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Revision as of 17:00, 8 October 2009

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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Comments about Roman Polanski

I have removed these, as they carry undue weight when balanced against the rest of Mitterrand's career. His comments are notable, but are more suited to the article on Polanski's recent arrest. Kevin (talk) 21:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

His children and sexual orientation

This comment has been added and now reads...

He is openly bisexual and has three sons: Mathieu, Said and Jihed

this is just wrong, the children bit is worthless and looks uncited, why are his three children in the same phrase as his sexuality? The children are not even worth a mention. Off2riorob (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, I dislike all the sexual tagging, he is not allowed to be a french actor, he has to be a lesbian, bisexual or gay french actor, what rubbish, he is not notable for his sexual tastes, he is notable as a writer, as a politician and whatever. Off2riorob (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

A person's sexual orientation and family are very relevant to their life. A biography is about a person's life as a whole, not just his career. He is openly bi and there are LGBT themes in his work; the categorisation is correct. We don't WP:CENSOR info for anyone's benefit, a bio should be a full account of the subject's life. How can you claim it is irrelevant to a person's life that he has 3 children? Wiki editor 6 (talk) 21:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

This article is not controversial at all. why is it controversial? Also please cite for me that he has three children and why it is very relevent? Are any of them notable in their own right? no, so why do we need to name them> we don't. Also remove the childrens name from the single phrase that includes his sexuality. Off2riorob (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Where I come from we treat people with respect and consider their talents first , their sexuality is their own buisness. he is a french actor and yet you only add french bgl actor. why is that? Off2riorob (talk) 21:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the sexuality from the children sentence, and moved it to a slightly more relevant place. I don't see the value in the children's names either. Kevin (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the 3children to a seperate section, family life..the childrens names should also go. Off2riorob (talk) 21:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He is a controversial figure, and meets the Misplaced Pages definition of that due to the frequent recent additions which are reverted and added back and forth. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

No he is not, he is a normal person doing his thing, the roman polanski fall out is affecting half a dozen articles and this is one of them, that does not make this person controversial at all. Off2riorob (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He is controversial not merely due to his connection to Polanksi - look at this article's history. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 22:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I added relevant, correct cats. The subject chose to make his sexual orientation everyone's business by going into public life, coming out and utilising LGBT themes in his work. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 22:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Well perhaps it is more important to you than to him. I have looked at the history, there is nothing controversial about the history at all. I find that what you did by adding his childrens name to the same phrase as his sexuality controversial. Off2riorob (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

A subject's children are relevant, whether notable on not, hence why non-notable children (and parents, siblings, spouses) are mentioned on thousands of bios. A bio is an overview of a person's life, not merely their career. To not include a subject's children is a major omission when they exist. Their names are not excessive detail; in fact, there should be more info on the article about each of them: place of birth, year of birth, name of mother. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Per Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Privacy_of_names the names etc of relatives are not used unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Kevin (talk) 22:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

His defense of Polanski

I agree that Frédéric Mitterrand is obviously a controversial person. Frédéric Mitterrand admitted to paying for sex with 'young boys’ in Thailand (telegraph.co.uk) is only one of the many controversies he has been involved in. The Polanski incident is not the first time he defends pedophilia, he been under harsh criticism from other French politicians before. Urban XII (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"On Tuesday, the opposition Socialists joined the chorus of outrage. Benoît Hamon, the party spokesman, said: “As a minister of culture he has drawn attention to himself by defending a film maker and he has written a book where he said he took advantage of sexual tourism. To say the least, I find it shocking.” (from the article linked above). Urban XII (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Reporting of the accusations by the right wing daughter of pen, related to the book that has been released as fiction and pen is interpreting as fact and on which this link is reporting is nothing but, well..fiction. Off2riorob (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

This is incorrect. You are making a straw man argument. Urban XII (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose Le Pen is a socialist? "The Socialist party, the main opposition, said that it was appalled that the apparent practitioner of pedophile abuse was serving as a Cabinet Minister. "I find it shocking that a man can justify sex tourism under the cover of a literary account," said Benoît Hamon, a senior Socialist. Urban XII (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The Polanski related BLP violation edit

If it is not reverted I am going to report it. Off2riorob (talk) 22:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. This case is making international headlines and he is about to loose his job. It certainly needs to be mentioned in the article. Urban XII (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

We can wait until the dust has settled as far as WP:BLPs go. Young might not mean illegal too. Verbal chat 22:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, for BLP, lets see where this goes to, or not, whatever way it goes. Off2riorob (talk) 22:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, please be aware of not breaking BLP in comments. There are several on this page that directly accuse the subject of doing illegal things without evidence. 22:42, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He has been in the news for weeks for his defense of Polanski. Internationally, he's mostly known for the pedophilia-related controversy that involves his defense of Polanski. BLP does not apply in this case, all the information is from reliable sources (actually The Times and The Daily Telegraph, countless other sources can be found). Urban XII (talk) 22:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Protected

As a result of a request at WP:RFP, I have protected this page until such time as the dispute is resolved. Kevin (talk) 23:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggest reinstating previous version

I suggest the previous version is reinstated. The content is supported by reliable sources and is relevant – Mitterrand is internationally mostly known for this incident. There are no valid reasons (i.e. reasons supported by Misplaced Pages policy) to remove it. Urban XII (talk) 23:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely outrageous that this paedophilia is not mentioned LaFoiblesse 2009-10-08 00:55 (GMT)

Where is the RS, per BLP, for paedophilia? Verbal chat 04:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from making straw man comments. All the information is sourced (The Daily Telegraph and The Times). It has never been claimed in the article that Mitterrand is a pedophile, the article has, and must, address his comments on the pedophilia case involving Polanski, who is convicted of child sexual abuse, as well as the recent controversy in France involving calls from several parties including the main opposition party (socialists) for his resignation. This is not a trivial incident, but a major political scandal that urgently needs to be covered by the article. Urban XII (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Btw: "The Socialist party, the main opposition, said that it was appalled that the apparent practitioner of pedophile abuse was serving as a Cabinet Minister" (The Times). Urban XII (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree: It is well documented and quite notable. Indeed, it is at the heart of his international fame and is at the center of a French political maelstrom. Ignoring its reality is irresponsible.99.142.5.86 (talk) 15:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

While the section heading is clearly inappropriate, and probably should be changed to something like "Sex Tourism Controversy," the extensive press coverage makes the notability of the controversy clear. The BBC, within the last few hours, reported not only the details of the controversy, as well as a commentator's suggestion that the dispute will affect European negotiations over supressing the sex trade with Thailand. Mitterand doesn't dispute the central charges, although he does challenge the interpretation of his references to having paid for sex with "boys" as implying underaged males. The Polanski controversy needs to be mentioned only briefly and as the matter which touched off renewed attention to Mitterand's prior statements. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The section heading clearly fails BLP policy and was the main reason for the removal. The whole thing could do with a bit of fine tuning, but the heading is just wrong. Accusations of vandalism are unfounded. Verbal chat 16:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but I'd add that the text, as written, seems to come from a strong POV, even when compared to the sources. The "young boys" claim needs to be placed in context per Mitterrand's explanation, and there is some support for Mitterrand which is lacking. I also agree that this should be separated a bit from Polanski, which is a minor issue in context - a trigger, but potentially little more. - Bilby (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

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