Revision as of 06:48, 5 January 2008 editMBisanz (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users126,668 edits →3RR help needed: res← Previous edit | Revision as of 06:57, 5 January 2008 edit undoThuranX (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers20,147 edits →Repeated removal of tags at Holodomor denial: that too ktoo longNext edit → | ||
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So whats wrong with these now democratic nations telling their stories on WP, according to the published sources of their imprisonment by the totalitarian regime that was no different from Nazi Germany? Again, in case you do have any alternative POV-s you might support, like the conservative-communist-stalinist revisionism would fit well the pattern of ideas you have been representing, why don't you just add the POV to the article? Or doesn't the "denial of the Holodomor denial", the stalinist-soviet sympathizer ideology allow any room for alternative viewpoints like it was common practice also for the totalitarian regime, suppress the liberal and free thought and ideas? I'm not getting it, what exactly do you think you're going to accomplish here? Even though the article is currently about the denial of the famine, not about the denial of the famine as a genocide, sooner or later there are going to be more and more countries added to these 15 who have recognized holodomor as a genocide. The soviet union is in the histories garbage bin and there are free nations emerged who are free to express their POV on WP like any other party, including the conservative-communists who might hold, in your words "axe-grinding" against Easter Europe because they helped to end the prison state -communist-Soviet-empire. The WP:NPOV requires, in case there are conflicting perspectives, each should be presented fairly. So why do you hesitate adding the POV you support to the article instead keep trying to put the subject away by any means possible including listing it for deletion and bringing it here at the notice board?--] (]) 06:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC) | So whats wrong with these now democratic nations telling their stories on WP, according to the published sources of their imprisonment by the totalitarian regime that was no different from Nazi Germany? Again, in case you do have any alternative POV-s you might support, like the conservative-communist-stalinist revisionism would fit well the pattern of ideas you have been representing, why don't you just add the POV to the article? Or doesn't the "denial of the Holodomor denial", the stalinist-soviet sympathizer ideology allow any room for alternative viewpoints like it was common practice also for the totalitarian regime, suppress the liberal and free thought and ideas? I'm not getting it, what exactly do you think you're going to accomplish here? Even though the article is currently about the denial of the famine, not about the denial of the famine as a genocide, sooner or later there are going to be more and more countries added to these 15 who have recognized holodomor as a genocide. The soviet union is in the histories garbage bin and there are free nations emerged who are free to express their POV on WP like any other party, including the conservative-communists who might hold, in your words "axe-grinding" against Easter Europe because they helped to end the prison state -communist-Soviet-empire. The WP:NPOV requires, in case there are conflicting perspectives, each should be presented fairly. So why do you hesitate adding the POV you support to the article instead keep trying to put the subject away by any means possible including listing it for deletion and bringing it here at the notice board?--] (]) 06:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC) | ||
::Well, at LEAST we've got Gatoclass' objection down. He doesn't believe there IS such a thign as the PHRASE 'holomodor denial'. are there any sources out there which use it? Link them here, and we can bring them to the article, and then we can address Gatoclass' bigoted 'you're all a cabal' racist attitudes. ] (]) 06:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
== Where do I take this mess? == | == Where do I take this mess? == |
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Unblock of Callmebc
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. So, about a month ago Callmebc was indefinitely blocked because he had basically given up on "editing in a collaborative spirit" and was becoming abusive and disruptive over the topic. Since there was no apparent way to fix his behavior, he was blocked for a long period of time. While blocked, he has remained up to date as a lurker on the topic he was previously engaged in, and we have been (quite genially, I might add) discussing how his editing habits might be improved, since he has an honest desire to contribute to these subjects in a constructive fashion. As you can see from his block log, he has not been a perfect editor, to put it mildly — however, we've discussed a lot of these issues, and I think he has a sincere desire to begin "editing in a collaborative spirit". Since I'm not here to play parole officer, or pretend I'm some kind of behavior-police (something which I do not believe is the correct role of admins), I've mostly discussed with him how to address the concerns many people brought up in his previous blocks, and the discussion which led up to his indefinite block. In any case, since I didn't want to put words in his mouth or set "conditions" for unblocking him, we decided that he should work up a statement of compromises that he's willing to make to engage his unblock. Statement by "Callmebc" I wish to be unblocked from Misplaced Pages. I was indefinitely blocked apparently because of my attitude -- I put accuracy above all else, and I don't play well with others whom I suspect of not being honest. This has led me to be combative and somewhat sarcastic at times, with both other editors and admins. While I feel very strongly that whatever comments I have made were entirely justified in context, I understand that Misplaced Pages is not all about being accurate at all costs -- it is a social, collaborative effort requiring some degree of patience, tolerance, encouragement and giving editors and admins the benefit of the doubt even when I strongly disagree with what is being said or done. I've been inactive over a month and thought about behaviorial & attitude changes I can agree to that would strike a balance between my wanting things accurate and up to date in a timely manner, and the Wiki process of collaboration and WP:AGF. This is what I think would be a good compromise: 1) I will refrain from making any changes at all to the main article page without first going through a Talk page discussion. If the discussion degrades to WP:TE, and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and WP:GAME (as is often the case with politically sensitive topics), I will still avoid simply going ahead to make the changes anyway and instead will follow Misplaced Pages policies regarding WP:DR The only exceptions I'll will be blatant vandalism and substantial undiscussed changes I have problems with in terms of accuracy and content -- I will just revert the first as a matter of course, and will revert the second with a note on the editor's home page to please discuss first on the Talk page. In the second case, if the editor makes an effort to discuss the changes, I will follow consensus and not object to putting the changes back even if I still have problems with them. If it is an issue with a single editor wanting to change something and there is no other feedback from anyone else, I will instead again follow Misplaced Pages policies regarding WP:DR rather than engage in an edit war. 2) I will endeavor to be polite, regardless of the circumstances and provocation. The articles I tend to be interested in are politically charged and regularly draw in anonymous IP's, sock/meatpuppets and the like. In the worst case I will only adopt a neutral tone and will strive to avoid even making sarcastic remarks, however "appropriate" the circumstances might be. 3) I will give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and then some, regardless of my suspicions. I will even go further and start with a clean sheet in regards to editors and admins I have bumped heads with in the past and regardless of my personal opinions. In real life, you get to pick your job but not your coworkers, and you are expected to get along regardless. The same is much the case with the Misplaced Pages -- you can pick which articles to work on, but you can't choose your coeditors, and you should try to get along regardless. They may include people you would never want to socialize with, but that's not the point of why you're there in either case. 4) In a nutshell, I will endeavor to improve the quality of articles without violating, however accidently, the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. -BC aka Callmebc As you can see, it basically amounts to a self-imposed probation on all articles, with civility probation attached. I think this will satisfy most of the concerns which surrounded his editing pre-block, but I wanted to bring it up for discussion here. So, what do you think? It would be helpful if comment could focus on particular requirements you think are not met in this, if you are opposed. For consideration, --Haemo (talk) 04:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I guess I can go along with this. The tone of his message is reasonable and the editing conditions he's come up with for himself look quite decent. Someone will always be around to enforce them. I don't think a topic-ban is necessary - if he comes back and does the same thing over-and-over-again we can just slap the ban back on. Cheers, Moreschi 10:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I am a firm believer in second chances, but I think the myriad chances given to this user to shape up have been completely exhausted. It's rather easy for uninvolved spectators to say he should be allowed to try to edit articles again, but as a person who's borne the brunt of his attacks and incivility, I wouldn't consider it an option. ~ UBeR (talk) 19:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Since ArbCom determined that User:Vintagekits deserves a second chance, then this erudite and productive editor deserves several - and promptly. Alice 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Passionate at times. If he can control that, he will be a great editor. In addition, notice that, to the best of our knowledge, he has not used socks which supports the view that he is a good editor, just loses it at times. Give him a chance. Brusegadi (talk) 06:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It's now five days since the matter of Callmebc's block and user talk page protection was raised here. Although Guy does not seem to violently disapprove of the protection being removed, he's still omitted to un-protect User talk:Callmebc (I also requested that here). Mindful of ArbCom's opinion in another matter: "Since administrators are strongly discouraged from reversing one another's blocks, it is of particular importance that blocking admins respond to good-faith requests to review blocks they have made. Similarly, administrators who perform independent reviews of unblock requests are expected to familiarize themselves with the full facts of the matter before marking the unblock request "declined."" and "It is important for all users, but especially administrators, to be aware of their own agendas, feelings and passions, and to deal with them appropriately, avoiding both biased editing and ill-considered administrative actions.", can anyone now suggest a way forward since the consensus seems to be to exercise some generosity of spirit here? Alice 02:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I see nothing productive that can come from this user on the Killian Documents issue. He should be unblocked only on condition he stay away from that topic, per Guy. Otherwise he'll go right back to insisting on including his original research in that article (and I'll be happy to return from my Wikibreak for the express purpose of stopping that from happening). - Merzbow (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If nobody is going to reply or deal with this, please would the admins that previously said they would update us do so now and then this section can fairly be archived - otherwise it just looks like it's being swept under the carpet again. Haemo? Alice 09:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
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User:Lopakhin and the Jewish Encyclopedia
Lopakhin (talk · contribs) has created a number of articles that are almost verbatim copies of articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia. See for instance Barthold Dowe Burmania and , Seligman Baer Bamberger and , Davicion Bally and , etcetera. The Jewish Encyclopedia says on the bottom of each article: "Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved." Are these articles violations of the copyrights of the Jewish Encyclopedia, or do we have an agreement with the Jewish Encyclopedia about the use of their content? Aecis 16:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note: the articles appear to have been created in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Jewish Encyclopedia topics. Aecis 16:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merely republishing a public-domain work with a copyright notice does not take it out of the public domain. They specifically state the contents are unedited, therefore they probably cannot claim copyright. The copyright notice is probably only intended to apply to the website layout etc, not the article contents. I've sent them an e-mail asking for clarification. —Random832 18:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
This totally sucks. No, it can hardly be copyvio, but we should NOT be using the Jewish Encyclopaedia as a source anymore, no more than we should Britannica 1911 nor the Catholic Encyclopaedia 1913. Outdated and partisan sources like this are not good enough for Misplaced Pages any more. We've outgrown them. Come on, we can surely do better than this. Moreschi 19:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hear, hear! I'm personally glad we did use those Brittanica dumps as a starting point - in my opinion they helped us grow faster - but nowadays there's no excuse for relying on 70+-year-old material just because it's out of copyright. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, thats an opinion I've expressed before in specific instances of JE references. Its hopelessly partisan and out of date, and while references can't be removed they should be inserted with extreme attention to the lack of quality often displayed in these articles. Avruchtalk 21:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm confused, is this about using the JE as a source for article text or as a reference in any shape? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JASpencer (talk • contribs) 21:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Firstly I think that Lopakhin has been doing a good job in creating these articles, and I hope that the work rate keeps going. I think the problem is that the guidelines on externally present articles are not at all clear. I would suggest that there are two alternatives:
- (1) To text dump the articles into a sandbox and only to release the articles after they meet (a) NPOV criteria, (b) have up to date language and (c) remove outdated references (eg 1908 population statistics), or
- (2) Create a one line summary article which asserts notability and includes a link to the old encyclopedia to meet WP:V and have either a talk page tag or (less preferably) an external list of the "expandable articles".
JASpencer (talk) 21:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Jewish Encyclopedia is in Public Domain, and therefore copying text from there to Misplaced Pages is not a copyvio. The quality and today's relevance of the articles there differ dramatically - it would be absolutely wrong to claim that that every article is "hopelessly partisan and out of date". There are plenty of articles which are as up-to-date today as they were a century ago. If anyone feels that particular text copied from JE doesn't meet the Misplaced Pages quality standards, it should be dealt on per article basis. I am sure user Lopakhin used his best judgment when picking the articles. Wikiolap (talk) 19:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
George Reeves Person returning??
It would appear that the George Reeves Person (whoever he might be) is returning to Misplaced Pages. Judging by the post here - , it seems like the George Reeves Person/Squidward is returning to Misplaced Pages.
Looks like we might have to restore Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/George Reeves Person (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) that was deleted as a courtesy - since he seems intent on returning.
I also notice he's trying to incite people to vandalise Misplaced Pages too, from what I read.
Should the page be restored or kept deleted?? I'd take it to deletion review, but I'm not sure if we should ignore this or see if he does come back.
Hope this is of help to you all. --Solumeiras 21:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Solumeiras...how did you discover the post? I just find it weird that you found it and posted here about it all within 8 minutes of it being posted to that web forum. Metros (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Heh, I had it open in another tab on my browser... was reading it for a completely different issue - unrelated to Misplaced Pages (sex/relationships related!) That web forum is one I read regularly anyway, quite entertaining to read, sometimes not worksafe though! I myself was surprised to see it. I've no idea who this George Reeves person is, but whoever he is, isn't he banned or something?? --Solumeiras 22:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
help sought
A few days ago user:ScienceApologist (a productive editor) was blocked for 72 hours for incivility and related issues. He had had such issues before as well. After considerable discussion, the roots of the problem seem to be that he is trying to ensure balanced and fair handling of scientific topics, but he feels that when faced with unscientific viewpoints, he will be unsupported if he seeks help, and considered uncivil if he tries to deal with it himself.
Whilst there may be many views on this perception, the bottom line is, he has been suggested to use dispute resolution and factual descriptions of editing problems, and use the community to help in such issues, rather than sharp words and uncivil personal views on editors ("calling a spade a spade").
I'd like to ask if a couple of experienced admins who are neutral in science/pseudoscience type issues, possibly with some mediation-type ability, might be willing to offer themselves as people he can contact if he has a problem, for a more immediate response/input/handling? Thus supporting him better, and maybe making it easier to get this kind of problem resolved without wondering how much time or hassle it will take if he can't speak as he's used to :)
Relevant background (shortish): User_talk:ScienceApologist#Handling_problem_editors.
Thanks to anyone able and willing!
FT2 —Preceding comment was added at 22:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- The major problem here is that ScienceApologist has enemies, and those enemies know his hot buttons and press them relentlessly. Getting SA out of the way would be a major step forward for those wishing to promote fringe and pseudoscientific views on Misplaced Pages; he's a standard bearer for scientific rationalism, well educated and articulate. The various arbitration cases surrounding paranormal subjects, such as Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal and the non-standard cosmologies case, show how determined the fringe advocates are. I'm trying to help as much as I can. Guy (Help!) 22:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- In part yes, but the issue here and now is, he has made clear he doubts that he will get prompt support and help if he did try a more "DR" type approach. Support may provide either reassurance, or skilled input if a dispute arises. In both cases he may feel if it's in competent hands, or he has competent admins to pass it to who will help resolve it properly, then he may not feel under such pressure personally to act himself, as he has been. If he felt he had support that would act effectively, that could only be good for both him and for the project. FT2 22:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is another problem, of course, which is that in most of these cases the neutral point of view is much closer to the scientific point of view than the paranormal. Which means that the paranormal supporters will not consider the neutral parties to be neutral, and anyone they do consider neutral probably won't be :-/ Guy (Help!) 22:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I mostly agree with JzG here. Though, I find a substantial problem with many folks trying simply to insist on use or not use of the word pseudoscience. Even in "mainstream" academia there is plenty of poor (even pseudo) science that has gone on, and is going on. If we keep to clear explainations of sources, and not worry about 'labels' as much, we might keep the heat lower on some of these topics as well. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is another problem, of course, which is that in most of these cases the neutral point of view is much closer to the scientific point of view than the paranormal. Which means that the paranormal supporters will not consider the neutral parties to be neutral, and anyone they do consider neutral probably won't be :-/ Guy (Help!) 22:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
If people are willing to help me with this, please add your names to User:ScienceApologist#Administrative helpmates. I really do appreciate this. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Whether or not an editor considers an administrator neutral is one problem. The more immediate one is helping SA to feel he can stand back a bit from the line of direct confrontation, in favor of more dispute-skilled others who can help him better, when an actual problem conduct or dispute is at hand. This will keep disputes down a lot. As a community, we appoint mentors (and admins step in on disputes) every day, routinely. First things first, then deal with any genuine remaining issues. FT2 22:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I will help as much as I can as a user, and I will step in and say that ScienceApologist's experience seems very real to me. There is a problem with admins that misapply NPOV when the article is about scientifically nonsensical subjects. The one and only time I have been blocked was for "edit warring" on What the Bleep Do We Know, and I have had my behaviour reviewed by one other editor and an admin that I have edited controversial articles on Misplaced Pages with, both of whom were surprised that blocking was considered or done.Kww (talk) 22:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Whether or not an editor considers an administrator neutral is one problem. The more immediate one is helping SA to feel he can stand back a bit from the line of direct confrontation, in favor of more dispute-skilled others who can help him better, when an actual problem conduct or dispute is at hand. This will keep disputes down a lot. As a community, we appoint mentors (and admins step in on disputes) every day, routinely. First things first, then deal with any genuine remaining issues. FT2 22:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Wait a second! For months now I thought that FT2 and NE2 are the same person and only now I, indirectly, learn otherwise. Not a good sign. El_C 02:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- So, let me get this straight, is ScienceApologist seeking people who can help him be more civil? Or his he seeking people who can be uncivil for him on his behalf? Perhaps one solution would be to split wikipedia into two, and let ScienceApologist edit one half, and the other one could be "wackypedia"?--feline1 (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User:TTN/monobook.js
User:TTN is using Twinkle to make large number of high speed controversial edits. Would someone be good enough to remove his access please?Geni 00:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Can you be more specific? Avruchtalk 00:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. Diff's would help. Resolute 00:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- We have had discussions similar to this before. TTN is always making high-speed merges without really getting a consensus, and it seems he can now do it even faster with Twinkle. I'll alert TTN of this discussion, by the way. jj137 00:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- It seems that has already been done -- jj137 00:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The only ones I used TW with recently were ones that underwent discussion, but were brought back anyways without as much of a peep on a talk page. I don't really see that as contraversial. TTN (talk) 00:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'll provide some diffs. . jj137 00:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Looks to me like User:Catchpole needs a severe talking to.Kww (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I started boldy restoring content due to the response at Talk:List of Scrubs episodes. Many editors have complained about the WP:EPISODE on that guidelines talk-page. I then saw similar insstances where TV shows had been merged and redirected without a consensus and so similary restored the content. Catchpole (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Looks to me like User:Catchpole needs a severe talking to.Kww (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'll provide some diffs. . jj137 00:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The only ones I used TW with recently were ones that underwent discussion, but were brought back anyways without as much of a peep on a talk page. I don't really see that as contraversial. TTN (talk) 00:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- It seems that has already been done -- jj137 00:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- We have had discussions similar to this before. TTN is always making high-speed merges without really getting a consensus, and it seems he can now do it even faster with Twinkle. I'll alert TTN of this discussion, by the way. jj137 00:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I cry "foul"! If TTN is using Twinkle to do his work, the Twinkle developers should consider optimising it to do whatever it is he needs done. Making his task harder by preventing him from using tools isn't reasonable.Kww (talk) 00:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- (To initiator of this thread and in general) I thought the first step would have been to discuss this directly with the user first, before deciding its needs admin attention. Seraphim 00:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't there an ArbCom decision admonishing TTN regarding these types of actions? Can someone post the relevant text?Thanks! 00:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- TTN went through all the necessary steps for a merger this time round, short of flashing neon signs on the main page. Catchpole isn't even attempting to discuss. Will 00:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Where did TTN discuss this on the target merger page? Where was this discussed and supported? I couldn't find anything. Lawrence Cohen 00:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- There was no arbcom decision against him. The arbitrators split, and could not manage to pass any motion admonishing TTN. He has a lot of fans, because he is doing a good job of a necessary task.Kww (talk) 00:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- (ec x2)Final decision here, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Episodes_and_characters#Final_decision. TTN was not admonished. Seraphim 00:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Still it was stated that the editors involved should seek consensus on the issue. I don't see TTN seeking consensus at all, rather he keeps up doing what he has been doing in the past - rapid, semi-automated editing, mass "mergers" and down talking to editors. CharonX/talk 01:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- TTN went through all the necessary steps for a merger this time round, short of flashing neon signs on the main page. Catchpole isn't even attempting to discuss. Will 00:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- His edit summaries are saying to refer to talk on Talk:List of Stargate SG-1 episodes, but there appears to be no comments from him there? Is he just redirecting entire seasons of TV shows and changing all those articles to be redirects? If there is objection to this activity, wouldn't it require consensus to proceed? What user name discussed doing this? Lawrence Cohen 00:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Stargate#SG-1 Episode notability. The project agreed that some articles failed the guideline. Will 00:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Must be a small project then, there is hardly any discussion. Shouldn't something like this be mentioned on the target page, rather than some out of the way corner of Misplaced Pages that most editors may not be watching? TTN just swooped in based on that? I don't see him participating. Lawrence Cohen 00:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Shouldn't one of the people that participated in that discussion have made the necessary redirects, and not TTN? It looks to me like he just "swooped in". jj137 00:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- There does seem to be some controversy about use of TW by editors lately. See here for a recent example. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- It was talked about they seem to be in the process of transwiki, this is no big deal and not the type of thing that took him to ARBCOM. Seems like every time he performs a redirect people are going to jump all over him. Ridernyc (talk) 01:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- If you look at the edit histories for those articles, you'll see that the merger/redirects were originally performed by sgeureka (talk), reverted by Catchpole (talk), and redone by TTN, probably by just hitting the undo or revert button, which is what made it possible to do them so fast. They were discussed by Sgeureka on the project talk page in advance, with a reference to the discussion on the episode list article with no objections or comment by Catchpole. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 02:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- three editors is not wide enough participation for something of this magnitude. TTN is violating the spirit fo the arbcom decision--it was that census was required, and it was up to us editing here to find it. They were right about that, and continued edits without substantial consensus might be good grounds for reopening. One is supposed to learn something from an arb com. Many of us hoped they would say something one way or the other giving more direct guidance, but if they think we can deal with it ourselves, they deserve that we give it a good try in good faith--not try to see how much one can get away with. Transwiki to Wikia is not a reason for unilateral action--its not a wmf project like Wiktionary. Anyone who performs mass actions in controversial matters, damn right people are going to complain about it. Now its up to us to follow through on those complaints. DGG (talk) 06:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- There was not a single complaint (rather the opposite) in the last five or six weeks about the transwiki I (in this case not TTN) was doing. Catchpole did not leave a comment at the LoE talk page, my talkpage, or the WikiProject talk page, all of which I have watchlisted, so I had no idea that he resurrected the episode articles despite the (my) last edit summary Redirect after discussions in the SG wikiproject and the List of Episodes talkpage. Now transwikied to wikia. Please give significant real-world information when/if resurrecting this article. The only controversial thing here are Catchpole's may-I-say-sneaky actions, which TTN promptly undid. TTN had and still has unglorious moments, but this is clearly not one of them. – sgeureka 09:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sneaky? I didn't realise I was required to fill out multiple forms to edit the encyclopedia. Whatever happened to being bold? Catchpole (talk) 10:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, these redirects have been discussed at length at the appropriate forums, and the edit summary was quite clear what to do (and what not to do). As you ignored both consensus and failed to leave a note *somewhere* so that others would notice, despite you being an established wikipedian who should know better, I can only call such an action "sneaky" (for lack of a better word). – sgeureka 12:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sneaky? I didn't realise I was required to fill out multiple forms to edit the encyclopedia. Whatever happened to being bold? Catchpole (talk) 10:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- There was not a single complaint (rather the opposite) in the last five or six weeks about the transwiki I (in this case not TTN) was doing. Catchpole did not leave a comment at the LoE talk page, my talkpage, or the WikiProject talk page, all of which I have watchlisted, so I had no idea that he resurrected the episode articles despite the (my) last edit summary Redirect after discussions in the SG wikiproject and the List of Episodes talkpage. Now transwikied to wikia. Please give significant real-world information when/if resurrecting this article. The only controversial thing here are Catchpole's may-I-say-sneaky actions, which TTN promptly undid. TTN had and still has unglorious moments, but this is clearly not one of them. – sgeureka 09:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Arbcom ruled collaboration. TTN is just merely continuing his edit behaviour and I see no evidence of collaboration on his part. Had there truly been a consensus no one would be revert waring or even reverting. A non-controversial edit would be trivial stuff like double redirect fixing. Something is controversial by nature if it is disputed. -- Cat 22:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that if no-one complains to a proposal where there'd be the most views for six weeks, it's not controversial. Will 22:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- In other words I can nominate the Main Page for deletion and get it deleted if no one notices. If there are no views aside from the nominator that is by default a failed proposal as it received no discussion. Articles do not need to have watchdogs. Also how is someone writing Fire and Water (Stargate SG-1) article supposed to be aware of such a proposal? Do not expect or require to watch articles they have no edits on. There is a reason for {{merge}} though whats been done is not a merge. People are tired of the non-stop merge discussion involving thousands of articles. The speed of merge/blanking means no one has actually read these. Articles are either Good Articles or redirects. Nothing is in between. -- Cat 14:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that if no-one complains to a proposal where there'd be the most views for six weeks, it's not controversial. Will 22:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
121.45.181.31 removes external references again
Hereby I report trolling behaviour of unregistered user 121.45.181.31 again (previously I did that on 1 Jan at 21:02).
He repeated his actions on 2 Jan, at 07:29
(with comment There is no source for this info and it seems to be just an opinion).
Is he playing dumb?
He has removed the references, that had explicit explanations why are they necessary.
Despite being warned by user Avruch with two messages on 1 Jan at 22:220 and 22:25 , that troll continued with same behaviour. Kubura (talk) 10:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Axctually, the section he removed deserved deletion. as to the external links, if they were references, they should've been in-line'd and/or put int he references section, not the EL. I'm more concerned by your most recent edit there, where you switched the reference which the only explanation being some noise about how it was a pdf. the other ref appeared to be a book. ThuranX (talk) 13:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC
Please, ThuranX, if you're not an admin, nor an involved person in this case, don't interfere.
