Revision as of 08:25, 18 June 2008

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Edit this section for new requests

Vassyana trying to referee

While I have respect for Vassyana as a person, I think this administrator has imposed a rather ridiculous set of arbitrary standards on me that will make this noticeboard light up. in particular he has tried to claim that I inappropriately edited psychic and spoon bending here: . Both of these articles are on my watch list and I have edited Psychokinesis in the past with respect to spoon bending and I have edited . My work on Misplaced Pages is to make sure that people do not violate WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV. I am not stalking Martinphi, but this kind of absurd monitoring is unreasonable since I work in a variety of areas. Note also that Vassyana did not comment on the actual edits (as to whether they were justified by out content guidelines) but seems unusually obsessed with who was making the edits rather than what the edits actually are. This is unreasonable. I strenuously object and will continue to raise the issue until someone explains to me some justification for not making edits simply based on who has edited an article previously.

Thank you.

ScienceApologist (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

This set of restrictions applies equally to ScienceApologist and Martinphi. Please see: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Spoon bending and psychic. Vassyana (talk) 18:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I have directed Vassyana to no longer warn me on my talk page. Pursuant to the note I left at the restriction page, I do not monitor which individual is making a specific diff. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

No accepting intervention by an uninvolved admin that is enforcing an arbCom restriction is unacceptable and in itself a violation of the imposed restrictions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not an ArbCom restriction. See: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/User:MartinPhi. Vassyana (talk) 20:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I see. Refactored my comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Alansohn, uncivil, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith

Arbcom decision: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes#Alansohn restricted. "Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be briefly blocked..."

Violation diff here.

• Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "repeated reverts has been done in arbitrary fashion by User:RedSpruce" -- claiming that my edits are arbitrary, despite vast amounts of discussion in which I have justified my edits.
• Assumption of bad faith: "repeated good faith edits to expand and source these articles were used as an excuse to initiate the litigation" -- claiming I used "an excuse" to initiate litigation.

RedSpruce (talk) 13:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Volation diff # 2:

• Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "RedSpruce's edit history for nearly a month has consisted almost exclusively of reverting edits to "his" articles..." -- false and unsupported accusation that I claim ownership of articles.

RedSpruce (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been following this, and I think RedSpruce's behaviour needs to improve as well. Some of the edits made by RedSpruce have been wholesale reverts. I'm not saying Alansohn's behaviour is excusable, merely that there is more than one side to this and, eventually, something will need to be done about RedSpruce's behaviour. RedSpruce has said: "Sometimes when I remove their garbage edits I take the time to filter in the good edits. Other times it just doesn't seem worth the effort, because I know that my time and effort will just be undone by a revert." This attitude of reverting the good with the bad (especially when the "bad" is debatable - the arbcom case, quite rightly, did not deliver a verdict on that) is not acceptable for a collaborative editing environment. RedSpruce, if you want others to work with you, you have to hold yourself to the high standards you expect of others. Carcharoth (talk) 13:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Carcharoth, the ArbCom restriction was against Alansohn, not me. If you think that decision was in error, take it up with them. RedSpruce (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• The same Arbcom case found that RedSpruce calling me an "idiot" and a "moron" was not uncivil. Any incivility by anyone else has to be measured by that yardstick from now on. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• User:RedSpruce has finally come clean and admitted that "Alansohn and Richard Arthur Norton have made quite a few valid and worthwhile edits to the articles in question.... Sometimes when I remove their garbage edits I take the time to filter in the good edits. Other times it just doesn't seem worth the effort." (see here). I and other editors have made repeated edits to expand, improve and source the articles in question; User:RedSpruce has in turn simply reverted the changes, with edit summary justifications rationalizations of "rv; see endless discussion elsewhere", "restoring to better version", "rv for the usual reasons", just plain "rv" and no other explanation", no explanation at all, and my personal favorite RV to version _I_ choose to call "stable". RedSpruce has cynically abused Misplaced Pages process to enforce his ownership of these articles, and he's back at it again. RedSpruce's edit history for nearly a month has consisted almost exclusively of reverting edits to "his" articles and shrill complaints that it's everybody else's fault. It's time to deal with User:RedSpruce once and for all. Alansohn (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
  • All one has to do is look at User:RedSpruce's first claim to see that he is trying to game the system - Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "repeated reverts has been done in arbitrary fashion by User:RedSpruce". It is RedSpruce himself who has clearly acknowledged that he can't be bothered to pick out what he admits are "good edits" from the ones he has decided as "garbage edits". All of his edits to the articles in question over the past month have reverted back to "his" version of the articles, regardless of the quality of changes made by any other editor. This is the very definition of the word "arbitrary". The word "his" has been placed in quotations to demonstrate that RedSpruce has shown no willingness to find any edit as acceptable; every single edit has been reverted by RedSpruce back to "his" version, the very definition of taking WP:OWNership of an article. Alansohn (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

