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Per WP:MUSIC and WP:SOURCE, do NOT add any unknown or obscure band to this list. Also do not add ANY band to this list without a source to verify the claim of being "nu metal". Also, do not add ANY band to this list that does not have its own stand-alone article on Misplaced Pages. Failure to follow these instructions will result in your edit being undone/your content addition being removed. Additionally, do not remove any bands which are properly and verifiably sourced as belonging in this list. Thank you.

Misrepresentation of sources

There's a huge difference between stating that a band performs in a genre and that they play to a certain crowd. Multiple sources use the term "nu metal" to refer to the audience, not the band. This is an egregious misrepresentation of what is sourced. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

I'm therefore unconvinced you've even looked at the sources in question. They're unambiguous about it. Brave Nu World in particular is a book specifically about nu metal. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The books refer to late-1990s alternative rock in general. I'm not convinced that you've looked at the sources. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

No, it really doesn't, and the fact that I specified page numbers miht give you a clue as to whether I've read (and own) the book or not. There's specifically a section towards the end of the book that talks about artists that are not nu metal but related in terms of touring and the like (e.g. Kid Rock, Marilyn Manson), distinguishig them from the bands the author uncontroversially regards as nu metal, e.g. Hed(PE), System of a Down. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:07, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. These books do not say that Hed PE, Incubus, Snot and System of a Down are nu metal. They are discussed in relation to late-90s alternative rock. There are multiple sources stating that these bands are not nu metal, but rather punk or experimental music. By the way, do not threaten me in a user summary for removing unsourced content. You are more likely to be blocked for misrepresenting sources as you do. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 15:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

I'm terribly sorry, but the sources do in fact support their inclusion in this list. I was not threatening you by the way, merely noting that similar sanctions as last time will be put in place if you return to your prevous disruptive behaviour. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:42, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, a neutrality tag? When the intro reads: "The list includes bands that have been described as nu metal by professional journalists at some stage in their career"? That's pretty specific. The list consists exclusively of bands described as nu metal by professional journalists... where does neutrality come into that? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It's disruptive to repeatedly add content that is not backed up by the sources cited. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 15:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

I cannot make it plainer than this... Brave Nu World is a book exclusively written about the nu metal movement, written by the professional journalist Tommy Udo. This, being published by the independent, third party Sanctuary Publishing easily passes WP:RS. All of the bands being removed are explicitly included in the book as representative members of the genre; page refs are included. On top of this, there are further refs to other sources, which are also unambiguous. These bands remain on the list. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I've repeatedly pointed out to you, and you've ignored that these sources do not back up what is cited. I've never made any statement about the quality of the sources, only that they do not back up what is sourced. That you've ignored the very valid objection, edit-warred over this issue and assert a level of faux authority (kind of like a low-rent Eric Cartman) by outright telling me not to edit against your changes and opinion is why I am making an issue. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

Alright, I'll bite. Page 231 starts a chapter on nu metal essential listening; it includes SOAD's Toxicity (p.242), Hed(PE)'s Broke (p.243), Incubus' Morning View (p.243) and an entire paragraph about the Snot tribute album Strait Up, containing the sentence "Snot were a band who could have potentially been a huge nu metal/crossover band". You an't really argue with that... Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:18, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't really figure into the bands being classified as nu metal, rather than simply being included because they were part of the late-90s alternative rock scene and include non-traditional influences in an overall fusion genre. Snot is a case where they could have been anything in the eyes of any reporter, which doesn't mean anything considering that the band dissolved after a brief period because the lead singer died in a car crash. They were mainly a hardcore punk/funk metal band. Saying that they "could have" entered into a genre doesn't mean anything. Strait Up imitates the styles of the singers who were friends with Snot's former lead vocalist, and has nothing to do with the style of music the band actually played. SOAD are commonly classed as experimental and progressive rock, Hed PE are classed as punk rock, and Incubus is classed as alternative rock. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

