Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:15, 14 October 2009

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

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Recent edits

These edits, which accuse me of removing material, seem to be a complete rewrite, rather than a "tightening". It is entirely unclear what has changed, or what version has been reverted to. The version before this apparent revert, which I've restored, is not merely "my" work, but the work of a number of editors trying to reach consensus.    M   02:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I have restored material from an earlier version. I've left you a note on your talk page asking you to stop making changes to policies, and I'm sorry, but I can't have conversations in multiple places about this again. Lots of people are asking you to stop, and I very much hope you start listening to them. SlimVirgin 03:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Sorry Slim, I think that you're trying to game the system by associating entirely unrelated disputes with what you're trying to force here. Which older version did you restore this to? The wording that you removed has been more or less stable since the beginning of August. You're presenting your edits as if they restore a policy that I personally have disrupted, when in fact you've undone careful work that heavily involved a number of editors at this talk page, which you often refused to participate in.    M   03:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that you've been posting to the point where most people have left the discussion, and those who remain are likely having difficulty following which parts of the policy have been changed. This is not how consensus is formed. I therefore restored an earlier version while trying to retain most of your copy editing. If these problems continue, you risk having someone revert to a version before you started editing it. Please take seriously that people are objecting to your approach on multiple pages. I'd prefer that this continued on your talk page, because it's not just about this policy. SlimVirgin 03:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, are you threatening to undo all my work here because...? This page has been stable, and you are exploiting other issues to force your favored version of this page through. I can see nobody who is agreeing with you on this. Which version did you revert to, please.    M   03:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

This page hasn't been "stable" at all M, your proposed changes have been disputed by several editors, including myself. I suggest you find WP:CON for your proposed changes. Dreadstar ☥ 03:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The page has managed to survive for a while now, and is being reverted at this time because of unrelated disputes. The version you and Slim have been pushing has been disputed by a number of editors as well. If we have to start this from scratch, ok, but I very much doubt we need to.    M   03:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't call four days a "while", M. You are the one that has been pushing changes and you need to show that you have consensus for your proposed and disputed changes. You haven't done so. Dreadstar ☥ 04:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

? That's not what Slim reverted. Do you actually object to that change? I thought it was redundant with what is stated at the top of that section. Is it not redundant?    M   04:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what Slim reverted, the main point is that you claimed that this page was "stable for a while", when it clearly hasn't been - and you do not have consensus for your changes. Dreadstar ☥ 05:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It looks to me that everyone involved here has gone through the B and R steps, so now is the time to discuss and find a compromise. Everyone needs to quit focusing on process (reversions) and start explaining their positions.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 03:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

M, if you get reverted then seek consensus, it is that simple. Slim has done nothing wrong to you. If you want to edit policy and guidelines you need consensus. Chillum 04:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Where did I get reverted? SlimVirgin made the change, and was reverted by me.    M   04:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Your changes were reverted by SlimVirgin, then you reverted back. Don't try to play games, find consensus instead. Dreadstar ☥ 05:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Everyone here really needs to quit talking about each other and actually start discussing the issues themselves. This isn't helping generate consensus, at all. Honestly, with this back and forth, I'd be happy if the lot of you all just disappeared at this point.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it would be easier if all people who were frustrated with each other's actions stopped contributing. Here's a diff of the changes since the 5th of August. Unfortunately, the edits made by SlimVirgin make it difficult to see what was removed, and I'm still not sure exactly what the objections are. One of my objections is that the distinction between policy and policy page "Policies and guidelines are standards of content and conduct that have widespread community support and apply to all editors. Policies and guidelines are described in policy and guideline pages," has been removed. SlimVirgin has objected to this before, though other editors have stated that this is an important distinction to make.    M   04:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Naturally, Slim's edits "make it difficult to see", while your own massive changes to this and many other policies are to be instantly understood and accepted by all. Um...no. Dreadstar ☥ 05:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

This "he did that, and you did this" stuff isn't getting anyone anywhere. What is the actual problem, here? The quoted sentence above sounds fine to me. Is there a better alternative?
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Process

There are two issues here and unless the first is taken care of the second will be difficult. Policy and guideline pages affect the whole Misplaced Pages community and all of its numerous kinds of articles including contentious articles on the fringe of human knowledge where a small change in the wording of a policy can have a big impact on an article . For this reason policy and guideline pages must be edited with broader community input than other articles so that the implications of a word or phrase is scrutinized from many angles as can only happen with many editors involved . Any editor experienced enough to know this would be irresponsible to not establish a stable editing environment where many editors can have input. Not all editors are on Misplaced Pages everyday so part of creating stability is giving numerous editors time time to input. Changes should be made slowly.

