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| :::Also, there's some ] going on in "Some ... activists" - when you go through the effort to answer the weasel-squashing questions - Who? How many? and so on, then suddenly "Bob Smith said on his website that he believes..." becomes very obviously not worthy of inclusion, because Bob is not notable. This might change if, for example, Bob has been arrested in a high-profile animal rights case that is mentioned in the article - now Bob's self-sourced view of the situation is possibly inclusion-worthy. Citing many individual non-notable websites and creating a chorus would be ] in most cases, and again if the viewpoint as a whole is notable then it will have been mentioned in a better source. Some discretion is required, but this is the general feel of it. ] (]) 04:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | :::Also, there's some ] going on in "Some ... activists" - when you go through the effort to answer the weasel-squashing questions - Who? How many? and so on, then suddenly "Bob Smith said on his website that he believes..." becomes very obviously not worthy of inclusion, because Bob is not notable. This might change if, for example, Bob has been arrested in a high-profile animal rights case that is mentioned in the article - now Bob's self-sourced view of the situation is possibly inclusion-worthy. Citing many individual non-notable websites and creating a chorus would be ] in most cases, and again if the viewpoint as a whole is notable then it will have been mentioned in a better source. Some discretion is required, but this is the general feel of it. ] (]) 04:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
| == Help in defense of WP:V == | |||
| I could use a little help convincing some of the regular motorcycle-enthusiast editors at ] that the ] for finding sources that substantiate challenged material in an article falls fully on those adding and supporting that material, not on those challenging it. My exuberance in making this point has turned into an issue in and of itself, including two ANIs and now an RfC. I feel I've lost all credibility with them, no matter how persuasive my arguments may be. They're not persuasive to them, because they are mine. Or maybe they're not persuasive to anyone... you tell me... | |||
| The real issue ultimately centers on which, among other things, added the following statement to the article intro: '''" is illegal in the US except in California"'''. The sources indicate, and ("Lane Splitting" - Not referenced in Administrative Code or Statutes), that the legality of lane splitting is a gray area, at least in those states (like CA and MT) where lane splitting is not explicitly banned by statute. | |||
| But my argument is simply that the "is illegal in the US except in California" statement is not supported by ''any'' citation, much less one that is verifiable, reliable and authoritative, that I ''challenge'' its veracity, and, even if I'm wrong, the burden on them is to prove me wrong (by finding a source). The regulars there who disagree with me, primarily Dbratland , Tedder and Biker Biker have argued, or , that it is the one challenging the material that has the burden, or at least a share of that burden, to find sources supporting their view. | |||
| I understand why someone might be reluctant to step into this quagmire, but I'm hoping that those of you who watch this page would have an inherent interest in conveying the importance of editors adhering to this '''policy''' page, and, in particular, the WP:BURDEN section: {{quotation|The ''burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material''. All quotations and any material '''challenged or likely to be challenged''' must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an ]}} | |||
| For those of you who look into it, I think it can only improve Misplaced Pages, and how much editors take WP:V as seriously as it needs to be taken. Thank you. --] (]) 06:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 06:13, 4 June 2009
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What about subjects where the only sources are inherently unreliable
A particular one comes to mind - the article on Gurdjieff largely relies on recollections and autobiographical tales as told by himself. Is it really acceptable? Especially since most of it is simply not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kotika98 (talk • contribs) 14:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Using Misplaced Pages as a source
MyWikiBiz references an apology from Jimbo. This reference is only to a post by Jimbo in a Misplaced Pages talk page. It's also clearly appropriate as a self-published source.
Therefore, I suggest changing
Misplaced Pages itself is self-published. Therefore articles and posts on Misplaced Pages, or on websites that mirror its content, may not be used as sources.
to
Misplaced Pages itself is self-published. Therefore articles and posts on Misplaced Pages, or on websites that mirror its content, may only be used as sources in situations where self-published sources are allowed.
Ken Arromdee (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- WP:SELFREF already addresses the subject.LeadSongDog come howl 17:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's about something different--it's about not writing an article in a way that only makes sense if the article is on Misplaced Pages. It doesn't really address using Misplaced Pages as a source.
- The problem is that that section of WP:V contradicts other policies. It's written so that Misplaced Pages can't be used as a source at all because it's self-published. But elsewhere we don't bar the use of self-published sources at all. In fact we allow them in limited circumstances. If the rationale for restricting the use of Misplaced Pages as a source is that it's self-published, then it should also be allowed in those limited circumstances. Ken Arromdee (talk) 20:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Wherever, the point is that WP should not be relying on itself for verification - it's a recipe for self-supporting fallacies. A vandal or even an erroneous good faith edit introducing a fallacy to one article is a limited problem. But if other articles rely on that article for verification, the problem becomes much larger in scope. So we don't do that.LeadSongDog come howl 21:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- This is a very cumbersome way to put it. You are effectively saying "Don't do X, except when X is allowed". It may be best to leave it the way it is and the let people use their common sense to determine when to make exceptions. The policy isn't a firm rule after all. --causa sui 21:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do understand what Arromdee is trying to say. Perhaps a better way to express it is:
- Misplaced Pages itself is self-published. Therefore articles and posts on Misplaced Pages should not be used as sources (An exception may be made when sourcing articles about Misplaced Pages). Also, to avoid inadvertant self referencing, websites that mirror Misplaced Pages's content should never be used as sources.
- Would that clear the confusion up? Blueboar (talk) 00:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still worried about enumerating the exception, since it creates the impression that other (unforseeable) exceptions couldn't be made without also editing them into the policy. That opens the door for instruction creep by creating the impression that all possible exceptions are listed in the policy and everything else is forbidden. Try this:
- Misplaced Pages itself is self-published. Therefore, articles and posts on Misplaced Pages should generally not be used as sources. Also, to avoid inadvertent self referencing, websites that mirror Misplaced Pages's content should never be used as sources.
- --causa sui 00:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do understand what Arromdee is trying to say. Perhaps a better way to express it is:
- That works for me... but then I tend to focus on intent rather than obscessing about exact wording (ie wikilawyering). Blueboar (talk) 01:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
You're 1) justfying the limit on using Misplaced Pages as a source by saying it's self-published, yet 2) putting stricter limits on it than on other self-published sources. Those don't go together. And in my original post I gave an example of an article which uses Misplaced Pages as a source right now in an obviously useful way.
As for the possibility of a vandal introducing an error and then referencing it somewhere else, it would still be subject to other limits concerning self-published sources. A self-published source by the vandal is only allowed if it's about the vandal and there's no doubt the vandal published it. Your scenario, then, would be that the vandal mentions something about himself on a talk page, signs it in such a way that nobody doubts it's from himself, then uses that talk page as a reference for what his own words are. I somehow don't think this is a big problem, and if a vandal wanted to do this, he doesn't need Misplaced Pages--he could just use his own blog instead (which would be a self-published source too). Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- We may not express the why' all that well... but there is clear consensus that we should not use one Misplaced Pages article as a source within another. WP:SPS is but ONE reason. Another is that Misplaced Pages is subject to rapid change, so something we are citing to in one of our articles may not be in the article the next time someone tries to verify it. To me, the most important reason is that doing so would set up a self-reference. The only time we should allow a citation to Misplaced Pages is in the context of an article about Misplaced Pages. Blueboa r (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages being subject to rapid change is a non-issue. You link to a specific version, which doesn't change. And to clarify, are you saying that the reference in MyWikiBiz ought to be removed? Ken Arromdee (talk) 00:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- In the case of MyWikiBiz, the article clearly involves Misplaced Pages, and so could be cited for certain kinds of information. However the statement "when was banned from Misplaced Pages" could not be supported just with a citation to Misplaced Pages, because the true identity of Misplaced Pages editors is seldom known. --Jc3s5h (talk) 01:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- I understand and agree with the objections to the existing phrasing. Self-published sources are not completely unusable, so saying that wikipedia is a SPS is not an adequate explanation for "never" (with few exceptions) using it. Self-reference is the real issue. It's also fairly pointless except as described above. Why cite a wikipedia article when it would be more helpful to the reader to cite that article's sources directly? Mishlai (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Are we all in agreement that Misplaced Pages should not be used as a source (except in articles about Misplaced Pages)?... if so, then it is just a matter of properly explaining why this is so.
