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Template:PD

• Discussion moved to Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Template:PD

TTN, again.

AE link -- . — Rlevse • Talk • 11:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

(If it matters any, make note that I have a long-standing account but I prefer to not to use it on Talk pages and the like.)

Even though TTN left for a while due to getting put on probation, he's recently returned with the same "holy cause" attitude he's had before. Despite being barred from making any redirect or merge-related edits, TTN's gone on a tagging and "trimming" adventure in the last few days, and while he's as annoying and forceful as ever that isn't the problem I'm bringing up. As seen here he's also getting other users to do his abrupt redirections and merges for him and from the way it sounds, as soon as his probation's up he's going to be pulling the exact same actions at the same pace that got him in trouble in the first place. It's really maddening, and I'm not sure anything can be done about him. - 4.156.24.213 (talk) 04:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Notified both editors. Is there any particular edit you have a problem with? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I looked into this and object to this sort of thing. Its evading the Arbcom sanctions by asking other users, on and off wiki to do things he is prohibited from doing. MBisanz 05:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? The problem was how he was doing it, not what he was doing. If an editor chooses to behave in the manner that TTN was censured for, then that is their choice, and appropriate action will be taken. Performing/requesting redirects/merges is a regular editor activity. seresin ( ¡? ) 05:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I gave TTN an open offer to do this myself, and I stand by it. The rationale is simple, a user, such as myself, would evaluate his request, and if it doesn't seem valid, we don't do anything. If it is valid, it doesn't matter who suggested it. This is no different from TTN making the same exact suggestion on the talk page, which he is allowed to do. Unless we have a problem with the judgement of the user he's asking, there isn't an issue here. -- Ned Scott 05:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

And to give further context, this is a user that was already considering this. TTN and the user were discussing the matter, and TTN said "Per the arbcom case, I can't even place merge tags until like August or September, so it would have to be you. I'm in no rush, so you can take whichever course of action you wish to take. " In other words, "if you want to merge them, you'll have to be the one to add the tags because I'm not allowed to". I don't see anything wrong with that. -- Ned Scott 05:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

To give further context, yes the wording is neutral but TTN knows and you know how you'd interpret such a 'neutral' request. All this does is reinforce the view that TTN still thinks he has done nothing wrong at all and is merely sitting this out until starting again. The post could be considered bordering on evasion of an arbcom restriction given the context and people involved and as such should be placed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you really think that the outcome of the Arbcom case would be that every bad article would suddenly become immortal? TTN is far from the only person that believes that TTN did little to nothing wrong, and that means that there is still going to be a drive to remove these things. I don't see anything here that violates his Arbcom restrictions.Kww (talk) 06:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

To quote TTN: "You could just try redirecting it, and if it's only one or two anons reverting without summaries, it would just be fine to revert and ignore them. If any of them become vocal or an actual user jumps in, then some other method would probably have to be used, though." Fun little game I guess. ArbCom here we come. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh gosh, and here's another friendly request...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't this really belong at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement again (yes, I'm aware that one was just closed 24 hours ago). I'll informed the user who closed that one how they feel. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Sigh, I really don't want to see Episodes and Characters 3, but if they do start proxying for him due to his "banned" status, I don't see any other option. Can someone please make the drama go away? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I have undone sguerka's redirect without discussion of Meowth per Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, how petty can you people be? It should be obvious that these are requests and suggestions. I haven't ask "Hey, can you go tag all these articles?" or "Can you go put all of these up for deletion?" I have told one person that an article would be better off merged, asked someone to finish a forgotten merger that they agree on already, told one person that they would have to set something up themselves, and asked some one, at their own discretion, to re-redirect some articles (out of over 150 for reference) that had already been through some sort of discussion. There is nothing malicious in anyone's actions besides the people complaining. TTN (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

You're under sanction, banned from redirecting articles, suggesting that others do the work you are unable to do per the arbcom sanction is attempting to circumvent the ban you are under.... It isn't pettiness, it is the conditions you found yourself under due to the problematic behavior you undertook even after being chastised by the arbcom the first time around. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what TTN has done wrong. He's following the Arbcom ruling, and making editing suggestions. TTN has every right to engage in talk page discussions. He is not a banned user, and to describe him as such in order to justify blind reverting is disingenuous at best. The Arbcom ruling didn't say "any edits where TTN was involved in the discussion can be reverted on sight". Neıl ☎ 09:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Neil here. Especially since Sguereka would've done it without TTN. Sceptre 10:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This argument does not hold any water. Sguereka had not re-redirected these articles until he was asked to do so as a proxy of TTN today. Perhap TTN isn't officially banned, but he is in spirit. If he was to do this sort of redirection, he'd have been treated in the very same way a banned user would be if that user was circumventing his ban. Arguing the semantics of his restriction seems somewhat silly, but I will not revert your reversion at this time. (No use fanning the fire of this continuing drama, afterall.) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, TTN is not banned officially, nor banned in spirit. This is not an issue of semantics; it's very important to be clear on this, as "banned" has connotations and implications that do not apply to TTN. He is not banned, he is restricted from merging/redirecting/deleting episode articles. He has not even edited episode articles. Nor has he requested merges, deletions, or redirections. This thread has, therefore, very little purpose other than to air old grievances. Neıl ☎ 11:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have serious qualms about the Meowth redirect, notably the fact that it was opposed on the talk page for anyone that looked. I too don't agree one bit with TTN's actions: effectively he can puppeteer users to do what he's banned from and that should be "okay"? You'd be better off just cutting out the middle man and letting him do it himself if you're going to go that route. And last I checked that wasn't the option on the table. A comparison would be an AFD discussion: we aren't allowed to go to users and say "Hey, this article is under fire could you please post a keep vote if you think it should stay?" That violates a blatant rule and we all know it. So how is this any different?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Do I need to quote the ArbCom statement? The ruling states he cannot merge/redirect or delete articles relating to TV shows or characters. It also states he may not request any of the preceding. He has done none of these things. However, the ruling states " is free to contribute on the talk pages or to comment on any AfD, RfD, DRV, or similar discussion initiated by another editor, as appropriate." Neıl ☎ 12:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you missed his request to sgeureka to re-redirect a number of character articles then, Neil, because he did precisely what you say he didn't. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 12:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Kyaa, I did indeed miss that () - this is expressly against the Arbcom ruling (my apologies). The appropriate place for this to be reported is Arbcom enforcement, that way. I will add a comment to the thread you have already started there. Neıl ☎ 13:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

At the very least I can point out the Meowth redirect ended up violating what you cited Neil, given that the article covers in part the character's anime counterpart, meaning it affected an article on a TV character.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 12:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Sguereka had not re-redirected these articles until he was asked to do so as a proxy of TTN today. Right as a factual statement, totally wrong in the implication (and who would know this better than I am). While I would not have re-directed (most of) these articles that day, I redirect these types of articles on other days in a similar manner (as can be seen from my contributions) while no-one makes a big deal out of it. And why would they? It would be a hard strain on wiki procedure to open a new merge debate whenever a proper-enough merge&redirect is challenged by newbies or IPs without a comment, and I bet this exact loophole that got TTN into trouble in the first place will be filled eventually as well. – sgeureka 13:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no distinction between anonymous IP users and those who login and suggesting that there should be special rules when an IP is the wikipedian who challenges you strikes badly against the spirit of Misplaced Pages, imho. As to your comment about newbies... One would suggest you read up on BITE.... Suggesting that newbies and IPs should be treated as second class wikipedians is troubling. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I was a fanboy newbie once who was immediately bitten with an AfD, and I still only really learned the significance of WP:FICT (and WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:WAF, ...) after approximately four months of being an active wikipedian. I therefore consider it very unlikely that an IP or a newbie account who doesn't even use edit summaries, would know today's minimum requirements for fiction articles. And that doesn't even account for newly created disruptive sock puppets, although that would be the worst case scenario, so let's not go there. We're all here to at least maintain the quality we have already achieved, not twiddle our thumbs while some fanboy newbies (in good-faith or not) recreate articles that were considered bad the first time around. – sgeureka 21:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As Seresin hinted above, anyone continuously editing in the same manner as TTN should probably sanctioned in the same manner as TTN. Regardless, Meowth, being one of the main characters (and having a speaking role) in the cartoon series, is far from being an obvious merge candidate (regardless of how one feels about the other 400-odd pokémon). — CharlotteWebb 13:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

See: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Clarifications_and_motions ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a question, should I have posted that initially to AE rather than clarification? I am still kinda confused. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Just as a note, there have been two related threads at AE: TTN and notability tagging? and And so it begins again. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

To establish context, I had already wanted to merge this article quite a time ago. TTN's message was merely a reminder about the issue which I had forgotten about. Suggestions of puppeteering are false considering I have acted on my own accord and have decided what I plan to do, which is to raise discussion on the talk page and subsequently merge if there are no objections. So, in all honesty, I don't see anything sinister with what's happened. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk 16:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

People who edit in a manner identical to sanctioned users will themselves be eventually sanctioned. That is what we see is happening. I want to say "get a clue" but experience has thought me that wont happen. -- Cat 18:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

...What? If you have some agenda, then don't take it out on me. I will propose a merge, and will wait for discussion, which is the standard for any merger. Don't make such claims. Check my contributions and learn your mistake. Ashnard _Talk 19:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about you or anybody specific. Mine was a mere general statement. However your ears seem clogged to my words. -- Cat 09:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I misinterpreted "That is what we see is happening. I want to say "get a clue" but" on a topic based on a conversation involving myself as an attack at me. How stupid of me<_<. Ashnard _Talk 08:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Block

I'm rather uneasy about him being blocked: specifically, the reason why. While I understand he is restricted under E&C2, it's a stretch to apply said restriction to and . A better blocking reason would be for him requesting sguereka to redirect Meowth, but still, the current reason is very thin. Sceptre 13:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

See his talk page too. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Definitely the right call in this situation. ArbCom's decisions was clearly being violated. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I too have to echo the concerns that trimming an existing list of characters is the same as merge/deletion that C&E2 warns against. I did note that I felt tagging articles for notability may be considered broadly as the same previously at the ArbCom enforcement. However, these actions and the block, potentially, if TTN is unblocked and removes, say, one minor character out of a list or even one sentence about that character, someone's going to report him here again and lead down a slippery slope. I think this action should only be done if he engages in revert editing warring; if he, in good faith, tries to trim down an existing list of characters once, is reverted, then engages in discussion about it before other edits, that's perfectly in line with actions that we'd expect of any editor, that is, the lessons learned from the ArbCom case. If he continues to revert without discussion, then a block is fully justified. I just want to make sure that those that are monitoring and blocking him that there are a lot of people with TTN chips on their shoulders and may be able to push any block onto him for small well-meaning edits, based on the fact this block went through. (On the other hand, if there's collusion to enlist others to do exactly the same that TTN wanted to do by the same means as suggested above, that's very different) --MASEM 14:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

800 MEGABYTES???

Since a few weeks ago I've noticed that Misplaced Pages has become much slower than it used to be, especially after I've been using it for a while. This seems to be associated with a severe memory leak, for which the only solution is to restart my browser frequently, which is hardly acceptable. My computer has never has a virus so it must be in Misplaced Pages.

Could someone give me roll back so at least I can revert vandals without taking several minutes?