I know it can be incredibly frustrating to have one's work disappear. I've been in that situation myself , but its common practice to revert to a stable pre edited version of an article then to work from there. Your work is appreciated M, and I'm sure you will have valuable input. It just has to be done with many instead of a few involved and slowly enough to allow lots of input.

Once all editors are on the same page with how policy guideline pages are edited then the second issue, content and changes can be dealt with more successfully.(olive (talk) 15:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC))

I agree with Littleolive. Maybe BRD isn't the best way to edit policy after all. I just got my internet set back up and from looking at the recent history, it seems that M (talk · contribs) has some good ideas (though I still think the language is too authoritarian) but this is not a good way to go about getting them implemented. causa sui× 17:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Process 1

(reply to olive) You assume that most policy pages are well-written, and that statements that have been around for a long time are there because editors agree with them, not because people are afraid to take them out since nobody knows what the heck they mean. I'm not so much concerned with my 'changes disappearing' as with the nature of the revert. Slim has been perfectly aware of these changes since they were made, and has voiced objecetions but has chosen to revert them a whole month later. The changes that (presumably) I made have been poked and prodded by a large number of editors. Most of them are the result of what was some very good discussion. Scroll to the top of this page, there's a section where SlimVirgin objects to some of the changes, receives perfectly adequate responses, and then is presumably convinced. A number of editors then make various points, the last of which begins:

PBS: "I prefer the wording as it is in the article as I write this. I am also very much against scrapping the difference between polices and guidelines. " wording:

The only people forcefully objecting throughout this process (ie through reverts) are Slim and Dreadstar, who apparently have issues with BRD-related wording.    M   20:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact, M, I'm not assuming anything nor should you. Policy pages must be edited with wide community input. Its that simple. No one or two editors should take on themselves the weight of making changes that will affect the entire community. From what I can see a revert was made to bring the article to a stable editing position. Now changes that are contentious can be discussed. if you want discussion and agreement on your changes ask for discussion and consensus . If you get that consensus make the change, if not move on to the next change. Simple. Both Dreadstar and SlimVirgin are following a standard process-related move to make sure changes are community approved. (olive (talk) 21:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC))

I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think that you're familiar with what's going on here. Have you looked at the changes? Surely you aren't advocating that every change to policy should receive widespread consensus - just the substantive ones, right? Should we start an RfC to include the text "there's a difference between policy/consensus and what's written in policy pages"? Could you point out which substantive policy statement was removed or added inappropriately?    M   21:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually I said, "changes that are contentious".. Unfortunately in a revert to a stable editing position non contentious edits can get caught in the revert. M, the point is not what has been removed or added inappropriately. Inappropriate is a value judgement. The way you are going to know what is inappropriate for this policy page is to find out from all of the editors here what they think that is .... to get a consensus. My opinion of what is inappropriate is worth zip unless its part of a consensus. This is still the point. No one can make unilateral decisions on a policy page .... just ask for consensus on your changes. And hey. No one is going to agree with every edit you make. Sucks rocks, but there it is. Don't be attached. Its a collaborative community project and its about group process.(olive (talk) 22:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC))

That's... exactly what I said. You and I agree, but I don't think you have all the facts yet. We've been discussing this policy for a while now, and working towards consensus. SlimVirgin reverted this, claiming that it was my personal position. You're still asserting that there were contentious edits that Slim reverted, rather than introduced. Could you point out which substantive policy statement was removed or added inappropriately?    M   22:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the deal as I see it. You added substantial changes to the policy as it was. These are your additions and there was a lot of text added in a short time. SV and Dreadstar were not making additions. They were hitting the reset button. These are different editing practices . One is creating change, the other is resetting to an earlier stable version of the policy so change can be created but this time more slowly so there can be more input.(olive (talk) 22:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC))

I wanted to clarify that I 'm not speaking for anybody else, SlimVirgin, Dreadstar or anybody else. This is how I saw what was going on, my opinions. (olive (talk) 19:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC))

Regarding the 'role' section, what exactly do you assert was added?    M   22:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Process 2

This is exactly what we've been talking over at WT:CON, and it illustrates perfectly the problem with the expressed preference to simply revert changes. This style of squatting on the "current" policy page is dismissive and creates controversy over nothing but the process itself rather then what someone is attempting to say. Edits are communication, which is why simply reverting them with something dismissive such as "not discussed" is seen as being so hostile. None of you are talking about what is being changed, you're simply saying that it shouldn't be changed. You should expect considerable resistance to such an attitude... as a matter of fact, people have been admonished and even banned from taking up that attitude in the mainspace.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand your point, but I don't see what is lost if we use the talk page to discuss proposed revisions instead of the policy page itself. causa sui× 18:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Changing something like a policy without first discussing it has also gotten people "admonished and even banned", so please remember and consider that too when getting in a huff about people reverting edits that werent discussed first. Consensus rules the day in Misplaced Pages, it is the one thing that is greater than all the policies and guidelines put together, it puts the wiki in wikipedia. If you edit without first talking, and someone reverts it saying it wasnt discussed first, obviously that means the edit is controversial and should have been discussed first and now needs to be discussed. Causa sui is right, nothing is lost if someone brings their proposals first here or to the village pump instead of being too bold. I think change is good and reverting for the sake of keeping what already is established and for no other reason is wrong, but explaining your reasoning first on the talk page is better. An edit summary, while it may technically be "communication" is not a legitimate alternative to a discussion. Communication does not equal discussion. Two-way street is needed. Be considerate of others that a change that is obvious to yourself may not be obvious to others, they may need it explained.Camelbinky (talk) 18:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Right, there's a balance here. Nothing is lost by using the talk pages, but not every change requires a huge discussion first. Not every revert requires a huge discussion, either. On the other hand, sometimes using the talk page really is required, and sometimes it's just nice to do. It all depends on the changes involved and the actors in the change process. Expecting all changes to be discussed is just as bad as coming in and suddenly changing the fundamental meaning of one of these documents.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Update

Holy crap, people, I may go blind. I see a lot of assertions that BRD always/never works, implications that policy is meant to be always/never prescriptive, etc. Good luck with that. What we're trying to do over at the (long!) discussions at WT:CON feels a little more respectful of different viewpoints; feel free to join in. For this month's WP:Update for this page, I think I just have to throw up my hands on this page and say there were "substantial changes". - Dank (push to talk) 20:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"Section X reverted to version dated Y" will work, once SlimVirgin informs us of Y.    M   20:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I diffed against 4, 6, 8 and 10 weeks ago, each one is a sea of red. For many readers, it will be easier just to read the old version (which I link at Update) and the new version. - Dank (push to talk) 21:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, with both of you. To add, it seems to me that people need to take a breath here. There's too much stress building up around all of this.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

One step at a time

I am going to add the following:

Policies and guidelines are standards of content and conduct that have widespread community support and apply to all editors. Policies and guidelines are described in policy and guideline pages, listings of which can be found at the List of policies and List of guidelines. Whether such a page is an accurate description is determined by the general community through consensus. Major updates to a policy or guideline page are typically discussed on the associated talk page, especially for controversial or 'core' policies, but it is acceptable to edit them directly.

to the top of the Role section. Are there any substantive objections to this wording?    M   22:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Prima facie I have a couple.

1. I don't like the boldface around "all editors". It seems a bit intimidating to me, and I don't think that's how we should be trying to win compliance.
2. I'm not sure what is being communicated in the last sentence. What alternative are you ruling out when you say that it's acceptable to edit policy pages directly? As written this seems a bit too obvious and I suspect that something more is being implied here, though I'm not sure exactly what.

--causa sui× 23:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: point #2, see the discussions occurring on Misplaced Pages talk:Consensus.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:20, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Before I look at that, I want to stress something that I don't expect to be controversial, but we have to keep in plain view at all times: the text of the policy should be clear to people who haven't taken place in the discussions that inform it. causa sui× 02:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It should avoid restating other policy, however. That's what links are for. In terms of this topic, it is my position that the discussions occurring at Misplaced Pages talk:Consensus ought to be occurring here instead. My point to start this statement is something that I have been attempting to get across there for several days now.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I definitely don't want to spend a lot of time in policy pages restating what's in other policies, so we are on the same page there. That said, I would like to see some clarifications of M's proposed wording. causa sui× 04:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don’t like the “summary” style of that opening because it doesn’t differentiate between policy and guidelines, it adds redundant material unless the rest of the section is stripped down..and what will it be stripped down to be? This “half-measure” proposal is insufficient, and I think the current wording is fine. I don’t see anything superior in M’s proposal over the current wording . Dreadstar ☥ 03:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

  First off, I think it's probably a bad idea to turn this into a poll, since I think M (talk · contribs) is open to discussion; we ought to assume that we can work toward consensus if we work at it enough. That said, I'm unfortunately inclined to agree right now that this proposal doesn't look like an improvement to the existing text. Hopefully we can work toward something we're all happy with. causa sui× 05:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Opposed to certain aspects of both the proposed and current tone at CONSENSUS, here at POLICY, and in the {{policy}} nutshell. My thoughts are at Wikipedia_talk:CON#Problem (and I don't see any way around keeping up with conversations both places, both pages are central to all this). - Dank (push to talk) 13:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I added a short infobox at the top of POLICY and CONSENSUS saying that the discussion is ongoing; I'm hoping that will get across the idea that this discussion won't be closed prematurely, and there's no need to get an edit in quickly for it to "count". If someone feels a more formal "disputed" template is necessary to get the idea across that we're not done here, we could do that, but I'm not a fan of using that template on policy pages. - Dank (push to talk) 17:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the rest of the section would be stripped down, if it is redundant with what is above. I'm trying to figure out the best way to start that section.

Policies and guidelines are standards that have widespread community support and apply to all editors. Policies and guidelines are described in policy and guideline pages,

I think that it is a good idea to start the section by distinguishing between policies as standards and norms, and the pages that describe them. Is this wording ok, or is there some way to improve it?    M   22:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with your points today at WT:CON#Problem. "applies to all editors" is okay but isn't my first choice ... my first choice would be something that is so obvious that people can't argue with it. Most of the text on many policy pages is pretty stable, but still, there are constant changes ... how can two conflicting versions both have widespread support and both apply to all editors? And if you say "They don't, only the right version does" ... which version is that? Also, many editors never keep up with changes to policy pages, and do okay for the most part, so statements along the lines of "you have to pay attention" are going to create instability ... "no we don't, yes we do, no we don't". There's also the WP:COI point I brought up at WT:CON#Problem ... we should avoid a tone that suggests that we have a vested interest. OTOH, we can easily say that any policy page with a long history and overall stability is better than and supercedes any other page that claims to cover the same material, and that's worth a lot. I don't have any suggested language, though. - Dank (push to talk) 22:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Although I'd prefer something more nuanced than "standards that all users should follow", I'm happy that the page seems to be stable, and I'll assume for purposes of the Update that no major edits are coming in the near future unless someone says otherwise. If anyone wants to import any of my suggestions from WT:CON#Today's edits, feel free, but I'll leave it alone until the discussion re-emerges, and I'll remove the "active discussion" template I added. - Dank (push to talk) 03:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:PROPOSAL

{{edit protected}} Please add {{shortcut|WP:PROPOSAL}} to Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines#Proposals, the section for WP:PROPOSAL. Thanks. 72.244.206.223 (talk) 22:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Done, that's helpful thanks. Perhaps also WP:DEMOTION for the section below?  Skomorokh  00:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I've slightly weakened this part re tagging failed policy, as it also seems common to demote them to essays without the failure tag. I've changed it to "usually" shouldn't be removed. Verbal chat 09:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I've been stuck into a mediation with some people arguing about a 'usually' in the WP:RS policy. They say it doesn't apply in any particular article or project even if there are no other indicators. I think it's fine but just warning that some people seem ready to war over it. Do you know if something has come up before over what 'usually' means? Dmcq (talk) 13:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy with any wording which doesn't imply an absolute, which doesn't describe practice and can often go against common sense or decency. I can see things can be more heated with RS as that's a content policy, but this just describes the tagging of (failed) policy. Verbal chat 13:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I think this revert, this edit, this revert and this talk page post may help to explain Verbal's concerns over the wording here. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Also WP:OUTLINE and many other pages that were previously tagged as policy proposals are no longer so tagged, or tagged as failed. Policy is descriptive not prescriptive. Verbal chat 21:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Verbal should be editing this page at all right now. As described by Gandalf, he is in a dispute that directly relates to the change he has proposed, but he failed to reveal that fact. Ronnotel (talk) 21:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Policy cat

I just added "All policy pages are in Category:Misplaced Pages policy." That's the way we've been identifying policy pages, because any other way is dangerous. If someone could claim that a page is policy because they changed the infobox at the top to say that a page is now policy, and people don't notice that there's a new policy page, it could start a big fight later on when it's discovered. Adding or removing pages from the policy cat (and the 4 main policy subcats) gets reported immediately at WP:VPP and WT:Update. - Dank (push to talk) 03:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Policy description

Currently it states- "Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are standards that all users should follow." That wording flies right in the face of IAR and the idea of consensus and common sense. Policy means "policy" as in "it is good policy to do such and such", policy does not mean "you must do it, it is a law". Policies are there to show what works in general and in typical situations. IAR and commonsense guided by policy and guidelines and being implemented by consensus is what rules the day, not the literal word of policy. Policies were not written by any Wikigod, and they dont cover every possible problem. That is why we have IAR. There are those who are vehemently opposed to IAR and the use of common sense, and they will oppose rewording, but I think we need to ignore them. A rewording I propose is "Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are of great importance in helping editors come to consensus on issues and problems that my arise during editing. While the spirit of a policy should be adhered to, remember that policies are not cookie-cutter solutions to problems and conflicts that may arise. Common sense should be used in their implementation, what works in one situation does not always work in similar situations. Respect consensus where it deviates from existing policy." That of course is the farthest reaching rewrite I could accept, perhaps a middle ground rewrite that is not so extreme would be preferable to others.Camelbinky (talk) 01:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)