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Revision as of 00:24, 10 February 2010 editO Fenian (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers13,173 edits →Comments by others about the request concerning Mooretwin← Previous edit Revision as of 00:35, 10 February 2010 edit undoGnevin (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users26,261 edits →Comments by others about the request concerning Mooretwin: final rNext edit →
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::Sorry but I'm finding it difficult to find your request for this block or your request to maintain this block with in the bounds of ] . Are you seriously suggesting we block a user for 3 months for a 2 minute lag in between adding a requested reference and leaving a curiosity on the talk page which shows there willingness to engage in discussion ? ] (]) 00:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC) ::Sorry but I'm finding it difficult to find your request for this block or your request to maintain this block with in the bounds of ] . Are you seriously suggesting we block a user for 3 months for a 2 minute lag in between adding a requested reference and leaving a curiosity on the talk page which shows there willingness to engage in discussion ? ] (]) 00:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Please provide a diff where I requested any sort of block, or strike your comment. My quite correct point is that Mooretwin did not discuss whether his edit would be acceptable on the talk page prior to making it, he just went ahead and made it anyway. He did not attempt to come to any sort of agreement prior to making the edit, he went ahead and edit-warred despite his probation. ] (]) 00:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC) :::Please provide a diff where I requested any sort of block, or strike your comment. My quite correct point is that Mooretwin did not discuss whether his edit would be acceptable on the talk page prior to making it, he just went ahead and made it anyway. He did not attempt to come to any sort of agreement prior to making the edit, he went ahead and edit-warred despite his probation. ] (]) 00:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
::::You are the user listed as the ''User requesting enforcement'' here . So you maybe you be not requested a block out right but for a user with Mooretwin's history it was the most likely outcome. Why would a edit which adds a requested reference be considered edit warring? As I say I take a very low view of this request for enforcement, your splitting hairs over 2 minutes in between discussion and edit. Your highlighting an edit which lead to a discussion and an improvement of the article and is not even a revert . All that aside. I've made my point ] (]) 00:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


===Result concerning Mooretwin=== ===Result concerning Mooretwin===

Revision as of 00:35, 10 February 2010

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    THF

    THF (talk · contribs) and Verbal (talk · contribs) each blocked for two days.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    THF (talk · contribs) and Verbal (talk · contribs) each blocked for two days by AGK (talk · contribs).

    Request concerning THF

    User requesting enforcement
    John (talk) 16:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    THF (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding#Editorial process
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. THF adds {{NPOV}} tag (00:12, 3 February 2010)
    2. THF restores {{NPOV}} tag after I removed it (00:52, 3 February 2010)
    3. THF restores {{NPOV}} tag after Jehochman removed it, Swarm restored it, and Jehochman had removed it again (16:15, 3 February 2010)
    4. THF restores {{NPOV}} tag after Swarm restored it but self-reverted after my warning and request to do so, and after my request to THF to desist.. (03:34, 5 February 2010)
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Gentle warning by John (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (02:28, 3 February 2010)
    2. Second warning by John (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (20:31, 4 February 2010)
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Topic ban requested, as it seems like this will be the only way to prevent this user from disrupting the progress of this article. Consideration should be given to a broader topic ban for this editor if that is possible.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Swarm (talk · contribs · logs) was involved in tag-team reversions with this user also involved in reverting to restore the NPOV tag in breach of seeming consensus at the article talk, but to his credit, seems to have desisted and was good enough to self-revert when I requested that he do so. The two users between them made a total of 7 additions of the NPOV tag over a 51-hour period, in spite of being reverted by a total of 5 other editors, in clear breach of WP:EDITWAR and the article probation linked above. See also Talk:Waterboarding#NPOV where WP:IDHT seems to be in evidence on THF's part. --John (talk) 16:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)(edited to remove any unhelpful allegation of bad faith) --John (talk) 02:03, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    Informed here

    Discussion concerning THF

    Statement by THF

    • I regularly patrol WP:NPOVN. The severe NPOV violation in the lede of Waterboarding was brought to my attention on the NPOVN page. I participated in the discussion, saw no one justify the existing language, and, in good faith, placed an NPOV tag combined with discussion of the problem. The removal of the NPOV tag quite plainly violated WP:NPOVD, which says the tag is not to be removed when placed in good faith until a consensus is reached on the discussion--and as the talk page plainly shows (as well as the discussion on NPOVD), there is no consensus, and the weight of consensus would support the change to the page I seek if editors weren't being intimidated from participating by bogus threats of AE. I've made an argument about why the article violates NPOV and that argument has not been previously addressed in the archives--or, for that matter, on the talk page. Instead, people are trying to cut off discussion by abuse of the AE process to tell people not to discuss the matter on the talk page? I fail to see how discussion on the talk page of an argument not previously made is disruptive. What seems to me to be disruptive is editors threatening people with sanctions for using the talk page the way the talk page is supposed to be used. I've made no substantive edits to the article itself, much less substantive edits against consensus.
    • I note, however, that the current version of the page violates NPOV and BLP, since it falsely implies that living people have definitively committed international war crimes. The POV-pushing in the page is quite evident when one sees diffs like this, where the BLP implications on an innocuous opinion stated about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed on the talk page are given more weight than the mainspace BLP implications on respectable members of society.
    • I also object to John, LexCorp, Verbal, and Jehochman's repeated violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, and John's abuse of jumping to the AE process when there are intermediate steps to dispute resolution possible. I don't know who Swarm is, and I fail to see why I should be penalized for his edits or for a notice placed on his talk page. I note that there is tag-teaming going on here, and it's not by me.
    • Please note that I have not violated 1RR since the so-called "second warning," which I viewed as a bad-faith attempt to preclude reasoned discussion, which is further demonstrated by this AE request and by repeated false accusations of "disruption".
    • John's request reflects a severe problem of WP:KETTLE: Jehochman has violated 1RR and NPOVD multiple times removing a legitimate tag (which merely indicates the existence of a good-faith dispute, and there are at least three editors who have a problem with the current version), and John has violated Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Waterboarding#Dispute_resolution by edit-warring and escalating to AE instead of resorting to normal WP:DR procedures. This is especially disruptive, as Misplaced Pages is a hobby for me, and wasting time dealing with frivolous AE complaints is distracting me from time I could be using to improve the encyclopedia. THF (talk) 17:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Verbal has been wikistalking me and reverting legitimate edits across the encyclopedia, and well as WP:CANVASSing editors for five minutes of hate against me. I have no confidence that the resulting process in an encyclopedia where the view of three consecutive U.S. attorneys general is labelled "fringe" to avoid the application of the WP:NPOV rule is going to be remotely fair.
    • I further note that I voluntarily withdrew from the waterboarding article, but User:John persists in his violation of WP:BATTLE and is insisting on wasting a dozen people's time with this vendetta. Whatever. Play this childish game without me. I have real work to do, and if anyone here actually cared about building an encyclopedia rather than treating this as a politicized MMORPG this would be summarily dismissed. I'm not participating further. THF (talk) 12:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by Henrik

