| Revision as of 16:42, 12 July 2008 editCarterBar (talk | contribs)390 edits →Edit warring← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:44, 12 July 2008 edit undoWilliam M. Connolley (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers66,036 edits →Blocked for 3 hours: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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| :::OK. It's what I've always stated, and I haven't changed. I'm always happy to discuss my edits. --] (]) 16:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC) | :::OK. It's what I've always stated, and I haven't changed. I'm always happy to discuss my edits. --] (]) 16:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Fine. I'm away now, but I'll look at any discussions later this evening or tomorrow. ] (]) 16:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC) | ::::Fine. I'm away now, but I'll look at any discussions later this evening or tomorrow. ] (]) 16:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC) | ||
| == Blocked for 3 hours == | |||
| Please stop being silly. You cannot remove the wrods "British Isles" from all of wikipedia and it is vandalism to try it ] (]) 17:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 17:44, 12 July 2008
I prefer to reply to comments on the page they were left, so if I left a comment on your page, reply there it is on my watch list. If you leave a comment here, watch this page until the discussion is done as I will only leave replies here. Thank you.
Radio 4 Theme
Hi Bardcom, just looking over the BI issue again, and as usual some of your edits are valid, some we could argue about, but there is one that stands out a mile as being, IMHO, completely wrong. I refer to the Radio 4 UK Theme. How do you know that Irish fishermen use RTE for the shipping forecast? I don't know if RTE provides a shipping forecast (I expect they do) but the BBC shipping forecast is for all, regardless of nationality, and if I was a betting man, I'd put money on the likelihood of a large number of Irish fishermen listening to it (and other nationalities undoubtedly do as well), but that would be OR if included here, a bit like your assertion. In the context of shipping areas the British Isles is admirably suited to describe the extent of their relevance. We're talking geography here, and the shipping areas completely surround all parts of the BI. If there's any subject where BI is correct that the Shipping Forecast must surely be it. I'll revert to BI in the article unless you can come up with a much better reason why it shouldn't be used. CarterBar (talk) 14:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC) (Move this to the relevant Talk page if you want). CarterBar (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
- Hi CarterBar - I know that Irish fishermen use the RTE forecast because I grew up in this environment. The assertion that the BBC forecast is for all of the British Isles is incorrect. The BBC provides a service for it's license holders - British license holders, and as such the forecast is for areas where these fishermen are likely to be fishing. Most definitely not off the coast of Ireland as this would be illegal (and they're not Spanish fishermen). I'm not about to revert until we've discussed this edit - and thank you for discussing. --Bardcom (talk) 08:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Bardcom, I note that RTE do provide a shipping forecast but only for the waters around Ireland. As for the BBC, they not only provide services to the British licence payer but to others as well. Think of the BBC World Service, and the international element of the BBC website. Another point to bear in mind is how the "gale warning" Shipping Forecast is introduced: "Attention all shipping...", not "Attention British shipping...". The Shipping Forecast, broadcast on LW, has a range covering all of the sea areas around the British Isles and is clearly aimed at all mariners - not just fishermen - in all those sea areas, Irish ones included. The sea areas completely surround all of the islands and are of a geographic nature, so the use of British Isles seems highly appropriate. CarterBar (talk) 17:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- The BBC World Service is funded differently - not from license payers. The BBC Radio 4 is funded through British license payers. From the BBC article, it states As part of the BBC Charter, the Corporation cannot show commercial advertising on any services in the United Kingdom (television, radio, or internet). Outside the United Kingdom the BBC broadcasts commercially funded channels such as BBC America, BBC Canada, and BBC World News. In order to justify the licence fee, the BBC is expected to produce a number of high-rating shows in addition to programmes that commercial broadcasters would not normally broadcast. Please note the use of the term United Kingdom and not British Isles, as this is the correct broadcasting area coverage. Also please note the article BBC Radio 4 which has the opening line BBC Radio 4 is a domestic UK radio station. Again the use of the term domestic UK is accurate and correct. Please also note the frequencies section - it doesn't "broadcast" into Ireland's radio spectrum (officially...). One of the tenets of Misplaced Pages is consistency throughout the articles, therefore can you please revert the article? --Bardcom (talk) 09:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually you are both wrong:-)This Daily Torygraph article sort of explains that the extent is much, much farther than the BI. I've picked it up off Portugal on a good night. What does any reference to the possible geographical location of some phantom listeners possibly add to the encyclopaedicness (or is that encyclopaedicity?) of the article. Wherever the listeners are they will receive the broadcast, otherwise they are not the listeners are they? Crispness (talk) 14:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- And from the BBC site, this one is probably the most authoritative. Northwest Europe again. Crispness (talk) 14:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Many of the issues being raised here are irrelevant, but for the record the BBC broadcasts the Shipping Forecast on behalf of the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency and it is obviously aimed at any mariner who cares to listen while in the vicinity of the British Isles, particularly in the sea areas that completely surround the islands - Man and Jersey included. I suggest the article is left in its current state - which is how it's been for some time - and if you're set on making a change to remove British Isles (why anyone would want to do so is quite beyond me in this particluar case) we should engage the services of a disinterested editor who could arbitrate in this matter. I'll accept any decision from an independent editor and I'm sure you would as well. Have you any suggestions as to the identity of a suitable person, if you want to follow this course of action? CarterBar (talk) 17:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Any editor can edit any page on WP so long as they are not restricted from doing so by a disciplinary ruling. Asking for an 'independent' editor should never be necessary. You don't seem to understand how things work. BTW, have you any reference for your assertions about the BI? For what its worth, if someone can receive a radio signal in Jersey, it is highly likely they can also receive it in France. The reason why the reference to the BI should be removed is that it is unencyclopaedic. That you don't understand that says more about you, I'd say. Crispness (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Many of the issues being raised here are irrelevant, but for the record the BBC broadcasts the Shipping Forecast on behalf of the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency and it is obviously aimed at any mariner who cares to listen while in the vicinity of the British Isles, particularly in the sea areas that completely surround the islands - Man and Jersey included. I suggest the article is left in its current state - which is how it's been for some time - and if you're set on making a change to remove British Isles (why anyone would want to do so is quite beyond me in this particluar case) we should engage the services of a disinterested editor who could arbitrate in this matter. I'll accept any decision from an independent editor and I'm sure you would as well. Have you any suggestions as to the identity of a suitable person, if you want to follow this course of action? CarterBar (talk) 17:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- And from the BBC site, this one is probably the most authoritative. Northwest Europe again. Crispness (talk) 14:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually you are both wrong:-)This Daily Torygraph article sort of explains that the extent is much, much farther than the BI. I've picked it up off Portugal on a good night. What does any reference to the possible geographical location of some phantom listeners possibly add to the encyclopaedicness (or is that encyclopaedicity?) of the article. Wherever the listeners are they will receive the broadcast, otherwise they are not the listeners are they? Crispness (talk) 14:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, it seems there are a number of issues - let's see if we can separate them out. My point is consistency across Misplaced Pages articles, and references for claims made. My claims and edits are referencable to the existing Misplaced Pages articles. In addition, (and as a litmus test for using the term British Isles) what would happen if you introduces a phrase into the Radio 4 article stating that it broadcasts all over the British Isles?
- The second issue is from CarterBar who states that the broadcast can be picked up further away than just the UK, and that because it is broadcast on "behalf of the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency, it should reference the British Isles. I've read this article and it uses the term UK throughout - not the British Isles.
- The third issue comes from Crispness who correctly states that if the argument is about the areas the broadcast can be picked up, then the term British Isles is not appropriate, and provides a reference to "Northwest Europe". He also asks CarterBar for a reference for using the term British Isles which we don't have to date. The personal comments are irrelevant.
- I still maintain that the UK is the most appropriate term with the "most" references, and the most obvious references. But in the absence of a reference for the term "British Isles", the claim is OR. CarterBar, can you find/provide a suitable reference? --Bardcom (talk) 23:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Bardcom, do a Google search of "Radio 4 UK Theme" and "British Isles" and you'll see plenty of examples that could be used as references, mainly to state that the tune comes from the "four corners of the BI" or words to that effect. It would therefore be possible to justify inclusion of the term on the basis of some of these. However, we are NEVER going to agree on this, nor obtain a general consensus, and there's no point on an edit war, so I say again, get an impartial view on the matter. I don't see any other way forward. CarterBar (talk) 17:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- CarterBar, you were asked for references to justify the usage. I take it that there are none. You are now trying to come up with some other way of introducing the term in a different context. I had hoped that we had developed a challenge-response mechanism of addressing our different opinions, and that it appeared to have been working. I would like to continue to believe that either of us can accept a reasonable request for a reference, or a reasonable argument (as we have done in the past). --Bardcom (talk) 15:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh dear, I've forgotten what the basic argument is about here. I think the reference you request is to confirm that the sea areas "surround the British Isles" or that the LW broadcast is "heard around the British Isles". Well here's a few -
- CarterBar, you were asked for references to justify the usage. I take it that there are none. You are now trying to come up with some other way of introducing the term in a different context. I had hoped that we had developed a challenge-response mechanism of addressing our different opinions, and that it appeared to have been working. I would like to continue to believe that either of us can accept a reasonable request for a reference, or a reasonable argument (as we have done in the past). --Bardcom (talk) 15:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Bardcom, do a Google search of "Radio 4 UK Theme" and "British Isles" and you'll see plenty of examples that could be used as references, mainly to state that the tune comes from the "four corners of the BI" or words to that effect. It would therefore be possible to justify inclusion of the term on the basis of some of these. However, we are NEVER going to agree on this, nor obtain a general consensus, and there's no point on an edit war, so I say again, get an impartial view on the matter. I don't see any other way forward. CarterBar (talk) 17:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- The BBC World Service is funded differently - not from license payers. The BBC Radio 4 is funded through British license payers. From the BBC article, it states As part of the BBC Charter, the Corporation cannot show commercial advertising on any services in the United Kingdom (television, radio, or internet). Outside the United Kingdom the BBC broadcasts commercially funded channels such as BBC America, BBC Canada, and BBC World News. In order to justify the licence fee, the BBC is expected to produce a number of high-rating shows in addition to programmes that commercial broadcasters would not normally broadcast. Please note the use of the term United Kingdom and not British Isles, as this is the correct broadcasting area coverage. Also please note the article BBC Radio 4 which has the opening line BBC Radio 4 is a domestic UK radio station. Again the use of the term domestic UK is accurate and correct. Please also note the frequencies section - it doesn't "broadcast" into Ireland's radio spectrum (officially...). One of the tenets of Misplaced Pages is consistency throughout the articles, therefore can you please revert the article? --Bardcom (talk) 09:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Bardcom, I note that RTE do provide a shipping forecast but only for the waters around Ireland. As for the BBC, they not only provide services to the British licence payer but to others as well. Think of the BBC World Service, and the international element of the BBC website. Another point to bear in mind is how the "gale warning" Shipping Forecast is introduced: "Attention all shipping...", not "Attention British shipping...". The Shipping Forecast, broadcast on LW, has a range covering all of the sea areas around the British Isles and is clearly aimed at all mariners - not just fishermen - in all those sea areas, Irish ones included. The sea areas completely surround all of the islands and are of a geographic nature, so the use of British Isles seems highly appropriate. CarterBar (talk) 17:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- Now don't tell me they also mention "sea areas around Britain", and other variations; I know they do, but each of them also categorically gives a reference to the British Isles in this context. Take your pick from them, and there are many more out there. From the last of the above references we have this quote; "The reason for choosing BBC Radio 4 for the Shipping Forecast is not simply because it is a speech-based channel, but also because it broadcasts via longwave as well as FM, and the longwave signal can be received clearly at sea all around the British Isles. " I hope this will do, because I feel we should be debating more important BI and related issues. I am reverting the change made by Crispness, since the debate was clearly ongoing and edits of this nature shouldn't be made when the subject is still being discussed. Likewise I'm reverting your Radio 4 edit because it is a related issue and we need (agreed) consistency. Anyway,why didn't you change the Shipping Forecast article to match that of Radio 4. Radio 4 is higher up the article hierarchy, so to speak. Incidentally, I've twice offered a way out of this impasse, by the use of some form of arbitration. What is your objection to this? CarterBar (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>Lets take those refs one-by-one. The first one (Met Office) is unfortunately an educational page, simplified for its target audience, secondary school pupils. It takes about the coastal waters forecast around the BI, but this includes North and South Uitsire, Southeast Iceland, Biscay, Fitzroy and Trafalgar, none of which would come anywhere close to the WP definition of BI. The Met Office may consider Biscay to be 'around the BI', but unfortunately it doesn't wash on WP.
The second page is a user home page quick reference, rather than an academic treatise. Unfortunately, given the weight of other evidence available, it wouldn't stand up to the requirements of WP:V. It is very close to being a self published source as the last 2 blogs most definitely are. But the page is more of an eclectic collection of useful met sources covering the British Isles. But it goes much further than that, including met charts for the Caribbean and North Atlantic. Not a definitive sources.