For violating the restrictions of the footnotes case, specifically harassment, trolling, and bad faith at , , , , , , I have blocked him for 31 hours and added it to the case block summary. MBisanz 03:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Does this board really ignore the other side of a dispute when that side is not the subject of an ArbCom remedy? That seems a remarkably bureaucratic way of doing things. I will leave a warning for RedSpruce in any case, even though that is not related to arbitration enforcement. Carcharoth (talk) 07:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Well if one has broken a policy or done something wrong, then we call him out on it, warn, then block, if the subject has additionally been sanctioned by Arbcom, then that leash of what is acceptable behavior is even shorter. In any event, I think there is an ANI thread addressing RedSpruce's actions, and this thread addressing Alansohn, each in its proper place, I was dealing with this one and and not that one. MBisanz 07:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I have more concerns than this though. I've been reading through the edits you provided to justify your block. In general, providing a long list of "breaches" and a laundry list of charges "harassment, trolling, and bad faith" is not helpful. What would be better is to say specifically what you find problematic about each edit. In particular, which ones are trolling, which are harassment and which are bad faith? I read those edits, and I don't see the problems you describe. I see someone raising issues that need to be discussed, not brushed under the carpet. Carcharoth (talk) 08:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, lets do this the long way Alansohn and Rlevse disagreed on the content of an article, they brought the dispute to Arbcom as part of the Footnoted quotes matter, Rlevse and Alansohn presented evidence indicating the other person had violated various policies in their edits. Arbcom found that Alansohn's overall conduct violated policy. As a result, it issued special sanctions on him.

Within hours of the case closing, he was accusing Rlevse abusing BLP], posting a case study railing at Rlevse at an unrelated page, reposting another summary of his issue with Rlevse at the same unrelated page. When questioned on why he is reposting the same matter, he responds that it may continue until the article is changed. Then brings it up a third time at the unrelated page in an unrelated thread], additionally, he reinserted himself in the debate at Rlevse's talk page, citing the same evidence he had at the arbcom in subsequent posts to the user talk page and assuming further bad faith to Rlevse's actions.

To me this is trolling a dead issue and harassing Rlevse by continuing to dredge up a dead issue at his talk page, while assuming bad faith. I'll note another admin does not disagree with this block, and given the short leash Arbcom placed him on, I feel it was entirely warranted. MBisanz 08:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Banu Qurayza and Palestine-Israel articles

User:Shell Kinney notified users Str1977 and Bless sins that their edits to Banu Qurayza are covered by the editing restrictions implemented by the ArbCom under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. Several people, including myself, have asked Shell Kinney on their talk page why they believe the article falls under the scope of that ArbCom decision, but received no satisfactory answer. I inquired Shell Kinney whether other instances when Muslims massacred Jews in the Middle Ages (like 1066 Granada massacre) must also count as Palestine-Israel articles, but again, Kinney's response was far from clear. While the ArbCom apparently wants Palestine-Israel topic area to be interpreted broadly, extending it to events that predate the conflict by about 1,300 years looks like an overstretch. Beit Or 20:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was pretty clear; I felt due to the subject of the article, the historical dispute over the accuracy of accounts and the obvious undercurrents in the current article dispute that it is, while historical, an aspect that would be covered by the Israel-Arab conflict case. I would be happy to go into further detail if any of that explanation is unclear. Even an editor who showed up to argue against its inclusion under this umbrella had to agree that the subject was polemical and disputed along those same lines . As I said in my reply, as to the other article I was asked about, I am completely unfamiliar with it and can't speak intelligently as to whether or not it would fall in the same dispute. I didn't look into that question farther, since honestly, I'm not sure mentioning that other article was supposed to relate, unless its a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS type argument.