And why does in now say 'new section' rather than '+' at the top of the screen? I'm used to the position of the old thing on my screen and now always find my muose navigating to the wrong place. Could you please change it back? The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to say that I've noticed a decrease in the speed Misplaced Pages works at, not to mention the repeat lockings of the database (and this always seems to happen when I'm editing;) are the servers in the process of being upgraded or something? Qst (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

So many edits in so little time. Wikimedia hardware needs upgrades but for that we need funds. :) -- Cat 15:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The "new section" tab can be changed back to a "+" with a setting under the gadgets tab of your preferences. —Travis 15:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I did that. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you using Firefox? Because Firefox is kind of known for leaking memory... I can't imagine a reason why Misplaced Pages and only Misplaced Pages would cause a browser to leak memory. Veinor 16:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been using the same Firefox for a long time and this has never happened with any other site. It also didn't happen last year with Misplaced Pages so something must have changed. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that a website could do that would actively cause one particular browser to spring a memory leak. If you're using an old version of Firefox, well... I'd say update that first. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Firefox makes it easy to open many tabs or windows, and then it tends to slow down if there are more than a few of them --it has an option for giving a warning about that--you might want to activate it. DGG (talk) 18:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't open more than usual - just one for Misplaced Pages and one for whatever else I'm looking at. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 22:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

there several reasons for the recent wiki issues. FireFox just released a new version, it may have introduced a memory leak then. Also the master database server's clock was lagging by 7 seconds until about a day ago. that is what was causing the high job queue and the database locks. β 18:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you give me rollback anyway? I think I'll have to quit Misplaced Pages is it takes this much time ... The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 22:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on your edit history and propensity for making questionable decisions (such as edit warring with admins (, , ) or creating pages like Misplaced Pages:Toilet to house "copyrighted, offensive, or libelous content"), I suspect that most admins would be extremely hesitant to give you rollback privileges. --Kralizec! (talk) 00:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Based upon a series of reverts with another administrator at Real social dynamics only today, I'd like to wait a bit. In addition, I don't see how this thread is related inanysoway to rollback rights -- you can use TW or other javascript programs, or perhaps another browser, to edit with. Firefox is riddled with memory leaks. seicer | talk | contribs 00:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to just step and say. I use Firefox as my main internet browser and I have never one experienced a lockup while being on Misplaced Pages and it seems to be loading quickly to me. Just wanted to add that. Rgoodermote  16:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I concur with the original problem. My browser is presently using 273M and rising. I don't know if the problem is related to Misplaced Pages, as I usually have Misplaced Pages open. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Do not move to Commons

Many images use this template which is a problem because per 17 USC 104(c) and 17 USC 104A USA did NOT agree with Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works's article 7.8 (Rule of the shorter term).

In other words media that are free inside the US but not free outside of the US are in fact not really free inside the US per 17 USC 104(c) and 17 USC 104A.

We should sort this mess out. Commons incompatible "free" images should be unwelcomed to English wikipedia for not being free enough.

-- Cat 15:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps something that the foundation lawyers can sort out? I don't know if this is something a layman can determine with certainty. _(1 == 2) 15:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not want to run to foundation lawyers first thing every time... -- Cat 15:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Making policy decisions based on non-lawyers' interpretation of laws is not a good idea. Mr.Z-man 17:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not interpreting the law. I am quoting something well known and in common practice. Such images for example are deleted in commons. -- Cat 18:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sure if there is a need, then somebody will. _(1 == 2) 15:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

There are other license templates that fall into this category...{{PD-US-1923-abroad}} and {{PD-US-1996}} come to mind. Probably worth raising at Misplaced Pages:Copyright. Kelly 18:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I was hoping a general discussion on this noticeboard since project talk pages do not get the necesary attention. -- Cat 18:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting things. This template would be appropriate and correct for a work from a life + 100 country -- in the US, the work would only be copyrighted for life + 70. Likewise, it would be appropriate for works like Peter Pan or the King James Bible: they're under perpetual copyright in the UK, but not in the US. The US did not adopt the rule of the shorter term, but to my knowledge, it did not adopt the rule of the longer term, either. --Carnildo (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Unless you adopt the rule of the shorter term by default you are adopting the rule of the longer term... You are missing the entire point... -- Cat 09:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There are three options here, not two.

1. The rule of the shorter term: if the copyright in the country of first publication is shorter, use it. A bunch of countries adopted this
2. The rule of the longer term: if the copyright in the country of first publication is longer, use it. I don't know of any country that's done this.
3. Apply your own copyright terms, regardless of the term in the country of first publication. To the best of my knowlege, this is what the US has done.

--Carnildo (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit point alpha

• Law isn't a matter of opinion. There are many (far more than three) practices conducted by signatories of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. Countries need to ratify each individual article or section in their own laws as the international treaty by itself is meaningless. Not every country chose to ratify "article 7.8" of the Berne Convention for example. In addition Berne sets the minimum amount of protection. Countries may choose to be more restrictive. Berne for example suggests authors life +50 years but US chose to be more restrictive with authors live +70 years. Because the servers are inside the US, only the US laws are binding. Foreign laws are only binding per US law stating that it is.

• 17 USC 104 (above) basically talks about how laws of other signatories of Berne Convention is binding in the US even if the work is not published. 17 USC 104 and particularly 17 USC 104A extends the copyright protection beyond Berne to include non-signatories of Berne such as WTO members and etc. There even is executive privilege over the matter.

• 104A's a-1-b talks about protection unless the work has entered the public domain in the US at some point for whatever the reason. This addresses templates like {{PD-US}}, {{PD-US-1996}} and etc where works made/published in the US somehow become PD. Once a US work becomes PD inside the US, it stays PD forever at least within the US. This also means even if a work becomes PD in the country of origin the "author's life +70 years" may still apply (rule of the long term for you).
• 104A's b explicitly states that the laws of the works origin applies. Fortunately for most countries copyright expires within 70 pma, some as low as 50 pma or even 25 pma. As you can see on the grand list for some countries the copyright term exceeds +70 pmas. Per 104A's b if it is copyrighted in the country of origin it stays copyrighted within the US.
• Tying the two items above together... 104A's a-1-b explicitly states "if the work never entered the public domain in the United States" meaning US law makes no guarantee weather or not the work stays within PD if it did not entered PD within the US. This is 70 pma (post mortem auctoris) rule also per 104A's b the laws of the country of origin apply. Therefore a work may stay copyrighted until it is both PD in the country of origin and for some reason it became PD as per US laws as well. US laws explicitly give priority to the laws of the country of origin.
• On wikipedia we prefer to play it safe per past experience. Unless a works PD'ness is guaranteed by the US law, we treated as if it were copyrighted even if the work became PD in the country of origin. We made this mistake with Template:PD-Soviet. PD-Soviet was based on the fact that "all works published in the Soviet Union before May 27, 1973, were not protected by International Copyright Conventions" which was fine until Russia passed laws renewing copyright of PD-Soviet works. They can do that. Had they renewed after the US 70pma, then it would be a different story but even then it is an unnecesary gray area.
• I do not believe {{PD-US-1923-abroad}} has any legal basis. Or at least the template doesn't link to it. It appears to be wishful thinking at best as is but works published before 1923 are typically safe as in most cases the copyright has already expired and such images should be marked with {{PD-old}} instead.

Is it more clear now? (Misplaced Pages:Non-US copyrights#Dates of restoration and terms of protection answers all three point of yours.)

-- Cat 20:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyright duration is determined by Chapter 3, not Chapter 1. --Carnildo (talk) 02:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please quote the specific legal text you are referring to. -- Cat 09:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

17 USC 302 and 17USC 303:

17 USC 104(c) may also be of interest:

as may 17 USC 301(a):

In short, the only thing that determines the term of copyright in the US is 17 USC 302 and 17 USC 303.

--Carnildo (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I am {{cquote}}'ing your post so I can follow it more easily. I hope you do not mind.

You are omitting an important detail. These laws only apply to images originally created inside the US. Neither Peter Pan nor King James Bible are such works. In addition we are concerning ourselves with media (images, sound files, video files) and not written works, that'd be wikisource or wikibooks.

Media originally created outside the US will be under the jurisdiction of non-US law ("law of the source country of the work") per 104A's b. Are we in a disagreement with this?

Media originally created in the US will be under the jurisdiction of US laws per Berne Convention and other treaties. Right? There is no reason why such free images shouldn't be uploaded/moved to commons. Am I missing something?

-- Cat 16:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You're missing the point of 17 USC 104A entirely: it covers works that were out of copyright in the US on January 1, 1996, because they did not comply with US formalities, but were copyrighted in their country of origin: see 17 USC 104A(h)(6). It restores copyright to such works as if they had never been out of copyright, giving them the same protection as works first published in the US (17 USC 104A(a)). It says absolutely nothing about applying foreign law in the US. --Carnildo (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Something copyrighted in a foreign country per that countries copyright law is copyrighted in the US. We are talking about the same thing here. -- Cat 22:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Something published in a foreign country that is eligible for copyright in that country also gets a copyright in the US. However, the duration of the copyright in the US is determined by US law (17 USC 302 and 303), not by the home country's law. --Carnildo (talk) 22:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Why the hell do we give a flip about the UK or EU laws when the server is in the US? Also, I take issue with your misappropriation of the the word "free." This is a blatant attempt to restrict freedom not expand it, so stop hiding behind euphemisms. It is bad enough our biographies pretty much suck now with those rediculous "missing person" boxes, without more perfectly good pictures being deleted to prove a point. Also, there are any number of reason for not hosting on commons, such as pictures that don't belong there because they are userspace stuff. Stop creating solutions in search of problems which don't exist. If you find this so objectionable, then maybe the time has come to fork into en-US and en-GB. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Bot reverting YouTube video links on Durham Miners' Gala

User:XLinkBot has been reverting YouTube videos showing the Durham Miners' Gala (see here). The bot seems to go through taking out anything with a YouTube link, even though the videos are not banned outright. I can't see that it cotnravines any copyright having the videos there. It simply highlights the spirit of the event nicely: it's so much more enriching if people can see what it is like. I'm really upset that this stupid bot is removing these videos. Can somebody take a look at this? 88.107.110.247 (talk) 20:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the list of sites it removes, and youtube is on it. I can't imagine youtube having much encyclopediodic value, but I suppose it does help from time to time. Oh and btw, try not to describe things as stupid ;-)--TrueWikimedian (talk) 21:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Okies, so can someone edit the bot? Clearly removing anything ith a YoutTube link is useful at getting rid of most spam, but it's still throwing out good stuff. It's a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Because the links do not contravene any Misplaced Pages policy (as far as I can see), surely it is the bot who is violating policy by remoiving such links. Thus, its reverts are wrong, and it should therefore be immediately be deactivated until the owner (or someone else) can sort it out. 88.107.110.247 (talk) 21:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the vast majority of the youtube links that are added to Misplaced Pages do indeed tend to be copyright violation or inappropriate, so this is more of a case of throwing your change away with your meal. Especially since it's programmed to not perform the reversion more than once per page per user. I've found that the bot's merits outweigh its shortcomings, at least in my experience as a link patroller. Veinor 21:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, that's not the point. A criminal can break the law, yet then do a thousand good deads before getting caught, but they still broke the law. What the bot does well does not excuse what it does not. That it removes a lot of spam does not then make it ok to remove legitimate links. That is the point. 88.107.110.247 (talk) 21:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

88.107, your analogy isn't valid; for starters, breaking the law usually requires intent. This would mean that the bot's programmer intentionally made it remove links that he somehow knew in advance wouldn't violate the link guidelines. This'd be more like negligence, and a charge of negligence can indeed be dropped if it's shown that reasonable care was taken. And it has. It's unreasonable to expect any sort of spam-removing bot to have a 0% false positive rate. It's more like a person who normally does really well at their job, but occasionally makes a mistake. You're not going to fire this person because you know nobody can be perfect, and the mistakes they do occasionally make are ones that are easy to fix. Veinor 21:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

No it's not - negliance isn't acceptable once it is found. When it is spotted, it should be immediately corrected. We cannot say it is ok for the bot to revert legitimate positings because most of the time it gets it right. Granted it was not the creator's intention, but now we know it is reverting legitimate posts, it has to be changed to ensure it is not doing this. 88.107.110.247 (talk) 22:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Assuming the bot works as advertised, it only reverts the edits that (a) add links to sites that are on its revert list (b) made by editors whose accounts are less than 7 days old. Not a bad set up, IMHO. --ElKevbo (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And "for some values of legitimate" - the collection of links in question smell strongly of processed meat products. Guy (Help!) 21:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I find it upsetting to see something writing "I can't imagine youtube having much encyclopediodic value," as if that matters. What is TYPICAL of youtube may have no encyclopedic value, but what is TYPICAL is NEVER the point. The point is whether the one link being added or deleted has encyclopedic value. Just because 99.999% of everything written is crap is no reason to abolish writing if the other small fraction of it is of great value. Same thing with youtube or anything else. Misplaced Pages relies heavily on that fact. Michael Hardy (talk) 22:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

My point exactly :) 88.107.110.247 (talk) 22:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

However, when 99.9% of the links added are to 'typical' unencyclopedic youtube stuff, the minor .1% that is encyclopedic but is reverted anyway is an acceptable price. It's never the case that a youtube link, or any other link for that matter, is so critical to an article that it would require dismantling the quite useful XLinkBot. To reverse my earlier job analogy, if an employee is a lazy slacker 99% of the time, and the other 1%, he's only maybe slightly above-average, would you fire him? Of course you would; the 1% of above-average productivity isn't worth the 99% of below-average. Veinor 22:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

No, but if the hispanic population had a lower literacy rate than the white population, and you had a white and hispanic man apply for a job, you would not use those statistics to choose the white man. That is what the bot is doing. It is a really sad day when you start to say that censoring legimate links "is an acceptable price". I do not know a great deal about WIki, but I am sure that must go against some key principle, somewhere. I can't believe there are people like this who run Misplaced Pages :( 88.107.110.247 (talk) 22:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The fundamental problem here is that your analogy (and mine, for that matter), involve a human performing the decision. XLinkBot is, obviously, a bot. It does not possess artificial intelligence, and is thus not able to test a link on its own. And it's not like you're forever denied of the right; just register an account and wait 7 days (I think that's the bot's autoconfirm period). As far as I know, there's no such thing as a white-ification procedure. Being Hispanic is part of one's identity; being an anonymous editor is not. Nor is it your fundamental right to add a link to an article. Veinor 22:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Bot 1 spam 0 --Hu12 (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

(New section) Ultimately, Misplaced Pages has these bot requirements. I have left a message on the talk page of the bot, so therefore in time I expect the creator to be aware of the issue of removing legitimate links. If the bot is not changed, the creator of the bot would be in violation of the policy on vandalism, specifically:

Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages.

Since the removal of legimimate links is compromising the integrity of Misplaced Pages, they would therefore be violating the policy, and be subject to whatever recourse is usual. End of. 88.107.110.247 (talk) 22:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The creator of the bot is currently on vacation; I'm not sure when he'll be back, but it won't be at least for a week I'm pretty sure (unless he decides to pop in). And I would draw your attention to the word "deliberate": in order for this to count as vandalizing, XLinkBot would have to be removing all youtube/blogspot/whatever links regardless of who added them. As it is, this is a simple filtering mistake of the sort that cannot be avoided in any anti-spam bot that will have any affect at all. Veinor 22:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I agree, it is a mistake. It does become deliberate though if he then allows it to continue to make mistakes when he is aware of it. 88.107.110.247 (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

What you fail to understand, but as many have tried nicely to explain to you, is that the argument is actually irrelevant. No bot works 100% perfectly (heck, no human works 100% perfectly). But for the same reason we don't ban anti-vandalism bots over the rare revert of a good-faith edit in an article concerning genitalia or something of the like, we are not going to ban this bot because now and then, the youtube link was actually good. In my own experience, the vast majority of youtube links added by new or unregistered users are blatant copyright violations, and keeping these off the project is far more important than not causing you a 10 second inconvenience every once in a while. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And I don't mind that, as long as steps are taken to make sure unregistered users can post legitimate YouTube links! I'm sure it does a lot of good :) 88.107.110.247 (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh. You can just undo the bot's edit, and it won't make it again. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You have to register to do that though :( I don't want to register. I have tried reverting 2 times and it just switches it back. 88.107.110.247 (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You'll notice it didn't revert you until you made another edit after reverting the bot. So it was probably actually acting on the next edit you made, and by default reverted all of your edits, which is the norm for anti-spam/vandal bots. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

There should be no bot removal of YouTube links. While many of those that are linked are copyright violations, some videos are posted on YouTube by the copyright holders, and having links to such videos can be very beneficial to an article. If the bot is programmed to remove the links, won't it just remove them again even if you revert? Everyking (talk) 04:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

It is time I clarify some things here (as one of the bot operators; I am on holiday, only here now and then):

• The bot reverts links which are in the large majority thought to be unhelpful, or which are strongly pushed by new/unregistered accounts, or which should simply not be here (not only for copyright, but per one or more of WP:NOT#REPOSITORY, WP:NOT#DIRECTORY, WP:COPYRIGHT, WP:EL, WP:COI, WP:RS, WP:OR ..). Youtube is on that list, as it is in over 99% of the cases crap, especially when added by users who don't know our policies (some of which forbid copyrighted material to be linked, though yes, not all youtube videos are copyrighted material) and guidelines.
• It reverts an account once. If the account then adds the link again, a warning is issued to IRC, but the bot does not revert on that page again. It does not make a difference if the user is an IP or registered, or that another user makes that edit. It will revert the user again if he edits another page, though. It does revert if the editor then makes yet another edit to that page where an external link on the revertlist is used.
• It does not revert accounts older than 7 days.
• It does not revert accounts which are whitelisted, that can be named accounts, and IPs .. though the operators should be reluctant to do that for IPs, or it must really be sure that the IP is static.
• For as far as detectable, it does not revert inside references, templates and remarks.
• It does not revert more than 3 times in a 30 hour period on one page, regardless who make the edits (which could be 4 different users adding 4 different links which are on the revertlist).

Now some statistics: en.wikipedia is operating under about 133 edits per minute, of which 73% to content-like namespaces (main, template, category; 96 per minute). In over 6% of these edits external links are added (or changed; including references; so about 6 per minute), containing on average 1.78 external link per edit. For youtube, in about a month since the current database started there were about 15000 youtube links added (about 1 every 3 minutes). Recentchanges has quite some people watching, the link-additions-channel only a few (and quite a few of these are concerned more with the cross-wiki aspect of external link spamming). It is undoable to watch that by eye, and just like VoABot and ClueBot, it reverts on algorithm to decide what is too often a problem, and it does make a few mistakes in that. If it makes mistakes too often, then a rule should be considered for removal.

Youtube links are often a problem(Misplaced Pages:External links states "There is no blanket ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page (which would happen infrequently)."), though not banned (if it was banned, it would be on the blacklist). In this way the floodgates are controlled. Youtube videos can be beneficial, and therefor it is possible to override the bot.

I hope this explains and clarifies a bit. --Dirk Beetstra 19:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this explains a lot. Thanks. It would be beneficial if the bot actually said (in the message posted to the 'offending' user) that you can add the links again without them being reverted. But then, I suppose that's a valuable piece of info for spammers. 88.107.119.54 (talk) 21:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

As Beetstra explains, links can be re-added. The bot warns on first addition with a pretty scrupulous good faith msg. It won't revert to itself if the link is re-added. In this case the user was edit-warring with the bot and a real user, re-adding links and getting reverted.

Normally, since I edit as an IP, I'm up in arms about treating new users differently but this has been thought through quite soundly, IMO. The payoff for reverting mostly-dubious URLs on sight from new users is obvious, the bot's msg is good faith, and good links can be re-added. Win. 86.44.26.162 (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Need admin eyes on US Department of Justice activity, please (CAMERA/lobbying)

149.101.1.130 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), the US Department of Justice in Washington, DC, has made two edits to the article Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, which is directly related to the CAMERA/Israeli wiki lobbying mess under way and pending to be an RFAR at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#CAMERA lobbying, fuller details at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby campaign. The Justice employee is attempting to scrub any mention of CAMERA's activities to influence Misplaced Pages (now double-sourced) as seen here in this edit. It's causing a stir on the talk page at Talk:Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America#Edit from U.S. Department of Justice. A warning was left for the IP user here. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 21:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The IP editor at Justice is leaving BLP violations all over, in addition to the blanking vandalism at the CAMERA article. He's now on his final warning, whomever it is. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 21:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest contacting the ISP over it. I would imagine U.S. Department of Justice would not like a scandal like this. -- Cat 22:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Can't Sleep, Clown Will Eat Me has blocked the US Department of Justice for four days. Who needs to contact the Communications Committee? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 22:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

See here for the notification. KnightLago (talk) 22:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Any admins looking might want to consider the sources claimed for this piece of disputed text. MickMacNee (talk) 23:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the initiator L Cohen, I point to his recently filed, and universaly rejected AFd of G D Stefano, on his nomination grounds of 'do no harm', and he's suing wikipedia for defamation, yet contrast the on wiki fall out of this wikilobby drama he seeks to maintain, there is created a massively POV talk page template defaming a whole organisation. The question being if/when they sue for defamation, what will his stance be? MickMacNee (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat bizarrely, it seems that Admins should not be primarily involved in content disputes, whatever you would like to believe. As I see it, the processes have been followed; end of. Trying to stretch an issue beyond that which it cannot reasonably be taken seems unnecessarily disruptive. Issues tend to have their limits, and unjustified and unexplained leakage would appear to be unhelpful. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

149.101.1.130 maps to "wdcsun30.usdoj.gov", which appears to be one of a group of web proxy servers. There are "wdcsun1" through "wdcsun32", with IP addresses from 149.101.1.101 to 149.101.1.132. I'd suggest putting them on "soft block", to prohibit anonymous editing. It's disturbing to see politically-oriented edits coming from the U.S. Department of Justice. --John Nagle (talk) 04:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly surprising, considering what's been going on at the DoJ for the past seven years. --jpgordon 05:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Large number of Jewish editors are pushing their anti-palestinian viewpoints in this article though64.126.34.118 (talk) 18:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The religious/political affiliations of editors is irrelevant; fairness and consistent policy is what matters. Durova 09:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Durova, WP:DFTT. --Relata refero (disp.) 12:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be brought to the attention of the relevant DoJ oversight committees in Congress? --Dragon695 (talk) 00:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Disabling email when blocking

Admins, please keep in mind the email function should not be disabled as a default when placing blocks. Email should only be disabled if it is abused, not preemptively. I've seen this happening more and more frequently. (pet peeve) - auburnpilot talk 21:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. See also Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy#Setting block options: "This option should not be used by default when blocking an account, but rather it should only be used in cases of abuse of the 'email this user' feature." Is there a specific case/user you're having trouble with, here? – Luna Santin (talk) 03:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It has been said many times. Anyway, probably having it in red font would let blocking admins stop and think for a second before enabling it. Probably also a link to the policy section would help? -- FayssalF - 21:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Nukeh

If User:Nukeh (user page reminds me of User:Conservative) continues to mess around on my talk page, can one of you do me a favour and shoot him? Richard001 (talk) 06:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Which gun? Sig Sauer, .30-06, or Combine SMG? In any case, I have your page watchlisted. He shows up again and bugs you, he's gonna regret it. -Jéské 08:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Nukeh is evidently either trolling or completely confused, a classic case of a disruptive editor. I've given him a stern warning, this behaviour is definitely blockable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Another admin bites the dust

LaraLove appears to of retired within the past few hours. How many admins is that so far this year that have gone from this project? D.M.N. (talk) 08:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

• I predicted that at her RfA. Guy (Help!) 08:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Too bad... sometimes things are taken too personal... I've always considered taking a couple of weeks' break from editing or at least from admin tools the best remedy for wiki-stress. --Tone 09:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

:( seicer | talk | contribs 13:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

What Seicer said... sucks :( Sceptre 13:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Damn... LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Much as Lara and I had severe disagreements in the past (fortunately now resolved), I find this retirement particularly regretable in view of her strong encyclopedia building skills. Burn out, or just generally becoming hacked off with the project, seems to be becoming a major issue, and one I doubt we can fix. Pedro :  Chat  13:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Any background on Lara's departure? I know that a lot of administrators have been getting hit hard with a lot of threats and releases of private information, especially when you have dedicated web-sites to that venture. seicer | talk | contribs 14:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This is too bad. Maybe she'll come back after a break... Is it standard, though, for user - even admin - talk pages to be protected when that user retires?

Likely that she does not want people piling on her talk page to leave messages right now. Let's give it some time and hope that she changes her mind. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This seems (from looking at the past week's worth of contribs) to have been the result of interpersonal online stuff with her and another now-retired user. As a chatroomer from waaay back, I'm still amazed when people get so involved in an online community that they let it disrupt their equilibrium. But obviously she was hurt by SOMETHING, and that's never good. Gladys J Cortez 14:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Her recent edit summaries and diffs are frankly unsettling. I hope she comes back, like most "retired" users tend to do (hey, I've done it myself), but it's clear that something has affected her deeply. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Song lyrics, for the most part, for the record. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Raymond--Don't worry, that's just Tool and/or A Perfect Circle. Two (excellent, IMHO) bands, same frontman, some exceedingly dark themes, and LL and the_undertow were colleagues on the band's WP project. Her choice of edit summaries is not as ominous as it would first appear. Gladys J Cortez 06:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on the symbol on the top right corner of Lara's userpage, The_undertow has also retired. D.M.N. (talk) 15:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Damn (again...) LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah...that was the "other now-retired user" I mentioned above.Gladys J Cortez 17:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

A sad day for WP. Bearian (talk) 18:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Bearian said it best. A sad day. May she return if/when she's ready. Always welcome. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer

• Just to be clear here, I was rather hoping not to have my somewhat gloomy prediction fulfilled, since I too think LaraLove is a decent and nice person and was an asset tot he project overall. I hope she'll be back when the stress levels drop. Guy (Help!) 18:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey all, just wanted to fill a couple things in. the_undertow has indeed retired; he is probably gone for good this time. Lara is taking more of a WikiBreak for personal reasons; she'll be back within a few weeks, most likely. She sends all her well-wishers her best, though. GlassCobra 18:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Continued trolling by sockpuppets

I would refer you to this incident and advise that the situation is continuing via a series of what are definitely WP:SOCK transgressions. Please see my talk page in particular and the contributions of User:Fieldgoalunit, User:JimBakken, User:Mountlaurel, User:Fiddler Einar of Saipan and now User:Longrunup, all of which are the same person. As is, so I have been advised, the banned User:Richard Daft.

This person via his several userids is carrying on a campaign against me because of actions that I took to improve Golden Age of cricket, an article that was seriously lacking structure and context, as well as being afflicted by content errors and poor spelling, grammar and syntax. Since the article was redrafted, this person has attacked my talk page on several occasions.

As you can see from the incident quoted above, he has first attempted to "out" me by using what he thinks is my real name (in fact he has mistaken me for someone else that I actually know). Despite interventions by both User:Orderinchaos and User:Moondyne, he has carried on a campaign of trolling which is designed to discourage me from using Misplaced Pages.

Would an administrator please take whatever action is necessary to stop this person from abusing (and even from using) the site? Thank you. --JamesJJames (talk) 08:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no connection with the listed names but as I was unhappy with JamesJJames comments on the article, he has begun attacking me. Mountlaurel (talk) 12:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Before leaving this to rot, I would point out that it began with a vicious and uncalled for attack by the so called James on something I had put up for edit. This attack continued and was motivated by his supposed knowledge of who I am. I am Jimbakken as well, though I did indicate this. I know who longrunup is but not the other names. Too much of Black Sabbath's second album I think. Oh and all his great friends at Cricketarchive would send regards, were anybody speaking to him. Over and outFieldgoalunit (talk) 13:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

All of this relates to some sort of off-wiki feud between members and others associated with Association of Cricket Statisticians. There's history here that I don't understand (a possibly uninvolved and now retired User:BlackJack would probably be able to explain it all) and don't know where to begin to explain it all. The problem is that they've now come here to point score and attack each other. Certainly there does seem to have been a campaign of harrasment against JamesJJames, but his hands are not entirely clean either. IMO, his edits to Golden Age (cricket) and AfD'ing several of BlackJack's articles seem to have been more about making a point than anything else. I confess I don't know what to do here but would not be unhappy if someone blocked the lot. I know we're not supposed to use cool-down blocks but this may be a case to do so. Moondyne 14:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please file a report at WP:SSP. That's the way to get attention from users and administrators who are accustomed to dealing with sock puppetry cases. You also need to be specific and factual. Less talk, more diffs. Jehochman 14:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Can I please make clear that I have no problem with User:BlackJack, who is (was?) a brilliant contributor to Misplaced Pages and other sites on the internet. I know who he is, via the ACS, and I have communicated with him personally in the past, mainly about his own website. I supported him when he wanted the article about himself removed from Misplaced Pages as I know something of the problems he has faced.

I am already aware that two of the articles I recommended for AfD were started by him but I did not act out of malice towards him. I made a mistake with List of works by cricket historians and writers because I didn't understand that lists of this sort are actually useful on the site. I withdrew the nomination as soon as I realised that consensus was against me and that I had missed the point. I then attempted to make amends by making a few enhancements to the article.

The other BlackJack article was Monster Bat Incident 1771 which was a straight copy from another publication (the Cricket Society journal) and I thought it was a breach of the original publisher's copyright. I was wrong again and withdrew that nomination too, but consensus at the AfD discussion was that the article was not objective enough and should be made more concise, which is what happened and I could only demur, though I did make a couple of edits to it myself.

The third and final article I nominated was Golden Age of cricket and this had nothing whatever to do with BlackJack. His contributions record indicates that he left the site (hopefully not permanently) before the article was even initiated. My objections to the article have been clearly documented and I fail to see why an undeniably poor article should not be improved. I thought that was something the site expects of its editors? The main contributor to the article was the Fieldgoalunit troll and his work was frankly abysmal. It was far and away the worst cricket article I have seen on Misplaced Pages. Since it was overhauled by a number of editors such as User:jhall1 it is now quite good and is a worthy "start-class" effort.

My problem was with (what was) a badly written article and there is no way that anything written by BlackJack comes under that heading. As for the ACS, I have already stated that I am a long-term member and I feel bound to defend its interests (which is not something that BlackJack himself would do any more).

I do not know where the WP:SOCK troll is coming from at all. He appears to both support and denounce the ACS but I am mystified as to his motives, other than his intention of stopping me from using Misplaced Pages. The comment above about CricketArchive makes no sense whatsoever. As you can see, he has contravened WP:SOCK in this thread alone as User:Mountlaurel and as User:Fieldgoalunit. He certainly does know who User:Longrunup is: himself!

As for his assertion that I "know who he is", I'm afraid I do not. It has been suggested to me (offline) that he is a certain person who used to be on the ACS committee, but I never met or even communicated with that person so I am as confused as User:Moondyne obviously is. However, I do know the man that User:Fieldgoalunit named and tried to "out".

The mind boggles and I despair. I am thinking of calling it a day as this has got completely out of hand and is a waste of my time. I'm afraid the internet as a whole, including Misplaced Pages, is at the mercy of trolls like this one. --JamesJJames (talk) 20:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking for recreated deleted articles?

Looking to stay one step ahead of those recreating the same deleted article but under a slightly different article name? Where Special:PrefixIndex allows you to search article names that begin with a certain text string, Wikimedia.de grep is a recently improved tool that allows you to search text strings anywhere they appear in the article name. For example, if the article John Smith is delete and recreate as John J. Smith, entering ^John.*Smith$ at Wikimedia.de grep allows you to keep tabs on all John Smith articles, whether John, Johnny, Johnson is used, or any text string is placed between John Smith. search example Even if the beginning of the article name is changed, grep lets you search the middle and end of the article name for common text patterns. Wikimedia.de grep allows you to find such postings in project space and any other name space. The grep tool also is great for finding all related categories and all related templates, even if they are not categorized in a ] -- GregManninLB (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

With this search, I found false blocking notice, Blocking or other action needed: 1, 2, 3, 4; Offcolor article names in user space: 1, 2, 3; Offcolor userboxes 1, 2, 3; Offcolor commentary: 1; Offcolor essays: 1, 2. GregManninLB (talk) 15:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Amoruso, & sockpuppets

Amoruso (talk · contribs), a long-time editor on Israeli/Palestine issues, has lately, among other things, been edit-warring on articles about different settlements/neighbourhoods of Jerusalem. I noticed that as soon as Amoruso had "used up" his 3RR, another "fresh" editor, Robertert (talk · contribs), conveniently came along to take up where Amoruso had to stop. I requested a CheckUser, and it came up with this result, namely that Robertert (talk · contribs) is also Arzkibar (talk · contribs) and Onthedunes (talk · contribs), and " Likely also Amoruso (talk · contribs)." Could some admin please take a look at this? Thanks. Regards, Huldra (talk) 15:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's legalize killing! How obvious!

User:Porosenok17, a new account whose first edit was earlier today, and who may or may not have a very strange sense of humor, has been advocating this proposal on numerous editors' talk pages, as seen here, including mine, as seen here. Please advise. John Carter (talk) 15:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked him indefinitly as a vandalism only account, after those messages he started vandalising articles. Davewild (talk) 15:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Miyokan and standardization

I would like to bring to your discussion on User:Miyokan (Talk) recent deletion and edition history. Recently, this user has been removing vital code from the article "Template:Russian cities." I am not knowledgeable on whether there is a standardization rule here on Misplaced Pages, but I hope you would agree that it is a reasonable unwritten rule here. In recent days, this user has removed images all together, added unnecessary information or code, and removed a vital location tool from the template. This has repeated for weeks now, and I would hope that you would agree that this needs to stop.

This is not this user's only notification on deletions and editions on Misplaced Pages. Miyokan has been noticed about altering the articles "Russian presidential election, 2008," "Ronald Reagan," "Anti-Russian sentiment," and has done others in witch I have no reference for except for on his talk page. I gave this user a warning that I would inform an administrator about these and other edits, but he has refused to acknowledge this and reverted the article again. — NuclearVacuum 15:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to get some feedback about the process of making a WikiProject in witch to officially standardize the all Templates of city populations. I would both like to get your feedback on this and your opinion on standardizations on Misplaced Pages: is it an unwritten rule? — NuclearVacuum 15:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I expect this would come under the purview of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cities. --— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 17:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have fully explained my edits on talk. NuclearVacuum's has refused to compromise on anything and his entire argument seems to stem from some kind of "standardization" rule, which does not exist, as each template is different. Furthermore, "standardization" does not concern trivial matters (2 images instead of 3, abbreviations instead of the full text, Tnavbar), only the main format of the template has to be the same, which it is.--Miyokan (talk) 02:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

First, Template:Russian cities has been reverted by both parties 3 times in the last 24hrs. Both parties are hereby reminded of WP:3RR and warned to stop this edit warring immediately.

As Gadget850 points out, WP Cities would be a good place to start.

Now, my thoughts on the two different versions: NuclearVacuum's version, Miyokan's version

• 2 pictures looks better than 3. With 3 the photos are a little too small to be useful. If there is any major dispute regarding the number of photos (and yes, the number of photos is a relatively trivial matter), then simply use no photos at all since the total absence of photos would not diminish the information presented.
• Abbreviations for federal subject, state, etc. do not look as good as giving the full name. There's enough space for the full name, and the abbreviations are meaningless to the uninformed reader. Yes, you can see what the abbreviation means if you place your pointer over the text, but why should you have to do that when there is enough room to display the text anyway?
• (third point, forgot to mention it earlier) if it comes down to choosing between 2 images or giving full state names, then I'd give displaying the full names priority.

True, standardisation is an unwritten rule in many areas. BUT there is a difference between coming up with a standard and one person simply saying that their way is standard. And if situations arise where this "standard" doesn't quite fit, then usually it is the standard that needs adjusting. 52 Pickup (deal) 17:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Speedy speedy delete request

Hi. Would some kind soul please delete the orphaned redirect Template:Administrative divisions of the Republic of China so that name may be used for the current "Template:ROC divisions". Thanks. Sardanaphalus (talk) 15:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. Ironically it got speedied faster then if you CSD'd it probably. Wizardman 15:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks already! Sardanaphalus (talk) 15:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Account keeps getting deleted

My account keeps getting deleted. WHY? I'm realsynical and it YOUR SITE keeps deleting me. WHY. SOMEONE DOESN'T want me on wikipedia. WHY????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.126.201.162 (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Accounts can't get deleted. Not sure what you mean. Wizardman 17:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Could you provide us with the names of the accounts? There might have been a violation of our username policy. The Dominator_Edits 17:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this User:Realsynical? You have to type the name using that exact case, i.e. with a capital "R". Seems like a fairly long-standing, if not much-used, account. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 17:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you can "cheat" the first letter, but not any of the others, as a side effect of the automatic uppercasing rules. Saves half a keystroke, at least. — Gavia immer (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Rania al-Baz

This article was recently deleted, supposedly for BLP problems. I'm not sure what the potentially libelous information in the article was (maybe it did not source her accusations of abuse by her husband? they received international notice and were widely reported). Can someone restore this? Here's a source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2005/oct/05/broadcasting.saudiarabia More are easily googlable. Mangostar (talk) 19:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have reviewed the deleted article and (although I do not often involve myself in BLP matters) confirm that there were problems in the article, not only for the subject but also the ex-husband, regarding bias. When sourcing references for a contentious BLP article the references must be impeccable and neutral; those used were neither (and nor is the one provided here). There is also a question of notability, in that the subject is probably not notable outside of the incident which makes up the majority of the article content. It is possible that there could be an article created around the incident and aftermath, with some background of the main two protagonists, and its rarity in Saudi culture. You may wish to take the matter to deletion review, but I suggest that an article regarding the incident as commented by me above may be a more appropriate way of having the incident included in the encyclopedia - providing you stay within BLP guidelines when referring to the parties. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Do I have to take this to a formal deletion review if there was never a deletion discussion? This woman also was notable outside the beating; the reason she attracted so much attention is that she was a television personality beforehand. (see the linked article beforehand). And how is it inappropriate to cite a Guardian article? It is clearly infused with opinion, but the facts in the article have presumably been reviewed before publication... Mangostar (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mangostar on the subject of reliability- if The Guardian isn't reliable, then we would have to reject all press. I would not reccomend deletion review- the subject seems to be notable, but the article is awful, and I agree with Doc's deletion. The article should be rewritten. J Milburn (talk) 21:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian newspaper is certainly reliable, but the website...? With newspapers there is a point of reference (an archived copy) but it is less certain with websites. Also, the style (I am a Gruniard reader) is less objective than print editorials are. As regards notability of the subject; I am aware that every regional newsreader in the US appears to have a stub at minimum, but that doesn't mean that newsreaders (even a female one in a male dominated society) are inherently notable. I believe that any notability of the individual concerned is implicitly linked to the domestic violence in Saudi culture issue, and that it is that incident that appears to satisfy notability claims. Even if the individual is marginally notable it makes no sense to have a stub article which links to the assault and subsequent divorce - the two would best be combined in the more notable subject. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Would you support that solution if, hypothetically, Gordon Burns (my local newsreader) became embroiled in some kind of incident that achieved international recognition? I don't agree with the idea at all- say 4chan was behind the next September 11, would you support merging the article on the website into the article on the incident? I believe that if someone was notable before an incident (not saying this person certainly was, but the way The Guardian talks about them suggests that they were) then we should include the incident in the article about them, even if we don't already have an article. Then, if it becomes too long, we can split it out, as with any article. J Milburn (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr Burns does not have an article that casts him, or anyone connected with him, in a potentially poor light. If Mr Burns was, for instance, acquitted on a technicality in a case of whelk trafficking with some salacious tabloid stories as references then - unless the article was returned to stub status - BLP may be involved and Mr Burns be a redlinked (if linked at all) mention in the articles regarding The Krypton Factor and the North of Watford Whelk Trafficking Scandal. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian article is not a blog posting, but an interview conduscted by their reporter. That they put it onto the web does not make it any less subject to their editorial control. It's miscellaneous blog postings of readers that may be attached to it that are not usable for BLP--or anything much else, for that matter.DGG (talk)

Time for some topic bans?

Allegations of state terrorism by the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been a festering heap of ordure for most of its life, and there appears to exist a small but fiercely determined coterie of editors who are determined to keep it that way. They are trying to get William M. Connolley desysopped for taking some brief but much-needed action there, and looking down the talk page I don't think there's a single editorial policy or guideline they have not violated at some point in their zeal to describe as many acts as possible as state terrorism by the United States. That's my view, anyway, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

I'd be interested to see what other admins think, and whether we believe that a "homeopathy solution" might work here. Guy (Help!) 20:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Has the WP:RfAR on William M. Connolley been rejected? If not, why not use that venue to see if there is a case for having such topic bans considered by the ArbCom. If there is no traction there - since it is a desysopping request - then the question might be raised here. Just a thought. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, your recent edit () to the article in question removed a part of the page that you said "lacked consensus to keep". However, the editors and contributors to the article had just came to consensus on the exact bit you removed. You have went against consensus on a controversal topic. Your edit should be reverted. Will allow an admin or you to decide on that. Hooper (talk) 20:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just reread the lead comment by Guy here - I really don't think he is asking for himself to be topic banned... ;~) Perhaps it really might be a good idea for this matter to be referred generally to Arbs since - unlike Homeopathy - there is no "alternate subject" that a holder of a viewpoint may be directed toward, and removing some editors (likely with a particular POV) from one article may upset the possibility of their being an unbiased article... or even an article altogether. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

No they hadn't. Your reading of partial agreement as consensus, is not a correct one. Guy (Help!) 20:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

JzG, please take it to arbitration and shine a bright light on this. It looks like the level of tendentiousness is high, and folks are gaming the system. Mediation and other forms of dispute resolution will not work when editors are not acting in good faith. Jehochman 23:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

As I said on the AfD if you want to deal with this the article will need to be put on probation so that any uninvolved admin can ban disruptive editors from the article without the need for new AN/ANI threads everytime. Topic bans are fine but knowing this article you will simply be playing whack-a-mole with these people. They are easy to recognize, they are the people who only edit this article and related articles. EconomicsGuy (talk) 05:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggest arbitration

I am an uninvolved party here, but I understand that this is a dispute that has been going on for a long time, and allegations appear to be flying around all over the place. Is it time to request arbitration? I don't know how to make the request. —  scetoaux (T|C) 22:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

See below, quite literally. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean that this is already fulfilled as Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Request for Arbitration/User:William M. Connolley? —  scetoaux (T|C) 22:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

No. These are two wholly seperate issues. Hooper (talk) 22:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Abuse of admin tools: editing through protection,again!

Guy is involved in the content dispute on this article, has tried to delete lots of well referenced material--when that failed to gain any consensus he tried to delete this article itself by nominated it for a Afd, which failed. Now he is blanking this long term section against consensus--through protection! This is clear abuse of the tools:. Protection is not an endorsement of a version, and its quite improper to use ones tools to get it locked in the version you want it in. It is a misuse of tools. He even admit in his edit summary, that consensus is lacking, so its completely inappropriate to edit a protected article for items that are not copyright vio or violations of BLP. William M. Connolley recently used his tools in a similarly abusive manner, and has been rebuked and is now facing an arbcom hearing. I ask for this Guy's blanking of a well referenced section through protection, that added with consensus, to be undone. There are several editors now protesting this unilaterial action.Giovanni33 (talk) 22:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

If this is the same article as above, may I suggest making this a subsection of that argument? - Ricky81682 (talk) 22:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, made it so. --I Write Stuff (talk) 00:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I have requested Guy to self revert. I feel we should allow a little time (it is early hours Sunday morning in the UK) to see if he will, and we should AGF that he didn't notice the warning in the meantime. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Its now 10:30 Sunday. Perhaps he's at church.

I'd like to point out that while I agree that that article needs trimming, cleaning out, and reduction of the long laundry list of complaints that are frequently duplicated from elsewhere, editing repeatedly through protection when editors in good standing object to it is not the way to do it as it is obviously frakking unsustainable! I can't believe anyone would do that, its utterly pointless as a long term solution. I also note that I, who generally despise that article explained patiently on the talkpage at one point that some mention of the section Guy removed was essential, as discussing its relation to terror, terrorism, and just war is the special province of one of the greatest living philosophers, and thus is hardly fringe POV-pushing. Bad show. --Relata refero (disp.) 09:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The article should be stubbed and rebuilt only through {{editprotected}} with robust consensus for every line. The article is, and always has been, an embarrassment. The only thing I did wrong was not being radical enough - the whole lot should come out and we should return to the long-standing principle that once an article exists, the onus is firmly on the editor seeking to include content, to demonstrate its relevance and verifiability, and achieve consensus for its inclusion. When that para about the Hiroshima bombs was originally removed, there was general agreement that to call it an act of state terrorism by the US was historical revisionism; the sources support the idea that with a 21st Century perspective one might include it in the definition of war terrorism, which is a different concept, but the number of sources which identify it as an act of state terrorism by the United States, is vanishingly small. The POV-pushers who WP:OWN that article have simply reinserted it, on the basis that a cosy agreement between a couple of them that some mention may be appropriate means the entire paragraph goes back in. They need to be banned from that article, the article needs to be stubbed, and no edits should be made ever again without robust consensus. It is probably the single shittiest article on the project - and I don't even like the US Government, I think it has for many decades behaved like a spoiled teenager. We are supposed to use our discretion to improve the encyclopaedia. We can improve it significantly by wiping that laundry-list of anti-US rants and starting over properly. ArbCom does not do content disputes, and I don't do needless process, this does not need process it needs firm action and common sense, and it needs it urgently. Article probation, stub, a minimum of six weeks protection, nothing goes in without consensus, topic bans for anyone who is less than entirely helpful in the process, and once the process is done, warnings and bans for anyone who goes in and disrupts it again. It's got to be done. That, or something equally drastic. We've left that horrible excrescence in mainspace for far too long and it should have been dealt with years ago. Oh, and I have no real views on the content, other than that it's crap. Unlike the article's WP:OWNers, I do not feel the compulsion to do down the US Government, and I've been called both a pro-US shill and a US-hater in the past. Guy (Help!) 15:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

As of the last discussion, no one opposed the content, it was made smaller in a sandbox view and so for no one opposed. In the previous discussion only yourself and John Smith opposed its addition. Everyone else felt to some extent it should be included. Just to add, I am not going to get into a debate over policy, but the sources do not call it "war terrorism" they call it state terrorism, for us to rename their classification based on your personal opinion is not really permissible. In the future please continue to use the talk page, and refrain from using your administrative tools in cases involving this article, since its clear you are no longer a "disinterested admin" nor "uninvolved admin." I won't be reviewing your response to this statement, as if you appear on the talk page or not to discuss civilly will be all I need to know if you read this. --I Write Stuff (talk) 16:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• I have reverted to the version in place when protection was imposed, on Guys behalf. A review of Guys contributions indicate that he has not edited since last night, and has likely not seen the various requests to self-revert. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh well done, you've given the POV-pushers a minor victory and degraded the encyclopaedia in the process. Fantastic job, exactly the kind of thing for which you were given admin tools. Meanwhile, nobody has addressed the festering heap of shit which is that article, nobody has addressed the tendentious editors who WP:OWN it, and nobody has done anything to make that article any less of an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages. Rather the opposite, in fact. Oh, and it's my son's birthday, am I allowed to take time off from this volunteer project for trivia like that? Do point me to the service level agreements for admins, I'm sure it didn't mention having to be online 24/7. Guy (Help!) 15:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I simply returned it to the version it was at the time of protection - I have no view on the content. However, your response indicates that you are prepared to violate policy and practice to edit to a particular point of view; Fantastic abandonment of the trust and responsibility that the majority of sysops feel bound to abide by. I find it strange that I should even comment that there is the article talkpage with which to attempt to address concerns, although even I cannot believe you are unfamiliar with RfC and RfAR as other avenues to resolve content disputes - the amount of time you spend there. Your opinion of my record in sysop actions is faintly amusing, as it appears that your knowledge of admin practice revolves around the concept of "stuff that I don't feel necessarily applies to me", but otherwise irrelevant. As for being away from the 'pedia; yeah, of course (and it is just one of those unfortunate coincidences that you reappear almost to the half hour of your improper edit being reverted), and I hope your family have a great day. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No one is required to volunteer, but your previous RfC did conclude that you shoul tone down your incivility. Hooper (talk) 15:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I've warned Guy for the incivility in his edit summary here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that's uncivil. In fact I'm not entirely sure what it's supposed to mean. My interpretation is that it's part of the phrase "tit for tat." Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

tit for tat and tit might help here. The former is not abbreviated tit, and the latter means "An idiot; a fool." (UK, pejorative, slang) In the context of the sarcasm of "Oh well done, you've given the POV-pushers a minor victory and degraded the encyclopaedia in the process. Fantastic job, exactly the kind of thing for which you were given admin tools.", and Guy's prediliction for UK slang, most reasonable editors would, I believe, conclude that Guy was being incivil here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh God, now using the first word of "tit for tat" is cause for "civility alert?" Are you bloody serious? What a heaping, festering load of cow dung. Carcharoth, do you realize what you sound like here? "OMG MOMMY HE SAID A POTENTIALLY MAYBE SORTA BAD WORD!" The "civility" people on this encyclopedia seem determined to prove that their definition of "incivility" knows almost no bounds at all. FCYTravis (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Guy did not say "tit for tat", it is nonsense to suggest that he did. Tit is never used in British English (or any other variety of English as far as I am aware) as an abbreviation for tit-for-tat. It's obvious incivility, and entirely normal behaviour for Guy. I am sick and tired of the way some of his apologists torture the English language to try to excuse his behaviour. DuncanHill (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

How do you know what is in his mind? If the post by LessHeard vanU was the "tat," then Guy's response would be... "tit" for that tat. It's as good a guess as yours, if you're going to enter the realm of Guy mind-reading. FCYTravis (talk) 17:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I was commenting on the edit summary - which cannot in the English language be interpreted otherwise than as an insult. DuncanHill (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall we wait for Guy to comment? Carcharoth (talk) 17:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

FCYTravis, I'm not saying Guy used the first word of "tit for tat". Are you saying he did? I'm saying he used the word tit in a pejorative sense of calling someone an idiot or a fool. Oh, and please don't call my posts bullshit (=cow dung) - just saying that in a different way doesn't make it less incivil. And don't use hyperbole when describing my actions. You are welcome to try and make a case that I run around friviously warning people for incivility, but I don't think you will be able to. DuncanHill, thanks for confirming my point about British English. Carcharoth (talk) 17:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh noes, I said "cow dung." I'm INCIVIL. I'm EVIL. I must be stopped. Pathetic and sad, what this encyclopedia has devolved to. You are an example of what is wrong with Misplaced Pages - and now I assume you're going to call that "uncivil" too. Good. FCYTravis (talk) 17:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I've never said you are evil or must be stopped. From what I can see, you are a good editor who is upset about something at the moment. I have no problems with name-calling aimed at me, but please don't treat other people that way, they may be quicker to take offence than I am. Hopefully the next time we meet, we can work together on something productive. Carcharoth (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• comment I never saw Guys edit summary, and now that I have I am not concerned about it - in the UK it is as mild an insult as there is. Is it uncivil? Yes. though barely. Is it appropriate for an admin? No. Does it matter..? Nah, this is Guy; a long time contributor who cut his teeth in the Good Old Bad Old Days when decisive action was its own justification. Things have changed since then, but Guy hasn't. It is a shame that the dear old fart cannot keep up, but we really do not have to spend all this time and effort on this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, I suspected you might not have seen it. Not everyone reads threads from the history page. I think as tit-for-fart (both mild insults, as you say), this can be forgotten about. The article and its talk page should be of more concern. Carcharoth (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Guy wastes so much of everyone's time on Misplaced Pages that it really would be best if we did all ignore him. Unfortunately, he seems to go out of his way to stir up drama and conflict. Maybe he would be happier on another project, instead of one which requires collaborative effort. DuncanHill (talk) 18:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Guy, again

Is there any recourse for this behavior? I just do not see how this could possibly help the people who are actually attempting to reach a middle ground i this content, its completely destructive and just serves to divide a group who was actually finally engaging in meaningful discussions. I would have removed it, but I honestly fear reprisal for doing so. --I Write Stuff (talk) 16:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake, stop crying wolf. You come here every time he makes an unhelpful comment or whatever. You're really abusing the noticeboard and probably hoping that if you throw enough mud some of it will stick. Just lighten up and go edit another article for a few weeks. John Smith's (talk) 16:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, from what I can see, Guy is being disruptive there. Others are handling things fine, and Guy should step away. Carcharoth (talk) 16:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he should, but to ask "is there any recourse for this behavior" is a waste of everyone's time. I Write Stuff clearly has a problem with Guy and indeed William C. He won't make the situation any better by creating a new thread here everytime something happens, as the editors he is in disagreement with will completely ignore him. Is that what he wants? I don't know, I sometimes wonder if he is just going through the motions to justify yet another request for arbitration regarding people that edit the page.... John Smith's (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I guess everyone should sit while Guy decides to insult the article and everyone on it. If Guy wants to help the article perhaps as you put it, he should refrain from making unhelpful comments. I also did not file the Arbcom on William, from his RfC it seems he has his own set of issues. I simply want people to work together in a professional manner. --I Write Stuff (talk) 17:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say you did file the arb-comm on William. Guy should calm down, but what did you think was going to come out of this? Please tell me. Because I don't believe this is going to resolve anything, just make him more annoyed at you and less likely to listen to you in the future. You could have just made a comment on the talk page or the RfC. John Smith's (talk) 17:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem with them is not personal in nature. It's in regard to their specific disruptive behavior on an article that needs the very opposite kind of 'cool heads" in order to progress. Many dedicated editors who are serious about fixing the article are the ones who have shown to be knowledgeable about the subject, and are working with all view points, and following policies. The problem is we have this "drive by" disruption by a few editors who do not participate much, do not explain their edits, and do not remain cool. Instead, they just call the article names, try to get it deleted, and espouse their own very narrow POV that evidences their ignorance of the subject matter, ignore the claims of expert sources, and then violate admin tool use to push their pov. If topic bans are needed, it's precisely against these editors who are disrupting progress with these unbecoming antics.Giovanni33 (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is not personal as you say, it's because they're trying to sort the article out in a way you and others do not like. If they were acting in a way you liked you'd be trumpeting their actions and saying it was all good for the project. They're not trying to get the article deleted at all, they're trying to make it better. Guy may be annoyed at the moment, but that's because other editors are doing their best to frustrate the removal of dead wood that needs to be taken out. John Smith's (talk) 17:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No, John. That is not why. For me its not a matter of POV or content, per se. Its a matter of method: 1. collaborative/cooperative editing of working with others, discussing objections in a helpful and specific way, and creating consensus; and 2: following WP core policies, i.e. engaging and respecting what reliable sources say, and putting aside ones personal views in deference of these reliable sources. Its the violation of both of these things that we have a big problem with because its means they are disruptive and POV pushing (probably the former due to the latter). I've noticed a direct correlation being those who are disruptive and those who do not have valid arguments, do not have sources to support their claims, and only insist that their own POV is what matters. Its an untenable position and one that naturally leads to desperation, as we are witnesses, i.e. blatantly breaking rules with the use of the tools, being uncivil, etc.Giovanni33 (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

From where I'm sitting, it does not look like I Write Stuff is the one throwing mud. For the record, I'm sorely disappointed. — the Sidhekin (talk) 17:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

He's bringing up behaviour up every time there is a single incident. That is quite ridiculous. As I suggested, Guy should calm down but reporting him every time he says or does one thing will not win him over. If anything it will cause him to explode and make matters worse. The issue needs to be defused, not excited further. It's not as if there is no one there on the talk page. John Smith's (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What do you expect people to do when there is a difference in power and no effective way to address perceived (valid, obvious, and long-standing, IMHO) issues? It does seem like this administrator is getting treated rather lightly when his activities are clearly disruptive. --ElKevbo (talk) 17:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I expect people to read the signs of tension and seek a way to calm things down. Putting aside the matter of right and wrong in editing, etc, I think that if most editors were really annoyed about an article and found certain users were repeatedly coming here and complaining, it would make them less likely to change their ways. We have talk page discussions, RfCs, arbitration requests, potential mediation, several existing admin board threads - all open/available and yet we have new threads every day. It's getting out of control and I Write Stuff and other editors need to wait until at the very least the arbitration request is dealt with. John Smith's (talk) 18:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

John Smith, I suggest you tell Guy that as well. If it causes him to explode, who is at fault, Guy or I Write Stuff? Carcharoth (talk) 17:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Both. Guy should know better and I Write Stuff shouldn't be pressing the panic button every single time something like this happens. John Smith's (talk) 18:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

<shameless plug for my own essay>See WP:BAIT.</plug> Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

But you're right, Ray. People shouldn't take the bait and others shouldn't dangle it (even if they don't realise what they're doing, as sometimes people make things worse unintentionally). John Smith's (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to note I do not think Guy needs baiting to lash out, nor was I attempting to bait him. I was seeking recourse, I wanted to remove the content as clearly not helpful to the discussion, however I was worried about the back lash of doing so. I was honestly hoping, someone who was already aware of this issue, would simply remove the comments as clearly not helpful, and as Guy further venting. I refuse to address these items directly, as admin participation has not been by the book on the article, I rather not see myself cast into exile. --I Write Stuff (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Public domain images (old uploads)

I've recently noticed that some of our old public domain images (in some cases claimed, in other cases clearly PD) that were uploaded many years ago (2003, 2004, 2005) are being tagged and deleted for lack of sourcing information. The lack of sourcing information is in many cases because standards were less strict back then. A recent example is Image:Ac.ptolemy.jpg. There is a large backlog (over 11,000 images) at Category:PD tag needs updating, but many of these will be public domain, and indiscriminate tagging (along with some fixing), as seen here can quickly overwhelm things. It is important to get the workflow balanced right. See also here for an example of a retired editor where lots of tags were placed (some for disputed PD images, some for non-free images). I'd like to ask the advice of admins in general on how to handle this. I recently started a conversation here, but the reaction (saying that the criticism by me and others had been discouraging) actually discouraged me as well, as that editor is doing good work fixing images. I'm just worried that the line is being drawn in the wrong place. I would much prefer to motivate people to help fix images, rather than tag them for deletion when there is a large backlog and not enough people working on it. What can be done? Carcharoth (talk) 02:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You can help with June is Misplaced Pages Image Cleanup Month and YOU can help! which the whole purpose is "to motivate people to help fix images and educate so there isn't anything to fix". MECU≈talk 04:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem is that people cannot easily identify the articles and images in their sphere of interest that require attention. A little while ago I used CATSCAN to identify all the Western Australia-related articles with {{fact}} tags on them, and posted it on WT:WA. A number of people mobilised to attack the list, and about half of it got done in the course of a week or so. I reckon you would see the same effect for just about any combination of topic and maintenance category. For example if someone extracted a list of all the images of plants in Category:All images with unknown source and posted it to WT:PLANTS, you would see immediate action from members of that project.

A longer term solution is to subcategorise. We subcategorise our stubs, so that people can easily find stubs in their area of interest. I've never understood why we don't also subcategorise our maintenance categories. Category:Articles lacking sources is virtually useless, but Category:United States geography articles lacking sources would be very useful indeed, albeit to a much smaller class of editor.

Hesperian 04:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The major problem here lies in poorly written and/or poorly run bots and careless image patrollers who act like bots at the bot speed. It is a fact of life that some web-pages do go down every day. No source or a dead source is just as useless as far as we are concerned and we are not about to go through all images at WMF servers every day to update the status of the WWW when pages disappear or simply change. Even Betabot who can do wonders in term of speed, if not quality, can't scan the web every hour.

Sometimes, the image status is totally clear even if the source is dead. Being able to tell requires human attention and care. Bots can't do that. Human beings who tag dozens images per hour can't do that either. Image patrol is the job that requires utmost care and speed should not be an impediment. --Irpen 05:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, tagging images as "source needed" and deleting them when they are clearly public domain because of age, have a stated origin, but no ephemeral internet "source" URL is bloody absurd. I've been asking for ages for a place where I can make a noise about that, but nobody seems to know; meanwhile large numbers of useful images are being deleted. --Relata refero (disp.) 12:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Provide a list of examples of such images, and then I'll help kick up a fuss motivate people to do things slower and organise fixing efforts as opposed to tagging and deletion efforts. Carcharoth (talk) 12:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

There were plenty of examples. Here is just a recent one:

1. one, note the years of life of the guy and the image too.
2. two deletion nomination by Kelly
3. three anon adds a source
4. four deletion nom by MER-C because anon is a "banned user"
5. five rv by myself. with addition of proper tag and years of life that both Kelly and MER-C could see if they spent 10 seconds looking at the article and image
6. six. Still retagged for deletion (!) by Kelly per "db-banned"
7. seven, I revert spurious attack on WP content again and
8. eight have to explain to an image patroller some GFDL basics, that is myself being the last editor, being responsible for the image rather than whoever uploaded it, be it Jimbo or a banned troll
9. nine, patroller backs off the deletion urge and replaces a perfectly acceptable description to a bot-readable one for whatever reason.
10. ten, exhausted, I take a safety precaution.

Hopefully, now when someone copies this to commons, no one would have to rehash this circus there one more time. With {{KeepLocal}} the image is safe here. For now. --Irpen 17:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice description. Thanks. That is a particularly egregious example of rules-lawyering gone mad. Do you have any more examples of images, though? Both ones that are still here and ones that were deleted? Carcharoth (talk) 17:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Easy:

1. one, PD image (again, just look at it and the subject's years of life)
2. two, ifd by Kelly
3. three, anon adds source and a year, 1908 (!)
4. four, again ifd by Kelly who replaces a source with a no-source tag (!)
5. five, anon reverts egregious carelessness
6. six, ifd by MER-C
7. seven, anon reverts
8. eight, umpteenth ifd by Kelly
9. nine, this stupidity gets noticed by me, and, hopefully fixed
10. ten, Kelly adds a bot-read tag
11. eleven, I add more info and a safety precaution again.

More? --Irpen 18:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Yes please. I wasn't aware of all this CSD#G5 stuff going on in the background. I agree it doesn't matter who uploaded the image. Ideally, sources will give a provenance for the image. Websites should say where they got the image from, and artworks can be drawn today of long-dead people, so it is when it was published, not the dates of the subject, that matters. With photographs, you have a clearer argument that the photograph was taken and published in the lifetime of the subject. But even with the artworks, I would still say that insisting on deletion is cutting our nose off to spite our face. If you want to do timelines, fine, but I was hoping for a clear set of 8-10 separate images where deletion is being threatened inappropriately. Carcharoth (talk) 18:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Here we go - a random sampling:

• Image:Auto Square Sign 2.jpg - who took the photo? Correctly tagged.
• Image:Breakers, Vanderbilt.jpg - from an old postcard. But how old? This building is still standing.
• Image:Bromeliad with flower spike.jpg - PD-self.
• Image:Brutus2dIDE.gif - fairly obvious imagevio
• Image:Burnout2 Truck Glitch.JPG - another imagevio
• Image:CNV00002.JPG - probably PD-self but it's a vanity pic

Questionable taggings:

• Image:Asotus Cambridge 1566.jpg - probably PD due to age, but definitely needs a description so we know what this is.
• Image:Beethoven - Piano Concerto No. 3, Op. 37 - Movement 2 - Adagio.mid - ? It depends on whether the creator added enough originality.
• Image:AmazingGrace.ogg - incorrectly tagged. Should try a search first, then if unsuccessful tag "bad source".
• Image:Aleksander Jan Jablonowski.jpg - incorrectly tagged but should have a source so we can find a higher resolution image and learn more about the painting.
• Image:Aleksander Korwin Gosiewski (-1639).jpg - ditto.
• Image:Archibaldcleghorn.jpg - same as Amazing Grace above.

It'd be great if people actually added a description to the image page, then most of the above problems can be avoided. MER-C 04:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Daniel Lièvre

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Do we really need a particularly active (across a number of websites he is trying to get included in articles as sources) pro-pedophilia activist causing more disruption and waste of good-faith editor time on Misplaced Pages? Especially one who encourages users banned for PPA and soliciting minors to sue the Wikimedia foundation? John Nevard (talk) 02:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Assuming it's the same person, he is a leading PPA on forums like BoyChat and has participated in discussions about promoting the pro-pedophile agenda on Misplaced Pages. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I spent all of five minutes Googling up Daniel Lièvre and had enough. Yeah, there are discussions regarding pro-pedophilia, disguised under some minor -> adult relationship (or something along those lines) and other nonsense on other forums and blogs, including his own. seicer | talk | contribs 03:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not he is the same person, he's announced himself as that person - even if he's not, the use of that name is provocative, to put it mildly. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 03:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked. east.718 at 03:15, April 27, 2008

Ban proposal

Ban this user. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

He's probably effectively banned already - is there any administrator who's going to unblock someone with the word "pedophilia" in their block log? Hersfold 19:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

His block is very unfair, you just blocked him because you don't like paedophiles. Like he said paedophilia is not illegal, and while it may disgust us, he should be entitled to his opinion. Of course if he is trying to unfairly push his own point of view in articles then he deserves a block, but if he is trying to build consensus to support his point of view that should be fine. Like he said paedophilia is not illegal, only things such as child rape, or sex with minors is, freedom of thought is paramount, paedophilia is a recognised mental illness. As long as he is not violating 3RR or spamming I don't see why he was blocked, even less banned. I hope he wasn't blocked because of a dislike of paedophiles, this has never been a reason for blocking, blocking for ideological differences or dislike of handicapped people should not be tolerated. Also you should be ashamed to take the content on wikisposure as truth. And finally his strain of thought is not rejected by everyone in France far from it: read French petitions against age of consent laws, they were signed by many politicians and well known intellectuals, including Jack Lang who later became minister of education. Jackaranga (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd unblock if there was any sign of useful contributions to articles. --Carnildo (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Also his block log is unfair, none of the people engaged in 3RR over all the "accusations of state terrorism by country ..." articles got a block log saying "terrorism related disruption" Jackaranga (talk) 20:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

If you don't know anything about Pedophilia read the article, nowhere does it say it is illegal. Jackaranga (talk) 20:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm archiving this discussion, as ArbCom have stressed in the past that sensitive discussions regarding blocked possible pro-pedophilia accounts should not be discussed on-wiki. Please direct any further questions or concerns to them. krimpet✽ 21:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

In The News

Hi guys. I'm not sure where most of the "regular" ITN-updating admins have run off to, but there are a few items on ITN/C that seem to have consensus to go on the live mainpage template. I'm talking specifically about the Nepal Elections and the Bamyan Oil Paintings. A few minutes of help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Random89 05:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Template updated. --Tone 07:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Spencer 17:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Susanbryce

I'd like to request User:Susanbryce be officially warned or reminded of Misplaced Pages's WP:COPYVIO policy.

Even after another editor pointed out to this user on their talk page (Dated:17:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)) on the Street_Children_in_The_Philippines article that they shouldn't do this, this editor still made a recent edit (Dated: 15:25, 22 April 2008) to an article that was essentially a cut and paste from the article it cited. The section read poorly and does not even make sense given the previous sentence in the article.

Human_trafficking_in_the_Philippines#Angeles

The following text:

Angeles Mayor Francis Nepomuceno has acknowledged the problem. “We admit having HIV cases and that prostitution may be flourishing". STD cases rose five times. The RHWC treated 1,421 cases in 2005, 2,516 cases in 2006 and 6,229 cases in 2007. Most of the afflicted were women.

is cut and pasted from this article.

As I am going through the Human trafficking in the Philippines Misplaced Pages entry even more, I am finding additional WP:COPYVIO violations which I am documenting in the talk page.

I've also found one in the Makati section of the article which I haven't documented on the talk page yet.

HurryTaken (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation is only a direct cut-and-paste from a copyrighted source. The passage you provide, and the linked article, do not match exactly. The use of specific numerical figures and/or direct quotes from within a work is allowed so long as it isn't a copy and paste, which it is not in this case. VanTucky 19:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess I am little confused. What I have found evidence of is a lot of cut and pasting from other sources and very little original and/or re-written work. This is often patched together in order to build a new Misplaced Pages article or sections of it. But a large percentage of the text is a direct cut and paste.

For example. The sentence: "Angeles Mayor Francis Nepomuceno has acknowledged the problem."

This line is a direct cut and paste from the cited article.

The sentence: "The RHWC treated 1,421 cases in 2005, 2,516 cases in 2006 and 6,229 cases in 2007. Most of the afflicted were women."

This is again a direct cut and paste from the article. But stitched together from different areas of the article.

The actual article says: "The RHWC treated 1,421 cases in 2005, 2,516 cases in 2006 and 6,229 cases in 2007. Most of the afflicted were women; there were only 69 men among the recorded cases."

So they cut and paste and then just ended the sentence at women.

I have additional examples as well that I have posted on the discussion page.

In the Pampanga section of the same Human Trafficking article. The passage in the Misplaced Pages article reads: "More than a dozen of cybersex operations have been busted in the Pampanga province and Angeles City areas, this resulted in the rescue of hundreds of exploited women, most of them minors or below 18-years of age. Human trafficking or trafficking in person is some sort of slavery.Hundreds of computers sets have been seized, including sex toys and other gadgets used in the cybersex operations mostly maintained by foreigners. A forum hosted by the Prosecution Law Enforcement and Community Coordinating Service (proleccs) discussed several factors that contribute to the human trafficking problem and these include poverty, the proliferation of underground cybersex through internet and sex tourism.."

If you go to the source cited. :::Judiciary, PNP vow stop to human trafficking

"In the past years, more than a dozen of cybersex operations have been busted in the province and in nearby Angeles City areas, this also resulted in the rescue of hundreds of exploited women, most of them minors or below 18-years of age."

This was re-written slightly by omitting or adding a few words.

This line is a direct cut and paste from the article.

"Human trafficking or trafficking in person is some sort of slavery."

This line is a direct cut and paste from the article.

"Hundreds of computers sets have been seized, including sex toys and other gadgets used in the cybersex operations mostly maintained by foreigners."

The last line about a forum being hosted is a stitched cut and paste.

The source says: ..."a forum hosted by the Prosecution Law Enforcement and Community Coordinating Service (proleccs).

And then in another paragraph of the article ..."discussed several factors that contribute to the human trafficking problem and these include poverty, the proliferation of underground cybersex through internet and sex tourism."

If this is not a copyright violation, so be it. But large percentages are being cut and pasted. Sometimes a word is added or sometimes it is stitched together, but the main written text is mostly copied.

I have documented other examples as well on the talk page of that article. The work of checking each of the sources is tedious. If what is being said is that this practice is mostly acceptable for Misplaced Pages, I will stop checking.

HurryTaken (talk) 20:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Without deciding whether to call it copyvio or not, I am pretty sure this is too close to be acceptablehere, thpough I do note that this editor is hardly the only one to contribute to Misplaced Pages in this manner; I agree that the editor should be advised to rewrite the material more extensively. DGG (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is my last example, just so the list on what I have researched is complete.

The Makati section of the Human_trafficking_in_the_Philippines#Makati reads, "In 2003, Makati Mayor Jejomar C. Binay ordered a crackdown against prostitution following reports that some prostitutes are linked to criminal syndicates.33 women were rescued from a sex trafficking operation in Makati City by a team of National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) agents. The Chief of the Southern Police District deployed policemen in schools in Makati City following the abductions of children by those involved in the sex trade industry. P/Supt. Manuel Cabigon, SPD director, said the increased police presence in the vicinity of schools would deter members of a flesh trade syndicate from further pursuing their illegal activities."

Link to source 54 More Cops Deployed vs Sex Gang

What I am am discussing is the text between source 53 and 54. Bold text.

In this case, we actually have a source citing a source. The source cited in Misplaced Pages is PREDA, which in turn is citing (actually copied) a Philippine Daily Inquirer article.

The second paragraph of the source says, "P/Supt. Manuel Cabigon, SPD director, said the increased police presence in the vicinity of schools would deter members of a flesh trade syndicate from further pursuing their illegal activities."

This is a direct cut and paste.

The first paragraph is re-written. The source cited says, "THE CHIEF of the Southern Police District yesterday deployed policemen in schools in Makati City following the abduction of a 15-year-old high school student on Tuesday."

HurryTaken (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Pardon me if my tin foil hat is on too tightly, but do you happen to be User:RodentofDeath? See also WP:AE#RodentofDeath and Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/RodentofDeath, although the RFCU data appears stale. MER-C 05:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

No. I am not Rodent of Death. And I really am at a loss for how I can prove that I am not. At this point I guess it is mostly out of my hands. However, the editor that is the subject of this WP:AN has already reported me to WP:AE#RodentofDeath, per the link you provided above. Edgarde has already chimed in that he thinks I am Rodent of death. Again, I am not. But those two seem to think I am. I honestly don't believe that this makes the issues I have brought up any less legitimate. And I have admitted to knowing and being familiar with the history between the two as I have followed it as lurker for quite some time. That is especially why I have taken great pains to be as factual as possible with my questions and concerns and stick strictly to the facts. HurryTaken (talk) 05:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

account identification

Hi. There is an old account I think may be mine but my password attempts failed and the requested new password did not arrive. It may have an old email address that I no longer have access to, and I may be able to prove it to an admin who can see the account info. Can we try, or is a new account my only option? I use that id elsewhere in cyberspace and really like it; I would hate to have to give it up. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.11.32 (talk) 20:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Ummm... I'm not sure. I will ask the community;

Community, is it possible for this anon to email a CheckUser with the name of the account and the possible email address (and likely geographical area for the underlying ip) to confirm whether this could be an old account? If it is very likely, would the ip then be able to usurp the account? LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK, checkuser can't see email addresses, but even if there is still any checkuser data left, the IP is a dynamic IP on a /12 range probably shared by every Verizon user in Washington D.C. Its pretty unlikely that the IP and the account could be confirmed to be the same person. Mr.Z-man 20:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

A developer could read the e-mail address straight out of the database tables, but I expect they have many better things to do with their time. Try Special:Emailuser/Tim Starling, and be very appreciative :D. Happy‑melon 22:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous user needs an account to use email function, though. Does anyone know Starling's real email address? hbdragon88 (talk) 23:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocking to end a discussion?

In this edit an administrator threatened to block users who continue a discussion s/he doesn't like. This seems to me to be problematic: the ability to block doesn't exist to impose silence or "closure" on a discussion, but rather to prevent damage to the project. Any thoughts? --FOo (talk) 21:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggest following the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Statement_re_Wikilobby_campaign and/or moving any further discussion to the talk page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Awesome report, and excellent work. But it's not relevant to the concern I raised above: that admins shouldn't be threatening to block people for continuing a discussion they don't like. --FOo (talk) 23:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

He didn't threaten to block for continuing it, he threatened to block for "further non-constructive posting" after a thread at the bottom of the page reached consensus that the page had turned into a giant troll magnet. That's not inappropriate at all. --erachima talk 00:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Flickr accounts and contacting photographers

Sorry for posting this in the wrong place. Need some help with contacting a Flickr photographer in a case of image management burnout. See here, and here. Would anyone here be willing to contact the Flickr photographer who posted this, and ask for more permissive releases for that photo and the other three listed at PUI? And is there a place to make such requests? Carcharoth (talk) 23:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I've sent a flickr mail. Gimmetrow 23:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG is required to provide a means for the Community to verify his sources.

