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Jade, your 'compromise' was to put Morris on the page and not budge on that. My compromise was to have no last name to avoid edit wars between fans who insisted on 'Mason' and fans who insisted on 'Morris'. This was supported by some of the other editors who commented, but since you rejected that one flat out, Launchpad made a very good suggestion on going with an essay on wikipedia about ], stating that if it's not in the game itself, it's not on the article. You've also rejected this flat out, insisting on your slanted compromise. Since, as discussed, your 'proof' is unencyclopedic (this includes back of box, article on Konami USA guy, and letter you supposedly received from Konami USA) do you have other reasoning to not go with ] that follow wikipdeia rules and guidelines? --] (]) 14:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Jade, your 'compromise' was to put Morris on the page and not budge on that. My compromise was to have no last name to avoid edit wars between fans who insisted on 'Mason' and fans who insisted on 'Morris'. This was supported by some of the other editors who commented, but since you rejected that one flat out, Launchpad made a very good suggestion on going with an essay on wikipedia about ], stating that if it's not in the game itself, it's not on the article. You've also rejected this flat out, insisting on your slanted compromise. Since, as discussed, your 'proof' is unencyclopedic (this includes back of box, article on Konami USA guy, and letter you supposedly received from Konami USA) do you have other reasoning to not go with ] that follow wikipdeia rules and guidelines? --] (]) 14:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

::''Jade and Mr. 88, if you want to continue to make accusations of sockpuppetry: gather your evidence, ] and wait on a ruling.''
:I would, but I don't have an account and don't wish to create one (especially not just for ''that''). Besides, I was under the impression this would be investigated during the mediation. ] (]) 14:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
* Everyone who edits on Misplaced Pages should have an account :-) The issue at hand really was NOT the sockpupptery - that is NOT a mediation cabal thing, as it's much more serious. If you believe it, then put in a case about it. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 15:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:13, 10 July 2008

Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal
ArticleSilent Hill
Statusopen
Request date04:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Requesting partyUnknown
Parties involvedFragments of Jade (talk · contribs), Thaddius (talk · contribs), Waka (talk · contribs), Lenin and McCarthy (talk · contribs), Sherwood-Nightshade (talk · contribs), Marasmusine (talk · contribs), Saquarry (talk · contribs), 88.161.129.43 (talk), 76.120.173.40 (talk), 24.3.180.166 (talk)
Mediator(s)Launchpad_72
CommentSolution seems to be agreed upon, awaiting response of all parties


Request details

We're unable to come up with a compromise that satisfies all parties, which has resulted in edit wars and name calling. The issue is whether or not to include a particular character's last name in the article, and if so, which name to use.


Who are the involved parties?


What's going on?

There is some debate about which last name, if any, should be included on the Silent Hill 3 summary section of the Silent Hill page. This has resulted in a vigorous edit war and has produced pages of talk page arguments. Users Thaddius (talk · contribs), Waka (talk · contribs) (that's me), Lenin and McCarthy (talk · contribs), Sherwood-Nightshade (talk · contribs), Marasmusine (talk · contribs), Saquarry (talk · contribs), and 88.161.129.43 (talk) have argued that sources indicating that the full name Silent Hill 3's protagonist is Heather Morris are insufficient, and that the page should not be changed to include the name "Morris." Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs), 76.120.173.40 (talk), and 24.3.180.166 (talk) argue that "Morris" is the correct name and that inclusion on the page is required. Contradictory sources have been provided, and two attempts at compromise (listing only "Heather", with no last name, and using a footnote to describe the contention) have been rejected by Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs). At this point we've lost all hope of good faith, accusations of sock puppetry are flying, and no common ground is in sight.

What would you like to change about that?

I would like a third party to weigh in on the dispute and give their opinion. I would like users who are not aware of Misplaced Pages policies (or are in obvious violation) to be reminded of those policies by a nonpartisan third party. Mostly, I want the edit wars to stop and the page to stabilize.

