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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Comments about Roman Polanski

I have removed these, as they carry undue weight when balanced against the rest of Mitterrand's career. His comments are notable, but are more suited to the article on Polanski's recent arrest. Kevin (talk) 21:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

His children and sexual orientation

This comment has been added and now reads...

He is openly bisexual and has three sons: Mathieu, Said and Jihed

this is just wrong, the children bit is worthless and looks uncited, why are his three children in the same phrase as his sexuality? The children are not even worth a mention. Off2riorob (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, I dislike all the sexual tagging, he is not allowed to be a french actor, he has to be a lesbian, bisexual or gay french actor, what rubbish, he is not notable for his sexual tastes, he is notable as a writer, as a politician and whatever. Off2riorob (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

A person's sexual orientation and family are very relevant to their life. A biography is about a person's life as a whole, not just his career. He is openly bi and there are LGBT themes in his work; the categorisation is correct. We don't WP:CENSOR info for anyone's benefit, a bio should be a full account of the subject's life. How can you claim it is irrelevant to a person's life that he has 3 children? Wiki editor 6 (talk) 21:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

This article is not controversial at all. why is it controversial? Also please cite for me that he has three children and why it is very relevent? Are any of them notable in their own right? no, so why do we need to name them> we don't. Also remove the childrens name from the single phrase that includes his sexuality. Off2riorob (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Where I come from we treat people with respect and consider their talents first , their sexuality is their own buisness. he is a french actor and yet you only add french bgl actor. why is that? Off2riorob (talk) 21:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the sexuality from the children sentence, and moved it to a slightly more relevant place. I don't see the value in the children's names either. Kevin (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the 3children to a seperate section, family life..the childrens names should also go. Off2riorob (talk) 21:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He is a controversial figure, and meets the Misplaced Pages definition of that due to the frequent recent additions which are reverted and added back and forth. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

No he is not, he is a normal person doing his thing, the roman polanski fall out is affecting half a dozen articles and this is one of them, that does not make this person controversial at all. Off2riorob (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He is controversial not merely due to his connection to Polanksi - look at this article's history. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 22:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I added relevant, correct cats. The subject chose to make his sexual orientation everyone's business by going into public life, coming out and utilising LGBT themes in his work. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 22:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Well perhaps it is more important to you than to him. I have looked at the history, there is nothing controversial about the history at all. I find that what you did by adding his childrens name to the same phrase as his sexuality controversial. Off2riorob (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

A subject's children are relevant, whether notable on not, hence why non-notable children (and parents, siblings, spouses) are mentioned on thousands of bios. A bio is an overview of a person's life, not merely their career. To not include a subject's children is a major omission when they exist. Their names are not excessive detail; in fact, there should be more info on the article about each of them: place of birth, year of birth, name of mother. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Per Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Privacy_of_names the names etc of relatives are not used unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Kevin (talk) 22:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

His defense of Polanski

I agree that Frédéric Mitterrand is obviously a controversial person. Frédéric Mitterrand admitted to paying for sex with 'young boys’ in Thailand (telegraph.co.uk) is only one of the many controversies he has been involved in. The Polanski incident is not the first time he defends pedophilia, he been under harsh criticism from other French politicians before. Urban XII (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"On Tuesday, the opposition Socialists joined the chorus of outrage. Benoît Hamon, the party spokesman, said: “As a minister of culture he has drawn attention to himself by defending a film maker and he has written a book where he said he took advantage of sexual tourism. To say the least, I find it shocking.” (from the article linked above). Urban XII (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Reporting of the accusations by the right wing daughter of pen, related to the book that has been released as fiction and pen is interpreting as fact and on which this link is reporting is nothing but, well..fiction. Off2riorob (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

This is incorrect. You are making a straw man argument. Urban XII (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose Le Pen is a socialist? "The Socialist party, the main opposition, said that it was appalled that the apparent practitioner of pedophile abuse was serving as a Cabinet Minister. "I find it shocking that a man can justify sex tourism under the cover of a literary account," said Benoît Hamon, a senior Socialist. Urban XII (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The Polanski related BLP violation edit

If it is not reverted I am going to report it. Off2riorob (talk) 22:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. This case is making international headlines and he is about to loose his job. It certainly needs to be mentioned in the article. Urban XII (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