    I filed the original arbitration request, so I will leave an eventual decision to others. All involved could perhaps be reminded that the standards of editing on disputed or politically charged topics is high. So far, this seems to be a rehash of earlier discussions - while perhaps tedious, occasionally re-examining the merits of the current lede is healthy. This should however be done collegiately, and preferably with arguments backed by new sources. (Side note: There was an extensive collection and evaluation of available sources late 2007, an FAQ was written, and the lede has been stable since. The wording have survived for nearly three years, consensus for the current version is rather robust). henrik•talk 18:26, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning THF

    Comments by Simonm223

    This spilled over to the fringe theories noticeboard with THF taking great pains to occlude the specific articles he was concerned about. The concensus of the fringe theories noticeboard posters was that it was an attempt to mis-use the noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 19:48, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comment. The problem with US government views being treated as fringe go far beyond this one article: there are literally dozens of others where the problem exists, and I discover new ones every day. My discussion on FRINGE/N of the general issue was a good faith attempt to develop a corollary to basic NPOV principles to avoid WP:MULTI. THF (talk) 19:59, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
    The US government had, at times, held the opinion that negros count for 3/5th of a man, that runaway slaves should be deported from free states back to their "owners", and that the mujahedin are valiant freedom fighters. What they did not do, to my knowledge, is issuing an official opinion denying the status of waterboarding as torture. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comment by Seb az86556

    Interesting. I didn't know a mere tag is part of an article's "content" that one could edit-war over. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

    • Comment There is a very small but very dedicated group of editors who feel that Misplaced Pages confirming in the lede that Waterboarding is torture (something supported by the majority of RSes that speak to the matter) represents an undue violation of WP:NPOV because some ultra-conservative sources claim it is not. The vast majority of editors watching the article do not share this view and see the NPOV tag as being inappropriate. That's how this came about. Previously there was edit warring over whether to include "waterboarding is torture" in the article. This is the fallback position. It's basically the same pattern as adopted by Creationists when they went from Creation theory to Intelligent design to teach the controversy to Irreducible complexity. Simonm223 (talk) 22:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
    Thank you for that explanation, Simonm. No further comments for now. I need to think... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:09, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved Collect

    The decision referred to supra encompasses civility, edit war, personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith. In particular, however, the "standard article probation" states that NPOV is an important part to be "especially mindful of". The complaint states "tag team" without strong evidence thereof, and fails to demonstrate that THF engaged in any edit war, personal attack, or failure to assume good faith. It is, however, quite improper to assert "tag team" without solid evidence (multiple ArbCom findings in the past). In short, there is no case against THF here, and quite possible a reprimand for John. Collect (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2010 (UTC) (typo fixed )

    Statement by Verbal

    THF has now moved on to a completely meritless claim that "torture" is a WP:BLP violation, and has tagged the article such (removed by me). He continues to push this line and the already resolved, after much discussion, across many pages, NPOV claims. He has also posted about this issue on many forums where he has failed to gain significant support. This continued disruption is detrimental to the project, and wasting a lot of editors valuable time. Verbal chat 22:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

    He has also posted about this issue on many forums where he has failed to gain significant support. This is absolutely false. I've only raised it on Talk:Waterboarding and responded to a thread someone else started on WP:NPOVN. What wastes editors' time is false accusations like Verbal's, and there should be sanctions for his violation of WP:BATTLE in lying about an editor. THF (talk) 23:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


    THF has also raised this issue at WP:FTN, slightly disguised and with some other issues. I have also asked THF to notify the parties he has accused of improper behaviour above of those accusations (which are unsupported by evidence), and he has refused. Further, he has threatened me with sanctions (I'm assuming per AGF that this isn't a legal threat) on my talk page for posting here. Verbal chat 10:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by Swarm

    I know statements in personal defense naturally carry little weight, but I must strongly object to the accusations of tag teaming. There is absolutely no evidence to support this claim and it is an extremely serious assumption of bad faith. I have absolutely no history with THF, there was no effort whatsoever to coordinate tag teaming, there was no direct communication between THF and myself, aside from one comment in which he asked me to participate at the discussion page, once the already-ongoing dispute had flared up there (it was previously at the NPOVN). While the dispute still active, the POV template was removed multiple times with edit summaries like "remove tendentious tagging", "Nothing new, nothing to see", and "Unnecessary tag". Sorry if, in light of these actions, two of the editors who were actually disputing the neutrality both found these removals inappropriate and assumptions of bad faith. I had intended to leave the NPOV dispute behind me in good faith after I received the advice of uninvolved Lar, but that was before I was accused of tag teaming on AE without even being notified. Swarm 01:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by Jehochman

    I rather like THF as a person, but cannot condone the WP:BATTLE violations that have been occurring, as explained above by others. It's acceptable to propose changes, but an editor may not continue endless wiki-litigation in an attempt to get their way. Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions, but editors are not entitled to carry their personal opinions so far on Misplaced Pages. If THF will not respect the overwhelming consensus, then regrettable they would need to be restricted.

    Instead of continuing this dispute, I recommended looking at ways to improve the waterboarding article. It is bloated (>100K), has redundant and irrelevant content, and should be improved. Quibbling over the lede or a NPOV tag are not priorities for improving the article. In fact, the lede should be the last thing written. Once the article is improved, we can circle back and rewrite the lede as a proper summary of what follows. Jehochman 11:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by LexCorp

    I see the NPOV tag revert dispute as secondary. The problem for me is the behaviour of user THF. THF and Swarm raised issues on the waterboarding talkpage that have already been beaten to death previously in multiple ocasions. While both claim to have done so in a novel way. It is my opinion that all arguments expresed by them are sligthly rehashed versions of old discussions that do not bring anything new to the matter. Nevertheless, I and others initially engaged them AGF but it quickly became apparent (to me at least) the lack of novelty or RS to support their arguments. While, Swarm seems to understand that there is little movement consensuswise, user THF engaged in a pointless and disruptive search for support in the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. This clear abuse of an important wikipedia community tool was enough for me to stop AGF from THF. Once the Fringe Theories Noticeboard charade was over user THF came back to the waterboarding Talk Page with again another old argument this time claiming WP:BLP support. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that raising the same issues again and again on the Talk Page without bringing anything new to the discussion and persisting in doing so even when refered to the Talk Page Archives constitutes a form of disruptive editing expecially when the proposed changes are those that resulted in the page getting a probation.--LexCorp (talk) 18:19, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by Enric Naval

    Talk:Waterboarding/FAQ has stated since april 2008 that a) a "overwhelming majority of sources" agrees that waterbording is torture b) you should provide high quality RS if you want to change it.

