warrants a separate article.
It is also true that this is a very emotionally charged issue, and it is sad that some editors cannot focus on just writing a good encyclopedia article, but that is something Misplaced Pages will probably never get away from.
Thanks, Horlo (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

destruction of archives

На жаль, наявні в архівах України взагалі і у відомчому архіві Служби безпеки України зокрема нормативно�розпорядчі документи Об’єдна� ного державного політичного управління СРСР (рос.: Объеди� ненное государственное политическое управление, ОГПУ) є скоріш винятком, аніж правилом. Центральні органи радян� ських спецслужб за властивими їм законами діловодства намагалися не залишати у республіканських підрозділах документів щодо своєї спрямовуючої діяльності. За канонами секретності чимало документів підлягало поверненню відправ� никам або систематично знищувалось, оскільки існували терміни та суворий порядок обліку й зберігання конкретного виду документів. From a publication by the Ukrainian Secret Service p. 22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandurist (talkcontribs) 16:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

annoying tags

Now that this article has developed and changed with the help of many editors, can whoever added the tags say exactly what is wrong so that the other editors can work to correct the article and they can remove the tags? Ostap 05:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Tags removed

The tags were removed - no reasons were given for keeping them.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Motion to remove merge tag

I think that this tag should be removed for two reasons: first, it has grown too large, with the contribution of too many editors, to become part of another article.

Second, I think that it is important enough to keep as a separate article.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I will be bold and remove it because merging to the "was it genocide?" section is not even the correct subject. Ostap 08:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

New sections

I feel that the article would benefit from a seperate section analysing the reasons for Holodomor denial and also possibly a section on Holodomor revisionism. Thoughts? Bandurist (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it also the denial that it was a genocide

Isn't Holodomor denial also a term for denying that it was a genocide ?--Molobo (talk) 18:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

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