How can you give right to someone who deletes external links? Are you suggesting the support to trolling behaviour: ignoring of references, section blanking, deleting of references (sources with content that POV-izer don't want to see) that are opponents' arguments that you cannot beat? Where would Misplaced Pages end then? If you can't tell the difference between the scientific article and the book, please, don't mess into encyclopedic stuff. If you don't know the purpose of external links, don't mess. Read wiki-manuals. Don't burden WP:ANI with unnecessarily taken disk space. Sincerely, Kubura (talk) 15:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me? "don't interfere"> Anyone can post here. Any editor can look into any section here, and offer an opinion. Often, that can help admins see their interpretation is supported, or disputed by others, making them give more reasoned explanations of their actions, or rework their actions to a more supported solution. It's a major check/balance on the AN/I. I've read the 'wiki-manuals'. Since all you've said is basic trolling, and no explanation for the change in citation, then move on. The edit was questionable, and I stand by that. ThuranX (talk) 06:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Qwl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
An editor in need of a bit of attention, I think. Single-purpose account pushing Turk nationalist POV only (anti-Kurd, anti-Armenian, this being a good example), see in particular edits to Armenian Genocide and Talk:Armenian Genocide. His talk page looks innocuous but check its history - a lot has been removed, including the whole discussion concerning his block for edit warring. Any ideas as to what to do? Moreschi 12:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Certainly up to no good - and his English frankly doesn't make the grade for editing here either. --Folantin (talk) 12:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
user:Sfacets
sfacets (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has just finished a block and piled straigh in with this: . As far as I'm concerned this is deliberately pressing the self-destruct button, I have blocked for a month because it's clear that everyone who's ever come across this user has to watch his behaviour whenever he is unblocked at present. I'm not opposed to shortening (if someone wants to take on the job of helping him not to disrupt, push POV, harass other users and in sundry other ways be a dick) or lengthening to indef if people think we should wash our hands of him. Guy (Help!) 13:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is just one in a long line of reasons that I believe we would be better off without this particular user. The user has uploaded some suspicious images in the past, fought to keep them from being deleted by making many contradictory claims (including having taken pictures before he was born) and attacking those involved in the deletion discussion and now re-uploads them on the sly despite being warned not to. This most recent action is more harassment of the editor who originally discovered the copyright infringements. Since the user does not seem to care about violating copyright, its unlikely that his presence will do anything but hurt the project. Shell 13:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have engaged in a discussion on his talk page - it is not going well. He seems to feel that his harrassment of Will Beback and re-uploading the image which has already been deleted something like 8 times are ok. The edits to the archived RFCU page might just be a mistake, but the others seem implausible to have any non-disruptive interpretation, and he is sticking with his story that he hasn't done anything wrong.
- More uninvolved editors taking a look at the situation and commenting on his talk page may help clarify in his mind that he really does have a problem. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Opinion provided and unblock request declined. Sandstein (talk) 22:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Sfacets indefinitely blocked
Following the discussion on Sfacets' talk page, I have concluded that he is too disruptive and not willing to contribute to the encyclopedia under our community policies and guidelines. Pursuant to that, and given that he believes his disruptive actions were perfectly ok, I believe there's nothing we can do to reform him and that an indefinite block is in order. He has a long problem history, and is entirely unrepentant.
I have unblocked him and reblocked him indefinitely, both to clear the JzG block (legit appearance of conflict of interest question over RFC filed against JzG, though I don't believe it has underlying merit) and to impose the appropriate indef block.
As with any block of mine, especially indefinite ones of longstanding users, I invite other admins to review in detail and if you disagree feel free to undo it. I believe that this is going to be a community ban, and that he is not reformable, but I leave it up to the rest of the administrator communities' judgement whether I have acted appropriately here, etc. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- When someone's block log is so long that you have to scroll down to read the whole thing, you get the impression that they may not fully embrace Misplaced Pages's norms. Support indef. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Copacabana
I believe an article which I helped to construct has been a victim of abuse of power by an administrator, and decided to write here in request for help, since the dialogue between all the parties has been aggressive and offense-riddled.
I have been envolved for some time in a discussion about the Copacabana -- Copacabana (disambiguation), and I think it may need some external arbitration. I have reorganized the article, in order to classify the topics being disambiguated by order of relevance, that is, cities first, then neighbourhoods, then nightclubs and other places named 'Copacabana'. Sadly, my changes kept being reverted and I was repeatedly insulted by an individual native from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, who kept offending me and, unable to disguise his nationalistic bias and partiality, would not accept that there should even be a disambiguation page for what he considered to be "his" Copacabana (Rio de Janeiro), and even when a consensus was achieved that this page should indeed exist, he kept altering the page in order to have his Copacabana (Rio) on top of the list, even though it is a neighbourhood, in contrast to cities which were named Copacabana hundreds of years before.
User:EconomistBR, the user in question, appealed to an administrator, User:Hu12, who took an unfair and unbalanced view, in my opinion, and exercised his prerrogative to block the page in a somewhat arrogant and authoritarian way, refusing to properly debate the subject. Furthermore, he has blocked the page for editing without properly double-checking it, therefore leaving the page with some spelling and editing mistakes (pieces of links which do not work etc). I appeal to all other administrators who might be interested in helping me solve this problem to take a look at that page and see what could best be done for the good of Misplaced Pages, which, in my point of view, has been the only harmed in this débacle. Rsazevedo (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- (2x ec) As the main search term was a redirect to a disambig page (which makes no sense), I've gone ahead and fixed that. east.718 at 15:18, January 3, 2008
- Discussion location → Talk:Copacabana. I might also add this page is being extremly disrupted by Rsazevedo. My protecting the page was a reuslt of severe disruption by Rsazevedo after an appeal by User:EconomistBR here →User_talk:Hu12#Request_for_really_simple_conflict_resolution. Neither versions seemed to follow Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). Both parties participated in edit warring and WP:NPA, however Rsazevedo seems to have engaged in tendentious editing in pursuit of a certain point for an extended period of time attempt to disrupt Misplaced Pages in order to illustrate a point and despite discussions, is perpetuating this conflict through the use of brute force and Harassment.
- "CNN talks about it". Oooooh, I'm impressed! :) What kind of an argument is that, "CNN talks about it"? hahahahahah
- Why the hell did you delete my entry in the discussion in the Copacabana article?
- Are you mentally challenged?
- By the way, the correct spelling is "biased", and not BISED; you should know better, cause you seem to fit that concept perfectly.
- Man, you really are a nut job! Get a life
- --Hu12 (talk) 16:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Discussion location → Talk:Copacabana. I might also add this page is being extremly disrupted by Rsazevedo. My protecting the page was a reuslt of severe disruption by Rsazevedo after an appeal by User:EconomistBR here →User_talk:Hu12#Request_for_really_simple_conflict_resolution. Neither versions seemed to follow Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). Both parties participated in edit warring and WP:NPA, however Rsazevedo seems to have engaged in tendentious editing in pursuit of a certain point for an extended period of time attempt to disrupt Misplaced Pages in order to illustrate a point and despite discussions, is perpetuating this conflict through the use of brute force and Harassment.
- Once again you are biased, Hu12. You conveniently "forgot" to mention that I had been extremely restrained, even though EconomistBR had been offending me, and it was only after he called me A LIAR in a TOPIC and being repeatedly offended by him that I lost my patience and eventually lashed out -- something which I, BTW, deeply regret and am not proud of. But may I ask why you did not quote his offenses as well?
- 'Rsazevedo you lied to me
- Rsazevedo, you said that Misplaced Pages "is not the place for nationalistic displays" but you displayed an incredible degree of nationalism when you created a page redirect just to get your precious Copacabana Bolivia on top of the alphabetical list.
- Don't worry your Copacabana (Bolivia) is top of list at Misplaced Pages's expense.
- (Your Copacabana Bolivia comes on top is all 3 organizing methods created. It's shameful)
- I have nothing agaist you is just that you lied to me when you said that Misplaced Pages "is not the place for nationalistic displays".
- This is proves that you are bised and corrupted Misplaced Pages for personal ends. It's quite sad really, I always try to be impartial, you've given up on that.
- But I guess your "work" here is done. Your precious Copacabana Bolivia, which you visited, is first on the list. You've spread your personal views at Misplaced Pages corrupting this encyclopedia, and then lied to others about Misplaced Pages not being "the place for nationalistic displays".
- 3 organizing methods the same result - this is Rsazevedo at work Good job, some Brazilian you are.
- You have no shame, you should admit that you are biased. After 3 organizing methods with the same result your lame excuses are a joke.
- Please try to understand my point of view and not be that one-sided. I am NOT a vandal and have always contributed positively to Misplaced Pages, you can check all my previous edits. Have some respect, both for myself and for Misplaced Pages. Rsazevedo (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Another key to the problem here, Rsazevedo. You don't see yourself as having an opinion; you see yourself as bearing the Truth. You perceive your biases as neutral..--Hu12 (talk) 16:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is simply not true, Hu12. I may well have a bias, as everyone does, but this is certainly the case where I have not incurred in that (if I were being biased, wouldn't I change the page in favour of my country, putting Copacabana (Rio) on top as EconomistBR did? On the contrary, I prefered what seemed to me the better way for Misplaced Pages to present a disambiguation page); I simply tried to set the page in a logical and rational way. If you disagree, you could have at least discussed it, something which you, under the cloak of Administrative Authority, has consistently refused to do.
- On the other hand you have been acting with an enormous degree of bias, in favour of EconomistBR, perhaps because he came seeking for help in your talk page, to the point where you chose to portray me here as someone inherently bad who does nothing on Misplaced Pages but offend others and conveniently "forgetting" to post EconomistBR's offences and disruptions. I'm appalled, and considering leaving Misplaced Pages for good if that is the standard of decisions one has to put up with. Rsazevedo (talk) 16:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- This case seems to be an attempt by Rsazevedo to continue to impose one's own view of "standards to apply" rather than those of the community. Attempts to resolve this dispute has resulted in attacks against myself and wholsale mischaracterizing of my good faith actions to make me seem unreasonable or improper. In this situation, Rsazevedo is attempting to perpetuate the disputes act in spite of policies and guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Civility,Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles, by sticking to a WP:POINT, repeating it almost without end, and refusing to acknowledge others' input or their own error. Collectively, disruptive editors harm Misplaced Pages by degrading its reliability as a reference source and by exhausting the patience of productive editors who may quit the project in frustration when a disruptive editor continues with impunity. A slippery slope, in which usualy ends in a block.--Hu12 (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Why did you protect a page you've been involved in a dispute on after reverting to your own version? east.718 at 17:20, January 3, 2008
- Why not? Its not my dispute and an appropriate action due to the disruption.--Hu12 (talk) 17:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Why did you protect a page you've been involved in a dispute on after reverting to your own version? east.718 at 17:20, January 3, 2008
- This case seems to be an attempt by Rsazevedo to continue to impose one's own view of "standards to apply" rather than those of the community. Attempts to resolve this dispute has resulted in attacks against myself and wholsale mischaracterizing of my good faith actions to make me seem unreasonable or improper. In this situation, Rsazevedo is attempting to perpetuate the disputes act in spite of policies and guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Civility,Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles, by sticking to a WP:POINT, repeating it almost without end, and refusing to acknowledge others' input or their own error. Collectively, disruptive editors harm Misplaced Pages by degrading its reliability as a reference source and by exhausting the patience of productive editors who may quit the project in frustration when a disruptive editor continues with impunity. A slippery slope, in which usualy ends in a block.--Hu12 (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- To be fair we can't blame Rzacevedo alone for the uncivil path that led to this content dispute, here is just a nice quote of what the other half (EconomistBR) has said as well: "3 organizing methods the same result - this is Rsazevedo at work Good job, some Brazilian you are." was there really a need to escalate this to the point where one user attacks the other's nationality? I doubt it, either both of them calm down or both receive a nice block for uncivility, no preference for one user or the other. - Caribbean~H.Q. 17:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hu12, I tried to discuss with you my "standards to apply", but you chose to ignore them and in an unprecedent and authoritarian way imposed yours. Does it not seem logical to you that the first city in the world to be called Copacabana should the be the first in the disambiguation page, considering that the others were named after that? And, not only that, should a city not come before a neighbourhood in a list of relevance? I have never received an answer for these topics, and, instead, have been patronized insistentely by you.
- It's behaviours such as these that are the sort of stuff which exhausts the patience of productive editors such as myself and degrade Misplaced Pages's reliability.
- Now, for the last time, I am asking to correct the mistakes you left in Copacabana and answer the question I asked you in its talk page. Rsazevedo (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Rsazevedo, you make serious, baseless and defamatory accusations. I requested Hu12 to resolve our conflict. Since Hu12 is an Misplaced Pages administrator and therefore his impartiality is above doubts, we must be prepared to acknowledge and accept his ruling on our conflict. Instead, by accusing him of being partial and a dictator you, Rsazevedo, drag his name and reputation through the mud.
- Rsazevedo, nothing can stop you from having your way, if it takes bullying and smearing the reputation of a Misplaced Pages Administrator so be it.
- I admit, I behaved badly and in an uncivil manner, so did Rsazevedo. But there was no justification to drag Hu12 into our conflict. Rsazevedo dragged Hu12 into our fight as vengeance because Hu12's decision was not satisfactory to Rsazevedo.
- EconomistBR (talk) 17:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is simply a lie, EconomistBR, as anyone who checks the history of the discussions will tell. I did not "drag" anyone into this, I don't even have the power to do so. You cannot change facts; a lie will always be a lie, no matter how much you scream and shout. And the proof that you don't regret your disgraceful behaviour is that you keep doing the same things, offending me over and over. Will any responsible administrator take a stand against this person? I am being seriously offended by him, and this shouldn't be allowed to go on.
- Can an administrator also please fix the mistakes left by Hu12 when he blocked the Copacabana page? I explained them in the talk page, and Hu12 doesn't seem to be very interested in correcting the page, only in preventing me from editing it. Rsazevedo (talk) 18:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Why didn't one of you just opened a request for comment before involving a admin in this? disputes like this one are better solved with consensus of the community instead of a admin making the choice. - Caribbean~H.Q. 18:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- There was no community on that page just the 2 of us, I had previously tried to reach consensus with Rsazevedo, but he simply ignored me, undid my editing and written some excuse justifying his actions. The Rsazevedo has twice undone edits made by Hu12. Hu12 edited the list and we should have both accpeted it but he embarked on this smearing campaign to get things his way.
- Rsazevedo calls Hu12 an abusive administrator: "victim of abuse of power by an administrator"
- Rsazevedo accuses Hu12 of having bias: "You have revealed yourself to be tremendously partial do EconomistBR's opinion"
- Rsazevedo calls Hu12 a dictator: "I would appreciate some further explanation of your actions, rather than unsubstantiated dictatorial acts"
- Rsazevedo calls Hu12 arrogant: "exercised his prerrogative to block the page in a somewhat arrogant and authoritarian way"
- Rsazevedo calls Hu12's opinion unfair: "EconomistBR, the user in question, appealed to an administrator, User:Hu12, who took an unfair and unbalanced view"
This smearing campaign and personal attacks of Rsazevedo against Hu12 is Rsazevedo's vengeance against Hu12, because Hu12's impartial ruling didn't produce satisfactory results to Rsazevedo.
I behaved badly and I was uncivil at many times, so was Rsazevedo. But there was NO reason to put Hu12's intergrity into question. This was a low blow EconomistBR (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- EconomistBR, please refrain at once from offending me. I don't think I have to remind you that you're breaking all possible rules in proper behaviour in Misplaced Pages, and I once again call for a responsible administrator to punish you accordingly.
- Keep in mind:
- Misplaced Pages:Civility: be civil and avoid harassment.
- Personal attacks are expressly prohibited because they make Misplaced Pages a hostile environment for editors, and thereby damage Misplaced Pages both as an encyclopedia (by losing valued contributors) and as a wiki community (by discouraging reasoned discussion). Misplaced Pages editors should conduct their relationship with other editors with courtesy, and must avoid responding in kind when personally attacked.
- *Personal attacks are not excused or justified by offers of demonstration of their truth.
- Keep in mind:
- Penalties for behaviour such as the one you're displaying vary in length from a three-month to a one-year ban. Rsazevedo (talk) 19:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I attempted to reach a consensus with Rsazevedo, but he ridiculed me:
- "and much less "CNN talks about it". Oooooh, I'm impressed! :) What kind of an argument is that, "CNN talks about it"? hahahahahah"
Someone who makes this kind of comment doesn't want consensus, he wants to shove his view down everyone's thoats.
Rsazevedo has also offended and ridiculed me other times:
- "Are you mentally challenged?"
- "Now go watch the fireworks in Copacabana and stop crying, Mr Carioca. :)"
- "Man, you really are a nut job! "
- "Get a life, carioca"
- "EconomistBR is the one who is being intolerant" —Preceding unsigned comment added by EconomistBR (talk • contribs) 19:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Here are your displays of impartiality and civility, EconomistBR:
- 'Rsazevedo you lied to me
- Rsazevedo, you said that Misplaced Pages "is not the place for nationalistic displays" but you displayed an incredible degree of nationalism when you created a page redirect just to get your precious Copacabana Bolivia on top of the alphabetical list.
- Don't worry your Copacabana (Bolivia) is top of list at Misplaced Pages's expense.
- (Your Copacabana Bolivia comes on top is all 3 organizing methods created. It's shameful)
- I have nothing agaist you is just that you lied to me when you said that Misplaced Pages "is not the place for nationalistic displays".
- This is proves that you are bised and corrupted Misplaced Pages for personal ends. It's quite sad really, I always try to be impartial, you've given up on that.
- But I guess your "work" here is done. Your precious Copacabana Bolivia, which you visited, is first on the list. You've spread your personal views at Misplaced Pages corrupting this encyclopedia, and then lied to others about Misplaced Pages not being "the place for nationalistic displays".
- 3 organizing methods the same result - this is Rsazevedo at work Good job, some Brazilian you are.
- You have no shame, you should admit that you are biased. After 3 organizing methods with the same result your lame excuses are a joke.
- Here are your displays of impartiality and civility, EconomistBR:
- Once again I call on you, EconomistBR, to refrain at once from offending me. I don't think I have to remind you that you're breaking all possible rules in proper behaviour in Misplaced Pages, and I once again call for a responsible administrator to punish you accordingly.
- Keep in mind:
- Misplaced Pages:Civility: be civil and avoid harassment.
- Personal attacks are expressly prohibited because they make Misplaced Pages a hostile environment for editors, and thereby damage Misplaced Pages both as an encyclopedia (by losing valued contributors) and as a wiki community (by discouraging reasoned discussion). Misplaced Pages editors should conduct their relationship with other editors with courtesy, and must avoid responding in kind when personally attacked.
- *Personal attacks are not excused or justified by offers of demonstration of their truth.
- Keep in mind:
- Penalties for behaviour such as the one you're displaying vary in length from a three-month to a one-year ban. Rsazevedo (talk) 19:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Both blocked
As noted in bold red type at the top, this is not the Misplaced Pages complaints department. Per the recommendation of Caribbean H.Q., I have blocked both Rsazevedo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and EconomistBR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 24 hours in order to stop the out-of-control mudslinging above. Once the block expires, both users are invited to settle their content dispute according to WP:DR. Sandstein (talk) 19:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that the drama continues on their respective talk pages proves that they were talking past, not to, eachother. Unblocks posted, one so far declined, bets on how long before the other? 20:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Calton
While reviewing new edits, I noticed an edit that seemed to boarder on WP:AGF. I mentioned this to him / her and immediately received a response: "You would, in fact, be dead wrong. Go away." I shall refrain from responding to kind of comment. Perhaps someone else could remind him / her to be a little more constructive and less hostile. Thank you. 58.88.55.173 (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Without commenting one way or the other, I have advised Calton of this thread. Pedro : Chat 16:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note that the Hirohito page move issue is kind of a heated topic right now, with some discussion here that might help explain Calton's commentary. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that Calton was previously blocked in November for "continued incivility and taunting", following a block in September for "persistent incivility and taunting of other users"; in fact, this behavior has been going on throughout Calton's editing career, for about three years. Since returning from his last block, he has engaged in further incivility and generally aggressive editing. I suggest that only a block of quite considerable length may be sufficient to convince Calton to follow our policies concerning interaction with other users. Everyking (talk) 18:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The two diffs here, while not commendable, are not in themselves blockworthy. If James (or anyone) has more diffs since the last block we can certainly take a look. Haukur (talk) 19:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Another edit of Calton's caught my eye - on 1 January, he blanked another user's userpage here. The user, Sellick666 (talk · contribs), has contributions, but has not edited since 1 November 2007, so I'm not clear on what caused this to become an issue. The userpage didn't have a whole lot of worthwhile material on it, and did have profanity, but the edit summary read "blank non-editor's page". MegaMom reverted the change, and Calton reverted twice as vandalism. MegaMom then left a note on the user's talk page apologizing for the incident here, which Calton then removed as "nonsense" here. Again, I don't know if it's blockworthy, but it's certainly unusual and quite possibly uncivil. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 19:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- See also: Everyking (talk) 19:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- While I appericate the above diff being added to this discussion, could we please leave me out of it, as it will get me in much trouble. Thank you...NeutralHomer 22:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Doon't see how it would, he's clearly baiting you into trouble. Big deal. so long as no one finds a diff where you bothered to respond, you're perfectly in the clear. And block Calton for a long time. ThuranX (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that Calton has subsequently blanked that user’s page two more times here and here and placed a warning template on MY talk page entitled “Pointless Stalking” which was removed by another user as “undue harrassment” Please, note that he has referred to my restoration of a user page he BLANKED as belonging to a “non editor” as vandalism (!) That seems pretty uncivil to me. Honestly, I think a lack of civility is only the tip of the iceberg where Calton is concerned and a long block might do him some good. MegaMom (talk) 01:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are nicer ways to deal with people, no matter how difficult.
