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Revision as of 05:28, 15 October 2008 edit134.121.247.116 (talk) →GM vs Toyota ← Previous edit		Revision as of 08:01, 9 November 2008 edit undoSunray (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers37,109 edits Problematic sections moved to talk pageNext edit →
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	:If you have a good reference source, please feel free to add it to the article. ] (]) 23:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)		:If you have a good reference source, please feel free to add it to the article. ] (]) 23:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

			==Removed POV and poorly-sourced sections from article==
			The following sections have been moved here for discussion. Most of the information comes from a report by the National Labor Committee and is sourced to the committee's website, an AFL-CIO blog, an outfit called "How to Buy American and an article in the ''In the Times'' magazine. Despite the significance of the information, curiously, there is no coverage in any of the mainstream media. This seems odd.

			====Corporate Welfare and Government Subsidies====
			Toyota has received $371 million in state and local government tax subsidies since 1986. Toyota promised "good jobs”. Instead Toyota has given low wage communities $12 an hour jobs with little or no healthcare, firing of employees who are injured at work, and relying on temporary workers that earn half the wages of a permanent employee.<ref>http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/04/16/toyota-another-circuit-city/</ref>

			General Motors spent $5.2 billion on health care for employees in 2004. <ref>http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw/bamw-050507-gm.shtml</ref> However, many of the Toyota workers in the United States have little or no health insurance. Healthcare for the Toyota employees lacking health insurance is subsidized in part by the taxes from GM,Ford, and Chrysler employees.

			===Worker's rights===
			According to the National Labor Committee, Toyota has engaged in Sweatshop operations and human trafficking.<ref>http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562</ref>

			Toyota has been accused of firing its American employees who are injured on the job. <ref>http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/04/16/toyota-another-circuit-city/</ref>

			In Japan, 33% of Toyota workers (about 10,000) are temporary workers. Many of these temporary workers are from China or Vietnam and work for half of the minimum wage. They are forced to work 16 hour daily shifts. <ref>http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3796</ref>

			====Death====
			Kenichi Uchino died of work exhaustion in a Tsutsumi Toyota plant in 2002. He died during the 13th hour of his usual 14 hour shift. Uchino was not paid for most of his overtime while working for Toyota. <ref>http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3796</ref>

			====Notes====
			{{reflist}}

			I think that this information should be subjected to ] for the ] of its sources. Then it needs to be re-written in ] language. I cannot do that right now, so I've moved the information here in the hope that someone will be able to take a good look at it. ] (]) 08:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

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Doesn't Toyota own Subaru, as well? Or did I dream that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.241.69 (talk) 11:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

US autos illegal in Japan? Huh?

Can someone provide some evidence that US autos are not allowed to be sold in Japan, since this contradicts everything I've heard before? Ditto the no-US-factories rule. Davert (talk) 17:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Not illegal but government laws were designed to make it highly unprofitable. Back in the mid 30's, the Ford and GM had factories in Japan and looked liked they were going to squash the fledging Japanese industry through sheer might (the downside of capitalism is that startups are disadvantaged). So Japan changed the laws so that any automobile producer had to have a majority of Japanese citizen ownership and imports were heavily taxed. Add a bit of Japanese pride (don't buy foreign), the unsuitability of large, thirsty American cars in a developing country and there you have it. Some of the laws and circumstances have since changed again but it is still highly unprofitable for foreign (non Japanese) manufacturers. Much easier to buy a stake in Japanese companies (eg GM and Isuzu, Chrysler and Mitsubishi). Stepho-wrs (talk) 00:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I would have no ojbection to that being placed in the appropriate place. That said, your clarification is appreciated by me at least; which doesn't change the fact that American cars are not illegal in Japan. Davert (talk) 15:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I can attest to the fact that my own BMW was imported from Japan driven by a Japanese person for over 15 years. Whether it was made in Japan or Germany I do not know. --Kvasir (talk) 21:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

BMW has sales representative in Japan, sales only, no manufacturing at all. By the way, all non-Japanese brand car is imported car, not only BMW. Also some Japanese brand, Honda or Toyota imports into Japan from their U.S,A. factories for samall quantity though. --Namazu-tron (talk) 01:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry Toyota will be at top. It is matter of time

People who are posting that Toyota is the largest automaker shouldn't worry at all. It is matter of "when" than matter of "if." It is only a matter of time that Toyota will emerge as the largest automaker this year or the next. That is without a doubt. So don't worry and it will become largest. I think GM should enjoy it while it lasts. 71.229.195.124 (talk) 06:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC).

This makes little since to me. For starters Toyota soundly beats GM in revenue, I think it should be known that GM is the largest auto-seller, by amount sold, not even close to revenue made. That should be in the opening paragraph. Pavelow235 (talk)

Sure Toyota's profitability should be mentioned. It is stated in the article and should be in the lead. But rightly or wrongly, that is not how automobile makers are compared. Toyota compares to all other companies on profitability, not just GM. Also, don't forget that GM still surpasses all others in total vehicles produced (because of their truck sales). We also have to watch for comparisons between U.S. sales and total sales. Sunray (talk) 13:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry least about that. Toyota will soundly and decisively beat GM at some point. It *will* happen. Just relax. It won't be 3000 vehicle difference that GM did. It will come down to 100 thousands. There won't be ambiguous win. One day it will be number one. GM will hand it over to Toyota. Game over. Relax 71.237.70.49 (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