5) For the next year:

• PHG is required to provide a means for the Community to verify his sources. For the next year:

• PHG is required to use sources that are in English and widely available.

and/or

• PHG is required to use a mentor to assist with sourcing the articles that he edits. The mentors selected must be approved by the Arbitration Committee. In case of doubt raised by another user in respect of a source or citation by PHG, the mentors' views shall be followed instead of those of PHG.

• • the above clarification to the case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance was passed by the arbitration committee. PHG may choose either or both options here. Case page has been updated and PHG has been notified. For the committee... — Rlevse • Talk • 23:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

User:MZMcBride and large numbers of deletions

Recently I have become concerned about the sheer number of deletions (literally hundreds in the past week alone: see log) carried out by MZMcBride, especially as a number are borderline-WP:CSD. A quick glance at his talk page shows that almost every message is complaining about a page he has deleted; however, these complaints are from a mixture of not just new users, but also experienced contributors and even other administrators. Particularly, I'm concerned that this user is either being overzealous, or taking the speedy deletion criteria a little too literally sometimes and could do with a lesson in WP:IAR.

Some specific examples:

• Deletion of accidentally-named user subpages. For instance, User:Hammersfan GoLondon/Dutchflyer, User:Hammersfan London Broad Street and User:Hammersfan City & Hertfordshire, were clearly meant as user-subpages created by User:Hammersfan, but for some reason (probably by accident) without the "/" to create a subpage. So, MZMcBride deleted them. Instead of just deleting them as "csd u2", the creator should have been notified, so that the pages could be moved to an appropriate place.
• Similarly, User:Qz3 appears to prefer to be known as "Algonquin" (as suggested by their signature) , and thus had was using User:Qz3 (Algonquin) as a user page. Of course, this was deleted under CSD U2 as well, when it should probably just have been moved to the right place with a note left to say why this isn't the right thing to do.
• Here's another one: User:Majoreditor\Utilities (log): the wrong type of slash could have been fixed without deleting the page first!
• Or what about deleting archived user talk that was accidentally in the talk: namespace rather than the user talk: namespace: Talk:T. Anthony/Women in Red, Talk:T. Anthony/Missing Africans, and Talk:T. Anthony/Missing Awards and their winners. Again, these should have been moved rather than deleted.
• Deletion of talk pages of deleted articles, where the talk page was specifically kept. See Talk:The weather in London ( log) and Talk:Classical music in popular culture (log).
• Deletion of image redirects: see this discussion.
• Deletion of empty categories. Yes, I'm aware that CSD C1 says that empty categories can be deleted. However, Category:Railway stations served by Southeastern which I created as part of a series (see subcategories of Category:UK railway stations by train operating company) and was populating by AWB runs. Due to other, off-wiki commitments (and a dead computer) I hadn't got around to filling this one, so it went under CSD C1; a quick check of the parent category should have revealed this was a work in progress. So I had to recreate it, causing extra work for myself.
• Also, the deletion if categories that exist for maintenance purposes, and thus which are empty from time to time, such as Category:Wikipedia_requested_photographs_in_Brown_County,_Illinois (log).

In many cases, the problem is subsequently repaired, but it would have saved everybody trouble if it had not been created in the first place. However, some of the (often perfectly legitimate) complaints often result in responses which are grumpy and sarcastic, such as this (and my request for an apology was just plain ignored).

I would be interested to know what other admins think of this. --RFBailey (talk) 00:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Heh. This user is upset because I deleted a category that sat empty for a month, and they're now trying to use AN to cast me in a negative light. Pretty pathetic. I do a lot of deletions, which logically means that the number of talk page posts that I get about them is higher than normal. However, I'm always quick to reply to any user's concerns. In almost all cases, the issue is someone else making a mistake (creating user pages that don't belong to a registered user, getting confused about broken redirects, etc.). If anyone has any valid concerns about my deletions, feel free to post on my talk page (it seems to be quite a popular thing to do ; - ) ). --MZMcBride (talk) 00:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, people run to AN in efforts to create more unnecessary drama. All of these deletions are justifiable, as evident from the reasons that they were deleted. Don't bring users here because of your personal grudges. Read the policies, guidelines and procedures, and understand them, and if you have questions about an administrator action, ask the administrator. What do you hope to accomplish here? I think there is an encyclopedia that needs writing around here somewhere. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what happened to WP:AGF? I'm not trying to create drama, I don't hold grudges, and I certainly don't like being described as "pathetic". I am fully aware of the criteria for speedy deletion (I admit to not being able to remember which one is which off the top of my head, but I know where to go to look them up); I have been an editor here for nearly three years and I know the policies pretty well. But I am also aware of ignore all rules, and when it should be applied.

What did I hope to achieve? I wanted to bring genuine, valid concerns that I had to the attention of other administrators, which I what this page is for, as I have done when I have had concerns before. I know that this is "not the Misplaced Pages complaints department". I am not an admin, but I watch the administrators' noticeboard and I know the sort of nonsense people bring here. In response to MZMcBride, I did bring the matter to his talk page , but all I got in response was something grumpy and dismissive ; my follow-up remarks (which were meant in good faith) were ignored.

Also, MZMcBride's reply, where he says "In almost all cases, the issue is someone else making a mistake" is symptomatic of the issue/attitude that I was trying to discuss. Yes, some of the items I mentioned above were the mistakes of others (e.g. use of a forward space instead of a slash, not understanding username policy), but they could have been corrected without irritating people by deleting pages/categories/etc. which later had to be moved/restored/recreated. And yes, the deletions I described above were all within policy, but only marginally. To emphasise, each mistake which led to a minor policy violation could have been solved my a means other than deletion. By all means, speedy delete nonsense pages, implausible redirects, etc. But when something becomes a policy violation because of a technicality, then that should be handled with more care, I think.

Finally: yes, there is an encyclopaedia that needs writing around here, but deleting bits of it unnecessarily doesn't help with that. --RFBailey (talk) 01:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Our job is not to go around correcting every other user's mistakes. If a page or category has sat empty for a month, then there is a great need to remove the category. If the user hasn't stepped up to the plate to correct these mistakes -- which often go unnoticed for months, then it stands that deleting it can work just as well. Simply put, these are the mistakes of others, not of administrators whose job is purely that of a janitor. Anyone who has done the dirty work of removing crap or unnecessary fodder from Misplaced Pages -- whether it is test pages, vandalism, empty categories, copyrighted images, and so forth -- will soon realize that not all will appreciate the efforts that are taken to keep Misplaced Pages manageable. I can't remember the number of times I've been criticized for deleting a page and yada yada, but it's just part of the territory.

Could it be handled with more care? Maybe. But there are way too many test pages, empty categories and other garbage that needs to be taken out, and pandering to every little instance of someone crying wolf or complaining that their personal web-page was deleted doesn't help either. There are appropriate venues for un-deletions -- and coming to AN for every little instance (and I'm not talking about you RFBailey, but in general) isn't very constructive. seicer | talk | contribs 03:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem (maybe this is a problem with policy more than anything else), is that deleting content has the side-effect of rubbing people up the wrong way, and doesn't always look as if good faith has been assumed. True, adminstrators are not responsible for fixing others' mistakes, and there is an awful lot of crap, as you put it, out there. However, if in the course of their duties, an administrator comes across a mistake that can be easily corrected, then why not correct the mistake rather than delete a page which may then need to be taken to deletion review, or recreated, or whatever, destroying good will in the process?

Besides all of that, when a user makes a good-faith post on this page, I don't think they should be shouted at for it, and certainly not described as "pathetic" (what happened to WP:NPA?). Where else would you suggest bringing such an issue for administrators' attention? --RFBailey (talk) 03:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that RFBailey is entirely in the wrong. I think that deletion is really more of a last resort thing. Wrong slash? Just move it. No slash? Move it. Empty category? Can it be populated first? MZMcBride is doing a great job, but I think that there are alternatives besides deletion when it comes to housekeeping. bibliomaniac15 Do I have your trust? 03:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Seriously, Seicer, we are not that busy — or, if we are, then we'd better urgently recruit more admins. I know fully well how tedious and thankless sweeping the dirty corners of Misplaced Pages is, but there should always be time to at least briefly engage your brain before performing an admin action. After all, in the cases like the user page deletions RFBailey mentioned, it would not have taken any more effort to move the page than to delete it, and doing so would've left much fewer bite marks on newbies.

Anyway, what exactly is that "great need" to remove empty categories you speak of? Sounds more like busywork to me. Certainly you're not freeing any precious server resources that way — any change made to Misplaced Pages, whether is be creating, editing or deleting pages, only causes the database to grow. It never shrinks. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 03:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to delete a misnamed page, rather than move it to the correct name. This shouldn't be at WP:AN, but only because it should only take a comment or two on a user talk page to change these deletion habits. The role of an admin is to correct mistakes, not look for excuses to delete. JPD (talk) 04:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The last time this came up, I did ask MZMcBride to stop his deletions of talk page redirects not linked from anywhere. He refused to do so, though recently CSD has been tightened up so that redirects (other than those created by housekeeping work) are explicitly not mentioning in WP:CSD#G6, so I hope MZMcBride takes note of that. One thing I did see at the time on his talk page was that Talk:T. Anthony/Women in Red, Talk:T. Anthony/Missing Africans, and Talk:T. Anthony/Missing Awards and their winners were moved, to User:T. Anthony/Women in Red, User:T. Anthony/Missing Africans, and User:T. Anthony/Missing Awards and their winners. But as RFBailey points out, a little bit of clue first would have avoided the "delete-talk page thread-undelete-move" sequence. I also recall WJBScribe objecting to these deletions in general (referring to those by East718). The trouble here is that this is an obscure activity on obscure pages - no-one really gets upset enough to justify MZMcBride being asked to stop, but equally it could be said that his work is not really helping in any useful sense of the word. It seems that MZMcBride just wants to avoid discussing deletions that he feels are "obvious". I suggest he actually discuss a few of them and see if they are as obvious as he thinks. Carcharoth (talk) 05:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I discuss deletions with nearly every user who posts to my talk page. I posted to AN a few weeks ago asking about the user pages that don't belong to a user. I didn't see three or four admins willing to help out then. But you all feel free to take pot shots at the work I'm doing (all of which is within policy) rather than help out when asked. As I recall, when I posted the list of user pages, several users replied, most complaining about the workload, with a few wondering if a bot could do the work for them.

I ran a few numbers. Assuming that every <h2> on my talk page for the month of April is a complaint about a deletion (of course, not all of them were), I've had 80 complaints. During the month of April, I've deleted 30,530 pages. 80 out of 30,530, and nobody's complaining that they were out of process, though someone is complaining that I should "Ignore all rules" more often and not delete them. That's pretty interesting.

When I explain to users what their mistakes were, the usual response is "Oh, Ok. Thanks for the clarification." or "Thanks I'll fix the \ to a /" or "Many thanks - I see the problem now." or "Thank you so much for fixing the link!"

I have a list of several thousand user talk pages that don't correspond to a registered user. They're here. Any volunteers to help out? --MZMcBride (talk) 06:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not try and analyse the list? Follow redirects for a start (those things you delete because they are unhelpful). User talk:Cimon avaro/archive 4 should be at User talk:Cimon Avaro/archive 4. Compare this and this. User talk:Jtdirl/Archive 7 is now a redirect because it got moved (I guess you will end up deleting that redirect in a few weeks as part of "housekeeping", right?). All the pages with "\" in them could be split off into one section. Just presenting a huge list like that doesn't actually encourage people to get involved - it puts them off. So analyse a bit more, break it into bite-sized chunks, and you will get a better response. Carcharoth (talk) 07:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I can only surmise from your tone and the content of your post that you're under the influence. Neither User talk:Cimon avaro/archive 4 nor User talk:Jtdirl/Archive 7 are redirects, though apparently I'm supposed to be able to follow them? And apparently grep is a precious commodity only given out to the Chosen? Ohs, Imma so sorry massa for not betta analysin' the list. Is they anythin' else I can doos for ya? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

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