- Without wishing to comment one way or the other on Calton's actions, it should be noted that the other user who reverted his "Pointless Stalking" on MegaMom's talk page with the comment of "undo harassment" is an IP with a grand total of 5 edits, 4 in the last 24 hours, of which one of those was the reversion in question, a second was a reversion of another of Calton's edits to User talk:Gross1952, and a third was a continuation of the edit war on List of fictional ducks, with El C and Calton on one side and a number of IPs on the other. To my mind that doesn't smack of the actions of a wholly impartial user. Giles Bennett 09:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I understand and respect the fact that Neutralhomer wishes to be left out of this, however, it should be noted that although Calton was last blocked for incivility on November 19, his edit history shows that he only returned to editing December 23. (In other words, he’s been back less than two weeks.) One of his first edits on the day he returned included the following edit summary: “Not your call, Mr. Stalky McStalkerson. Say, didn't you just get in trouble for abusing TWINKLE?" Followed shortly with : “That would be you, Mr. Poor-Impulse-Control. Hey, whatever happened to your pious promise to stop the stalking and blind reversions? Was that taken away, too?” That doesn’t sound to me like someone, who fresh off a block, has learned a lesson or is remorseful for his conduct. MegaMom (talk) 02:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The mere fact that a user's edit history shows no edits before 23 December is not absolute grounds for determining that they have only been back at editing for two weeks since the expiry of their last block. Giles Bennett 09:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I realise that might fly slightly in the face of my comment two paragraphs earlier, as on the surface I'm assuming that the IP editor concerned hasn't made other contributions under a registered username or another IP address, which is entirely possible. I'm pretty certain, however, that Calton wasn't entirely absent between the expiry of his November block and December 23. Giles Bennett 11:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I definitely respect NeutralHomer's wish to stay out of this as well, but I think the fact that Calton knew about NeutralHomer's "Twinkle abuse" is a bit stalker-ish of Calton, not NeutralHomer. jj137 04:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Drive-by tagging
AnteaterZot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been discussed at the village pump before for drive-by tagging. . Initially he was using RS tags to "experiment" to see if he can change wikipedia editor behavior (his words). Now he's moved on to prod and merge tags. His methodology is to simply leave the tag and move on, no discussion on the talk page, etc. The high volume of tagging vs actual editing coupled with the lack of productive edits seems to have moved this into the disruptive behavior category. Drive-by tagging with RS tags is annoying, doing it with prod and merge tags seems to me to be worse. Comments? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 17:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- That looks like awfully pointy behavior to me. — Coren 18:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like? That's pretty much the _definition_ of WP:POINT - wikipedia is not for breaching experiments. —Random832 18:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)Agree, I was going to say that; there are better ways of "changing editor behaviour", consensus being the obvious route. I don't think WP is meant to be a Social Psychology lab. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 18:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wow. I suppose some articles should be merged, some reliable sources needed, and some non-controversial articles PRODDED, and I don't think we should tell him to stop editing like this and make more constructive edits, but tagging all of those articles in such a short time is a bit disruptive. J-ſtanUser page 18:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think it might help if others let him know that they think this behavior needs to be improved. If you're going to tag an article for PROD or merge, it's best to give a reason. The tag itself suggests that a discussion has been left on the talk page. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- My current tagging operation is largely to apply merge-school suggestion tags to elementary and middle schools. The merge tag leads people to the WP:School project, with guidelines on how to merge. In the edit summary and the the tag it says the merge is suggested. As for the Prod tags, I only tag listing-type entries of clearly non-notable schools. I put my reason in the tag. What exactly is wrong with what I am doing? AnteaterZot (talk) 03:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The tags point other editors to the talk page, but I can't see that you ever leave any comments explaining why you put the tags. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 05:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I go into detail here, in the other forum you opened at the same time. In that forum, I responded by saying that the tags themselves are more than clear about what they are asking for, and adding text to a talk page would be redundant. Furthermore, you suggest there that I do research before placing a Prod tag, which is the policy for AfD, not Proposed Deletion. AnteaterZot (talk) 06:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree, the tags are not clear, they're very generic. The give a list of possible problems rather than an actual problem. That can be very daunting for an inexperienced editor such as those often found on school articles. Why not opt on the side of courtesy and cooperation? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 06:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is not true. Even if were true, it is the way the tag is set up: boilerplate text surrounding a place to explain, in bold, what is wrong with the article. The tag itself says, "remove me if you want the article to survive". Have any of my prod tags been inappropriate? AnteaterZot (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, as seen in the Schools discussion. I checked two of your tags today, both were inappropriate. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, they both weren't. I explain why there. Why on Earth did you open two forums at the same time? Why would the Schools WikiProject create the Merge-Schools tag if they didn't want it used to suggest the merger of schools? Why would the Proposed Deletion tag and system be set up the way it is if it wasn't expected that is would "prod" editors into improving the articles? AnteaterZot (talk) 19:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, as seen in the Schools discussion. I checked two of your tags today, both were inappropriate. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is not true. Even if were true, it is the way the tag is set up: boilerplate text surrounding a place to explain, in bold, what is wrong with the article. The tag itself says, "remove me if you want the article to survive". Have any of my prod tags been inappropriate? AnteaterZot (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree, the tags are not clear, they're very generic. The give a list of possible problems rather than an actual problem. That can be very daunting for an inexperienced editor such as those often found on school articles. Why not opt on the side of courtesy and cooperation? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 06:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I go into detail here, in the other forum you opened at the same time. In that forum, I responded by saying that the tags themselves are more than clear about what they are asking for, and adding text to a talk page would be redundant. Furthermore, you suggest there that I do research before placing a Prod tag, which is the policy for AfD, not Proposed Deletion. AnteaterZot (talk) 06:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The tags point other editors to the talk page, but I can't see that you ever leave any comments explaining why you put the tags. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 05:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- My current tagging operation is largely to apply merge-school suggestion tags to elementary and middle schools. The merge tag leads people to the WP:School project, with guidelines on how to merge. In the edit summary and the the tag it says the merge is suggested. As for the Prod tags, I only tag listing-type entries of clearly non-notable schools. I put my reason in the tag. What exactly is wrong with what I am doing? AnteaterZot (talk) 03:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think it might help if others let him know that they think this behavior needs to be improved. If you're going to tag an article for PROD or merge, it's best to give a reason. The tag itself suggests that a discussion has been left on the talk page. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wow. I suppose some articles should be merged, some reliable sources needed, and some non-controversial articles PRODDED, and I don't think we should tell him to stop editing like this and make more constructive edits, but tagging all of those articles in such a short time is a bit disruptive. J-ſtanUser page 18:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- you are using a merge tag saying "merge to the appropriate locality article". You can at least take the trouble to find the appropriate article, or to create it if it doesnt exist. This template should probably go to mfd--a proposed merge has to actually propose something to merge to. I've started a discussion on that at Template talk:Merge-school DGG (talk) 04:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, I was unaware that I could insert the target in the tag. I will do so in the future. AnteaterZot (talk) 04:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
He's definitely trying to make a point AliveFreeHappy (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Which is what? Is my point "these articles should be merged" or "this article seems to be eligible for deletion?" How many of my tags are inappropriate? AnteaterZot (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that there are so many of them that it will take a ton of time for someone to go through them. Not to mention that what you're doing goes against the guidelines at the schools project "Avoid bulk additions. The bulk automated entry of schools is strongly discouraged, as is the bulk adding of schools to the Articles for deletion page. As a general rule of thumb, only add schools that you are willing to do significant research on." AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Due diligence
A general question as well. AnteaterZot seems to be implying above that the due diligence for placing a PROD tag is somehow less than if you use AfD. "you suggest there that I do research before placing a Prod tag, which is the policy for AfD, not Proposed Deletion" WP:DELETE seems to indicate otherwise. I'd be interested to hear what others think of that. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note that AnteaterZot has refused to do due diligence. What are possible remedies to this situation? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I do not see where in WP:DELETE that I am required to do "due diligence" before applying a prod tag to an article like John Read Middle School. Even if the article was deleted, and turned out to have been on a notable school (which is debatable), the article is so short it could be recreated in a minute or two. Why should I have to abide by a rule nobody else does? Furthermore, User:AliveFreeHappy has this same debate running at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Schools, where none of the regular editors have yet to agree with him. He is moving the goalposts, since he started out complaining about merge tags. I have no assurance that the goalposts will not be moved again. AnteaterZot (talk) 18:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP:DELETE says "If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion. " which seems to direct editors to do due diligence. As another example, re sources, it does not list lack of sources as a reason for deletion, rather it says "All attempts to find reliable sources in which article information can be verified have failed", so it's saying we should attempt to find sources before starting a deletion process. Re "moving goalposts" My initial statement here mentions both prod and merge tags - you can read it above. Re "no editors agree" see AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- You are cherry-picking that diff. That editor in supports me as much as he criticizes me. This is why opening two forums at the same time is bad. AnteaterZot (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP:DELETE says "If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion. " which seems to direct editors to do due diligence. As another example, re sources, it does not list lack of sources as a reason for deletion, rather it says "All attempts to find reliable sources in which article information can be verified have failed", so it's saying we should attempt to find sources before starting a deletion process. Re "moving goalposts" My initial statement here mentions both prod and merge tags - you can read it above. Re "no editors agree" see AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I do not see where in WP:DELETE that I am required to do "due diligence" before applying a prod tag to an article like John Read Middle School. Even if the article was deleted, and turned out to have been on a notable school (which is debatable), the article is so short it could be recreated in a minute or two. Why should I have to abide by a rule nobody else does? Furthermore, User:AliveFreeHappy has this same debate running at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Schools, where none of the regular editors have yet to agree with him. He is moving the goalposts, since he started out complaining about merge tags. I have no assurance that the goalposts will not be moved again. AnteaterZot (talk) 18:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)I disagree. I believe that Prod tags, since they can be removed without any comment, and cannot be replaced, are not subject to the same rules as AfD. My edits are in good faith. AnteaterZot (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Prod tags are in some sense MORE dangerous than Afd, since they don't have the same notification going on, and have an almost auto-pilot delete as their conclusion. Using a prod tag is the beginning of a deletion process, and therefore should comply with WP:DELETE, which says at the top "Pages that can be improved should be edited or tagged, not nominated for deletion" - IE perform due diligence. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Is that why you removed an AfD in progress tag? Editing too fast, perhaps? AnteaterZot (talk) 19:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- As for this "dangerous" argument, you act like I'm bulldozing the school. These articles are one sentence long, fer crizzakes. AnteaterZot (talk) 19:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, some of them are, and some of them are not. That's the problem. Hitting the wrong ones causes disruption. All I'm asking is that before you do a prod, take a quite minute to perform some checking and see if it's likely that references exist. If not, prod away. For merges, I think we've solved the issue since you've learned about the proper parameters for the tag. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have Prodded scores of articles, and stand by the majority of them. I may have made mistakes, as did you, by removing an AfD tag. It happens. I'm going to keep prodding short, no-context articles on typically non-notable subjects as I see fit. I will not do due diligence, thanks for baiting me on that. AnteaterZot (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we all make mistakes. That's my point. I have corrected several prods today that you did, simply by doing a quick check of references. Can you explain what your aversion is to fact checking before prodding? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps those schools were notable, but perhaps not. It's the imposition of such a new rule on me and everybody else who uses Prod tags as they were intended that I have an aversion to. AnteaterZot (talk) 20:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we all make mistakes. That's my point. I have corrected several prods today that you did, simply by doing a quick check of references. Can you explain what your aversion is to fact checking before prodding? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have Prodded scores of articles, and stand by the majority of them. I may have made mistakes, as did you, by removing an AfD tag. It happens. I'm going to keep prodding short, no-context articles on typically non-notable subjects as I see fit. I will not do due diligence, thanks for baiting me on that. AnteaterZot (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, some of them are, and some of them are not. That's the problem. Hitting the wrong ones causes disruption. All I'm asking is that before you do a prod, take a quite minute to perform some checking and see if it's likely that references exist. If not, prod away. For merges, I think we've solved the issue since you've learned about the proper parameters for the tag. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- As for this "dangerous" argument, you act like I'm bulldozing the school. These articles are one sentence long, fer crizzakes. AnteaterZot (talk) 19:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Is that why you removed an AfD in progress tag? Editing too fast, perhaps? AnteaterZot (talk) 19:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Prod tags are in some sense MORE dangerous than Afd, since they don't have the same notification going on, and have an almost auto-pilot delete as their conclusion. Using a prod tag is the beginning of a deletion process, and therefore should comply with WP:DELETE, which says at the top "Pages that can be improved should be edited or tagged, not nominated for deletion" - IE perform due diligence. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Fasach Nua
User:Fasach Nua has made a threat to block me and has accused me of vandalism. I am increasingly concerned about the irratic behaviour of Fasnach. This includes removing opinions from talk pages he disagrees with and he has now resorted to blocking threats. Can anybody tell me if he has any authority to do this. I am a respected editor on Wiki, having contributed hundreds of articles. I do not deserve to be treated like this. If anybody should be blocked it should be him and not me. Djln --Djln (talk) 20:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Djln, would it be possible to provide examples of this conduct by way of diff's please, thanks, Regards --Domer48 (talk) 20:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The conduct Djln is referring to happened on Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA), in which Fasach Nua blanked an entire thread without citing a valid reason for doing so. I have left Fasach Nua a message regarding the blanking. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 20:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking into it it looks like User Djln cpoied and pasted an entire threat from talk:Fasach Nua into an article talk page. Fasach removed it Djln edit warred over it and Fasach left a level 4 warning on Djln's talk page. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn't ever call it vandalism but Fasach Nua was rm'ing a very unfriendly and longwinded threat. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted Ioeth's reinsertion, as I'm pretty sure he didn't look into the matter as far back as i did and I'd like to see Djln's explanation for the copy and paste job myself. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hm, I see. Djln, if this is the case I feel I should let you know that the manipulation or movement of other users' talk page messages is generally discouraged. If that thread was initiated on Fasach Nua's talk page, there is no reason to move it en masse to an article talk page. To answer your original quesiton, Fasach Nua is not an administrator, and as such has no power to block any user. However, your edits were improper, so the warning was justified, if a bit harsh. You can of course remove the warning from your talk page, but please remember that this sort of content manipulation is not acceptable. Thanks for fixing that up, Theresa knott! Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 21:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion at Fasach talk page was relevant to the discussion at at Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA). Fasnach is a menace who is trying impose his political opinions on pages about a national football team and football players. Wiki needs to reprimand him about his behaviour which is very negative. His is seriously spoiling my enjoyment of Wiki to the point I am considering quitting it all together. Djln--Djln (talk) 21:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter that the discussion on Fasach's talk page was relevant to the article; altering other users' talk page messages is inappropriate. If you feel that Fasach is acting inappropriately, please seek try to resolve the situation with that user civilly or seek mediation, as it seems that you two are having a disagreement that can likely be resolved; ANI is not the place for it, though. Thanks! Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 22:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Loeth, you have got it completely wrong, I did not alter his talk page in anyway. All I did was transfer a relevant discussion from one talk page to another. How exactly is that inappropriate. Fasnach has only objected because another editor expressed a similar view on his talk page as I did at Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA) and he did not like it. Djln--Djln (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's inappropriate because you moved other users' comments from one talk page to another. The discussion was taking place on Fasach's talk page, and that's where those users left the comments. Moving those comments to another talk page makes it look as though the discussion was taking place there, which it was not. It may not be obvious, but doing that misrepresents those users, which is why copying the thread was inappropriate. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 22:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is you are moving peoples comments from the environent in which they were posted, and in changing context you are possibly changing meaning. I repeatidly invited Padraig to contribute to the Ireland page, and he doesnt want to that is his choice. There is no problem with you copying your own comments between talk pages, but 'only your own comments Fasach Nua (talk) 22:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- User:Fasach Nua, what I have to say is rather trivial since this seems to have been resolved. I think you might have left a disruption warning for Djln instead of a vandalism warning. Clearly Djln should not copied these comments from your talk page, much less without at least mentioning the source in the edit summary. I still don't get how Djln thought this would be helpful, but it wasn't vandalism even though I understand how it felt like that to you. The pith being, calling this vandalism might have distracted others from digging into what was going on (which is to say, since the edit wasn't vandalism, Ioeth restored it without looking further). Happily, Theresa Knott had the patience and care to do this and found it was an unhelpful and misleading copy-paste of comments from a user's talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- You are right a disruption warning would have been more appropriate, and a vandal template was just laziness on my part. I never thought it was vandalism, but I did think it wasn't far off it (especially as the user had done it for a second time). The warning was given on my part to signify to the user that a line had been crossed in terms of reasonable behaviour, I have since removed the warning. Fasach Nua (talk) 12:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- User:Fasach Nua, what I have to say is rather trivial since this seems to have been resolved. I think you might have left a disruption warning for Djln instead of a vandalism warning. Clearly Djln should not copied these comments from your talk page, much less without at least mentioning the source in the edit summary. I still don't get how Djln thought this would be helpful, but it wasn't vandalism even though I understand how it felt like that to you. The pith being, calling this vandalism might have distracted others from digging into what was going on (which is to say, since the edit wasn't vandalism, Ioeth restored it without looking further). Happily, Theresa Knott had the patience and care to do this and found it was an unhelpful and misleading copy-paste of comments from a user's talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is you are moving peoples comments from the environent in which they were posted, and in changing context you are possibly changing meaning. I repeatidly invited Padraig to contribute to the Ireland page, and he doesnt want to that is his choice. There is no problem with you copying your own comments between talk pages, but 'only your own comments Fasach Nua (talk) 22:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Fasnach, you telling me I have crossed the line, just makes me laugh. Your behaviour over the past month is beyond belief and a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. You behave like you own the place. I also smiled at the fact you admitted you are lazy. I can tell by your research that this is true. Djln —Preceding comment was added at 22:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Let's not Bite each other. And we are not Buzzkilling anyone. Just miscommunication and inapporpriate Netiquettes at worse. Shake hand and make up..:) Igor Berger (talk) 00:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Misza13 (talk · contribs)
Pardon my French, but what the hell is going on here? All I saw was East718 (talk · contribs) placing username and indef-block templates on those pages and blocking him. However, he unblocked himself a moment later. Could we find out what exactly is going on? -Jéské 22:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know. A couple of us have already left a note at East718's talk page asking for an explanation of the block. Metros (talk) 22:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, what's that about? Is it because 13's an unlucky number? :) Kidding. Probably just a slip of the mouse. J-ſtanUser page 22:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Apparently something to do with user error on a report in IRC (blocked reporter rather than subject of report), but awaiting clarification from East718 himself. AGF on fumble-fingers for now, I assume... 8-) Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Who wants to bet me that it has to do with this? Time is identical to the block time. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I guess others already figured this out on East's talk page. Thought I was so clever... —Wknight94 (talk) 22:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Who wants to bet me that it has to do with this? Time is identical to the block time. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Apparently something to do with user error on a report in IRC (blocked reporter rather than subject of report), but awaiting clarification from East718 himself. AGF on fumble-fingers for now, I assume... 8-) Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, what's that about? Is it because 13's an unlucky number? :) Kidding. Probably just a slip of the mouse. J-ſtanUser page 22:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Posted my suspicions on East718's talk page; can't wait to see if they were correct. Миша13 23:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, and I'm male, btw. :) Миша13 23:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies, chummer. -Jéské 23:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know admins could unblock themselves. Odd how he happened to have been experimenting on that before the block. --Thinboy00 @210, i.e. 04:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- They can, but it's considered very poor form to do so. -Jéské 04:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- First of all, mea culpa... this is the first time in more than two months that I've made a mistake of this nature... and second, Misza13 is the smartest person in the room. east.718 at 04:13, January 4, 2008
Special purpose Twin Paradox account TwPx
This user TwPx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been trying to insert what amounts to an unsourced originally researched essay (, , )into the Twin paradox (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article.
See also , , , , . Can something be done about this whithout risking a WP:3RR offence? Cheers, DVdm (talk) 22:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'll place a test1 warning on the user's talk page. Bearian (talk) 23:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. - I love your cat :-), DVdm (talk) 09:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- TwPx is at it again. Left warning on talk page. 5th removal. DVdm (talk) 17:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- TwPx now used his IP-address to re-insert the essay. See evidence (and this) for fact that TwPx = 67.189.222.137. Essay was reverted (6th time) by User:Lumpy27. Looks like refusal to conform to Misplaced Pages policies (and perhaps even disruption). DVdm (talk) 21:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- TwPx (aka 67.189.222.137) inserted essay for the 7th time. Can this be somehow stopped? TIA, DVdm (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Hezbollah userbox
File:Flag of Hezbollah.svg | This user supports armed resistance against Israeli aggression. |
This userbox was featured until recently on Noor Aalam (talk · contribs)'s user page. I removed it because Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and WP:UP prohibits userpage content that is likely to give widespread offense, as enforced in various recent arbitration committee rulings. Noor Aalam disagrees and considers the box not to be offensive (see the discussion at User talk:Noor Aalam#Offensive userbox removed). Before I apply any sanctions to prevent the repeated readdition of this box, I would appreciate input by other administrators and experienced users about the appropriateness of this userbox. I'll be offline for nine hours or so following this post. Thanks, Sandstein (talk) 23:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- That userbox is too inappropriate, offensive, and controversial. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 23:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- The userbox advocates "armed resistance", which in itself seems too provocative for Misplaced Pages. Linking the term to an organization which is deemed terrorist seems to imply the user advocates terrorism. I support the removal of the userbox. Jeffpw (talk) 23:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
As i stated on the tk pg, i am willing to change it to "This user supports Hezbollah" and remove the rest. Noor Aalam (talk) 23:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ugh, that userbox is a perenial problem. That version is toned down - agression used to wikilink to massacres - but still in my opinion, divisive and soapboxing. Viridae 23:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the box to
File:Flag of Hezbollah.svg | This user supports Hezbollah. |
Noor Aalam (talk) 23:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly have no desire to restart The Userbox Wars — but how is this any worse than at least 50% of the entries here, all of which are on a relatively prominent gallery, and about which nobody seems to have objected? Or this fine piece of T1 material, which is transcluded on over 50 user pages? — iridescent 23:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- For starters, I don't see any userboxes there linking to terrorist organizations. That makes a difference to me. Also, it seems prudent to confine the discussion to this one box, instead of widening it to an elaborate debate of boxes in general. Jeffpw (talk) 00:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- (EC) I've nominated the Dead Marxists userbox for deletion. How are some of these allowed. "This user believes Vince Foster did not commit suicide, but was instead murdered to prevent him revealing information about Whitewater." What is the point of this? Lawrence Cohen 00:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Six countries view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, which means that the majority of the world doesnt. Bias should be avoided. Noor Aalam (talk) 00:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Let's put it this way: How does having this userbox on your user page promote building the encyclopedia? If we can't come up with a good answer to that (and not just in reference to this particular userbox - I'm not trying to target Noor Aalam personally), then that's a pretty good indication that we've got something superfluous on our hands. I'm not interested in wandering into userbox wars either, but if having one causes disruption for more than a few editors, then there's rarely a good reason to keep it. Tijuana Brass (talk) 00:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- We are coming across several userbox issues lately, and this makes me wonder, should we actually try to establish a guideline for the userboxes themselves? I know WP:USER covers it nicely, but maybe a very direct set of content instructions can prove useful for new users. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is another userbox on Noor Aalam's page that should be assessed as well—the one that advocates the vandalism of the George W. Bush page. Disagreeing (even vociferously) with a politician is fine, but advocating the vandalism of a wikipedia page is not acceptable. Horologium (talk) 03:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Let's put it this way: How does having this userbox on your user page promote building the encyclopedia? If we can't come up with a good answer to that (and not just in reference to this particular userbox - I'm not trying to target Noor Aalam personally), then that's a pretty good indication that we've got something superfluous on our hands. I'm not interested in wandering into userbox wars either, but if having one causes disruption for more than a few editors, then there's rarely a good reason to keep it. Tijuana Brass (talk) 00:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly have no desire to restart The Userbox Wars — but how is this any worse than at least 50% of the entries here, all of which are on a relatively prominent gallery, and about which nobody seems to have objected? Or this fine piece of T1 material, which is transcluded on over 50 user pages? — iridescent 23:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Also an unacceptable userbox. I have removed both. Regarding the Hezbollah box, we have been through this a number of times before. See the next subsection. -- Avi (talk) 03:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Any userbox advocating vandalism is wrong, and should be removed. Supporting Hezbollah is another matter. Some people say they support Israel (which was responsible for many civilian deaths during the Israel-Lebanon conflict), so why is it incorrect to support Hezbollah?Bless sins (talk) 03:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- BlessSins, please realize: a userbox saying "I support armed aggression against Israel", is no different than one saying "I support XyZ Holy city being bombed". --Matt57 04:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The userbox says "resistance," not "aggression," so your comparison is totally irrelevant. <eleland/talkedits> 04:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- BlessSins, please realize: a userbox saying "I support armed aggression against Israel", is no different than one saying "I support XyZ Holy city being bombed". --Matt57 04:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Any userbox advocating vandalism is wrong, and should be removed. Supporting Hezbollah is another matter. Some people say they support Israel (which was responsible for many civilian deaths during the Israel-Lebanon conflict), so why is it incorrect to support Hezbollah?Bless sins (talk) 03:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) See below; it has been deleted three times as divisive and inflammatory. There is nothing that the wikipedia project gains from that userbox, and a lot that it loses. Misplaced Pages is not myspace. By all means, anyone may have userboxes supporting any cause, party, ideal, charity, mass murderer, or local bakery that they please, but not on wikipedia. -- Avi (talk) 03:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is simple nonsense, Avraham. CSD T1 applies only to pages in Template: space, per Misplaced Pages:Userbox migration. I realize that you are outraged by the claim that Hezbollah (in addition to whatever else it may do) resists Israeli aggression, but your outrage does not hold sway over the Misplaced Pages. I and other editors I know regularly come upon outrageous statements in userspace and talk space, but we do not seek to censor and/or block those who make them.
- As I'm sure you know, there are about a gazillion userboxes which support political parties, political positions, ideals, charities, and perhaps even local bakeries. If you feel this is a problem, fine, but don't address it by removing content which you personally disagree with in the guise of enforcing WP:SOAPBOX. <eleland/talkedits> 04:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Eleland, the fact that the template was substituted, instead of transcluded, just means that it was missed when the template was deleted. That userbox was deemed inappropriate for wikipedia -- Avi (talk) 04:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are similar user boxes, from which "there is nothing that the wikipedia project gains". Example would be a userbox supporting Likud, a party which doesn't want the Palestinians to have their own state, thereby denying them the right to self-determination.Bless sins (talk) 04:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Eleland, the fact that the template was substituted, instead of transcluded, just means that it was missed when the template was deleted. That userbox was deemed inappropriate for wikipedia -- Avi (talk) 04:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that a Template: page was speedily deleted does not, and cannot, mean that similar content was thus forbidden from userpages. A policy which would forbid the simple statement "This user supports Hezbollah resistance against Israeli aggression" from userpages would require a lot more discussion than a unilateral procedural deletion under CSD T1. <eleland/talkedits> 04:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Stop being so nitpicky with the rules and recall that they serve a purpose. Circumventing that purpose with a subst does not negate the fact that the material (clearly) can be reasonably considered to be offensive or inflammatory. The userpage policy prohibits such content on userpages, and it doesn't matter that he went the extra six characters and two clicks. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at Noor's userpage, I would have to add the "This user wishes to test the limits of userboxes" userbox. The first version above IMO is clearly unacceptable, the second somewhat less bad, but still showing blanket support for an organization which advocates unacceptable use of violence to achieve political ends. How about a userbox with the Hezbollah symbol and a message supporting peace? That would put it on a par with that horrible box suggesting DVD's shouldn't have region codes, a clear attempt to destroy the Western economic order. Unless the laws of the server location clearly state that any mention of Hezbollah is prohibited, the userbox in question is just political advocacy like many others, providing it disavows the advocacy of violence. Franamax (talk) 05:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I did not know I was attempting to "destroy the Western economic order". Should i remove that as well? Noor Aalam (talk) 05:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, all political advocacy userboxes are contrary to the spirit of Misplaced Pages. The only use they have is giving a clue about which editors are here to soapbox. --Folantin (talk) 12:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
See {{User Hezbollah}}
This is just a substituted version of a template that was deemed inflammatory and deleted three separate times as a WP:CSD#T1. The fact that this user substituted it is irrelevant. I have deleted it from his page. -- Avi (talk) 03:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The substituted userbox was also found on User:Yahussain (Supplied by User:Embargo here) and User:Aisha uk. -- Avi (talk) 03:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Further action
Thanks to all of you for your comments. Consensus appears to be that userboxes expressing support for Hezbollah are divisive and inflammatory, especially substituted copies of the multiply-deleted {{User Hezbollah}}. I will remove such boxes from userspace and enforce the removal with protections and/or blocks if required. Sandstein (talk) 08:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- What about boxes such as these? You are forgetting that divisiveness can be caused not just by Arab groups, but Israeli ones as well.Bless sins (talk) 08:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Since this is a template in user space, you are free to open a deletion discussion about it. In my opinion, all political or ideological userboxes should be deprecated, but our current consensus only supports the removal of those that are considered too inflammatory. This includes support for Hezbollah, which is widely recognised as a terrorist group, but not for Likud, which is a mainstream political party. (It may be worth noting that I am Swiss, do not adhere to any religion and do not consider myself to have any personal stake whatsoever in the Arab-Israeli conflict.) Sandstein (talk) 09:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hezbollah is also a mainstream political party. It is part of a coalition that holds 35/128 seats in the Lebanese parliament.Bless sins (talk) 10:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hezbollah is a terrorist group which intentionally kills civilians to further its own goals. The Likud may be evil capitalists and anti-concessions, but I don't believe they have a militia which goes around murdering people. However, if you see a userbox supporting Kach, then by all means please bring it here for deletion. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- They don't need a paramilitary group. They have the Israeli Army. I think all non-encyclopedic userboxes should be deleted whenever they cause disruption, per WP:NOT. Jehochman 17:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hezbollah is a terrorist group which intentionally kills civilians to further its own goals. The Likud may be evil capitalists and anti-concessions, but I don't believe they have a militia which goes around murdering people. However, if you see a userbox supporting Kach, then by all means please bring it here for deletion. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hezbollah is also a mainstream political party. It is part of a coalition that holds 35/128 seats in the Lebanese parliament.Bless sins (talk) 10:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Since this is a template in user space, you are free to open a deletion discussion about it. In my opinion, all political or ideological userboxes should be deprecated, but our current consensus only supports the removal of those that are considered too inflammatory. This includes support for Hezbollah, which is widely recognised as a terrorist group, but not for Likud, which is a mainstream political party. (It may be worth noting that I am Swiss, do not adhere to any religion and do not consider myself to have any personal stake whatsoever in the Arab-Israeli conflict.) Sandstein (talk) 09:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Excessive block
User:Noor Aalam was just blocked for 24 hours. The block was regarding his edit to User:Avraham's page. Edit another user's page (without their permission) is inappropriate. However, User:Noor Alam did not place anything offensive. The edit was basically a removal of userboxes. Nevertheless, User:Noor Alam realized his mistake and immediately self-reverted within one minute. I don't see how any harm has possibly been caused.
I know that editing a userpage without permission is inappropriate. However, a 24 hour block (usually given in cases of editwarring and 3rr) is too excessive. Please also consider the fact that the user immediately self-reverted their edits.Bless sins (talk) 08:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Userboxes are more trouble then they are worth. They really are. Why do we have them at all? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 12:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- My thoughts exactly (regarding the advocacy userboxes at least). --Folantin (talk) 12:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's funny this came up because I recently found this the users main goal on here seems to collecting user boxes, barnstars and playing some kind of find a hidden page game. While I don't think there is anything that can or should be done about it, I think it's a small sign of things heading in the wrong direction. Ridernyc (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- His page is kind of cool 'tho, IMHO. Looks like he has been around for awhile, also - best not to template the regulars, as you did on his talkpage. 17:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's funny this came up because I recently found this the users main goal on here seems to collecting user boxes, barnstars and playing some kind of find a hidden page game. While I don't think there is anything that can or should be done about it, I think it's a small sign of things heading in the wrong direction. Ridernyc (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Note
? | This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is afraid to name particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable. |
Hello. I am one of the users who had the first userbox ("supports armed resistance"). I had never actually placed political opinions on my userpage, unless you count "supports the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation," until I noticed that other users were being threatened by administrators for placing the Hezbollah userbox.
This enforcement of political correctness is worse than the problem it attempts to solve, and is inherently impossible to enforce in an unbiased manner. Opinion polls have shown that internationally, George W. Bush and the United States are regarded as at least as threatening to the world as Hassan Nasrallah or Hezbollah. Even in my own country of Canada, hardly an outpost of ignorance and extremism, Bush and Nasrallah are regarded as roughly equivalent threats. However, due to Misplaced Pages's systemic political and cultural biases, only support for the latter will ever be targeted as "likely to give widespread offense."
Furthermore, the process by which this decision has been made is in no way suitable for determining Misplaced Pages consensus. Previously the template version of this userbox was deleted under a criterion which only applies to userboxes in the template namespace, and which is related to the Userbox migration effort, which intends that "All controversial and divisive userboxes, including those currently in Misplaced Pages:Userboxes will be migrated out of template space into userspace or an appropriate subpage, such as a corresponding WikiProject." Note migrated, not deleted. Editors are now citing these procedural deletions as proof positive of a consensus against including statements of support for Hezbollah resistance. Whether or not such a consensus exists has not been determined, and the previous procedural deletions have, in themselves, no value in determining what consensus, if any, there is. Nonetheless, some administrators believe they are justified in removing the userbox, and in threatening and blocking those who restore it.
As a result, I am placing the userbox shown here on my user page. I trust that a civil and honest expression of dissatisfaction with a decision made by administrators cannot reasonably be taken as some form of disruption, and will not lead to threats being directed against my continued participation in this project. <eleland/talkedits> 17:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- A case can be made that these edits are a violation of WP:POINT. -- Avi (talk) 17:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Not to mention that supporting violent resistance to anything is completely inappropriate for wikipedia. -- Avi (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Right, so users who express support for, say, the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, on the basis that it is armed self-defense, will be censured? <eleland/talkedits> 18:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Probably. Incerdently could you can it with that PC rubbish about "armed resistance"? Either call for genocide or stop messing around.Geni 18:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Right, so users who express support for, say, the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, on the basis that it is armed self-defense, will be censured? <eleland/talkedits> 18:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Woah, woah, woah, woah, WOAH. Who said anything about genocide?! I support Hezbollah in its defense of Lebanese territory. Genocide, terrorism, or even attacks on military targets outside South Lebanon have nothing to do with it. <eleland/talkedits> 19:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oh please that silly PC line about legit targets and all that? If britian had thought like that it would probably have lost the Second Boer War. If you are not prepared to advocate genocide it is probably best you go back to your hippy friends and talk about peace. Psudo hawkishness is mearly anoying.Geni 01:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Woah, woah, woah, woah, WOAH. Who said anything about genocide?! I support Hezbollah in its defense of Lebanese territory. Genocide, terrorism, or even attacks on military targets outside South Lebanon have nothing to do with it. <eleland/talkedits> 19:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Per Avi's objection to anything violent. So if some is proud to be part of the Israeli army (which has killed many innocent civilians), they should be censured. Should this apply to all armies, as military men (soldiers etc.) are trained to be violent.Bless sins (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- BlessSins, I hope you're not siding with this user because you have the same relgiion as theirs. Do you agree that its not ok to have this userbox? "This user supports armed resistance against Israeli aggression." This line is identical to "This user supports bombing of such and such cities", which I'm sure you would not agree with. --Matt57 21:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Unless BlessSins has experienced a de-epiphany and converted to atheism, that is not the case. <eleland/talkedits> 21:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- And no, "supports armed resistance" means "supports armed resistance," not "supports every action carried out under the banner of armed resistance," rendering your second point equally moot. <eleland/talkedits> 21:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- BlessSins, I hope you're not siding with this user because you have the same relgiion as theirs. Do you agree that its not ok to have this userbox? "This user supports armed resistance against Israeli aggression." This line is identical to "This user supports bombing of such and such cities", which I'm sure you would not agree with. --Matt57 21:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Encyclopedic purpose
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these sorts of userboxes do serve an encyclopedic purpose. Whether it's this one, or the Dead Marxist userbox, or the Hillary-Clinton-killed-Vince-Foster userbox, they identify editors whose dedication to a deeply controversial cause is so deep that they are extremely unlikely to be able to edit Misplaced Pages neutrally, collaboratively, and civilly in the long run, and are much more likely here to be part of a battlefield rather than an encyclopedia. It can take weeks or months to identify such editors (to say nothing of how long it takes to handle them). These userboxes do it instantly. That's a service to the encyclopedia, no? MastCell 20:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- LOL. Sadly to say, you actually have a point. -- Avi (talk) 21:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- eleland put this userbox on his/her userpage. Yet he/she has been a valuable contributor. This is probably true for users who put userboxes supporting Likud.Bless sins (talk) 21:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Repeated vandalism on Endowment (Latter Day Saints)
- restoring past discussion for contextKww (talk) 00:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The LDS have a tradition of silence about certain of their traditions. This has led to trouble on a few articles, notably Endowment (Latter Day Saints) and Temple garments, where LDS editors will attempt to strike large sections of text and images on religious grounds. Usually, they give up after a few patient explanations that we don't censor Misplaced Pages to match any religious groups tastes. One particularly persistent anonymous editor showed up on Nov. 13, 2007, alternately using IP address 12.159.66.24 and 68.4.107.116 (its a home and a work account for the same user, as stated on the talk page. This editor claims that it is "excessively detailed", but the section he strikes is exactly the same section stricken as "too sacred" by previous LDS members. I've explained it to him. I've enlisted the help of User:Storm Rider, a long term LDS member. He has explained it to him, and recognised, as I did, that the issue was the "sacredness" of the material, not the detail. Ultimately, Endowment (Latter Day Saints) was semi-protected to put a stop to it. After that, User:Brock Soaring pops up, a single purpose account that makes that edit, and only that edit, repeatedly. The tone and style of his comments make it clear he is the same anonymous editor. Protecting the article doesn't seem to be the answer: blocking Brock Soaring probably is.Kww (talk) 00:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, at least this user is contributing with the same account now ;). In any case, you're right, this is a single purpose account, and he has been chided by other users, including LDS members, to no avail, and continues to edit war. Will an administrator give this user a short block for edit warring and incivility? The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've added a level four warning to his talk page, but since this has been added to the AN/I, he has not edited. I'll watch the article (which I did in the past for months); if he chooses to ignore the latest round of advice, it will likely result in a block. Tijuana Brass (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- He only shows up every few days ... one of the behaviour patterns he shares with the anonymous IPs that were making the same edits before. I could take care of it for a long time without hitting 3RR, but I don't want to risk looking like I'm in a slow edit war.Kww (talk) 04:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've added a level four warning to his talk page, but since this has been added to the AN/I, he has not edited. I'll watch the article (which I did in the past for months); if he chooses to ignore the latest round of advice, it will likely result in a block. Tijuana Brass (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- Brock came back today, in the guise of the anonymous IP he used before (12.159.66.24), and deleted the exact same text, despite having received a level 4 warning. Can we please just block all three and be done with it?Kww (talk) 00:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Sigh. Given that this user has a history of persistent, long term disruption, both at the Endowment article and elsewhere (i.e. WP:OWN of RealGM), I'm going to do block all three accounts. The IP pages will have {{anonblock}} added in case there are legit users who get caught up in it. If other admins want to revise this solution, that's fine, but make sure to look through the three contribution histories first to check the extent of the problem. Tijuana Brass (talk) 00:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Nostradamus1
Nostradamus1 (talk · contribs) is, despite my repeated attempts to direct him to the guidelines in WP:CAT that indicates that generally, an article should not belong to both a parent category and a subcategory, misstating the situation and making improper claims about my edits. (See Talk:Qilibi Khan.) I'd like for someone else to review the situation and to warn/block him/her as you see fit. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 00:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds like a content dispute, which does not belong here. Also, see the Blocking Policy, and note that the user hasn't done anything to warrant a block. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I see his latest edits as personal attacks. --Nlu (talk) 06:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Could you be more specific on which edits?--Crossmr (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I see his latest edits as personal attacks. --Nlu (talk) 06:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User:R. fiend using his admin privileges questionably
Resolved – an RfC/U has now been filed here - Alison 02:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Nothing more to be said here and it is in danger of dredging up further editing history of this user - it's been agreed to take it to RfC, so either someone initiates that or the matter is dropped. violet/riga (t) 09:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is protected yet User:R. fiend is using his admin privilages to continue editing he has been warned before about doing this when he is involved in a content dispute on the article. This is not the first time he has done this and has done on other articles as well, and been warned before for doing so.--Padraig (talk) 00:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The user R. fiends was involved in some edit warring (on the same article) back at the end of December. I don't think it is acceptable for admins to edit a page freely, if it is fully protected, unless they visit the talk page and reach consensus for changes they wish to make; just like the rest of us. Also, User:R. fiend has been notified of this discussion. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
R. fiend definitely is an involved user, if the edit at 21:38, 19 December 2007 and his edit summary of "restoring FASCIST CENSORSHIP or REFERENCED MATERIAL. This has a FOOTNOTE. Therefore it CANNIT be removed or altered by ANYONE, ever. To do so would be ORIGINAL RESEARCH!!!!111!!11oneone1!!!" is any indication. He shouldn't be acting as an admin here at all and should revert himself back. Lawrence Cohen 00:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wow is right. Somehow I didn't even notice that. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to hear R. Fiend's side of the story here as well before coming to any conclusions. 1 != 2 00:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hopefully, it was an error. Admin priviledges shouldn't be used here. Lawrence Cohen 00:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to hear R. Fiend's side of the story here as well before coming to any conclusions. 1 != 2 00:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Can everyone please bear in mind that the article was actually broken in the protected state and that no one (including Pádraig) objected to a message in the talk section by an uninvolved editor that it needed fixing whatever. Aatomic1 (talk) 00:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I didn't see the comment on the talk page your refering, care to provide a link to the dif. --Padraig (talk) 01:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I bear some culpability here for making this edit requesting what I assumed (wrongly, it now turns out) would be an uncontroversial edit (primarily involving a spelling mistake and a breach of WP:MOS guidance as to piping external links in inline text citations).
- Nobody, including Padraig, bothered to reply and User:R. fiend might justifiably have assumed that my title of "Uncontroversial (?) copyedit while page is protected" might have been accurate. Sorry for that!
- Thanks are due to Rjd0060 for raising an alert on User Talk:R. fiend that his conduct is being discussed here and I apologise that I only notice this when editing the "Unblock of Callmebc" section above or I would have set the record straight earlier. Alice 08:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I didn't see the comment on the talk page your refering, care to provide a link to the dif. --Padraig (talk) 01:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- It was a totally trivial edit, but it still ought to have been done by another admin, so as to not enflame a situation by someone on one side of a dispute doing it. Lawrence Cohen 00:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- (2 edit conflicts) What?...Errrr, if changes "needed" to be made, they should have been discussed first. Thats why the big template says "Protection is not an endorsement of the current version". I agree though, maybe it was just an error. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:58, 4 January 20
It was just a minor edit, totally harmless. John Reaves 00:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)It was a trivial edit (thanks, Lawrence, I was looking for the right word to use), and it was requested at Talk:Easter Rising#Uncontroversial (?) copyedit while page is protected. R.fiend made a less controversial edit than what was requested there by leaving in that the historian was noted. I don't see a problem with this edit. WODUP 01:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- If anything, R. fiend should be commended for making the edit to make the article more presentable in the short term, and leaving in the content that xe disputed because the page is protected and the issue is being discussed. WODUP 01:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I would second both that factual analysis and your opinion, WODUP. Alice 08:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- If anything, R. fiend should be commended for making the edit to make the article more presentable in the short term, and leaving in the content that xe disputed because the page is protected and the issue is being discussed. WODUP 01:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- (ec)It was a trivial edit (thanks, Lawrence, I was looking for the right word to use), and it was requested at Talk:Easter Rising#Uncontroversial (?) copyedit while page is protected. R.fiend made a less controversial edit than what was requested there by leaving in that the historian was noted. I don't see a problem with this edit. WODUP 01:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I got R. Fiend's response to this. 1 != 2 01:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ugh..- Rjd0060 (talk) 01:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Precisely !! - You you all want to be useful please consider Domer's spamming of the talk pages on that articleAatomic1 (talk) 01:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Aatomic this has nothing to do with Domers request for sources in this dispute, because you have had disputes before with Domer don't try and bring that dispute into this.--Padraig (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The edit summary and reaction to the AN/I thread are inappropriate for an administrator. Even if the edit was discussed between some editors, it was also (clearly) disputed by at least one and there is no reason not to have used the editprotected template for it. These issues keep coming back to AN/I, and its because folks keep thinking that if they think an edit is no big deal, they can make it through protection even if they are involved. 02:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Are there any admins prepared to act on this obvious abuse of editing tools? DuncanHill (talk) 02:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Does anyone disagree with having someone remove the text from those embedded links? Please forgive me if I'm a little dense right now, but this doesn't seem to me to be an obvious abuse of editing tools. The only issue that I can see is that R. fiend edited a page on which xe had a dispute while it was protected. That's really where the problem ends because xe didn't edit anything with regard to the dispute. Xe fixed two embedded links that displayed text and corrected a typo. WODUP 02:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Correct. R. fiend's edit was appropriate, moderate and correct - the only problem was that he did not aks another admin to make the edit. I am at fault for not using a template to request an uninvolved admin to make the technical edit to a protected page. Alice 08:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- FYI - R. fiend is a "he". 02:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was about to ask who this User:xe was. DuncanHill (talk) 02:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- FYI - R. fiend is a "he". 02:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- And yes, I see an issue. He is an involved editor on a protected page, and made an edit himself using his status as an admin. He put in a wildly inappropriate edit summary, and then ignored the AN/I thread as an 'inanity.' So, problem piles atop problem and the mole hill of the edit in normal circumstances becomes a problem warranting an AN/I thread and criticism of R. fiends judgment in this case. 02:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- In my opinion, he really shouldn't have made that edit; he was involved in the article and just used his administrative rights to edit. It wouldn't have been a big deal if he had at least discussed it on the talk page before just going and making the edit. Seriously, I think we should have protection levels such as or . That way maybe we can avoid problems like this. jj137 02:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- And yes, I see an issue. He is an involved editor on a protected page, and made an edit himself using his status as an admin. He put in a wildly inappropriate edit summary, and then ignored the AN/I thread as an 'inanity.' So, problem piles atop problem and the mole hill of the edit in normal circumstances becomes a problem warranting an AN/I thread and criticism of R. fiends judgment in this case. 02:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The guy certainly seems to have a bit of an issue regarding civility, judging from his talk page. Admin or no, editors should treat each other (and the community) with a little more respect than that. The guy's been here long enough now without the need to have WP:CIVIL spelled out for him - Alison 02:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that WP:CIVIL didn't apply to admins. DuncanHill (talk) 02:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ah. My mistake, sorry. Carry on ... - Alison 02:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- There was also the matter of this controversial revert war on a similar article, Kevin Barry, which resulted in R. fiend reverting to his version and immediately fully protecting the article. As I recall, this went to ANI and another admin stepped in to review and ultimately unprotect the page - Alison 02:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Alison I knew had used his admin rights before whilst involved in edit disputes.--Padraig (talk) 03:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that WP:CIVIL didn't apply to admins. DuncanHill (talk) 02:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The guy certainly seems to have a bit of an issue regarding civility, judging from his talk page. Admin or no, editors should treat each other (and the community) with a little more respect than that. The guy's been here long enough now without the need to have WP:CIVIL spelled out for him - Alison 02:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- As far as Duncan's question: Is an admin going to do something? I don't know that there is anything to be done. Unprotect the article, possibly? Revert the edit? Its an invitation to wheel war. The method of review for administrator actions if an admin refuses to participate in good faith is ArbCom. Perhaps an RfC would be a better first step, but it doesn't require an admin. 03:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Especially since now it looks like R. fiend is refusing to discuss his actions, I think it's time for a RfC (my choice) or ArbCom. I would think ArbCom would want an RfC first, but the fact that R. fiend is refusing to discuss such "inanities" as possible misuse of his administrator rights probably would satisfy the "Attempt to resolve dispute beforehand", especially since we have been here before! SirFozzie (talk) 03:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think as well it may be time for an RfC. This guy is refusing to comment on his discussions, and I think referring to this as "inanities" is simply unacceptable. jj137 03:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is, indeed, a questionable use of admin powers. I will certify such an RfC if it starts; but I'm definitely not in favor of bringing this to the AC unless that has been attempted. — Coren 03:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm certainly ready to get involved in an RfC regarding this administrator. It's this kind of behaviour that gives us all a bad name - Alison 05:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is, indeed, a questionable use of admin powers. I will certify such an RfC if it starts; but I'm definitely not in favor of bringing this to the AC unless that has been attempted. — Coren 03:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- You're right, Alison; this is why people have problems with admins. I think an RFC is the best way to go from here, and I'll be there. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah, but it is inane, very much so. Someone pointed out a typo and an improperly formatted inline citation (please, if there is a word "sprit" that is not preceded by "bow" or suffixed by "sail" or an historian named "RTEPrincess Grace Irish Library (Monaco) Eoin Neeson" do let me know). No one objected to fixing them (for very obvious reasons), but (surprise surprise) no one actually fixed them either. So I did. And, as one of Misplaced Pages's sensible editors, WODUP, pointed out, I did not change the contentious part (though I would certainly be in favor of that edit). Sure, I could have gone around to a bunch of talk pages and tried to get someone else to do it, but, really, why bother? I could do something myself in 3 seconds or spend minutes trying to get someone else to do it for me. As for my edit summary, which someone had an issue with, well, it was done automatically so if you have an issue, it's with the software. And now people are wasting a hell of a lot of time discussing two of the most trivial edits ever made. Did someone say a potential course of action would be to revert the edits, reinserting a typo? I'm sorry if it strikes people as incivil, but that's inane, if not downright stupid, and the very worst from of wikilawyering. Oh, and making the edit myself had another advantage, it let me know whether people were interesting in correcting mistakes in an article or whining. I guess I got my answer. -R. fiend (talk) 03:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The edit summary we were referring to was not that one, but this. jj137 03:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the edits were rather minor, but the point was that you were involved in the article and edited it while it was full protected for edit warring (using your admin rights to do so). Any regular user wouldn't have been able to do that. jj137 03:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Y'know, you're being rude, arrogant and dismissive all over again here, just like earlier. This isn't about fixing typos, it's about your repeated misuse of your admin tools on articles with which you are in dispute. When told this was on ANI, you brush it off with a smart comment. Only when people start making RfC noises, do you bother to even show up here, thus showing huge disrespect for the community. I saw the Kevin Barry stuff going down last month, but I kinda let it slide - see this thread in my talk page archives for all the details. Now, I'm not so sure. I do know this; It's exactly this kind of attitude that other editors so often complain about when it comes to admins. And this looks like an exemplary case. If this happens to go to RfC, I'll certainly weigh in on the matter - Alison 04:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- And not only that, there was yet another example of this behaviour from last July in which you shut out an anon editor from yet another "Troubles" article (I'm beginning to see a common theme here) in which you were editing. I only discovered this on my WP:RPP patrolling. Rather than undo your prot, I brought it to your talk page first & as did another RPP admin at the time.
One of your revert comments, "revert deletions by anon editor - have the deceny to get an account and identify yourself", speaks volumes, I feel.That's three times in a short period - Alison 04:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Do your homework. That comment wasn't even from me. -R. fiend (talk) 04:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies - you're right and I've struck that comment. However, the protect; as the log shows, User:Steel359 ended up reverting the protect with "Inappropriate use of semi-protection" as you chose to ignore both our questions on your talk page. Steel commented at the time, " it would still be inappropriate for you to protect it yourself given you are in that dispute". Care to discuss this now, seeing as you have an established, regular habit of misusing your admin tools on articles you're in a dispute on? - Alison 05:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Honestly? Not really, as I don't remember the details and don't have the desire to go back reading old diffs, but I sort of recall this basic scenario: an anon with an axe to grind who has clearly not read the talk page or looked over the article history decides unilaterally to make a bunch of edits of the sort that have been gone over a whole bunch of times before, probably about how there's no way Pearse could have possibly been gay therefore even addressing it in the article (even if only to largely dismiss it) is the most horrible thing ever. A mini-edit war ensues and I semi-protect the article to put a stop to consistent reversions and force the anon to actually try to discuss changes on the talk page if they want to make significant controversial alterations to the article (while still allowing normal editing of the article to proceed as usual). I think after that the person went away and everything was solved. As I said, I don't remember the details. -R. fiend (talk) 05:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Also, apology accepted for misquoting me. There is little quite as annoying as having words you never said attributed to you, knowing full well others would believe the accusations without checking for themselves. I was understandably a bit irritated by that. I realize it was unintentional on your part, so I don't hold it against you. -R. fiend (talk) 05:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, You blocked User:Ed Poor for no reason last October, with absolutely no edit summary. When you were asked by a number of admins to explain, you said Hmmm. Looks like a mistake. Oh well. No harm done" - and that was all you said. When User:WJBscribe suggested you apologise ... well, you didn't bother. User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson ended up unblocking with, "until blocking admin can give reason for original block" - which was never forthcoming. And on it goes ... - Alison 04:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
As an aside, (as I have not investigated the thread of conflict and edits) I would like to point out that completely non-controversial, janitorial-type edits made by admins on protected articles are allowed. Even if the admin is involved, if the edit is a maintenance-type edit (not adding new information, even if uncontroversial) that is not considered an abuse of privileges, as one of the responsibilities of sysops is to perform these janitorial functions on protected articles. Yes, regular users cannot edit protected articles, so admins should not add information to an article (outside of responding to a reasonable {{editprotected}} request that has consensus on the talk page). But fixing the article (gross mispelling, broken link, etc.) is something sysops are supposed to do to protected articles. It does behoove the admin, any admin, to use a very clear edit summary stating that the edit was a maintenance-type, though. -- Avi (talk) 04:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
It's late here and I need to go. If this issue has not been resolved by tomorrow and if someone else has not already filed an RfC, I intend to file one myself - Alison 05:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I already suggested R. fiend exercise extreme care in this area. I'm disappointed he doesn't seem to have gone for my suggestion elsewhere of letting a neutral admin make any edits to the article while it was protected. Having said that, I do think that R. fiend's actual edit was fairly harmless; whether his behaviour taken as a whole merits further action would be for the community to decide. I would personally characterise R. fiend's intervention here as having been well-intentioned, and its conclusion here as being a result of his continually failing to communicate civilly with those he is in dispute with or to properly separate admin from non-admin roles (always a tricky one to call, that one; I should know, I later reverted a change I thought unhelpful and then added a citation tag to it, though not while it was protected...), combined with the highly-charged atmosphere regrettably ever-present on Ireland-related articles these days. I suggest R. fiend learn from the criticism here, indicate such learning has taken place, and we can all get on with life. There is work to be done and I don't think Misplaced Pages will benefit from further magnifying this drama, if all are agreeable to such a conclusion. --John (talk) 05:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- John's analysis seems moderate and appropriate. I would only add the rider that R. fiend might well have been frustrated that some of the editors on that article have such a pronounced point of view that they wish to advance that no amount of rational argument would have persuaded them that one amateur writer's original research was not enough to overturn the combined weight of prvious historical analysis.
- I think it might be wise to form a cadre of obviously uninvolved admins for these nationally and religiously controversial articles in future. Perhaps Hong Kong and Thai admins can patrol Irish articles and Irish and British editors can patrol Singapore and Thai articles? Alice 08:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Further to the above, I want to apologise for the revert on the article; I hadn't studied the history or I would have seen there was an edit-war going on. At the time I was just being BRD about it, and working from the talk page discussion. I now see there seems to have been a lot of edit-warring back and forth on the article; maybe some of the remedies from the recent Arbcom need to be invoked on some of the edit-warriors? --John (talk) 05:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think an RFC is in order here. Looking over this section I'd say R. fiend's behavior and attitude, even in this thread, leaves something to be desired. More discussion and less snark would be good for starters. RxS (talk) 05:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, as I'm sure several others do as well. RfC seems to be the best way to go from this point. - Rjd0060 (talk) 06:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User talk:Voxveritatis
Can an adminstrator please review this user and his defamatory comments about me, continous accusations of libeling him. His comments on the discussion pages, including another wikipeia user User talk:Slp1 are becoming almost harassment. No one has reprimanded him or given him any warnings for continued rule breaking. He claims to be the subject in question (Greg Felton) and is only using wikipedia to edit the page according to his pleasing. I really need help with this user as his actions are becoming disturbing.
Dear Administrator: Eternalsleeper is a troublemaker whose hypocrisy is beyond description. His claims against me are groundless and deliberately provocative. His talk page reads like a rap sheet of reprimands and warnings against rule-breaking.
This whole issue began when he repeated a second-hand libel about me and complained when other editors and I took action. SLP1, for example, is an excellent editor who is well aware of eternalsleeper's misconduct. The claim of harassment is preposterous and inflamatory, and designed to make the accuser appear to be a victim. I ask that you give no notice to this vexatious individual, who is not worth your time.
Thank you. Voxveritatis (talk) 03:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- As you can see from his above posting, you will see what I am referring to.
Speaking of seeing for yourself, please note the following time index from the the history page of "Greg Felton": "21:52, 3 January 2008 Eternalsleeper (Talk | contribs) m (14,359 bytes)"
What eternalsleeper calls a minor edit was in fact a wholesale gutting of several paragraphs of hyperionsteel's contibutions. Eternalsleeper has a history of unethical conduct (see his talk page), and so I ask that you take this latest act as typical of his behaviour.
Voxveritatis (talk) 01:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Repeated removal of tags at Holodomor denial
Since the creation of this page, supporters of the article have repeatedly removed every disputed tag placed on it, in spite of the fact that a substantial minority has questioned whether the article meets encyclopedic standards.
- 9:36, 25 December: User:Horlo creates the page.
- 16:27, 25 December: User:Irpen tags the page with POV and OR templates.
- 8:05, 27 December: User:Horlo removes the tags with the edit summary removed tags - no reason given for their being here.
- 6:57, 28 December: Irpen tries to rewrite the intro to conform to NPOV.
- 7:01: Horlo reverts Irpen with the comment Irpen, this is not a soap box. This is an article about Holodomor denial. The lead paragraph must explain that.
- 7:04: Irpen reverts to his version with the summary I clearly explained at talk.
- 7:28:Horlo reverts Irpen again, with the summary Please do not make any changes without a discussion on the talk page, not just a statement on the talk page.
- 7:39: Irpen adds a totallydisputed tag with the summary: totallydisputed per persistent insertion of factually false info.
- 8:50: Horlo removes the tag with the summary: Removed numbers and tag. (Note that at this stage, Irpen seems to have gone on wikibreak, along with a number of other editors who were expressing concerns over the page).
- 4:39 30 December: Having arrived at the page from DYK, and noting several POV problems that will take time to fix, I add a POV tag to the Duranty section,, and add a comment to the talk page to explain some of my reasons for doing so.
- 5:00: Having read through the article more carefully and seen what I regard as major problems, I move the tag to the top of the article, and leave another note on the talk page explaining my reasons.
- 18:03: Horlo removes the tag without comment.
- 18:07 I restore the tag with the comment Please don't remove disputed templates when there is obviously a dispute going on.
- 18:46: User:Bandurist removes the tag without comment.
- 19:18: I restore the tag, with the comment Please do not remove disputed templates when there is clearly a dispute. See Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute.
- 18:20, 31 December: Horlo removes the tag without comment.
- 6:58: Frustrated at the tag-team tag removal and the stonewalling on the talk page, I add an AFD template in hopes of at least getting more eyes on the page. (This is the first AFD I have initiated in almost two years at the project BTW).