Mediator notes

  • Case submitted. waka (talk) 04:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Case Opened. Reccommendation Made. Awaiting response of involved parties. Launchpad_72 09:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Case tentatively resolved. Awaiting response from all involved parties. Launchpad_72 06:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


Administrative notes

Launchpad_72 says there seems to be a bit of he-said-she-said going on in the discussion. Launchpad_72 09:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Launchpad_72 says the discussion since my last check-in seems to have become very civil. Launchpad_72 06:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


Discussion

As a side-note, the two anonymous users supporting Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs), 76.120.173.40 (talk) and 24.3.180.166 (talk), have been accused of being sock puppets. User 88.161.129.43 (talk) dug up a bunch of circumstantial evidence to support this claim. WHOIS also reports that the two anonymous users are both Comcast subscribers from --blocked for privacy reasons--. --waka (talk) 01:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The company in charge of making the game has confirmed via email and even in an article-currently cited on the page in question-that her name for the english releases is "Heather Morris". The accusations of sock puppetry are false, based solely on the fact that I editted one of the same articles as the people who supported me, which just happens to be for a very popular video game series, and thus not odd at all. For the record, I suggested a compromise of my own-that the confirmed english-release name be used on the series page, as is custom on many Wiki articles, with the specifics of her name and the debate behind it in a section of the page belonging to said character. The other parties have even said several times in the argument that such details should be saved for the character page, but were unwilling to even consider my compromise or accept the proof provided. As a side note, hostility arose because Waka chose to publically post the State, City, and Counties of the two IPs in question, which I consider to be a very large invasion of privacy. There is no reason to believe these people or myself are sock puppets just because we have each editted two of the same articles, both of which are for extremely popular game series. And who's to say the two of them don't know eachother? They could be relatives, friends, or it could be just a coincidence. They should not be victimized because they chose to agree with me, nor should I for standing up for something I know to be true.Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The accusations of sock puppetry are false, based solely on the fact that I editted one of the same articles as the people who supported me
You're minimizing the "strange coincidences" I pointed out. Like Waka said, there's a bunch of circumstantial evidence. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 12:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The company in charge of making the game has confirmed via email that her name for the english releases is "Heather Morris".
This is a false claim. Konami USA did not make the game at all - Konami's Japanese studio did. Konami USA probably just localized it. And, as discussed, an e-mail received from the company does not qualify as "evidence" or "confirmation" as it does not meet with Misplaced Pages's standards on WP: Verifiability and WP: Sources. Please refrain from having the aimless argument spill over into this page. Fragments has conveyed information on one of the random users (such as being female), which could suggest sockpuppeting, but it is just as likely that these users simply know each other and are not necessarily the same person. Please refrain from making any more accusations and leave Fragments alone. It's for moderators to sort out now. The Hand That Feeds has asked us all to back off for now so I'd like to suggest that we all walk away from this argument for a while. --Thaddius (talk) 16:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

If that is your suggestion, then why did you edit the page from the way it has been for days, thus provoking another argument? The way it was was cited, confirmed twice, both in that article and via email, by Konami USA-her name for ALL English releases is "Heather Morris". No compromise has been reached, and I still move that they specifics of the debate be left for her specific character page. The series summaries always features the english-used last names, so why should Silent Hill be the exception?Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Like some of us have been doing from the beginning, the SH page is being made neutral to avoid edit wars. All the necessary sources have been moved to the character's article and don't need to be on the SH summary page because the last name isn't important there. Please leave the articles the way they are, they meet with Misplaced Pages's standards. --Thaddius (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Her last name was cited, and to remove it is wrong. And the way those other users keep helping you vandalize it makes it perfectly clear what's going on here. This is no compromise. This is a bunch of stuck-up fans bullying someone else, because they don't want to accept that they are wrong. Their "compromise" is anything but, and the one I suggested was completely ignored. Yeah, that's real fair.Fragments of Jade (talk) 14:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

You've ignored our fair compromise from the beginning and yours is to simply site a disputed claim as fact based on a personal e-mail which does not conform with wikipedia standards. We have reached a compromise without you because you are clearly not interested in WP: consensus, WP: Source, WP:3RR, WP:NPOV, ad infentum. Please stop reverting the neutralized page and stop spilling the argument onto this page. If you want to debate it, start it up on your own talk page where we will be glad to discuss this with you more. --Thaddius (talk) 14:12, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

No. I should not have to do that. This is exactly why I hate Misplaced Pages. I cited my statement with an OFFICIAL article where her last name is mentioned quite clearly. To stop the arguing, I even go as far as to email them, but that's still not good enough. And once again, I DID OFFER A COMPROMISE for the millionth time, but you're all just choosing to ingnore it, because you want to be right. And it's funny how you're suddenly so interested in this, and how those two appeared to help you vandalize the page. They said themselves her name should be discussed on the character's official page, so why is my compromise unacceptable. It's confirmed both by the cited article and by the game box. There's no denying it's fact.Fragments of Jade (talk) 14:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see that you didn't take this up on your talk page instead like I asked. I'm also sorry to hear that you hate Misplaced Pages, but I'm sure that simply stems from a lack of understanding of the rules and guidelines. I have reported you for violating the 3 Revert Rule, something which I note you've been given a ban for once already. Your banal edit warring and blatant lack of consideration for the rules of Wikipdeia are not welcome. Please stop trying to start fights on this page. Good day to you. --Thaddius (talk) 14:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you try reporting yourself? You made the first revert and broke the rule yourself. I tried multiple times to compromise, but was and still am being ignored. Instead, a bogus compromise that twists facts was allegedly made and used. I cited my statement with an official article, just as the rules state, and to continue reverting it, after the argument had finally stopped, is the real vandalism.Fragments of Jade (talk) 14:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

If you take the time to read the article on WP:3RR you'd note that you'd have to revert more than three times a day. You did (four times). I didn't (I did it twice). Your request to have me banned for violating 3RR was rejected because I hadn't broken the rule. --Thaddius (talk) 13:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

BMW says: as a neutral person, I have attempted to come up with a positive, usable, compromise solution - the details of which are on the Silent Hill discussion page. It's obvious ANY solution that comes from either side in this dispute will NOT be considered to be an actual compromise, rather a "victory". I politely approached FoJ on their Talk page to try and support them and the entire article, and assist in creating a solution that would recognize their hard work. I was instead called a "creep", and a "sockpuppet", and the user blanked their entire talk page.

We have to stop playing for "moral victories" on Misplaced Pages.

I would expect that a solution will need to be IMPOSED, as not all parties seem to understand "compromise". This is an awful lot of energy being expended over something that does not even actually appear in the gameplay. My solution to this problem is there for the taking, and I'm moving on back to my usual edits...none of which have ever involved this specific article. BMW(drive) 12:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll attempt to apply it to the article later. --Thaddius (talk) 13:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Launchpad_72 says This is my fist time moderating a wiki dispute, so I apologize if I'm doing this the wrong way. Anywho, down to business: From what I understand, this all boils down to whether or not the last name of one of the characters should be listed, as there is allegedly no evidence to support it. The way I see it, is that since this is referring to a work of fiction, we should treat it as such. If you'll allow me to make a Trekkie refrence, we follow the rules of Canon (fiction) whenever there is a difference between what was actually in the show and what the companion or an article or such says. If the last name was displayed, spoken, or actually used in the game itsself or the on-screen credits, then, yeah, you should list it. If not, then it has no place in the official character name, regardless of what any article or e-mail says. You could mention the e-mail in the article, but don't use it as refrence material (not that it would qualify anyways). Also, I think mentioning the voice actor refrence is fine, as long as it's not implying that that is the character's name. I hope my insights into this help resolve your dispute. I'll check in again tomorrow morning after I get off of work to see what you guys think of this idea. Signing off Launchpad_72 09:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The game itself does not mention a last name. Yet the back of the North American release says 'Morris'. Based on the content of the game one can infer that it's 'Mason', but that's not encyclopedic. I'm all for leaving it with no last name simply to avoid edit wars from 'Mason' to 'Morris'. At least the 'Mason' supporters seemed to have backed off... --Thaddius (talk) 13:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I suppose just being amused at the sheer effort and vitriol the last name of a character of a sub-par game induces isn't allowed?
Launchpad_72, thanks for the rational approach. Her last name does not appear in the game itself, and I agree with you that it's therefore not relevant to the article. --waka (talk) 15:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