GM vs Toyota

I don't understand why we just leave out who is number 1. GM held it for many, many years. Now Toyota took it and then GM took it back. Come on, people races are not judged this way. We don't give a race car driver in the front with 10 laps to go 1st place. To count GM out is not very smart. Look at you history when Toyota first came to the U.S market it had to pull out few years later, only to return and now look at it. My point is to never count any one out. The "yahoo" page only saids that Toyota beat GM in the 1st quarter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim105 (talk • contribs) 07:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Win is a win. If GM beat Toyota that should be stated. If Toyota wins GM, it should be stated that Toyota won. Simple as that. It does matter who is the largest. GM has been the winner for 76 years, and that should be stated same as who is number 1 or two, which also should be stated. Toyota will be number one this year for sure by 100 thousands or more and I have no problem stating that. Misplaced Pages should change along with news so that is more relevant. Toyota and GM are definitely bitter rivals. 71.237.70.49 (talk) 23:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The situation, as I read it, is that Toyota surpassed GM in total automobile sales in 2007 and leads right now. However, T does not sell more total vehicles than GM (by a fair margin). So it is fine to say that T is ahead in automobile sales, but it should be pointed out that GM is still the largest manufacturer of motor vehicles. Sunray (talk) 01:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It should be pointed out, that Toyota is the largest manufacturer of motor vehicles, not GM. Dwilso 09:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please show me a reliable source that states that. In the alternative, the one I have given above, shows GM still well ahead. Sunray (talk) 06:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, you can visit these sites: http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080424-Toyota-Claims-World-s-Best-Selling-Automaker-Title/ and also, http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/business/worldbusiness/24auto.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin thank you. Dwilso 15:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Both references you give are from the same AP wire story which does indeed say that Toyota surpassed GM in total vehicle sales in Q1, 2008. The story notes that Toyota also topped GM in sales in Q1 of 2007, but not in total annual sales. Another source puts this into context in the following way: "Whether becomes the world’s No. 1 automaker depends on annual worldwide vehicle production, rather than sales, and final bragging rights for that won’t be decided until production numbers are tallied for the whole year." Since we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, I think we need to wait for the annual figures. Sunray (talk) 02:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Is the fact that Eiji Toyoda, the nephew of Sakichi Toyoda cam to the U.S. to study Fords lean process anywhere in the article? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWH/is_6_113/ai_76445159 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.65.21 (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is mentioned in the article. Sunray (talk) 02:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that GM tops in number of manufactured vehicles whether truck or consumer automobiles. This is the case because GM produces vehicles in volume even though they know that they could not sell them. Remember the crushing of the EV1's? I think they are doing this to keep their over sized plants running even at a steep loss. The complete opposite is what T is doing. Have you tried buying a Camry recently? There is a waiting list and you could stay in that list for weeks or months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.34.58 (talk) 14:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"Look at you history when Toyota first came to the U.S market it had to pull out few years later, only to return and now look at it. My point is to never count any one out."

During the 80s the US government singlehandedly saved the American big three from being dominated by Japan's big three when OPEC cut oil supply back, allowing the fuel efficient Japanese automakers to gain huge marketshare. The Japanese 'pulled out' because the US had imposed a Voluntary Export Restraint (VER) on the Japanese producers to avoid a complete disaster in one of America's vital industries. 134.121.247.116 (talk) 05:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Big Changes in trucks

I've noticed, Toyotas trucks use to be small and chepey, but now, there trucks are like Fords, but better with reliablity. The new Tundra for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Infomantoday (talk • contribs) 23:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If you can find a source for this feel free to add it into the article. Dayyanb (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not neutral or incomplete article

This article doesn't mention that after World War II Toyota was on the brink of bankruptcy due to a series of circumstances: the devastation consequent to the war, lack of skilled workers and technicians and, ultimately, poor quality of the products. A fair article should mention that the company was near extintion serabarto@yahoo.com . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.89.113.21 (talk) 15:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have a good reference source, please feel free to add it to the article. Stepho-wrs (talk) 23:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Removed POV and poorly-sourced sections from article

The following sections have been moved here for discussion. Most of the information comes from a report by the National Labor Committee and is sourced to the committee's website, an AFL-CIO blog, an outfit called "How to Buy American and an article in the In the Times magazine. Despite the significance of the information, curiously, there is no coverage in any of the mainstream media. This seems odd.

Corporate Welfare and Government Subsidies

Toyota has received $371 million in state and local government tax subsidies since 1986. Toyota promised "good jobs”. Instead Toyota has given low wage communities $12 an hour jobs with little or no healthcare, firing of employees who are injured at work, and relying on temporary workers that earn half the wages of a permanent employee.

General Motors spent $5.2 billion on health care for employees in 2004. However, many of the Toyota workers in the United States have little or no health insurance. Healthcare for the Toyota employees lacking health insurance is subsidized in part by the taxes from GM,Ford, and Chrysler employees.

Worker's rights

According to the National Labor Committee, Toyota has engaged in Sweatshop operations and human trafficking.

Toyota has been accused of firing its American employees who are injured on the job.

In Japan, 33% of Toyota workers (about 10,000) are temporary workers. Many of these temporary workers are from China or Vietnam and work for half of the minimum wage. They are forced to work 16 hour daily shifts.

Death

Kenichi Uchino died of work exhaustion in a Tsutsumi Toyota plant in 2002. He died during the 13th hour of his usual 14 hour shift. Uchino was not paid for most of his overtime while working for Toyota.

Notes

I think that this information should be subjected to verification for the reliablity of its sources. Then it needs to be re-written in neutral language. I cannot do that right now, so I've moved the information here in the hope that someone will be able to take a good look at it. Sunray (talk) 08:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

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