What utter rot. The Snot quote clearly isn't saying "they could have been a nu metal band"... it is obviously referring to whether they could have been huge or not! The list is explicitly for "nu metal essential listening", even distinguishing at the end (p.243) bands that contribute to the "roots of nu metal" but are not nu metal themselves (Udo lists Sepultura, RATM, Biohazard, Infectious Grooves, Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Faith No More, RHCP, Boo-Yaa Tribe, Public Enemy, Alice in Chains and Primus; pp.243-246). There is also an entire chapter ("Nu and Not Nu", pp.200-205) discussing what the author considers artists on "the edge of the genre"; none of the ones you appear to be fussed about are included... they are all included within the body of the book, which, as has been repeatedly stated is explicitly about nu metal. Further page refs available on demand; the book is in front of me. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

And you ignore me once again. How convenient that you consider it acceptable to pick and choose which sources work for you, and to interpret the sources any way you see fit. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC))

• Also, since you admit that the citation for Kid Rock says that he is not a part of this genre, it should be okay to take that out. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 01:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC))

On sourcing

OK, User:Ibaranoff24 has requested admin interventon regarding this article, so I thought I'd make a few comments in response. Firstly, I'd like to point out a common misconception regarding list articles; it is perfectly possible for bands to appear on multiple "genre lists". For example, Dissection can happily appear on the list of death metal bands, the list of melodic death metal bands and the list of black metal bands, as long as reliable sources (e.g. from professional journalists) are provided. In fact, as part of a compromise following a previous discussion, we included the line "The list includes bands that have been described as nu metal by professional journalists at some stage in their career" in the intro to this article. The sources provided for the supposedly contentious inclusions here all pass WP:RS easily, but more on them later. A more important aspect of User:Ibaranoff24's edits to this article (and others) is that they do not seem to recognise the term "nu metal" as a legitimate genre classification... see for example deletion attempts here and here. However, these all ended in speedy closes as a cursory look Google Books reveals numerous published books dedicated to the genre, including the likes of Tommy Udo's Brave Nu World (which User:Ibaranoff24 claims I have been misquoting; of which more later) and Joel McIver's Nu Metal: The Next Generation of Rock and Punk. The term is also frequently used by Kerrang!, Metal Hammer, Guitar World (which has a whole book dedicated to it, including System of a Down and Incubus, two supposedly contentious inclusions, found ), MTV, Stylus Magazine and many others.

