Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:00, 20 September 2005 editGordonWatts (talk \| contribs)4,767 edits Answers to Kat & Ral's concerns: Either do something about it, or do not talk. Vote FOR or AGAINST, but don't just "talk." + asking Journalis & Bish how we determine concensus??← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:03, 20 September 2005 edit undoGordonWatts (talk \| contribs)4,767 editsm →Should RfA policy be changed re "concentrated edits?": Emph: Then how do we determine concensus??Next edit →
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	::'''"he should try to address the issues that others have with him"''' <font color=000099>I'm trying to do that here, but you are just talking and not doing anything: For example, tell me this: Are my proposed policy changes good or bad? If you don't give me any answer, I will be more than justtified in ] and making the changes myself, so now's your chance: If you don't like my edits, then tell me what the policy should be. Vote above.--] 17:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)</font>		::'''"he should try to address the issues that others have with him"''' <font color=000099>I'm trying to do that here, but you are just talking and not doing anything: For example, tell me this: Are my proposed policy changes good or bad? If you don't give me any answer, I will be more than justtified in ] and making the changes myself, so now's your chance: If you don't like my edits, then tell me what the policy should be. Vote above.--] 17:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)</font>

	*'''Re: Bishonen's suggestion to not vote above: OK, then how ''do'' we determine "concensus?"--] 17:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)'''		*'''Re: Bishonen's suggestion to not vote above: <font color=990000>OK, then how ''do'' we determine "concensus?"--]</font> 17:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)'''

Revision as of 17:03, 20 September 2005

A more obvious closing

Could the bureaucrats (or someone) come up with a way to make it more obvious that an RFA has been closed/removed, and what the outcome was? As it stands now, it is often not easily apparent to someone watching an RFA that it has been completed. Thinking of other examples, WP:AFD has their big blue boxes and explantory messages, WP:RM has little boilerplate text (e.g. {{moved}}), and stuff like this. It doesn't need to be a huge flashy banner, but something which is easy to notice/look for would be appreciated. Thanks. Dragons flight 19:30, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Could a template bre created? --Terry 19:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

What about something like this:

Template:RfA closed

--Terry 20:15, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

After a candidate's adminship has ended, the transcluded VFA page is removed from here. I don't see any harm in using it, but I feel it should be reworded. User:Nichalp/sg 15:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Agree with rewording. I like the concept, but would tweak the wording - "resolved" sounds like there was a problem or disagreement which has been fixed. How about saying "the discussion of this request for adminship has been completed"? Also, "for or against" doesn't capture the occasional neutral comment, so I would suggest "relating to" there. -- BDAbramson 15:28, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Or how about simply "This nomination has ended and has been archived. Please do not edit this page." ?Acetic ' 01:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

So how would we go about making this some type of policy? and would it be possible to protect the page once it is "archieved"?Terry

No need to protect the page, really. They never have been, and old VfD's aren't either. Any tampering with a page after the closing date would be obvious in the edit history. As for policy, it's already policy that RfA's end at a set time, and no comments should be added after that time. -- BDAbramson 02:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, here is the example that I think I am thinking of. Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/GordonWattsDotCom was put up but there was so much ill will a bureaucrat User:Rdsmith4 removed it from the main page of RfA. From what I read the whole RfA should have been considered closed. However, you will see that people are still voting there, likely because the nominee is posting the link to it. Of course, still being a noob here I did not catch on that it had been removed until I noticed its absense from the main page. Thus why I think something that stands out needs to be placed at the top of closed RfA's. Especially the one's that close earlier then the date posted. Hope I got my thought across... Terry

Ah, now I see your point - I thought you meant "protect" in the sense of an admin locking the page from editing, but you mean just something to signal potential posters that the debate is over, a la closed AfD debates. Yes, that makes perfect sense, and I would wholeheartedly endorse such a marker. I still don't think it requires any policy change, as it were, to start posting a template to bookend such articles that would warn awat posts. It would basically just restate the existing rule out loud. -- BDAbramson 03:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

How about the wording now? Terry 11:50, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Better, but the word deleted seems odd, perhaps reverted would be better. It would also help if the result of the RFA be displayed like we have in VFD. eg. {{tl|RfA closed|P}}or {{tl|RfA closed|NP}} User:Nichalp/sg 13:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Tssk, tssk, Nichalp, there's no VfD anymore! ;-) But your point is quite right! -- BDAbramson 13:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

!!! Old habits die hard :) User:Nichalp/sg 13:40, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Terry, could you also include a result field in the template? I'd like to start using it right away. User:Nichalp/sg 06:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

GordonWatts

I have reopened this nomination at Gordon's request. The policy of premature removal is intended to protect candidates from undue stress; however, he stated on my talk page that he doesn't mind the "ill will", and I believe this should be his choice. Please let the nomination run its course. — Dan | Talk 15:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