Sorry but blogs 3 and 4 don't count. I made a factual edit to the Radio 4 Theme article. I removed any reference to an assumed range for the broadcasts. It is silly to contend that listeners need to be in a particular geographical location. The propogation of radio waves does not follow fixed rules. Anyone who can hear the forecast can use the information.Crispness (talk) 19:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- CarterBar, I agree with Crispness. These "references" are not adequate and don't stand up, especially in the face of the official pages I've already referenced. I'm deliberately not trying to edit war, but at this point I feel that you are entrenching in your view. If you believe arbitration is required, by all means seek it. --Bardcom (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- You are talking absolute rubbish! What a surprise, you agree with Crispness. Yes, I am going to take this to arbitration if you or Crispness revert the article again. CarterBar (talk) 20:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Great argument. I'll consider your comment to mean that you have nothing more to add, and I will revert your changes as uncited and unreferenced. You are free to take whatever actions you like. --Bardcom (talk) 20:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- You are talking absolute rubbish! What a surprise, you agree with Crispness. Yes, I am going to take this to arbitration if you or Crispness revert the article again. CarterBar (talk) 20:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Will you agree to mediation in this matter? CarterBar (talk) 21:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- As a measure of the respect for our previous conversations and for you, then for this case - yes, I will. --Bardcom (talk) 08:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
- Will you agree to mediation in this matter? CarterBar (talk) 21:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
3RR at GENUKI
You have now reverted the GENUKI article 4 times today to remove British Isles from the text. Please see this Misplaced Pages:3RR#I have violated 3RR. What do I do? and I recommend you undo your last revert, otherwise I will report it on the Misplaced Pages Administrators Notice board. I have reverted your edit 3 times only. 86.27.107.230 (talk) 21:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- User:PamD has reverted your last edit for you, so on this occasion I will not take the matter further, but be aware, if you revert the article again in the next day I will report it at the Administrator Notice board, and likewise if you continue to make such edits after the 24 hour period. I suggest you accept the considered views of the editors at this article. British Isles is correct usage and is a given. The GENUKI site is a reference in itself. 86.27.107.230 (talk) 21:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Arbitration request filed
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Bardcom. EmpireForever (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
John Patrick Kenneally
RE: "Removed wikilinks from direct quotation as per suggested guidelines - MOSQUOTE" Do you have a link to 'MOSQUOTE' please?
- Unknown Unknowns (talk) 11:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sure - apologies. Normally when someone throws a policy at you like POV or AGF, just put a "WP:" (without the quotes) in front of it, and put the term in the search box. So in this case, put "WP:MOSQUOTE" in the search box. It takes you to where it says "Unless there is a good reason to do so, Misplaced Pages avoids linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader.". Thank you --Bardcom (talk) 12:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- If I can make a comment here? I think a problem with removing the links in the quotation as Bardcom did it was that it was not done completely: the links for British Isles and the other British-related link were removed, but the links to the other people in the quotation remained. Thus it may have appeared partial and inconsistent to other editors. If there was a compelling reason why only the two links that were removed should have been removed whilst leaving the others in place, it was not given, and this probably produced the puzzlement. As it happens, I have now made the links in the quotation completely comply with WP:MOSQUOTE by removing all of them, and adding a sentence after the quote that allows the links to the other people mentioned still have a presence in the article. I think if links are removed like this, some extra care is needed to explain the removal in greater detail (especialy if some are left in place) and so make sure that what is done doesn't appear inconsistent and partial to other editors. But, it can be a mistake that is easy to do and from which none of us are immune, which is why we need to emphasize the collaborative nature of this entire site, as many eyes can have a better chance of spotting all problems and slip ups. I hope it can be now seen as a minor issue. DDStretch (talk) 12:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The Dubs
You're so right and you've explained it perfectly. Sorry for seeming dense. I added a new link on Dub for the nickname, but I left the book since "The Dubs" is part of the title. What do you think? SlackerMom (talk) 18:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- OK with me --Bardcom (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There's method behind my madness
I didn't open the discussion myself, as I'm hoping to encourage the others to do so. That's also the reason why I didn't revert all of the anon edits. PS- all you guys should be bringing these BI usage disputes to a conclusion. GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm reverting and opening discussions. Pity you had to get involved, but at least it got you editting articles! :-) I've only just seen what's going on now. BTW, there's a discussion taking place on the anon IP's Talk page, and interestingly he posted a link to this . A bit of a new low. --Bardcom (talk) 16:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Edit warring
Hi Bardcom, This is all getting out of hand, on both sides. Let's just call a stop to this, at least until we see what happens at the RfArb. Will you agree to a moratorium on any further BI-related changes for now? I will, if you agree, and I'm sure other editors will as well CarterBar (talk) 16:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- There was a time this request would have carried more weight. Tell you what - I won't edit any new articles, but right now I'm going to look at the reverts. Is this acceptable? --Bardcom (talk) 16:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- OK, but don't just blindly revert them again. Put an discussion on the Talk page and then revert if you feel you've a good argument. I won't counter revert again under those circumstances. (BTW I think I've got a good argument with MultiMap). CarterBar (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- OK. It's what I've always stated, and I haven't changed. I'm always happy to discuss my edits. --Bardcom (talk) 16:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- Fine. I'm away now, but I'll look at any discussions later this evening or tomorrow. CarterBar (talk) 16:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- OK. It's what I've always stated, and I haven't changed. I'm always happy to discuss my edits. --Bardcom (talk) 16:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- OK, but don't just blindly revert them again. Put an discussion on the Talk page and then revert if you feel you've a good argument. I won't counter revert again under those circumstances. (BTW I think I've got a good argument with MultiMap). CarterBar (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Blocked for 3 hours
Please stop being silly. You cannot remove the wrods "British Isles" from all of wikipedia and it is vandalism to try it William M. Connolley (talk) 17:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)