Regarding specific references, User:Ibaranoff24 claims that the sources don't say what they do in fact say. They initially claimed for instance that Tommy Udo was "an obscure author" whose journalistic credibility is presumably in question, despite having written for Sounds, City Limits, The Guardian, Uncut, Bizarre, Metal Hammer and the NME. His book Brave Nu World, (ISBN 1-86074-415-X, Sanctuary Publishing) is explicitly about the nu metal genre. Whilst User:Ibaranoff24 claimed "The books refer to late-1990s alternative rock in general", the sleeve of the book states "Veteran rock journalist Tommy Udo takes a long hard stare at nu metal through the eyes of the playas, the skaters, the whiggers, the wannabes and the detractors". Fairly unambiguous. Looking inside the book Udo makes is clear what he is defining as nu metal and what he is not. The bulk of the book is devoted to chapters on specific bands (namely Korn, Limp Bizkit, Staind, Linkin Park, Deftones, Slipknot and Kittie). Chapter 9 is entitled "The Second Wave and the New Nu Breed: Tomorrow's Major Players" (pp.148-199). It opens, "As well as major players like Korn and Limp Bizkit, nu metal has produced a strong second wave of bands who are less obviously in the rap-metal mould, and who appeal to a smaller and more defined fanbase." It continues, "There is a veritable plethora of second-wave bands, ranging from the good (Dry Kill Logic, Ill Nino, Papa Roach, (hed) pe) to interchangeable clones of the more successful players." He then proceeds detail a number of bands he sees as being the major players in this "second wave of nu metal", specifically Godsmack (pp.149-152), Static-X (pp. 153-159), Spineshank (pp.159-163), Orgy (pp.163-166), Papa Roach (pp.166-169), Incubus (pp.169-172), Mudvayne (pp.172-174), (hed)pe (pp.174-175), Deadsy (pp.176-177), Adema (pp.177-79), Apartment 26 (pp.179-180), Glassjaw (pp.180-182), Taproot (pp.182-183), System of a Down (pp.183-185), Dry Kill Logic (pp.185-186), Crazy Town (pp.187-188), Will Haven (pp.188-190), Puddle of Mudd (pp.190-191), Cold (pp.191-193), Ill Nino (pp.193-194), Disturbed (pp.194-195), Sevendust (pp.195-196), Coal Chamber (pp.197-199). Again, fairly unambiguous. It's made even clearer by the next chapter which discusses bands occasionally associated with nu metal but are not in the author's eyes (e.g. Marilyn Manson, Kid Rock etc.). Udo goes on at the end of the book to list what he regards as nu metal "essential listening; he includes SOAD's Toxicity, (hed)pe's Broke, Incubus' Morning View and the Snot/various artists Strait Up. The claim that the information is not in the source is therefore either dishonest or deliberately ignorant. Furthermore, this is not the only source being used... we have Joel McIver, Allmusic and a swift look on Google Books reveals others. Regarding SOAD, Stylus Magazine even goes so far as to state, "“But wait, these guys aren’t nu-metal! They’re too good!” So the cries will inevitably go, which speaks more to the initial prejudice the public has against nu-metal than to System of a Down’s qualifications for the genre. System of a Down do in fact bear all the hallmarks of a nu-metal band, but they play with such passion, complexity and bizarreness that many consider the label of nu-metal to be beneath them. And while that’s ridiculous, it is true that they are that far ahead of the curve—in fact, they’ve replaced Rage Against the Machine in my heart as the best pseudo-topical, bizarre, fucking rocking band out there right now. Not bad." The POV-pushing becomes even more obvious when you notice only a subset of sourced bands are being removed. Despite claims to the contrary, this is not an ownership issue, nor am I aware of any WP:CIVIL breaches on my part. The mentions are "blocks" were not threats merely an observation that User:Ibaranoff24 (an editor that has seemingly done sterling work on various film articles) has been previously blocked for edit-warring and sockpuppetry with regards to nu metal articles. Finally, I would ask said user to explain this edit summary... where has this been discussed by administrators? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

• My "history" is not particularly relevant to your behavior and adding sources which don't back up what is cited. And, by the way, I was accused of edit-warring and sockpuppetry. I never actually did anything that warranted being blocked. And referring to the articles I've edited as "nu metal articles" implies something that contradict what the sources actually say...and not what you imagine the sources to say. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC))

How exactly am I "imagining what they say" when I'm quoting them directly? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

You're not, actually. You're putting words in the writers' mouth by assuming that every band included in that book is a "nu metal" band, when perhaps they are only included because the books discuss late '90s alternative rock/metal, punk and rap metal-type bands, and a lot of these bands toured together regardless of what musical style they performed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 01:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC))

Did you read the (admittedly very long) paragaph above? It states on the sleeve that he is talking specifically about nu metal, not "'90s alternative rock/metal"... to quote again: "Veteran rock journalist Tommy Udo takes a long hard stare at nu metal through the eyes of the playas, the skaters, the whiggers, the wannabes and the detractors". I'm not going to cut and paste again, but I refer you to the direct quotes above regarding the chapter on the "second wave of nu metal"; all bands specifically mentioned in there are obviously inlcuded under the term, and ditto for all bands featured on a list of "nu metal essential listening". Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Stop pretending that this is an actual genre when there is zero evidence of this. These books cover late-90s alternative rock/rap-rock type bands. "Nu metal" was used as an umbrella term for any form of music that rock journalists couldn't easily categorize as rock, hip hop, or heavy metal. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC))