Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:15, 21 November 2008

This article was nominated for deletion on 14 November 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

People naming the the family concerned should be aware that the people they hurt the most are the siblings. Shame doing so are as bad as Haringey Council.

The case of Baby P (or Child A, as referred to by Haringey Council) has received extensive media coverage in the past few days (from BBC, the Guardian (links in article), and many other media outlets) and has sparked anger in the House of Commons, so seems notable enough of Misplaced Pages article. I'm not very confident at creating new articles, so I've made this very brief stub just to get the proverbial ball rolling - there's plenty of information out there, so hopefully others can help make an extensive article from it. Sorry it's so short at the moment! --saxsux (talk) 15:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Adding these sources to the article would help establish notability. -- Mufka 15:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a feeling that this situation will continue to gain stories in the coming days and weeks, so it seems to be a perfectly valid article. If there is to be a debate over whether or not to delete it, I'll get my vote in early that it should definitely by kept. This will likely be on the level of Victoria Climbie. Sky83 (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Dates

Whoops! I think I owe an apology to User:193.111.25.201 and User:Bnynms; I copied the infobox over from the Murder of Victoria Climbié and didn't change the dates properly. Guess I should've paid more attention to what I was doing... I'm adding the (now correct! :P) dates from this page into the article now. Sorry for wasting your time, guys. --saxsux (talk) 17:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Name

Revealing the name of the mother or the name of 'Baby P' is forbidden under the UK's (draconian) press censorship laws, but those laws do not apply to Misplaced Pages as it is not UK hosted. Should we post the real name of 'Baby P'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.44.188 (talk) 01:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC) I say yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.212.16.30 (talk) 07:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In theory I agree that it's pointless, but the baby and the parents have actually been named in the past on the BBC website, and the article is still up now. I don't really think it matters either way, but if the BBC are technically violating the court order, I don't see that Misplaced Pages have any loyalty to it. Sky83 (talk) 09:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This is more of a moral issue (something prehaps Wiki doesn't want or should get involved in). The UK courts protect the parents name for the simple reason of trying not to affect the other siblings more than they are already. Its not really draconian as using the parents name achieves nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mw-wsh (talk • contribs) 10:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I would urge against it. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Privacy_of_names says:

Caution should be applied when naming individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed (such as in certain court cases), it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context.

Adding the name would achieve nothing, and would contribute very little to the article. --saxsux (talk) 13:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I've just reverted an edit that names the parents and lodger in the case, as the referenced source (the gutter e-tabloid http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/?c=117&a=1551 - "Uncovered: The Vile Mother of Baby P") should not be considered a reliable source. I think Misplaced Pages should only be a source of well-established facts, and not a portal to possibly defamatory sensationalist tabloid journalism. The majority of opinions expressed in this section so far agree with my thoughts that the individuals involved should not be named here, as does the guideline Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Privacy_of_names - Oscroft (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

My reversion above has just been reverted without reference to this talk page, but it has been re-reverted - there might be an anonymous editor intent on a reversion war (I have issued a warning). If the majority opinion is to allow the people in question to be named here (with the risk of opening innocent family members to abuse) then I will happily acquiesce, but such a decision needs to be arrived at here, and not decided by anonymous editors. Does anyone have any more thoughts? Oscroft (talk) 14:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