We can wait until the dust has settled as far as WP:BLPs go. Young might not mean illegal too. Verbal chat 22:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, for BLP, lets see where this goes to, or not, whatever way it goes. Off2riorob (talk) 22:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, please be aware of not breaking BLP in comments. There are several on this page that directly accuse the subject of doing illegal things without evidence. 22:42, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He has been in the news for weeks for his defense of Polanski. Internationally, he's mostly known for the pedophilia-related controversy that involves his defense of Polanski. BLP does not apply in this case, all the information is from reliable sources (actually The Times and The Daily Telegraph, countless other sources can be found). Urban XII (talk) 22:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Protected

As a result of a request at WP:RFP, I have protected this page until such time as the dispute is resolved. Kevin (talk) 23:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggest reinstating previous version

I suggest the previous version is reinstated. The content is supported by reliable sources and is relevant – Mitterrand is internationally mostly known for this incident. There are no valid reasons (i.e. reasons supported by Misplaced Pages policy) to remove it. Urban XII (talk) 23:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely outrageous that this paedophilia is not mentioned LaFoiblesse 2009-10-08 00:55 (GMT)

Where is the RS, per BLP, for paedophilia? Verbal chat 04:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from making straw man comments. All the information is sourced (The Daily Telegraph and The Times). It has never been claimed in the article that Mitterrand is a pedophile, the article has, and must, address his comments on the pedophilia case involving Polanski, who is convicted of child sexual abuse, as well as the recent controversy in France involving calls from several parties including the main opposition party (socialists) for his resignation. This is not a trivial incident, but a major political scandal that urgently needs to be covered by the article. Urban XII (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Btw: "The Socialist party, the main opposition, said that it was appalled that the apparent practitioner of pedophile abuse was serving as a Cabinet Minister" (The Times). Urban XII (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree: It is well documented and quite notable. Indeed, it is at the heart of his international fame and is at the center of a French political maelstrom. Ignoring its reality is irresponsible.99.142.5.86 (talk) 15:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

While the section heading is clearly inappropriate, and probably should be changed to something like "Sex Tourism Controversy," the extensive press coverage makes the notability of the controversy clear. The BBC, within the last few hours, reported not only the details of the controversy, as well as a commentator's suggestion that the dispute will affect European negotiations over supressing the sex trade with Thailand. Mitterand doesn't dispute the central charges, although he does challenge the interpretation of his references to having paid for sex with "boys" as implying underaged males. The Polanski controversy needs to be mentioned only briefly and as the matter which touched off renewed attention to Mitterand's prior statements. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The section heading clearly fails BLP policy and was the main reason for the removal. The whole thing could do with a bit of fine tuning, but the heading is just wrong. Accusations of vandalism are unfounded. Verbal chat 16:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The section heading was never intended and could not reasonable be interpreted as an accusation of pedophilia against Mitterrand. Rather, it was meant as a summary of the main topic of the controversy, including his defense of a film maker convicted of sex with a child. The word pedophilia has been used by reliable sources like The Times in connection with the recent incident. However, the section heading itself was a minor issue at least to me. If you disagreed with the section heading, you could have changed just the section heading or suggested an alternative. All the contents of the section were supported by the two sources (The Daily Telegraph and The Times). Urban XII (talk) 17:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC)"Sex Tourism Controversy" is an acceptable compromise, and more accurately indicates the greater issues at the heart of it. Are we now ready to return the prose with the objectionable header sorted out? = 99.142.5.86 (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but I'd add that the text, as written, seems to come from a strong POV, even when compared to the sources. The "young boys" claim needs to be placed in context per Mitterrand's explanation, and there is some support for Mitterrand which is lacking. I also agree that this should be separated a bit from Polanski, which is a minor issue in context - a trigger, but potentially little more. - Bilby (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree with Bilby. Verbal chat 17:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous and unfounded accusation. Please prove it. The text had the same tone and used the same expressions as The Times and The Daily Telegraph, the two sources. It may be your opinion that The Times holds "a strong POV", but that would be OR. Urban XII (talk) 17:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that The Times has a POV, but the text as previously inserted does. In The Times they stated Mitterrand's assertion that the "young boys" were not underage. Leaving that out is a significant problem with the proposed text, as well as mentioning the credit the book gained upon release. In The Telegraph there was mention of Xavier Bertrand's support of Mitterrand, which is also missing, and I suspect other support will, or has, emerged. The proposed text only mentions one side and leaves open the suggestion that the "young boys" were underage, which is by no means necessarily the case. - Bilby (talk) 22:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest a header with the book name and then a little bla bla about the book and then a couple of comments regarding the recent comments from le pen and perhaps something from another source and a rebuttal of some sort from Mitterand, I have a cite I read where the book is claimed to be literacy fantasy and not a factual representation.Off2riorob (talk) 17:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The book, the rent boys and the support of Polanski are certainly all of international notability, having been reported quite prominently in the mainstream media in several countries. The Times and The Telegraph are certainly both reliable, mainstream national newspapers with a sizeable readership. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Edit request