This whole debacle is damaging to the reputation of the Misplaced Pages project. A stop should be put to this now. The application os obviously going to fail, and no good can come of further debate on the subject. The candidate's views are now immaterial to the outcome, and there is no good reason to proceed with this. Giano | talk 17:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Frankly, this is ridiculous. "Speedy removal" does not simply spare the blushes and stress of the nominee, but also avoids ill will in the community as a whole (and stop everyone wasting time and electrons). He may not care about ill will; I certainly do. I respect his strong opinions and committment, but it is abundantly clear that a significant amount of water will have to pass under the bridge before he becomes an admin. The only reason to keep the nomination would be to clear the air: well, some thing are better left unsaid. I have been bold and deleted it again. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The other bureaucrat involved and I have voted you down 2-1. I have restored the nomination. "The only reason to keep the nomination would be to clear the air" Let it run its course to clear the air -otherwise RfA's will continue to be toxic from editors forming insiders cliques instead of following policy. "He may not care about ill will; I certainly do." I do too, but ill will is going to occur if you don't follow the rules and let the nomination proceed; As Dan has said, only I can declare "ill will," and I do not. Besides, if another user claims to feels ill will from this RfA, then they can log onto another page. No one is forcing them to long onto this RfA. What harm can come from just stepping back and letting it run its course?--GordonWatts 13:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, the vote is doomed, and continuation of this is pointless. You would need in excess of 100 support votes to gain adminship, why are you still persisting? User:Nichalp/sg 13:53, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, this isnt a popularity contest, an unpopularity contest, an election, a democracy or a request for comment; it is a method for bureaucrats to build a consensus, for better or for worse you are not going to get a positive one so there is no point in letting this run its course. Martin 13:55, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, Bluemoose. Also, to answer your question, Nichalp, not only is there a chance (however slim) that I might make Adminship (example: Clinton beat Bush, Sr., even though Clinton was "way behind"), additionally, check this out: "If the rights of one are violated, the rights of all are at risk" --Thomas Paine Do you see my point? The policy isn't being followed in all cases, and this is wrong -even if some people want to do things "they way they've been done" with good intentions -still wrong, and this is part of the reason many RfA's and other parts of Misplaced Pages are cesspools of "ill will," angst, and frustration.--GordonWatts 10:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I have believed for some time that early removal of candidacies accomplishes little. Let it run its course and then it will be gone. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:54, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to have to disagree with Uninvited Company on this one. While I think both arguements have merit, I agree with Aloan and Giano that removing guarenteed-to-fail nominations early spares the nominated person the embarassment of tremendously lopsided vote. Bear in mind that there has been an unfortunate trend in the requestes for adminship for (1) recrimination - "I have an axe to grind, so I'll get him back by opposing his request for adminship"-ism and (2) politiking (as GraceNote has been doing lately with respect to inclusionsim vs deletionsim lately). Also, I've noticed this page has a tendancy to "avalanche" - once three or four people oppose a nomination, subsequent oppose votes start to accululate very quickly. So given these conditions, I see plenty of value in ending certain RFAs early. →Raul654 18:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Raul, as so often is the case, you mischaracterise the views of those who you don't like, or who don't agree with you. I have not been "politiking" with respect to inclusionism vs deletionism. I've said, clearly and openly, that I don't oppose a request for administrator status on the basis of an applicant's perceived "deletionism". I don't think that should be a basis for opposition. It's a difference in philosophy. I've shown willingness to discuss my views reasonably with "deletionists" -- particularly the more thoughtful among them. Just because you feel it is best to label those who don't share your views "trolls" and ignore what they have to say doesn't mean others feel the same (although, yes, you'll surely be able to dig up a diff where I labelled someone I disagreed with a "troll" and where I haven't been reasonable -- we all have our moments). I have opposed those who have a record of using speedy tags incorrectly or over-hastily because I feel it would be detrimental to the project to allow them to delete articles without any discussion. Is that politicking? I didn't oppose Nandesuka just because he's a deletionist. -- Grace Note

While I might not have captured all the careful viewpoint nuances that you claim to have, I think you have already summarized them quite clearly: "Oppose. New content creators, however misguided, should be welcomed. I don't want to empower editors who do not have that view... You're not just a deletionist, by the way. You are a rather unpleasant, pisstaking deletionist -- just the sort of thing that makes the AfD pages a bit of a cesspit." (emphasis added). So, you claim here that you don't oppose someone based on their deletionism, and from that earlier commetn it's quite evident that you did. So, which is it - were you lying then or are you lying now? →Raul654 07:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Raul. I have also commented on the b'crats noticeboard. User:Nichalp/sg 18:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Without commenting on this specific case, I support removing nominations early where a success is unfeasible. I'd say a reasonable rule of thumb would be 20 votes total, with no more supports than opposes. Pak aran 19:51, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with early removal only if the nominee consents to the nomination being removed. If he/she does not, then let it run its course.

Journalist /

My other reason was simply that I felt that GordonWatts would be less likely to renominate himself repeatedly (cf. Terri Schiavo on FAC) if he became convinced that he really wasn't trusted by the community. I will respect the other bureaucrats' opinions, though I would rather have seen some time for discussion before the nomination was removed for a second time. — Dan | Talk 20:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

A request

I am currently under nomination for adminship and one oppose vote has come. Should I explain my position by writing something as noted below the Oppose vote or somewhere else? OR, Just let the nomination run its course:
“Would you please come closer to me and explain the exact reasons for opposing my nomination for adminship? Do you really feel that wikipedia should have materials, which do not conform to the guidelines? I invite you for a chit-chat, and I shall certainly endeavor to remove your doubts. Thanks.”

Suggestions are requested. In case, I came to the wrong place, sorry pals. Thanks. --Bhadani 15:24, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

You can't please everyone, just let it run its course. Martin 15:46, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) The user is well-known enough has given a legitimate reason to oppose, so I'd let this one go. From the looks of it you'll pass no problem. Live to fight another day, ma man. gkhan 15:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

It does spoil a cent-per-cent vote I agree, but at 43:1, and a day and a half to go, I don't think its absolutely necessary to respond to each oppose vote. Some users oppose to bait a candidate. User:Nichalp/sg 17:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Nevertheless, I clarified my position at the appropriate place. --Bhadani 14:03, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Inactive admins part 2

We never finalised previous discussion on inactive admins, and I found this from the commons website;

== Inactive admins ==

As with the policy for administrator access on Meta, inactive administrators may have their access removed. According to this policy, any sysop inactive on Commons for a full year will be desysoped. "Inactive" means no edits in the past 6 months and fewer than 50 edits in the last year. Inactive administrators may re-apply through the regular way.