- To toss in another reason... Misplaced Pages is not considered a reliable source (being an open Wiki) and we should not cite unreliable sources. Blueboar (talk) 00:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- But that's still no different from other self-published sources. Other self-published sources aren't considered reliable either. And if they're web pages, the author can change them at any time. In fact, that's worse than Misplaced Pages, since on Misplaced Pages you can link to a specific revision and then the fact that the Wiki is open is no longer relevant (since nobody can change the specific revision).
- I just don't see any justification for treating Misplaced Pages as worse than other self-published sources. And the current wording seems to do so without good justification; it basically says "Misplaced Pages is as bad as other self-published sources, so it must be treated worse". Ken Arromdee (talk) 22:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ken, are you arguing that we should be able to cite one wikipedia article in another wikipedia article? If so, I can assure you that will not fly. We may be having difficulty expressing why we don't allow it... but it is fairly clear that consensus is that we shouldn't. Blueboar (talk) 00:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- All information in a Misplaced Pages article is supposed to be sourced to somewhere else. A self-published source is only useful if it gives information about the author that can't be found somewhere else. So even if we allow Misplaced Pages as a self-published reference, it would never be possible to use a Misplaced Pages article as a self-published source in another Misplaced Pages article (unless you're talking about their activities in Misplaced Pages).
- However, this reasoning isn't true of talk pages or other parts of Misplaced Pages. Certainly if someone apologizes to another person in a talk page that's just as good a source as if they put it on their blog instead. (That's the scenario that led me to write this in the first place: someone apologized to someone else on a talk page. We'd have accepted it if it was in a blg instead.) Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- There are several problems with citing Misplaced Pages: (1) Misplaced Pages does not publish, but is (for the most part) a collection of single edits that in most cases cannot be regarded as published text. (2) It's hard to determine whether an edit expresses the true opinion of an author, or even his or her real assessment of a certain fact, or whether it is an attempt to find a compromise. (3) Some Misplaced Pages content gets deleted, of course, including some page histories. (4) Talk page edits are often not intended for the general public, but are part of a specific conversation between involved editors. Almost all of Misplaced Pages thus cannot be regarded as a self-published source. Cs32en 01:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- 1) Such a single edit was created by one person and was put up with the full knowledge that everyone on the Internet can see it. It's beyond me how you can say that that isn't self-published.
- 2) That is basically saying "Misplaced Pages is worse than other self-published sources because people on Misplaced Pages are more likely to express opinions that are not truly their own." I find this unbelievable. (Also, compromising isn't the same as lying.)
- 3) This is no different than using any web page as a self-published source. All web pages can be edited or deleted; we still accept web pages as self-published sources.
- 4) See 1. All Misplaced Pages edits are, in some sense, intended for the general public; someone who edits Misplaced Pages knows very well that the general public can see it, and does it anyway.
- Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- How about WP links that double as informal non-WP cites? Some examples, from the Ninth Amendment article:
However, Justice William O. Douglas rejected that view; Douglas wrote that, "The Ninth Amendment obviously does not create federally enforceable rights." See Doe v. Bolton (1973)... Justice Antonin Scalia has expressed the same view, in Troxel v. Granville (2000)... Justice Arthur Goldberg (joined by Chief Justice Earl Warren and Justice William Brennan) expressed this view in a concurring opinion in the case of Griswold v. Connecticut (1965)...
- IMHO, naming the case should satisfy citation requirements - it's not a conventional 'footnote' cite, but it gives the reader all the information they need to go check out 'Doe v. Bolton' for themselves. However, the USC opinions are heavy and painful reading, so it's user-friendly to point the reader to a WP article that discusses them in plain English. Combining both these things in a single link seems like an efficient and readable way to do it. --GenericBob (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Linking is not the same as citation. In a link we are not using the article as a source for information, we are mearly saying "see here for an article on this topic". So far we have been talking about using Misplaced Pages as a source. Blueboar (talk) 01:48, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- A citation need not be in a footnote. If the information needed to find the source can be conveniently put in the running text, that's fine. Probably the most common examples of this come up when writing about books and films; just mentioning the title of these is an adequate reference in some cases. If Misplaced Pages happens to have an article about it, it can be linked to the article too, but it is the named work that is serving as a source, not the Misplaced Pages article. --Jc3s5h (talk) 01:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
New inline tag proposal
In editing an article which seem to have to have some poor use of SPSs i wondered if an inline tag might be useful to allow editor to find better sources. User:Neon_white/self-published --neon white talk 10:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- In general if I found an SPS supported statement where such a source was not acceptable I would just remove it, reword it, or resource it to conform with policy. You could also just strip the source and fact tag it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mishlai (talk • contribs)
- True but a specific tag, allows an editor to see what exactly is considered wrong with the current source expecially if there is a dispute. --neon white talk 10:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
conflict of interest causing content removal?
An article can't be a GA if it has unsourced content, and that appears to cause a conflict of interest for those editors wishing to increase their association with GA/FA/&c. or for those who are overzealous about WP policy, favouring appearance and style rather than content. This kind of "corrective" editing is likely to repel primary contributors (← please read that), and without their content, WP consumes itself and withers.
A case in point concerns the article Stalker in which a quote of significant relevance and interest was removed (moved to the talk page) by a WP administrator (!?), along with similar content which was tagged as unsourced. The edit summary merely reads "corrections and fixes throughout". (I only discovered it because I returned to the article, several months after reading it, to find the quote again, but it was gone, so I examined the edit history.)
Naturally, primary contributors are likely to be unfamiliar with WP policy (regarding verifiability, &c.), and it seems foolish to expect them to be otherwise.
WP:Verifiability states:
Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed
you may move the material to the talk page.
however, it also states:
it has always been good practice, and expected behavior of Misplaced Pages editors (in line with our editing policy), to make reasonable efforts to find sources oneself that support such material, and cite them.
I suggest and request that the policy be changed to support content, primary contributors and readers by explicitly deprecating the removal of unsourced content (assuming it appears to be relevant and useful) unless a thorough search for sources has failed. Further, if content is removed (or moved to the talk page), the edit summary should clearly indicate that. Moving content to the talk page has problems because it removes context and the content is likely to be forgotten unless an active discussion is already underway.
It may be difficult for those on the inside, familiar with WP policy, to understand the outer perspectives of primary contributors and readers, but I think that is essential to the healthy development of WP. —Richard Taytor (talk) 02:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think this discussion is more appropriate in the reliable sources talk, but I largely agree with you. If I see an unsourced statement, I will try to source it. If I don't have time and I think that the statement is probably/possibly true, I will fact tag it. If the statement strikes me as probable rubbish, I will go ahead and remove it, stating in the edit summary that it can be added back in if sourced.
- We should not discourage edits from outside of the more policy-knowledgeable wiki community, but neither is it ok for questionable and unsupported statements to stand unchallenged. One of the things that the off-wiki community will need to come to understand is that wikipedia relies heavily upon citation, and that adding unsourced information is inviting it to be removed. To some extent, challenging unsourced info via removal furthers that goal - though I still would not remove what I considered to be a valuable but as-yet-unsourced contribution. Removing unsourced material is also good for Misplaced Pages's reputation off-wiki, which I estimate to be lower than we would like. Mishlai (talk) 04:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- We need people to remove uncited material because that's how we stop people from sneaking all kinds of actually false claims into the article. If someone is being a bit overzealous about removing content that could easily be sourced, discussing it with that person would be a better idea than going to the policy and creating the false impression that editors don't have to add citations for the claims they add to articles. --causa sui 04:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think we have to achieve a bit of ballance here... there is a difference between how we deal with unsourced statements in a new article (look for sources ourselves, tag if we can not find one, etc.), and how we deal with unsourced statements in an article that is being considered for GA status (remove to talk page for discussion, or delete completely). We also have to consider how long a statement has remained unsourced after it has been tagged (there comes a point when we can assume it can not be sourced).
- There is a happy medium between Inclusion and Exclusion. It is not always easy to achieve, but it does exist. Blueboar (talk) 14:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do essentially as Mishlai--it depends on the article and the material. In my experience, it is possible to destroy an article by insisting on exact citation for even the obvious pieces, word by word through the article--and then challenging the reliability of every source. This is also a common tactic in dealing with a disliked aspect, or portion that contradicts owns own POV. It is equally possible to turn an article or section into pure promotion (or abuse) by inserting multiple pieces of material that don't actually have any sources. DGG (talk) 03:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Are there any objections to the following?
- Unsourced content, which appears to be otherwise relevant and useful, should not be removed unless a reasonable search for sources has failed. If such content is removed (or moved to the talk page), the edit summary should clearly indicate that. —Richard Taytor (talk) 07:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'd support the second sentence, but not the first. We don't want people to think they must search for a source before removing something if it strikes them as wrong and it's unsourced. Especially at GA level, which you mentioned above, an article should definitely be well-sourced. SlimVirgin 09:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with SV here. By all means encourage editors to search for sources rather than just deleting, but the onus needs to be on the person who adds claims. --GenericBob (talk) 10:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Rules like this...
...are the reason that no one trusts Misplaced Pages as a reliable source. Verifiability over truth? Jesus. The concept speaks of idiocy. Basically what this article is saying is that, even if something is widely known as true, it is not wiki-worthy unless some source specifically states it.
This article also seems to indicate that even if a source has printed faulty information, faulty information that comes from a cited source is better than true information that comes from common sense, common knowledge, or individual knowledge. There is no rhyme, reason, or logic to this concept.
This rule should be changed in order to make Misplaced Pages look like less of a joke to the average person. 76.217.89.51 (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- So, how would you propose to tell the difference between true information that comes from common sense, and false information that comes from what somebody believes is common sense? --GenericBob (talk) 14:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- How about Verifiability in search of truth?-- Legeres (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Buried deep in this pages history, you could find that same consternation posted by me. I think in large part, the opening statement is what often leads to this topic of discussion.
- The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.
I think that many people see that bold "verifiability, not truth", and take it out of context of the entire paragraph. (personally, I'd lose the bold immediately). I'd also change it to verifiability, of truth. Just a thought as I wander through the 'pedia. — Ched : ? 17:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- Verifiability of truth sound much better.-- Legeres (talk) 12:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Verifiability and truth aren't alternatives here. Truth (on WP) is established through verifiability. That could probably be expressed clearer in the policy. The phrase "verifiability, not truth" is certainly pretty unhelpful. Rd232 12:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think it can be helpful, but it's easy to misunderstand. Maybe I'm in the minority, but when I read it, it immediately made sense to me: what it told me was that I should only put information in articles that I knew to be verifiable, and not information that I knew to be true. The former standard is much higher than the latter because it includes the concept of truth in it. Not only must it be true, but it must be verifiably true. I think that's key. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive because one is contained in the other. The policy wants to make clear that the higher standard is our standard, because we want everyone reading the articles to be able to check the facts for themselves. Maybe the policy could be reformed to communicate that idea more explicitly. --causa sui 13:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I meant it was unhelpful because once you understand it, it's meaningful, but to people trying to understand the policy, it's easily misunderstood. I'd be quite happy to do away with the phrase! Rd232 14:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be in favor of replacing it with something better. How about "The standard for inclusion is not only truth, but verifiable truth." Or something to that effect? --causa sui 14:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I meant it was unhelpful because once you understand it, it's meaningful, but to people trying to understand the policy, it's easily misunderstood. I'd be quite happy to do away with the phrase! Rd232 14:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think it can be helpful, but it's easy to misunderstand. Maybe I'm in the minority, but when I read it, it immediately made sense to me: what it told me was that I should only put information in articles that I knew to be verifiable, and not information that I knew to be true. The former standard is much higher than the latter because it includes the concept of truth in it. Not only must it be true, but it must be verifiably true. I think that's key. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive because one is contained in the other. The policy wants to make clear that the higher standard is our standard, because we want everyone reading the articles to be able to check the facts for themselves. Maybe the policy could be reformed to communicate that idea more explicitly. --causa sui 13:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Verifiability and truth aren't alternatives here. Truth (on WP) is established through verifiability. That could probably be expressed clearer in the policy. The phrase "verifiability, not truth" is certainly pretty unhelpful. Rd232 12:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Currently it says
The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.
Suggest
The standard for inclusion of information in Misplaced Pages is verifiability: information should not merely be true, but verifiably true, with reference to reliable external sources. Both readers and other editors need to be able to verify information in Misplaced Pages, and this can only be done when relevant sources are appropriately cited. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.
Rd232 14:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds great to me. --causa sui 15:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- lol .. I'll go along with that one Ryan! — Ched : ? 18:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- hey, I took a shot, revert at will ;) — Ched : ? 18:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
re: revert - np ... glad to see some work on this. — Ched : ? 19:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I like what Rd offers .. "make it so" if you please. ;) — Ched : ? 19:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Think before you act, please... which of the following verifiable statements is "true":
- Jesus was a wise man
- Jesus was the Masiah
- Jesus is the Son of God
- Jesus never actually existed
- Jesus was a Prophet
- Perhaps now you can understand why we include the language we do?Blueboar (talk) 20:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It has only now dawned on me that the "verifiability" requirement is profoundly anti-scientific. The scientific method seeks assertions (hypotheses) which are falsifiable, but have never been falsified. If you can't test the hypothesis with an experiment, you can't falsify it. It is then not science, but faith. Nothing is ever verified by scientific experiment, only falsified. The weight of many experiments that do not falsify a proposition collectively support it, but one experiment is all it takes to falsify it. LeadSongDog come howl 20:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think LeadSongDog is mixing up scientific research with reporting of science, which is what WP does. In reasearch a hypothesis can only be falsified, as LeadSongDog said. However a WP science article reports "A wrote that X" or " X", which are verifiable from published documents. Even if WP simply says "X", "The current scientific consensus is ..." is implied by WPNOR and WP:NPOV. --Philcha (talk)
- I really have no idea what this Jesus example is supposed to demonstrate. None of these claims is verifiable (and probably they are all also false, by the way). Anyway, LeadSongDog (talk · contribs) is definitely confused about what we are doing here. This is not scientific method because Misplaced Pages is not a project of discovery. It is a tool for reporting information. In that way we rely on verifiable truth such as "XYZ study found a correlation between A and B and researcher Dr. Q concluded that there is a causal relationship..." and so on. --causa sui 20:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- That rather clarifies my point. If we only reported explicit consensus positions we would miss most content. Far more often, scientific consensus is established by the simple lack of contradiction. When a published result stands unchallenged for several publication cycles it begins to acquire weight. It is rare for someone to publish a verifiable paper stating that "Dr. Q's conclusion has not been challenged after five years", and WP:NOR would prevent WP editors from making that statement. So the consensus around Dr. Q's conculusion would, to a WP reader, appear simply as one researcher's conclusion.LeadSongDog come howl 06:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Blueboar, I am really sorry , but I'm going to have to fall squarely in the Ryan camp here. Word one, Statement one .. Jesus... While I do firmly believe in my heart certain things as a Christian (WP:OR, from an encyclopedic point of view: there are no WP:RS which can verify word one. Hence, all proceeding comments fall into the null and void category. As far as the "scientific vs. other" points of view, those would be best taken up at the respective talk pages of the articles in question. Just IMHO — Ched : ? 21:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- My point was this: for each of the above statements, there are people who believe that the statement is "True" (and, conversely, that the others are "false"). "Truth" is far to often a subjective concept. People can disagree over whether something is "true". We can not verify a statement such as: "Jesus is the Son of God"... even though millions of Christians around the world will tell you that the statement is "True". The language "Verifiability not Truth" makes it clear that we don't care about true or false... what we care about is verification. Blueboar (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think you're confusing verifiability with NPOV. Verifiability applies to things which can reasonably be verified. Transcendental and religious truths do not fall into that category - so we don't try to verify their truth, we only try to verify who thinks what about these things, and keep a neutral point of view about whether it's true. Anyway, I don't see really what you're saying in respect of my proposal - is my proposal less clear on this to you? Rd232 22:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- My point was this: for each of the above statements, there are people who believe that the statement is "True" (and, conversely, that the others are "false"). "Truth" is far to often a subjective concept. People can disagree over whether something is "true". We can not verify a statement such as: "Jesus is the Son of God"... even though millions of Christians around the world will tell you that the statement is "True". The language "Verifiability not Truth" makes it clear that we don't care about true or false... what we care about is verification. Blueboar (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Blueboar, I am really sorry , but I'm going to have to fall squarely in the Ryan camp here. Word one, Statement one .. Jesus... While I do firmly believe in my heart certain things as a Christian (WP:OR, from an encyclopedic point of view: there are no WP:RS which can verify word one. Hence, all proceeding comments fall into the null and void category. As far as the "scientific vs. other" points of view, those would be best taken up at the respective talk pages of the articles in question. Just IMHO — Ched : ? 21:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- My point exaclty... "Truth" is a matter for WP:NPOV... this policy should only deal with Verifiability... as in "The threshold for inclusion is Verifiability, not Truth." Blueboar (talk) 22:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of repeating myself... "I don't see really what you're saying in respect of my proposal - is my proposal less clear on this to you? " As far as I can see "information should not merely be true, but verifiably true" covers the same ground, just more clearly. (for one thing, "verifiability, not truth" risks implying we can verify things which aren't true - the policy clarifies this, but why obscure it in the first place with this problematic phrase?) Rd232 23:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Would it help any to substitute "accurate" for "true"? Rd232 23:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, accurate is a better word... we do strive for factual accuracy, and accuracy is not subjective the way "Truth" is. My main concern not to open even a hint that we base inclusion on whether something is "true" or not. Do that and we will quickly get people arguing over truth and falicy... when none of that matters to wikipedia. We can report on things we think are "false" (for example, we have an article on inteligent design, even though the consensus of just about every scientist is that it is a false, pseudo-sciencific theory). We don't care whether something is true or false... we care about Verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 00:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- It takes a pretty foolish reader to think that an encyclopedia endorses the subjects it describes. And your example about "having an article" is an issue of notability, not verifiability. Rd232 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I also think you're forgetting we have a whole policy page to explain exactly what's meant. The issue is only whether the intro can be made clearer. I think "verifiably true" is not problematic in the way you describe, because what exactly is "verifiability" verifying, if not truth? It's just unpacking the noun for clarification. Rd232 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of being overly philosophical about this: Something can be verifiable (according to our definition) and still be false. Our sources may not know it yet. For a historical example: consider Newton about relativistic behavior. The 1800 Misplaced Pages article on physics would be verifiable but "false." We are to report what "qualified" sources say is true, not what IS true. Hopefully there is high correlation between the two, but they are intersecting sets of "information," neither a subset of the other. Arguing for inclusion should be based on verifiability. (John User:Jwy talk) 00:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of pointing out the obvious, that's a problem with the policy, not the lead section under discussion. And since WP is a work in progress, when new evidence comes to light, previously presumed verification can be challenged. Rd232 10:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of being overly philosophical about this: Something can be verifiable (according to our definition) and still be false. Our sources may not know it yet. For a historical example: consider Newton about relativistic behavior. The 1800 Misplaced Pages article on physics would be verifiable but "false." We are to report what "qualified" sources say is true, not what IS true. Hopefully there is high correlation between the two, but they are intersecting sets of "information," neither a subset of the other. Arguing for inclusion should be based on verifiability. (John User:Jwy talk) 00:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I also think you're forgetting we have a whole policy page to explain exactly what's meant. The issue is only whether the intro can be made clearer. I think "verifiably true" is not problematic in the way you describe, because what exactly is "verifiability" verifying, if not truth? It's just unpacking the noun for clarification. Rd232 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- It takes a pretty foolish reader to think that an encyclopedia endorses the subjects it describes. And your example about "having an article" is an issue of notability, not verifiability. Rd232 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, accurate is a better word... we do strive for factual accuracy, and accuracy is not subjective the way "Truth" is. My main concern not to open even a hint that we base inclusion on whether something is "true" or not. Do that and we will quickly get people arguing over truth and falicy... when none of that matters to wikipedia. We can report on things we think are "false" (for example, we have an article on inteligent design, even though the consensus of just about every scientist is that it is a false, pseudo-sciencific theory). We don't care whether something is true or false... we care about Verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 00:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Would it help any to substitute "accurate" for "true"? Rd232 23:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of repeating myself... "I don't see really what you're saying in respect of my proposal - is my proposal less clear on this to you? " As far as I can see "information should not merely be true, but verifiably true" covers the same ground, just more clearly. (for one thing, "verifiability, not truth" risks implying we can verify things which aren't true - the policy clarifies this, but why obscure it in the first place with this problematic phrase?) Rd232 23:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Rather than getting bogged down in this semantic debate, can we get an up or down vote on rd232's proposal above? I think most of us are supporting the change. --causa sui 00:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
support — Ched : ? 01:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Strongest possible oppose -- who is going to test for truth? In how many subjects is this virtually impossible? What is the 'truth' in history, archaeology, even science? No scientific theory is 'true' for instance. Many historical claims can never be shown to be true. I've been looking at the battle of Mons Graupius, generally considered to have taken place as described but there is some current thinking that it was either trivial or didn't take place. What's 'true' here? This would be a fundamental change in policy and in the direction of Misplaced Pages. Last year I ran into a problem with an editor when I used a very good source that stated that the positions of the finger bones of corpses suggested violence -- I was told that the statement had to be verified to show it was true. As John says about, "arguing for inclusion should be based on verifiability". And wouldn't it mean that a lot of our articles could no longer show any disagreement between experts? Dougweller (talk) 07:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
oppose - and I say this as someone involved in articles where I often encounter information which is "verifiable" by WP standards, yet I know to be false. While I appreciate the reasoning behind the recommendation, such a change may make it MORE likely that verifiable but false information is disemminated as true - because contrary to the OP, people DO trust wikipedia. Heck, in another forum I've been getting text from Misplaced Pages quoted at me as evidence of something, and the irony is that (unbeknowns to them) I wrote that text, albeit poorly. This change says "if it's in Misplaced Pages, it must be true!". And we all know that isn't always the case. --Insider201283 (talk) 09:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Section break
Look, my clarifying rephrasing wasn't intended to be a change of meaning, as some suggest. Bottom line, we need to unpack slightly more what "verifiability" and "verifiable" means to provide understanding more easily to the passing reader / new editor.
- OED on verifiability: (a) "The fact of being verifiable." (b) "Philos. The fact of being capable of verification." The latter meaning is clarified by a quote: "1967 Encycl. Philos. VIII. 241/1 We shall understand the verifiability principle as claiming that the cognitive meaning..of a sentence is to be determined by reference to the verifiability..of the statement expressed by the sentence."
- OED on "verifiable": "That can be verified or proved to be true, authentic, accurate, or real; capable, admitting, or susceptible of verification."
- From current WP practice, I draw the conclusion that we are attempting to verify truth, in two senses. (a) For simple facts, we seek to support them with a reliable source in a way that implies we think it's true; and that's generally enough unless it's disputed, in which case some truth debate takes place, albeit displaced onto arguing about the reliability of competing sources. (b) For opinions or claims that can't reasonably be verified or where reliable sources disagree, we seek to support them by linking them to reliable sources in a way that makes it clear we're not judging whether it's true (WP:NPOV), eg by direct quotation and explicit attribution in the body text. The truth we seek to establish here is not the fact in the statements, but the fact of the statement (that it was actually made). Example a: X was born on such a date (footnote). Example b: X said that battle Y took place (footnote); Z said it didn't (footnote).
In conclusion, Dougweller asks, quite reasonably, "who is going to test for truth?" The answer is WP editors, collaboratively when and to the extent that they can. This is not in any way, shape or form a change to current practice, just a clarification of it. I don't see anything wrong with that practice, but those who do should really start by supporting clarification of it, as that will it make it easier to challenge. (However, conceptually and practically, and I don't see any realistic alternative.) Rd232 10:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, no... WP editors should never be in the position of "testing for truth". We look to reliable sources to do that... WP editors should mearly report what the sources say. Blueboar (talk) 13:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- If no source ever contradicted another on any topic, that would be a tenable position. If all sources were equally reliable, that would be a tenable position. If it wouldnt' make articles unreadable to explicitly attribute in the body text every single piece of information, that would be a tenable position. Rd232 13:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, no... WP editors should never be in the position of "testing for truth". We look to reliable sources to do that... WP editors should mearly report what the sources say. Blueboar (talk) 13:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Seriously, people think the sky is falling here and I'm not sure why. Nobody is altering the meaning of the policy or proposing that we change actual practice. I would like to know how it's possible for something to be verifiable but not true. Think about it carefully and you'll discover that it's impossible. --causa sui 12:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Verifiable" in WP nomenclature only means the info comes from a reliable source and that someone else can go to the source and verify that's what it says. It does not mean the source is correct! Take mass media for example - newspapers and magazines are generally considered WP:V, but I doubt anyone suggests they're always true! The problem with the proposed rewording is that it implies that if it's Misplaced Pages, it must be true. In reality, if it's in Misplaced Pages the best that can be concluded (and only in a well edited article!) is that it's based on reliable, verifiable sources. --Insider201283 (talk) 13:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ryan, the problem that I see is that the proposed changes do alter the meaning of the policy. By saying that something must be "verifiably true" to be included, you place this policy in direct conflict with WP:NPOV. It is not the job of Wikipedians to verify whether something is true or false... Our job is simpley to make sure that our readers can verify that someone ELSE (ie a reliable source) said something. That's it. In fact, according to WP:NPOV we have to include viewpoints that Wikipedians might think are not true. Very often, what we are verifying are opinions and not facts.
- As for verifying something that is not true... this is very simple... Take Newton's law of gravity as an obvious example. We can verify it, even though we now know that it has flaws (ie it is not true). Blueboar (talk) 13:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- You can't verify it because it's not true. What you can verify is that Newton said x, y, and z. That's what we do at wikipedia. We report what other people are saying. --causa sui 15:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Verifiable" in WP nomenclature only means the info comes from a reliable source and that someone else can go to the source and verify that's what it says. It does not mean the source is correct! Take mass media for example - newspapers and magazines are generally considered WP:V, but I doubt anyone suggests they're always true! The problem with the proposed rewording is that it implies that if it's Misplaced Pages, it must be true. In reality, if it's in Misplaced Pages the best that can be concluded (and only in a well edited article!) is that it's based on reliable, verifiable sources. --Insider201283 (talk) 13:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I seriously think people are taking issue here with the flaws inherent in the policy (Misplaced Pages:Verifiability). The lack of clarity of the present intro hides those flaws a bit, but (see my examples above) this doesn't affect current practice. Verifiability, in practice, means (a) X is true, according to these sources (referenced info) and (b) these contradictory sources say certain things (referenced, explicitly attributed info). Address this practice please, because that's what we've currently got! Rd232 13:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- No... it can be verifiable that: (c) X is false, according to these sources (citation) or (d) We don't know whether X is true or not (citation)? Verifiability simply means that we must point the reader to a reliable source that supports whatever we have written. Blueboar (talk) 14:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- (c) is a variation of my point (a): we are stating that it is true that "X is false", based on certain sources. (This isn't necessary that often, but there are cases - outdated scientific theories spring to mind.) (d) is a variation of my point (b). What exactly is your disagreement with me? Rd232 15:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Verifiability simply means that we must point the reader to a reliable source that supports whatever we have written. " - yes, and what we have written necessarily contains some kind of truth statement, even if it's only truth claims about the sources, remaining neutral on content. Refer back to the OED definitions above. Rd232 15:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- WP doesn't focus on truth, although clearly when we write, "A said X," we hope that A really did say X. Nevertheless, what we focus on is attribution, not the truth of X. It's unfortunate that the policy was called "verifiability" many years ago, which implies that we go out hunting for the truth. I've tried a few times to have the name changed to avoid that connotation e.g. with Misplaced Pages:Attribution, but with no success. Regardless of the name, all we do is look for reliable attribution. SlimVirgin 15:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- rd232 answered my question about who will test for truth by saying " The answer is WP editors, collaboratively when and to the extent that they can.". A number of our articles - good ones at least -- will say that there are these reliable sources that say X is the case, another set that says Y is the case, and another set that says we simply don't know. They hopefully do not suggest that any of the alternatives are the truth. In fact, when we see an editor with 'truth' in their name, alarm bells often go off. Now if all Rd232 means is 'truth claims about the sources', the word for that is probably 'accuracy', or something akin, and not 'truth'. Dougweller (talk) 15:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is, as I said above with my (a) (b) examples, that there are simple, uncontroversial things which we don't attribute in the text. For example type (a), we say X was born dd/mm/yyyy (footnote). To the average reader, that means we think it's true (the reason we think it's true being given in the footnote). For example type (b), yes, we can, do and should attribute sources explicitly. Overall, "accuracy" is probably closer to what's going on than "truth", but we're kidding ourselves if we deny how closely the two are related; it still leaves the same "hard" problem, which is that, at the end of the day, statements in the authorial voice of the encyclopedia are implicitly statements that are claimed to be true. When those statements explicitly attribute claims to sources, that's fine - the truth claims are about the sourcing. When the statements are backed by footnotes, it's a problem - the truth claim appears to be about the content. Rd232 15:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- rd232 answered my question about who will test for truth by saying " The answer is WP editors, collaboratively when and to the extent that they can.". A number of our articles - good ones at least -- will say that there are these reliable sources that say X is the case, another set that says Y is the case, and another set that says we simply don't know. They hopefully do not suggest that any of the alternatives are the truth. In fact, when we see an editor with 'truth' in their name, alarm bells often go off. Now if all Rd232 means is 'truth claims about the sources', the word for that is probably 'accuracy', or something akin, and not 'truth'. Dougweller (talk) 15:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- WP doesn't focus on truth, although clearly when we write, "A said X," we hope that A really did say X. Nevertheless, what we focus on is attribution, not the truth of X. It's unfortunate that the policy was called "verifiability" many years ago, which implies that we go out hunting for the truth. I've tried a few times to have the name changed to avoid that connotation e.g. with Misplaced Pages:Attribution, but with no success. Regardless of the name, all we do is look for reliable attribution. SlimVirgin 15:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Verifiability simply means that we must point the reader to a reliable source that supports whatever we have written. " - yes, and what we have written necessarily contains some kind of truth statement, even if it's only truth claims about the sources, remaining neutral on content. Refer back to the OED definitions above. Rd232 15:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- (c) is a variation of my point (a): we are stating that it is true that "X is false", based on certain sources. (This isn't necessary that often, but there are cases - outdated scientific theories spring to mind.) (d) is a variation of my point (b). What exactly is your disagreement with me? Rd232 15:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Section Break 2 - Truth
- Ah... I think I see where Rd232 is comming from (correct me if I am wrong)... Yes, Verification does mean demonstrating that "it is true that reliable source X says Y". However, what the "Verifiability not Truth" language is focused on is that when it comes to adding (or removing) information, Misplaced Pages does not really care whether Y is "True" or not. More importantly, the "Verifiablility not Truth" language is designed to make it clear to editors that they should not add something mearly because they think it is "True" ... they have to show that someone ELSE (a reliable source) thinks it is true. Blueboar (talk) 16:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've agreed with Blueboar throughout this conversation. Mishlai (talk) 10:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- That would be more helpful if I felt that Blueboar had addressed my arguments. We seem to be slightly talking past each other. We agree, obviously, that information shouldn't be added "just because an editor thinks it's true, even though there's no reliable source for it". The question basically is about what happens with statements supported by reliable sources (eg in footnotes) but stated as fact in the text (X is true), not as reported opinion (A says X is true). In the former case, which inevitably and probably inescapably is common, WP is saying, in effect, that X is verifiably true. (It's saying "it's true - we verified it from this source, and you can too.") In the latter, it's saying that "A says X is true" is verifiably true. (The fact of A saying X is true has also been verified from the source given.)
- Either way, when we say we are concerned with "verifiability", that cannot meaning anything other than that we are concerned with is information which is "verifiably true". All of the concerns above, for me, boil down to the accepted and fairly obvious WP practice that if in any particular instance we can't agree on saying "X is true" (as fact), then saying "A says X is true" (as reported claim) is intended to be neutral, and not a hidden claim that X is true (and it certainly doesn't require us to claim that X is true in order to say that "A says X is true"). The question is how to best reflect that practice in the lead, to people not already familiar with it, and "verifiability, not truth" doesn't fit the bill. "Truth through verification" is clumsy but would be closer. "verifiable information, not unverifiable truth" would be inelegant, but closer. Rd232 11:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've agreed with Blueboar throughout this conversation. Mishlai (talk) 10:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we are saying that "X is verifiably true"... we are simply saying that X is verifiable (even if we have not actually included a citation to a source that verifys it). I don't have to know the truth of information to add it. I have no idea whether it is "true" that someone was born on a particular date... all I know is that reliable sources tell me the person was born on that date. It is possible that every single reliable source gives the wrong date of birth... perhaps someone in the hospital where the person was born made a clerical error, and all the sources have repeated that error. The point is, we have no way of knowing the "Truth" of the matter. However, we do know what date is given in the sources, and because that date is verifiable that is the date we use on Misplaced Pages. Blueboar (talk) 13:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's remarkably close to sophistry. If you add someone's birthdate, based on a "reliable source", you are not doing so (and should not be doing so) if you think the information isn't accurate. Equally, if you add that Source X gives the birthdate as such-and-such, you are not doing so with no opinion as to whether Source X actually gives the birthdate as that. You are making truth claims in both cases, whether you like it or not, or realise it or not. You are saying "I think this is true, because these sources say so." Furthermore, to return to the OED definition above, to say that "X is verifiable" is to say that X is true. (The reliability of reliable sources themselves is a red herring in this discussion - we're relying upon them, so we hope they're accurate, but if we think they're not, then we don't think they're reliable sources, and that's a different topic.) Rd232 15:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- "We hope they're accurate"... exactly. We don't know they are. "Truth" implies definitiveness. Verifiability does not. Blueboar (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I actually agree that a lot of what I am saying is sophistry... but I use sophistry to counter your sophistry as to things being "verifiably true". This is the problem with using the word "Truth" at all... sophists have been arguing about the nature of "Truth" since at least Classical times.
- So, to cut the sophistry... What we mean when we say "The threshold for inclusion is Verifiability, not Truth" is simple... you can not add something simply because you believe it is true... you need to be able to cite it. You can sometimes get away with not actually including a citation (ie the information is not controvercial), but you must be able to cite it if needed. A correlary to the verifiability not truth statement is that you can not remove cited information because you believe that it is not the "Truth"... you can challenge it (for example, you can argue that the source is not reliable, or that the information is irrelevant to the topic, etc.), but you can not summarily remove it based purley on your belief as to what the "Truth" is. Misplaced Pages avoids arguments as to "Truth"... it focuses on citation... ie Verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 16:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- You're basically restating the policy, which we know we agree on. The question is why should the lede of the policy falsely and misleadingly oppose verifiability and truth? Question: what does "verifiable" mean? Rd232 16:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's just it... I don't think we do agree on the policy. You seem to want Truth to be part of the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, and I wish to keep it at Verifiability. "Verifiable" means that we are able to cite the information. No more, no less. It does not mean that the information we are citing is nescessarily "Truth". Also, I don't think the policy opposes Verifiability with Truth. They are related but distinct concepts. Blueboar (talk) 18:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Now we're definitely talking past each other. Again, I do not "want Truth to be part of the threshold for inclusion". Truth is infuckinescapably part of what Misplaced Pages is trying to communicate: it is trying to create a collection of information which its editors believe to be true, that belief being justified by certain cited sources. We do not create random collections of words like monkeys writing (possibly) Shakespeare; we do not create collections of deliberate untruths! Now please answer my question above: what does "verifiable" mean? Check back to the OED. Rd232 21:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- OED on "verifiable": "That can be verified or proved to be true, authentic, accurate, or real". Therefore, the statement "verifiability, not truth" makes no sense. Please, let's try and come up with something that does. Rd232 21:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that Rd232 is supporting existing policy. He/she is just trying to reword it so that the very jarring (to an outsider) "we don't care about truth, only verifiability" can be replaced with a phrase that both encapsulates current editing practice and also communicates to newbies and outsiders that we are actually trying to be accurate. I'm not ready to propose a change through, I'm way too tired to do it well. Semantics are tripping this conversation up, because "Truth" has become a bad word to wikipedia insiders. If the wording is changed it needs to be absolutely clear that we're not talking about a policy change. Mishlai (talk) 21:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I think "truth" has become a loaded word on WP in this area, implying that information should be included merely because an editor thinks (or "knows") it's true, and that information can't be included unless editors agree it's true; that sort of thing. Of course in practice now we instead rely on "reliable sources". The issue is therefore not "verifiability vs truth" but "reliably sourced vs not". We ought to be capable of making that clear... (perhaps we should merge WP:V and WP:RS...) but I'm tired as well. Anyone else want to chip in here? Rd232 21:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I have no idea what Rd232 is saying. All I can say is that truth = accuracy = facts = everything that is the case. "Verifiability, not truth" means that we do not comment on the truth/accuracy/factual nature of the content. All we do is guarantee that, if we say A said X, A did say X and we provide a citation so that anyone can check it. This is what we mean by "verifiability." In addition, we try to make sure that A is not a kook or an entirely non-notable source, so that what A says is deemed to matter. That is what "verifiability, not truth" means. SlimVirgin 22:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well I'm starting to feel like a kook myself :) ... because we seem on the one hand to agree on the obvious (current practice, situation B: we rely on reliable sources and when there are competing sources we present them neutrally - WP:NPOV) and on the other hand to disagree on the obvious (current practice, situation A: we rely on reliable sources and when there is no disagreement, or only one source but no likely disagreement, we simply state the fact). More generally, we're not creating a random collection of words, we're bringing together information which we believe is accurate, whether that information is "X is true" (situation A) or "A says X" (situation B). If we really thought our better articles had no more truth value than a random collection of words, why would we be bothering? The answer, of course, is that we don't think that. We think good articles have value because they have valuable information; and that information is only valuable when it is accurate/true (even it is accurate in reporting, say, a lie, which is to say a claim shown to be untrue). It is, of course, accurate/true to the best of our knowledge, as demonstrated by the verifiable reliable sources given. Rd232 23:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I have no idea what Rd232 is saying. All I can say is that truth = accuracy = facts = everything that is the case. "Verifiability, not truth" means that we do not comment on the truth/accuracy/factual nature of the content. All we do is guarantee that, if we say A said X, A did say X and we provide a citation so that anyone can check it. This is what we mean by "verifiability." In addition, we try to make sure that A is not a kook or an entirely non-notable source, so that what A says is deemed to matter. That is what "verifiability, not truth" means. SlimVirgin 22:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I think "truth" has become a loaded word on WP in this area, implying that information should be included merely because an editor thinks (or "knows") it's true, and that information can't be included unless editors agree it's true; that sort of thing. Of course in practice now we instead rely on "reliable sources". The issue is therefore not "verifiability vs truth" but "reliably sourced vs not". We ought to be capable of making that clear... (perhaps we should merge WP:V and WP:RS...) but I'm tired as well. Anyone else want to chip in here? Rd232 21:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Now we're definitely talking past each other. Again, I do not "want Truth to be part of the threshold for inclusion". Truth is infuckinescapably part of what Misplaced Pages is trying to communicate: it is trying to create a collection of information which its editors believe to be true, that belief being justified by certain cited sources. We do not create random collections of words like monkeys writing (possibly) Shakespeare; we do not create collections of deliberate untruths! Now please answer my question above: what does "verifiable" mean? Check back to the OED. Rd232 21:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's remarkably close to sophistry. If you add someone's birthdate, based on a "reliable source", you are not doing so (and should not be doing so) if you think the information isn't accurate. Equally, if you add that Source X gives the birthdate as such-and-such, you are not doing so with no opinion as to whether Source X actually gives the birthdate as that. You are making truth claims in both cases, whether you like it or not, or realise it or not. You are saying "I think this is true, because these sources say so." Furthermore, to return to the OED definition above, to say that "X is verifiable" is to say that X is true. (The reliability of reliable sources themselves is a red herring in this discussion - we're relying upon them, so we hope they're accurate, but if we think they're not, then we don't think they're reliable sources, and that's a different topic.) Rd232 15:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ah... I think I see where Rd232 is comming from (correct me if I am wrong)... Yes, Verification does mean demonstrating that "it is true that reliable source X says Y". However, what the "Verifiability not Truth" language is focused on is that when it comes to adding (or removing) information, Misplaced Pages does not really care whether Y is "True" or not. More importantly, the "Verifiablility not Truth" language is designed to make it clear to editors that they should not add something mearly because they think it is "True" ... they have to show that someone ELSE (a reliable source) thinks it is true. Blueboar (talk) 16:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Rd, if you want to revisit the idea of merging RS and V, I would strongly support it, because they both say the same thing i.e. it wouldn't be a merge so much as a redirect. RS was created as a fork of V, and it really should have been deleted at birth, but unfortunately lived to cause confusion. Part of what we did with WP:ATT was try to merge two, and also try to replace the idea of "verifiability" with "attribution."
- WP:ATT did become policy (ATT was a combination of V, NOR, and RS), and things were going really well -- I was even getting emails from people to say they understood the content policies for the first time. Then one day Jimbo saw it and strongly objected. We had to hold a WP-wide poll. We achieved a majority, but not the 75 percent needed for consensus, so we had to go back to having V, NOR, and RS as separate pages. I doubt we'll get consensus to merge V and NOR, but I do think RS should be redirected to V, given that they're identical. Or someone needs to write up RS as a page where different kinds of sourcing are discussed. SlimVirgin 22:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well I'm generally in favour of discussing possible merger of policy pages because in general policy spreads ad hoc like a weed, and it takes a special effort, occasionally, to cut it back to something more manageable (and understandable for newbies). Feel free to resurrect a proposal or create a new one or whatever. Rd232 23:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- cf my efforts to merge WP:3RR into WP:EDITWAR. (WT:3RR#RFC) Rd232 23:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well I'm generally in favour of discussing possible merger of policy pages because in general policy spreads ad hoc like a weed, and it takes a special effort, occasionally, to cut it back to something more manageable (and understandable for newbies). Feel free to resurrect a proposal or create a new one or whatever. Rd232 23:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- WP:ATT did become policy (ATT was a combination of V, NOR, and RS), and things were going really well -- I was even getting emails from people to say they understood the content policies for the first time. Then one day Jimbo saw it and strongly objected. We had to hold a WP-wide poll. We achieved a majority, but not the 75 percent needed for consensus, so we had to go back to having V, NOR, and RS as separate pages. I doubt we'll get consensus to merge V and NOR, but I do think RS should be redirected to V, given that they're identical. Or someone needs to write up RS as a page where different kinds of sourcing are discussed. SlimVirgin 22:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
(undent) I like the "attributable" notion. I'll need to read that more carefully later. Mishlai (talk) 23:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- mm. it suddenly seems to me that replacing "verifiable" with "attributable" might just solve all these issues. Rd232 23:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- The ATT page got messed around a bit. This might be a version you could take a look at. I may try to work on it on a user subpage and see if we can relaunch it. Donning my NBC suit as we speak. :-) SlimVirgin 00:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- The policies are pretty entrenched as they are and people fear change, so I'm pessimistic about the chances for a second try. But looking at this, I can't believe it wasn't adopted. I'd like to make some minor adjustments ("not merely whether it is true" etc) but even failing that I'd sign the petition for making this revision into policy exactly as it is. It's always good to reduce fragmentation of the policy and reduce the ruleset into a smaller, more parsimonious set of general principles. Please do keep me updated. --causa sui 01:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I will. I'm thinking I'll try to get the writing as tight as possible and then I can show you. It was policy for quite a few weeks. Then one day Jimbo was arguing with someone about NOR, so he went to the NOR page and found the redirect, and had a fit (even though he'd been told about it). He thought that NOR was being deprecated, though in fact all that had happened was it had become a section of ATT -- because the idea of needing a source for your edits covers NOR. So he said we needed to have a poll, which we did, and we got a majority, not counting neutrals (424/354/102), which I think was a lot of support considering Jimbo had come out against it. But, of course, we needed consensus, so the majority wasn't enough. Jimbo suggested setting up a working party after the poll to decide whether to adopt it, but by that point we were fed up with it. It left quite a lot of bitterness because people had put an enormous amount of work into it over several months, and some of the opposes clearly didn't realize what the vote was about (and that probably goes for some of the supports too) -- you just can't make policy at that wide a level. But that's Misplaced Pages. :-) SlimVirgin 02:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- It might help to give it a long breathing period as merely a summary of the relevant policies, and making the existing policies effectively daughter articles of it. Let people get used to that for a few months, hopefully gradually switching to using its shortcuts because it's more helpful; and then talk about merging (with redirects now possible to the appropriate section to keep previous shortcuts, it should be more palatable). Rd232 11:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I will. I'm thinking I'll try to get the writing as tight as possible and then I can show you. It was policy for quite a few weeks. Then one day Jimbo was arguing with someone about NOR, so he went to the NOR page and found the redirect, and had a fit (even though he'd been told about it). He thought that NOR was being deprecated, though in fact all that had happened was it had become a section of ATT -- because the idea of needing a source for your edits covers NOR. So he said we needed to have a poll, which we did, and we got a majority, not counting neutrals (424/354/102), which I think was a lot of support considering Jimbo had come out against it. But, of course, we needed consensus, so the majority wasn't enough. Jimbo suggested setting up a working party after the poll to decide whether to adopt it, but by that point we were fed up with it. It left quite a lot of bitterness because people had put an enormous amount of work into it over several months, and some of the opposes clearly didn't realize what the vote was about (and that probably goes for some of the supports too) -- you just can't make policy at that wide a level. But that's Misplaced Pages. :-) SlimVirgin 02:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Before you attempt to create "Summaries" of policy... you should know that we have tried the idea before and found it controvercial. When WP:ATT failed, it was left (at Jumbo's suggestion) as a "summery" for quite a while... and constantly attacked because "summary" was a concept that editors could not understand. Did it have weight in disputes? Was it policy or mearly a form of essay? No one seemed to know. Personally, I did not see any problem with having policy summaries, but others did and it was a constant bone of contention. Blueboar (talk) 15:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- The policies are pretty entrenched as they are and people fear change, so I'm pessimistic about the chances for a second try. But looking at this, I can't believe it wasn't adopted. I'd like to make some minor adjustments ("not merely whether it is true" etc) but even failing that I'd sign the petition for making this revision into policy exactly as it is. It's always good to reduce fragmentation of the policy and reduce the ruleset into a smaller, more parsimonious set of general principles. Please do keep me updated. --causa sui 01:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Questionable sources, their uses, and associated ambiguity
Hi all.
I've just been reviewing this page as I haven't been around in a while and I observed the following about questionable sources:
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions.
I'm presuming this means any source that isn't reliable, including my personal botch-job of a website which I might have uploaded just yesterday (hypothetical scenario of course!). We read onwards:
Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves.
