Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:57, 16 March 2008

Use of ambiguous prefixes

A few days ago I tried to introduce an unambiguous explanation of terms like MB. Rilak reverted the changes, making the text ambiguous again. After that, the following discussion took place at Rilak's talk page:

Rilak, I gave you a good reason, which is to explain to the reader the meaning of the terms KB, MB, GB. In what sense is that silly?. Thunderbird2 (talk) 13:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to explain a universal meaning. There are hundreds of computer related articles with KB, MB, GB and so far there are no complaints, with the exception of media such as hard drives, about what the units mean. As stated by editors before in discussions concerning other articles, you are more likely to confuse readers with two alternate units. I also belive that Misplaced Pages does not use IEEE binary prefixes in any circumstances. For the record, I personally support IEEE binary prefixes and I use it myself when I can, but not when I confuse others or violate MOS. Rilak (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

In what sense is it confusing to provide an unambiguous definition? And what part of MOS would it violate to do so? Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of unambiguous units is encouraged by MOSNUM, and the megabyte is named explicitly as an example of a unit requiring disambiguation. What do others think? Should we leave these ambiguous units unexplained? Thunderbird2 (talk) 09:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I am ambivalent as to whether they need to be there, but if they are there, the associated value should not be repeated (i.e., "256 KB (256 KiB)" should be "256 KB (KiB)"). Having the value twice IS confusing. VMS Mosaic (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

MOSNUM is very clear on this point. The relevant text reads:

Specify whether the binary or decimal meaning of the units kilobyte, megabyte and similar is intended.

I think VMS Mosaic's suggestion of 256 KB (KiB) is a good way of satisfying this requirement. Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Why the sudden interest in this particular article? I don't see an effort to append other computing articles with IEEE binary prefixes. Additionally, provide a quote from MOS that explicitly states that editors should do what you do. From what I read, the units used are KB, MB, GB and so on. Rilak (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have already quoted the most relevant MOSNUM text. The megabyte and its cousins are ambiguous and MOSNUM requires us to disambiguate. Why should this article be exempt? Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide the exact line number, not a summary? I can't find it in MOSNUM that states it explicitly. Also, I did not ask for this article to be except. Instead, I should be asking why should other articles be exempt, because as of now, this is what it looks like. This article, I would assume, would not receive much traffic due to it's subject. Articles such as this one are much more heavily viewed yet I cannot find any instance where an editor has appended MiB after MB. Rilak (talk) 15:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what line number it's on, but if you follow the link and search for "kilobyte", you'll find it.

The article to which you refer contains the following disambiguation footnote:

A gigabyte of memory means 1024 bytes, i.e., 1 gibibyte

Would you prefer that format? Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If the Mac Pro article is acceptable because MB is linked to MB, then why add another dimension of confusion into the article when you could have simply linked the term to its article? Units that have the potential to confuse should be linked to their definition in their appropriate context, not by adding ten zillion different but equivalent units, eg. 1 MB (also 1 MiB and 1 My-Own-Preferred-Unit-for-1,024-kibibytes...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rilak (talk • contribs) 17:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The megabyte article starts by pointing out, correctly, that the megabyte is an ambiguous unit. The MOSNUM requirement, which is to explain which of the two (or three in the case of MB) definitions is intended, is therefore not met. It seems to me that there are two serious alternatives: One is to use MiB; the other is to explain (where appropriate) that 1 MB = 1024 B. Can you suggest a better way? Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If binary prefixes are used, then others will remove it, as there is no consensus to use binary prefixes in any situation (this is from I have been told and from what I have observed) so what improvements you have made will not be long-lasting. The most appropriate method is to add a note somewhere to define KB = 1,024 bytes and so forth. Rilak (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, a footnote would be fine. I don't agree that "there is no consensus to use binary prefixes in any situation". The consensus is that they should be used only when we are sure the MB is used in its binary sense, as in this article. I have invited comment from MOSNUM, so hopefully we will have some other opinions soon. I suggest we wait 24 h before changing anything to give others a chance to comment. Do you agree? Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

A footnote is acceptable and I will wait for further comments for 24 hours. I have to admit, I have not heard of a consensus to use binary prefixes when the context uses KB/MB/GB in a binary sense. Rilak (talk) 17:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the thing to do is to disambiguate with a different method that is also allowed by MOSNUM? For example "256 KB (256×2bytes)". Fnagaton 18:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the "consensus", MOSNUM is clear on this matter where it says "There is no consensus to use the newer IEC-recommended prefixes in Misplaced Pages articles to represent binary units." Fnagaton 18:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

(unindented)

• All: MOSNUM can be a little like the Bible or the Koran: you can often read what you want into it. Note however, this exceedingly practical policy on MOSNUM at #Which system to use:

I would argue that Misplaced Pages should observe whatever practices are observed by the best paid-subscription computer magazines. I am a Mac owner, subscribe to MacWorld, and routinely visit a huge number of Mac-related Web sites—usually daily. I must profess that I haven’t lately perused Windows-oriented magazines so I can’t purport to being an overall authority on computer jargon across all platforms. For instance, the Unix or Linux crowd may be much more precise than Windows/Mac magazines. Having covered myself now with caveats…

I encountered the term “kiB” the very first time on Misplaced Pages. I correctly surmised it must have had something to do with clarifying the ambiguity with binary and decimal math but had to click the linked unit of measure to figure out which one it meant. I submit that Misplaced Pages should always follow common practices and not attempt to lead—regardless of the field or article. It takes more than a proposal from an organization like the IEEE to make something an effective way to communicate; the proposal must be widely adopted so the term is well recognized by the intended audience. If scientists in the field of gravimetry routinely use a unit of measure called the gal, then Misplaced Pages articles should (and do) use than non-SI unit of acceleration in related articles. If Misplaced Pages didn’t, we would be undermining the fundamental objective of technical writing: to clearly communicate technically oriented information to the intended audience with minimal confusion. Sometimes, we just live with certain shortcomings in units of measure. For instance, the International Union of Pure and Applied Physics once proposed that expressions like ppm (parts per million) be replaced with a new unit called the uno. Notwithstanding that it was arguably a great idea, it was not widely accepted and the principal proponent of the idea withdrew it. Note that the necessary virtue—and the one that was missing with the uno—is “widespread adoption.”

In a nutshell, I am unclear about MOSNUM policy on kB, MB, GB, etc. However if there is a MOSNUM policy that, in an effort to remedy ambiguity, calls for the use of terms that are unfamiliar with the typical reader who would be visiting any given article, then we should fall back to MOSNUM’s one, extremely wise policy that requires adoption of the term that is used in current literature on the subject. If Misplaced Pages finds itself leading the charge in an effort at correcting an ambiguity when most other publications have not entered the fray, then perhaps the “ambiguity” is more of a perception that a real problem. If “kiB” is well recognized by the Unix community, the Misplaced Pages articles on Unix topics would be well advised to use “kiB”. And if the term is not well recognized among general-interest computer users (and computer advertisements, brochures, owners manuals, and packaging) then Misplaced Pages should use whatever terms are common there. This anyway, is my 2¢ on the subject. Greg L (my talk) 20:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)