Shall we conduct a straw poll to see if we can form a consensus on having this as policy here as well? Note: i know we all hate polls, but we have had more than one discussion on this, and this is a quick and painless way to finally do something about it.

I'll start a poll on the admins notice board soon unless anyone can think of somewhere better to have it. Martin 14:02, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Please not on the AN. That page is usually half an MB in size, and a poll will push it even further. A wikipedia namespace would be better. See also WP:CS User:Nichalp/sg 14:07, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree, not AN. Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators, or a subpage of this page, would probably be more appropriate. ] 15:19, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Good point I have made it at Misplaced Pages:Desysopsing inactive admins. See you all there. Martin 15:23, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Meh, this is a solution in search of a problem. Where can I vote for the desysoping of active admins who are a pain in the butt? ;-) Func( t, c, @, ) 17:26, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

It's a simple preventative measure, which is policy on commons. Martin 17:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

btw, in life you'll learn that "pain in the butts" are people who resist change for no reason other than it is change. Martin 17:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Martin, I was just making a joke, unrelated to the merits of the above proposed poll. Func( t, c, @, ) 17:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. Martin 18:41, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Some general RfA Problems: Taxman said this was the page for it

Admin User:Taxman, before he went on break, said (and I agree) that this was the right place to bring my concerns: "The much better way to handle the issue if you think there is a serious problem in the way the RFA policy is handled would be to let your RFA stay removed then bring the issue up on the RFA talk page and point to that discussion from relevant other places. That way it's not you trying to argue your way into adminship, but the issue is still handled."

Note: It looks like the Bureaucrat who had initially reposted the RfA and said to let it run its "one week" course was outvoted, and other Admins have locked both the RfA page ("vote closed" reasoning) and its associated "talk" page: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/GordonWatts.

It appears that my attempt to "talk about it" on the talk page was not even permitted: A clear attempt to stifle my voice. (They gave a reason, but I don't buy it; My attempts to voice my concerns over my failed RfA have moved to this page here, and I'm keeping a copy on my user page and my computer's hard drive -for archival and backup purposes.)

Why do they have such a talk page, when it is clear that they are afraid to talk about it in a public forum? They lock even the talk page! Wow.--GordonWatts 20:10, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Traditionally, an action or allegation by a person (or group of people) can be shown to be false by contradicting one of three gold standards.

Contradicts:
- Known Laws / Rules
- Itself
- Gut Feeling

Application of Misplaced Pages Policy on RfA

(Actual actions by voting editors contradicts: Known Laws / Rules)

Admission: The RfA can legitimately vote me down

According to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship, "The community grants administrator status to trusted users who are familiar with Misplaced Pages policies," so even if I am totally right, I don't think that Jimbo or anyone with power should promote me to Admin by fiat. If the users who voted on my violated policy, however, they may be subject to sanctions.

Was Misplaced Pages Policy on RfA followed in my RfA?

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship, which is current Misplaced Pages policy, says that "adminship should be no big deal. Admin actions are reversible; being an admin is primarily an extra responsibility, as there are rules and policies that apply only to admins." In addition, Misplaced Pages:Administrators states that "Current (de facto) Misplaced Pages policy is to grant this access liberally to anyone who has been an active Misplaced Pages contributor for a while and is generally a known and trusted member of the community..."This should be no big deal," according to Jimmy Wales...In the early days of Misplaced Pages all users acted as administrators and in principle they still should."

That is the policy, and I am a user in good standing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log/block&page=User:GordonWattsDotCom

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log/block&page=User:GordonWatts

Neither my old user name, not my current one were ever blocked (except that my "old" name was permanently "blocked" when I switched user names, but that was not for disciplinary reasons, just to switch names).

Conclusion: The policy is quite clear: I should be accorded Admin status, since I am an editor in good standing, who has made close to 3,000 edits on over 239 pages, not as many as some, but quite a few! Kate's tool to count my edits ~~ I've been here since my first edit, 2005-05-02 16:20:23, and while I have been criticized for focusing too much on the Terri Schiavo article, these are only like 10-15 article at most: I've edited about 224-229 other pages, which is still quite diverse, given that this is not all I do with my life. The denial of my Request for Adminship (RfA) was not according to policy. Period.

If the editors don't like policy, they should change it; If they don't change it, they should follow it. The other criticisms against me are addressed in the sections below, and this affects other users, not just me, so this is a "general problem" with Misplaced Pages: Not following the Policy.

As a side note, I think that standards should be raised for editors: I think we should be forced to post our real names, work addresses, and phone numbers, with email address, like editors at online newspapers, because this would increase accountability and improve edit quality. However, this is not current policy, so holding me to artificial standards accomplishes nothing, and these political games and insider clique clubs are a major reason why many people leave Misplaced Pages in disgust and frustration.--GordonWatts 20:31, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

For the N+1th time: There is no hard policy stating RFA voters have to vote a certain way. We can have any standards we want. ~~ N (t/c) 20:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

There is, however, you did not read it closely. Let me highlight the relevant section: Misplaced Pages policy is to grant this access liberally to anyone who has been an active Misplaced Pages contributor for a while and is generally a known and trusted member of the community. I meet both definitions: I am part of the red-colored "anyone" above, and I obviously was a trusted member of the community, since I was allowed to upload images (a sensitive power, given Copyrvio laws) -and edit in very difficult pages, all without and disciplinary record. Why do we have these rules and this policy if people can vote any way they wish, pray tell? To simply have an "insider's club?--GordonWatts 20:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

There is no "insider's club" or "clique". If there was, I wouldn't have got in, certainly not on my first (serious) try. — JIP | Talk 09:26, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't mean to imply that editors always think like that, but the actual fact is that they have made up their own version of the rules and policy that differs from what the current policy really is; The fact that you just happened to meet their standards does not mean that they used the right standards; It simply means that you waited to build up enough edits and that your edit profile here was something they liked. Their "changing standards" may be better, but if they feel that way, then they should seek to change the policy before they do it that way; This way, editors who apply for RfA would not feel cheated or get a big surprise when the rules aren't followed.--GordonWatts 10:33, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

As much as I dislike engaging in such discussions, I would like to point out what it actually says:

The community grants administrator status to trusted users who are familiar with Misplaced Pages policies. Admins have no special authority on Misplaced Pages, but are held to high standards, as they are often perceived as the "official face" of Misplaced Pages. Admins should be courteous and should exercise good judgment and patience in dealing with others. Nominees should have been on Misplaced Pages long enough for people to see whether they have these qualities. That said, adminship should be no big deal. Admin actions are reversible; being an admin is primarily an extra responsibility, as there are rules and policies that apply only to admins.

There are no official numerical standards for adminship; however, most new admins have at least three months of participation and one thousand edits.

Notice that it says should and are often (conditional tenses) all over the place and the community grants (meaning its us, not a policy that decides - otherwise we could create a script that automatically promotes admins). It also (and probably more relevantly) The are no official standards. That disproves your agrument that by opposing you we are breaking some policy: there is no policy. Please stop flooding the place with arguments and complaints at everyone (for that loses you trust and actually can be percieved as vandalism). I, however, do wish you good luck in your future as an editor and hope you continue to contribute to articles. --Celestianpower 13:05, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Raw numbers of Admins

(Contradicts: Gut Feeling: Need more admins.)

"We have ~23,500,000 edits, ~2,300,000 pages, ~440,000 users and ~580 admins. That means each admin is effectively responsible for 40,500 edits, 4,000 pages and 750 users. That sounds like 580 full time jobs to me~ --Alterego 15:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)" (quote from Jimbo's talk page) I don't know where he obtained his figures here, but I will (initially) take them at face value.

Conclusion: The desire to highly restrict Adminship to an "inside clique" simply goes against "gut feeling": It would be numerical suicide of the highest proportions and unnecessarily overwork the current Admins.--GordonWatts 15:55, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Editcountitis standard used in RfA process.

(Contradicts: Gut Feeling)

"Editcountitis is particularly bad. There was a case recently where someone had been around for two years, made lots of good (and lengthy) contributions, never caused any trouble, had helped people out, but was blindly rejected because he had only made 1,000 edits or so...In short, adminship should still be no big deal. We should work at loosing the RfAd culture up. Pcb21| Pete 09:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC)" (From Jimbo's talk page) I have no reason to disbelieve Pete, here.

More Data:

User:GordonWatts, (apparently prematurely failed) RfA candidate
- Total edits 2801
- Distinct pages edited 238
- Edits/page (avg) 11.77
- First edit 2005-05-02 16:20:23 Kate's Tool for GordonWatts
User:Phroziac, successful RfA candidate
- Total edits 1605
- Distinct pages edited 965
- Edits/page (avg) 1.66
- First edit 2005-06-02 01:29:59 Kate's Tool for Phroziac
User:Robchurch, "failed" RfA candidate, but it was close, and many (like Pete, quoted above) say that someone of his caliber would make a good Admin: (33/9/4) his vote his failed nomination
- Total edits 2183
- Distinct pages edited 1211
- Edits/page (avg) 1.80
- First edit 2005-07-01 22:43:42 Kate's Tool for Robchurch

Conclusion: I've only listed three (3) candidates, to keep things simple, because each one is representative of a larger sub-group. GordonWatts was criticised harshly for his rebuttals in his failed RfA, but his initial problems centered around his "stats," so we look to the other two groups for clarity. Robchurch was in the same boat as user that Pete described in the quote off of Jimbo's page: A good editor who failed but did not complain about it. GordonWatts also had other complaints about the way that he handled his recent FA-nomination, but those critiques are minor and shall be discussed in the "Double Standard" section here. (Criticisms of Watts' constant rebuttal to each and every answer also were a factor in his failed RfA, but they did not come initially, because the RfA's voters could not have anticipated this in advance, and thus could not vote on this.) Now, assuming all of the foregoing was correct, we can conclude one thing: All three of these candidates, Robchurch, Watts, and the anonymous editor described by Pete, were experienced at the outset, but "did not have the numbers," either in total edit count or "diversity." This does go against the "no big deal" policy for every editor in good standing, but moreover, it goes against gut feeling: What used to be an open club has become a closed clique of insiders, who arbitrarily raise the bar, when arbitrarily denied users would probably be good admins: Although the writer of this analysis has his personal differences with User:Phroziac, successful RfA candidate described above, he feels that Phroziac's promotion was deserved: Phroziac is qualified to be an Admin according to current Policy, and this is proof that the "editcountitis" method is just plain wrong.--GordonWatts 16:55, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Special note on differences: In looking at the above, it is apparent that GordonWatts started editing exactly one month before Phroziac and has almost twice as many edits. Phroziac, on the other hand, has edited 1211 "Distinct pages," many more than GordonWatts, which is more "diversity," by far. However, GordonWatts has edited 238 "distinct pages," and with the many months and many edits of experience, 238 is not a small number. It surprised Mr. Watts when he saw that number, and since he was criticized for being too focused on the Terri Schiavo articles, it is apparent that these would only comprise at most 10-15 pages; the other 223 or so pages (238-15=223) would be "non-Schiavo-related" and thus still very diverse (even if not as "diverse" as others like Phroziac). Before Watts began objecting (protesting the RfA process as applied to his RfA), his "edit numbers" were the main criticism, which also caused Robchurch to fail, but the "numbers" that Watts and Church have are still very strong, and neither one was a "newbie" when they were failed. This is additional evidence of "gut feeling" speaking.--GordonWatts 17:25, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Why are you talking about yourself in the third person? Aquillion 21:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

"Why are you talking about yourself in the third person?" Well, Aquillion, it is because I am not defending myself in this post (where I'd use first person), but, instead, defending a standard. (I am writing an article, and good writers, of which I hope I am one, speak objective third person, not "subjective' first person, to avoid being myopic or giving the impression of bias.--GordonWatts 12:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Double Standard

(Contradicts: Itself)

Are RfA candidates criticized for things that Admins do all the time? - Two case examples

The "SlimVirgin" Edit War

(Note: The writer of this post thinks that SlimVirgin was not at fault in this example, but many others harshly criticised and reverted her; FuelWagon has alleged that three (3) editors quit on count of her, but that may be coincidence that Neuroscientist, Duckecho, and ghost all quit at that time for other reasons.)

As a side note, while I think SlimVirgin was not at fault in the edit war above, my points were two-fold: She was never scrutinized like an RfA applicant would have been; Secondly: Here, in the page protect logs, SlimVirgin made these spicy comments about me, thinking I would never see them:

10:28, 17 September 2005 SlimVirgin unprotected Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/GordonWatts (I'm hoping Gordon has gone to bed)
09:46, 17 September 2005 SlimVirgin protected Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/GordonWatts (temporary protection against GordonWatts)

Hmm...--GordonWatts 20:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Then, after those questionable remarks, Admins at the talk page of my RfA would not let me post my comments to it, making excuses that my comments were not relevant to my RfA, but general: True, they were "general" in nature, but they were also specific concerns I had about my own RfA, and they should have not prevented me from posting them, but now they are here: Questionable actions abound re my RfA.--GordonWatts 20:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The recent Main_Page Edit War between at least seven Admins & Bureaucrats

Comments: Can someone say "Revert War?"

User:SlimVirgin, while innocent in this writers eyes, still made a good number of users quite angry, and generated Talk:Terri_Schiavo/archive30#Suggestion_for_SlimVirgin complaints and also a Wikipedia_talk:Request_for_comment/SlimVirgin plus a lot of heat.
The front page revert war shown above involved at least seven (7) Admins and Bureaucrats and almost certainly one or two of them were in the wrong, since all competing "versions" could not necessarily be right; Further, even if they were all reasonable, why couldn't that talk it out on the talk page first?
The admins and bureaucrats involved may not have done anything other than be human, but are they worthy of Adminship and Bureaucratship?
Here, we have User:Allen3 (Revision as of 16:00, 13 September 2005)] telling me in my recent RfA application that my four reverts were out of order when I had the authority or permission to do them in three cases, and the fourth, if I were wrong, was a misunderstanding, based on the fact that Nichalp said that I had the right to have a FA-candidate.
In this diff, Andrevan, an Admin, posts a question to the page after it was locked, and I could not answer it there: He criticized me for getting "sysop" and "admin" mixed up; They mean the same thing. It is true that I made a human error, but he does not criticize Admins and Bureaucrats for much more serious and questionable actions.
Claim: I was the subject of a double standard: These users contradicted themselves when in my RfA application, they nit picked at me for what were possibly minor violations (nothing serious and no revert war on my part, unless I was actually justified). Even if I were not qualified to be an admin based on this behavior, why are other admins, and even bureaucrats (supposedly held to even higher standards) allowed to do this without so much as a peep from these RfA voters? Are RfA candidates, such as Mr. Watts, being held to higher standards than actual Admins and Bureaucrats?

One Possible Answer: "But is not a job. They are just powers. Originally, they were conceived as powers withheld, which you would be granted if you kept your nose reasonably clean. Now people are opposed because they don't vote on deletions, because they have made enemies, because they aren't "trusted" (but not "trusted" not to delete pages, "trusted" in a sense defined by whoever is using that as their reason), because you once bickered with somebody over something stupid, because someone once called you a troll and his mates piled on. Gordon should be an admin if it's no big deal. He wouldn't do any harm with it. He just blathers and tries to push his POV. If that was a crime, we'd be locking up half the editorship. Grace Note 02:00, 17 September 2005 (UTC)" (Taken from Jimbo's talk page; Emphasis added for clarity.)

Conclusion: If Admins & Bureaucrats were treated the same as RfA candidates, we'd be de-Adminning about half of them.

Conversely: If RfA candidates were treated like Admins and Bureaucrats demand that they be treated, then most of them would not have to face such nit-picking over relatively minor details.

Meta conclusion

This RfA process affects me, but it also affect many other editors, and misapplication of the rules is a factor in the current trend of users quitting and becoming frustrated with Misplaced Pages. Another example of this is my recent nomination of Terri Schiavo for Featured Article: Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/Terri_Schiavo/archive1.

Here, I got nearly half of the votes, about 6-11 or 7-10... I may have mis-counted somewhere, but it was not a lopsided vote.

Then, a number of editors and I fixed all of the problems that the FA-editor, Mark, had identified, and most of those that others had found. So, here, in this diff, the last one, we see my nomination, but it was soundly defeated. The only thing that had gotten worse in the article was a vert short-lived edit war; the defeat was because many people thought the article had to "wait several months" becasue "that's the way we did things," and since I didn't know these "unwritten rules," that was proof that I didn't know enough to nominate a good article. My answer?

If the rules were "unwritten," then they should have been ignored anyway, in light of the "real" policy: "Once the objections have been addressed, you may resubmit the article for featured article status." Template:Fac-contested

META CONCLUSION: So, the violations of Misplaced Pages Policy affect a great number of users in a wide number of projects. These abuses must stop so users don't become frustrated and quit as they are doing.

Comments as a separate section

I just wish to enquire, is there any reason why the comments part (when an RfA gets long) shouldn't be a separate section? On R. Fiend's RfA, he changed it so that it was and Ceropia changed it back. Just wish for clarification, thank you. --Celestianpower 22:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

They are not separate sections so as to not spam the TOC. IIRC, I've seen they changed to separate sections when the RfA gets really long. --cesarb 22:41, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

So is it okay in R. Fiend's case as he asked for it? --Celestianpower 22:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it's not needed; it's not that long. You should ask a bureaucrat, since they are usually the ones to "manage" the RfA page (oh, wait, isn't Cecropia a bureaucrat?) --cesarb 03:20, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

To Gordon Watts

Gordon, the page is titled "Requests of Adminship". It differs from "Vote for adminship". If your vote is failing miserably bureaucrats have every right to remove it from the page. The page is created to ascertain if the candidate is suitable for further responsibilities. If the voting trends dictate a downward trend, continuation of the whole excercise is pointless. You don't gain from it, others don't gain from it either. Maybe you don't want face the ignominy of having the nom called of early, but its better than getting more oppose votes and wasting everybody's time and energy.

You may want the nomination to continue as you hope some of the oppose votes might get changed to support. If that's the case you may contact all those who have voted here and ask them to withdraw/support instead. If they refuse, well no point pursuing it any further.
Current standards mentioned on the page say that 80% support votes are needed. If you feel otherwise, please get a mandate from the community that a 4-3 vote (or roughly 57%) is sufficient to gain adminship.
Under the first section, '...The community grants administrator status to trusted users.... Instead of you proving if you are a trusted user, please find out why the community think otherwise of you.
If adminship is no big deal then why are you still persisting? Get 1000 edits in the main namespace, get three articles featured. Participate in the Village pump, AFD, IFD; hunt and find spelling errors, copyvios etc. Prove your worth as a potential admin not by your word, but by your actions. Public opinion is notoriously myopic, and if you are civil and volunteer for the above tasks, I see no reason why you can't wait and succeed in two months time.
If you continue to post such large replies I shall assure you that its going to be speedily ignored, and archived faster.
Regards, User:Nichalp/sg 09:12, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Should RfA policy be changed re "concentrated edits?"

What say ye? .

(Quoting you) "If you feel otherwise, please get a mandate from the community that a 4-3 vote (or roughly 57%) is sufficient to gain adminship." I see your point about getting concensus on policy issues; While I personally think a very slim 4-3 concensus would be OK, I don't think others would agree, and will accept the 80% figure for now as the standard. (The 4-3 concensus is good enough for a small edit on an article, but maybe not OK for Adminship. That is debatable, but not certain.)

(Quoting current policy on the project page here) "There are no official numerical standards for adminship; however, most new admins have at least three months of participation and one thousand edits." I would add to that, so it reads:

Proposed Policy: "There are no official numerical standards for adminship; however, most new admins have at least three months of participation, one thousand edits, and most of their edits spread out, not primarily concentrated in one article or category."

(This would change policy to reflect the concerns that many have raised about me concentrating most of my edits in the Terri Schiavo article and related articles.) I seek concensus, so "Speak Up" people:

Vote Count (0/1/1/0)

1. Support Current Version

2. Support Proposed Version

I support the proposed version because it tells the truth of what standards are for those voting.--GordonWatts 11:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

3. Voting Is Evil

Don't vote on everything. Bishonen | talk 16:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

4. Neutral

Comments

I will not get mad if my version does not get concensus, but I will be peeved if the rules, whatever they end up being, are not followed: We must strive to keep our word.--GordonWatts 11:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Consensus is not achieved by voting. 4-3 is not consensus, neither is 8-2. Consensus is when everyone concerned in a debate can agree sufficiently with a particular outcome so as to be able to live with it. Consensus is not about one or more parties getting their way, it is about avoiding win-lose outcomes. Given the level of strongly-held oppose votes in your particular RfA, there was no earthly way that consensus to promote could ever have been reached. If I may be so bold as to offer some belated, retrospective advice, the sensible course of action for you to adopt would have been a quite withdrawal from debating the matter here and elsewhere around the 'pedia. I say this as someone with no particular axe to grind, having been away from here for most of this debate and having no interest whatsoever in the Terri Schiavo article; I just hate to see people banging their heads against brick walls and distracting so much admin time and energy that could otherwise be put to more fruitful use. Now I realise that by responding to you I am inviting a prolonged, multi-coloured reply. I will read anything you say, but I may as well warn you know that my position on consensus is not likely to change, being based on fairly unshakeable principles. I should also add that I intend no particular criticism of you because you fail to understand what consensus means; many more experienced Wikipedians than you evince the same blind spot. Filiocht | Talk 12:44, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe you mean well, and you are right that this would have been better for me in the long run, but I was thinking of the next person who would come to an RfA and get judged based on dry numbers or picked at over trivial matters that had recently occurred, in which editors were looking myopically at small things and missing the bigger picture. This is not to say I am the most qualified candidate, but I would not have applied if I thought I was unqualified. That being said, it may be moot: I may be too busy to edit on a regular basis (and, hence, Admin as well). However, I do understand concensus -it is that ideal; So... would you care to vote on my request for feedback here? Vote any way you like, but be forewarned, I hope to seek enforcement for all equally of whatever the result is -and that means retroactive -that is, if the policy remains as is, you may hear me inform editors that the policy was not followed by those voting because they in fact did criticize me (in part) for concentrating to heavily on one area of the 'pedia here. However, if they were right, then change policy by all means.--GordonWatts 13:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
As I understand it, there is no policy to be changed. People are nominated or nominate themselves. Others come by and vote one way or another. A result emerges and the nomination passes or fails. People are free to support or oppose as they see fit, for whatever reasons take their fancy. The great glory of the process is its lack of structure. Anyone whose nomination fails is free to come back and try again after a month or so, but they are well advised to consider why they might have failed the first time and what actions they should take in the interim to address both the explicit and implicit objections that surfaced. As a general rule, going around the various fora complaining that one was the victim of an injustice or that the process needs to be changed is not generally speaking the best approach to adopt. To quote from one of my favourite books, "Master thyself, then others shall thee beare".

As for your invitation to vote, I'll decline, if you don't mind. I'd rather seek consensus, on the whole. Filiocht | Talk 14:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I quote:

"If you want to make enemies, try to change something."
-Woodrow Wilson

User:Nichalp/sg 13:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"As a general rule, going around the various fora complaining that one was the victim of an injustice or that the process needs to be changed is not generally speaking the best approach to adopt." You did not read what I wrote; I am not asking for change; I am asking for concensus. You may support or oppose my proposal. "As for your invitation to vote, I'll decline, if you don't mind." Well, I do mind if you criticize me for not seeking concensus, but when I finally do seek concensus, you criticize me; If this is not the right way, then pray tell, what is??--GordonWatts 14:20, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Please re-read my first post above, which begins Consensus is not achieved by voting. Now, do you not agree that by voting on your proposal, I'd be contradicting myself? Here's my proposed RfA procedure, quoting myself again: People are nominated or nominate themselves. Others come by and vote one way or another. A result emerges and the nomination passes or fails. People are free to support or oppose as they see fit, for whatever reasons take their fancy. The great glory of the process is its lack of structure. Anyone whose nomination fails is free to come back and try again after a month or so, but they are well advised to consider why they might have failed the first time and what actions they should take in the interim to address both the explicit and implicit objections that surfaced. Please note what aspects of this description of the process you disagree with, if you want to initiate a discussion which might or might not lead to a consensus. Please also note that the point you are inviting votes on is not a policy, but a guideline. Note also, in the light of your edit summary, that I did not post the Woodrow Wilson quote above. It may say something about your general willingness to take things personally that you managed to read this broadly sympathetic intervention by User:Nichalp as a criticism. Also, my remarks about your general behaviour on Misplaced Pages fora were not intended as a criticism, but as a pointer towards why you are failing to get much support. My guess is that you are generally pissing people off, though I may be wrong. Realistically, the best course of action open to you, if you really want to be an admin, is to drop this campaign, go about the business of editing and mantaining the project for a month or so, and then wait to see if someone else will nominate you (on the whole these nominations tend to be more successful than self-noms). If you are actually not that interested in being an admin but are just trying to make a point, please desist immediately. There is a policy that covers that kind of thing. I'll be leaving this PC shortly, so please do not take my failure to respond further today personally. Filiocht | Talk 14:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
"Now, do you not agree that by voting on your proposal, I'd be contradicting myself?" I disagree because voting and achieving a concensus are not mutually exclusive: you can do both at the same time. I am using a mathematical method of solititing feedback to see what the consensus is; it is more accurate than random questions, in which the amount of concensus is oft times misquoted. "Note also, in the light of your edit summary, that I did not post the Woodrow Wilson quote above." I saw that Nichalp posted it, but then I forgot: Oops! I am human. I attributed it to you. "It may say something about your general willingness to take things personally that you managed to read this broadly sympathetic intervention by User:Nichalp as a criticism." you misread me; I'm sorry for being ambiguous; I did not mean to either criticize or praise you (I though you had posted it), but merely to nickname you, as a way of providing an explanation point -somewhat humorously, like when one does it verbally. I think I'll be less ambiguous in the future. I agree that Pres. Wilson might be right, but I'm not looking for one particular outcome, so his humor is moot, but interesting. "My guess is that you are generally pissing people off, though I may be wrong." Both: I am both irritating and also beneficial: I have already been the catalyst for one change in policy: See the link below, where the "edit war" was added to the list of prohibitions for Featured Article candidates; I also prompted some to consider making the "vote closing" template stronger, but nothing came of it; I am -in this venture for feedback (and the link at bottom of page) trying to get clear on what's the real policy, according to concensus, which can change the policy if there is concensus to do so. As far as "how many votes" constitutes a clear concensus on my questions here, I will leave that to the Bureaucrats who traditionally count the votes and do this function, as in RfA. "If you are actually not that interested in being an admin but are just trying to make a point, please desist immediately." I'm not trying to "make a point." I'm trying to convince people to either follow policy, or change it -so the next guy in line here is not mistreated. OK, my turn for a funny quote -which you may have seen posted elsewhere: "If the rights of one are violated, the rights of all are at risk." --Thomas Paine In other words: I am trying to prevent the rights of one from being violated, so this doesn't spread to hurt other editors.--GordonWatts 15:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to add a positive rather than a negative to that statement - i.e., 1000 edits which demonstrate a breadth of involvement in the project. That is the reality - 1000 edits with none to the Misplaced Pages namespace isn't going to work in most cases, nor is 1000 VfD edits. Of course, it's an observation and not a rule, something to bear in mind if you are seeking nomination or to nominate another. Guettarda 15:32, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Note: Feel free to vote in opposition to my proposal if you like. See also: Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Issue_2:_The_.22What_is_a_Fac.22_standard for related proposals.

Incase you didn't notice, it wasn't a criticism, it is a famous quote. User:Nichalp/sg 14:26, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, I said this on your talk subpage, but it never got a response and you haven't otherwise addressed the point that I've seen, so here it is, for whatever good it may do:

I think your RfA proves that you are not a trusted member, which is not something easily determined beforehand. Perhaps I can only speak for myself: I don't trust you. Not being blocked for blatant abuse is not sufficient to establish trust. It indicates a lack of active distrust, or at least it indicates that no one has yet believed you were doing anything that was so destructive to the wiki that a note on your talk page wouldn't suffice to stop it. And no more than that. I do not trust you to follow community consensus, or to avoid getting into disputes with other admins, or to handle disputes in a reasonable manner; I would oppose your request for adminship because while you are known you are not trusted and thus you fail the second criterion. (And I don't give a damn about how many edits in what namespaces you have or how long you've been here, beyond the minimal standards needed to establish some sort of investment in your identity here.)

Perhaps I am wrong, and you would not do any of these things I fear. But I do not trust you, and your actions over the past week have not inspired confidence that I should. We have these loosely-defined guidelines so that we may interpret them liberally with judgment and discretion, and are not locked into a strict quantitative system which could be easily gamed. There are many flaws in the RfA process that have caused suitable candidates to fail to reach consensus. I do not believe your non-promotion is an example of this. You have received an expression of no confidence from the community, and so your trusted status was not as obvious as you may have thought. Policy was followed.

For someone to be violating your "rights" you have to have had them in the first place. You seem to think you have, which is not the case; the loose guidelines expressed for qualification for adminship do not entitle anyone to anything. You have the privilege of editing; you have requested the further privilege of a few extra technical capabilities, which with most—but not all—regular contributors there is no reason to deny. With you we denied them. Which does not impair your ability to use the site as you have been in any way. If we were really trying to censor you, you would have been blocked and your nimerous postings deleted, but as you can see they still stand.

Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. It's intended to be a community of reasonable people with the goal of building an encyclopedia; such policies as we do have are not intended to be hard rules robotically enforced, because reasonable people can be expected to use good sense and know when a guideline should be followed and when to adapt further to an individual situation. And when they disagree, to discuss. The only one here who seems to believe you have been mistreated is yourself. Please consider that this may mean that you have misjudged the community standards, rather than that the community has done you a gross injustice. Pushing the issue is helping neither you nor Misplaced Pages. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 15:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Kat here. Adminship is "no big deal", as you've so many times noted. But it's still something that we don't give to people if we don't think they can handle the responsibilities. I know that if I overstep my boundaries as an administrator, I will receive a sharp reply from involved editors (and well I should). And if I do something wrong as an administrator, I know that I will apologize for it, and attempt to make amends. That's all I ask in an administrator- to be able to admit when they're wrong, and make up for their mistakes. But you're showing me the polar opposite here. Ral315 16:23, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

First, in answer to Ral315: I came here to seek consensus, but instead of helping with the solution (voting above, either for me or against me), you gripe about a problem. You talk about problems, but you do not contribute to the solution. Talk the talk? Well, walk the walk. Also, while you may be disciplined for an overstep, I've already demonstrated several examples where a double standard has existed, implying it still does. (Quoting Kat) "I do not trust you to follow community consensus..." Sometimes policy trumps consensus -if the consensus is not willing to change the policy: My being criticized for the RfA renomination was a good example: Both policy and Mark, the FA editor (see Jimbo's page) said to go ahead, but Mark caved in to the other editors' concensus, which violated known policy: Consensus is not binding when it conflicts with policy, which allowed my FA-renomination, because the editors were perfectly able to change policy and didn't. This was double standard application, holding me to a nonpolicy standard. Also, sometimes concensus is "wrong." If you don't believe me, then please explain why the Titanic shipbuilders' (experts, no doubt) insisted by concensus to not include sufficient lifeboats on that big boat? Concensus is not always right. Don't forget that, Kat. "Perhaps I am wrong, and you would not do any of these things I fear." Well, I never had any problems before these people started deciding to use their own standards instead of policy. That is so easily remedied: Change policy -which is what I am trying to determine right here: Is a change in policy needed? You gripe about my actions, but you have not voted either for or against me above. If you want to complain, then earn my trust: Cast your vote, you and Ral315. You and anyone else that wants to talk, do something constructive instead of just talking; Then, we can talk after the work is done. Otherwise, your arguments are not persuasive: I'm doing my part. And you?--GordonWatts 17:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I have to concur with both of you guys, but try not to bite him too much, huh?

His RFA failed, but instead of being so angry or disturbed (thats the way its seems), he should try to address the issues that others have with him, since we are the ones who actually vote him in. All his demands etc really accomplishes nothing, and he should know that this will hurt his chances of becoming an admin; I dont reckon that many others will support him after seeing how he handle disputes.