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That {{user|A Nobody}} voluntarily stop treating Misplaced Pages as a ] where editors are either allies or foes and that he recognize that serious substantive criticism exists regarding his methods and behavior. Further, when a significant number of folk tell him that a certain behavior is problematic and he needs to change it, he needs to take that on board and ''actually change his behavior''. That {{user|A Nobody}} voluntarily stop treating Misplaced Pages as a ] where editors are either allies or foes and that he recognize that serious substantive criticism exists regarding his methods and behavior. Further, when a significant number of folk tell him that a certain behavior is problematic and he needs to change it, he needs to take that on board and ''actually change his behavior''.

=== Description ===

A Nobody has edited Misplaced Pages under a number of identities since October 2006. In that time, he has been caught abusively sockpuppeting on two occasions, misusing sources, being uncivil to other users, hounding other users, and harassing users by maintaining lists of edits for the purpose of exacting revenge at a later date, and using discussion forums to make disruptive points about his views on matters.

A Nobody, as {{user|Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles}}, began editing with a focus on voting keep in AfD in October 2006; blocked by Durova for 6 weeks (Attempted vote fixing at AfD, gross violations of ]). He has been intent on confounding the deletion process ever since. He has used three socks and some occasional IPs in the process. Durova blocked the first two socks in April 2007, and indefed LGRdC. She granted a Good Faith unblock in July 2007 and offered him mentorship. LGRdC resumed his focus on confounding AfD. The mentorship ended circa September 2008 after an abuse of the Right to Vanish, which involved a claim of real-world, off-wiki harassment. LGRdC soon unvanished as Elisabeth Rogan and IPs and was soon blocked; Rogan focused on AfDs. As a part of the RTV, the LGRdC account was renamed twice ({{user|B988a4299d07c0f61fbc8378965438f0}} and {{user|Renamed user 19}}) and was allowed to unvanish after a third rename to ]. A Nobody focuses on confounding AfD to this day.

<small>'''Note''' A Nobody changed his name due to claims of real world stalking and harassment. Though it is not our business to judge the veracity of those claims we believe that noting past behavior using the old username is both necessary for clarity and is minimally damaging to A Nobody, as the majority of the mentions are diffs to extant pages where his signature already exists. The page has been {{tl|NOINDEX}}'d and mentions have been kept to a minimum but I would urge folks to bring complaints about the name to the talk page rather than edit warring over them here.</small>


=== Evidence of disputed behavior === === Evidence of disputed behavior ===

Revision as of 02:13, 21 September 2009

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 06:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 02:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC).

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Over an extended period of time, A Nobody (talk · contribs) has disrupted a variety of areas of Misplaced Pages. Despite counseling from several users, he has failed to change his behavior or accept responsibility for his actions. Specific problems are outlined below, but A Nobody has edited tendentiously, adopted a battlefield mentality in deletion discussions, and hounded or harassed participants in those discussions and at AN/I.

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

That A Nobody (talk · contribs) voluntarily stop treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground where editors are either allies or foes and that he recognize that serious substantive criticism exists regarding his methods and behavior. Further, when a significant number of folk tell him that a certain behavior is problematic and he needs to change it, he needs to take that on board and actually change his behavior.

Evidence of disputed behavior

  • This statement from A Nobody, in reply to a post by Backslash Forwardslash, evinces at least half of the concerns; follow-up by Backslash Forwardslash.

Socking

Incivility and refusal to accept when he is called on his behaviour

A Nobody regularly removes warnings from his talk page without reply and often with misleading edit summaries.
  • removal of warnings from his talk page:
  • Childishly parroting comments of other users with the meaning deliberately inverted:

Lying

Disruption/Point

  • Newspeak
    Much of A-N's approach revolves around the destruction of words.
    Cruft
    His essay:
    Repetition leads to some believing it's an established unword:
    • I know we're not supposed to call things cruft, but in this case it's calling a spade a spade. Themfromspace — July 2009
    As a Speedy Keep rationale:
    • I am almost leaning towards a speedy keep here as anytime the nonsense non-word "cruft" is evoked, we pretty much have to keep by default. A Nobody — September 2009
    MfDs an essay:
    Notability
    Endless reliances on an essay, WP:AADD, to claim that:
    • "Non-notable is not a valid reason for deletion." , , , , , , ,
    • AfD/Pete White — August 2009 (Merge to List of secondary characters from The Venture Bros.)
      We do not delete something as "non-notable" and certainly not that which is verifiable through multiple reliable sources. A Nobody
      We certainly do delete things for not being notable. Also, regarding your link to the Google News search: Mere mention in passing does not confer notability. Which of those sources are critical commentary or analysis of the character sufficient to confer notability? (that the character exists is not at issue, that it is a notable character... is at issue) The article as it stands as of this edit is completely unreferenced and therefore does not support notability assertions. Lar
    • Leaning toward keep by default per "non-notable" not being a valid reason for deletion. A Nobody — September 2009
    pernom
    many, many, attempts to nullify the comments of others in AfD by citing WP:PERNOM; see CRUFT/JNN diffs, they're often used together. "The bifecta" — September 2008
    Unencyclopedic
    Attempts to unword it with a raw Google search and a comment that it's not in his spell checker.
    No disparagement of content
    Proposes that editors not be allowed to strongly criticize articles and advances theory that doing so amounts to insulting editors:
    WP:NOTINHERITED
    Notability is inherited; a long-standing argument to avoid.
    Proposed that the AC find that Notability is inherited to allow endless articles on fictional elements:

Disruption of AfD by merging during discussion or fait accompli

Taking a cue from
Much discussion at WT:AFD#Merging during live AfD. No consensus that this is acceptable
current threads on User talk:A Nobody @ #Mergers of current AfDs again, #AfDs and sourcing, and #Merging articles during AfDs (oldid: )
  • AfD/Jimmy Patterson — September 2009 (No consensus)
  • AfD/Manon Batiste — September 2009 (No consensus)
    During both of these discussions, merges were performed to other articles with the intent of pre-empting an outcome of delete. The talk pages were tagged with {{copied}} to assert that:
    • " must not be deleted so long as exists".
    This was taken further after it was pointed out that this was disruptive.
Much the same occurred during:

Disruption of AfD by referring to other possible subjects for an article at the same title

A Nobody has a habit of commenting at AfDs where an article looks likely to be deleted, and stating that because there is some other topic that could possibly exist at the same title, the existing article should not be deleted. In the past, he also did this late in deletion discussions and raised an immediate deletion review claiming that the scope of the AfD had been changed during the discussion, invalidating all previous !votes.

  • AfD/Vulcan Ventures
  • DRV:Commander Dante was listed for DRV. The article was originally about a Warhammer character, but because A-N had inserted one sentence about a real person who had gone by the name "Commander Dante", he felt the entire discussion should be overturned.

Assuming bad faith

A Nobody assumes bad faith of anyone who does not share his views; of anyone who would delete anything other than a hoax, libel, or a copyvio. His is a worldview of Inclusionists vs Deletionists and of an endless battle with his opponents.

Bad faith and specious arguments at AfD

There are many, many AfDs A Nobody has show bad faith in; #Incivility, above; the many characterizations of other editors as using "dishonest" arguments;

Bad faith at RfA

There are a great many cases where A Nobody/LGRDdC opposed RfA candidates on purely inclusionist/bad faith grounds. These generally take the form of opposing a candidate because he !voted to delete an article, often over a year previous to the nomination, and A Nobody disagreed with the !vote.

  • RfA/Foxy Loxy 3 — April 2009. RfA successful; User:fl.
    Opposes a candidate because he supported another RfA. Maligned candidate for a "weak judgment of character" and for "not persuaded by overwhelmingly convincing arguments" (A Nobody's arguments).
    see WT:RFA#A Nobody's oppose vote on Foxy Loxy's RFA.
  • RfA/Kww 2 — April 2009. RfA did not succeed.
    Opposes on ideological grounds pertaining to fictional characters and television episodes.
    Later adds question for candidate: Given your participation in the fiction related arbcom cases and threads, including the one in which you were nearly sanctioned, would you close AfDs for fictional characters and television episodes?
  • RfA/Thumperward 2 — March 2009. RfA did not succeed.
    Opposes, citing lists of AfDs up to a year old within 15 minutes of the RfA being posted, and before it had even been transcluded (#Keeping lists of "bad" acts).
  • Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Protonk — October 2008. RfA successful.
    Days after his 'unvanish' he's back to bad faith opposing opponents at RfA on ideological grounds re E&C.
    Asserts: His immediately jumping into AfDs is also somewhat unusual for a “new” user. — which LGRdC did quite early on.
  • Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Magioladitis 2 — October 2008. RfA successful.
    Seeks vow to never close discussions on television characters or episodes
  • RfA/Sgeureka — December 2008. RfA successful.
    Opposes as too biased with regards to content inclusion to trust with closing certain articles for deletion. Unless if the candidate pledges to not close any fiction related AfDs, which even I would do were I ever to run for adminship (really unlikely...), I cannot support.
  • RfA/Seraphim Whipp — March 2008. RfA successful; User:Seraphim.
    Opposed per weak arguments made in arbitration case (E&C 2), i.e. views not in accord with A Nobody's. Later acknowledged that his oppose was because of our disagreement over the value of episode and character articles. After much discussion of his oppose, he moved to weak oppose and later yet to neutral since she was nice to me and Seresin clarified.
  • RfA/Seresin — February 2008. RfA successful.
    Opposes per Not enough effort displayed to improve articles and too much effort to destroy them. Seems to make weak arguments in AfDs and in the Episode and Characters Case.
  • Two indications that non-support of his merge-during-AfD tactic will be a reason to oppose candidates at RfA (posts are to 'Positive' and 'Negatives' sections of his RfA Standards) — September 2009
  • RfA/Willking1979 2 — September 2009. RfA successful.
    Duly withdrew his support of a user at RFA because the candidate disagreed with A Nobody's policy proposal.

Harassment and Hounding

A Nobody staunchly defends editors with whom he agrees and relentlessly seeks sanctions and restrictions on editors who do not share his views or who are critical of him. He attempts to have policies and procedures changed or removed to support his positions. Anyone at RfA who has ever offended him, even by !voting to delete an article over a year ago, faces a withering barrage of opposition and attempts to elicit pledges to recuse from E&C/Fiction related administration activities such as AfD closes.

Keeping lists of "bad" acts

A Nobody seems to maintain extensive documentation of edits by his opponents which he employs regularly at RfA and AN/I.

Targeting critics for sanction
  • ANI; two attempts to sanction Jack Merridew — April 2009
    two long threads that proved unactionable and contain a large amount of muckraking by A Nobody in an effort to extend Jack Merridew's unban sanctions and/or re-ban him
  • ANI#Proposal: Community ban of Sceptre — April 2009
    Revenge proposal to ban someone who proposed banning him
  • Filing a retaliatory WQA here — June 2008
    He even had to clean up the copy/paste job later — the retaliation was just the same report with names reversed.
Trying to delete or remove policies, guidelines, and essays which he opposes

Sourcing

A Nobody advances poor, unreliable, synthesized, or spurious sources in support of keeping articles, or asserts that a list of hits in a search for a subject's name somehow proves that sources exist for the subject, rather than selecting and pointing out the actual reliable sources.

  • Warning by Kung Fu Man re AfDs and sourcing — September 2009
  • AfD/Pete White — August 2009
    A Nobody: A typical invocation of WP:GHITS as a reason to keep. The source he did add discusses the character in about half of a single sentence; hardly "Significant coverage": means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.
  • Salvation, Texas — July 2009
    Adds sources re different subjects to thwart deletion discussion; adds a third off-topic source.
  • Virginia Lewis (10th Kingdom) — April 2009
    Glues together two unrelated sentence fragments from a Google Books copy of a mini-series review to concoct: Ron Wertheimer describes Virginia as "that plucky waitress...on her way to self-confidence."
  • Hélène Deschamps Adams — September 2009
    Uses a video game review as a source for an article on a historical figure.
  • Regularly throws raw Google/Amazon searches into AfDs as 'evidence' of verifiabiliy and notability.
    , , , , ,

Relevant discussion board threads

Applicable policies and guidelines

  1. Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry
  2. Misplaced Pages:Civility
  3. Misplaced Pages:Etiquette
  4. Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing
  5. Misplaced Pages:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point
  6. Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith
  7. Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing
  8. Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system
  9. Misplaced Pages:Right to vanish
  10. Misplaced Pages:Harassment
  11. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability

Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute

  1. LGRdC's first warning re AfD — 6 November 2006:
    Your recent "votes" on articles for deletion are rather unproductive. Since AfDs are not votes, but rather discussions, your comments are adding very little. Comment on the articles and participate in these discussions rather than copy and pasting your viewpoints on the encyclopedia's status from AfD to AfD. User:Either way,
    endorsed:
    May I suggest that you please do not xerox your comments on the AfD discussions? You are not helping in the consensus building process. If you are willing to participate, then please analyse the articles and the reasons presented for deletion before stating your opinions. Otherwise your comments will just be deemed irrelevant. Thank you. User:Husond,
    reply:
    I stand by my comments and votes. I only posted the keeps on ones that I thought should be kept. I can't bring it to myself to vote negative, because I know someone must have spent time writing an article. LGRdC,
    a half-hour later, another warning (User:Simoes)
    LGRdC copy-pasted the prior reply
    Simoes:
    You seem to be doing the same thing to those who post on your talk page. This sort of behavior is not considered productive. Please stop now and reassess how you edit and deal with other editors.
    Sandstein calls POINT:
    Let me please echo what the people above have said and note that in my opinion, your behaviour violates WP:POINT. Inserting copy-pasted unspecific "keep" votes into every AfD in sight, even in cases where the article very obviously merits deletion, is disruptive and detrimental to consensus-building. If you disagree with the deletion policy, the way to go about this is not to disrupt the process. If you do not desist, an administrator may block you for disruption.
    reply:
    Okay, enough already. Y'all are starting to beat a dead horse on this one. Telling someone something once is usually sufficient. All of the specific articles, I though should be kept and not every single "keep" post of mine was identical. Sure, many were, but there was some variation and after the first message on my talk page, I made all new "keep" messages more precise. Beating the same point to death after the message has been received is well . . . LRGDC,
    Message has still not been received most of three years later.
  2. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/100 Japanese respected by the world — 12 July 2008, warning by Protonk
  3. User talk:A Nobody#Whither disengagement — 14 July 2008
    attempt to engage by Protonk
  4. User talk:A Nobody#AFD discussion — 21 July 2008, suggestion by Pagrashtak
  5. User talk:A Nobody#Please withdraw the Commander Dante DRV — Advice and request by Stifle, 15 August 2008
  6. User talk:A Nobody#AFD behavior — 26 August 2008, another suggestion from Pagrashtak
  7. User talk:A Nobody#Glad you're back — 5 September 2008
  8. Warned about his RfA comments by Stifle and Abd. No reply.
  9. Counseling and admonishment from DGG — 9 March 2009
  10. , , — 13 July 2009 — Advice from Kww re unacceptable edit summaries
  11. Advice from MBisanz — 16 August 2009
  12. Advice from Stifle re JNN — 19 September 2009
    Pointy response is to cite Stifle's essay in a manner at odds with its meaning.

Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute

  1. refusal to stop merging articles up for AfDs - 9 September 2009
  2. Refusal to accept responsibility — 16 August 2009
  3. Refusal to accept responsibility — April 2009
  4. User talk:John Vandenberg#distilled proposal — 3 August 2009
    A Nobody would not agree to John's proposals; sticking point was his desire to continue editing articles that were at AfD.
  5. oldid:User talk:SB Johnny#fyi re A Nobody Merridew, SB_Johnny (archived wo/reply: here)
    A Nobody declined mediation by SB Johnny after the two inconclusive AN/I threads re Jack Merridew-A Nobody
  6. User talk:A Nobody#The world of Warhammer: The offical encyclopedia — 12 July 2008
    Refusal to accept an RFC; What will be funny is if people are foolish enough to start and RfC that I will never read or abide by, because all the time they waste there will be time not spent trying to delete other people's work.
  7. The disputed behavior continues daily, as evidenced by the above.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

  1. MBisanz 06:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. ++Lar: t/c 06:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. Protonk (talk) 06:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. Stifle (talk) 11:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  5.  pablohablo. 12:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  6. Certifying with caveats regarding 2006-2008 events, particularly regarding the opening request's use of the term "harassment". I fully trust that A Nobody was the target of grave offsite harassment; it conflates a serious matter to use the same terminology later in the same statement regarding onsite actions which (although annoying) were comparatively trivial. That said, his decision to start an undisclosed new account after vanishing for privacy reasons was not good judgment and distant observers could mistake that for a cynical attempt to game the system. Durova 15:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

  1. Ryan4314 (talk) 10:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. ...With some minor exception about the phrasing of talk-page warning removal. The misleading edit summaries in removal strike me more as a posturing defense mechanism from an editor who doesn't take criticism well. What's important is that he saw the warnings (which he's welcome to remove however and whenever he wants) but hasn't particularly heeded them. --EEMIV (talk) 14:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. Indeed. AN is known for disruption at AfD, and has been under all his usernames, while carefully denying same. RTV is not the right to kill a username and come back under another. As I have said to him before, he needs to go away. That's what RTV means. → ROUX ₪ 15:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. I had known of A Nobody before and knew him to be very pedantic with regards to AfD related opposes on RfA's, but I had never realized some of his actions have been more of a concern than a simple annoyance. Master&Expert (Talk) 20:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  5. A tendentious editor, without a doubt. His intransigence at AfDs and battlefield mentality actively hurt the project. AniMate 01:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

Outside view by Ryan4314

  • Check out how many times he starts an ANI thread, instigating some kind of drama/complaint about another user.
  • He ends his posts with provocative language (sincerely, regards, happy editing!) when debating with "bitter opponents", aiming to infuriate them whilst hiding under the veil of civility (I'm sure he'll claim ignorance of this), he has been advised about this.
  • Does plan to become an admin, despite what he might say.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Ryan4314 (talk) 10:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Endorse. The Sincerely/happy editing etc. is part of his sig, I think. Stifle (talk) 11:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. Endorse. The faux-civil sign-off is anything but sincere.  pablohablo. 12:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. Endorse. A Nobody has the surface politeness, it's true, but fundamentally what the huge list of issues above shows is a basic inability, or unwillingness, to work with others, to cooperate, compromise, take feedback on board, in short, to edit collegially. ++Lar: t/c 13:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  5. Per Lar. → ROUX ₪ 15:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  6. I endorse the first bullet, insofar as it a symptomatic of a tendency to request/demand changes in others without acknowledging or acting upon suggests in kind to him. Language like, "A Nobody, you're as much a part of the problem as X" has become more prominent. As for the other two: I think he intends for his template sign-off to be sincere, or at least hopes it will be. It might come off as smug, but I don't think it's a particularly big deal. As for the admin. support list, *shrug*, lots of people say they don't want to be admins but really do. Not a distinct problem for this user. If he's nominated for admin. status, we can address that then; it seems a tangential point now. --EEMIV (talk) 20:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by Kww

I primarily endorse the above description. I have one objection: the desired outcome is inappropriate. A Nobody has abused the right to vanish, based on what appears to be just another example of the kind of drama that surrounds this editor: he claims that there is some outside risk to his safety, but he continues to edit despite his relationship to the old account being common knowledge. AGF goes only so far: if there was any credible risk, he would not be editing so prolifically in precisely the same manner he was prior to his faux vanishment.

The RTV specifically precludes returning. He came back through sock-puppeting, and then made the pledge to avoid areas he had previously had conflicts in. To me, this is a simple case: he is here under sufferance of the editing community. He was deceptive when he left, he was deceptive when he returned, he uses deceptive edit summaries and arguments. I'll assume good faith, though: if his safety is truly at risk, he should leave Misplaced Pages voluntarily. Should he fail to do so, the community should recognize that he has failed to live up to all previous agreements and that he does not have the apparent capability to do so. For his own safety, should he return after agreeing one more time to leave, the community's reaction should be to ban him.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. —Kww(talk) 12:25, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Majorly talk 14:25, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. I endorse not because of A Nobody's tendentious actions with regard to his inclusionist bias (nothing wrong with that viewpoint, either) but because they are acting contrary to the major policies regarding consensual editing and assuming good faith. They evidence no desire to act differently. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. In spades. He lied in order to come back. That's not acceptable. → ROUX ₪ 15:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  5. Joe Chill (talk) 17:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  6. I agree. Reluctantly, though. Master&Expert (Talk) 20:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  7. Ironholds (talk) 22:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by Fences and windows

As is attested to by my comments included in the evidence above, I find A Nobody's editing enormously frustrating. As an out-and-out inclusionist they often argue to keep articles to the bitter end and against what I consider to be common sense. A Nobody's editing as part of the Article Rescue Squadron is one of the reasons I have left the ARS; I consider the rescue tag and project to be discredited and I no longer wish to be associated with it. I find their attempts to force keeping of articles using merges during AfD to be disruptive and potentially underhand, e.g. , and I wish they would stop. AfD shouldn't be a battleground; A Nobody is one of the editors who moves it in that direction.

This said, A Nobody and other inclusionists serve as a counter-balance to the strident deletionists who dominate AfD. A Nobody's crusade against weak and parroted arguments for deletion may be repetitive but it is also largely correct. I grow tired of seeing "NN" without explanation or qualification, particularly when it has been demonstrated that reliable sources have indeed covered the topic or when an acceptable merge target has been identified. "Per nom" is extremely weak as it treats AfD as a vote. "Cruft" is indeed a word, but it is pejorative and arguably uncivil; a perfectly acceptable alternative exists, namely "unnecessary detail". Raising WP:BEFORE is very valid; some deletion nominators and !voters appear unable - surely not unwilling? - to find reliable sources that others can find with ease. Some of those !voting for deletion must learn to frame their arguments better, although badgering from A Nobody is more likely to further entrench them than persuade them of the error of their ways.

Criticisms of A Nobody's use of old diffs to discredit an editor seem misplaced, especially as this RfC is constructed out of some very old diffs. We all have memories and Misplaced Pages archives almost everything, so if editors like DoctorFluffy don't want old comments used against them they shouldn't make those kinds of comments. An uncompromising statement of intent to delete as many articles as possible deserves criticism. Any editor is entitled to criticise the statements and conduct of other editors, so long as they stay on the right side of WP:CIVIL and WP:HOUND.

I have no experience of or comment on A Nobody's editing while under previous usernames. Fences&Windows 14:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. This won't make me popular, but I have to agree. I have long thought that the major source of frustration with A Nobody has been his passionate and persistent inclusionism. He's made serious mistakes, with his handling of the RtV and his use of sockpuppets chief among them, but according to the evidence above those mistakes remain long in the past. Not all of his actions are well thought out; the merges during a discussion, and particularly use of the {{copied}} template, are worrisome and A Nobody should take the criticism on board and leave these activities behind. On the other hand, we should not even entertain the possibility of banning someone for making arguments against deletion (the core of the extensive evidence above); not all of these arguments are equally well thought out, but many times I've seen him produce sources that sway the debate. And the rest of the time, when his keep rationales have little merit, he can be safely ignored. Nathan 15:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Dont totally share this view, but have to fully respect it. Was just comming to your talk page Fences to say I was sorry to see you leave the ARS, when i saw the link to this RFC. Your post here confirms you're worthy to bear the name of one of the inspirational Naomi Kleins works! FeydHuxtable (talk) 22:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. I've tried to work with him for some time, and In my opinion, he has been improving. His problematic editing is entirely or almost entirely on the general topic of popular culture, an area where there has been concentrated and repeated attacks from a few editors. But I have beenoften unable to persuade him that some articles are hopeless, that excess is best met by taking a strong but not extreme position, and the trying to have the last word is counterproductive. The situation can be best met by dealing with the disruption caused by the extreme fiction minimalists, which will help encourage more reasonable editors to join the discussions, and perhaps induce A nobody to work in the other areas where he has strong academic competence. DGG ( talk ) 00:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by Nathan

Following up on my post above:

  1. I agree with the desired outcome of this RfC, insofar as it relates to criticism of A Nobody's style of arguing with people at AfD (commenting on his perception of their expertise or his other views on their participation and its value, etc.) and his behavior with respect to merges and the copied template. I think he should accept criticism of that behavior as valid, and reform.
  2. I believe that his persistence in arguing keep at nearly every opportunity, and particularly his habit of opposing people at RfA for their comments at AfD, is the core source of the frustration that many people in the community have with A Nobody. Having unpopular opinions and sticking to them is not something we ought to sanction people for here.
  3. It's my view that the construction of the wall of evidence above is intended to do more than ensure the adoption of the desired outcome; very little of the activity from years ago in any way relates to the current stated concern, and a pattern of behavior related to socking or RtV isn't even asserted let alone evidenced. Take the initial statement and remove the bits about RtV, socking, RfA comments, using Google hits (etc.) in arguments, and anything else extraneous to what I see as the real problem (habit of criticising people directly, disruptive effect of merges, appearance of trying to game the process by way of a template) -- that would be something I could endorse, and it might even have a chance at convincing A Nobody to make substantial changes in his approach to Misplaced Pages.
  4. If someone posts a new version of the initial statement, focusing more specifically on recent objectionable conduct, then please let me know and I will come back here to endorse it. Nathan 16:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Apparently I should endorse my own view! I'll take this space to note that I don't consider myself an inclusionist, and if anything I vote to delete far more often than keep. I don't think anyone is trying to run A Nobody out in order to shore up the power of the deletionist cabal. I have nothing but complete respect for Protonk, Lar and MBisanz. I agree that the recent behavior noted should be addressed. I don't think, though, that including the history of other problematic conduct (which has not continued, and does not contribute to a pattern in my opinion) was necessary or helpful, particularly if the idea here is to get A Nobody to voluntarily reform. Nathan 18:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Endorse point 1. As far as the rest goes, the socking and RtV stuff is not evidenced because the main concern is the user's conduct; then and now.  pablohablo. 20:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. Endorse point 2 & 3. FeydHuxtable (talk) 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. Endorse generally. The discussion of the earlier material is not relevant here--these aspects of his behavior were in the past. There's no point in having an RfC to deal with the user's former behavior--how can that possibly be reformed? We need to deal with present behavior. I hope the material was introduced here from general frustration, not with the intend of overbalancing and prejudicing discussion. DGG ( talk ) 00:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Note: this view has comments

Less an outside view than a followup to the RfC

I suspect that this RfC will generate three core criticisms and I would like to address them here before they crop up. First, it is inevitable that this RfC will be treated as a means to silence an inclusionist viewpoint rather than criticise conduct. Second, that this RfC represents old grudges or bad faith disputes. Third, that A Nobody has changed enough to obviate an RfC. I'll address these in turn.

  1. It cannot be denied that a number of people certifying this RfC could be labeled as 'deletionists' or certainly less inclusionist than A-N. However it does not follow that because we happen to disagree on content that all criticism is based in or motivated by that disagreement. This accusation occurs (I think) partially for tactical reasons--it is much easier to "ink the water" with Notability concerns then it is to actually defend unpleasant conduct. It also occurs because we are locked in a battleground mentality where any ground lost or gained has a result in article content. All I can say to this is that I have tried assiduously to steer this RfC away from inclusion/deletion and toward conduct. I hope to have written in to attract some views from across this spectrum about the underlying conduct--conduct which has basically been a part of this user's behavior for the better part of four years. If, at the end of this we can only say "look how the deletionists scheme" then we have failed as a community. We will have become unable to accept problems within our particular tribes. I will note that A Nobody and other inclusionists are willing to push for a topic ban on the other side, so it certainly can't be the case that they feel topic bans are beyond the pale.
  2. Some of the material presented in this RfC is old. We (that is, me and Lar and Matt) have attempted to show a pattern of behavior without misrepresenting the weight of past evidence--hence why most (if not all) diffs and threads include a date in plaintext. We want to show that the same sort of attacks and misrepresentation have been going on over the course of his career. There is suffcient recent evidence to justify signficant concern. Also note that we are unable to provide a complete reckoning of behavior for reasons of space. As it stands the dispute statement is 72kb long. In order to present a legible case we have to summarize, parse and omit.
  3. A Nobody has improved in my opinion. Among folks certifying this RfC or endorsing its merits I may be alone in thinking that he has improved. However, the improvement has been marginal and he has largely relapsed to 'pre-vanished' behaviors. Right before A-N vanished I wrote up an RfC about his conduct (Merger during AfD, attacks on other editors, retaliatory reports, etc.). Once he vanished I refused to certify it as it would have seemed ghoulish to do so in absentia while he was facing off-site harassment. When he returned I was tempted to do so again but I honestly thought he got better. He commented less in AfD. When he did he made clear and cogent arguments using sources. He moved toward rapprochement with some editors and generally softened his stance. Over time he returned to form. He went back to hassling editors over "JNN" (even when explicitly told that those editors wanted nothing to do with him and didn't want him replying), he went back to merging during AfDs, renaming articles under AfD, accusing opponents of bad faith, etc. I would like to think that some of the strong criticism from the community in summer of last year caused him to rethink his approach. In that case, the RfC isn't superfluous, it is necessary. It is part of community feedback in an environment where he cannot arbitrarily remove negative feedback.

Having said all that I still expect a response along those lines. I'm willing to discuss those criticisms and accusations on the talk page and I'm willing to move through a consensus process to have an agreeable outcome to this RfC. Thanks. Protonk (talk) 18:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Protonk (talk) 18:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Stifle (talk) 18:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. The length of this RfC/U is what it is because there is a serious pattern here, it goes back a ways in time, and it was needful to show the pattern and that it's still ongoing. For the record, I consider myself an inclusionist, just as I was when I first contributed here, although I think I've learned a fair bit about policy and how to be an effective contributor since then. Fundamentally, this RfC is about getting A Nobody to realize there is a serious problem with his behavior, to commit to change it, and then to actually change. (or, failing that, to realize that it's time for the community and A Nobody to part ways, but that is never my desired outcome, never) Rescuing articles is commendable work, and I'm all for it, as long it's done in a way that's not disruptive. Adding bogus sources, carrying out merges during the middle of the AFD, making spurious arguments, attacking other editors, and other disruptive tactics just are not acceptable. ++Lar: t/c 19:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. In endorsing this comment, I am also responding to Nathans comment above regarding the historical matters being brought up in this RfC; I do not see the historical evidence produced as anything other than examples of how A Nobody has exhibited the same issues as are being complained of him presently. The current problematic editing of A Nobody is systematic of their apparent inability to learn from previous instances of their being taken to account for same issues, and the lack of any apparent desire to do so. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  5. Parrotting comments above: old diffs are here as points of comparison. A Nobody, comfortable and welcomed back by the community, has reverted to his pre-RTV behavior. Frankly, if this RFC had been initiated a few months ago, I probably wouldn't have signed on, because it seemed A Nobody had focused his energies in a series of wikiprojects with which I'm not especially involved, and had reduced his participation in AfD. However, running across him more often now, I'm spotting many of the same problem behaviors from before. Were the old diffs sitting in isolation, this would be a spurious RFC; however, compared with more recent behavior, they instead offer a point of comparison. --EEMIV (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  6.   pablohablo. 20:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  7. AniMate 01:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by EEMIV

First, I'm not sure how "outside" this is, in that I've had direct confrontations with A Nobody about most of these issues; I'm "outside" only insofar as I'm not one of the initiators of this RfC. Anyhow:

Hounding
  • Imperial Andermani Navy and Astromech droid - No follow-up edits to improve either article or discussion at AfD. And, frankly, considering of alllll the fiction/arts AfDs going on when he added these two, and considering neither of these was listed at the fiction-related AfDs page, I kind of get the impression he was "hounding" me/other editors who clearly disagree with him who put things up for deletion with the ARS spam.
AfD badgering (+ requests to halt it, i.e. non-response)
  • One and ] requests from three editors for A Nobody to stop "badgering" dissenting voices at an AfD. Varies between tone of "I'm doing what other people doing; if you didn't warn them, too, then you're just attacking me" and "I'm challenging other people; we're here to engage each other" - doesn't acknowledge numerous previous requests (mostly under old user name) not to respond to all/many dissenters at AfD. Was second only to nominator in number of edits to AfD discussion.
  • - quite a while later, again with the badgering of delete !voters, the most edits to the discussion.
  • - Unnecessary boilerplate "JNN not a reason to delete" of TTN, to whom he's offered up such insight many times before
  • - He's badgered numerous responders, but this particular diff illustrates part of one of his frustrating tactics: the assertion that a differing opinion is dishonest, and I think a core problem with this editor.
"Contingent" acquiesence to simple warnings and requests, and other straw men

A Nobody has a tendency to deflect criticisms and requests with responses such as, "I'll do this only if you request someone else do it, too." For example:

Attacks on editors
  • Attributes a quote ("never") that doesn't appear in the cited diff. Also offers an inaccurate (or, at least, incomplete) paraphrase of the editor's intent/idea.
  • The above diff plus this one shows A Nobody criticizing an editor (based on previous contributions/articulation of beliefs) rather than on relevant topic at hand (in this case, whether WP:ARS should be archived/deleted).

All of this said, though, it's important also to recognize that for all the frustrations, A Nobody really has done some admirable work salvaging articles up for AfD that, after his contributions make clear, really shouldn't be deleted. He's also remarkably cordial to the vast majority of users. I'll also add that recently, he has shown a willingness to disengage with an editor with whom he often conflicts.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. --EEMIV (talk) 18:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Not sure I'm on board with the characterisation of the ARS activity, but otherwise I agree with this. Nathan 19:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. Agree w/ the summary at the end as well, in connection to my third point above (and my first, somewhat). Protonk (talk) 19:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  4. Stifle (talk) 19:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by User:Ikip


Outside view by MichaelQSchmidt

It was missed being mentioned up above that when he was a child he spent months dirtying his diapers, often spit up his food, and when 4 he pulled someone's hair (sorry.. a bit or irony). Point here being that I find the dredging up up conversations and behaviors from over a year ago to be a bit of a distraction. We are being offered some negative diffs from over a 3-year period without without inclusion of the positive ones. So lets look at recent history and not that of the distant past. In considering the proffered diffs from the past few months, and not using ancient history to modify current perceptions, it can be seen that:

  • Yes, A Nobody is seen as far too tenacious in his work to save articles.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to be very focused in his efforts to preserve.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to have too narrow a focus in an encyclopedia with over 3 million artilces.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to sometimes ruffle the feathers of other editors in his dedication to improving the project.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to show impatience with others when he feels (rightly or wrongly) that he is being mocked.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to often write lengthy TLDR tomes in responses when a few short sentences might do.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to be persistant at AfDs in attempts to elicit actual involvement in discussions from editors who are not otherwise inclined to expand their own terse or per-nom comments.
  • Yes, A Nobody is seen to himself be quick to respond in kind when he feels others have belittled him or his efforts.
  • Yes, it is seen that certain other editors have themselves been incivil to A Nobody, and he does not well tolerate perceived rudeness.
  • Yes, it is see that A Nobody and certain editors seem to push each other's buttons... repeatedly.
  • Yes, many of the diffs provided above (and no, not all), are from editors with whom A Nobody had had disagreements, and with respects, many of those editors are themselves not perfect angels.

My conclusions.... It can be seen from A Nobody's edit history that he has indeed made some quite valuable contributions to the expansion and improvement to the project with over 44 thousand live edits... over 12 thousand of them in article space alone. Though it can be seen that A Nobody is himself occasionally frustrated by others, it is also seen that it takes two to tango... so it would seen that ALL involved be cautioned toward more civility and patience, as there is plenty of blame to go around. A Nobody has created far more good will among editors than bad. He has been far more encouraging and helpful to others than he has not. The simple question is, has the project been improved by the expansion, sourcing, and preservation of the articles as worked on by A Nobody, or has it not. I believe it has. In any community one is allowed to disagree with one's neighbors. However, a cautionary word toward tolerance should go out to all involved... as this IS a community and we are here together.


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Ikip (talk) 20:53, 20 September 2009 (UTC) Once again, I couldn't say it better than Michael. A Nobody has had to endure a hell of a lot of uncivil attacks, such as being repeatedly called a troll, which would have gotten a lot of editors banned if it was against a more powerful editor. I have been actively working with him to stop reacting to this clear baiting, with some really positive results. For example, he no longer reacts to a certain editors stalking and calling him a troll, he lets other editors take care of it.
  2. FeydHuxtable (talk) 22:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. Fences&Windows 01:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC) With caveats. This view misses some of what concerns editors about A Nobody, but is a good summary of how some of their editing can be annoying without being disruptive per se.

Note: this view has comments

Outside view by FeydHuxtable

The subject of this RfA appears to be an editor of rare generosity of spirit. He devotes huge amounts of time and energy to defending the work of other editors, and trying to make our environment more friendly and welcoming to newcomers. Yes he has faults like all of us, but certaintly not to the extent thats implied by this highly flawed RFA. Its claimned that : "Anyone at RfA who has ever offended him, even by !voting to delete an article over a year ago, faces a withering barrage of opposition and attempts to elicit pledges to recuse from E&C/Fiction related administration activities such as AfD closes." Which is clearly untrue, at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/MuZemike for example A Nobody voted support for the (arguably) moderate deletionist MuZemike, someone he's clearly had heated disagreements with in the past. Additionally I remember A Nobody supporting in a good percentage of the RfAs I've been involved at, and yet cant recall ever seeing him oppose apart from two exceptions.

Mbisanz claims this diff Advice from MBisanz as his recent attempt to resolve the dispute with the user. I can see how the dif might seek to demonstrates Mat's familiarity with how Misplaced Pages works, but not in any way how its a sincere attempt to communicate with A Nobody, let alone to pursue dispute resolution? There's likely many more flaws here, but Ive only checked a fraction of the diffs. Theres seems to be some pride expressed here in the tactical wisdom of focusing on conduct rather than the philosophical differences between inclusionists and deletionsists. Okay, lets consider the conduct of deletionists. Even some of the ones I respect like Biroutel used to badger practically ever single keep vote back in the days when I used to try to rescue international relations articles. From a thread on ARS Ive recently seen that a talented young writer I encountered at AfD has been indef banned. Before this occurred he was followed by deletionsists onto virtually every article he was interested in , where he was hassled and has had his edits revereted and until he felt persecuted and started filing unwise sock reports, had an RFC called against him, was told he had mental health problems and was then banned. Considering how some deletionists conduct themselves A Nobodys sins pale into nothingness.

I suggest this highly flawed and over long RFC be speedily closed as a waste of time. Im also not sure whether we're dealing with the real Mbisanz here. He'd previously seemed a highly trustworthy and decent user. Even if he did want to attack A Nobody, why would he file such a feeble and manipulative RFC? It may be worth confirming that the account hasnt been compromised. PS Id probably rather no one endorses this except me, hopefully no one would be unwise enought to anyway. :-)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. FeydHuxtable (talk) 22:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  2. Ikip (talk) 23:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  3. alas, I think some of the criticism here may be correct, though I do not think I would have worded it this way. DGG ( talk ) 00:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


Note: this view has comments

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