    THF has refused to read past discussions, and, looking at the talk page, he didn't provide any sources. Note also the battleground mentality.

    There has already been many discussions including a RfC, and a long list of sources.

    I'd sat that THF was editing against consensus. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by cptnono

    (well after the fact but while others are still chiming in) I don't have the luxury of giving my thoughts in the below section like admins do but Verbal has a history of edit warring. My fun example is a few editors mentioning it here. Much like this, it isn't a place for general discussion. Admins shouldn't be pushing for the closing admin to change his mind for a two day ban that appears to be warranted on a user that should know better by now.Cptnono (talk) 15:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning THF

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • The merits of either view in/side to the dispute over whether the template belongs on the article are of little relevance to a conduct complaint. But it is clear that there are merits to both sides; and therefore that resolving the disagreement by reversion is flat-out edit warring. On a contested topic such as this one, that's not on.

      So THF and Verbal, who both reverted the template out of or into the article twice or more, are each blocked for two days. If they edit war again, they'll be banned from the topic. John and Jehochman are both in the clear—I class one reversion as bold collaboration, not revert warring. With respect to THF's argument that he was patrolling the article as a neutral party and further to a NPOVN thread: if you care enough to revert the template back in four times over, then you probably aren't uninvolved. Once you were reverted twice, you should have taken it to the talk page or to ANI and gotten some editors to back you up—not reverted a third and then a fourth time.

      And can we please reach a consensus over whether the "waterboarding is torture" statement violates NPOV or not? Somebody start a discussion or something. This isn't complicated stuff. AGK 00:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

      Your're correct saying that you are unfamiliar with what's going on here. Whether "waterboarding is torture" is an appropriate statement has been discussed to death many times. It's been the subject of an RFC, and there's a subpage, Talk:Waterboarding/Definition, all about this very question. Please check the talk page archives for additional discussions. The problem here is one or two editors obstructing the consensus by repeating the same argument that has been rejected many times before. They try to spin it as something new, but it isn't. (I reverted twice, by the way, which was not good, sorry I won't do that again. I personally try to uphold 1RR at all times, but sometimes I make an exception when confronted with tendentious editing.) Jehochman 11:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I too disagree with AGK's block of Verbal. From what I see, Verbal clearly had consensus on his side, and THF was editing disruptively. His argument about BLP violation was quite obviously meritless and was soundly rejected by broad consensus. The principle of WP:CONSENSUS is perverted when editors in good standing are penalised for enforcing consensus, and when the prohibition of edit-warring is interpreted in such a way as to protect disruptive "WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT" style wiki-lawyering by tendentious editors. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
      • But even in that case, the block on THF would then be considered punitive, given that THF had voluntarily imposed a remedy on himself - withdrawing from the article in question (which was especially clear in his latest edit summary prior to this block). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Not only are the blocks unnecessary, they are also spurious to begin with. AGK justifies the punitive blocks with the article probation. However, if you go against some of the long-standing principles based on an ArbCom remedy, you should actually follow the terms of the probation. ArbCom allows article bans or other editing restriction (only after an explicit warning for each editor), and blocks only if these restrictions are violated. I strongly object to this high-handedness. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I am closing this discussion because the two sanctioned editors are now appealing their sanctions below. Any discussion related to their sanctions should take place there.  Sandstein  20:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Nefer Tweety

    Not actionable.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Nefer Tweety

    User requesting enforcement
    Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:40, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Nefer Tweety (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    1. - If you take a look at some of the sources posted at the talkpage: (showing Omar is of lebanese descent/origin) and even previous discussions half a year ago where an admin mediated: (Conclusion, we must follow what the reliable sources say) Nefer Tweety removes that Sharifs parents are Lebanese and that Sharif is of Lebanese ethnicity while in the edit summary claiming "Sources do not say that Omar himself was of Lebanese ethnicity or that the parents were themselves Lebanese. This is already discussed on the Talk page.", this is a direct violation against the principle of consensus: "such as misrepresenting consensus or poisoning the well, is disruptive."

    Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)
    Not applicable. No warning required, but I want to point out that Nefer Tweety has been warned before about other things related to this: Warning by admin CactusWriter
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    block or bann.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Since the case ended december 14th, Nefer Tweety has removed Sharifs background: 1 2 3 4 5 times.

    The findings of facts and scope of the facts say that the dispute is biographies of Middle-Eastern persons who have been described as having more than one ethnicity and/or nationality, with Asmahan being the locus of the dispute, and editor Nefer Tweety being involved. If you take a look at the history of the Sharif article and the evidence presented at the arbitration case, the Omar Sharif article is a part of the case. and has been mentioned as part of the case: for example:

    I would also like to point out that Nefer Tweety has violated principles in the past but the admin decided not to act at that time:

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Nefer Tweety is aware

    Discussion concerning Nefer Tweety

    Statement by Nefer Tweety

    Comments by others about the request concerning Nefer Tweety

    Comment by Sandstein

    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Consensus is not a remedy. Please specify the remedy that you wish to be enforced. In the case of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Discretionary probation sanctions, you must also provide a diff of a warning as specified in that remedy.  Sandstein  17:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

    You are correct that its not a remedy, its about a breach of a principle, the text at the top of this page says that "if a user is likely to be acting in breach of the principles and decisions in a closed arbitration case" which no warning is required for (I think because he is involved in the arbitration case), and he has previously got a warning about his behavior. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
    While all parts of Arbitration Committee decisions are binding, only remedies are enforceable by administrators. See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy#Final decision: "Remedies and enforcements, once the case has closed as described below, may be enforced by intervention by administrators, usually in the form of blocks on accounts and IP addresses." I will correct the header of this page accordingly. If no enforceable remedy is linked to, this request may be closed soon.  Sandstein  14:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    Sandstein, when I asked the drafter of the case wizardman about the principles, he said that nr 1 "technically are to be followed by everybody, and if violated they are usually sanctioned by the community through a block or something else." so if someone violates a principle, specially someone involved in the case, where do I go to bring admin attention to that violation against the principle? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    Statements of principles in arbitration cases are merely restatements of policy. Their violations can conceivably be sanctioned as any other violations of policy, such as violations of WP:NPOV. But in this case, I do not immediately see how the (single?) cited edit violates the principle of consensus-building, or at any rate to such an extent as to warrant a block. This seems to be mainly a content dispute, which AE is not for resolving.  Sandstein  23:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Nefer Tweety

