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Four or five years term?

I'm sure that both his first and second terms were 5 years. His first term lasted only 3 years and a half, but he was elected to a 5 years term both in 2004 and 2008. The first term was shortened because a new constitution was elected, but the old constitution also said that president's term is 5 years. Vanjagenije (talk) 08:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes but the old constitution said 4 years regardless of the shortening due to a new constitution. You can see in older news articles that it was one of the introduced changes.--Avala (talk) 18:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

But, that is simply not correct. The old 1990 Constitution of Serbia also had 5 years term. See the text of the old constitution at , article 86. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

grandparents' death

His grandparents have been killed in the Ustaša Genocide - such an expression cannot be used in an Encyclopedia - you should be more specific about their death - were they mudered, executed or were they killed in a battle or during the bombing, etc. Jasra 20:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

not in a battle or bombing, they were killed in a massacre. one of so many - people were thrown into pits, burnt alive inside ortodox churches, or killed in places like jasenovac. his parents were from herzegovina, where some of the worst atrocities of ustashe happened. their only crime was being ortodox serbian. it is no surprise that his grandparents were killed - most of serbs from that area have someone in their families killed in the holocaust. the sentence says quite clearly - killed in genocide. that means not in battle/bombing, but deliberately executed for being serbian - quite widespread in ndh. Cicceroa 08:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Though I don't dispute any of your facts Cicceroa, the term 'genocide' is still one of controversy and its usage should be bannished from any encyclopaedia: I mean this about so-called Serb genocide of the 90s too. Because I am neutral over Balkan conflicts, I am often seen to defend Serb/Yugoslav actions in the 90s, at the same time, I have to be fair towards all parties. The nature of Genoicde is satirical entire of itself. The person who coined the term was a jew in the aftermath of World War II to describe the holocaust. Geno- taken from Greek and -cide from latin (to kill), everybody knows this now. In an actual genocide, you don't let a single person go, nor do you stop the atrocity when war has ended, your drive is to finish the job and your own life is not worth continuation should you fail. Only the global elite can try war criminals for genocide on the grounds that they "murdered members of a religious group" or "temporarily created inhumane conditions for an ethnic group" (so we should accuse Americans of genocide after they bomb a market in Baghdad because three of the victims supported the same football team; football=religion to fanatics; members of a religious group are killed; America=Genocide), or perhaps having more than one member of a nationality in the same prison in California and running the heating a mere 4 degrees too warm for half an hour in the afternoon=inhumane conditions for an ethnic group); it is a joke, the term 'genocide'. If the gen- was really subject to -cide, Mr.Tadic would not be here himself (unless his parents declared themselves Croatian in which case he still wouldn't be in the same place he is now.) Celtmist 1 Apr 2006

Ustasha crimes are considered a chapter of Holocaust, in fact the most henious, if not the most well known. The genocide was downplayed in Tito's time - quite the opposite happenes now, when massacre of several thousand prisoners in Srebrenica is proclaimed genocide. Certainly, claim that Ustasha genocide was genocide is far less contraversial, since Holocaust is the prime example of genocide. Maybe one should say that his grandparents were victims of Holocaust. However, Ustashe played an enthusiastic role in this, and their role should be underlined - they died in Holocaust, as victims of Ustasha's. Cicceroa 11:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the phrasing should be dispute, only the accuracy. It is a quality of encyclopedias to be concrete and precise about something. Saying that the Ustaše killed Tadić's grandparents is about as precise as saying that they were killed in WWII, and only a bit more precise than saying that they were killed in one of the world wars in the 20th century. Combined with the fact that this is mentioned in the lead section, one can't conclude anything other than lack of any knowledge about what it means to edit an encyclopedia on part of the person who wrote that. --Joy 12:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Tadic a Croat

It is always sad to hear of what happened on both sides in ww2. The Chetniks and Ustashe not only killed other ethnic groups who wouldn't join them but their own people. In the case of Mr Tadic whos last name is of Croat origin without doubt I can understand him being very anti Croat because of what happened to his grandparents. This sort of story was also common in Dalmatia where Ustashe killed Croats...SAD BUT TRUE..

This is a good lesson that the Chetniks and Ustashe were an evil minority hell bent on distruction and nobody stood in the way, not even own people...anyone who says iam wrong must be crazy.

I think death of Yugoslav Partizan war hero Bosko Buha (ethnic Serb)sums this up, he was killed by Serbian Chetniks...see what i mean..killed by own blood.

Evergreen Montenegro1 02:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt anyone should disagree Evergreen. Celt 16 Apr 2006

We can add partisans to that list as well Krakas 01:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Not a place for such discussion, but bringing down the Chetniks to the same level as Ustashe and paralel their incomparable crimes is at least malicious. And should be forbidden by International law, like Jews did for crimes over their people. Chetniks were sometimes brutal soldiers fighting the greater part of WW2 against Germans, and the other part of war against domestic enemies on the same side as Germans, while Ustashe held concentration camps which had several hundred thousands Serbs, Romas and Jews dead (see article for an example). --213.244.209.253 (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Nomenclature

I believe the use of the title professor is problematic. While in Serbia high school-level instructors are referred to as "professors," this is not the case in the United States, where it is reserved for those with a doctoral degree. Thus, unless Tadic holds a PhD degree in psychology--which I don't believe he does--the use of the term may be misleading to native speakers. This is further compounded by the use of the term gymnasium, which, in English, denotes a gymnastics hall--or gym, for short--whereas in Serbian, it refers to an ordinary high school, in the U.S. sense of the word. Therefore, I believe it may be better to put the word gymnasium in parentheses and replace professor with teacher.

Not only does a person have to have a phd to call him/herself a professor, he also has to actually teach at a collage, or other institution of higher learning Krakas 01:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Tadic can't be considered from Bosnia and Herzegovina because lived there couple of years of his life.

Great Article about Tadic

I like this article in whole, especially the truth about his family members, and letting the world know what lies behind so called "croatian democracy". There were always a minority between croatian people (ustasas, hdz, etc.) that were spreading hostility and evil towards their south slavic brothers. Now they're dying out, and will probably dissappear totally soon, that's a fact. Still, there'are always some "leftovers" from the evil forces, who are even dare to write on the pages of this beautiful and neat encyclopedia. Anyway, their broken "gebbels" propaganda is finished, it's dead forever; On the contrary, a strong will of renewed south slav brotherhood is raising again between all south slavic peoples, and their new victory over the demons from the past is coming very soon..

Someone should put a picture of Tadic where he is posing in front of a serbian flag, like all the other presidents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.34.178 (talk) 12:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Putin

Putin has not given support to Tadic. The page mis-cites a source where it says that Putin told Tadic happy birthday. (LAz17 (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)).

..and congratulates on his future presidency. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

He did not congratulate him on his future presidency. That article is in Serbian, so you can't read it I suppose? At any rate, here is the english translation of it, http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=01&dd=15&nav_id=46942 It is clear that Putin did not give support for Tadic in the elections. This is just a false insert into the article so that Tadic would get more votes for the current election and election run-off. (LAz17 (talk) 16:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)).

PaxEquilibrium is right. Stop removing the information. --Avala (talk) 16:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

He is not right. That serbian article says nothing future presidency, and the english translation further proves my point. (LAz17 (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)).

I have read the article and it does express Putin's support to Boris Tadic and wishes him all the best in the future in his job (his job is the President of Serbia). Now I don't think Putin ment "I wish you all the best until the election" when he said in the future. --Avala (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

He did not say that. He said told Tadić all the best in his activities for “the good of our friends, Serbia.” It is no secret that Tadić's goals are not to bring Serbia closer to Russia but to the EU. Putin does not support him. He just said a couple friendly sentances, just like when Kostunica congratulates the Muslims or Jews for their holiday... it does not mean that he supports them, it's just a few friendly words. (LAz17 (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)).

Infobox

Would you just as readily call Gordon Brown Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in his infobox? No, Would you call the US National Security Advisor the Assistant to the President of the United States of America for National Security Affairs? That is why was use the most common and shortened form. Numbers aren't used for the majority of infoboxes now and it is extremely misleading to label Milutinović as his predecessor when there are FOUR people who served after him. Acting or not, his predecessor is Marković. Therequiembellishere (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not use the numbers? It is a lot better when you know if he is the 1st, 2nd or 3rd president. If not better, it's easier to find your way around here. Baks (talk) 14:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen the pages of officeholders? Especially HoS and HoGs. In any case, this was fought over with Avala a little and they independently agreed not to use them. Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a big difference between Acting President and President of Serbia. --Baks (talk) 17:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that's kind of thee point. Therequiembellishere (talk) 17:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Failed GA

This article has quite a lot of problems that need to be addressed.

• Lead needs to be expanded to provided a concise and comprehensive summary of the article. At the moment, the lead is very short and does not cover the important details of Tadic's career such as his policies/ideologies/achievements but rather contains the exact date of his swearing in etc. There is no need to say that he is a member of his party. Clearly, since he is the leader of an organisation, he must be a member
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Dates need to be formatted. Some years are wikilinked, some are lot. I see "January 15" and then "15 January" and also placed where there are commas before the year, but others where there are not
  • Fixed all dates in the article as suggested (apart from the infobox which has different style).--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• I think it would be good to state the years of his ministry in telecommunications and defense. For a layman, they might see "FR Yugoslavia" and think it meant "former Yugoslavia" before it broke up or something.
  • Fixed. Now it says Minister of Defence of Serbia and Montenegro In office 17 March 2003 – 16 April 2004 and Federal Minister of Telecommunications of Yugoslavia In office 4 November 2000 – 17 March 2003.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Lots of "Boris Tadic" everywhere. After the first time, simply refer to him as "Tadic"
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• " His father, Ljubomir Tadić, a philosopher of renown descent from Montenegro from the Pivans Herzegovinian clan who is a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts." needs fixing - grammar
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• ARe his parents still philosophers and psychologists - or are they retired.
  • His father is still active (when do philosophers retire?) and his mother is retired I believe.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• his grandparents should be moved to the start of the family bakground since they were killed in WW2. Also can it be explained why they were killed
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• "Liberation" should be in italics as it is the name, not in quotes, else it is a POV mocking the name of the newspaper
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• A large problem of the article is a massive lack of sources and also that there are many one-line paragraphs
  • Fixed & fixed. Article now has a source for all the information. Personal life and info about parents is sourced from refs 6 and 7 (Biography & Živeli smo skromno) even though I didn't put a ref link at the end of the every sentence. --Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• What did Tadic do in his teenage years? We skip straight to his uni graduation
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• What dissident activities did he do to get into political trouble
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• "Until 2003, Boris Tadić worked at the Faculty of Drama at the University of Belgrade as a lecturer of political advertising." - he trained in psych, so this career move happen? The para before said that he worked as a whole pile of other things.
  • He didn't lecture drama but political advertising which for me is rather perfect thing for a politician (political) and a psychologist(advertising).--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• "After the Yugoslav Wars, Tadić advocated reform and Westernisation in the Balkans." - needs to be put in context. Tadic has not been introduced as a politician yet. In what role did he do this advocacy? As a private citizen?
  • Removed that sentence as it was indeed odd as a standalone sentence.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Do we have info on his motivation for joining politics?
  • Not that I know.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• The Center for Modern SKills seems to cut randomly into the politics section. What does this have to do with the Democratic Party and its policy. Nothing much is included in his rise in the politiical ranks during the Milosevic era. What jobs did he have within the party? How can he go straight into a cabinet post after the downfall of Milosevic?
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• What policies did he implement in telecommunications and defense? None are given
  • Policy maker is the prime minister and not the minister in the government so he did not implement any ideas of his own.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• The presidency says he defeated Nikolic in 2004. Who was the incumbent and why wasn't he running? Was Tadic from the same side as his predecessor. What happened in the campaign. What did Tadic propose and how was he different from Nikolic
  • There was no incumbent. The predecessor Milutinovic was a Milosevic pawn and was already long time arrested and after him there was a charade of acting presidents until 2004. His difference to Nikolic is thoroughly explained in 2008 election which has the same runners.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• "repeatedly crashed his vehicle into presidential motorcade" - did he manage to crash, reverse a long way, accelerate in, crash again, etc, etc? sources
  • Fixed. He was driving drunk but there is little information about the accident itself.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Did Tadic organise the Montenegro referendum or was it already scheduled before he came to power? Did he get criticised for not cancelling the referendum? Details needed. A breakup of a country is a big thing for its leader
  • Tadic as a President of Serbia had no influence on Montenegro. It was agreed and held in Montenegro. He could not cancel the referendum as he has no powers in Montenegro. Serbia and Montenegro was a state union of two equal republics. Serbia had no power over Montenegro or vice-vers. Boris Tadic is the leader of Serbia not the state union so it was a big thing for Svetozar Marovic not him.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Nothing abou tKosovo negotiations in the first term section.
  • He did not participate in negotiations, there was a team created to negotiate in the name of Serbia.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Many one-line paragraphs about many events, these need to be tied together to show how Tadic's rule evovled
  • They are now only in the section of his presidential activities.--Avala (talk) 20:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• "terrorists" is a POV word. It cannot be used in Misplaced Pages's voice. It should be stated that he is referring to KLA fighters or whoever they are
  • These people were sentenced to prison because of terrorism so it's not POV but a fact. They broke out of prison in order to resume their activities. --Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Is domestic policy important in Serbia. Also, it says pro-Western but says nothing about NATO or EU explicitly. What is the Serbian attitude towards joining these orgs?
  • Domestic policy is mostly in the hands of the Government. President represents Serbia abroad while his position on domestic level is rather ceremonial.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• The election campaign is undue weight compared to the first term of action policy work
  • It was a much more important campaign. His first term was in Serbia and Montenegro so he was just president on the level of the republic (Serbia) not the head of state (Serbia and Montenegro). In 2008 the elections were held for the new head of state.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Need to explain what the consitiutional change did to necessitate an early election
  • Well if the new constitution is adopted elections on all levels are called according to constitutional law. There isn't any other information on this that we can add.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• People's Office section needs to be in the first term
  • It's his general policy spanned through both terms. Introduction of people's office is his idea. --Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• The Advisors section is unusual. Are advisors more important than ministers? Because the ministers are not mentioned.
  • Ministers are in the Government. President is not the head of Government, it's the Prime Minister. President has personal advisors.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Isn't the ideology and policies of his advisors more important than what they did in the past? Since it is about Tadic and his policies
  • It's more important to have background info in order to know who are the people he chose to advise him. They are not that strong and important to have some special policies and ideologies of their own. --Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Recurring themes

• Lack of sources, one line paragraphs, the article does not combine its sentences into well structured thematic sections
  • Fixed. One line paragraphs are now in the section about his presidential activities only.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Sources need to be filled in properly. Need to not use "Boris Tadic" everywhere and style conventions need to be used in a consistent manner
  • Fixed.--Avala (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Blnguyen (bananabucket) 23:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Victory

I added this stunning victory in the parliamentary contest: Boris Tadic claimed victory in parliamentary elections, on May 12, 2008, despite a challenge from nationalist groups. His "For a European Serbia" alliance spearheaded by the DS was set to secure 39% of the vote. Specifically, his Coalition for European Serbia, held 38% of the vote, for 103 seats, while Tomislav Nikolic's Serbian Radical Party held 29%, or 77 seats, CeSID. Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica's Democratic Party of Serbia held 11.3%, or 30 seats.cnn.com, Serbia's pro-West president claims election victoryafp.google.com, Serbia's pro-European bloc claims shock poll win --Florentino floro (talk) 06:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

major problem with organization

I think that it would be much more useful to put the persidents views together into topics, not into timelines when he said what. For example, we could have a whole section on bosnia and herzegovina, and whatnot. (LAz17 (talk) 15:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)).

Putin stuff

I saw the AN/I thread so I thought I'd throw in a WP:3O concerning the matter.

I think that too much has been read into the Putin's letter. The source is a boring, routine agency news, saying that Putin congratulated 50th birthday to Tadić and sent him and Serbian people good wishes, looking forward for future cooperation blah blah. Connecting the news, and the fact that it happened in the eve of elections is a WP:SYNTH, plain and simple. I don't recall a fuss had been made about the letter. Get a couple of sources which reasonably interpreted the letter as an election support, and you might have the case. Written like this, it implies that Putin had offered a direct support to Tadić, which simply isn't there (and would be a fairly bad diplomatic gaffe uncharacteristic for Putin).

This is not an endorsement of Laz17's methods used to push the matter, of course. No such user (talk) 15:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. However I fail to note what in the article goes against what you wrote, the article says Vladimir Putin wrote a letter to Tadić a week before the election, in which he wished Tadić a happy 50th birthday and all the very best in his activities for “the welfare of our friends, Serbia.” which is quite like what you said you would it to say. It doesn't say "Putin offered Tadić the direct support in the election" or "Vladimir Putin officially endorsed Tadić in the presidential election in Serbia" etc. but just exactly to the point what happened, what he wrote with no synthesis or any original summaries and conclusions. Obviously there is no wiggle room in personal interpretation what does wishing someone "all the best in his activities" one week before the election mean, however nowhere in the article will you find such a conclusion because that would be against the rules. We let the readers decide whether Putin wished Tadic "all the best in his activities" one week before the election just because it was his birthday (though not the year before nor the year before etc.) or in order to endorse him. But as for this article I don't see any issues with WP rules, the quote is direct, referenced and important, if not for the election itself then to show the relationship with Vladimir Putin and Russia in general which is quite an important issue when it comes to Serbia and its leadership.--Avala (talk) 22:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

If the sentence is considered on its own, you'd be right. However, it promptly stands in the paragraph devoted to election. Placed there, it carries strong implications that the Putin's letter is related with support to Tadić; and no source made such connection. To go further, the source did not state that the letter came week before election -- it was a Misplaced Pages editor which "connected the dots", which is violation of WP:SYNTH. You say that "we let the readers decide" -- in theory true, but not if we have poisoned the well for them beforehand. There is "wiggle room in personal interpretation what does wishing someone ... one week before the election mean". I, for one, do not interpret the letter as anything more than a standard diplomatic birthday card.
Now, if we move it elsewhere, a question of relevance arises: every statesman receives a ton of such letters every year; I don't see anything in this one which makes it so special. No such user (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Well the date is there, you can obviously change the "one week before the election" with "On January xx 2009" but it's not much different. "every statesman receives a ton of such letters every year" - maybe so but Tadic didn't get a card of that kind any year before from Putin. "I don't see anything in this one which makes it so special." - that is probably because you are not informed on relations between Serbia and Russia however it is quite important. Like I said before if not for the election itself then to show the relationship with Vladimir Putin and Russia in general which is quite an important issue when it comes to Serbia and its leadership. As for the election part, now that we have unambiguous external sources that treat this as open support by everyone except the opposing candidate in the election we can elaborate on that too, endorsement by any world leader in the election of the small country is an important issue and as for Serbia it's double important because of its relations with Russia. However this is just my explanation for the talk page, everything that goes into the article must be from external sources.--Avala (talk) 11:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. But, what is worse is that the whole essence of the letter is about economic cooperation, mainly in the energy field. So, not only is the letter being misinterpreted for political purposes, its whole essence is missed. It's like saying that judaism is about being against tatoos, as it is a fact that tatoos are banned religion. Yet there this is a rather minor point compared to everything else that there is. This is what we are dealing with, where people decide to focus on one small point and extrapolate it beyond what it is about. It's focusing on the tree, misinterpreting the tree by calling it a bush, and missing the forest. (76.29.100.8 (talk) 17:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)).

"But, what is worse is that the whole essence of the letter is about economic cooperation, mainly in the energy field." - I'll repeat my call for the introduction of perjury on Misplaced Pages. How in the world did the letter concentrate on energy issues when the news piece mentions that in the very last sentence as Putin pointed out that the "special importance of the realization of joint projects in the energy field.". How is that the main essence of the letter? Usually the news agencies don't tend to put the most important, main and essential thing in the last sentence.--Avala (talk) 22:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to log in so my IP is there. Wishing someone all the best is common courtesy. People do that all the time for opponents and candidates that they do and do not support. He did not say "welfare of our friends serbia", it was "well being of a friendly serbia". dobrobit prijateljske Srbije... dobrobit - wellbeing, prijatelj - friendly. On top of everything, we do not have any other source that cites this letter. We do not even know if the letter exists, or if B92 made it up. I do not see any other news outlets publishing this completely irrelevant piece of information. Quite frankly the letter seems like a rather stupid story not worthy of enclopedias. As we do not have the text of this alleged letter, we can see that there are four points... birthday, political relations (kosovo), economic relations, and as part of economic - gas. The bulk is about economic stuff. Now, we do not even know if this letter exists, as I said just now. There is no first hand source. B92 is a secondary source - the original source is Beta - where they got that I have no idea, and on top of that we can not find where they got this. Further, I can't find it on Beta's site - can you? B92 for the most part refilters all sorts of stuff that other news agencies post. (LAz17 (talk) 04:46, 24 September 2009 (UTC)).

What is the point of what you write? First of all it was so common then please provide those tons of letters he received from other heads of state? Second of all this has got nothing to do with the article, just because you don't like the letter, just because you think it's common, just because you think that this information was inserted to help him win the election, just because you think that this is a fallacy on wikipedia, that help nurture more support for this corrupt president, just because you think we lie on purpose doesn't mean that this information shouldn't be here. You can attack the accuracy of information not the information itself and you have proven not to be capable of doing the first thing either when you lied how the letter was about energy issues, the problem you are now evading to discuss. You keep on throwing conspiracy theories at us, now the letter was made up. Just great. Did you listen to Gaddafi yesterday? Maybe you should go to the swine flu article or JFK article and expand them accordingly before you come back here with more conspiracies. Maybe Tadic doesn't exist either, maybe Putin is actually Tadic, who knows what we'll read considering that these theories you write here get more and more ridiculous each time.--Avala (talk) 11:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Your writing there is pure provocation, reason enough that makes it a disgrace that you are the administrator of serbian wikipedia. Does not surprise me though, as you are pro-west clearly. Your further incompetence is presented with the creation of a lit of belgrade metro stations, when every idiot in belgrade knows that there is no metro in belgrade. Again, I repeat, there is no primary source on this letter, and we do not have it. In the US there is a thing called "freedom of information act" by which one can access the full text of anything. Look into if corrupt serbia has this, and when you get us the real text then we can talk about this. Until then, it is all speculation. (LAz17 (talk) 16:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)).

I don't see why do you go on and on with this incoherent insulting rant. I don't remember you from the Serbian Misplaced Pages but it could be that I insulted you over there somehow. Either way I wasn't the one who gave you numerous warnings here, who started all but one ANI on you and finally I wasn't the one who blocked you here so you might wanna rethink is really everybody else so mean or do you need to change your vocabulary and attitude. Insulting Serbia, Serbian President and me is not the path to take if you want the issue resolved as it first of all has got nothing to do with the subject and second of all it is rude to insult other people, countries and personalities.--Avala (talk) 17:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

A happy-birthday letter to another head of state is hardly newsworthy at all, let alone some form of re-election endorsement. A "peaceful" Serbia is beneficial to all of Europe. The letter doesn't even merit a mention. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Please read the letter and discussions here next time. If the letter caused many media to write about it, all politicians to react etc. then I am sorry but you are wrong, as it apparently did deserve to be mentioned.--Avala (talk) 10:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The consensus is to delete, and yes, not everyone must agree with it. I'll delete it tomorrow or sometime. It will be put in the re-election campaign topic, which is separate. Cheers. (LAz17 (talk) 19:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)).

We are still discussing this issue and how to solve the problem. If you are here only to satisfy your urge to delete this sentence then you are doing a wrong thing. Follow my example of seeking a resolution. You first said how this is unrelated to the campaign but now you want to add it to the re-election campaign article as if it was undoubtedly an integral part of the campaign. Sorry but that is contradictory so there is still a lot to discuss here it seems. I suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Polling is not a substitute for discussion and Misplaced Pages:Consensus not numbers to find out how you can't avoid the discussion by holding a poll because for consensus it is arguments that count, not votes.--Avala (talk) 14:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You do noth ave to tell me that this is not a vote. It clearly is not. Only a kreten/idiot would think that it is. At any rate, there seems to be little discussion of any sort going on anymore. You are the stubborn one who wants to keep this at all costs. It's not relevant. I'd delete it completely. My idea of putting into the reelection campaign article was for the purpose of appeasing your obnoxious ego. (LAz17 (talk) 19:45, 4 October 2009 (UTC)).

Personal insults will not get you anywhere. There is no discussion because you are not replying. Deleting anything from this article while avoiding the talk page will only bring you back to the beginning where there will be many reverts. I gave several proposals on how to edit the article to satisfy everyone but you ignore that and keep talking about deleting things "completely". Well I doubt it's me who is being stubborn. There is no consensus on what to do, so I suggest that we come to an agreement.--Avala (talk) 20:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I came to the talk page before you did. You are accusing me of things that you do. I have stated what I have stated, and so have others. You are the one who is stubborn. As you can see I am not deleting anything, so stop accusing me of doing that - I did that when you refused to listen to reason. Well now you have reason. Your replies to what people have stated are sad, stupid and pointless. I think it's time to call for more third opinions. When we get 10-1, then it would be safe to say that it may as well be a vote. The concensus so far is 3-1 to delete. Now look ,while it is not a real vote, it is nontheless a concensus. Other topics have been closed on such stuff - like the geography of republika srpska krajina. Samo da znas, dok srbi dobijaju otkaze, tadic daje stotine hiljade dinara pederima - sto to nestavis u clanak? (LAz17 (talk) 01:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)).

More insults. Now I write stupid and sad things? Funny. Stop counting the discussion, there is no score here just arguments and you are the only one who wants an option that would satisfy exclusively one side, everyone else wants a compromise solution so start counting that way. And what are you talking about Tadić giving "hundreds of thousands of Dinars to 'fags' while Serbs are loosing their jobs" - could you explain it to the wider audience please?--Avala (talk) 16:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Please be constructive. Your statements thus far are clearly irrelevant. I am going to move forth with deleting this which is not encyclopedia worthy. Also, saying fag in english is very different from saying it in serbian. You use the word that is more racist, instead of using one like homosexuals, which is not nearly as politically charged as fag. The point of my statement however was clear, while thousands of serbs lose their jobs, tadic spends significant amounts of money to support these organizations that are overwhelmingly condemned throughout serbia. In the west they are not condemned, but in serbia they are. This is what is going on here. You are going against the people, both in serbia and in wikipedia. We by 80% overwhelmingly reject the gay parades, and along with that we reject this in the wikipedia article. Simple analogy, no? (LAz17 (talk) 05:39, 11 October 2009 (UTC)).

Yeah I am trying to be constructive, and to discuss how we should solve this problem while you keep standing at the same spot without intention to move to compromise a single inch. As for the other part, you were the one who said "tadic daje stotine hiljade dinara pederima" which is not the same as "tadic daje stotine hiljade dinara homoseksualcima" as you are now trying to suggest and either way it's libelous. I have no idea what are you talking about, what has the gay parade got to do with this letter from Putin and how can you make an analogy that because 80% of people are against the gay parade we should remove the information regarding Vladimir Putin from the article on Boris Tadic? Don't you have some kind of political forum where you can express your frustration with Tadić, and not on Misplaced Pages as WP:NOTFORUM.--Avala (talk) 15:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, we have a concensus here that this should be deleted. Don't worry, nobody is against you. I had the exact same situation in the page geography of repubilka srpska krajina... it got totally deleted, despite me not agreeing. You do not have to agree. Your opinion no longer matters. Cheers/Ziveli. (LAz17 (talk) 17

20, 11 October 2009 (UTC)).

I am sorry but speaking about your opinion in plural form will not make more people who agree with you that this article should be cut in part about Putin because "hundreds of thousands of Dinars to 'fags' while Serbs are loosing their jobs" or because 80% of people oppose gay parade or because you think there is a conspiracy theory to get this information into Misplaced Pages so that Tadic would win elections. None of these are arguments and as I told you before consensus is not a poll but a series of arguments and while my and arguments of others are on topic you are talking about gay parades, "fags", conspiracy theories and other nonsense.--Avala (talk) 14:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

A couple of additional sources

I also dug out this:

• http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/clanak/glas-javnosti-16-01-2008/podrska-kandidatu-ili-poruka-srbiji
• http://www.osservatoriobalcani.org/article/articleview/8846/1/218
• http://www.kommersant.com/p844610/r_1/Serbia_Gazprom_NIS/

Still too weak for my taste to be worth of inclusion. In any case, the letter should be marked as "ambiguous", "controversial" or like.

Actually, I think the whole paragraph is a bit patchy: to summarize, he received support from Hungarian and Roma parties, organizations of disabled people, Milorad Dodik, and (ambiguously) Vladimir Putin. Apples and oranges. Should be rewritten in more logical order (or at least get rid of the organizations of disabled people). No such user (talk) 07:37, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you please elaborate why should we call the letter controversial? Can you back up the claim, because we can't call it a controversial letter in the article if there is no external source that says how Putin wrote specifically a "controversial" letter. And I don't see any point in removing disabled people, they have their organization and they thought that their cause will benefit if Tadic was the president so it implies on the position of Boris Tadic on problems of disabled people and as we don't have much else to use for this subject then we use this. We can't write directly about his position on this matter when we have no sources that talk about what Tadic says about the problems of disabled people (I am sure there are sources but we just have to find them) but it doesn't mean we can't add the information on their endorsement.--Avala (talk) 11:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm short on time, so just briefly: it wasn't the letter which was controversial (it was boring), but its timing. Apparently, analysts and parties disagree whether it should be treated as support, and it was fairly veiled anyway. As for disabled people, there's plenty of similar NGOs: syndicates, LGBT, hunting societies,... I don't see a reason for that to be singled out. It simply ruins the normal flow of information.
As for Putin's letter, I still think it was too unimportant to be mentioned in the main article about Tadić (along with disabled people). If I didn't search the internet about it, I wouldn't remember it at all. There's already the detailed article Boris Tadić reelection campaign, 2008, where such details would find a better place. No such user (talk) 12:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Still I don't think that this piece of information is completely irrelevant and the only ones to shun it angrily were the opposing politicians from the Serbian Radical Party. And just because you forgot it doesn't make it irrelevant, the proof enough is that it caused a significant stir and made all the politicians in Serbia comments on this apart from the obvious significance because it involved the President of Russia in a different way than usual. Anyway when you get more time please read the rest of my replies on this page, I wrote multiple comments in the last edit. Most importantly please give your insight on how you think we should rewrite that in order to keep everyone content, which I suppose would be to keep the information but introduce the opposing views of the Radical Party as well.--Avala (talk) 13:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

And thanks for these sources. They are neutral external sources that allow us to even expand this content to say that analysts interpreted the letter to be the direct support of Putin to Tadic Osservatorio sui Balcani: "Tadiću je podršku uputio i predsednik Rusije Vladimir Putin" - "Tadic received endorsement from president of Russia Vladimir Putin" Kommersant: "Shortly before the election Russian President Vladimir Putin sent to Boris Tadic congratulations on his 50th birthday and wished him success in his further political career. Analysts in Belgrade considered it as indirect confirmation that that Moscow hopes for Boris Tadic to be elected for a new term." but surely we can add that the endorsement was questioned by the Serbian Radical Party (Democratic Party and Socialist Party interpreted it as endorsement and Democratic Party of Serbia wasn't very clear) as found in Glas article. There are more external sources having the unambiguous titlea Putin podržao Tadića - "Putin endorses Tadic". And according to WP rules we can't go outside of the scope of what we find already published in external sources. I suppose that we can now work on what we will include in the article, how will we word it. I would personally keep it as it is but if you prefer it that way we can expand it to say that Putin letter was seen as endorsement to Tadic by media and political leaders but was denied by the opposing Serbian Radical Party. It would be slightly longer but would perhaps give a clearer insight into the matter for an unaware reader.--Avala (talk) 11:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you missed something, Boris Tadić reelection campaign, 2008. As for your second link, it is a copy and paste from b92. None of the links are first hand info, and on top of everything this is a private letter whose text we do not know, so this is all speculation. Clearly some feel one way others feel another way - hence without proof it is not legitimate to be on the main page of boris tadic. Again, you are not willing to any compromise, and are very arrogant in your support. Your POV is blatantly obvious. (LAz17 (talk) 16:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)).

Yeah sure, I missed the article I created. Have you stopped for a second to think that this letter is not part of the reelection campaign? As for the rest, I suggest you read the WP:SOURCES to find out that media are a perfectly normal source, we don't need official sources only; as the matter of fact using only official sources to write about politicians would be very bad as it would leave no space for information on issues that the official sources would try to hide.--Avala (talk) 17:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

←I have relisted this article at WP:NPOVN. --Moonriddengirl 17:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Reflist and columns

Would anyone mind if we switched {{Reflist}} to either use "2" or "colwidth=" as suggested here?--Rockfang (talk) 10:58, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I think {{Reflist|colwidth= }} would be OK. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:03, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

proposal from the NPOVN

I am copying my proposal for the dispute resolution from the NPOVN page.

The dispute is not even close to be solved as there is no discussion. It keeps being diverted and it wont get us anywhere, except for getting more and more text blocks. I think the main reason for this is that we had no real proposals to work on so here I go first. The disputed text reads:

Vladimir Putin wrote a letter to Tadić a week before the election, in which he wished Tadić a happy 50th birthday and all the very best in his activities for “the welfare of our friends, Serbia.”

I am now, in light of new refs provided by No such user, proposing the compromise solution:

One week before the election, Vladimir Putin wrote a letter to Tadić, in which he wished Tadić a happy birthday as well as all the very best in his activities for “the welfare of our friends, Serbia.” In media this was mostly seen as support to Tadić and it caused a reaction from many political leaders in Serbia. While most of the leaders agreed that this was a letter of support to Tadić, some questioned whether it was only a letter of support to Serbia and the Serbian Radical Party representative disputed the letter and stated that their candidate was the one enjoying the support of Russia. Analysts in Serbia considered it as indirect confirmation that Russia hopes for Boris Tadić to be elected for a new term.

Let's try to move from here, OK? Any input? I would appreciate to read what neutral users have to say, how would they work on this, how would they try to solve the problem. Thanks --Avala (talk) 18:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Completely unacceptable. Completely. First of, this absolutely should not be on the main boris tadic page, and instead may go on the page for re-election, if there. Second, you are full of POV stuff. You say that most political party leaders agreed that it was support for Tadic. Most? What the hell are you smoking? Get off of your cocain or whatever you are on. Well, it's probably deliberate POV. Your last sentence there is really appalling, reaking with extreme POV. You ignore to mention other sources - like top officials in Russia saying that it is a great shame that Tadic won instead of Nikolic. Truely disgusting, what you are trying to do here. Look, we know you are a Tadic supporter. At least take your sick POV out. Here is a better solution: "One week before the election, Vladimir Putin wrote a letter to Tadić, in which he wished Tadić a happy birthday as well as all the very best in his activities for “the welfare of our friends, Serbia.” Some media outlets supportive of Tadic saw this as support to Tadić. Some questioned whether it was only a letter of support to Serbia, and the Serbian Radical Party representative disputed the letter and stated that their candidate was the one enjoying the support of Russia." This is a lot more balanced, not reaking of the stench of strong POV. Again, it is something to be put in the reelection campaign article, not the main tadic article. (LAz17 (talk) 04:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)).

References

1. "Putin pisao Borisu Tadiću" (in Serbian). B92. 2008-01-14. Retrieved 2008-02-16.
2. "Putin pisao Borisu Tadiću" (in Serbian). B92. 2008-01-14. Retrieved 2008-02-16.
3. Putin podržao Tadića
4. Predsednički izbori u Srbiji, svi spremni za prvi krug
5. Podrška kandidatu ili poruka Srbiji?
6. The Belgrade Battle

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