- 14:40, 2 January: Having realized that I am in fact not alone in my concerns about the page and that many other editors have expressed the same or similar concerns, and also having realized what a singularly inappropriate forum AFD is to try and promote debate about content, I withdraw the AFD and restore the totallydisputed tag instead.
- 21:23: User:Vecrumba removes the tag, with the summary withdraw your AFD and instead immediately tag the article? after your ethnic insult, this is nothing but WP:IDONTLIKEIT, tag removed. (I must add that this is prototypical of the kind of response my attempts to get a discussion on content going at the article's talk page have been met with).
- 6:53, 3 January: I restore the tag, with the summary: Replace tag. Multiple editors have expressed the view that this article has serious issues.
- 7:32: User:Termer removes the tag with the summary: the tag "Totallydisputed" not justified for well referenced article, please do not misuse tagging.
- 12:27: I restore the tag with the comment: Well referenced when you don't even have a reference for the article's major premise? I don't think so. Please stop removing tags when you know perfectly well there is a dispute here.
- 13:46: Bandurist removes the tag without comment.
- 23:55: I restore the tag with the comment: For the last time, please stop removing the tag. If it's done again I will have no choice but to take the matter up with AN/I.
- 00:03, 4 January: Bandurist removes the tag without comment.
To summarize the situation, a total of about 18 editors have commented on this article at the talk page or at the AFD. Of those, six, or roughly one third of editors including me, have expressed serious reservations about the page's title and/or premise and/or content.
- User:Irpen opened the talk page discussion with the comment The article is a soapbox and should be deleted. I would welcome serious contributors to help in covering this topic on wikipedia but that kind of soapboxing is totally out of question...
- User:Hillock65 concurs with the comment I have to agree. The title itself is an attempt to mimic the Holocaust denial, which is troubling. There is no basis for that. All of that can be mentioned at the Holodomor article, it doesn't warrant a separate article. If there is a vote, I support redirect to the main article.
- Kuban Cossack made a number of comments, including There is argument over keeping the article...knee-deep in nonsense...This article needs a lot of work!
- User:Molobo (a user who appears to support the article) poses one of the same questions I have: Isn't Holodomor denial also a term for denying that it was a genocide?
- User:Jo0doe accuses the article's supporters of tr to exploit WP as a soapbox".
- In addtion, at the AFD, User: Lankiveil recommended a rename (now my own preferred option) commenting that the name was inherently POV and that the article Definitely has the look of a POV fork.
- User:Bogdan, at the AFD, also expressed the view, which I thoroughly endorse, that the accusation that 'Holodomor Denial' is an original research statement must be disproven in the very first sentence of the article (i.e., which published works cite the term)...it should be explained where such terminology originates (hopefully, not the Ukrainian government).
My point in posting this is not to try and demonstrate that "I am right" in my concerns. It's simply to show that there is substantial dissent about the suitability of this page's title and content, surely more than enough to justify a POV tag.
I regard the removal of a POV tag to be a highly questionable action at any time, but to repeatedly remove a tag when there are clearly major concerns from multiple editors is I believe completely unjustified. POV tags are often the only method that users in the minority have for expressing their concerns about a page and for encouraging debate about content at the talk page.
The users who support this particular page have shown almost no interest in discussion of the article content or in resolving disputes, instead contenting themselves with an endless stream of bad faith accusations or at best red herring obfuscations. If the POV tag is removed, what incentive will they have for entering into debate at all? They will just ignore any concerns raised and ensure by sheer weight of numbers that they get their way on the mainpage. Gatoclass (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Response by User:Vecrumba -- I came to this late and have been met only with comments about Eastern European editor "axe-grinding". Gatoclass fails to mention that his AfD nomination went nowhere (all keep with one rename as I recall), and once he withdrew his AfD since it was obviously failing he then immediately retagged the article. Most recently, I invited Gatoclass to apologize for his uncivil and insulting comments, he asked when we would get back to discussing the article, I asked for specifics, and his response was to open the above, choosing not to respond to my request for his specific top three problems so the discussion could move forward. Gatoclass' blanket assumption of bad faith on the part of Eastern European editors and, for example, myself insisting I am participating only to shed light on the past being proof of his charges of Eastern European axe-grinding ("hoist(ed) by my own petard") is unfortunate at best. Then there is Gatoclass' statement he owes no apology (re: axe-grinding et al.) for "stating the obvious." One only has to read the current Holodomor denial article talk page. I'm sorry, but if Gatoclass is looking to identify recalcitrant parties, he only need look as far as himself. —PētersV (talk) 04:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this incident report wasn't made "in response" to your supposed generous offer, you made that post while I was busy preparing the above post, and I didn't see it until I had posted here.
- But in response to your purported offer to bury the hatchet, I invite users to take a closer look at the post of PetersV to which he refers, and ask themselves just how conciliatory it actually is:
- ...(Totallydisputed) tagging does not connote assumption of good faith on your part, I expect the tag to stay off. Let's deal with any specific factual problems first. If you apologize for your uncivil conduct and are prepared to abide by the consensus of editors once factual errors are corrected, we can make progress. If you think the editorial community here is a axe-grinding cabal out to get any opposition (you), I'm just as happy to go to arbitration enforcement over your conduct. Everyone here has better ways to spend their time than indulge spleen venting.
- I'm sorry, but I am also tired of "reminders" about what ArbCom is going to do to me. I have asked you to deal with any issues of fact specifically one by one and you have obviously made up your mind already. I suppose this means you're not apologizing either. This would appear to conclude our dialog here.
- Note how his threat to take me to arbcom is parlayed into my alleged threat to take him there. I'm afraid this is a classic example of PetersV's modus operandi, which is to say his apparent inability to take responsibility for his own attitude and conduct. Gatoclass (talk) 08:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)]]
- Oh please. You threaten AN/I and indicate the conduct of *all* (your asterisks) editors will be under scrutiny should things go to Arbcom. I react to your threat saying I tire of those tactics and say fine, take this wherever you want to go with it officially, and that's now me attacking you? You can't see past your bad-faith blinders. I'm sorry that you've had editorial battles that have caused you to carry a bucket of tar and bag of feathers wherever you go to apply to axe-grinding (your perception, your words, sorry you'll keep seeing them) editors. —PētersV (talk) 16:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- And where have I even dealt with you that you, Gatoclass, know anything about my "modus operandi"? I've managed to reach consensus on content with paid (and now banned) propaganda pushers. Perhaps the lack of consensus here isn't all my doing. I have no conduct to be ashamed of or any responsibility to shirk for any actions I've taken. Frankly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone assume as much bad faith on the part of other editors as you. —PētersV (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- And on conciliation, yes, I do expect a {{totallydisputed}} tag to not be used as a tool of intimidation while editors work toward a consensus. 10, 100, 1,000 {{fact}} tags? Have at it! After an editor denigrates their editorial opposition, I would expect an act of conciliation on their part. No, just more diatribe here on how I've unfairly set upon Gatoclass in keeping with my M.O.. —PētersV (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I did tell Gatoclass I expected him to assume good faith and not re-tag the article and instead come up with specific items. His response was to post the above instead. His characterization of my removing his immediate tagging upon abject failure of his AfD as "prototypical" of editorial behavior he has encountered is little more than acting as sheriff, judge, and jury. From my perspective, his immediate lumping me into his cabal of prototypical Eaastern European axe-grinders is proof that Gatoclass is all about preconceived stereotypes, in fact, seeking battle (when did you last read of an editor invoking petard hoisting?) against an editorial enemy he has already convicted--and not about reaching consensus on content. —PētersV (talk) 05:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- A typical content dispute... I personally believe that User:Gatoclass is fighting against a consensus of several good users who worked hard to create and improve this interesting article.Biophys (talk) 05:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I did tell Gatoclass I expected him to assume good faith and not re-tag the article and instead come up with specific items. His response was to post the above instead. His characterization of my removing his immediate tagging upon abject failure of his AfD as "prototypical" of editorial behavior he has encountered is little more than acting as sheriff, judge, and jury. From my perspective, his immediate lumping me into his cabal of prototypical Eaastern European axe-grinders is proof that Gatoclass is all about preconceived stereotypes, in fact, seeking battle (when did you last read of an editor invoking petard hoisting?) against an editorial enemy he has already convicted--and not about reaching consensus on content. —PētersV (talk) 05:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I read through the links above, the talk page, and so on. Horlo's intro para, the first one, is bbetter than Irpen's. Irpen's second para ought to be incorporated into the lead as it now stands, which is solid and neutral. The talk page is Gatoclass VS a stack of editors who have provided sources, and tried to engage him. maybe I'm missing something ,but it reads to me like
- 'get me sources, cause i don't like or believe this'
- "well, here's these books, these speeches, and this stuff that supports us"
- 'no no, get me the sources I want'
- "Like what?"
- 'Well, like those books and sppeches and stuff, but saying hwat I want them to say'
- "Which is?"
- 'What I believed at the very beginning, stop challenging my preconcieved notions and agree with them.'
- "what can we do to change your mind?"
- 'get me sources, cause i don't like or believe this'
- GOSUB line 20.
- I read through the links above, the talk page, and so on. Horlo's intro para, the first one, is bbetter than Irpen's. Irpen's second para ought to be incorporated into the lead as it now stands, which is solid and neutral. The talk page is Gatoclass VS a stack of editors who have provided sources, and tried to engage him. maybe I'm missing something ,but it reads to me like
- This is a content dispute that one person refuses to let go of, despite sources and consensus. Why? Don't know. b ut the race-baiting might be a clue. Gatoclass needs to find other articles to work on. ThuranX (talk) 05:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- In 1932-33 the Ukrainian ethnographic territory was divided up primarilly between Poland and the USSR. The Holodomor is the term that Ukrainian people use for the Great Famine of 1932-33 which took place on the Soviet side of Ukrainian Ethnic territory. Many Ukrainians who lived on the Soviet side of Ukrainian ethnographic territory died. Some say up to a quarter of the population. It was initially denied by Soviet authorities. Various journalist also made reports denying the Famine. Visiting dignitaries also made reports denying it. In 1983 the Ukrainian community in the diaspora made a concerted effort to bring public attention on this act. As a result the first secretary of the Communist Party in Ukraine acknowleged that the Famine happened in 1987. In circa 1991 the term Holodomor was introduced by a Ukrainian writer from Ukraine to specifically describe the great Famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine. In 2006 the Ukrainian parliament passed a law stating that the Holodomor was an act of Genocide and made it a criminal offence to publically deny its existence. many countries have also joined in labeling it an act of Genocide
The Holodomor and aspects related to it have been the subject of heated debate since 1932-33. During the course of history numerous people have denied that it took place. This article gives a concise list and references to the people, companies and organizations that made statements of denial of the Famine. Despite the Holodomor having been acknowleged by the Ukrainian government and many other governments, Books and materials written specifically to deny the existence of the Holodomor have continued to be published by organizations (up until 2002) and despite some being withdrawn from sale are available to download without explanation that they were withdrawn from sale or to the inaccuracies within them. These writings continue to be quoted in various disgusion groups. Early scholarship on this topic has been quite poor, with examples of incorrectly labeled photographs and poor access to source materials which initially hampered the subject and which continues to cause problems. There exist a small group of editors who are vehemently opposed to this topic for reasons that are not clearly explained, who continually obstruct the work of the editors of this article by the continuous placement of various labels, discussions not related to the topic and general rudeness. Bandurist (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- For 5 or 6 days now, Gatoclass has done nothing but attack the recently started article on Holodomor denial, which by the way was proposed for a DYK, before this relentless campaign against the article, and its editors was started by Gatoclass. (See here for more comments about the DYK nomination.) After all sorts of claims about the article, including that clearly sourced statements by Walter Duranty were only "alleged", and that using "denial" to refer to what Duranty, Fischer, and others did with respect to the Holodomor was "odious", Gatoclass took the article to AfD, where his nomination was soundly rejected by a vast majority (I'd say, near-unanimity). In the process, Gatoclass harassed many of the editors expressing opinions contrary to his, implying that their opposition to deletion was based on their supposed ethnic origin, stating:
- "Did I ever stop to ponder why so many disagreed with me? Sure I did. And in that regard I couldn't help but notice that all of the editors of the page apart from me appear to be of East European origin, with potential axes to grind against their former Soviet overlords. Just as this AFD is currently accumulating a host of "Keep" votes from Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Hungarians and so on."
- I personally was outraged by this. Several other editors expressed their dismay: ,. Gatoclass never apologized for these remarks, but only continued his campaign of tagging and random accusations, despite repeated attempts to come to an understanding, clear the air, and move to a more productive, dignified discussion -- most recently by PētersV. How much longer do we have to put up with this kind of attitude? Turgidson (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Turgidson purports to be "outraged" by the fact that an editor should suggest that someone's national or political loyalties might possibly influence their political viewpoint. That he should seek to twist such a banal and everyday observation into some kind of insult only demonstrates how desperate he is to find a weapon with which to attack me. For the record, I did not volunteer this comment - I am not normally in the habit of commenting on users at all, as it obviously isn't conducive to a co-operative atmosphere. The comment was made in response to Turgidson's own question regarding what I thought might be motivating my opponents, in which case I gave him a frank reply. (If someone solicits my opinion about an aspect of their behaviour and I oblige, am I to blame if they don't like the answer?). But if I'd realized then what a meal he would try to make of this passing comment, I might nevertheless have been more cautious in my response.
- I can't help but wonder now whether his question was merely a means of setting me up in order to denounce me for my "prejudice". Either that, or he must be about the only editor left on Misplaced Pages who is yet to acknowledge the problems that nationalist POVs present to this project. And I suppose I may have been put somewhat offguard by my participation at the Arab-Israeli pages, where editors are openly referred to as "nationalists" and even "ultranationalists" with barely a murmur of protest. If I'd realized what a bunch of shrinking violets our East European editors were by comparison, I'm sure I would have been more circumspect. Gatoclass (talk) 07:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- My dear Gatoclass. You obviously have not stopped to consider that Baltic/Eastern European editors are well aware of what misperceptions still linger after 50 years behind the Iron Curtain. That means said editors make absolutely sure they have reputable sources before even starting on an edit because they know they will be challenged by those who hold onto misconceptions. You, however, see heritage merely as an affliction which apparently is so well-known to induce bias that to make note of it is "banal." And then "wonder" (accuse) whether Turgidson, among the most reputable editors I know, made you a victim of a setup? You need to work on adjuting your perspective of the Gatoclass-centric universe. Any other conspiracies you'd like to propose? —PētersV (talk) 17:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I note that some of my opponents have described this as a "content dispute" and I quite agree. That's why I tagged the article. These users are trying to present this article to the readership as issue-free when multiple users have raised serious questions about this article.
- WP:NPOVD states the following:
- Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed...the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved.
- Just because the other editors who made the same complaints about the article as I did currently appear to be taking a Wikibreak, does not mean that "disputes have indeed been resolved" - clearly, they haven't. I am simply asking for some support from the community for what I regard as a fundamental policy - the right to tag an article which is in dispute. If there is no community support for even such a basic principle as this, what is to prevent a majority of likeminded users from totally controlling an article by sheer weight of numbers?
- One more point - as usual there have been multiple attacks on my character in the responses above, falsely accusing me of "bad faith" (when a look at the talk page will reveal that it is I who have been subjected to a relentless stream of bad faith accusations), of "general rudeness" (when I have bent over backwards to remain civil), of having some sort of vendetta against East Europeans (I haven't made a substantial edit to a page involving Eastern Europe for eighteen months - take a look at my adversaries' contributions by way of comparison), and even, ludicrously, of "race-baiting" (Eastern Europeans are a race?). I'm afraid this has been the general tenor of "debate" on the article talk page from the outset. So when reading about my alleged breaches of good conduct, please take note of these ad hominem attacks and ask yourself which party is bent on personalizing this dispute. Gatoclass (talk) 06:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Like already pointed out to you several times, Gatoclass. Please feel free to follow WP:NPOV by adding any alternative takes in to the article according to any published sources of your liking. Misuse of tagging such as adding "totallydisputed" to the well referenced article is not going to be tolerated. Thanks for your understanding.--Termer (talk) 08:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
RE: Gatoclass And in that regard I couldn't help but notice that all of the editors of the page apart from me appear to be of East European origin, with potential axes to grind against their former Soviet overlords. Just as this AFD is currently accumulating a host of "Keep" votes from Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Hungarians and so on."
Whoa, even if it was the case, which is not, everybody who has bothered to check out the userpages who have voted at the AFD can see that the alleged "East European origin" is a speculation at best and in fact there were editors involved who have clearly identified themselves as not of East European descent. But the point would be arguments like this shouldn't be used really on WP to support your opinions as far as I'm concerned. Regarding grind against their former Soviet overlords, that must be a joke since Soviet Union collapsed about 20 years ago if I'm not mistaken.--Termer (talk) 08:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good work Termer, you guys just keep beating me over the head with the same comment I made several days ago after solicitation of my opinion by one of your own number. Don't forget to alternate it now and again with the "Hoist by your own petard" comment or people might get bored.
- Update: User:TableManners restores the tag,, User:Biophys deletes it.. Gatoclass (talk) 08:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Update: User:TableManners has not participated in article discussion, did not post a notice of their tag insertion, and so far have not responded to what, specifically, needs to be corrected. Total and complete contribution = reinsert tag with a "please" don't remove comment. Exactly how is this a constructive step toward consensus-building? Tagging with no further input? Whether or not it was what the editor intended, for all functional purposes, that's no better than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. —PētersV (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Update: User:Crotalus horridus retags and adds WP:OR tag instead of responding to where I indicated his conclusions were mistaken (for example, apparently one can't call Duranty a "Holodomor denier" even if he's a "famine denier" before the word Holodomor was widely adopted to refer to the famine). More tagging and pushing editorial viewpoints by editors who have apparently said all they have to say. Don't agree with them? Here come two tags. —PētersV (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Update: User:TableManners has not participated in article discussion, did not post a notice of their tag insertion, and so far have not responded to what, specifically, needs to be corrected. Total and complete contribution = reinsert tag with a "please" don't remove comment. Exactly how is this a constructive step toward consensus-building? Tagging with no further input? Whether or not it was what the editor intended, for all functional purposes, that's no better than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. —PētersV (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Gatoclass. And sure, unless I have missed something and you have apologized for supporting your opinions with commenting the possible ethnic background of your opponents instead of the content or referring to any published sources, always ready to help to remind you your mistake. that keeps at last you from repeating it I hope.--Termer (talk) 08:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
PS. How about my suggestion feel free to follow WP:NPOV by adding any alternative takes in to the article according to any published sources of your liking. you keep ignoring for some reason?--Termer (talk) 09:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not going to apologize for giving an opinion that I was asked to contribute. An opinion moreover that ought to be self-evident to anyone with a lick of sense. And I am certainly not going to apologize to people who in my opinion have been roughly an order of magnitude more uncivil than me.
- I'm not asking for an apology and I don't need one, but if you want an apology from me, you folks will first have to apologize for the way you have pilloried me these last few days for happening to hold a contrary opinion. Gatoclass (talk) 09:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Since you keep ignoring my request for any alternative published sources that would be in conflict with the denial of the famine called holodomor ; to back your opinions or the tagging, please let me remind you that the rules are simple. Any material that is challenged and for which no source is provided may be removed by any editor according to Misplaced Pages:Citing sources. therefore feel free to ignore the request for alternative published sources and tag the article, until no source is provided to back up the opinionated tag, it's going to be removed by any editor. Thanks--Termer (talk) 09:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, I forgot to add a comment about that. My response as always is that this is not in my opinion a dispute that can be resolved with the addition of a few extra sources. It's a dispute about (a) the name, about whether or not "Holodomor denial" is an encyclopedic topic, and (b) if it is encyclopedic, where are the scholarly sources to validate that, and (c) if (a) and (b) are satisfied, is the current content truly reflective of the article name and if not, should we be adopting a different name that reflects the article content, or should we keep the name and dump the content? So you see it's not something that can be fixed just by adding more info to the article, it's a structural problem that really needs some planning on the talk page first IMO. Gatoclass (talk) 09:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- It is strange that you bring up issues over here that have been addressed on the talk page several times. whether or not "Holodomor denial" is an encyclopedic topic is pretty straight forward in case you have looked up one of the primary sources, it's an encyclopedia. But just in case, I'll just cite it once more: the famine is called holodomor ...Denial of the famine declined after the Communist Party lost power.... So in case you have any alternative encyclopedic perspectives on the subject, please do not hesitate to provide some published sources to back up your opinions. thanks!--Termer (talk) 09:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello, in reading over the debates and discussion, I see two separate issues: first, one of content; second, one of procedure. If I may, I would like to deal with them in order.
First, the issue of content. Very early in the existence of the article, a POV tag was added, with no appropriate discussion on the talk page. Therefore, I removed the tag. User:Irpen added another tag, stating that there were some questionable numbers in the lead. . I removed the numbers, re-wrote the lead, and removed the tag. There has been no issue with user:Irpen since that time. Every effort has been made to cite only verifiable - and non-offensive - sources, including changing citations, such as here: .
The second issue is one of procedure. An editor appears and applies tags without any discussion on the talk page or any attempt to improve the article. As discussed above, issues are dealt with in good faith. User:Gatoclass's issues are repeatedly addressed, for example here: and here: and here: .
One editor does not agree with a consensus. An AfD is initiated. This is understandable, especially considering user:Gatoclass's closing comments: it was an attempt to bring more people to the discussion, and that is a good thing. Unfortunately, even though that AfD seems to have ended on a positive note, a POV tag was added to the article immediately after the AfD was closed. This seems to have become personal to user:Gatoclass, and that is a bad thing. To me, this AnI appears to be arena-hunting.
What really offends me is dismissive statements such as "editors of the page apart from me appear to be of East European origin, with potential axes to grind against their former Soviet overlords". User:Gatoclass has no idea where I am from. I understand that such things may be written with no subliminal intent, but they do highlight the difficulties in writing articles about Eastern Europe, and possible biases towards the articles and editors.
Hopefully, now, a larger number of editors has been reached. Again, thank you to user:Gatoclass for bringing wider attention to this topic, and I look forward to any help in developing this article, Horlo (talk) 09:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- What really offends me is dismissive statements such as "editors of the page apart from me appear to be of East European origin, with potential axes to grind against their former Soviet overlords".
- Good, thank you for reminding readers of my sole purported transgression once again, it's only two minutes ago since Termer reposted it and they may have forgotten already.
- There has been no issue with user:Irpen since that time.
- Irpen has been on Wikibreak since 28 December, along IIRC with some of the other editors who expressed objections.
- An editor appears and applies tags without any discussion on the talk page
- I have commented exhaustively on the talk page about my concerns. It is just extraordinary for you guys to keep making this absurd claim that I have not tried to initiate "discussion on the talk page". Unfortunately though, I have had next to no response to my requests for a genuine good faith discussion. Except, that is, for a barrage of bad faith assumptions and trumped up charges in regards to my character.
- In any case, I don't think this is the place to discuss the parameters of the content dispute itself. I opened this discussion solely to try and establish the principle that a minority of good faith users in good standing has the right to expect that they can tag a page with a dispute template without having that template continually removed when it's clear that consensus is yet to be achieved. That's all, it's nothing complicated really. Gatoclass (talk) 10:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Surely "the minority" has the right to have their POV attached to any article as long as it's based on a published source. Since you have failed to provide any...I hope that I don't need to keep repeating it. Good night from LA--Termer (talk) 10:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- No Termer, it's not me who has failed to provide a scholarly source, it's you who has failed - to provide a scholarly source which proves that the very topic of your article, holodomor denial, is a precise concept that really has some recognition and a discernible meaning beyond the assumption you have made about what it must mean because you think it's self-evident. Or which proves that it isn't just a political slogan used to promote a particular version of history, ie that the holodomor was a genocide. And so on.
- I don't have to provide a source Termer. The onus is on you to provide a scholarly source to prove that your topic is genuinely encyclopedic in some way and not just another political epithet designed to attack someone. Gatoclass (talk) 10:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- you don't have to provide a source? Then you shouldn't be surprised that your opinions are going to be ignored as you have ignored the sources provided in the article. --Termer (talk) 17:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I have to admit some confusion. Gatoclass is maintaining that Stalin suppressing news of the famine, denying the famine where the outside world was concerned, how that campaign was conducted, who assisted (Duranty), what the impact is on current perspectives is not a topic worth encyclopedic attention?
As I just mentioned on the article talk page, it's silly for editors to contend Duranty hasn't been called a "Holodomor denier"--Holodomor has not been in popular use for that long. There are plenty of sources that discuss suppreession and denial. We can call it "Suppression of news of the Ukrainian famine and denial of its existence". Gatoclass doesn't like the topic, the title, or anything about it. Perhaps it's not the most constructive place to be contributing.
I haven't "threatened" Gatoclass over anything, in fact it takes little effort to read the talk page to see where I suggest not invoking the "Digwuren" ruling, to give Gatoclass an opportunity to be more constructive. As for Gatoclass' calumnies over threats and personal attacks, no one has threatened or attacked him. I'm sorry for whatever editorial battles he has had elsewhere, but frankly I don't care. I have never dealt with Gatoclass before and I expect better than jumping to petard hoisting conclusions proving conspiracy and axe-grinding theories that exist only in his brain.
I have no problem with negotiating through content disputes and have reach compromises with editors whom I agree not one whit, as long as we stick to sources. Therefore this is not a "content dispute". Gatoclass has attacked me but has not negotiated with me over one shred of content. (Except to note my alternate title using "suppression" not "denial" was "accusatory".) This is an editor, Gatoclass, deciding to conduct his activities along battle lines that are only in his mind and, in keeping with that plan, attacks reputable editors as adversaries instead of resources with whom he should be working to build consensus. —PētersV (talk) 17:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC) <- sometime earlier, accidentally deleted signature
Exit death spiral?
To Gatoclass: if you can admit that your (to you "banal", to your targets, "offensive") stereotyping of editors was a mistake, perhaps we might resume more constructive uses of our time and get back to article specifics on the talk page. A friendly word of advice--don't think that those who tag or otherwise disapprove of articles in the Baltic/Eastern European space are acting 100% in the defense of "NPOV" and not their own POV. I can't speak for the other editors, but since you appear to have come in on something that started before you and have not dealt with a number of the editors here before and have obviously acted based on misperceptions--I certainly haven't dealt with you before this, a small act of contrition on your part might allow us all to put this to bed and move on. —PētersV (talk) 17:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Meaning whether or not your opinion was solicited, that it stereotyped editors was a problem, not that you don't apologize for your opinion (whether or not it was solicited is immaterial). You're entitled to whatever opinion you like, but the rules are different if it's regarding editors with whom you are attempting to engage in discourse. —PētersV (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I can't apologize for something I haven't done. I never accused anyone, specifically or even generally, of "axe grinding" in relation to this page. I merely noted - in response to the question put to me - that one could hardly fail to observe that editors from former Eastern bloc had potential "axes to grind" in relation to the USSR. Which is to say, I don't know whether or to what extent this apparent COI might be effecting someone's judgement, but that the potential is there for it to do so. Would anyone seriously want to dispute such a self-evident statement?
- So hopefully now that I have offered this clarification, we can move on. Gatoclass (talk) 04:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
So whats wrong with these now democratic nations telling their stories on WP, according to the published sources of their imprisonment by the totalitarian regime that was no different from Nazi Germany? Again, in case you do have any alternative POV-s you might support, like the conservative-communist-stalinist revisionism would fit well the pattern of ideas you have been representing, why don't you just add the POV to the article? Or doesn't the "denial of the Holodomor denial", the stalinist-soviet sympathizer ideology allow any room for alternative viewpoints like it was common practice also for the totalitarian regime, suppress the liberal and free thought and ideas? I'm not getting it, what exactly do you think you're going to accomplish here? Even though the article is currently about the denial of the famine, not about the denial of the famine as a genocide, sooner or later there are going to be more and more countries added to these 15 who have recognized holodomor as a genocide. The soviet union is in the histories garbage bin and there are free nations emerged who are free to express their POV on WP like any other party, including the conservative-communists who might hold, in your words "axe-grinding" against Easter Europe because they helped to end the prison state -communist-Soviet-empire. The WP:NPOV requires, in case there are conflicting perspectives, each should be presented fairly. So why do you hesitate adding the POV you support to the article instead keep trying to put the subject away by any means possible including listing it for deletion and bringing it here at the notice board?--Termer (talk) 06:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, at LEAST we've got Gatoclass' objection down. He doesn't believe there IS such a thign as the PHRASE 'holomodor denial'. are there any sources out there which use it? Link them here, and we can bring them to the article, and then we can address Gatoclass' bigoted 'you're all a cabal' racist attitudes. ThuranX (talk) 06:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Where do I take this mess?
this user page is the editor's only real work, and it's creepy, if nothing else. I ceratinly don't want to know how he 'scores' it. Is this MfD material? or can an admin just fix it? ThuranX (talk) 03:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- MfD, IMO. It looks like a record of some sort of contest or game. It doesn't look like an attempt to build an encyclopaedia. Guettarda (talk) 03:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The user hasn't edited in months, so I just blanked it. As Jimbo says, this is a wiki, after all. ;) --B (talk) 03:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Holy friggin' World Catfight Championships. bibliomaniac15 04:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Is THAT what it was? I sorta was afraid to think into it too deeply. Thanks B. ThuranX (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Holy friggin' World Catfight Championships. bibliomaniac15 04:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The user hasn't edited in months, so I just blanked it. As Jimbo says, this is a wiki, after all. ;) --B (talk) 03:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Raggz
Can someone please keep an eye on User:Raggz? For several months, he's been adding false information to articles and systematically deleting anything critical of the United States government — often for patently false reasons. He's received countless warnings, and several editors have gone to great lengths to explain how he's been violating Misplaced Pages's core policies. He either ignores the warnings or apologises and carries on exactly as before.
For example, he's just added a brazen lie into an article about the Iraq war. In response to a Human Rights Watch claim that the human rights situation in Iraq before the invasion was "not of the exceptional nature that would justify such intervention", Raggz states that "the International Criminal Court refuted this claim after an extensive investigation". However, the source he cites (PDF) makes absolutely no mention of the human rights situation in Iraq before the invasion. In fact, the International Criminal Court has never examined this, as it's clearly outside the court's jurisdiction. This is just one example of how Raggz systematically invents stuff and distorts his sources to advance his POV. I've included a few more examples in the collapsible box below. Regards, Sideshow Bob Roberts (talk) 05:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- When I first began editing WP, controversial topics unfortunately drew my attention because they so clearly violated the WP NPOV and OR policies. The ICC articles drew my interest early, they might have been my first editing projects. I did sometimes and still do violate WP policies, but by error and not intent. When this was correctly brought to my attention by Sideshow Bob Roberts I apologized and changed. When this was incorrectly brought to my attention by Sideshow Bob Roberts I did not apologize and persisted. Sometimes I later discovered that he was correct, sometimes not. Sideshow Bob Roberts is not easy to work with, particularly when his pov-based agenda is denied expression. He knows international law and WP policy better than I do and does not collaberate or help, but uses this as an advantage to advance his pov. I've asked for insight six months back from other editors on a WP page for this, and got one comment and none from him. I suggest reading my comment to Sideshow Bob Roberts on his page last week. More than anything else it will explain my collaberative attitude with Sideshow Bob Roberts.
- He cites errors of six months or more back, but not my many useful edits. I could debate his collapsable box material, but why? I should be judged by how I edit now. As for the "brazen lie", he could have simply added his concerns to TALK, and if he was correct (as he too often is) I would have changed it if necessary. I don't know how to source his abusive posts and am not inclined to play his game anyway.
- On page 7 (footnotes) of the source cited is the information referenced in regard to Human Rights Watch. On page 3? it states that 250+ claims of human rights violations were recieved and no evidence was found to support these. The ICC does have jurisdiction over ICC members in Iraq, and did investigate the human rights issues with this jurisdiction. It is all in the citation. The US and the UK have conducted joint operations, and if widespread violations of human rights were ocurring, the UK would be involved with these and these would be in the report. You may judge if the inclusion of the UN and ICC sections involve "brazen lies".
- I stand by my edits generally. I also stand by my unintended errors, and also my corrections and retractions that were sometimes necessary. Sideshow Bob Roberts is a pov warrior, but a smart one that plays within the rules. As I get experience, as I become a better editor, my participation with controversial articles threatens the few pov warriors camped in a few controversial articles. I knew that editing controversial articles where the pov warriors are camped out would eventually require your review. Human rights and the United States is a better and far more recent editing project, I suggest visiting it to get a sense of my style, strengths, and weaknesses as an editor.
- Sideshow Bob Roberts is incorrect to say "adding false information to articles and systematically deleting anything "critical of the United States government". I make errors, and admit to these when corrected. I systematically edit OR and NPOV, sometimes aggressively. The articles that I edit are usually heavily in violation of NPOV guidelines, so I often delete material "critical of the United States government", but only when it is OR or in violation of NPOV. I recently deleted dozens of citations where the citation did not support the text. Most material "critical of the United States government" is of course retained if it meets WP guidelines (in my opinion). A review of the articles I edit will prove this, they are filled with such material "critical of the United States government". The United States government has much that should properly be criticised, but this should be accurate, referenced, and need sustain the NPOV policy. I delete or edit that which is (in my opinion) innaccurate, unreferenced, and does not sustain the NPOV policy. Raggz (talk) 07:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- A few quick points:
- 2. I made a specific accusation that Raggz told a "brazen lie" today. He responded, as usual, by citing a source that has nothing to do with his claim.
- 3. It's true that I'm mostly citing examples from a few months ago, but a glance at his recent contributions reveals that his behaviour hasn't changed. Of course any admin action should be based on his current behaviour, not past mistakes.
- 4. "I've asked for insight six months back from other editors on a WP page for this, and got one comment and none from him." - I have no idea what this means.
- 5. With respect to his most recent message on my talk page, Raggz pretends he wants to collaborate with other users but he conistently ignores editors who disagree with him. On countless occasions, I've written lengthy posts explaining to Raggz how one of his theories is wrong and asking him to cite a source for his claim, only for him to completely ignore me and continue making the false claim. There's just no point trying to engage him in a rational discussion. Sideshow Bob Roberts (talk) 08:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- From International Criminal Court This is a typical example of me making an error and admitting to this. I suggest visiting Talk, and note the lack of collaberative effort by Sideshow Bob Roberts. He claims that I am incapable of engaging in a "rational discussion". Judge below if this is actually true. Raggz (talk) 09:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- "Dozens of reliable, published sources explicitly state that judicial authorisation is not required where a situation has been referred by a State Party or the Security Council. See, for example: Christopher Keith Hall: "The Powers and Role of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in the Global Fight against Impunity". Leiden Journal of International Law (2004), 17: 121-139; Michela Miraglia: "The First Decision of the ICC Pre-Trial Chamber". J Int Criminal Justice 2006; 4: 188-195; or Annie Wartanian: "The ICC Prosecutor's Battlefield: Combating Atrocities While Fighting for States' Cooperation. Lessons from the U.N. Tribunals Applied to the Case of Uganda". Georgetown Journal of International Law 36 no4 1289-316 Summ 2005 (which is free to read here). Does anyone object to changing this? Sideshow Bob Roberts 03:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not I. Your legal expertise when engaged, rarely fails to illuminate. Thank you for correcting my error. I didn't follow your explanation fully, but as long as you are certain that the ICC Prosecutor may investigate the Iraq War without referral from a State Party, I'm fine. Raggz 03:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC) "
- =================================
- "Hello, you became so heated last time we worked together that I took a break to give you the opportunity to calm down. I've been working on some articles today and expect that you will have comments. This time may we work together collegially and productively? Our past collaborations have improved several articles and we may continue to do this together. So, let me know which, if any edits may be issues for you. Raggz (talk) 06:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)" .
- Would it help you both to ask for outside assistance, i.e. mediation or RFC? Nomen Nescio 10:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't see what that could possibly achieve. I have no doubt that Raggz would just ignore the outcome, just as he ignores our core policies, ignores user warnings ( ), ignores consensus, and ignores detailed explanations of how his claims are incorrect. I have no doubt that he'll continue to do this until an administrator intervenes. If he's allowed to continue inserting blatantly false claims into articles, our core policies are pretty meaningless. Sideshow Bob Roberts (talk) 12:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Extended Discussion |
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The following is a discussion that has been placed in a collapse box for improved usability. |
1. He has made dozens of false claims about the International Criminal Court, without ever citing sources that agree with him. For example:
It has been repeatedly explained to Raggz that this is false, that it's original research, and that there's a consensus against making this claim. He has ignored these detailed explanations, and he has attempted to use his theory to silence all debate about the legality of the invasion: he has claimed on the talk page that Misplaced Pages's discussion about the legality of the war "only requires one paragraph" and he has repeatedly removed the statement that "A dispute exists over the legitimacy of the 2003 invasion of Iraq" . At one point in the discussion, he falsely claimed that "we have consensus that the legality of the war is a long-settled issue" . When it was pointed out that there was a consensus against including his claim and that Raggz was the only person who disagreed with this, he claimed a "consensus of one" , cited WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY as an excuse to ignore the consensus and carried on inserting his false claim into various articles.
(- Maybe you should just have said 'A former CIA official'? That article only mentions one, Tyler Drumheller.--Lopakhin (talk) 15:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC))
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The above is an extended discussion that has been collapsed for improved usability. |
User talk:Debbiesvoucher 3rd request
I'm none too happy about having to go through the archive to find that my complaint was moved there with no action or response taken on it, even after I had to come back to the complaint the second time and ask again for someone to look into it, and then someone else put (needs attention) on the heading. This is the original request:
The comments that this user made in response to my note regarding the rude and incivil edit summary left on the Front Page Challenge page (diff) & admonition regarding a pattern of unsourced, speculative and original research additions was beyond acceptable, and is not new behavior from this user & his/her sock puppet. This is a sock puppet identity of another user who has said similar things in the past (diff) and was blocked for it, nearly identical to what was said tonight. (diff) My confirmation was the comment regarding the use of interlibrary loan, which was brought up in a dispute resolution process for the article Karyn Kupcinet. I can't file a sock puppet report on this until after the holiday week, as one or the other identity has indicated elsewhere that he or she is not at the regular place he/she posts during the holiday. This is a pattern of behavior that waxes and wanes from this user. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I would think that at least SOME administrator would leave, at least, a warning about personal attacks. If no one on this board wants to deal with it, could you at least direct me to someone who will? Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've responded to the user, fwiw. --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Actions of User:DrVonDre
This user has constantly been violating he rules of Misplaced Pages and the Dragon Ball project. All his contributions are towards an article speculating a sequel to Dragon Ball GT, called Dragon Ball FO. The article is up for deletion and he has been warned many times, but he still is editing DBZ related articles and giving misleading info. I suggest putting a temporary ban on him to refrain him from vandalizing. Thank you. UzEE (Talk • Contribs) 11:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Could we not wait a few days first so that the AFD debate can complete? He's not that high volume. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 12:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The debate is obviously going in one direction, and besides. All he is doing is spreading false information and speculation. And this is against Misplaced Pages policy. UzEE (Talk • Contribs) 12:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- But why rush? He may well be speculating but we don't know if the information is false, perhasps someone will come up with a source then the deletion debate may reverse. I don't think is very likely but I don't see any urgency needed to block him yet either. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 14:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- He also vandalized the AfD, removing multiple remarks and replacing them with his own. Collectonian (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Why do you hate me? Dont be racists, everyone are humans. And I like Dragonball, so I share my knowledge. -DrVonDre
- Please assume good faith. Attributing this to hate or racism is completely inappropriate. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is a policy. You appear to be repeatedly ignoring it by adding unverified information to multiple articles. We don't need to be the first website to report anything. The information can be added when we have reliable sources to use as sources for the additions. --Onorem♠Dil 13:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
His source "Yamada Tarou" is the Japanese equivalent of John Doe. So this is officially a hoax. JuJube (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
There seems to be more drama at this article, with cross-allegations of defamation and possible violations of WP:3RR. I got a message on my talk page at . Could a neutral sysop look at this please? Bearian (talk) 16:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Question about having personal contact information on user page
A new user placed a lot of personal contact information on their user page, mainly home and mobile phone numbers. I've blanked that from their page, but I'm wondering if the history should be deleted, too? I'd rather not place the diff here, in case I'm just being overly paranoid, but if an admin agrees, just drop me a note on my talk page and I'll give you the diff. Thanks. Yngvarr 12:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- If the user is a minor, delete and explain to them why it's a bad idea, if they are major just blank and tell them, in my opinion. The user might wish not to be anonymous. -- lucasbfr 12:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- An admin took care of it, under WP:NOT#WEBHOST. Yngvarr 12:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Mark Speight
I'll be offline for most of the weekend as usual. I've been keeping an eye on Mark Speight which may become the target for a spate (sorry, couldn't help myself) of vandalism, as he's just become the subject of some lurid and unfortunate news in the UK. As a kids' TV presenter, and a BBC man to boot, this will no doubt attract the Red Tops, so I suspect this will become a very big story.
I've slapped on a current tag but for now there's nothing like enough activity to need protection... but the news is still very fresh. Please can some other admins keep an eye on it for the next couple of days at least. Ta. --Dweller (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- PS The redlink Natasha Collins may well turn blue and require similar watching, although sadly there's no BLP issues there. --Dweller (talk) 12:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Informed of possible sockpuppet
I appreciate that I should be doing this on the sockpuppet reporting page, but I do not know enough about the case to be able to fill it in. Earlier today, I posted a warning on User:82.83.130.148 about assuming good faith. I got the following reply on my talk page:
- Thank you for your advice. I did first assume good faith, but the edits of User:Polysynaptic have only the purpose to falsify facts. He not only deletes scholastic sources and ignores them (for example in the articles al-Farabi and Seljuq dynasty), he even creates alternative articles to already existing ones. That's what he did here. Although the article al-Biruni exists and has a very good shape, he created a second one only for the pupose of claiming him Turk. He also falsified the article Ulugh Beg, again claiming that he was a Turk (while Britannica 1911 says something different: ). Simply calling Ulugh Beg a "Timurid" (that was the name of his dynasty) is the best and most neutral solution. User:Polysynaptic registered on December 30th, but he is no new user. His edits are extremely biased toward and based Pan-Turkism, he is deleting sources, ignoring scholastic sources, and he falsifies sources. I believe that he is a sockpuppet of some other (banned) user. Maybe of User:Moorudd whose IP was blocked last week because of racist insults against Iranians: . And he is again at it: . Checkuser has confirmed that the IPs are those of User:Moorudd: . The edits of Moorudd and Polysynaptic are very similar: Moorudd vs. Polysynaptic Some admin should help out.
I then (on the anon user's page) posted a request for them to report it to the sockpuppet report page, along with a suggestion that they register. On my page, I received the following response.
- Thank you for your comment. Yes, I will probably register. But I would appreciate it, if you report him this time so I can learn how to do it. I will be off Misplaced Pages for a few days, then I will (maybe) register. Thank you very much for your help.
To be honest, I don't know a great deal about sockpuppetry, and so would be useless in investigating the case. Could someone please investigate it? StephenBuxton (talk) 13:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Keeps posting nonsense editing
82.29.5.197 keeps posting non factual and is being rude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thevardonrushes (talk • contribs) 14:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well he's posting unsouced, that's not the same as unfactual although it is getting to the stage of being a slow burning edit war. Can you provide diffs of him being rude please? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 14:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- here are the only things he's said on this IP, which I think are a long way from being actionable beyond WP:CIVIL advice. He's a new editor, so I've left him a "welcome" so he can familiarise himself with our policies. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 14:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
List of attacks by ASALA
I am growing tired of this. The article documents list of attacks by ASALA. I have worked on it in peace for the past 1 year in a rather slow pace.
Very recently User:VartanM showed up to remove sources. This so far had been his entire contribution. User:Andranikpasha, the person VartanM mentors, had showed up roughly the same time Penwhale placed VartanM on A-A 2's restriction which he later explained as "this". Andranikpasha was placed under a 6 month revert parole by Thatcher.
User:Folantin and User:Meowy also very recently appeared out of nowhere on the talk page to support the removal of these sources. They do not appear to be outside parties based on their other contribution.
These 4 people mentioned here are insisting that I cannot use Turkish Governmental sources to cover the content in the article - yet they are refusing to cite a single source to the contrary nor are they disputing any of the actual content. They seem to be complaining for the purpose of complaining which constitutes as a WP:POINT violation. People seem to be trying to game the system from time to time as well. For example these diffs imply that these people try to drag people under Armenia-Azerbaijan restrictions by gaming the system.
Issue has been to /Arbitration enforcement before. But they seem to be unable to address the issue as their maneuverability is quite limited with the two arbcom hearings. Also any discussion there at /Arbitration enforcement on this matter almost instantly turns into an irrelevant flame war. This also seems to be a method to game the system.
-- Cat 16:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly did not "appear out of nowhere" on that page. I had it watchlisted from March 2007 when I and other editors struggled to make you comply with Misplaced Pages's policies on WP:RS and WP:EL. You were quite happy to source material from a well-known hate site TallArmenianTale as the talk page archive shows (the very archive which you yourself created only a few days ago). --Folantin (talk) 16:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- White Cat's talking bollocks. His behaviour on this article has been most unsatisfactory - he will not accept that some anti-Armenian bile-filled websites are not reliable sources and should ergo not be linked to. It's time to ban him from all articles relating to Armenia, loosely defined. He's got a long history of POV-pushing in this area: see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek and in particular this finding. Moreschi 17:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Are you saying I am pov pushing for listing attacks commited by ASALA? No one is disputing these attacks had happened. The source is well within WP:RS. It is a governmental source for crying out loud.
- The quoted arbcom case has expired some 1.5 years ago and has no bearing whatsoever on the case here. If I cannot even use governmental sources on ASALAs attacks no one is disputing, what can I use?
- Ban me? For WHAT? What have I done constituting a ban? Had I added propoganda? No. Not by a long shot. Had I removed other peoples comments on talk pages? Not at all. Had I revert wared on multiple articles for the purpose of revert waring? No. That is the behaviour committed by some parties involved who only received a warning. Some did not even receive such a warning. I had not had any real edits to Armenia related articles for the past 1.5 years (or more). Even this article isn't Armenia related. It is merely the list of attacks by ASALA no soul is disputing.
- User:Andranikpasha and User:VartanMs entire contribution to the article is revert warring and the removal of sources.
- -- Cat 17:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Even when the "sources" are part of highly offensive, genocide-denying hate sites? Come off it. Your contributions to anything Armenia-related have been consistently awful. Moreschi 17:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- How is the Armenian Genocide thing even relevant to ASALA attacks which had taken place well over 5 decades later? Sorry, I do not see a connection. -- Cat 19:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- "Even this list isn't Armenia related"? A list of attacks by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia? --Folantin (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Even when the "sources" are part of highly offensive, genocide-denying hate sites? Come off it. Your contributions to anything Armenia-related have been consistently awful. Moreschi 17:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Moreschi, once when I was a newbie I added a problem to ANI and ArbEnforcement pages at the same time. You deleted my double adding and blocked me indef. for "nationalist editwarring". Are you going to do the same thing with White cat now? Sorry but see all my answers at ArbEnforcement. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Except you weren't a real newbie, I think. The past is now irrelevant, anyway. Moreschi 17:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Again double standards? what you mean by "you weren't a real newbie"?? and if cat is surely not a real (?) newbie so what's the reason you dont stop him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andranikpasha (talk • contribs) 18:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Honestly, what do you think I'm trying to do? Have you not read my comments above? As regards the rest, see . Moreschi 18:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link on "rest":) It seems to be a different case. i dont know if anyone says I wasnt a newbie at English Wiki... so lets be more civil while sharing our personal opinion, ok? thanks in advance! Andranikpasha (talk) 18:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Honestly, what do you think I'm trying to do? Have you not read my comments above? As regards the rest, see . Moreschi 18:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Again double standards? what you mean by "you weren't a real newbie"?? and if cat is surely not a real (?) newbie so what's the reason you dont stop him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andranikpasha (talk • contribs) 18:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- White Cat's gone forum-shopping and is now trying to start Armenia-Azerbaijan ArbCom 3 - and all because he can't be bothered to go down the library and find some reliable, scholarly sources. --Folantin (talk) 17:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Imagine that! Going to arbitrators, our most trusted users, to "forum shop" aka violate policy... This is gaming the system. Really. -- Cat 20:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- White Cat's gone forum-shopping and is now trying to start Armenia-Azerbaijan ArbCom 3 - and all because he can't be bothered to go down the library and find some reliable, scholarly sources. --Folantin (talk) 17:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed topic-ban
White Cat has a long history of vexatious editing on Armenia-related articles, usually pushing an Armenian Genocide denying agenda. See the lengthy tales of this at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek. Recently he went back to Talk:Armenian Genocide with more tendentious time-wasting, before the thread was moved to Talk:Armenian-Turkish relations. On this list in question he's edit-warred against consensus, and comments from User:Picaroon and myself, to keep links to sites that include bile-filled material (see here, the current talk page threads, and for a specimen of the material in question, see...well...any of the links from here). White Cat has deliberately tried to stir up trouble: he's gone back and forth from ANI to AE (and IRC) canvassing for his viewpoint purely to piss off the Armenian users involved (even without his attempts at aggravation, said links are not reliable sources). His disruptive editing on articles relating to Armenia has gone on for too long. A topic-ban is necessary. Moreschi 18:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Strongly endorsed given White Cat's long and tendentious history of edit-warring over Armenian topics. --Folantin (talk) 18:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- How can you be endorsing something when you are an involved party? Over what edits am I banned for? For using governmental sources? This has gone beyond ridiculous. -- Cat 18:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well here is a thought. Perhaps we could permit editing with certain restrictions on what can be linked, perhaps a mentor could vet links, and maybe civility parole or something of that nature. Something a step down from a topic ban. Can mentorship as a community placed remedy be useful here? Thoughts? M-ercury at 18:49, January 4, 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 18:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Restrictions are over which edits? -- Cat 18:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- White Cat didn't know who to turn to since VartanM hadn't told him that he was Andranikpasha's mentor and the mentorship wasn't logged anywhere for White Cat to see. How exactly are people supposed to react when they discover that the mentor was the person edit warring right next to Andranikpasha? I think White Cat's concerns about unfair play here are somewhat warranted. EconomicsGuy (talk) 19:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, EconomicsGuy, VartanM ended to be my mentor earlier, in November 22, 2007, after an admin removed my name from the list of users "placed under supervised editing" . The other info about me represented by White Cat is also not correct, for example I wasnt placed under revert parole by Thatcher, its not true! Andranikpasha (talk) 20:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- My understanding from your block log is that mentorship was the condition for your unblock. Your initial block was for being a disruptive SPA. The community (not ArbCom) agreed to an unblock conditional on this mentorship. VartanM confirmed on WP:AE that he was your mentor when he was confronted with this just a few days ago. He subsequently noted that the mentorship had ended then on the list of imposed restrictions (VartanM deserves credit for doing that). Also, it still doesn't explain how mentorship can possibly have worked when the mentor and the person being mentored edit wars side by side. I think White Cat has a valid point about that, regardless of the content dispute. EconomicsGuy (talk) 20:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I dont know what means "your understanding" (sorry, I prefer Wiki rules) but I know better what means "be removed from the list of users placed under supervised editing". So lets to not change the topic which is not related to my "mentorship" but radical POV-pushing by Cat. Andranikpasha (talk) 21:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- sorry, I prefer Wiki rules So do I. Rule number 1: Do not edit war and then complain about another editor's alleged POV pushing. Read WP:KETTLE, you might learn why I have a hard time taking a complaint about POV pushing from an edit warrior seriously. EconomicsGuy (talk) 21:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- "alleged POV pushing." Its not alleged but confirmed even by admin Picaroon and many other users included me at the talk. A deletion of extremal hate-site on Armenian Genocide denial propagand is not a editwarring. And please, lets discuss anything related to me not here (this chapter is dedicated to Cat), but here . I think I already answered to your questions there. Thanks in advance, Andranikpasha (talk) 21:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is no need to. Your rethoric and the fact that you are hiding behind an admin comment in what you claim to be a content dispute illustrates perfectly what the problem here is and why it is a good thing that ArbCom plans to review all these cases. Good luck when the time comes for that, I'm sure you'll need plenty of it by then. EconomicsGuy (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- "alleged POV pushing." Its not alleged but confirmed even by admin Picaroon and many other users included me at the talk. A deletion of extremal hate-site on Armenian Genocide denial propagand is not a editwarring. And please, lets discuss anything related to me not here (this chapter is dedicated to Cat), but here . I think I already answered to your questions there. Thanks in advance, Andranikpasha (talk) 21:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- sorry, I prefer Wiki rules So do I. Rule number 1: Do not edit war and then complain about another editor's alleged POV pushing. Read WP:KETTLE, you might learn why I have a hard time taking a complaint about POV pushing from an edit warrior seriously. EconomicsGuy (talk) 21:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I dont know what means "your understanding" (sorry, I prefer Wiki rules) but I know better what means "be removed from the list of users placed under supervised editing". So lets to not change the topic which is not related to my "mentorship" but radical POV-pushing by Cat. Andranikpasha (talk) 21:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- My understanding from your block log is that mentorship was the condition for your unblock. Your initial block was for being a disruptive SPA. The community (not ArbCom) agreed to an unblock conditional on this mentorship. VartanM confirmed on WP:AE that he was your mentor when he was confronted with this just a few days ago. He subsequently noted that the mentorship had ended then on the list of imposed restrictions (VartanM deserves credit for doing that). Also, it still doesn't explain how mentorship can possibly have worked when the mentor and the person being mentored edit wars side by side. I think White Cat has a valid point about that, regardless of the content dispute. EconomicsGuy (talk) 20:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, EconomicsGuy, VartanM ended to be my mentor earlier, in November 22, 2007, after an admin removed my name from the list of users "placed under supervised editing" . The other info about me represented by White Cat is also not correct, for example I wasnt placed under revert parole by Thatcher, its not true! Andranikpasha (talk) 20:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I know evidence from 2005 is irrelevant, but its interesting that after 3 years White Cat is still pushing the same POV. Only this time around his not a newbie anymore. VartanM (talk) 01:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Content dispute, is it really?
Here I am using Turkish government as a source for attacks on Turkish government employees (diplomatic personnel) by ASALA. The information provided is not disputed by anyone involved. Because of the age of the attacks linking to Newspapers of the era and such is very difficult. For that I am been proposed a topic ban.
Imagine using US sources (media, government, non-profit organizations such as MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base) to cover the activity of Al-Quida or other organizations US sees as "terrorist". Now "terrorist" is a word to avoid on Misplaced Pages but not on the sources we use. US is of course very biased towards Al-Quida but that does not disqualify them as a source.
I really think Turkish government is more than an acceptable, reliable, and verifiable source. If the validity of the information is in dispute, that should be complimented by reliable sources. No one has done this.
-- Cat 21:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The Turkish government is not, to put it gently, considered a reliable source on matters of Armenian history. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Central Intelligence Agency
Grateful for some eyes over the recent activities by Travb, here. Seems like a wholesale destruction spree on some recent work improving the CIA article, removing or improving some of the conspiracy theory stuff and improving the coverage using a portfolio of articles. In particular his response to my cleanup here suggesting that it is POV vandalism.
Given previous experience it would be useful to have some independent views of the activities.
ALR (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- First, this is clearly a content dispute and as such it doesn't belong on AN/I. Second, just on the face of it it makes sense to me to keep treatment of the CIA on the CIA article. Your diff, as you didn't note, is actually to the article CIA activities in Africa. Unless you intend to create a CIA infobox with links to all of the various CIA sub-articles, then I think an AfD is warranted (rather than a redirect). 19:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. However my previous experience is that Travb does not discuss content and given the wilful removal of material across a portfolio of articles it needs some eyes-on to identify the best way to deal with it. Nonetheless, thankyou for your comments.
- ALR (talk) 19:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Agree its content based. I created a nav-box at the bottom, and I've been working with the editor who created most of the sub-articles to tailor his controbutions to our style. We've made progress and survivied an AfD on one of the articles. Some re-namings are probably in order, but I don't think deletion via redirect is the right way to handle things. MBisanz 19:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I've blocked 68.89.131.187 (talk · contribs) for impersonating Travb (talk · contribs) on Talk:Central Intelligence Agency. Review and eyes on the article are welcome, given the extent of this IP's participation under a false signature and their edits to the main article. I'm holding off on reverts to see if Travb logs in under his account. Acroterion (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- And now Travb's logged in. I'm done for the evening, and will look in in the morning. Acroterion (talk) 05:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Can an admin please unblock IP 68.89.131.187?
- Acroterion is involved in this content dispute, and commented on the talk page against my edits. The rules state that an admin should not block other editors who he/she is involved with in a content dispute. Acroterion demanded that I log in, which I did. Acroterion knew that I was back online as travb but retained the block.
- I have no delusions that Acroterion will be repremanded for abuse of his administrative powers.
- The other comments are irrelevant here on WP:AN/I. The main editor and I are working it out ammitably and calmly on the talk page. The main editor of CIA seems like a really nice guy. Trav (talk) 06:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
User Sia34
I seem to be having some difficulties with this user in the Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-12-14_Persian_Gulf mediation. While mediation can be difficult at times, I am wondering why this user feels the need to be uncivil, making personal attacks on me simply because I (politely) disagree with his assertions. The user appears to be a SPA based upon his contributions thus far to the community, and thusly, I have tried to point out that we focus on the edits, and not the editors, all without success. The personal attacks (1, 2, 3) seem to be escalationg in both frequency and incivility. Additionally, the user has actively sought out a meatpuppet to support the filing of an RfC, presumably an attempt to eliminate me as a voice of dissent in the Persian Gulf mediation discussion.
Any assistance in helping to calm this user down would be both helpful and instructive. - Arcayne () 19:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Zello555 - serious vandalism problem with quattro (all wheel drive system)
I have placed a warning request in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Automobiles, but I feel something needs attending to as a matter of urgency.
Either the above user needs blocking, or the page in question needs some kind of restricted editing status, as I have had probably three days work completely trashed by User:Zello555 - who never actually responds to any questions of fact. Regards -- Teutonic Tamer 20:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I don't think this is vandalism per se but a content dispute. That said, YouTube is pretty clearly not a reliable source here, and I left a message to that effect on the article talk page and restored the older version of the article. Let's see if Zello555 is willing to work on finding better sources. I don't see a need for blocks, protection, or other administrative action at present. MastCell 20:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm . . . I would say it is vandalism, but I'll bow to your better judgement. The reason for my particular stance is that I questioned Zello on the validity of internet forums and similar sources. I've already mentioned that I am a highly qualified Motor Vehicle Engineering Technician, and have spent my entire life working on four wheel drive vehicles. Furthermore, I quoted a specific text book, complete with ISBN number, which clearly confirms my stance. Zello repeatedly ignores my request for him to examine said text book, and instead, waits 'til I work on other stuff to repeated post factually incorrect information. The quattro article in question is absolutely based on engineering fact, and has no place for hearsay or mis-information. If mis-information is allowed, then it simply reduces the efficay of the encyclopaedic nature of this site! Rgds, -- Teutonic Tamer 21:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said, I think you're correct on content/sourcing. The vandalism thing is largely semantic in this particular context. If he edit-wars to reinsert the poorly sourced material, that would conceivably be a case for administrative action. Otherwise, it may be more effective to have other interested editors weigh in on the article talk page. MastCell 22:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Outside eyes and admin review requested: Strider12 (talk · contribs)
This is actually more of a plea for help. I previously raised the issue of Strider12 (talk · contribs) at AN/I here. Briefly, this is a single-purpose account with a clear conflict of interest, dedicated to editing the disputed entity of post-abortion syndrome and promoting its main proponent, David Reardon. My previous AN/I post centered on his tendentious editing, canvassing, edit-warring, constant combativeness, etc. There was discussion from outside admins of a topic ban vs. a week's block, but nothing came of it.
Since that time, Strider12's behavior has continued, with the following new wrinkles:
- Proposing a massive rewrite of WP:WEIGHT to serve his needs (, ), along with forum-shopping his dispute at WT:NPOV ()
- Tendentious editing of WP:NPOV itself:
- Turning his usertalk page into a "sandbox" consisting of a POV fork of his "preferred" version of Post-abortion syndrome article. He has helpfully titled his user-talk page version "An Unpurged Work in Progress" and writes: "I do not want any of the POV pushers who are into purging verifiable information to alter this draft. This draft is only for those who truly wish to collaborate on an objective article... I have mostly concentrated to date on inserting missing material rather than cleaning up some of the nonsensical inferences which appear to have been inserted by high school students or Planned Parenthood interns."
- In response to the issue of conflict-of-interest, avoids question and suggests that other editors are paid employees of Planned Parenthood, NARAL, etc ().
- Continued edit-warring, most recently resulting in the protection of post-abortion syndrome (which has never before been necessary in the history of this contentious article)
- Continually denigrates the New York Times Magazine and PBS as "clearly pro-choice" and biased (), while simultaneously addding material sourced to priestsforlife.org or other highly partisan pro-life newsletters for "balance" ().
- Outside opinions have been solicited in this RfC; they pointed up Strider12's issues with soapboxing and tendentious editing.
I'm asking for anything here: outside eyes on the affected articles, administrative review, whatever. Personally I feel that this is an editor with a determinedly uncollaborative approach (as evidenced by the usertalk page fork), tendentious habits, a conflict of interest which they are unable to surmount (while describing other editors as sockpuppets or Planned Parenthood interns), disrespect for WP:OR and WP:WEIGHT, and violations of WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLE. The article needs to be improved, but it's impossible with a single-purpose tendentious agenda warrior operating unrestrained. I think that a topic ban is warranted, but at this point I'm mostly tired of banging my head against this particular wall and would welcome any and all outside input. Please. MastCell 20:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The article draft on his talk page is a definite problem. I've told him that it should be moved to a subpage, and that I'll do it for him if he doesn't know how. (Left implicit is that I'll do it for him if he fails to understand the need.) We should also help this editor with his difficulties understanding WP:CIV, WP:NPA, and so on. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I hope that's possible. My concern is that he's already had extensive feedback from uninvolved editors, RfC's, and even editors explicitly sympathetic to his POV (, ) - all to the effect that his tactics are unconstructive. He's ignored all of that feedback, choosing to ascribe it to sockpuppets, Planned Parenthood employees, and the like. I'm not sure what else will get the message across. MastCell 22:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- (cutting in) Raymond Arritt, I have already told him before how to create a sandbox. Although his response was hostile, he does have a sandbox at his user page. Check his talk page history. миражinred 23:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I second the call for administrative review, outside eyes, ect... However I do so from a different perspective. I feel that there is frustration with one of the particular articles in question David Reardon and that frustration extends to BOTH sides of the dispute. I believe that the article as written is NOT WP:NPOV and there are serious problems with WP:WEIGHT and WP:BATTLE and I believe that these issues extend to the opposite side of the dispute as Strider12. I believe outside intervention and mediation to develop consensus on the talk page would be a welcome and refreshing at this point. There must be a way to make the article fit with WP:NPOV. The situation as it currently stands is completely unacceptable. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
- The article certainly needs to be improved. I'm not talking about content per se here. What I'm saying is that it is essentially impossible to make real progress with a heavily tendentious single-purpose account dedicated to promoting the article's subject sitting on it. Mediation only works with good-faith editors whose primary interest is improving the encyclopedia. I don't see how mediation is going to succeed with an editor who, 500 edits and innumerable warnings in, still can't restrain himself from ascribing all opposition he meets to Planned Parenthood employees and "abortionists" dedicated to "purging" the article of his chosen sources. Look at his user talk page - he's created a content fork from which he explicitly disinvites anyone who doesn't share his extreme POV. Mediation is not what's called for. MastCell 22:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- We are in complete agreement that the article needs to be improved. I cannot speak for Strider12 here, but I suspect that the frustration felt stems from a perceived bias and violation of WP:NPOV in the current editing. I believe that the user sees the article as slanted from a pro-choice perspective. Much of that is listed on the talk page for the article. Is there not a way to bring independent 3rd party eyes to the article and talk pages and develop consensus? If so, why do we do that? Are you suggesting that the user will not under any circumstances work with independent editors to develop consensus? Why not see if it will work? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
- On reviewing the article and talk pages, it's clear that Strider12 doesn't understand WP:SYN, or has chosen to ignore it. The article is supposed to be about Post-abortion syndrome as such. What he's doing is assembling a bunch of journal articles that discuss consequences of abortion for the woman's health -- which do not discuss post-abortion syndrome as such -- and then using those to build a case that the syndrome exists. It's a common mistake of novice editors, and an especially common mistake of novice editors that are on a mission to disseminate The Truth. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- We are in complete agreement that the article needs to be improved. I cannot speak for Strider12 here, but I suspect that the frustration felt stems from a perceived bias and violation of WP:NPOV in the current editing. I believe that the user sees the article as slanted from a pro-choice perspective. Much of that is listed on the talk page for the article. Is there not a way to bring independent 3rd party eyes to the article and talk pages and develop consensus? If so, why do we do that? Are you suggesting that the user will not under any circumstances work with independent editors to develop consensus? Why not see if it will work? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
- (@ Ghostmonkey57) I am saying that Strider12 has made it clear that s/he will not under any circumstances work with editors whose POV disagrees with his/her own (). As to ways to bring in independent eyes, yes - a content RfC was filed on post-abortion syndrome. The responding independent, 3rd party, outside editor came to the conclusion that Strider12 "has a clear POV that you so far have not been able to control. You're not here to improve the quality of the article or work with others towards balancing both sides. You're looking to steer this article in one clear direction in order to make sure your point-of-view is the one most prominently represented." As you're heavily involved in editing these articles, you no doubt saw it. Similarly, User:The Evil Spartan, explicitly sympathetic to Strider12's POV, warned him several times about his tactics to no avail. The question is really how many outside opinions we need to solicit before accepting them. MastCell 22:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I can only speak for the David Reardon article. I've not made a single edit on the post-abortion syndrome article, and I have no plans of editing there. My comments are limited explicitly to the David Reardon article. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
- Contrary to MastCell's assertion, I have repeatedly tried to work with people and have made clear my intent to not blank other peoples' contributions. I also object to many of her characterizations of the issues above. As just one example, she misleads when she says I am pushing a biased source by referencing priestsforlife.org. I wasn't referencing a propaganda page from priests for life or even a commentary. It just happened to be the first site I found that had a copy of Surgeon General Koop's letter and it was linked solely so readers could read Koop's letter. Rather than simply finding a more neutral site with Koop's letter, MastCell supported editors in blanking it so that readers are deprived the chance to easily find what Kooop wrote in it's entirety. Perhaps I erred in not realizing earlier that while pro-choice web site references are allowed, pro-life ones are verbotten, even if they only include the text of a Surgeon General's letter much cited in this article. That is just one example of how MastCell's allegations above are half-truths designed to paint me as the the problem rather than his own POV pushing.
- Also, I clearly object to the characterization that I am the source of the problem when MastCell and others continue to delete veriable information simply because it goes against their POV push. Take two clear examples. They correctly cite Stotland as asserting in a commentary that abortion trauma is a myth. A fine quote to underscore the controversy. But they also keep deleting references to Stotland's subsequent article in 1998 in which she describes her own experince with a case of significant delayed post-abortion trauma. Why this objection to balance.
- Another example, a chief issue of this article is about PTSD and abortion. And I provided a very recent study from South Africa looking exactly at PTSD scales following abortion. And almost immediately the reference was edited to remove all the information about PTSD and to make it appear that it was only discussing anaesthesia options.
- I have repeatedly told MastCell and others that I am open to collaboration, but collaboration means INCLUDING verifiale information that people contribute to an article and INTEGRATING those contributions into a smooth whole. Deleting material in toto is simply not acceptable, nor is the excuse that "my group of experts" reflect the WEIGHT which justifies my deleting your studies and experts acceptable.
- The ironic part is that MastCell's weight argument hinges on two articles (Adler & Stotland's) that are over fifteen years old, and these are used to blank out any number of studies and articles published in the last seven years.
- Per Raymond's suggestion, I've looked at WP:SYN. I disagree that I am violating the principles described. But it is a principle being violated by many other editors. In fact, I try very hard to comply with the style advocated in the SYN piece in the example of Jones. For example, including Stotland's subsequent opinions, as noted above, is clearly relevent and not a synthesis of new ideas...just a fair reflection of her ideas.
- Further, given the hostility of several editors to peer reviewed studies by Reardon, Colemen, Rue, Cougle, Shuping and others (as evidenced in their openly discussed purging of these "unreliable" sources...even though published in peer reviewed journals), I haven't even tried to referance these verifable sources in preference to showing that even self-identified pro-choice experts do not agree with the general denial of post-abortion emotional complications which permeates this article. In other words, I'm trying to demonstrate where the WEIGHT of expert opinion really lies and I've invited MastCell to produce more evidence of the WEIGHT besides her old peer reviewed articles and her three recent popular media articles which are clearly advocacy driven. I've not advocated for the removeal of these sources, even though I think they have little weight. I've only been attempting to include other material that has at least equal, if not more, weight. It is this that MastCell and other appear to oppose. They seem to dislike the fact that there are literally scores of experts, studies, and reviews which prove that the WEIGHT of opinion is not where they have been insisting it lies.--Strider12 (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- You want more evidence of where mainstream opinion lies, beyond the "old" peer-reviewed articles from Science and JAMA, the position statements of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association, and the 3 recent mainstream-media pieces (from the New York Times Magazine, PBS, and Washington Monthly), all of which you dismiss? Do you see the problem here? MastCell 23:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with Strider12's comments. Calling other editors "Planned Parenthood interns or high school students" is certainly not an attempt to work with other users constructively, not to mention that responding to another editor with "Thanks for stalking me." certainly goes against WP:CIVIL. миражinred 23:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Strider12's behavior is troubling, and the attitude displayed on his/her talkpage and in the article draft does seem to indicate that this user has no real interest in abiding by the various policies governing user behavior. Calling the draft the "unpurged" version, for example, is making quite an insulting statement to anyone who edited the article Strider12 doesn't approve of. Natalie (talk) 00:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with Strider12's comments. Calling other editors "Planned Parenthood interns or high school students" is certainly not an attempt to work with other users constructively, not to mention that responding to another editor with "Thanks for stalking me." certainly goes against WP:CIVIL. миражinred 23:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Advice on Potential Sock...
I'm fairly certain that User:Wahoo4u is a sock of User:Americanconsumer...there's another potential sock being used, but it's only made one edit that doesn't seem that harmful (and for all I know, could be the guy's actual name). It seems like he's pretending to be a third party editor (the American Consumer Institute was created by the admitted president of the company). Within 30 minutes after the president was informed that the page needed to be edited by a neutral editor, Wahoo4u registered an account and appeared with the edit summary "2nd Contributor, revised, and added external links to Fox TV to this article". His "revision" was removing the COI, Unref and Wikify tags on the page, wikilinking a random word (standardized). Today he made this edit to the AfD on the article claiming to be a UVA student who had done a project on this organization and made a little bit of a bad faith accusation "It seems like there is more than careful gatekeeping going on here ...". --Smashville 20:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Probably a sock, definitely registered specifically to !vote in the AfD. You've already tagged with {{spa}} at the AfD; I added the {{afd-anons}} template. I'd suggest waiting for the AfD to close and tagging any more brand-new accounts which show up to !vote. Depending on the outcome, if the apparent sock accounts prove disruptive or abusive after the AfD closes, they can be handled. If the article ends up being deleted, then it may be a non-issue. MastCell 20:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry at AFD
There seems to be sockpuppetry at this AFD. I think Pennyfan87, Rcartwr and Dharrels are socks of Mhudson3. If so, can someone block all 4 indef and remove their Keeps at the AFD. D.M.N. (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've blocked one of the accounts, Pennyfan87 (talk · contribs), as they essentially indicated they were solely here as a meatpuppet for an AfD (). The others also appear to be meatpuppets, but I'm going to leave them unblocked for the moment assuming they don't edit the article disruptively. They are best tagged with {{spa}}, as has been done. The closing admin will take into account their status, but it's not necessary to remove their notes IMO. MastCell 22:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Gkleinman
- Gkleinman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Commercial username for Geoff Kleinman and the companies he found or owns, dvdtalk.com and xcritic.com. It is a single-purpose account used to promote himself and his companies. He consistently inserts links and references to his websites into unrelated articles despite repeated warnings to the contrary that it is against WP:SOAP and WP:COI. He also posts under the ip, User:24.21.183.177. Vinh1313 (talk) 21:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Edit war over multiple articles
Osli73 (talk · contribs) and Grandy Grandy (talk · contribs) are edit warring over a large number of articles, reverting each other and calling each other vandals. Corvus cornixtalk 22:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- It looks like a case of them falling out somewhere and taking it personally. They should be told not to approach each other if they can't act maturly.--Phoenix-wiki 22:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
@OSLI73 is the one who starts edit wars and other examples of vandalism:
- 12:23, 5 December 2007, Stifle blocked Osli73 (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours (Three-revert rule violation: Bosnian Mujahideen)
- 07:45, 24 July 2007 WikiLeon blocked Osli73 (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 1 month.
- 07:37, 24 July 2007 WikiLeon blocked Osli73 (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 3 months.
- 02:26, 23 March 2007 Thatcher131 blocked Osli73 (anon. only, account creation blocked, autoblock disabled) with an expiry time of 2 weeks (violating revert limit on Srebrenica massacre see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Kosovo)
- 01:48, 1 March 2007 Jayjg blocked Osli73 (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 2 weeks (violation of arbcom revert parole on Srebrenica massacre again)
- 09:48, 18 December 2006 Srikeit blocked Osli73 with an expiry time of 1 week (Sockpuppeteering and directly violating his arbcom probation and revert parole)
- 00:49, 5 September 2006 Blnguyen blocked Osli73 with an expiry time of 96 hours (did about 10 reverts on Srebrenica massacre in about 2 hours)
Sometimes he is signed in, sometimes he is not, but he vandalised the articles all the time. Do smth! --Grandy Grandy (talk) 22:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to clarify that I have not called Grandy Grandy (talk · contribs) a "vandal". I have, however, reverted his deletion of tags and clearly WP:POV and WP:OR edits which he is not willing to discuss or seek mediation for. I realize it's inappropriate and I'll stop immediately. It's just so very frustrating dealing with these types of editors...Osli73 (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I would also like to clarify that I will stop it, but @OSLI73 obviously won't. The others called him a vandal as you can see from his block log: * 09:48, 18 December 2006 Srikeit blocked Osli73 with an expiry time of 1 week (Sockpuppeteering and directly violating his arbcom probation and revert parole).--Grandy Grandy (talk) 22:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Block and ban needed
ElectricEye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has come out of "retirement" to harass Theresa knott on her talk page (starting with the fifth comment down in this thread). In May of 2007 EE changed their talk page to read, "Electric Eye has withdrawn his support of Misplaced Pages and has joined the ranks of those who oppose it." (diff of user page change and link to user page). He/she has continued to reiterate this point to anyone who leaves a message on his talk page. As of this writing, they have also begun commenting on Jimbo Wales' page (diff). Intimidation, harrassment, whatever you want to call it, coming from someone who has "joined the ranks" of those who oppose WP (whatever that means) demonstrates that they do not need an account here and should (imo) be blocked if not permanently banned. Thank you, R. Baley (talk) 23:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Notification of this thread here and here. R. Baley (talk) 23:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Too late; I blocked him while you were leaving the messages. Happy new year, TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good call IMO, TenOfAllTrades. This alone seems like a pretty good reason to block, as you mentioned on his talk page. That statement is a fair warning that the user was going to be disruptive. - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, I would like to request that you reconsider and unblock EE.
- This whole incident is making a lot of people upset. A lot of people on all sides are being uncivil and snippy with each other. None of this is good. ElectricEye was not doing good things. But he was doing not good things in response to stuff that he saw Theresa Knott doing on the Arbcom case which was also not good.
- No warnings were left for EE that his behavior had crossed the line into abusive enough for user behavior sanction until I did just a bit ago, right before you blocked.
- Blocking in this instance without warning and trying to calm the situation down is likely to lead to more drama, not less. Many involved parties in many parts of this dispute have been warned or asked to calm down by several people now. Please extend drama-reducing civil behavior requests rather than blocking as a first response. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I told him what he was doing was harassment here. And respectfully, I would disagree with your assessment whether I had left one (of sorts) or not. R. Baley (talk) 23:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and the one edit EE made after that warning was still confrontational, but much more civil. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I told him what he was doing was harassment here. And respectfully, I would disagree with your assessment whether I had left one (of sorts) or not. R. Baley (talk) 23:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- After that, he went to Jimbo's page to spread it around. I would strongly object to any unblock. R. Baley (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I seriously don't think he is upset. Because unless he is a sockpuppet, and I don't think he is, he is completely uninvolved. Check his contributions. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 23:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- You weren't directly involved in the Jimsch62 / VO / OrangeMarlin case either, and look how you ended up feeling about it, Theresa...
- The case is making a lot of people crazy, both what happened and how everyone is responding to what happened. This is really bad. Arbcom members are explicitly leaving civility warnings on arb case talk pages, several relatively uninvolved people are asking people to calm down, etc.
- I don't honestly see what he did on your talk page as worse than the worst you did on the case talk page.
- You have acknowledged and responded to requests to calm down; I think we owe him (and everyone else) at least one round of the same courtesy and chance to stop the problem behavior. Even if they are mostly uninvolved in the project now, they haven't been trolling elsewhere that I know of to establish that they are in fact operating just in bad faith, so we need to AGF there (and elsewhere, about everyone involved). Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I ended up, after mutiply tooing and froing quite angry. That's not the case here. He's trolling. But if you want to unblock him and block him later I don't care to be honest. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 00:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- He opposes Misplaced Pages and there is no evidence to suggest that any contributions he makes will benefit the project. He is trying to stir up further trouble with the arbcom case and is simply trolling. I would support a ban at least for a while - maybe he will return with a positive attitude, but running to Jimbo and trying to cause trouble is in no way useful. violet/riga (t) 00:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- (scratching head) Surely you didn't just imply that we should ban people for complaining to or appealing to Jimbo... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Nope. We ban people for stating that they have "joined the ranks of those who oppose" Misplaced Pages, and follow through on that statement for most of a year, and then start the new year coming out of nowhere to be an Arb gadfly and to bother editors who are interested in contributing to Misplaced Pages. Really, if there were any evidence at all that this individual were interested in adding to the project I might have given a warning—but I just don't see that evidence. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- For most of the last year, they weren't editing at all. Is there behavioral evidence off-wiki somewhere I need to be made aware of? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Obviously not - that wasn't the only thing I said in support of the block. violet/riga (t) 00:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Nope. We ban people for stating that they have "joined the ranks of those who oppose" Misplaced Pages, and follow through on that statement for most of a year, and then start the new year coming out of nowhere to be an Arb gadfly and to bother editors who are interested in contributing to Misplaced Pages. Really, if there were any evidence at all that this individual were interested in adding to the project I might have given a warning—but I just don't see that evidence. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
George I think it would be fair to say at this point that you are unlikely to get the agreement of the blocking admin or to get concensus that unblocking is the right way to go. Which leaves you with a choice, you can choose to go it alone, or defer to the judgment of the multiple people who who think the block is good. If you choose to go it alone, and he reoffends you'd better be willing to block him yourself sharpish . But if you are willing to do that, and take the risk that he will disrupt when you are not around and so people might think you were foolish to unblock then go for it. I've unblocked people unilaterally before, usually stating on thier userpage that I am staking my own reputation on thier good behaviour. This sometimes works as the unblocked person doesn't want to let you down. Other times they can't help themselves . Anyway it's not that big a deal either way.Theresa Knott | The otter sank 01:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
block and protection needed
In resent days there is attacks to this article. Plesase protect the page from IP-users. --Ilhanli (talk) 23:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please make requests for page protection at WP:RFPP. However, even though I am not an administrator, I would say that there isn't enough recent disruption to protect the page. Also, in the last couple days, only 2 different IP's have edited it, and in the last 8 days, there have been 3 different ones. If a user is actively vandalizing, then report them to WP:AIV. Thanks, - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that while the vandalism is unfortunate (btw this edit might be vandalism too), I don't think there is enough vandalism to warrant disallowing new and unregistered users to contribute. -- lucasbfr 00:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Technical administrative question, and request for advise/action
If a user opens an account, but then edits without logging in, and violates several Misplaced Pages's rules for which the IP address gets block, can he then log back in to his previous account and continue to edit, or will the blockage of an IP prevent him/her of logging in to the account created prior to the blockage?
I am asking this because 201.218.79.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), making spurious claims that Argentina is a developed nation rivaling European countries, after being reverted, violated WP:3RR (he has reverted by three users, but he kept on reverting 8 times); developed a theory by engaging in WP:OR at Talk:Argentina#Developed country, was warned by three users to stop, and his account was blocked for a 24-hour period. A few hours later Cocoliras (talk · contribs), using the same arguments (and even claiming that the ideas of "dual economies", originally pushed by the anon user, were his ideas), reverted the article once again. Not only has he used the same arguments, but he has the exact same history of edits (focused on Argentina, North America and Panama City. (Please review their history of contributions). The anon user also engaged in an edit war and violated 3RR in North America, and Cololiras is repeating the same pattern of behavior there too.
I was considering making a notice of possible sock puppetry, but I wanted to make sure that technically it is possible to log in to a previously opened account before the blockage of the IP. (Although it is also possible that the user is logging in from different location; the pattern of behavior is strikingly identical). He has been continuously reverting a perfectly sourced statement, and inserting his own OR and claims without proof, even after being asked by three users to stop reverting. Please advise. --the Dúnadan 23:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- If the block on the IP is "Anonymous only", the registered account can edit. Little trick: You can put a full block and see if the account (or someone else) complains ;). -- lucasbfr 00:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I am not an administrator in the English Misplaced Pages, so I cannot put a full block. Did you review their identical pattern of edits? Should I open a case of WP:SOCK, or is their pattern evident enough to see that Cocolira logged in to circumvent the block and continue reverting and POV-pushing? --the Dúnadan 00:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Advice
I would like an administrator's advice on how to deal with Ghanadar galpa on the Communist Party of India (Marxist) talk page. I have tried to point out problems with the sources he is using to support his anti-CPM POV, which he regards as the "truth". However, his behaviour is quite aggressive, confrontational and uncompromising. He has now accused me of being a part of "a well-funded group of propagandists and Bengali supremacists employed by the Communist Party of India, paid and financed by the CPM gangsters to persistently whitewash their record on wikipedia." It is difficult to know what to do in such a situation. If he thinks that anyone that disagrees with him is hired by the CPM, then I don't think it bodes well for any meaningful mediation. I am unclear what the "referral for comment" procedure entails. Is this in addition or complementary to discussing it on this noticeboard? Is this noticeboard the first place to raise these issues?--Conjoiner (talk) 00:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Might also want to look at the well-sourced ] section that Conjoiner and his drive-by revert buddy Soman are desperately trying to remove
and then using numerous interesting epithets, right before making disparaging remarks] about peer-reviewed sources and trying to discredit them, even after their peer-reviewed status has been independently attested by the British Journal of Sociology.Ghanadar galpa (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Reisio
This user is continuously refusing to accept the consensus established against the inclusion of his own Pantone-based version of the Flag of Italy (see Talk:Flag of Italy for details), featuring gray-white instead of bright white, despite he is the sole supporter of its inclusion and many other users made him note Pantone colours are for textile flags, and not computer-based depictions, thus disrupting Misplaced Pages to "illustrate" his point. I tried to deal with him with words and even protecting the article, which I just unprotected after I was sure a consensus was reached, but all I obtained was an ArbCom threat for mine. Can some other admin please deal with him? Thanks in advance. --Angelo (talk) 00:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is an ongoing problem; Commons has its own episodes. More discourse and name calling exist. 哦,是吗?(O-person) 00:55, 05 January 2008 (GMT)
Rouge Admin abuse by user:Future Perfect at Sunrise?
I want to report that I have been, what I perceive to be, the subject of long term assumption of bad faith and paranoia by self described WP:ROUGE admin user:Future Perfect at Sunrise (also known as FPS). I had joined in June 19. Immediately, banned user user:NokhchiBorz had accuse me of being a sock of user:Buffadren to which FPS had said
Hi, yes, it might well be the guy is a new Buffadren/Mauco sock. I don't yet see enough evidence to go on for a block, but we'll keep an eye open.
At this point I had been posting for maybe 3 days the number of posts you could count on your fingers and already he was monitoring me and assuming bad faith in believing that I may be a "Buffadren/Mauco sock"!
I had tried to calm him down my posting to his talk page and introducing myself but no response from him.
A few weeks later, a sock of banned user and arch sockpuppetier user:Bonaparte vandalized my user space. FPS blocked him but did not revert the sock puppet tags that the vandal had put on my user page. Perhaps believing that they belonged.
A few weeks later still. An IP sock of arch sockpuppetier user:Bonaparte had started up a Request for Checkuser on me. FPS then helped this banned sockpuppetier complete the checkuser request. He also blamed me for sparking an edit war which I absolutely did not do.
At this point I had tried to reason with FPS numerous times to no avail so I decided to wait and let the dust settle and hope that he would chill and I went forward with adding content to the project. Most recently, I tried to make a peace offering and a request to put all of this behind us which FPS rejected in what I perceive as a terse response.
Part of the reason I bring this up is that everytime I have a minor dispute with another editor, that editor brings up the fact that an admin believes me to be a sockpuppet of William Mauco.
I demand that Future Perfect at Sunrise clearly state what he needs from me to end what I considered is this long term assumption of bad faith and paranoia. Under no circumstances will I give up my privacy. Once this is met, I demand that he apologize. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
user:Future Perfect at Sunrise's block of user:Britlawyer
When FPS had helped banned user user:Bonaparte file a checkuser against me. I had noticed another user user:Britlawyer which FPS had checkusered against user:William Mauco and had turned out unrelated and from different continents. Future Perfect had banned this user regardless of the checkuser results saying that he is a likely sock of William Mauco. I believe further scrutiny is required to look at his actions then and his continuing actions. This raised concerns by admin user:John_Kenney (read here). FPS responded to John_Kenney in that link:
This wasn't an easy decision for me either. Anyway, I looked pretty closely at the precise temporal patterns of account creations and edits by Britlawyer, Mauco and his other known socks. I consider that data pretty damning (I can forward it to you). Checkuser isn't magic pixie dust as they say, and we can safely assume the people behind the Transnistrian astroturfing campaign (which undoubtedly exists) have means of concealing their puppetry by using geographically diverse proxies; they only get caught occasionally when they slip. Just look at how Buffadren passed through multiple checkusers seemingly clean, and then suddenly was revealed to have been on MarkStreet's IP after all.
It looks like he is putting more faith in his sleuthing abilities than the checkuser. I for one can say that if his conduct towards me is any indication, his sleuthing skills need improvement. I recommend that this block as well as his actions be given more scrutiny.Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I must agree that the account creation and edit patterns just scream sockpuppet, and that a checkuser cannot be used as "proof of innocence" (editing from a proxy is trivial enough). I can't tell whether FPS is correct, but he certainly seems to have been reasonable. — Coren 01:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Possibly so but did it warrant a block? I have posted a request on John Kenney's page and I await what he has to say about this. I also think that some of the principles from this arbcom descision might also apply here. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Just to add, my reason for posting this block is that we know that false positives do occur and since FPS is wrong about me he could also be wrong about others. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have a hard time assuming good faith from anybody who comes here demanding anything. Corvus cornixtalk 02:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pretty please with sugar on top, could everyone not get caught up on semantics and WP:AGF and also Misplaced Pages:Assume_the_assumption_of_good_faith on my part and address my concerns. Thanks Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Britlawyer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) was blocked in May. Am I missing something here? --B (talk) 03:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- It was in may. I posted it here in order to have a look at possible incorrect long term admin behaviour and possible overzealousness. Which I believe I have also been subjected to. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Britlawyer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) was blocked in May. Am I missing something here? --B (talk) 03:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pretty please with sugar on top, could everyone not get caught up on semantics and WP:AGF and also Misplaced Pages:Assume_the_assumption_of_good_faith on my part and address my concerns. Thanks Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not a fan of admin FPS, he was one of the people who asked my ban during Transnistria arbitration (proposal rejected by arbcom), but I consider legitimate the checkuser he asked regarding possible conection between User:Pocopocopocopoco and topic-banned user User:William Mauco. Generally speaking, is nothing wrong to ask a checkuser if there are suspicions. Mauco was proved as an malicious sockpuppeteer and the checkuser didn't gave relevant answers regarding User:Pocopocopocopoco (the answer was "stale" - is bad that after the arbitration case the checkuser data regarding William Mauco were not kept). I wonder why this sudden demand of an apology for a checkuser asked long time ago and which had no relevant answers (that mean nobody can tell that the suspicions were wrong). To be mentioned that yesterday a ban evasion by User:Buffadren (banned in the same Transnistria arbitration like Mauco) was discovered, and FPS blocked the IP used for ban evasion, I wonder if it was not this fact who suddenly made Poco angry.--MariusM (talk) 04:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I care not about Buffadren or Markus Street or whatever other socks that person has used. If it was proven that he was an astroturfer then he deserves to be banned. I am not angry, just determine to put an end to this issue of FPS's suspicions against me. The reason I bring this up now is, as I stated, whenever I get into a minor dispute with another editor, FPS's beliefs that I may be Mauco are trotted out by that editor and I want this to end. This has been occuring on an ongoing basis and has occurred recently (diffs can be supplied if requested). The other reason that I bring this here is that I was not able to resolve this by communicated with FPS on his talk page recently. I clearly stated that I would try to address his concerns if he would communicate these concerns. He did not present me with any way to get to a resolution on this issue with him. I have no problem with the fact that he ran a checkuser but I have a problem with the entire pattern of suspicion that hasn't even been put to rest even now and I have a problem with the fact that he seems to be basing all of this from the allegations of banned users (NokhchiBorz and Bonaparte). Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, this was ages ago - I barely remember it. I remember that at the time I thought it was questionable to block a user when the check user suggested that they were not a sock puppet - and perhaps Future Perfect acted hastily. But I would imagine it's quite likely that s/he was right nonetheless. I'm not even sure what to say about this - there does seem to be a fair amount of Transnistrian sockpuppetry going on, but the Romanian side is hardly much better. It's all a fetid fever swamp, really. john k (talk) 05:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly vandalism
87.158.121.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has made five edits in his first day here. They're not necessarily inaccurate (well, the one to Antisemitism is), but they fit the description of what I think people used to call Jew-baiting. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Save Us 229
Resolved – Admin attention isn't necessary here.I suspect this user of being a sockpuppet master. Having followed correct procedure and placed a template on his Talk page, he subsequently removed it. MegX (talk) 01:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- And then what?....I think they are allowed to remove those notices. You've done everything right: Made a SSP report and notified the user. No admin attention is needed here. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Also, please AGF until a checkuser is completed. Your comment on the mailing list about this wasn't really appropriate IMO. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Guess what, per WP:UP, I can remove any content I like from my userspace. And I'll tell you something else, I only use one account, please someone run a checkuser if they see appropriate. — Save_Us_229 01:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- You added a "resolve" template without no public discussion with the admins. MegX (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is nothing for the admins to do here. This will be resolved someplace else: Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Save Us 229. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- We don't need any CU's - it's User:Moe Epsilon - he's quite clearly stated that many times before, and given he's also stated he no longer users the account, there's no sock issues here. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Notice for MfD
(general comment) There is a discussion at MfD relevant to this topic for those who care to weigh in link. R. Baley (talk) 02:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Request for Comment regarding the administrator, R. fiend
Per the discussion yesterday here at Misplaced Pages:ANI#User:R. fiend using his admin privileges questionably, please note that a Request for Comment has now been filed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/R. fiend regarding the alleged misuse of this editor's administrative tools. Anyone is welcome to comment there - Alison 02:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Copyright issue on Wall Street Spin
I reverted some external links on this page and the user has expressed concern on Talk:Wall Street Spin regarding their copyright over this boardgame. Would someone competent with copyrights help this user please or let me know where to direct them. Regards.--12 Noon 02:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are notability issues as well, and I have made a start. Meanwhile, I have left a note on the user (actually owners of this game) on their talk page re spam & COI, and will get back to this later. There is no need for admin action at present, copyright issue is not pressing. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 03:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Concerns of admin abuse by Nihonjoe
User:Nihonjoe created the article Youmex, a now defunct anime and music production company. Another editor tagged it for CSD.. Even though he was the creator of the article, Nihonjoe removed the CSD tag rather than letting another admin decide it. The editor who tagged it sent it to AfD instead. In the AfD discussion, Nihonjoe has shown some borderline uncivil behavior in his interactions with other editors. While the AfD is going towards a keep consensus, the sources themselves were questioned by the original nominator as well as other editors in the AfD. To address the issue, I checked all of the sources and found most were just the word Youmex appearing on a store page or as part of the catalog number, clearly not reliable sources. I cleaned up the article to fit what was verifiable through reliable sources, and added another reliable source for some additional titles. Nihonjoe reverted the redo, proclaiming his version had correct sources. I reverted, because what was removed was unreferenced and said so in my edit summary. Nihonjoe removed again, with the edit summary of "What the hell are you talking about? You REMOVED several references, please stop doing that, I'm working on the article right now, and your reverting is making that difficult". I undid, again, and tagged his user page for adding unsourced material and to ask him to work from the revised version rather than an old version. He removed the warning with the edit summary of "You're full of it, as I said, and I'. I reverted again (unintentionally as vandalism) as he continued to refuse to source the original research and personal views that he was adding back, or to explain how his "sources" were reliable.. In response, he protected the article with the note "To stop the stupid reverting by Collectonian )."
He also created a redirect for Futureland (record label) to go to Youmex. I CSDed it as an improbable typo (and his providing no reliable source that Futureland was, in fact, a part of Youmex. He removed the CSD even though he was the one who created the article, claiming that anyone can remove a CSD even the creator, even though the CSD notice specifically says otherwise.
To me, an admin who runs around un-CSDing his own articles and protecting as article he created so only he and other admins can edit it (even if he has, currently, kept it at the cleaned up version), is abusing his power. His attitudes with other editors in this case and seeming ownership issues with some articles is also appalling for someone with administrative powers. Collectonian (talk) 04:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I understand your consern, and I am experiensing a similar situation with an admin in my category of expertise. But User:Nihonjoe has done a lot of work for the cumminity, why not give him a bit of latitude and see how things go? Igor Berger (talk) 04:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- His long experience and seemingly over all good edits are the main reason I brought here instead of RfC. Collectonian (talk) 04:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- First of all, anyone (including the creator of an article, whether or not they are an admin) can remove a legitimately invalid CSD notice (thought it's not recommended, but WP:IAR applies here, I think). If it is removed, then there's obviously a dispute over it and it should be taken to (in this case) TfD. Until Collectonian came along, all the concerns raised in the AfD discussion had been addressed (including my concerns that someone would AfD an article less than 24 hours after it was created when it was obvious someone was working on expanding it).
- Collectonian then proceded to remove all of the references for various items in the article without any legitimate reasoning, and without regard for the subject of the article being a very difficult one for which to find online resources. The only legitimate concern was a little bias I had included in the article based on my personal experience and knowledge of the company. After it was pointed out, I specifically reworded the article to remove that bias, but Collectonian abused Twinkle to revert my edit without any reason (nothing in the edit summary at all, other than the fact he'd used Twinkle to do it and that he considered my edit to be vandalism). Collectonian claims that the information in the article which he removed was unreferenced, though that is clearly untrue.
- I then protected the article (specifically at the version I did not want, and to prevent Collectonian from abusing Twinkle further) so that no one would edit it further as it was obvious that Collectonian was going to revert anyone else who edited the article to something other than what he wanted.
- The messages I removed from my talk page were rude and uncalled for (especially since they were obviously intended for people brand new at editing—Collectonian himself has only really been editing for the last 4-5 months despite having an account open since 2004).
- As for the Futureland redirect, it's a legitimate disambiguated redirect which is being used by several related articles. ···日本穣 04:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I removed a bunch of references that didn't actually support anything in the article. You can't just throw in some links and try to call them references if they don't support anything. Anyone can remove a PROD, not a CSD. The removed information was not referenced. Most of the lists of titles you gave were not even mentioned in any of those references, and several of the "references" did nothing more than have the word youmex in a catalog number or somewhere on the page. Your references were invalid hence their removal.Collectonian (talk) 04:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- All of the references you removed were either referencing a specific item or contained lists of Youmex titles. None of the lists contained all of the titles, but together they listed all or most of them. As I've pointed out over and over, the company has been defunct for almost ten years (an eternity on the web), and finding online references is difficult. It is very likely that one or more of the magazines I have has an article about Youmex, but I haven't yet catalogued all of them yet (it takes a lot of time to catalogue an entire magazine, let alone hundreds of them). All of the sources you removed were legitimate. Nothing I did was abusive (concerned, yes, and perhaps a little heated, but not abusive). You complete ignoring of legitimate sources, and use of Twinkle to enforce your opinion is abusive, however. ···日本穣 04:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- All references don't have to be online. I added sources from one of several english language anime encyclopedias, and I suspect some of the other ones may also provide much better information as they do span multiple years. You did abuse your powers by removing a CSD from both an article you created and a redirect you created. A CSD is not a PROD and even if you felt it was not valid, as the article creator, you should never have removed them, but left it to an administrator who was not personally involved to make the decision. Regular editors who remove a CSD from their own articles are warned quick fast and in a hurry. Do you feel that because you are an admin you are somehow immune from the rules or being warned? Collectonian (talk) 05:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Collectonian, anyone can remove a CSD tag, and it is really improper for you to have been using Twinkle to edit war with an administrator who was in the process of writing an article. There was no reason to revert when content was being added that had references. The last version seemed to have several sources, but you tacked on that the edits were vandalism. I'm not sure if this is something you have to work on, or something that needs to be removed from the Twinkle script, but I can see no improper activities by Nihonjoe here, other than protecting a page he was working on.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Um, what? Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion pretty expressly prohibits an article's creator from removing its CSD tag. Of course, IAR wouldn't let that translate into preventing the removal of plainly invalid CSD tags, or are you explicitly disagreeing with written policy, in general? Someguy1221 (talk) 05:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- If that is true, then the CSD template needs to be rewritten because it says very explicitly that the article creator should NOT remove a CSD, but put a {{hangon}} tag with an explanation of why they feel the article should not be deleted instead. Collectonian (talk) 05:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, after reading that, it looks like I was mistaken in that one instance. However, it appears that I'm not the only one to be mistaken in this regard as Ryūlóng also wasn't aware of that. Regardless, it was an abusive use of the CSD system to nominate the redirect (and the article itself), and at least those who abusively used CSD are now actually discussing the issue rather than incorrectly nominating something for speedy deletion which obviously doesn't qualify. ···日本穣 05:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
IP Address 212.51.199.173
212.51.199.173 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Rjd0060 (talk) 04:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
This person is constantly editing sections of the Republic of China article that have a notice saying that those sections are not to be edited without a consensus on the talk page. His edits have been undone by other editors at least 4 times. Can he be banned or blocked or something (as he/she seems to be keen enough to avoid 3RR)? Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 04:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, no, you should try actually talking to him first. Leaving him vandal templates is only going to confuse a user who's apparently acting in good faith. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
ONGOING SOCKPUPPETRY CASE - IMMEDIATE ATTENTION REQUESTED
There is an ongoing sockpuppetry case at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Artisol2345. This request for verification involves the account of User:AL2TB as the suspected sockpuppet. There have been previous disruptive edits by this user, and now the user is attempting to game the system by having the puppetmaster account, User:artisol2345, deleted. As a last-ditch effort, user AL2TB has replaced the deletion tag, after it was removed upon guidance from the tag its self, and from another admin by myself. Please see the following diffs for the progress of events: DELETION TAG REMOVED, DELETION TAG REPLACED, AND BACKDATED. This user is now circumventing policy to meet their own agenda. The case, and this incident in particular, needs your immediate attention. Thank you. Edit Centric (talk) 04:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well at the very least, realize that deleting a userpage does not delete the account itself. The contribs will still be very visible. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's not the contribs that need to be preserved at this point, it's the evidentiary content of the userpage and talk page, in direct relation to the SOCKS case. Edit Centric (talk) 05:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- And even if the user page were deleted, any admin that is reviewing the SSP case can view the deleted page. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Any any event can be undone, so there's never reason to panic. If you do start panicking, it can be a good idea to step back and think about something else for a while. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- And even if the user page were deleted, any admin that is reviewing the SSP case can view the deleted page. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's not the contribs that need to be preserved at this point, it's the evidentiary content of the userpage and talk page, in direct relation to the SOCKS case. Edit Centric (talk) 05:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, deleting the user page will not effect the SSP report in any way. I've left User:AL2TB a note about re-adding PROD tags though. Thats a no-no. Other than that, I don't see where administrator action is needed. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- The tone of the puppetmaster is kind of dangerous, if not even delussional, be careful and keep an eye out, can be a stalker. Igor Berger (talk) 05:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, cool beans. But just for reference, how much longer until the SOCKS case gets tended to? It's been sitting stale a few days, with no apparent actions taken... Edit Centric (talk) 05:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- It varies. I see it's been nearly a week. I'd guess it will be soon. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- From all appearances, Artisol2345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) stopped editing on October 25, and then was accused of using a sockpuppet on November 13 and blocked for a week. (I have no idea who the sockpuppet was or what he was doing, though. That's where it would help to have some warnings in the record. Maybe the sockpuppet was an IP address.) AL2TB (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) started editing on December 4. For the life of me, I can't see what is disruptive about what AL2TB is doing. I can see some friction between him and some of the editors in the highways project, but the highways project has always had a lot of friction between its editors. I can't figure out why you're looking for immediate attention from administrators when it isn't exactly obvious what behavior is being disruptive. "Friction and conflicts with other highway project editors" doesn't equate to "abusive sockpuppetry" unless you spell out exactly what the connection is. --Elkman 05:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay. Artisol2345 last edit was October 26 - verified. Per userpage, at the top there is a link to the list of suspected and confirmed sockpuppets. Recently, AL2TB has jumped into the midst of an edit war that WAS part of the whole Highways project deal. (Yes, I'm also keeping a weather eye on that situation too, as I'm also a USRD and CASH editor, on hiatus from editing those articles until the current RFAR is settled.) There have been other issues with AL2TB, some that have caused a few of our eyes to be raised. I examined the similarities between accounts, and those results are posted in the SOCKS case. The immediate attention was requested solely to address the replacement of the PROD tag. I should have been more specific, and I apologise for not being so. Edit Centric (talk) 05:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Something strange happened to the database lock notice
I got:
{| style="background: none;" |- | valign="top" | Database locked | The Misplaced Pages database is temporarily in read-only mode for the following reason: The database has been automatically locked while the slave database servers catch up to the master This is probably due to routine maintenance; if so, you will be able to edit again within a few minutes. We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused. You can continue to browse Misplaced Pages articles while the database is locked. For further information, you can visit the #wikipedia channel on the freenode IRC network. |}
on Ilia II for no reason. I don't mind maintenance locks, but someone should check whatever MediaWiki: page is responsible for that message and correct the box formatting. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 05:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's odd. The page for it is MediaWiki:Readonlytext, which hasn't been edited in over a year. Anyway, this is the sort of question for Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical). Someguy1221 (talk) 05:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Very odd. I didn't have that problem, and saw that page quite a few times within the last 10 minutes. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
3RR help needed
Would someone have a look at the history of Talk:James I of England and help User:Law Lord understand why we use section breaks on talk pages when dealing with very long discussions? I can't seem to get him to understand and he keeps removing the section break six. -- ALLSTARecho 05:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- You're seriously edit warring over the position of an arbitrary section break on a talk page? You both need to stop. Mr.Z-man 06:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- And why this needs "3RR help" remains a mystery for the ages. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Time for a new rule. Do not abuse 3RR. Igor Berger (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- And why this needs "3RR help" remains a mystery for the ages. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Edit warring or reverting vandalism? Indeed, a mystery. -- ALLSTARecho 06:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think they mean that this issue sounds like it belongs more at WP:AIV or WP:AN/3RR, but thats just my random guess. MBisanz 06:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Abmin abuse Pats1
I hope I am going in the right direction now, I was in error a coupple of times and then cut and pasted here. I was informed by an upper-Admin (I htink) that I may have reported somehting in the wrong area. The note from (talk) was cut and pasted with the rest. . . .
Here is my concern is a user: Pats1 twice threatend me with being banned without explanation. I may have been at the prompting of a user: chrisjnelson. I detected a possible familiarity with them. There was, I thought, a legitmate mistagging of trivia. There where three users who looked like they had a kind of history of being unkind. I had asked for a dispute resolution the best I knew how . . . After that occurred Pats1 came in and said I was doingsomething that was wrong --- he put in in his warning . . . and I thought it was mistaken. When I saw the second one I saw he was deadly serious. I then researched how he was supposed to handle things and what the rules were, especially with the power to block and in my view, I think he was in the wrong. I don't think I deserved that kind of meaness and what I think may have been a possible abuse of his Admin power. All I ask is to be treated fairly. I have not been perfect before, butonce I learned there are rules, I became confident this kindof abuse wouldn't occur.
Maybe I was wrong to assume that. It seems Pats1 had only been a Admin for a couple of months and maybe that kind of "bullying" has worked with others, but I like to edit and I think I have some things to offer and would not want to be banned inappropriately. It is scary to think that a person who may have had a connection to chrisjnelson would just jump and threaten a ban with hardly the time to investigate. It really seemed like an abuse of his "banning power". That is my view.
After all, this was a dispute. One that had occured a couple? of days ago and it was discussed. Then there was an attempt to bring in the "bigger guns" and all along, I was simply disputing the tivia tag. It is my view that Tivia is discouraged, but if you read the objectors chrisjnelson and others. . . it was the content the objected to, not the style. In the Tivia instructions there is a section "What this guidline is not". It is that I think is right.Nonetheless. when I was warned it was not for 3 RR as Pats1 NOW claims in my talk page. It was for essentially deleting portions of an article, which was never true. I removed a trivia tag I thought was in error. I also looked at the track record of chris and the others and in that Ted Ginn, Jr. article he even was pretty non-wiki friendly to another poster about things. So, I was dubios of those who objected to the content. It was almost like trying to misread to Trivia guidelines. But, I cannot be sure.
I didn't like being treated badly, espaiclly when I was following rules the best I could and since there is a record of what was done I think you can see that Pats1 overstepped his authority when he didn't give the correct reason for a potential band, made it seem to me it was to be punitive for perhaps defying him. He wouldn't communicate, well, until he knew I was serious about going "over his head", as it were. Only then did he try to explain and that was about as insulting as anything else.
So, I was hoping for an explanation and an apology but it has gone too far. I don't feel safe in editing with a person whose actions are so drastic and terse. I just don't think it was needed and I think you might want to reviewthis case, In fact I ask you do do that. Thank you.72.0.36.36 (talk) 06:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
72.0.36.36 (talk) 04:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I note Pats1's edit summary : "(There isn't any "dispute" here. Trivia sections, no matter what they're named ("Notes" or "Personal" or whatever) are "to be avoided" unless temporary, when they're tagged to be inserted in prose.)" seems a little erroneous: There is no policy saying they are to be removed, & this does not justify a total removal of the material. The place for this, though, Is AN/I. DGG (talk) 05:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)