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Made an edit

Because of their correct prediction (while almost no other economists saw it coming) of the current economic downfall, I have replaced the outdated Caplan link with an extensive New York Times story from 2008 that discusses the school in depth. If anyone has a problem with my edit, let me know. If the consensus is that the edit should be reverted, I completely disagree, but will not engage in an "editing war."

96.42.69.147 (talk) 21:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Heterodox but exaggerated

I think that the school is heterodox, and that this fact should be established. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to go on and on about how fringe it is. There is no question that it is a distinctly minority position, but there is also no question that there are many academic economists, aware or not, that could be considered to be or bordering on Austrian Economics, which is not overwhelmingly different from Chicago-style monetarism in some of its more moderate forms. Also, the school does boast three Bank of Sweden (Nobel) prizes.

Amandalindsay021 (talk) 07:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the heterodox label is the implication that an orthodox school of economics exists. Even your own answer above shows this is a fallacy because you felt the need to prefix your view with "I think . . ." Is it a certainty or is it an opinion? Shouldn't we stick to facts instead of opinion? Cluckk2 (talk) 16:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that. As far as economics proper is concerned, AmandaLindsay is right - there's no great distance between GMU Austrians and the Chicago School (despite the name, not a separate school of economic thought, but a tendency within the mainstream. The fringe aspects of the Austrian school are its methodological doctrines and the extreme right political positions of people associated with the Mises Institute.JQ (talk) 11:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The "heterodox" economics section is sketchy; it seems unfair to place the Austrians in here. I would consider the Austrians a very small minority within mainstream economics. It's not fair to compare such a historically influential school of thought that has garnered three Nobel Prizes to "Marxian" or "feminist" economics. Moreover, many "non-Austrians" are sympathizers.

96.42.69.147 (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Timing of Principles and Das Kapital

"Untenable"? Just because Marx was writing Das Kapital at the same time that Menger was working on Principles, does NOT mean that Marx's economic theories were not already in circulation. He and Engels had already published numerous articles. --xzy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.91.126.231 (talk • contribs) 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Deduction vs. induction

"...the paradigmatic assumption that economics should rest on induction from principles rather than deduction from observation has been largely rejected." It should be the other way around; you deduce from principles or induce from observation. I changed it. --Nebbons —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.64.101.17 (talk • contribs) 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Influence

The following qualification to Greenspan's comments seemed entirely out of place given it's detail and its leap of logic, hence I removed it.

(though Greenspan would later, in 2008, express “shocked disbelief” regarding the lack of protection of shareholders by lending institutions).:

Miss people

Fritz Machlup and Walter Eucken and Schumpeter.

these are 3 persons we cannot miss in this article.

• Thanks. Please be bold and add information about them. Thanks, -Willmcw 18:20, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

While Shumpeter was Austrian by nationality, he is not (usually?) considered to having been a supporter of the views of the Austrian school. I will remove his name from the list for now, until this can be resolved.

Utility theory

"The first primary area of contention between neoclassical theory and the Austrian school is over the possibility of consumer indifference — neoclassical theory says it is possible, whereas Mises rejected it as being “impossible to observe in practice”. The second major dispute arose when Mises and his students argued that utility functions are ordinal, and not cardinal; that is, the Austrians contend that one can only rank preferences and cannot measure their intensity, in direct opposition to the neoclassical view"

This is misrepresentation of the neoclassical view. Neoclassical economics does not belive in cardinal utility. While jeveons and marshal may have done post-pareto (1906) economics holds that there is no subjective measure of utility only an ordering of preferences. This is the heart of neoclasical economics and as such this paragraph is incorrect.

Criticism

This criticism is sourced to two unreliable sources. One is an article by a physics student Joe D. and other is an online FAQ. I'm surprised I need to explain that both are unreliable sources. -- Vision Thing -- 19:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. They're not valid sources for an encyclopedia. Tparameter (talk) 03:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Sources are almost always good sources about themselves. These two sources are two of the foremost sources of criticism of the Austrian school on the internet. If we are removing self-published sources, all the citations from the Mises Institute can be considered self-published and should removed as well.

Anyway, regardless, the arguments should not be moved even if those two sources are, as the same arguments are also made by Caplan; I'm reinstating with a tag to Caplan.

LK (talk) 04:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

On another note, I'm curious about the proper use of Criticism in a Misplaced Pages article. I've noticed there is a criticism section, but then criticisms and counter-points are sprinkled throughout the article in a format similar to: Austrian Point. Mainstream Criticism. Austrian Point. Mainstream Criticism. etc. Which is the proper format? If the Criticism section is correct, then the sprinkled comments need to be consolodated there. If the Sprinkled format is correct, then the criticism section needs to be redistributed.Bozimmerman (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I've read sundry takes on this, but I've found that on controversial topics edit warring slows way down when sourced criticism is put in its own section. Moreover, if there's enough sourced criticism, there's nothing untowards about making the criticism section a summary with a link to a new article called Criticism of x. This way, readers still see helpfully weighted and widely gathered sourcing without having to wade through the twisted wordings left in the wake of edit/PoV bickering editors. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Phrasing and Grammar

This sentence,

"Austrian School economists advocate the enforcement of voluntary contractual agreements between economic agents, but otherwise the smallest imposition of coercive force (especially government-imposed) on commercial transactions." in paragraph one, needs work.

The latter part of the sentence appears to be grammatically incomplete. Can some one cast this into given English? I can see what it implies, but it needs to be made explicit, IMO

Rodonn (talk) 19:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

This portion,

"A factory making goods next year is worth as much less as the goods it is making next year are worth. This means that the business cycle is driven by mis-coordination between sectors of the same economy, caused by money not carrying incentive information correct about present choices, rather than within a single economy where money causes people to make bad decisions about how to spend their time." could probably use a bit of a clean-up.

If I understood it I would correct it. Snjmom (talk) 21:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Irrefutable proof of the business cycle

There is an absurd statement regarding the empirical evidence being against the existence of a business cycle. This also goes to reinforce the idea that the scientific method and mathematics are misused by people that don't know how to interpret the evidence and don't know what premises to start with in deductive reasoning (which mathematics is a form of).

Consider the physical - What is absolute rock bottom for America even to the point of ridiculousness that could result from economic failure? Every company out of business, every person without a job. But what do we still have that an undeveloped country may not? Capital. And what happened to all the money? Did it evaporate? No. Someone is sitting on it. What do we know of the people with said money? They were somehow smart enough to obtain that money. So what are they going to do? Buy the cheap unused capital, and use it to start businesses.

Ans to IP - In Austrian economics, the notion of a business cycle has to do with credit cycles brought about by fractional reserve banking, which distorts credit, the money supply and hence the free market, this distortion in the market being observed as business cycles. The cited sources cover this but perhaps the article could deal with it more straightforwardly. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Answer to Gwen - Exactly. What this means is that they create the exaggeration of what would be an already existing micro cycle that wouldn't be as visible. The amplitude is increased by government interference to the point of visibility by artificially preventing the downturn. Then the government claims that there is no business cycle... as evidenced by the lack of an observed natural minimum. But this is because they always interfere before the minimum is reached... which further increases the depth of the next minimum. What the above argument shows is that the minimum is there for absolute certain. If you are having trouble relating this to the above argument, the credit sources above are the people with the money. They fund new business, etc. By establishing this absolute minimum, we can see that there is no logical choice but to make credit available or for the people with funds to utilize them themselves - there is no where to go but up from there.

Reinstating edits of banned user

Gwen Gale, given that the IP 123.3.175.141 has reintroduced almost exactly the same edits as the banned user Karmaisking, it is likely a sock puppet of Karmaisking. Either that or a self-admitted meatpuppet of Karmaisking. Reference the comment:

This is bullsh*t. I know this editor, but it's definitely NOT ME. "Larry the Loser" clearly wants to kill AS and promote "pretty boy" Keynes. Do NOT revert these good edits. They were NOT mine.

Note that KiK has tried this exact tactic before, using multiple socks, pretending to be new and playing mindgames with established editors. I want to remind you of policy. If reinstate edits introduced by a sockpuppet/meatpuppet of a banned user, you take full responsibility for them. Since you wish to reinstate the edits of IP 123.3.175.141 I accept them as your edits. LK (talk) 13:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what I had in mind. Seeing a steady back and forth between what I take as two very strong PoVs (and maybe more than two editors), I restored the edits mostly because, as I said, I think they need more input, let's wait and see how other editors might want to deal with this content. As an editor I don't care much for either wording, I'm here mostly as an admin but acknowledge our PoVs on this content are not the same, so I'll tread softly. If more neutrally-put wording comes up and they still revert it, that's likely going to be a worry. Also, you've reminded me about that edit summary, I'll warn the new account about PAs and civility. Meanwhile sourced criticism is welcome in the criticism section. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, edits from KiK usually start off positive. However, I felt it was more important to enforce community policy on a banned user. I have experienced this from KiK before, if his socks are ignored, he will gradually revert to more and more extreme POV edits, spicing them with insulting comments, eventually reverting to the edit warring, vulgar personal attacks and threats that he is known for. LK (talk) 14:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok. The article has been on my watchlist but I hadn't given it much heed until I saw all the undos and reverts. I'll try to watch more closely, at least. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Update: User:PersecutedAustrians has already been blocked as a sockpuppet, which is understandable and ok by me. Let's see if someone else is willing to have a go at those edits. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Gwen, this edit on LK's talk page by me before yours may be relevant. Nja 14:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd seen it, I'm ok with all of it, along with LK's latest edit. The pith of my speaking up is that I think this content needs input from more editors, hopefully neutral ones, but they're so hard to find: Folks who know about the topic at all tend to have strong outlooks. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

He's made another edit, which looks ok to me as to content and sourcing (given the edit summary is untowards), but I've asked him to stop and will likely block him if he does it again, if someone else doesn't do it first. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Content of the Lead

The lead is currently filled with clutter. Policy is that the lead should summarize the article. I suggest editing the lead so that it does that. If it's not in the body, content should be removed from the lead, and moved to the relevant section. Any objections? LK (talk) 05:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Marginalization of Austrian Economics

I find the statement “It currently lies somewhat outside mainstream economics, and contributes relatively little to mainstream economic thought.“ in the main article to be misleading and based on flimsy personal opinion articles. The history of Austrian economics includes several Nobel Laureates in economic theory that are frequently referenced in mainstream economic papers.

Of the two articles used to support this claim, one is a blog post and the other is an article written on a personal website. On top of that, in Caplan’s article he clearly states “Austrian scholars have made important contributions to economics in recent years.” Of course this is a qualified statement; however it directly contradicts the statement I am protesting in the main article.

This statement should be struck from the main article under Wiki’s rules of neutrality. The statement is the same as saying “most economists believe Austrian economics contributes relatively little to mainstream economic thought” – which is in direct conflict with the rules of neutrality found on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words

At best, the statement should be changed to say “Bryan Caplan, an economics professor at George Mason, feels Austrian economics has made important contributions to economic theory in recent years, but rather an providing theoretical mathematical models, it is based more on philosophical thought and logical thinking."

Michael.suede (talk) 16:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

We've been through this many times before. i) Weasel is a guideline , and I don't see how it applies here anyway. ii) Even Austrian school economists agree that Austrian school is somewhat out of the mainstream and currently contributes little to mainstream economics - leaving that out unbalances the article violating WP:POV, which is policy. LK (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Leaving it in is what unbalances the article. It is an opinion, not a fact. It has no bearing on informing people as to what the school represents. Are you a Keynesian economist? Your user page says you are a professional economist. If you are a Keynesian, I find it difficult to believe you could speak on the Austrian school in an unbiased manner. If you work for a university as an economist, I further question the conflicts of interest in your writing here since Austrian economics could be viewed as a direct threat to your paycheck. --Michael.suede (talk) 08:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Please read the above paragraph replacing 'Evolutionary biologist' for 'Keynesian economist' and you will see the fallacy of your argument. LK (talk) 08:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Rewriting the lead

Here is the new version

Start - The Austrian School (also known as the “Vienna School” or the “Psychological School”) emphasizes the spontaneous organizing power of the price mechanism. It holds that the complexity of subjective human choices makes mathematical modelling of the evolving market extremely difficult (or undecideable) and advocates a laissez faire approach to the economy. Austrian School economists advocate the strict enforcement of voluntary contractual agreements between economic agents, and advocate the smallest possible imposition of coercive force (especially government-imposed coercive force) on voluntary commercial transactions.

The Austrian School was influential in the early 20th century and was for a time considered by many to be part of mainstream economics. It currently lies somewhat outside mainstream economics. However, Austrian School economists' forewarnings about the global financial crisis has led to renewed interest in the School's theories.

The Austrian School derives its name from its predominantly Austrian founders and early supporters, including Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk and Ludwig von Mises. Though called 'Austrian', supporters and proponents of the Austrian School can come from any part of the world. Prominent Austrian School economists of the 20th century include Henry Hazlitt, Murray Rothbard, and Nobel Laureate Friedrich Hayek.

Austrian School economists advocate strict adherence to methodological individualism, which they describe as analyzing human action from the perspective of individual agents. Austrian School economists argue that the only means of arriving at a valid economic theory is to derive it logically from basic principles of human action, a method called praxeology. This method holds that it allows for the discovery of fundamental economic laws valid for all human action. Alongside praxeology, these theories traditionally advocated an interpretive approach to history to address specific historical events.Austrian economists contend that testability in economics is virtually impossible since it relies on human actors who cannot be placed in a lab setting without altering their would-be actions. One criticism of modern Austrian economics given by mainstream economists is that it lacks scientific precision. Austrian theories make use of verbal logic in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas. - End.

This is no end all or be all and can be talked about now and debated. I have only tried to make the lead less pov and more about the subject. I have no real personal interest in the Austrians ... pro or con. It does look like the rest of the article teeters back and forth pawing the same ground in a competitive way of pros and cons about the subject. I think it was a mistake to over do, over kill the aspect of hitting people over the head with this being a heterodox concept in the lead. That can be subtly done without making it seem like a shoot out at the o.k. corral between the mainstream and people that drift toward being advocates of the school. Thoughts and opinions? Lots of really redundant material through out this article in my opinion. skip sievert (talk) 16:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

L.K., please do not make a mass revert of this edit. You reverted it and also called the previous edit... mine included a general term.. a sock - It looks to me that you are way too involved with a pov here as to your editing that last edit. You completely reverted what was done. Not good. No discussion. Too much overt mainstream pov as in telling and leading as opposed to making an explanation in a creative way without an overt p.o.v. - skip sievert (talk) 16:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Skip, I was in the middle of mass reverting a whole bunch of edits by the newest KiK sock. In case you don't know who user:karmaisking is, please have a look at the edit histories of his extensive socks. The edits are sometimes extreme, I thought it was prudent to do a mass revert first, and go back and clean up later. I'm sorry but it takes a bit of time to sort things out. I was in the middle of checking on the edits when you reverted my revert. LK (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I am not really into this article so much except that noticing how there is a lot of tug of warring going on, it seems like the whole thing needs reformulating as to just an information presentation. I did not really look at the The Mystery of Banking, Murray Rothbard edit. In general (Rothbard) seems like a really good writer, and as he is considered mainstream Austrian???,, it seems like the article could probably use more of him??? minus the overly long block quoting. skip sievert (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It's part of the problem with this topic. There's actually two schools of thought here, sharing the same name.

• There are the academic Austrian school economists, working along the traditions of the early 20th century Austrian economists. They are represented by Peter Boettke, William Easterly, etc, and are not that different from Chicago school economists. They hold essentially the same position as Chicago school people, except that they distrust mathematical models and statistics, and prefer digging through historical documents to make their case. Here are two good articles about what these academic Austrian school economists are about: Austrian economics and the mainstream: View from the boundary", and AS entry in Econlib.
• Then, there are the libertarian Austrian school intellectuals in the tradition of Murray Rothbard and Mises, who believe in praexology and anarcho-capitalism, and are represented by Lew Rockwell, Peter Schiff, and Ron Paul, people who are not involved in academia. They are backed by the Ludwig von Mises Institute, and although they claim the academic Austrians as intellectual credentials, (ie Hayek won a Nobel, etc.), they essentially distrust the entire corpus of modern economic thought, and practice the No true Scotsman argument on these issues (ie. Schumpeter was not a true Austrian, no true Austrian disbelieves the Austrian business cycle theory, etc).

Unfortunately this article doesn't make that situation clear at all, and what's worse, it's marginalizing the ideas and concepts of the academic Austrians, in favor of the ideas from the libertarian Austrians. As you may guess, my sympathies lie with the academic Austrians, and I've been meaning to fix this article so that it better represents their viewpoint. If you're up to it, it would be great if we can commit to this project, to fix up this article. --LK (talk) 04:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that Boettke's differences with Austrians who tend to identify with Rothbard more than, say, Hayek, are partly (but not entirely) strategic and aesthetic ones--Boettke has headed up the very Austrian/Public Choice GMU graduate program in years past, concentrating many Austrian students there, while many LvMI folks like Salerno (who has criticized Boettke for other reasons (Boettke response here)) have promoted a more distributed effort to grow the school's influence in the academy. Quick searches for "peter boettke murray rothbard" reveal that Boettke frequently cites Rothbard's work, although he is by no means dogmatic about it. (See, for example, Boettke, Peter J. and Christopher J. Coyne. "The Forgotten Contribution: Murray Rothbard on Socialism in Theory and in Practice." Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, Summer 2004. Vol. 7 No. 2. .) Now, to be sure, there has been some bad blood, real or perceived, between Boettke/GMU folks and LvMI. However, many students (including legions who studied under Walter Block, an LvMI senior faculty member, at Loyola) have spent one or more summers as summer fellows at the Mises Institute before then going on to matriculate in the GMU Ph.D. econ program under Boettke. Boettke, aware of the tension between what many view as competing factions, praises the Mises Institute in this blog post. It is also incorrect to say that Boettke is not a libertarian. According to this Mercatus Center event announcement, he argues that "Rather than libertarian ideology serving as a block to creative research... it can provide the raw material for bold and original analysis into fundamental questions in the social sciences." In a comment to his response to Salerno, Boettke said, Let me be clear, I am still enthusiastic about the vision that inspired me to be an economist: Austrian economics, radical libertarianism, and revisionist history. This vision is fundamentally Rothbardian, and my entire career has been spent attempting to figure out how to advance that vision in an academic world that is hostile on almost every margin to that vision. Also I am still extremely competitive. I want Austrian economics to WIN, to control the AER, JPE, QJE, to teach at Harvard, Chicago, Stanford, even MIT. I cannot believe we haven't achieved that, and I refuse to put the blame on others. Because as any competitive person will tell you, if you want to get better you have to look in the mirror and take responsibility for failures on yourself. Taking that responsibility is a first step toward the improvements required. (Naturally, I am not arguing that blog sources should be used in this article, but I hope they provide some guidance in our further development of the article.) DickClarkMises (talk) 06:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

New section 'Philosophical differences and similarities among Austrians'

Or something like that.

L.K. makes these points.

• There are the academic Austrian school economists, working along the traditions of the early 20th century Austrian economists. They are represented by Peter Boettke, William Easterly, etc, and are not that different from Chicago school economists. They hold essentially the same position as Chicago school people, except that they distrust mathematical models and statistics, and prefer digging through historical documents to make their case. Here are two good articles about what these academic Austrian school economists are about: Austrian economics and the mainstream: View from the boundary", and AS entry in Econlib.
• Then, there are the libertarian Austrian school intellectuals in the tradition of Murray Rothbard and Mises, who believe in praexology and anarcho-capitalism, and are represented by Lew Rockwell, Peter Schiff, and Ron Paul, people who are not involved in academia. They are backed by the Ludwig von Mises Institute, and although they claim the academic Austrians as intellectual credentials, (ie Hayek won a Nobel, etc.), they essentially distrust the entire corpus of modern economic thought, and practice the No true Scotsman argument on these issues (ie. Schumpeter was not a true Austrian, no true Austrian disbelieves the Austrian business cycle theory, etc).

Could these point be included into the article to break down the current disconnect, and maybe eliminate some other area of the article in order to make this whole economic school easier to understand and make these fine distinctions? Also, could the above by L.K. be combined with some of the finer distinctions made by D.C.M. into a couple of paragraphs?... all worded as to not advocate or point the finger toward any of these branches of this idea being better or worse.?.. or more mainstream or more heterodox? Could we use L.K.'s version above, with an over view edit by D.C.M. to it ??? for starters? and would it be possible to eliminate some length in the article also by including more things to link or click on? skip sievert (talk) 14:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my version is way too POV in language and tone. There is actually some mention in the article about this issue already, in the section titled 1920–. However, in many parts of the article, the beliefs of the libertarian Austrian school are presented as the Austrian school. For instance, not all Austrian school economists subscribe to praexology, only the Misean-Rothbardians use the term. We should try to fix some of these issues. Perhaps DickClark could take a stab at it first? LK (talk) 15:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Or one of you could make a mock up, which both can edit here on the talk page before transfering to the main page. skip sievert (talk) 16:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for not being more active here, folks. I would love to be more involved, but I am pretty busy preparing for my 25 July wedding, so I am afraid I just can't devote tons of time to this until after that. Cheers, DickClarkMises (talk) 05:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Lead change

L.K. this edit you made seems severe as to pov in the lead. This amounts to ax grinding for mainstream and is unwarranted for accurate information presentation. The article should not be heavy handed with pov judgment..., also the ref/note you put in is not accessible unless what ever party signs up to some website. Lets not make the article a contest between points of view, the actual information is more interesting than that. skip sievert (talk) 16:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not up to us to judge whether something is extreme or not. That is POV. We're supposed to judge whether a statement accurately reflects the source, and whether the source is reliable. In this case, the statement accurately reflects the source, and the source is reliable. Therefore, the statement should stay in. Also, I can read the link fine. You need to go in from a university account. I'll email you a copy of the paper if you like. Note that it's not up to me to provide you with a link that you can read, as long as the paper is properly cited. Please do not contest a statement sourced to a paper that you have not read. LK (talk) 17:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

LK, surely you don't believe that every editor must read every source cited in order to say anything about an article's language conforming or not conforming to the NPOV. Some language, if offered in the encyclopedic voice, would be unacceptable regardless of the source. DickClarkMises (talk) 20:28, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Following up on the statement as it stands. It's made up of two sentences.

1. The main criticism of modern Austrian economics given by mainstream economists is that it lacks scientific rigor.
2. Austrian School theorists reject the use of mathematical models, and use verbal arguments in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas.

Both are neutral statements of facts, the truth of which can easily checked be with many reliable sources. I fail to see how either of these statements are POV. Just as in articles about evolution, global warming, and the big bang, the viewpoint of the majority of scientists should be adequately represented. As an encyclopedia, we should represent the mainstream viewpoint, and not try to censor it.

LK (talk) 17:18, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but I cannot agree here. The first statement is unsupported and is too contentious to be left without solid sources. The second statement is a truism; it accurately describes AE in accordance with the source provided, but the source does not claim that this is a negativeness about AE. --Childhood's End (talk) 20:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, and that part of the edit can be taken out. As written by L.K. it is original research stitched together as criticism as to pov. Really it is ax grinding and building a case against.

The main criticism of modern Austrian economics given by mainstream economists is that it lacks scientific rigor. End

This is a false dichotomy of argument, and especially too overtly negative a statement for the lead. In fact it sounds ridiculous. Mainstream economics is not science based. It is made up of abstract concepts tied together in a format for social control. Data is used to make sense of it all... and that is the science involved. It makes no intrinsic sense in and of itself. As with anything science can be used to format ideology, as to data manipulation. Therefore the sentence seems like a needless attack that could also be made on neo classical synthesis just as well. It should not be in the article... or should be somewhere else with a lot of framing and explanation. This is science No Economics is based on science. Economics uses data scientifically applied. That is different.

Austrian School theorists reject the use of mathematical models, and use verbal arguments in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas. End

It sounds like this edit is trying to make out the Austrians as a bunch of unsophisticated people. This is over the top as to condemning the subject in the lead of the article. This is not in any kind of context and is sourced to an opinion in a paper. This edit can be removed because it is like the other... not really illustrating anything except a supposed negative that is probably not supported by the majority of Austrians. Its like saying neo classic econo people endorsed credit default swaps because of their math models, in a lead article on them and arguing that as criticism. The source used sounds like a conjecturing opinion.

The differences between the mainstream and Austrian is really minuscule... and to try to find people that bring out trumpeting hectoring pov aspects is particularly bad for the lead here. Revert again... and reject the so called source... not because it may not reflect what it is saying, but because it may be a mis character that does not come up to the level of neutral presentation. Something like that if explained very carefully and creatively in the body of the article could be used ... maybe, but as it is placed in the lead, it is placing a ground ax with a shiny surface pov to hector against something, rather than inform as to subject. skip sievert (talk) 22:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

ARGGH! Forgive my little personal outburst. I'm really not trying to criticize Austrian school economists with the statement "Austrian School theorists reject the use of mathematical models, and use verbal arguments in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas." It is, for me, a descriptive statement. At first, I too suffered from the mainstream bias and found it outrageous that economists could reject modeling. But after reading Boettke's writings and some of his work, I see the point. Economists tend to believe their models too much. Some simplifications are necessary to make models tractable, and after the models are done, they tend to believe the simplifications even though there was no reason to choose them other than that they made the models tractable. In this, I too am 'Austrian'.

But enough of this niggling around small edits. The lead currently does not summarize the article. The article it self has serious issues along the lines outlined in the last section. We should work to first fix the article issues I've raised repeatedly over the last few months, and second, rewrite the lead so that it actually reflects what the article says.

I've been meaning to make time to do a rewrite and cleanup, and it looks like I may actually have to make time to do it soon. I know many of you don't trust me to be unbiased in this, but I swear on a stack of encyclopedias that I hold no malice towards Austrian school economists, and in fact am sympathetic to some of their arguments. However, someone else will need to check the parts on Austrian school libertarians, as I cannot make a similar pronouncement there. LK (talk) 05:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

As someone that is not personally interested in this subject beyond accurate presentation I will make one comment on the above, 'L.K... "Austrian School theorists reject the use of mathematical models, and use verbal arguments in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas." It is, for me, a descriptive statement. end L.K. -

This still just sounds like playground put-down as to the sentence statement sourced or not to something or other, and as such without a lot of explaining around it, probably is not good information. What does it actually mean? Does it mean that Austrians reject addition and subtraction when it comes to figuring out economies? It sounds like they reject basic math which models are a part of. The idea of debt is a math model... and as nearly as I can tell Austrians in general have a howling rejection of it. Right? This subject is interesting in its own way, but keeping different sides of pov out of the article is the best course, and just presenting the most interesting ideas in a creative way is best.

L.K., if rewriting this article is at issue then maybe doing it in conjunction with a lot of others by making mock ups on the talk page, and then asking opinions, and editing together with others may be a good approach. Do a section and ask for opinions and ideas, may be a good approach. skip sievert (talk) 13:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking as a page in my userspace, with an invite to everyone here to come and edit. About distrusting the use of math models, it' an accurate statement about Austrian school methodology. The point is, in economics, the most important thing to be able to do is to understand what actually happens in the real world, and have a good 'feel' for it. Math cannot substitute for that. One of the most important skills for a mainstream economist to have is to be able to relate the math models to the real world, to ask the right questions, and 'tell the right stories'. It's what makes Krugman a great economist, even though his math skills are not particularly good, as he himself admits. Austrian school methodology just takes this to an extreme (compared to the mainstream), they reject the use of mathematical modelling as a useful technique, and concentrate on trying to tell the right stories about what's going on. In case you still don't know what I mean, have a look through the latest issue of the Quarterly Journal of Economics, and the latest issue of the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. The difference should be readily apparent. Also, read the Roger E. Backhouse article, he makes the same points. LK (talk) 15:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, but it still seems like a sweeping generalization that is open to a lot of interpretation, as said... debt is a mathematical model, which they do not reject, so the argument seems selective. Mock ups on the actual talk discussion page may be better as to rewriting things. Otherwise things may get confusing, and if any and all can find this discussion page from the article it would be easier for new editors to figure out what is going on. skip sievert (talk) 15:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Austrian school economists don't reject math, they reject the use of math models as a useful method for economic investigation. Which IMHO is a perfectly valid position (albeit a bit extreme). Since you don't have easy access to journals, have a quick look at these publicly accessible papers from Health Economics and from Industrial Economics. They are pretty typical economics papers. Now, compare them to papers from the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics, here's one I recently read Product Differentiation And Economic Progress. The difference should be obvious. LK (talk) 16:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Austrian school economists don't reject math, they reject the use of math models as a useful method for economic investigation. I seriously doubt that L.K. and even if it were partly true the way it was expressed was not good in the lead. So the mainstream went for credit default swaps, and the Austrians think that going into debt is bad and having government involved so much is bad news. Really trying to make dramatic conflict between these groups as to thinking probably does not make a lot of sense. They are so akin that if anything it makes more sense to emphasize that..., as opposed to supposed big differences. They are just as tangled up in Adam Smith and abstracted glorification of money, labor, and debt concepts as most groups including the Marx people. The Pdf.. you gave on Industrial economics looked like dreary, and if there ever was a case tat the mainstream makes all kinds of artificial constructs about economics that would be a good one to use as an example, so it really does not make your point. That subject is more a science related subject Industrial ecology at least as to trying to make actual sense of it instead of normal economic sense. - skip sievert (talk) 20:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

'I seriously doubt that LK' You doubt something that multiple reliable sources (Austrian school and otherwise) attest to. This is not a valid reason to revert a sourced contribution. Please read the sources. LK (talk) 09:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I did and they do not make the extreme point that you are trying to make in context of the lead. Both schools revolved around the same issues, almost identically. Debt, labor, value, etc. - Math is intrinsic to both. Both revolve around abstracted debt concepts and moral issues. Both are political economy made up by moral philosophy, that track back to and others from that era. Instead of framing things so caustically in regard to other philosophies... lets just try to make the information available without spin or overt pov toward judgment of right or wrong or good and bad. That is the way the two former things looked. There is no point in leading people to conclusions like that in the lead. The conclusions are not really accurate anyway, and framed as generalizations without pov is less stridently terse, as the former looked. skip sievert (talk) 14:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Enough of this. I leave you with these quotes:

• Bryan Caplan: "More than anything else, what prevents Austrian economists from getting more publications in mainstream journals is that their papers rarely use mathematics or econometrics, research tools that Austrians reject on principle."
• Roger Backhouse: "Mainstream economics is about modelling in a way that Austrian economics is not." "by the 1950s, ... Hayek was no longer regarded as doing serious economics. His work on knowledge, the market, and competition, which could have found a place in the 1930s mainstream, did not fit in.
• Robert P. Murphy of the Mises Institute: "The Austrian School of economics is known for its aversion to mathematical modeling of human behavior."
• Murray Rothbard: Complains that mainstream economics looks like a “third-rate subbranch of mathematics”, asks, "If mathematics and statistics do not provide the proper method for the political economist, what method is appropriate?" He answers, praxeology, "examine the immediate elements of the proposed problem, and after having ascertained them with certainty.. . will approximately value their mutual influences with the intuitive quickness of an enlightened understanding. In short, the laws of the political economist are certain, but their blending and application to any given historical event is accomplished, not by pseudoquantitative or mathematical methods, which distort and oversimplify, but only by the use of Verstehen, “the intuitive quickness of an enlightened understanding.”
• Lew Rockwell: "give a gypsy seer a PhD in economics, and arm her with statistics and mathematical models, and people suddenly start taking her seriously ... but what she does is no different from what she did as Sister Sarah at a roadside stand."

If you view negatively the statement that 'the Austrian school economists reject mathematical modeling as useful for economic investigation', it is because you have a bias, not because the statement is not correct, sourced and verifiable. LK (talk) 16:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Not so much. Maybe they might reject credit default swaps... but so what? They still use a math based economy that is based on money, with budgets, and value associated with that. The way it was phrased before was framed in more of a put down like aspect,

Austrian School theorists reject the use of mathematical models, and use verbal arguments in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas. End

Reject the use? Not a good way to explain something probably. Is that really a good way to explain an idea? As to bias... again, not so much. I find mainstream economics very uninteresting except historically. Neutral presentation of it can be interesting though. skip sievert (talk) 22:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the word "reject" is just a bit too strong (and maybe not), but I would agree that we do not need a source to state that AS theorists are very suspicious towards mathematical models.

As to "use verbal arguments in drawing conclusions and formulating ideas", it also sounds to me as a criticism built out of apparently innocuous words. To state that they use observation and logical inferences instead of math models to draw conclusions would seem to me more accurate/neutral. The sentence would also need to be taken out of a criticism section or paragraph.

L.K., if you're interested in investigating further about math models in economics, I suggest you take a look at David Orrell's book Apollo's Arrow. Not only is it very entertaining, it's been an eye-opener for me, especially because Orrell is completely outside the economics world and he's of course in a position to teach maths to any economist. --Childhood's End (talk) 13:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

WP Econ importance

Until recently, this article was categorized as "mid" importance for WikiProject Economics. Then an IP editor began to change it without comment and I guess it's becoming an issue. If so, I'd request those who think it deserves "top" ranking go discuss it at the project page. (Not being a member of WikiProject Libertarianism, I make no judgment about the changes in that project's ranking.) CRETOG8(t/c) 02:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

empirical evidence

There's a bit in the lead which says/said, "Mainstream schools ... adopt mathematical and statistical methods, and focus on induction and empirical observation to construct and test theories; while Austrian economists reject this approach in favor of deduction and logically deduced inferences." Childhoodsend has made a small but substantive change by pulling out the "and empirical observation" part.

I'm far from an expert in this regard, but the version saying Austrians reject "empirical observation to construct and test theories" (note the entire clause) does match what I understand as the core Austrian approach. As I understand, the essential philosophy is that theories can't/shouldn't be tested. CRETOG8(t/c) 05:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Greenspan's shocked disbelief

There's a bit in the "influence" section that goes: "The former U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan, speaking of the originators of the School, said in 2000, “the Austrian school have reached far into the future from when most of them practiced and have had a profound and, in my judgment, probably an irreversible effect on how most mainstream economists think in this country”, although he would later express “shocked disbelief” at the lack of protection for shareholders by major lending institutions."

A sock of a banned user removed the "although he would later express “shocked disbelief” at the lack of protection for shareholders by major lending institutions" clause, and it's been reinserted. I have to agree in this instance that the clause doesn't belong. It's a pretty serious bit of synthesis, since there's a lot of missing connective tissue in identifying why the shocked disbelief deserves an "although", and the cited article doesn't provide the connection to Austrian economics. I think it should be re-removed. CRETOG8(t/c) 09:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

renewed interest

In the lead is the sentence, "However, some assertions of Austrian School economists have been interpreted by some as warnings about the 2007-2009 financial crisis, which has in turn led to renewed interest in the School's theories.". This is referenced to this NYT article. BigK HeX has argued the source doesn't the support the sentence, and it looks to me as if they're right.

In the NYT article, it says that "some Austrian School devotees", including Ron Paul, have claimed to have predicted the crisis. And one economic historian, David Colander says the Austrians should get more attention (particularly in contrast to Kondratieff). Neither of these really says the crisis has led to renewed interest in the school's theories.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the sentence is correct, but the source doesn't support it, so another one would need to be found.

Complicating things further, shouldn't the sentence from the lead be referring to something in the main article? It's not clear it does. Unfortunately, the closest thing in the main article is the sentence, "The global economic crisis of 2008 represents, according to some pundits, an example of the Austrian business cycle theory's dependability." This sentence is ref'd by a link to a no-longer-available article, which I've only found mirrored at this blog ("Paulson's scheme"). So that's not a good ref either. Ick. CRETOG8(t/c) 06:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for re-verifying the contested portion. BigK HeX (talk) 07:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Cretog's observation. Unfortunately, many seem to think that it's valid to add to the lead without working on the article. I would like to reiterate the principle that the lead should summarize the body of the article, in proportion to the weight of the ideas therein. LK (talk) 13:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This edit removed the reference, but left the material it supposedly supported. The sentence is "However, some assertions of Austrian School economists have been interpreted by some as warnings about the 2007-2009 financial crisis, which has in turn led to renewed interest in the School's theories and a questioning of the usefulness and efficacy of mainstream economics, even by those within the mainstream itself." The underlined clause is now unsupported by the ref, but is ref'd to this Krugman piece, which doesn't mention the Austrians. Without mentioning the Austrians, I think it's too tangential for inclusion there, and so the underlined clause should be removed as partly unref'd and otherwise irrelevant. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:46, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably not. Besides that can be written differently rather than ditching the ref/note if needed. Krugman is saying mainstream questions what is happening. It does not have to refer specifically to any group whether Libertarians or Other. It is saying that mainstream is questioned, and that is enough. Obviously Krugman is 'mainstream'. And mainstream is questioning itself currently. skip sievert (talk) 03:50, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't follow the reasoning of "probably not". Feel free to re-word it, and maybe that will resolve my issues. I'm not going to pull the Krugman ref, but it really seems out of place in the lead of an article when his piece doesn't talk about the subject of this article. CRETOG8(t/c) 04:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably not means the next most probable is probably not going to be what you were thinking in regard to the reference not being good anymore, because as said it is a descriptor of mainstream questioning itself and does not need to be a part of libertarian or Austrian or what ever, as to connecting with the sentiment of questioning itself. skip sievert (talk) 04:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

James M. Buchanan

I noticed that NYT article talks about James M. Buchanan as a member of the Austrian School. This isn't first time that I have encountered this claim. For example, according to this site he belongs to the fourth generation of Austrian theorists. Should Buchanan be mentioned in this article? -- Vision Thing -- 19:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems he's classified in the Chicago School to me. BigK HeX (talk) 23:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

There's a quote from Buchanan on this issue in the talk archives somewhere, where in an interview for Mises Inst., he says something like he doesn't object to being called one, but some Austrians may object to calling him one. Anyways, he's not a Misean praxeologist for sure. His papers are filled with math modelling. Also, his entry at the Library of Economics and Liberty, a libertarian leaning website, does not mention Austrian school. LK (talk) 02:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is the relevant quote from the interview: "I certainly have a great deal of affinity with Austrian economics and I have no objections to being called an Austrian. Hayek and Mises might consider me an Austrian but, surely some of the others would not." He should probably be mentioned in the 'Influence' section but nothing more. -- Vision Thing -- 07:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

In Cost and Choice, Buchanan presented himself as a student of a tradition whose lineage he saw as running through the Austrian School, but then being developed by thinkers at LSE in the era of Robbins and by Frank Knight at UChicago. Of course, that was Buchanan then, and his sense of his affinities has probably evolved and may still be evolving. —SlamDiego_←T 06:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Criticisms section

A number of the criticism were being presented as if simply valid, whereas some of them are overly broad, and one of them is down-right mathematically incompetent. While what neoclassical economists call “ordinal utility” is only very weakly quantified, it has been demonstrated with formal mathematics (by an Austrian School economist, in spite of claims that none of us are mathematical!) that there are economically rational preferences to which no quantification, however weak, can be fit. (See “The Austrian Theory of the Marginal Use and of Ordinal Marginal Utility”, to which I referred in correcting the section.) Thus, these weak quantifications are not purely ordinal, as they impose structure beyond total ordering. Essentially a supposition has transitioned to a mainstream dogma, in spite of a complete lack of anything resembling a proof — which proof never arrived because the supposition was false. —SlamDiego_←T 01:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

McCulloch's paper, BTW, nicely illustrates the distinction between a claim of the mainstream and verifiable claim. —SlamDiego_←T 03:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The current article presents the Austrian assertions as it were the truth, and the Mainstream viewpoint as if it were proven wrong. I point this out in the hopes that it will be fixed and balanced. LK (talk) 16:18, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

As to the article as a whole, I've not reviewed it. That doesn't change the fact that the “Criticism” section wasn't neutral, and at a point where a mainstream article of faith has indeed been verifiably proved wrong, it was instead being treated as plainly true. (This is a matter of pure math, not of interpretation of data.) Balance is not found in lending any credence to popular fallacy. —SlamDiego_←T 23:49, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

A claim has been made in a paper written by proponents of a heterodox school that the mainstream orthodox framework is lacking. The article uses this to support a plain statement that mainstream microeconomics methodology has been proven wrong. The paper in question was not published in a major mainstream journal, nor was it peer-reviewed by anyone except proponents of the heterodox school. Misplaced Pages should not use this to present as a fact, that orthodox mainstream methodology has been proven wrong. I ask that you (or another editor) balance the presentation in that section. LK (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Utterly wrong. Zeitschrift für Nationalökonomie is a well-established mainstream journal, amongst those published the highly respected Springer-Verlag. (Nowadays, it is better known by the name “Journal of Economics”, but in 1977 it was still using its original name.) It has never been a journal of any school, and the peer-review there was and is no more likely to be by heterodox economists than that at any other mainstream journal. (McCulloch himself, BTW, was from September 1983 to September 1991 the editor of the Journal of Money, Credit and Banking.)

You are confusing your own grossly uninformed conjecture with plain fact. Time to back off. —SlamDiego_←T 08:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Given that the link given was to mises.org (and that the title had 'Austrian' in it), I assumed that it was from one of the journals sponsored by them. I have just gone through the paper (albeit rather quickly). I don't see how it supports your contention that Caplan's view (which is essentially the mainstream view) is somehow proven wrong by the paper. Caplan's assertion is that the AS criticism of the mainstream for using cardinal utility is incorrect, because the AS criticism ignores the mainstream methodology of checking that theorems hold true for monotonic transformations. He argues that this methodology means that the mainstream view and the AS view concerning utility are actually not that different, and the AS proponents overstate the difference. As far as I can tell, the McCulloch paper shows that there is a difference between merely specifying a choice ordering, and looking at all possible monotonic transformations of a cardinal utility function. I don't see how this disproves Caplan's assertion. LK (talk) 09:46, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

And the answer is that the weak quantifications are plainly not purely ordinal, as Caplan apparently claims (I trust that you have not misrepresented Caplan); and the parenthetical note does no more than to note that they are not. The parenthetical note does not claim that any other criticism by any member of the Austrian School on the issue of ordinality v. cardinality is fully vindicated, let alone that every such criticism is vindicated. Unfortunately, I am unaware of any “reliable” source that carefully walks through the actually very different notions inconsistently labelled “ordinal” and “cardinal” just amongst mainstream authors, let alone one that then breaks-down just where and how various Austrian School economists get some things right and some things very wrong with respect to these different notions; absenting that, we'd be awash in original synthesis if we handled this issue in an otherwise proper way. Economics — both mainstream and Austrian School — desperately needs a proper critique. But Misplaced Pages itself cannot provide it for anyone (until it is provided by a “reliable” source).

As to the title having “Austrian” in it, one should suspect original synthesis if it didn't. (In fact, McCulloch's article is an adaptation of work in a paper from Kraft, Pratt, and Seidenberg, and so, were original synthesis here permissible, Caplan's claim could be refuted even had McCulloch never written his.) And, as to the link to mises.org, it is well established that some of material that they provide is peer-reviewed &c. —SlamDiego_←T 10:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out why I shouldn't have assumed that the paper was from a mises.org sponsored journal. LK (talk) 10:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW, the Mises Institute didn't come into existence until 1982; you can take it as a given that they didn't sponsor the publication of anything before then. —SlamDiego_←T 10:39, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Problems with reversions

I notice that one editor with a couple of others has done much reverting on this article of sourced material and referred to socks very often as a catchall to reverting sourced information. Whether or not socks are involved is an issue, but they may be or may not be. Before getting revert happy in a pov sort of way as this self described expert editor is doing, I suggest that if a sock is suspected then it be brought to an investigation, because it could well be just another editor that does not endorse or consider themselves a proponent of mainstream as Lawrence Khwoo does according to his user page as to wanting to present mainstream views. This is just pointing about editing issues here in a Misplaced Pages:Call a spade a spade way, though recently L.K. has accused me of making personal attacks on him which I have not done. There is a difference as to pointing something out.

WP:Wikilawyering about socks can quickly get caught in meaningless loops of muddle which only slow things down (whatever the hoped for outcome). With editors still fixated on notions of "mainstream," as ever, there is nothing in Misplaced Pages policy that says articles are meant or need to put forth a "mainstream" outlook. What some editors don't understand is that readers (often the kind who check out what WP has to say on a topic) aren't fooled for long by articles with oddly narrow outlooks and sourcing but rather, more often than not, it only stirs them up to look elsewhere. If there is an ax grinding and limiting aspect in articles that is not good, and if people removed good sourced information because they disagree with it, that is not good either. Crusading aspects of truth giving is not good. skip sievert (talk) 16:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I assume Skip is talking about this reversion by LK. Skip and I then went back and forth on reversions ourselves and, as of this writing, it's back to the version by the suspected sock. There is a particular banned user who makes a habit of creating socks and editing these articles. LK has, as near as I can tell, been very good about recognizing and reverting those socks. He placed a tag on the talk page of the suspected sock puppet. He explained the reversion in the edit summary. All of this seems in order to me, and has nothing to do with the POV of LK or the suspected sock.

Skip also nearly accused me of being a meat puppet.

Skip, if you like the changes, you can certainly restore them, and then they are your edits rather than the suspected sock's. If LK's suspicions turn out to be wrong, the accused sock can certainly complain. If you think LK is abusing the sock identification, you can ask an admin for help.

So, there are various courses of action: You can claim an edit as your own, or you can formally request someone stop LK's use of sock identification. I think reverting a banned user's contributions makes perfect sense, and I've been impressed with LK's ability to identify this particular banned editor so far.

What you shouldn't do is accuse LK and myself of editing in bad faith. CRETOG8(t/c) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't really care about your faith, good or bad. Skip and I then went back and forth on reversions ourselves and, as of this writing, it's back to the version by the suspected sock. No it is my version. There is a particular banned user who makes a habit of creating socks and editing these articles. LK has, as near as I can tell, been very good about recognizing and reverting those socks. He placed a tag on the talk page of the suspected sock puppet. He explained the reversion in the edit summary. All of this seems in order to me, and has nothing to do with the POV of LK or the suspected sock.... that may be.. but when I reverted I did claim the edit. So your argument does not really make sense. Also if a supporter of mainstream is constantly getting rid of criticism of mainstream it is bound to bring up questions. Also, if L.K. suspects socks, then it is probably a good idea to start an investigation, instead of depending on whether you think he is good at identifying socks or not. Also when two editors work together in a pattern of reverts it seems logical that conclusions may be drawn as to acting together pov wise. skip sievert (talk) 01:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the version. here's the diff from before LK's revert to after your revert. There is no difference, so what I wrote is correct. Now, if in your edit summary, you had written "I like these edits, restoring them" or something like that to claim them as your own, I would not have gotten involved. Instead you wrote "Tossing around sock too much. If so prove please. Otherwise stop reverting." in reverting LK and "No more tandem editing please by mainstream proponents. That is a no no." in reverting me. These edit summaries read very clearly as not being about the content of the article, but rather about what you characterize as misbehavior on our parts. CRETOG8(t/c) 01:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Let's just accept those edits as Skip's edits, and leave it at that, since he likes them so much that he is willing to essentially edit war over them. That's not to say that they will stay up forever. As I noted before, the lead is in serious need of trimming. LK (talk) 02:39, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I trimmed a large section of lead that did not really go anywhere or do anything in particular, and also got rid of a disputed citation/ref, and also copy edited the lead for clarity. Lets not use the term edit war. That is not good. skip sievert (talk) 03:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead

The lead/was should/not be so long and rambling as to critical perspective of mainstream as regards Austrian. I removed a mainstream critique which is a pov from the lead as not pertinent here. Putting in the weight of mainstream is not called for in the lead. This article is about Austrian economics and the focus can be about the subject in the lead and not a view about critical points so prominent right up front. It was almost like putting a disclaimer in the lead about the whole subject. skip sievert (talk) 16:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I note that your recent edit did not properly balance the lead. According to the Manual of Style, the lead should summarize the body. Please include in the lead the main themes from the body according to the weight they have in the body. Please remove from the lead anything not mentioned with enough weight in the body. LK (talk) 05:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no point in making the lead into a critique of the subject from the view point of so called mainstream, except by a sentence maybe. Also you wholesale revert editors, with no authority recently and in the past on this article. A topic ban of editing economic articles may be in order. If you are serious about investigating socks then do it but do NOT use this as an editing tool. Misplaced Pages is NOT a battleground.skip sievert (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The article is about the Austrian School, not Austrian school (criticism), it shouldn't be a WP:Coatrack for criticisms of the Austrian school, nor should the MoS be used as a means to make that happen. Morever, there is nothing in en.Misplaced Pages policy that says articles should carry a "mainstream outlook": The only way I've seen the fuzzy, overwrought, almost meaningless word mainstream brought up in policy is at Misplaced Pages:RS, which only talks about a topic being notable if it has been noted in "mainstream academic discourse" along with "mainstream sources" as being reliable, which are not at all the same things. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

NPV demands that the majority viewpoint and all reasonable sourced criticisms of the minority viewpoint appear on the page. See the 'Undue weight' and 'Giving equal validity' sections in the WP:NPV policy page. A relevant paragraph is:

In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, the views may receive more attention and space. However, such pages should make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view, and that it is in fact a minority view. The majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader may understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding parts of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained.

Additionally, the MOS specifies that the lead reflects the body. Currently, it does not. There are things that appear in the lead that are not in the body, those should be moved to the body. And there are issues raised in the article that are not summarized in the lead. These need to be included. This includes the mainstream majority viewpoint about Austrian school theories.

LK (talk) 14:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Try putting any sourced criticisms in their own section, summarizing that with a sentence or two in the lead. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I gave it one sentence with a ref/note and citation as to that now in the lead. Since you are a proponent (L.K.) according to your user page of mainstream economics and its portrayal, and seem to edit with a pov that affirms that conflict of interest on articles that relate to or are related to economics, and also use editing tools in my view wrongly, and make false edit summaries such as socks for an excuse to maintain certain pov edits (without knowing if that is the case) on certain pages such as this one, I do believe that a topic ban on editing economics related articles may be in order, at least for a time, as you show no slow up in that regard. It is noted that mainstream carries no weight. R.s. carry weight as does neutral pov. Trying to make articles into other topics is not called for. Making an article about Austrian economics into a review and critique to a pov about mainstream or Keynes versions of economics with that large section in the lead is disruptive, it has been pointed out as such, and continuing to call other edits socks is not suggested unless under investigation, they turn out to be. skip sievert (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The above is a personal attack. You have just accused me of placing my own interests above that of Misplaced Pages, of abusing my rollback privileges, of knowingly mis-identifying as a sock an innocent user, of lying in my edit summaries, of pushing a POV and of disruptive editing. I ask again that you stop your personal attacks. Note that the username of User:KeynesianLeninistCensors gives him away as a KiK sock. Also note this, his second edit on Misplaced Pages. It is implausible that a new editor will leave as an edit comment, an insult about another editor that he has purportedly never interacted with. That this is a KiK sock should be obvious to anyone who makes a cursory review. I would like an apology Skip, or at least an admission that you were wrong. LK (talk) 15:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I do see a pattern and Misplaced Pages:Call a spade a spade is allowed. Users often cite policies, like our policy against personal attacks and our policy against incivility, not to protect themselves from personal attacks, but to protect their edits from review. I am now trying to kindly inform you of that. skip sievert (talk) 15:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

O for fuck's sake, Skip, SHUT THE FUCK UP! You are a babbling lunatic. You have a bizarre take on economics, a clearly wp:fringe take on it, and lately rather than push your own take you've decided that anything which is non-mainstream must be better than mainstream. You insult other editors (myself included) regularly, and you take offense yourself at the drop of a hat. You make threats by saying you keep records and that someone should be topic-banned, but you don't do anything about it, since the result might go against you. You clearly don't understand WP policy, but that doesn't keep you from badly copy & pasting others comments referring to policy into your postings as if they support your view. You waste a phenomenal amount of time of other editors by sending already heated discussions way off track. I'm sure there's something you can contribute to Misplaced Pages, but your current behavior is a large net negative. CRETOG8(t/c) 17:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Good faith assertions that an editor has gone beyond the bounds of policy and guidelines are not personal attacks. Please don't call them personal attacks.

As for the socking, there is no need to put up with it at all and LK is within policy when he reverts straightforward socks, but editors should be aware, a) they can restore the edits if they themselves are willing to stand by them and b) single purpose socking like that is so disruptive, it can and often does come from the other side of the PoV towards which it edits, as a sneaky way to "discredit" that very PoV. I've seen this happen time and again on controversial/contested topics.

Try a criticims section, put them all there and summarize that in the lead. There's nothing untowards about doing this and it skirts a lot of muddle. Again, the article is about the Austrian school, the article is not about its critics. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Now that he is presented with evidence, I would like an admission from Skip that he was wrong about the accusation he made against me. LK (talk) 15:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of what? I suggest you go to the sock review area and ask them what they think Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations. I did not make an accusation, I tried to point out behavior according to my opinion. Would it not be appropriate to report people you believe are socks instead of just thinking they are or using that as an editing tool as in reverting? skip sievert (talk) 16:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I do think a CU on all these socks would be fitting. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

1. "Greenspan Concedes Error on Regulation". The New York Times Company. Retrieved 2009-03-13.
2. Caplan, Bryan. "Why I Am Not an Austrian Economist". George Mason University. Retrieved 2008-07-04.
3. Mankiw, Greg. "Mankiw: Austrian Economics". Retrieved 2009-02-08.
4. Economic Lessons from Lenin's Seer, Kyle Crichton, Feb 19, 2009, NYTimes
5. The Austrian School of Economics, Peter J. Boettke
6. Ludwig von Mises. "The Principle of Methodological Individualism". Human Action. Ludwig von Mises Institute. Retrieved 2009-04-24.
7. The interpretive turn, Don Lavoie
8. The Fed's modus operandi: Panic by Steve H. Hanke

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