While I welcome additional input and clarification of the applicable case, its interesting that the editor question was not involved in the dispute nor was he notified of the case. If anyone would like further background on the current dispute and problematic behavior that led to these notifications, please let me know and I'll put together an overview. Shell 20:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

If said massacre still has contemporary repercussions, or if the editors involved in the dispute are also part of the same set who fight over Israeli-Palestinian articles, then yes, the arbitration case applies. If not, no. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 21:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The wording from the arbcom case is:

area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted.

I'm not sure whether this applies. The article concerns a conflict between Arabs and Jews, but not (obviously) between Arabs and Israelis. We could request a clarification about this. In fact we could request the wording be broadened to include all Arab-Jew conflict-related articles. PhilKnight (talk) 22:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the word broadly is the only way this would be applicable and its possible that I'm misunderstanding or over-reaching what the ArbCom meant by that decision; part of my consideration here was several parties comments (some unvinvolved) that indicated the incident the article describes is still a point of contention between Arabs and Jews and that the current dispute on the article seems to fall squarely on those lines. It seems that there is a division among scholars about the actual events and who was a fault; the current edit warring and incivil behavior stems from the two parties who were warned taking the side of one set of scholars or another and making this article their battleground to hash out those differences. Shell 00:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how this article would fall under the Palestine-Israel article restriction. "Broadly" has its limits, and this historical dispute is certainly out scope. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom case was P-I disputes. Even broadly interpreted, I do not believe that should include the superset of all Jewish-Muslim disputes. While there is a strong correlation between positions of editors in contentious Palestinian-Israeli articles and corresponding positions in contentious Jewish-Muslim articles, to extend the arbcom remedy to the latter would be overreaching in my understanding of both the spirit and letter of the arbcom judgement. -- Avi (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

What would be the damage in broadly interpreting the ruling? From my point of view, if there is disruption on an article that might fall under the ArbCom case, then it makes sense to use the case's ruling as a tool with which to help restore stability. This is a good thing. If we make a too narrow interpretation of the ruling though, then what? Take the long view here. If we say that no the case's restrictions don't apply, then it decreases the authority that uninvolved administrators have in an area of dispute, and sets the stage for a conflict that may have to escalate through the various stages of dispute resolution until it too can be an ArbCom case that takes months of time, to come up with effectively the same decision that the original case already did: "Disruptive editors should be told not to disrupt, and uninvolved administrators should use their best judgment to take actions to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." So why waste the time to quibble about exact wording, when we're talking about a very general sanction in the first place? If there were a specific remedy, such as, "This article cannot be edited for 90 days", then it might make sense to debate the finer points of which articles apply. But a general remedy such as "Uninvolved administrators can use their best judgment to restore order", isn't something that we should even really need to debate about. --Elonka 17:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Topical rulings have to have boundaries, or else one could conceivably extend them to any topic on Misplaced Pages. The usual kinds of remedies can deal with the issue at this particular article, no need to invoke the I-P remedies. Jayjg 01:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If there is disruption on the article, it must be dealt with just like any other disruption. No evidence has been presented so far that the subject of this article is relevant to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Beit Or 17:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

(<-)Elonka, disruption needs to be handled in the proper way, which in this case would appear to be sans any "extra" gravity lent by indirectly applying an ArbCom ruling. The ARbCom ruling seems to allow for an acceleration of the remedies applied, for example year-long blocks and article/topic bans are expressly mentioned, and these should not be applied to "regular" disruption in Jewish-Muslim disputes, when there is still hope that much lighter and shorter remedies may result in the defusing of the situation. Of course regular remedies and protective measures should be applied as per ANY article in the wiki, but the enhanced measures allowed for in I/P articles should not directly apply here in my understanding of the ruling. -- Avi (talk) 17:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Avi; Jewish-Muslim disputes are not automatically Israel-Palestine disputes. This article is about the former, not the latter. The uses of incidents surrounding the Banu Qurayza tribe to boster specific positions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are done in retrospect, and don't actually signal any real connection between what happened then and the present-day conflict. -- tariqabjotu 19:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Though it's probably impolitic for me to disagree with my mediator, I have to agree as well - a Jewish-Muslim dispute in the 7th century is not part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which began at the earliest, in the early 20th century. Jayjg 01:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Nah, you can disagree with anyone on Misplaced Pages, that's half the fun. Looks like the general feeling here is that this particular article falls outside the scope, though I would like to address one point Avi made. The point behind informing these editors of the case was not to speed up sanctions or avoid the bureaucratic process (though seriously, why wouldn't you when it improves Misplaced Pages?) but to lend more weight to my warnings that their specific behavior has been to arbcom before and was sanctioned. I did not follow up the notification with any kind of restriction nor try to apply any remedy and in fact, in cases where I've seen this arbitration ruling being used, I don't find that the norm is to apply long restrictions as Avi implies.

I think the most interesting part of all this is that simply notifying these editors who have been edit warring and generally incivil for more than 6 months now caused them to suddenly stop edit warring and be civil to each other. I wonder if something more formal and spelled out seems more "official" than typical friendly warnings and that's why it seems to work in cases where other things aren't working? Anyways, I appreciate all the opinions and the clarification that the Arb case isn't really about Arab-Israeli relations, but more about the specific disputes in the last century. If anyone who's more knowledgeable about the disputes surrounding this article or the Israel-Palestine disputes wants to leave some pointers on my talk page, or even point me at some good reading, I would greatly appreciate that as well. Shell 02:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Astrotrain

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

block 31 hours

• Astrotrain (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Astrotrain was places on a one revert per week as a result of the above arbcom, he has been warned before then about his use of the fromer Northern Ireland flag (a matter relating to the arbcom)User_talk:Astrotrain#Flag and has now been edit warning on Template:British flags Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I count three reverts in 3 days. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Giovanni33

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

blocked and then unblocked by Ryan only to edit arb pages applying to him

Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1/7 RR parole per . Broken on Atomic bombings of Japan as a form of state terrorism; (unmarked revert) and (marked revert) William M. Connolley (talk) 21:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

• Blocked for 72 hours and logged. Note that since G33 is the subject of another ongoing ArbCom case, I've offered to unblock if he promises to edit nowhere except for the ArbCom case pages for the duration of the block. MastCell  21:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
  • During a prior arbitration case I unblocked him for the specific purpose of arbitration, and he blatantly disregarded those terms. Durova 02:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Why isn't he just eating an indef block? How many times has he violated this restriction anyways? Jtrainor (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Since I've resigned the admin tools I have no direct power over that. Two things are worth noting, though. First, he's quite capable of communicating with the Committee via e-mail. Second, his block log states last fall that I specifically lifted an indefinite block on him for the sole purpose of arbitration. His subsequent edit history shows how quickly and prolifically he violated that stipulation. I cut him a lot of slack then. Don't think a second lease on AGF would be appropriate. Durova 03:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I also note that he is arguing on his talk page that since the two reverts were to different sections of the article, they don't count as a break of parole. Such false naivety doesn't bode well for any future promises William M. Connolley (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
        • That claim is also inaccurate. He restored the exact same sentence twice. His first revert covered more than one edit and he is using that to hide the full nature of the revert. Details on his talk page. Sentence starts on line 12. revert 1revert 2 (and to show they were reverts and not edits, revert 1revert 2--DHeyward (talk) 07:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
        • Note: G33 has removed my evidence from his talk page. Here it is. --DHeyward (talk) 14:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I have denied the request to unblock, as the block was appropriate, and as the arbcom case is in voting phase, and moving slowly, there is no great need for the user to participate in the case. They can use arbcom-l if anything needs to be urgently brought to the attention of the arbcom. John Vandenberg 08:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Re: why not an indefblock? I think one is warranted, but... the ArbCom remedies clearly state that the blocks may be escalating in length up to 1 week on the 5th infraction. This appears to be the 3rd (or so) time G33 has violated his ArbCom restriction, so the remedy explicitly disallows anything more than a 1-week block. So there you have it. MastCell  15:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

For the record, this is his fourth block for breaking parole - he has also broken parole on other occasions in the past and been let off/been allowed to self-revert. John Smith's (talk) 19:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this thread - I've unblocked Giovanni33 because he agreed to only edit the arbitration pages that involve him. This is in line with what we've done with users in the past, and MastCell said in his block message that he was fine with this. If he edits any other pages, then he should be swiftly reblocked. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

IP blocked one week by Jay

We have a problem with a rotating set of single purpose accounts and conspiracy theory advocates trying to whitewash the lead of this article. Could an uninvolved arbitrator administrator look at the edit history and dish out stern warnings as needed. Thank you very much. Jehochman 03:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Arthur appears to think that the IP address is User:Bov, who was already warned about editing disruptively. It doesn't help that he uses IP addresses, which makes it difficult to tell whether or not he should know better. --Haemo (talk) 21:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

While the four editors could be Bov it could also be one or two editors supporting someone who might or might not be him. A discrete ISP check first might have been more appropriate than an accusation. As Jehochman didn't see fit to support his claim with diffs I submit the following:
152.131.10.133 (Department of Veterans Affairs Washington D.C.) made the following edits:, , and between June 5 and June 12. 24.175.107.174 (Houston Texas ?)made one edit on June 12. 67.170.205.8 (San Francisco California ?) made the following edits: and on June 13. Go-here.nl made one edit on June 13.
Only one problem edit plus three edits that only moved a box to another location involved the lead while most look like grammatical edits. I think Jehochman is possibly over reacting as there was no revert war or overtly disruptive editing with the edits easily reverted without arguement. If they are Bov, what is the problem as long as he is not disruptive and accepts the reverts? While the 911 articles are peaceful we should be keeping it that way rather than creating conflict by threatening every one with WP:AE. Wayne (talk) 17:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Moving the box so that it sticks out below the bottom of the article is vandalism clearly harmful. They're definately "problem edits". And, as I pointed out in ANI, 67. made one edit correcting an error in copying one of Bov's edits on 7 June, before starting the problem edits (not just on this article) immediately after 152. was blocked for the second time. As the block should have expired by now, perhaps we should invite the parties to comment here? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

My apologies as I did not check to see what the moved box looked like. Did the editor also not check? He said in the comment "moved template to help clear up top of the page" and i've made bigger mistakes in good faith myself. However, I still say that even if all the edits were bad (which they were not) WP:AE is premature in this particular case. Wayne (talk) 11:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

@Jehochman: You are asking for the intervention of an "uninvolved arbitrator", but note that this noticeboard is for enforcement of ArbCom restrictions, by administrators. If what you need is a clarification from the ArbCom, you can do that at WP:RCAM. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That was a typo (or braino). I meant administrator. Jehochman 03:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked 67.170.205.8 (talk · contribs) for 24 hours due to this and other edit warring, and Go-here.nl (talk · contribs) is dangling near the edge of a long block as well. Locewtus (talk · contribs) came into this dispute after a long break, so they are probably a meat puppet, but the user has now been warned, and I think that is sufficient. Not much can be done about 152.131.10.133 (talk · contribs), as they havent edited since their last block expired. If it does start editing disruptively, a longer block might be in order. John Vandenberg 10:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)