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Frédéric Mitterrand. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

The three childrens names are surplus to requirements, they have no notability of their own and require a bit of protection in this situation, the names need removing. Off2riorob (talk) 17:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

If the names are removed, the fact he has three sons should remain in this article; it is relevant biographical info. Wiki editor 6 (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps if you want that to stay in the article you could find a citation for it, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 18:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree, it should be removed until sourced, and only basic info (-names) should be included from the source. Verbal chat 18:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Sentence for sentence; please show us the evidence that the text is not correct

Some users have insisted that the section on the sex tourism controversy is "highly libellous" and not supported by its sources. However, they have so far refused to back up their claims. Unless we are soon shown some evidence, I will consider these accusations to be dismissed once and for all.

Sentence for sentence:

"In 2005, he wrote a book where he admitted paying for sex with "young boys" in Thailand. "

"Frédéric Mitterrand admitted to paying for sex with 'young boys’ in Thailand", this is even the heading of the Telegraph article, with further details below. The sentence is directly based upon the Telegraph article.

"After he emerged as one of the most vociferous defenders of Roman Polanski, who was convicted of having sex with a minor in the United States and who was arrested in 2009, Mitterrand came under harsh criticism from both the right-wing and the left-wing in French politics, and both the right-wing Front National and the Socialist Party called for his resignation. Socialist party spokesman Benoît Hamon stated: “As a minister of culture he has drawn attention to himself by defending a film maker and he has written a book where he said he took advantage of sexual tourism. To say the least, I find it shocking.”"

Well, just read the two sources. What exactly do you dispute here?

Urban XII (talk) 18:05, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we're beyond that now. There seems to be consensus for the edit with minimal changes.99.142.5.86 (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Where is this consensus? Regarding the edit..I would say that just sticking in peodo this and peodo that gives it undue weight, we are not here to titilate, a full rounded encyclopaedic comment should be added, as I said with the context added, if it is all about what was in the book then give a synopsis of the book to explain what it is all about and then a rounded explanation of the comments from le pen and some other relevent details, not just...in a book he said he pays for children and he supports the other ... polanski. Off2riorob (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Consensus, not unanimous consent. It'll be fine O2R, we're tweaking it now.99.142.5.86 (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

We? Off2riorob (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The community. You, I, them. We. - 99.142.5.86 (talk) 19:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Edit request

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Frédéric Mitterrand. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

There seems to be a clear consensus to reinstate this version with the heading changed to "Sex tourism controversy", per the discussion above. Urban XII (talk) 19:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I do not think this edit should be replaced at all, the edit carries undue weight to comments made in a book that is not expanded on at all. Off2riorob (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I also don't think it should be reinstated as it is currently phrased because it is not WP:NPOV and doesn't clarify by giving the context and Frédéric Mitterrand's side, although I do think the "controversy" does need to be included in the article. A couple of points that I think are important to include are

• According to the BBC, "the account of cruising for prostitutes in Thailand attracted little attention when it was published in 2005" . So the recent controversy the passage in the book has attracted is only in the context of Frédéric Mitterrand's support for Polanski. It's also in the context of a political rival making an allegation for political reasons. Prior to that there hadn't been a controversy for 4 years of the book's life. For that reason, the context that the controversy is only in relation to his support of Polanski needs to be included, as well as who initiated the controversy (it was only "after a leader of the far-right National Front launched a tirade", according to the Associated Press ). Claiming that the passage of the book has been controversial without that context would be untrue.
• It's worth noting that in the book he refers to one of these "young boys" he was attracted to as being 20 years old ("J'imaginais Tony Leung à vingt ans" - the "controversial" passage is published in Le Monde ). Also, he has said that the term "boys" was used loosely and that "each time I was with people who were my age, or who were five years younger — there wasn't the slightest ambiguity" ; by which he means they were not underage. In order to maintain a neutral point of view, Mitterrand's clarification of the meaning of "young boys" and clarification that they were not underage needs to be included in the same sentence or immediately before or after the accusation.

Whatever anyone's personal feelings, Misplaced Pages needs to represent both sides of the "story" and make sure it's not given undue weight. Don't get this (talk) 20:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this material should be included in some form, but not this one. I oppose this request. The text should be workshopped on the page. Verbal chat 21:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I share the concerns. The POV problems have yet to be addressed, and this needs discussion before any change can be made. - Bilby (talk) 21:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

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