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    For the reasons given above, unless another admin objects, I intend to close this request as not actionable in about 24 hours. I'll take a look at the request below separately.  Sandstein  23:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comment: This noticeboard is exclusively for enforcing decisions of the Arbitration Committee. Those decisions must take the form of remedies which explicitly prohibit a given behaviour. Principles are not binding, and therefore do not do so. Admittedly, an editor's behaviour, whilst not prohibited by a remedy in a committee decision, may still be disruptive. But i such a case, the matter should be brought to a more general administrator noticeboard—such as AN or ANI—and not to AE. It is imperative, for a couple of reasons (no need to go into them now, as they are obvious), that we only action complaints filed here if they can be actioned within the scope of an arbitration remedy.
    Per Sandstein, this complaint is not covered by any arbitration remedy, and so we cannot action it. If the filing party wishes it to be actioned, he should start a thread at ANI. A closure would also have my backing. AGK 23:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    Also concur. This noticeboard has a very simple and narrow focus: enforcing existing arbitration remedies, to keep a certain minimum standard of conduct. And if we want to keep it manageable, it should stay that way. More general noticeboards with a wider audience are better places to deal with broader problems. henrik•talk 07:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    So closed.  Sandstein  18:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

    Supreme Deliciousness

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    User requesting enforcement
    Nefer Tweety (talk) 18:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    The remedy:
    Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is prohibited from making changes to any article about a person with respect to the ethnicity or nationality of that person for one year. Should this restriction be violated, Supreme Deliciousness may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
    Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Supreme Deliciousness is limited to one revert per page per week (except for undisputable vandalism and biographies of living persons violations), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. Should the user exceed this limit or fail to discuss a content reversion, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. SD is soliciting a meat puppet to do his editing on Asmahan where he is restrcited by Arbitration case.
    2. SD found guilty of meat puppetry and violating the arbitration restriction.
    3. SD places an open invitation to meat puppetry, again to evade his ban to which no other than Nableezy complies.
    4. Nableezy rushes to peform SD's edits using SD's specific references.
    5. Motion granting SD privilege to edit Talk pages of biographies with respect to ethnicity and nationality is voted down leaving SD with no such privilege.
    6. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 violations of 1RR.
    Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)
    1. Warning by user:CactusWriter "to stop editing Asmahan while on probation.", yet SD continues to edit Asmahan (3 times) in these diffs.
    2. Warning by user:Lankiveil told SD to stay "far, far, far away from the Asmahan article for the time being, if you don't want this unpleasantness to escalate further", yet SD continues to edit Asmahan (3 times) like this one.
    3. Warning by user:Lankiveil told SD to "avoid making any edits whatsoever that could even remotely be considered to be in violation of your topic ban.", yet SD makes those edits in reference to the nationality and ethnicity of persons: like this one, like this one, like this one.
    4. This and this warnings by user:Wizardman Wizardman explained that SD should avoid any possible borderline violations, like this one. SD makes the same sort of edits (3 times) to the Asmahan like this one.
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Indefinite Block
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    1. Supreme Deliciousness is acting up again. He's filing an arbitration enforcement request against me, when he is clearly the guilty party. He's become too crafty at fooling the arbitrators and the system with his "borderline" violations and endless complaints that are a waste of time for all involved.
    2. On 30 December 2009, User:CactusWriter filed this AN/I report against SD for meat puppetry. SD was soliciting User:Nableezy to edit Asmahan on his behalf as a way around his ban from the Asmahan arbitration case. SD was found to have violated his ban and was blocked very briefly and clearly insufficiently.
    3. SD is now doing the same thing again on Omar Sharif; he is posting an open invitation to meat puppetry that immediately gets accepted by Nableezy. Again, he is posting the references for Nableezy on the Talk page and Nableezy is doing the editing using SD references, again as a way around his ban.
    4. SD is prohibited from influencing the nationality or ethnicity of a biography on Misplaced Pages. Not only is Omar Sharif a biography, it was also part of the Asmahan case as SD concurs and again, SD is using a meat puppet to do his editing of ethnicity and nationality in violation of his ban.
    5. In spite of all the warnings that SD has received against editing Asmahan, from CactusWriter, Lankiveil, and Wizardman, SD continues to edit Asmahan in a way that influences her ethnicity and nationality. more specifically, he has been the reason for the edit wars on both Asmahan (and now, Omar Sharif), as was pointed out in Cactus's complaint on AN/I.
    6. SD is not permitted to edit the Talk pages of biographies to influence their ethnicity or nationality. This privilege was voted down here. The privilege of editing the Talk pages was taken away from SD and therefore his edits on the Talk page of Omar Sharif were a violation.
    7. It is clear that Nableezy is using SD's specific sources to edit the article for SD, as per SD's original request on Asmahan. SD did not have to repeat the request Nableezy; Nableezy is complying anyway.
    8. It is clear that SD and Nableezy have learned from the meat puppetry lesson of December 2009 when they got caught, and they are now doing it in a more subtle way.
    9. I ask you to please take action, this time to block him indefinitely, since he has been violating his ban so many times.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Supreme Deliciousness is aware

    Discussion concerning Supreme Deliciousness

    Statement by Supreme Deliciousness

    My only restriction and topic bann can be read here: Everything Nefer Tweety talks about in his enforcement request is made up. I have not gotten any further sanction from any admin that I am not allowed to edit any article or making post at any talkpage.

    I have not made any changes to any article about a person with respect to the ethnicity or nationality. I am not topic banned from any article and I am not topic banned from any talkpage. There is nothing in my topic bann that says that I am not allowed to talk about ethnicity at talkpages. Me making posts at talkpages is not "an open invitation to meat puppetry", I have not asked anyone to be my meatpuppet.

    I once asked a neutral editor to get involved in the Asmahan article and told him that it was totally up to him what he wanted to do, and although I do not agree with the block, I have already received a block for that edit, here:

    If you take a close look at all the diffs he has provided they do not lead to what he is claiming.

    For example:

    In Diffs of prior warnings:

    • nr2, he links to is an edit I made before the arbitration even started.(update, he has now changed that link to another one, that still is not a violation against my topic bann or restriction)
    • nr3, the first link I have already gotten blocked for, the second link was me posting at talkpage that I am allowed to do and the third link is also me posting at talkpage that I am allowed to do.
    • nr4, is not true, Nefer Tweety has presented it as I asked Wizard about a different sentence, nr4 when in fact, this was the one I asked him about as can be seen here: and later when i did an edit that an admin interpretated as a violation of the one I asked about (not the one Nefer Tweety talks about) I already received a block for it. (update, after I exposed this he changed the link )

    In Additional comments by editor filing complaint: nr4 he claims that "SD is prohibited from influencing the nationality or ethnicity of a biography on Misplaced Pages" having that sentence linking to my topic ban, - that is not what my topic ban says.

    Its just an endless of empty comments from NT, claiming I am behind the latest edit war at Omar Sharif when I haven't made one single edit at that article for several months while Nefer Tweety himself has reverted Sharif background at least 5 time since the case ended. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:18, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    • Response to comment by Arab Cowboy: Note This post was deleted by Arab Cowboy in this edit, and I have re added it here: If anyone is interested about reading more about Arab Cowboys so called "cleanstart" attempt you can read more here: and see how he after he created the Medjool account simultaneously continued to use the Arab Cowboy account editing articles and making posts at talkpages with both accounts at the same time and how he used the Medjool account to repeatedly violate his topic ban and restriction and how he used the Medjool account to defend his own edits he had made as "Arab Cowboy" at the Asmahan talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC

    Comments by others about the request concerning Supreme Deliciousness

    Comment by Nableezy

    I am not anybody's "meatpuppet". What we have here is an overly nationalistic pair of users. One of them brings sources to show why he right, the other just shouts No. There are a ton of sources saying the Sharif's parents were Lebanese, yet Nefer Tweety continues to remove that information. Such behavior should not be tolerated. nableezy - 19:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    The restriction of the arbitration case reads Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is prohibited from making changes to any article about a person with respect to the ethnicity or nationality of that person for one year. Should this restriction be violated, Supreme Deliciousness may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. Are there any diffs of SD making such changes to an article or not? If not this is simply frivolous. If SD, or any other editor, posts reliable sources on a talk page and I see it I may very well use those sources. This is not a topic I particularly care about, so I dont plan on hunting down sources myself. But if the sources are supplied, and I myself read them and agree that they support an edit, I may, of my own will, make the needed changes to an article. Nothing in the arbitration case prevented AC from doing the same, at least until this happened. nableezy - 06:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
    AC, you miss the point. The point is that SD is not restricted from making such edits to a talk page. What I, or anybody else, does, after independently verifying the sources, is irrelevant. SD is not prohibited from adding sources to a talk page. You cannot read the arbitration decision to say otherwise, it specifically says that SD may not make changes to any article about a person with respect to the ethnicity or nationality (emphasis added). SD did not do that. When Arbcom has banned editors from both articles and talk pages they have made that explicit in the restriction. SD is allowed to make these edits to talk pages. The issue here is the seemingly mindless campaign by NT to remove things that can be sourced to eight different sources. nableezy - 07:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    NT, none of the talk page edits by SD that you have listed are reverts. nableezy - 15:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comment by Sandstein

    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Consensus is not a remedy. Please specify the remedy that you wish to be enforced. In the case of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Discretionary probation sanctions, you must also provide a diff of a warning as specified in that remedy. If no enforceable remedy is linked to, this request may be closed soon. Also, please format the request correctly.  Sandstein  14:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

    I have re-added the above comment which was removed by your recent edit. Please edit more carefully. The request is still not usefully formatted.  Sandstein  16:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    The request has again been somewhat chaotically revised and the header structure seems to have been lost. There may be actionable stuff here, including ban violation by proxy, but the request is not yet usefully presented. We still don't have an enforceable remedy cited, and the numerous undated diffs do not provide a clear picture. It's not very clear, for instance, which alleged infringements took place after the most recent enforcement block or other enforcement action. I think I'll pass on this, but if another admin has the time to research this de novo, they're of course welcome.  Sandstein  23:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    I'll pass too. It isn't much to ask that the data be presented within the standard template. I note that at least one critical detail—the arbitration remedies that are alleged to have have been violated—has been omitted. I don't mean to be a stickler for procedure, but it really isn't much to ask that things be presented logically and as directed. I'll happily look at this again if the thread is tidied up and if all the information that seems to be absent is submitted. AGK 23:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
    Comment by Arab Cowboy

    This is yet another case where Supreme Deliciousness is igniting edit wars. SD was a primary party to a prolonged discussion on the Talk page of Omar Sharif in which sources of "Lebanese descent" were closely scrutinised by an admin, Sancho, and the conclusion of which was that Omar Sharif could NOT be classified as "of Labenese descent". SD's source that was used by Nableezy to prove Omar Sharif's "Lebanese descent" states, according to SD, "Published book: Encyclopedia of the modern Middle East: "The son of a wealthy merchant of Lebanese descent, Sharif was born Michel Chalhoub". It is clear that the source claims that Omar's parent, the wealthy merchant, was of Lebanese descent, not that Omar himself was of Lebanese descent. Admin Sancho had specifically told SD: "SD, avoid original research. Even the leap from "Sharif's parents were Lebanese", to "Sharif is of Lebanese descent" is going too far in an article about a living person". SD is very well aware of this directive from Sancho, so for SD to rely on the archiving of that directive to ignite yet another edit war on the same issue is indeed disruptive and is indeed in violation of SD's sanction on the editing of nationality and identity of a person.

    Also, the SD/Nableezy meatpuppetry collaboration on pushing a "Lebanese descent" on Omar Sharif, a living person who personally denied this alleged association/descent on Egyptian television (Nile Cinema) on 4 September 2009 (information I had added in September 2009 and which was removed by no other than Nableezy), is a serious violation of the principles of editing biographies, and their repeated reverts to this effect is a violation of the Asmahan arbitration remedy in this case. Nefer Tweety's attempts to remove the false allegations of SD/Nableezy was therefore justified.

    Nefer Tweety seems to be a novice Misplaced Pages programmer, they are doing their best presenting case, so it would help pointing out to them where the case is not correctly presented. The remedy that is in violation states:

    "===Supreme Deliciousness topic banned===
    3.2) Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is prohibited from making changes to any article about a person with respect to the ethnicity or nationality of that person for one year. Should this restriction be violated, Supreme Deliciousness may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
    Passed 7 to 0 at 19:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
    ===Supreme Deliciousness restricted===
    4) Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Supreme Deliciousness is limited to one revert per page per week (except for undisputable vandalism and biographies of living persons violations), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. Should the user exceed this limit or fail to discuss a content reversion, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
    Passed 6 to 0 (2 abstained) at 19:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)" --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Moreover, SD has violated the 1RR clause of the same remedy with these 5 reverts, all done within minutes of each other: 1, 2, 3, 4, as well as 5. SD had previously had no interest at all in Copt or Coptic identity articles, and his reverts of my edits on those articles was another example of harassment, stalking, disruptive editing, and igniting of edit wars. I did not have the time to pursue that matter further, however, after the WP:CLEANSTART account Medjool that I had created (to end SD's harassment and stalking of me) was blocked as a result of SD's yet another complaint, SD pursued the matter further on Arbitration Enforcement seeking additional sanction above and beyond the block, so for SD to claim that he had already been blocked for his meatpuppetry is defeated by his own previous actions.

    As Nefer Tweety correctly points out, SD was found guilty of meatpuppetry on Asmahan, and he is again pursuing meatpuppetry on Omar Sharif. SD distorts the conclusion of the prolonged and very tedious discussion on the Talk page of Omar Sharif that had been had with Admin Sancho, thus igniting yet another edit war between Nefer Tweety and SD's own meatpuppet, Nableezy. SD now has the nerve to file yet another Enforcement complaint against Nefer Tweety! This kind of ongoing disruptive editing and violation of the stated remedy (on both accounts of the 1RR and the ban on editing nationality and ethnicity of a person) cannot be tolerated and the Asmahan arbitration decision must therefore be enforced.

    SD's main aim is to silence every editor that dares oppose his biased POV and his pushing of a Syrian agenda on Misplaced Pages. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Today, Nableezy removes a perfectly legitimate source from Omar Sharif in favor of another that alleges Lebanese anscestry, in spite of Omar Sharif's own denial of that anscestry. This is destined to ignite yet another edit war on the article.--Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Today, SD again edits the Talk page of Omar Sharif, providing an unreliable source that tells a lie, in a way that impacts Omar Sharif's nationality and ethnicity. This is not allowed under his sanction. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    • Response to Cactus

    Cactus, as NT points out, the only difference between this sanction that was DEAFEATED by committee vote and the remedy that was violated in this case is SD's privilege to edit Talk pages and provide them with reliable sources in reference to the ethnicity and nationality of a person. It is therefore clear that SD has no such privilege to make these edits to Talk pages. You (Cactus) and at least 2 other admins, as NT also posted above, have explained the remedy of this case to SD with clear and stern warnings to "stop editing Asmahan while on probation", to stay "far, far, far away from the Asmahan article for the time being, if you don't want this unpleasantness to escalate further", to "avoid making any edits whatsoever that could even remotely be considered to be in violation of your topic ban", and to "avoid any possible borderline violations". Yet SD has clearly flushed all of you all's warnings down the toilet and continued to edit Asmahan and cross his other sanctions' "borderlines", including the 1RR.

    In reference to the same editor's violations, you were also too technical at least once in the past, last summer, when you stopped short of blocking SD on a 3RR count for edit waring. You are again allowing SD to get away with countless "borderline" violations as you choose to see them. Only a purely dogmatic person would only read the letter of those sanctions and not see the clarifications of 3 admins and SD's clear violations for what they really are. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    By his own admission today, Nableezy would not have made the nationality and ethnicity changes to Omar Sharif's biography had he not seen and used SD's sources, because Omar Sharif was not within Nableezy's area of interest. This clearly demonstrates that SD's edits on the Talk page of Omar Sharif resulted in changes to the ethnicity and nationality of Omar Sharif within the article. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comment by CactusWriter

    Here is my understanding of this case: An edit by Supreme Deliciousness on February 1 asks for changes to Omar Sharif's ethnicity on the article talk page. Two days later, during an edit war between Nefer Tweety and Nableezy, Nableezy used reference information from SD's talk page edit.

    The remedy against SD banned Supreme Deliciousness from making any changes to a person's ethnicity on article pages -- but does not mention Talk pages. Therefore this is not a direct violation of the ban.

    Nableezy was previously cautioned in December about acting as a proxy for Supreme Deliciousness at Asmahan because of SD's topic ban. At that time, SD had made a direct appeal to Nableezy. However, in this case, no evidence is presented that SD made an appeal to Nableezy concerning the Omar Sharif article, or that Nableezy acted on anything but their own volition. Therefore there is no evidence of a proxy violation.

    In a discussion on my talk page, I told Nefer Tweety that this does not appear to be a direct ban violation requiring action at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, but it could be appropriate to make a request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment to extend Supreme Deliciousness's ban to include talk pages and associated pages. — CactusWriter | 17:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Cactus you say that my edit here, you say that I "ask for changes".. can you please clarify how I "asked" for anything in that edit? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    Cactus, there was no need for SD to repeat the meat puppetry invitation to Nableezy. Nableezy had received the message the first time on Asmahan and has been acting on it. Even a child would have gotten the message. Nefer Tweety (talk) 19:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    Nefer Tweety, there has been no meatpuppet invitation, and I have already been blocked for that misunderstanding when I asked a neutral editor to get involved, and admin Cactus has told Nableezy that he is free to do what ever he wanted at Asmahan (which he haven't even done) and Nablezzy has also been editing the Omar Sharif article for a long time. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    Cactus, the point is that Nableezy got the message from SD and acted on it, making ethnicity and nationality changes to the article of Omar Sharif that he would not have otherwise made, as he admitted above. This is the meat puppetry. SD was directly banned from making changes to the article, and the administrators warned him against making edits that could be remotely considered in violation of his topic ban, and he did not comply and he made those changes to the article by proxy. SD has also violated the 1RR remedy as shown in the diffs provided by AC. Nefer Tweety (talk) 14:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Supreme Deliciousness

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Appeal by Verbal

    Unblocked.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    Unblocked by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs). MastCell  17:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
    Appealing user
    Verbal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Verbal chat
    Sanction being appealed
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding#Editorial process
    That is the arbitration case. I think you mean to contest the two-day block imposed at WP:AE#Result concerning THF, above.  Sandstein  20:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    Editor who imposed or found consensus to impose the sanction
    AGK (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)}}}
    Notification of that editor
    The appealing editor is asked to notify the editor who imposed or found consensus to impose the sanction of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise.

    Statement by Verbal

    I removed the tag once on Feb 3 and once on Feb 5, following discussion on the talk page, WP:FTN, and WP:NPOVN, which was all supportive of the well established, already existing, consensus (shown by RFCs, etc - see Talk:Waterboarding/Definition). The addition of the BLP tag, and overtagging across related pages, shows the abuse of policy that THF was engaged in. I don't wish to contradict AGK, but he says consensus needs to be established. If he reviewed the talk page, history, and other forums, they would see that consensus has been established on this point. I do not see how two removals of a unjustified tag, supported by 3 forums and existing consensus, over three days, is at all disruptive. No one involved found my behaviour disruptive (apart from THF who made many unsubstantiated claims against myself and other editors of good standing). I also do not see how this block is in any way beneficial for the project, and that there is no parity of action between myself, Jehochman (no block, 3 reverts of tag, no block required) and THF (multiple reverts of tag, pointy BLP tag, refusing to accept consensus, etc). I would also like to echo the sentiments of Jehochman expressed here, and would like to join the discussion at Talk:Waterboarding. Jehochman expresses the current consensus here. I also note that there is no 0RR or 1RR in place, so a sanction for edit warring with two edits, supported by consensus and discussion, over three days is unwarranted. I'd be hard pushed to agree that two edits in three days against the consensus is edit warring (note that isn't the case with THF and his WP:TE). I feel this is a misunderstanding on AGKs part and hope it is shortly overturned. Verbal chat

    I originally posted this as an unblock request, was advised to do this instead. Please see User Talk:Verbal#Blocked for 2 days. I'd rather this is dealt with quickly and minimum of fuss. I also not Jehochman was given a chance to defend himself (which is proper), I'd have appreciated the same treatment (considering the parity of our actions) via a notice or warning. As it is I've reposted the above unblock request which was procedurally closed by Sandstein. I'd also like to note the lack of support AGK has been given of his remedy in this matter in general. Verbal chat 19:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by AGK

    Comments by others about the appeal by Verbal

    Comment by uninvolved Ludwigs2

    Allow me to note explicitly that this block arrived a scant few days after I filed an enforcement request against Verbal for exactly this same behavior at alternative medicine (see Misplaced Pages:AE#Verbal). I have no idea why he does this - you'll notice that he didn't even deign to make a response at the enforcement action I filed - but I can say that I find his blanket removal of dispute tags (as well as his heavy-handed revert practices) and his aversion to meaningful discussion deeply problematic. His attitude demonstrates a degree of self-importance and entitlement that I find bizarre; as though he sees himself as the sole arbiter of consensus on these wikipedia articles, and refuses to accept or discuss any contradiction to his particular viewpoint.

    I think this block is appropriate, I hope it serves as an effective warning that this kind of behavior won't be tolerated, and I hope that further (more extensive) blocks will be forthcoming if he doesn't learn the lesson. Any other editors who see so little use for consensus discussions that they behave in this fashion find out (quickly and brutally) that wikipedia has no use for them, and get themselves indefinitely blocked. Why that hasn't happened to Verbal yet I don't know (and I don't care to know), but I hope that he gets his head on straight before it comes to that. --Ludwigs2 21:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    • This block seems to have been placed in ignorance of the fact that the "torture" issue has a) been discussed to death, b) to the extent that it formed the major basis of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Waterboarding, and c) has been supported by a solid consensus and (I believe) has remained in the article supported by consensus for at least 2 years. This is not a brand-new dispute; it's one editor questioning a long-standing consensus. That is permitted, of course, but the placement or removal of the POV tag needs to be seen in context of the longstanding consensus. As a matter of general practice, we don't condone any editor who dislikes an article's wording to slap tags all over it - otherwise 90% of our articles would be tagged.

      Additionally, the blocks (both of Verbal and THF) were punitive; THF had already conceded the point and withdrawn at the time the blocks were placed, as best I can tell. Neither block has any preventive value that I can discern; the edit war seems to have ended about 48 hours before the block was placed. This block should be overturned, as should THF's. I will await further explanation in support of this block's preventive value; absent such explanation, I will overturn it or support another admin's overturning it. MastCell  21:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Mastcell, there are no 'brand new' disputes on wikipedia (at least none that I've run across), and consensus is always subject to potential change. My frustration with Verbal is not due to his perspective - I suspect that 95 times out of 100 my own perspective is not that far from his (despite his apparent beliefs to the contrary). My frustration with Verbal stems from his attitude, which is clearly such that he doesn't feel any obligation to talk to, listen to, discuss with, or otherwise engage any editor he happens to disagree with. Yeah, I imagine it gets old having to explain the same thing to different people repeatedly; unfortunately, that's a factor of wikipedia life. Removing dispute tags and reverting changes without discussion is problematic because (1) it destroys any possibility of fruitful discussion, and (2) the experience will almost inevitably be viewed as an attack rather than as the outcome of previous consensus discussions. I mean really... it's the procedural equivalent of "We talked about that before you got here, so shut up."
    With respect to your other point - if an editor feels that there is an issue with neutrality or verifiability (or a violation of any other content-related policy on wikipedia), s/he has an obligation to tag it so that the content dispute is visible to casual readers. It doesn't matter whether s/he's right or wrong. This is pro-forma: we don't want readers being presented with information which is potentially questionable as though it weren't questionable, ever. We then have an obligation to (a) fix the problematic material, or (b) explain to that editor's satisfaction why the problematic material isn't problematic, and we should get that understanding from them before the tag is removed. I do I recognize that there are cases where no amount of explanation will satisfy an editor - such is life - but Verbal's actions seem to presume that no editor he disagrees with will ever be satisfied, because he skips the whole step of trying to satisfy others' concerns. at minimum, that's an ugly example of a lack of good faith, and it's perilously close to pure, overt page ownership. I'm willing to credit Verbal with having the right intentions, but his methods are so anti-consensual that they destroy whatever positive effect his intentions might otherwise have. --Ludwigs2 22:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Note - please edit your comments into your own sections. read the boilerplate at the top of the edit page. I reserve the right to remove any comment placed in this section. --Ludwigs2 23:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    reserving the right and exercising the right are two different things. MastCell's comment was directed specifically to me (as was your comment above), and I trust MastCell to be always reasonable, respectful, and on-topic. the other comments were either arbitrary separate comments about Verbal or non-responsive personal comments aimed at me, all of which should be owned by editors in their own sections. If you'd like to discuss this further, please use my talk page, or create a section for yourself below. --Ludwigs2 00:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comments on MastCell's proposal

    • I agree with MastCell that the blocks by AGK appear to serve no purpose. In particular it was not helpful that it was not taken into account that this very issue has been hammered out through a large number of prior discussions, including an ArbCom case. AGK seems to have behaved in this instance like a martinet. Mathsci (talk) 22:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
      • I support overturning, and given the fact that this needs to be decided fairly quickly in order not to make the whole thing moot (as of this moment, almost half of the original 48 hrs have already past), I would suggest not waiting much further. AGK edited a couple of hours ago, with a comment on the THF case, but chose not to further comment on the Verbal case, so I guess proper opportunity of consultation was given. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comment by Stephan Schulz

    Repeated from above Not only are the two blocks unnecessary, they are also spurious to begin with. AGK justifies the punitive blocks with the article probation. However, if you go against some of the long-standing principles based on an ArbCom remedy, you should actually follow the terms of the probation. ArbCom allows article bans or other editing restriction (only after an explicit warning for each editor), and blocks only if these restrictions are violated. I strongly object to this high-handedness and suggest immediate unblocking - and a solid trouting for AFG.. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Result of the appeal by Verbal

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    In light of the objections posted here, as well as in the original thread about THF above and at THF's appeal in the next section, I have unblocked both accounts; this means effectively shortening both their blocks to 24hrs rather than the original 48. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Appeal by THF

    Unblocked.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    Unblocked by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs). MastCell  17:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
    Appealing user
    THF (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – THF (talk) 19:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    Copied here upon request from his talk page by  Sandstein  20:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    Sanction being appealed
    48-hour block at Misplaced Pages:AE#Result_concerning_THF
    Editor who imposed or found consensus to impose the sanction
    AGK (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) / AGK (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Notification of that editor
    20:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by THF

    I was blocked for violating 0RR on an article under AE probation, over 24 hours after I unilaterally withdrew from talk-page discussion and 30 hours after my last mainspace edit. The article probation in question did not impose any 1RR requirements; when I reviewed the probation announcement, it merely stated that one should be especially careful to abide by 3RR. I can understand a preventative block to prevent future edit-warring even when there is no 1RR violation--but there was no risk of that here because I ceded the issue after two days of good-faith attempts to engage in talk-page discussion. I can understand a punitive block if I violated a clear rule related to the probation -- but I adhered to 1RR in an article that wasn't even under a 1RR restriction. If punitive blocks are to be applied, there should be some fair warning of where the behaviorial lines are. At risk of wikilawyering, expressio unius est exclusio alterius -- the fact that some article probations include a 1RR restriction and this one did not led me to reasonably believe that adhering to 1RR was more than reasonable behavior. Basic rule of law principles require fair notice before imposing punishments. The blocking admin also blocked User:Verbal (who disagreed with my position) and threatened a block against User:Jehochman for 1RR violations, which seems inappropriate given the state of the article probation.

    Statement by AGK

    Comments by others about the appeal by THF

    • It makes no sense to block someone for edit-warring after they've already ceded the point in question and withdrawn from the article. This block is well over the line from preventive into punitive, and should be overturned. I'll await an explanation of how this block is preventive; absent that, I'll reverse it or support its reversal by another admin. MastCell  21:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Result of the appeal by THF

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    This editor, as well as Verbal (talk · contribs) who was sanctioned at the same time, have both been unblocked by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs). MastCell  17:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Mooretwin

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Mooretwin

    User requesting enforcement
    O Fenian (talk) 10:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Mooretwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Probation for disruptive editors
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. First revert
    2. Second revert within 7 days of the first, a breach of his 1 revert per week probation
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    Not applicable
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Administrator discretion, but Mooretwin has a lengthy block log for edit warring
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Mooretwin claims the second revert is not a revert, but it is a clear partial revert of this edit, and his summary even makes it clear he is undoing the actions of another editor. The wording may not be identical, but that is not necessary it is still a partial revert. O Fenian (talk) 10:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Mooretwin

    Statement by Mooretwin

    LOL. The second one wasn't a revert! It was also part of a dialogue on the Talk page with Gnevin which resulted in agreement - why would anyone wish to punish an editor for taking part in a constructive dialogue? Finally, according to Elonka "partial reverts" aren't included, if that is what fellow-editor O Fenian is arguing. It's nice to know there are fellow editors out there ganging up to try to get others banned, though - O Fenian acting here on behalf of Domer48 and BigDunc - see here and here. Is that acceptable, desirable or mature behaviour? Petty wouldn't be in it. Maybe I should follow suit? Oh, and I object to the probation, anyway, as I was only put on probation as a scapegoat to make it look like Elonka was being "even-handed" in dealing with Domer48. I didn't, however, engage in a campaign of harassment against Elonka as Domer48 did. Mooretwin (talk) 19:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Mooretwin

    O Fenian, could you please link to the decision imposing the 1 revert per week probation that you allege has been infringed?  Sandstein  18:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

    Elonka placed MooreTwin on 1RR per week here. BigDunc 18:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    Yes, I had hoped that it is logged on the case page would be sufficient. The notification informing Mooretwin of it is here. O Fenian (talk) 18:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    I can't see any 1R restriction for Mooretwin on the case page log, just a probation, that's why I asked. Can you please provide the diff of the edit with which the 1R restriction was imposed?  Sandstein  18:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC) – Never mind, I found it, here. Waiting for a statement by Mooretwin.  Sandstein  18:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    Mooretwin claims the text was "different", it was not different to any significant degree it was virtually identical. Attempting to add a paragraph for the second time with virtually identical wording is a revert, by the accepted definition of the term. If as Mooretwin says "It was also part of a dialogue on the Talk page with Gnevin which resulted in agreement - why would anyone wish to punish an editor for taking part in a constructive dialogue?", if there was any such agreement why did Gnevin make this edit to remove the so-called agreed upon text? O Fenian (talk) 19:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    (Silly bickering unrelated to the request removed.  Sandstein  22:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC))

    This is a very poor block of a good faith edit. I removed the text from GAA requesting an improved reference. Mooretwin duly supplied the reference and after some back and forth we reached a compromise which improve the text. Isn't discussion how we are meant to avoid edit wars? Gnevin (talk) 23:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

    I feel your timeline is confused. Mooretwin's revert was made at 21:29 on 7 February, when the section you linked to looked like this. There was no discussion by Mooretwin prior to edit warring, all the discussion came after. O Fenian (talk) 00:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    Sorry but I'm finding it difficult to find your request for this block or your request to maintain this block with in the bounds of good faith . Are you seriously suggesting we block a user for 3 months for a 2 minute lag in between adding a requested reference and leaving a curiosity on the talk page which shows there willingness to engage in discussion ? Gnevin (talk) 00:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    Please provide a diff where I requested any sort of block, or strike your comment. My quite correct point is that Mooretwin did not discuss whether his edit would be acceptable on the talk page prior to making it, he just went ahead and made it anyway. He did not attempt to come to any sort of agreement prior to making the edit, he went ahead and edit-warred despite his probation. O Fenian (talk) 00:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    You are the user listed as the User requesting enforcement here . So you maybe you be not requested a block out right but for a user with Mooretwin's history it was the most likely outcome. Why would a edit which adds a requested reference be considered edit warring? As I say I take a very low view of this request for enforcement, your splitting hairs over 2 minutes in between discussion and edit. Your highlighting an edit which lead to a discussion and an improvement of the article and is not even a revert . All that aside. I've made my point Gnevin (talk) 00:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Mooretwin

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    I find the request to have merit. At , Mooretwin was made subject to a 1R/week restriction until roughly 11 February 2010 as provided for by WP:ARBCOM/TROUBLES#Probation for disruptive editors and WP:ARBCOM/TROUBLES#Terms of probation. With his edits of 23:55, 1 February 2010 and 21:29, 7 February 2010 he violated this restriction. Both edits were reverts as defined at WP:3RR#Application of 3RR ("A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part"); indeed, both edits were made using the WP:UNDO feature as can be seen from their edit summaries. In view of the policy's clear language, Elonka's wrong advice that "partial reverts" are allowed is immaterial; moreover, the second revert was not partial: it re-added all the content that the previous editor had removed but added another reference, which is not the "attempting to find a compromise" that Elonka would have allowed. The reverted material at issue relates to the Troubles and is thus within the scope of the case.

    The applicable remedy, WP:ARBCOM/TROUBLES#Enforcement by block, provides that "participants who violate the terms of the probation may be blocked for an appropriate period of time." In determining the appropriate period, I take into account that Mooretwin has been blocked nine times previously, each time for edit warring or violating revert restrictions, and that the two most recent blocks (in 2009) have had a duration of one month. It therefore appears that even blocks of this length are not sufficient to effectively prevent him from reverting excessively. For this reason, I believe that an appropriate length of an effective preventative block is three months. I am now imposing this block, but will lift it if Mooretwin instead agrees to abide by a complete topic ban from any content and discussions related to the Troubles for these three months.

    Independently of the block or ban, I am also re-imposing the one revert per week probation upon Mooretwin for an indefinite duration.  Sandstein  22:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions Add topic