They should not be named here, not only do well-established guidelines forbid this, but there are precedents too, such as Nevada-tan. All those who do know the names (most here probably do) should be vigilant for redirects. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the names belong in the article, but I'm not going to implement them. I am going to tidy up the grammar in the top of the article and work the "(name protected)" business into the actual sentences, though. --Roman à clef (talk) 15:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I tinkered with it more than I expected to, but it needed tinkering. In any case, I believe the article would benefit at least a small amount by having the names present. Can one of the wikilawyers out there confirm or deny whether they should or can be put in? --Roman à clef (talk) 16:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, there's a reference to the name of the lodger on the sky news site which is a tad more reliable. Also, a consideration: as it's mentioned in the talk pages, all a user would have to do to see the supposed names would be compare revisions - one of the joys of a Wiki, so may I suggest it's either put into the article or deleted from the history as the current position is that it's viewable but not displayed instantly. (My personal vote would be for deletion until the case is settled - less chance of backlash in case of issues and it doesn't materially add to the story.). The sky news article mentioned is here: Basiclife (talk) 18:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with above. There does seem to be general consensus regarding the names on the web, but I'm not sure that they need to be hosted here 86.128.76.185 (talk) 21:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Naming the baby on Misplaced Pages is allowed by law as it isn't governed by British law. The name is publicly known and if we're going to post on wikipedia an article about a baby that was tortured to death and now is in a pauper's grave we could at least say the name that is known including on the Internet. There are even Facebook pages and group titles with his name in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.197.35 (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I too urge that this article name both the victim and the killers. Several people have stated that the names wouldn't add anything to the article, but that's a perverse thing to say without any justification: of course it adds something, it adds the names of the victims and the killers, which most media sources have been prevented from publishing by a British court that apparently has no jurisdiction over what is written here. It would be unwikipedian to speculate on the reasons for the court order and then to act to suppress information based on those speculations; in my view freedom of information on the internet trumps such concerns in any case even if they were correct, but given all we have at the moment is speculation, that's not good enough. After all, had their been no court order the article obviously would not exclude the names for any reason, and as far as I'm concerned the fact that a court order has been passed carries no moral weight here. Lordrosemount (talk) 21:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Suppressing is a strong word and entirely innapropriate. It merely serves to inflame emotion around free speech rather than aiding the debate in any way. No information is being supressed by Misplaced Pages since nobody is going out and trying to prevent people from obtaining this information if they want. It is merely not being repeated here since it serves no useful purpose in an encyclopedic article and only serves to gratify certain people's morbid curiosity into the whole affair. "speculation" is mentioned, but there is absolutely no speculation whatsoever that there has been an order preventing the identification of those convicted in the Baby P case and that order has been made by a respected body - a UK court. And if you want to read more about how seriously this is being taken, have a look here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7740687.stm GDallimore (Talk) 09:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I object very strongly to your editing my post, without even mentioning that you'd done it or providing any justification for doing so. The remark you deleted was a direct response to the concern raised above that the source previously provided for the name was not valid for citation, by way of an attempt to help reach consensus; I appreciate that this was not your argument and you may not agree with its relevance, but my post was not a response to you. I therefore have re-inserted the comment. Secondly, the notion that the only motivation a person might have for wishing to know or to seek to refer to the real names of these individuals is to "gratify morbid curiousity" is blatantly speculative and also prejudiced; personally the reason I've taken to using the names is that I reckon the designation "Baby P" is frankly ridiculous, particularly of a chald of one and a half years old, and because I object to the notion that we ought to tiptoe around these things or, indeed, protect the identities of convicted killers. These, I know, are my opinions, but notice I'm not using them as arguments in favour of naming, but just to refute your (equally POV) suggestion that there's only one possible motive for wanting the names used. Thirdly, I stand by my use of the word "suppression", and reject your limited redefinition as not what I had intended. Finally, I had already read that BBC article at the time I posted - that was what promoted me to check Misplaced Pages to see what was going on here, as a matter of fact - and again reject its relevance on the grounds that that article was referring specifically to UK-based web sites, and since Misplaced Pages is not based in the UK it was proposed above that this site is therefore not subject to the order. We haven't yet had clarification over this, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the only real issue.Lordrosemount (talk) 11:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The mother, the partner and his brother were named last November (2007) when they were sent for trial at the Old Bailey. The names are in the local and national press of the time and pre-date any gagging order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.61.148 (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That the names were revealed last November has no bearing on this matter. A court order forbidding them from being named superceded the November 2007 publication. The reason for not naming them has nothing to do with the siblings. It has to do with contempt of court. The case is an "active" case until those convicted are sentenced. It is still contempt whether or not Misplaced Pages is subject to British law. As the person who originally posted their names on wikipedia appears to live in the Norfolk, UK area they could be open for to prosecution. Let's get this into our heads, folks, Misplaced Pages is not above the law. 86.13.123.171 (talk) 02:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC) A lawyer writes