its a horror movie.

Personally, I really don't see why her last name is even relevant. Everyone reading the article would know who the article is talking about, seeing as how there is really only one "Heather" in the entire Silent Hill series to date. If anything, "Heather (Silent Hill)" would do the job just fine, the way I see it. --Sherwood-Nightshade (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the point of adding Heather's last name. There is way too much contention over which last name it could be, and honestly, it really doesn't matter to the story at all. If it's not even mentioned in the game it has little to no value being mentioned in the article. All it will do will get another argument started over which last name is right. (Morris or Mason) I think her last name is just not relevant to the article at all. It won't add anything of importance and just is a point of contention that should not be touched or dealt with in any way... it's just one of those facts that there will be edit wars about. Just better to leave her name as just "Heather". We can all agree that her first name in game is Heather, so, I think that works out for all of us. It is pure fact that cannot be disproved. That's just what I see though, and just my opinion. You can take that as you will. Saquarry (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Launchpad_72 says maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but it seems like my reccommendation is being well recieved. I would like to make sure that everyone involved is happy before I reccommend a closure, but I'm glad this was (tentatively) resolved so quickly. Waka, thanks for coming here for a peaceful solution, and let me know if you have anything else you want to add before we close this. See ya tomorrow. Launchpad_72 06:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with "Heather."
That being said... Er... Could we get a confirmation as to whether or not Fragments of Jade, 76.120.173.40 and 24.3.180.166 are one and the same? I mean... I have no doubt they are, but I'd rather not deal with that user again... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 06:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
So far the people who have commented and agreed with your suggestions are the ones who proposed something similar from the beginning. Fragments of Jade and the two random IPs are the ones will probably have a problem with this suggestion. --Thaddius (talk) 13:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Marasmusine: I had come in a little later in the argument, read both side's arguments, and tried to reach a compromise (UK, Japan, Europe all omit the surname; Morris appears once on the US game box and once in a press release; in any localization the surname does not appear in the game => Therefore use "Heather", with a footnote pointing out surname usage; suggested further elaboration on that character's individual article) Whilst everyone else was happy with this solution, Jade continued to argue that only the US localization should be represented in the article. I found both this refusual to reach towards any compromize and Americocentric bias disappointing so I abandoned the discussion. As for sock puppetry, I had earlier noticed similarities with the edit histories for Jade and the two IP addresses; The tendancy to edit Wild Arms and Silent Hill articles and the aggressiveness in edit comments, but didn't want to pursue it any further. Marasmusine (talk) 09:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a solution at all. It's just them getting what they wanted. How is that fair? And why is it my efforts at a real compromise are allowed to be ignored? Her last name is confirmed by numerous sources and articles, and there was no reason to remove or edit it when it was properly cited. Just because an American said or did it, that doesn't make it false. And three people edited two of the same pages, both of which are for popular video game series? Wow, that's unheard of.>_> It's always like this. The minute people start to disagree, the accusations come.Fragments of Jade (talk) 17:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

my efforts at a real compromise
Your what?
And could someone please check her for sock puppetry? I'm tired of this nonsense... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The actress who voiced the character's name is Heather Morris. The character's name was supposed to be "Helen Mason". They decided "Helen" was too "old" of a name. They changed it to "Heather Mason", only the first part of her name was used, not the whole thing. She's the daughter of a previous character, so she is a Mason, not a Morris, it's not a challenge here. Logic. 131.137.254.206 (talk) 18:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
What's your source for her name being "Helen Mason" at one point during development? NTT Publishing's Silent Hill 3 guide does say that she was first supposed to be named "Helen" (and that got changed to "Heather," after the voice actress, for the reason you described), but nothing about "Helen Mason," nor "Heather Mason."
As for her being "logically" named "Mason"... Yeah, I'd agree, if "Heather" was her birth name. But we know her real name is "Cheryl Mason." And if she took the name "Heather" to hide from the Cult, I wouldn't assume she kept the last name "Mason"... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

My efforts at a compromise. Don't act like you can't read and don't play ignorant. Her name is not Heather Mason. She's in hiding, and since Harry kept his first name, there is no way he would also keep his last name. If he had, it certainly wouldn't have taken so long for the cult to find Heather again. I know "Heather Morris" is the main of her voice actor-the original creators said they named the character after her voice actor. This name is also supported by quite a few articles, the back of the US box, and Konami US-who have confirmed it as, at the very least, the official name of the character for all english releases.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

My efforts at a compromise.
I don't know what you're talking about.
the original creators said they named the character after her voice actor.
And again, that doesn't necessarily mean they called her "Heather Morris." They named Vincent after Vincent Gallo, etc. Boy am I glad to be told that I'm ignoring the points you've been making!
As for your other points, the back of the US box could be wrong (conflicting sources), and your e-mail, even if it's legit (which I doubt), apparently isn't receivable as a source. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

BWilkins says: LOOK, this went to mediation. The mediator came up with something that NOBODY (even me) thought of, and that is WP:CANON ... the same thing they use in (for example) Star Trek. If it was never SAID IN AN EPISODE, then it never WAS. This does not mean that SOMEONE GOT THEIR WAY. It does not mean that THE MEDIATOR SIDED WITH ONE SIDE, and honestly, it's an insult to even suggest either of those. Hey, if it's good enough for a 40 year old TV show (with 11 movies), it's good enough for everybody. FragmentsOfJade, you are taking Misplaced Pages far too personally. This is NOT an attack on you, so STOP acting like it is. Nobody on Misplaced Pages knows who you are, or honestly cares. Most of us are here to improve Misplaced Pages. This article will NOT be a better article with "Morris" being mentioned, but everyone appears willing to do so anyway. Heather Morris is an ACTOR, and if they ACTUALLY named the character 100% after her, then she'd be living in a mansion in Beverley Hills right now, THAT is how entertainment contracts work. You must also use NPOV - the neutral point of view. The game is made in dozens of languages. Only SOME of the ENGLISH releases appear to have the name Morris. This means that rest do not. If every OTHER LANGUAGE BESIDES ENGLISH does not include it, then that wins (of course, that would be DEMOCRACY). Heather was Harry Mason's daughter, which makes her full name Heather (Cheryl) Mason. This quote from Hiroyuki Owaku is vital: "Heather- Her name comes from Miss Heather Morris, who did Heather's voice and motion in the game. At first we had chosen the name "Helen," but it was pointed out that this name is old-fashioned and so it was changed. French actresses such as Charlotte Gainsbourg and Vanessa Paradis were her models." - Hiroyuki Owaku". Note that Mr. Owaku makes the point that the name HELEN became HEATHER, and not that the name HELEN became HEATHER MORRIS. Now, with respect to the 3RR rule ... it states that you MAY NOT MAKE 3 REVERSIONS TO THE SAME ARTICLE WITHIN 24 HOURS. Please, go through the History of ther article, and if any other single editor has done that besides you, please lodge a formal complaint. If you cannot find ANY instance, then stop arguing about others. From the first time I came to this argument, I have tried to help. I knew nothing about Silent Hill, but now I do. FoJ, you really need to look less emotionally at this situation...for your own sake. BMW(drive) 21:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologize in advance for what might be seen as nitpicking, but:
Heather was Harry Mason's daughter, which makes her full name Heather (Cheryl) Mason.
Her real name would be "Cheryl Mason," and at the time of Silent Hill 3, she's using the fake name "Heather," with no last name specified (except "Morris," on the back of the US box). I don't know of any official source about her full fake name being "Heather Mason."
with respect to the 3RR rule ... it states that you MAY NOT MAKE 3 REVERSIONS TO THE SAME ARTICLE WITHIN 24 HOURS.
Well, no more than three, anyway... Which actually got me thinking... Why was she blocked twice? I can see a 3RR violation on July 6, but what about the first one? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Pardon my errors with respect to the game, I've had to do a crapload of research in the last few days to learn all that I have about it so that I could help :-) My minor error with 3RR was just sloppiness LOL. The original block says "08:11, 4 July 2008 Thatcher (Talk | contribs) blocked "Fragments of Jade (Talk | contribs)" (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (editing warring on Silent Hill)". I can see why he/she is so peeved about having been blocked twice in 2 days. BMW(drive) 21:59, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey, no problem at all. It was pretty much nitpicking.
About the first block, it looks like Thatcher noticed a 3RR violation by Fragments of Jade on July 2. I can see three reverts by Jade on that day... Did Thatcher also count the three reverts by 76.120.173.40, by any chance? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you don't know what compromise I'm talking about. I've only brought it up about sixteen million times, yet you all chose to ignore it. Either you're lying, proving that you're just trying to antagonize me, like you racist and rude remarks have shown, or you have not read my posts at all, which confirms you did not listen to me at all. Either way, you come out looking bad. As I've said, everyone else broke the rules as well, and even the admins admitted this, but no one but me ever got punished for it. Also, original research or not, Konami US had confirmed "Heather Morris" as her english name.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you don't know what compromise I'm talking about.
And I still don't. Thanks for taking the time not to "remind" me.
you racist and rude remarks
I don't know what you're talking about either, here.
everyone else broke the rules as well, and even the admins admitted this
That's simply not true. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok guys, let's drop the arguments that have nothing to do with the compromise that Launchpad_72 suggested of going by Canon (fiction). Stop the accusations, stop the being hurt at accusations, none of these discussions belong here. Jade and Mr. 88, if you want to continue to make accusations of sockpuppetry: gather your evidence, report it and wait on a ruling. Otherwise, drop it. When posting here though keep it relevant to the discussion at hand.

Jade, your 'compromise' was to put Morris on the page and not budge on that. My compromise was to have no last name to avoid edit wars between fans who insisted on 'Mason' and fans who insisted on 'Morris'. This was supported by some of the other editors who commented, but since you rejected that one flat out, Launchpad made a very good suggestion on going with an essay on wikipedia about Canon (fiction), stating that if it's not in the game itself, it's not on the article. You've also rejected this flat out, insisting on your slanted compromise. Since, as discussed, your 'proof' is unencyclopedic (this includes back of box, article on Konami USA guy, and letter you supposedly received from Konami USA) do you have other reasoning to not go with Canon (fiction) that follow wikipdeia rules and guidelines? --Thaddius (talk) 14:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Jade and Mr. 88, if you want to continue to make accusations of sockpuppetry: gather your evidence, report it and wait on a ruling.
I would, but I don't have an account and don't wish to create one (especially not just for that). Besides, I was under the impression this would be investigated during the mediation. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 14:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Everyone who edits on Misplaced Pages should have an account :-) The issue at hand really was NOT the sockpupptery - that is NOT a mediation cabal thing, as it's much more serious. If you believe it, then put in a case about it. BMW(drive) 15:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
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