Questionable sources can in principle be used in articles about themselves, yes. But this phrasing allows for questionable source usage in articles not about themselves. Which means my lovely well-meaning advocacy website just uploaded yesterday could be used as a source in another article, so long as the cited material:
1. is not unduly self-serving; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Therefore, a sentence or two like:
Some hardline animal rights protestors have opposed wind farms on moral grounds.<ref>Link to my brilliant advocacy webpage about animal rights</ref>
... would technically be fine in an article on Wind farms. I don't see anything clear in the above extracts which negates this sort of use of sources. To me, verification of the above example requires a reliable source which has made that observation, if it even is indeed noteworthy. The above wording ultimately allows for use of patently unreliably sourced material in articles so long at is presented in a way that does not contravene the mentioned caveats. I think this is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages policies on reliable citation and ensuring material is reliably verifiable.
Perhaps it's just the ambiguity of the wording which needs to be resolved? Or maybe there's a more substantive issue at hand here? ITAQALLAH 18:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- First, your personal botch-job website would not be a "questionable source"... it would be outright unreliable. This refers to sources where there is a question as to its reliability. And it reflects the fact that questionable sources are not limited purely to articles about themselves... at least not as far as verifiability is concerned. If an advocacy group has issued a statement as to its stance on Wind Farms, and it is judged important to mention this stance in the Wind farms article, we obviously would cite the groups website as a source for that stance. Now... it isn't always appropriate to mention what an advocacy group says... but that isn't a verifiability issue. The are lots of other policies (such as the UNDUE section of NPOV) that might impact whether we do mention what the advocacy group says. However, if we do mention it, then we do have to verify it.
- To take another example... It might be appropriate to quote something that Hitler wrote in Mein Kamph in a section of an article about Ethnic cleansing. We have to be able to cite to Mein Kamph if we discuss it. so, while Mein Kamph is clearly a questionable source, we are not limited to only citing it in the Mein Kamph article. Blueboar (talk) 19:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response, Blueboar.
- Re: your first point, there needs to be a distinction then between what is 'unreliable' and what is, if I understand your clarification correctly, 'less unreliable' (or questionable). This is however a distinction I am unfamiliar with, and I haven't found it in the respective guidelines. The pages on reliability distinguish between what is reliable and unreliable. Some sources will be more reliable than others, but the cut off point is mentioned in WP:RS. Where do all of the crankish websites, polemical tracts or conspiracy media fit between 'questionable' and flat out 'unreliable'? The truth is that they are all unreliable - even if of varying severity - and by very definition of the word should not be relied upon.
- There is a degree of arbitrainess when you say '... it is judged important to mention ...', '... isn't always appropriate to mention ...' - the notion of 'importance' and how such is judged is often subjective if sources are not used to determine this. If for example we find the grievances or views of the hardline protesters in the example above mentioned by a local paper, then we can say yes this is of significance and report what is written by the paper. If not, then its significance must rightly be called into question. To rephrase: if an appropriately reliable source hasn't mentioned it, on what basis does Misplaced Pages mention it?
- As for whether it's a verifiability issue, the notion of reliability underpins all of the core content policies and their prescriptions. I only raise it here because questionable source usage is mentioned here. Yes, UNDUE does discuss weighting and balance, but this is purely based upon opinion distribution and degree of mention across reliable sources. Unreliable sources are not taken into consideration when determining this.
- I think there some OR issues to contend with in your example, but presuming it is applicable for the sake of argument, then if it were to be cited it would need to occur along side a reliable source asserting its significance/relevance/contribution to the topic at hand. ITAQALLAH 20:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think it might help to unpack what we mean by 'reliable source', because there are two different concepts involved here. In general, WP:RS discusses reliability as if it were an attribute of sources - e.g. CNN is a reliable source, an anonymous blog is not. Even the policy name, 'reliable sources', ties in with this. We might also think of these as 'reputable sources', and it so happens that coverage by a reputable source doubles as a reasonable test for notability - if CNN's given it substantial coverage, it's probably important enough for a WP article.
- But when it comes down to detail, what WP:RS is really concerned with is reliability of a source in the specific context where it's used. While we'd accept a CNN cite as reliable on most topics, there might be specific scenarios where we'd reject it (e.g. it is contradicted by a later story, or the journalist who filed it is caught faking his own sources). Conversely, while we would not rely on Gene Ray to tell us the time of day, he's an excellent source when we're making statements about Gene Ray's own claims.
- IMHO, the scenarios you're discussing above are cases where the source is 'reliable' in a specific context but not in general - hence, while it would satisfy WP:RS as a citation for that specific claim, that isn't a good enough argument for notability. --GenericBob (talk) 01:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Bob is correct in saying that context is important. No source is 100% unreliable in every context... even the nuttiest of crank websites will be a reliable source for a statement as to what that crank website says. Granted, it is highly unlikely that there will ever be a situation where it would be appropriate to discuss what such a crank website says. But, if the editors at a particular article deem it appropriate, then they have to be able to cite the website to support the statement. Blueboar (talk) 04:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with GenericBob too. This issue isn't that your own crappy website about your opinion on a matter can't be used to state that "an activist" holds a view, it's that the view of a group so small that it can only be found at such a place is not generally notable enough for inclusion, and violates wp:undue. If the viewpoint is so small that it hasn't been commented on elsewhere, then why mention it in an encyclopedia? Such a practice would result in Misplaced Pages being used as a place for tiny, fringe views to find voice, and that is not Misplaced Pages's purpose.
- Bob is correct in saying that context is important. No source is 100% unreliable in every context... even the nuttiest of crank websites will be a reliable source for a statement as to what that crank website says. Granted, it is highly unlikely that there will ever be a situation where it would be appropriate to discuss what such a crank website says. But, if the editors at a particular article deem it appropriate, then they have to be able to cite the website to support the statement. Blueboar (talk) 04:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- On the other hand, the blog of a movie producer might be used to cite his opinion on a movie that he made in an article about that movie. Even if the producer himself were not notable generally, he could be considered notable in the context of the movie and his blog - otherwise unreliable - would be a usable source for citing his opinion. Does that help?
- Also, there's some wp:weasel going on in "Some ... activists" - when you go through the effort to answer the weasel-squashing questions - Who? How many? and so on, then suddenly "Bob Smith said on his website that he believes..." becomes very obviously not worthy of inclusion, because Bob is not notable. This might change if, for example, Bob has been arrested in a high-profile animal rights case that is mentioned in the article - now Bob's self-sourced view of the situation is possibly inclusion-worthy. Citing many individual non-notable websites and creating a chorus would be wp:or in most cases, and again if the viewpoint as a whole is notable then it will have been mentioned in a better source. Some discretion is required, but this is the general feel of it. Mishlai (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Help in defense of WP:V
I could use a little help convincing some of the regular motorcycle-enthusiast editors at lane splitting that the burden for finding sources that substantiate challenged material in an article falls fully on those adding and supporting that material, not on those challenging it. My exuberance in making this point has turned into an issue in and of itself, including two ANIs and now an RfC. I feel I've lost all credibility with them, no matter how persuasive my arguments may be. They're not persuasive to them, because they are mine. Or maybe they're not persuasive to anyone... you tell me...
The real issue ultimately centers on this edit which, among other things, added the following statement to the article intro: " is illegal in the US except in California". The sources indicate, directly and indirectly ("Lane Splitting" - Not referenced in Administrative Code or Statutes), that the legality of lane splitting is a gray area, at least in those states (like CA and MT) where lane splitting is not explicitly banned by statute.
But my argument is simply that the "is illegal in the US except in California" statement is not supported by any citation, much less one that is verifiable, reliable and authoritative, that I challenge its veracity, and, even if I'm wrong, the burden on them is to prove me wrong (by finding a source). The regulars there who disagree with me, primarily Dbratland 1, Tedder 2 and Biker Biker have argued, or at least implied through their edits, that it is the one challenging the material that has the burden, or at least a share of that burden, to find sources supporting their view.
I understand why someone might be reluctant to step into this quagmire, but I'm hoping that those of you who watch this page would have an inherent interest in conveying the importance of editors adhering to this policy page, and, in particular, the WP:BURDEN section:
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation
For those of you who look into it, I think it can only improve Misplaced Pages, and how much editors take WP:V as seriously as it needs to be taken. Thank you. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
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