Ultimately, no discussion here is going can overrule the more general guideline posted here: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Privacy_of_names which pretty clearly states that the names should not be added without a good reason why adding them would help improve understanding of the topic. The onus is on the person wishing to add the names, not those wishing to remove them. GDallimore (Talk) 10:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Leaving aside the killers for a moment, it does seem perverse to me to invoke a policy entitled "Biographies of living persons" to defend the removal of the name of a tragically dead child. Also, based on your characterisation of the policy and considering you've just dismissed the relevance of the court order yourself, can I ask why this case is any different to any other in which living people are named? Myra Hindley is notable pretty much exclusively in the context of the murders she committed, and the details of her crimes and what happened to her afterwards could all be explained perfectly well without the inclusion of her name; do you propose we should therefore delete it? Lordrosemount (talk) 11:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not above the law of the state of Florida where I understand its servers are based. It is not subject to the law of England any more than it is the People's Republic of China. Misplaced Pages is not censored, and prior restraint should only be invoked for good cause - such as that there is another trial still going on where the jurors might be prejudiced by knowing the (now-widely-published on the net) names of the perps in a related case. If this is the case, it should be argued here as overriding the non-censorship policy of WP. At one time the face of Baby P was pixellated by court order, but British newspapers successfully argued that this was disrespectful and unnecessary. The same argument, I suggest, applies to censoring the full forename of "Baby P".--Straw Cat (talk) 12:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If you actually read WP:CENSOR you'll see that your statement that it is to do with offensive and objectionable material and is therefore not relevant here. It also makes clear that it is over-ridden by other policies even if it were. Arguments on censorship have been raised and dispensed with already so there is no point discussing them further. GDallimore (Talk) 12:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

They have not been "dispensed with". They are relevant and crucial. The onus is on those who wish to censor, to justify their case. In this case, as in Victoria Climbie, if you study the case you will find that the authorities, who have a problem with accountability, have tried to withhold information, even from the proper authorities (see Lord Laming's report on Climbie, where Laming had to threaten the Chief Exective of Haringey with arrest if he did not stop witholidng vital documents). Offensive as ppublication of the emerging facts may be to some Haringey employees and councillors, the only hope for vulnerable children in Haringey is that lessons are learnt; this can only happen if the truth comes out, and Misplaced Pages has a part to play in this.--Straw Cat (talk) 12:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason that they have not been named is because they are to be charged with abusing/torturing one of Baby P siblings. It is asumed Jason Owen will not be brought to trial as his name is in the public domain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.61.148 (talk) 19:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It is a difficult one to decide. On the one hand, there is no doubt as to the identities of the Mother and Boyfriend. Their names can easily be found by anybody who cares to do even the most cursory search on the net (often from reputable news sources published before the gagging order), and it takes very little more to find the name of Baby P himself, or the names of his Sisters and Father. On the other hand, whilst this information can be obtained by anybody who wants it, it is a little different putting it into a Misplaced Pages article where it will be found by those who haven't made a conscious decision to seek the name out.

On balance, not naming seems appropriate.

The one caveat that I would place on this is that the Child concerned had a name, and that given that his identity is hardly an inpenetrable secret, it might be appropriate to relax our stance sufficient to allow that he can at least be called by his own first forename.Mayalld (talk) 21:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Category:British murdered children

I saw that User:EchetusXe moved the article from Category:British children to Category:British murdered children, but Baby P has, technically, not been murdered - the mother, boyfriend and Jason Owen were all found guilty of causing or allowing the death of Baby P, not of murdering him - so I'm not sure whether categorising the article as "British murdered children" is entirely appropriate. Does anyone object to moving it back into the original category? Thanks --saxsux (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

No objections, so I've moved the article back to Category:British children. --saxsux (talk) 12:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Name Change?

Following the Articles for Deletion debate, linked at the top, editors suggested numerous name changes to the article. I would like to initiate the name change debate. As I have spotted Victoria Klimbé has an article under her own name, keeping "Baby P" has to be an option, but I am aware others may wish to consider other names. Below is a list of suggestions from the top of my head, debate and suggestions are welcome!

• Keep as "Baby P"
• Move to "2008 Haringey Council Social Services scandal" or similar
• Move to "2008 UK Social Services court case" or similar

doktorb _words 10:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

At this time, I think it would be inappropriate to designate the name of the article as anything other than what it already is. In the future, it might be possible to change it to something else, but at this point in time, the whole entire situation is known under the banner of Baby P. Once investigations have been completed and the outcomes of those are known, there could maybe be another debate to decide if the article should be renamed. I strongly oppose changing the title now though. Sky83 (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

See WP:COMMONNAME, Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions#Use the most easily recognized name, and be precise when necessary. I haven't come across one source that would call it the the scandal/court case/investigation of Haringey Council/UK Social Services. Keep it at Baby P but add either case or abuse case onto it. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• I would favour a move to a case name. Although the anonymity of 'Baby P' could be considered a case name, it is ambiguous, and it would still fall foul of WP:BLP1E. The controversy surrounding the case is real, and there are likely to be consequences on the publication of the inquiry. However, the infant itself is not notable and will never be, so the article should centre around the case. The simplest would be to rename it "The 'Baby P' case" or "The murder of 'Baby P'" in the same manner of Murder of Victoria Climbié. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that a different article name would be appropriate (as per WP:BLP1E). BBC News reports that neither the mother, her boyfriend or Jason Owen were found guilty of murder - their charges were of "causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable person" - so "Murder of Baby P" would be inappropriate. I think "Death of Baby P" or "Case of Baby P" would be preferable, but I'm somewhat unsure of the latter; the article doesn't just cover the case itself - there is substantial section regarding the aftermath (ie Government response, investigations, etc) - so maybe naming the article "Case" would not be entirely appropriate. On the other hand, the article regarding the death of Maria Colwell is just titled Maria Colwell, and doesn't seem to have met any criticism. --saxsux (talk) 12:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

As a passing editor just interested in looking at the article, I would say "Death of Baby P" would be the most appropriate. The article is not about "Baby P" but about what happend or was done to him and the subsequent events. The current title is therefore entirely misleading as well as being contrary to Misplaced Pages:Biography#People_notable_only_for_one_event and related guidelines. "Case" isn't enough because it was his death that sparked the media and government attention. This style of naming would also be consistent with "Murder of Victoria Climbié" which is a Good Article. The case seems so clear cut to me that, if no objections are made in the next few hours, I'll be bold and make the move myself. GDallimore (Talk) 14:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Clarification. I'm not saying it's clear cut that "Death of Baby P" is the right title, and that might need more discussion, but I think it is entirely clear that the current title is the wrong one as said by many people, including those in the AfD discussion. GDallimore (Talk) 14:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

editorial control

This query was removed because it also contained information that was covered by a UK court order. Now that the details have been remove, the query is still worth answering.John Vandenberg 20:20, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this page governed by British Law or fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.207.31 (talk) 12:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

This page, like all others, is governed by Misplaced Pages policies, however more importantly, editorial decisions by Misplaced Pages editors shape the article. We have policies on living people, and verifiability, and many others.

"Fact" is always an imperative on Misplaced Pages, however not all facts are needed in order to describe the events in an educational format. The names of the people are being removed from this article in order to protect the living.

British people are governed by British Law, and it is quite possible that British editors are found to be in contempt of court if they participated in the development of this article if it contravenes the British court order.

For this reason, Misplaced Pages editors like to respect the laws of all related country where possible; if we do not do that, editors from that country can no longer participate in the article, or do so at undesirable risks to themselves.

John Vandenberg 20:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, John, for you clear and succint explanation. GDallimore (Talk) 10:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

misattributed diff due to oversight

This diff is attributed to Chris Neville-Smith, however it should be attributed to Ecoleetage. This is an unfortunate effect of how oversight works. John Vandenberg 20:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Daily Mail

What exactly is wrong with including links from the Mail? If it's a question of balance, then you might as well get rid of all those Guardian and BBC links as well... MultipleTom (talk) 17:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly what I did next: moved links that could be used as sources into the relevant places in the article and deleted the rest per WP:ELNO no. 1. I just started on the Daily Mail since that was the most recently added link and seemed to have the least to contribute to the article as a whole. GDallimore (Talk) 17:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people