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Linguist List link

Hello there buddy. Why do you want that Linguist list link in there? The links are dead, they don't work. I'm reasonable, I'll listen.Dave (talk) 00:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The link does work. It takes you to a page where you can choose a variety of different family tree graphics (depending on the author of the classification). It's a very useful link. I've tested that link a dozen times and it always works. Do you have Java enabled on your computer? That may be why the link doesn't work for you. (Taivo (talk) 00:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC))

Hello Taivo, you seem to be interested in the Linguist List Link site itself rather than the subpage actually addressed. That seems to work OK and seems to belong there. What I am doing is moving these link formats to the recommended Misplaced Pages "cite" templates, which provide a uniform look and allow the user enough information so he can see what it is without having to click on every link. One relies on the information in the template rather than on the editor's description, which is apt to be opinionated and often is wrong. Here it is wrong. The subpage actually linked gives no description. Don't you think it would be a better idea to link your preferred site rather than this subpage? Then the user can look up any IE language. Right now I'm called away. In a few moments I will set up a "cite web" to the LL search site and you can take a look. If you don't want to use it then please set the link up in "cite template format" without the incorrect summary. Oh, I could not help noticing the "edit war" comments on your discussion site. I find that most "edit wars" can be avoided by discussion, but it's you call there.Dave (talk) 00:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a programming type, so my references and links look more like a written paper than the techno stuff you were describing. I'll look to see what you're talking about. And concerning discussions, it takes two to discuss. Edit wars often happen when only one party is talking and the other party is not. (Taivo (talk) 05:47, 15 December 2009 (UTC))

The link wasn't pointing to the right place. I fixed it so that it points to the portal for the family trees. (Taivo (talk) 05:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC))

Thanks

I appreciate your recent edits Taivo and I'm glad we can always work together towards conciliation. Thankyou. 14:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Why do you keep changing your mind Taivo? Izzedine 15:06, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I haven't changed my mind. I have always opposed the addition of "Ancient Iraq" in the article on Mesopotamia. But when it was just you and me discussing, then in the absence of consensus against it, I let it ride. Now there is a clear consensus against it. (Taivo (talk) 15:11, 25 December 2009 (UTC))

Do you think we can find some conciliation? Izzedine 15:21, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The generally accepted boundaries of Mesopotamia are not the same as the boundaries of modern Iraq, so the use of the term "Ancient Iraq" does not equal "Mesopotamia" and they are not synonyms. Write a separate article on Ancient Iraq if you see fit, but it's not the same as Mesopotamia (which includes several sites in Syria and Turkey). No one doubts that "Ancient Iraq" is a valid title for a book or Misplaced Pages article. But Mesopotamia is larger than Iraq. The two are not equal, so they are not synonyms. (Taivo (talk) 15:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC))

While I agree with you, there are only a couple of noted Mesopotamian sites outside Iraq's actual borders, and not very far outside too. It's worth remembering that there were Ancient Greek sites all over the southern Balkans and Anatolia, there were Ancient Egyptian sites in Sudan, Libya and up the levant coast. Another fact to be considered is that *there are* etymologies tracing the name "Iraq" to the Akkadian name for Uruk - this is verifiable, and may mean the name "Iraq" is far older than "Mesopotamia" - more than twice as old in fact. I'm absolutely not at all trying to supplant the established name "Mesopotamia" though, I just want the alternative to be included. Izzedine 16:48, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The etymologies linking "Iraq" to "Uruk" are 100% political crap invented by the cronies of Iraq's former dictator. As such, they are not verifiable by reliable linguists. "Ancient Iraq" is not an alternative for "Mesopotamia". I have posted a request for comment on the history and geography page. Now we just wait and see what the community thinks. (Taivo (talk) 16:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC))

This is demonstrating a strong negative POV Taivo, which is a breach of one of Misplaced Pages's three core policies. What about the rest of what I said too? Misplaced Pages is not a democracy you can't just count hands in the audience Taivo, if things were that way there would be systemic bias everywhere. Izzedine 17:24, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

First, WP:NPOV only applies to the text of the articles. You also have a strong POV. On Talk Pages and during discussions, POV doesn't matter unless it is focused personally, which I have not done (unless you are one of the former dictator's linguistic cronies). The goal is to take all those POVs and determine what is the most NPOV wording in the article. That doesn't always mean "a little for everyone". Second, Misplaced Pages doesn't "count hands", it works on WP:CONSENSUS. That means that the community works not on counting hands in a vote, but on determining what the great (very clear) majority of editors think is best. "Democracy" says that 5 beats 4. "Consensus" says that 8 beats 1, but 5 doesn't beat 4. "Consensus" does not mean that 1 beats 3. If you actually have reliable sources (and you have not yet proven that you do), then you can sway consensus in your favor. It happens all the time here. But you have no real proof yet. You throw out "evidence" that you have not evaluated at all. That's what the other editors do on a regular basis, but you have not apparently learned how to do at this point. (Taivo (talk) 17:36, 25 December 2009 (UTC))

Mentorship Committee

I'm contacting you because your name is listed at Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Utah.

Please consider reviewing my edit at Misplaced Pages:Mentorship#Unintended consequences. In the search for a mentor deemed acceptable by ArbCom, I view this as a useful context for discussing what I have in mind.

There is no obvious congruence between your editing interests and mine, but perhaps the disjunction presents a novel opportunity.

Will you consider looking into whether you might agree to join others in a Mentorship Committee which advises me?

In any case -- even if you are disinclined to pursue the primary thrust of this diff, I wonder if I might be able to tweak your curiosity with an article about 95-year-old Patrick Lennox Tierney? He is a Japanologist academic in the field of art history, an emeritus professor of the University of Utah, a former Curator of Japanese Art at the Utah Museum of Fine Arts, and a former Commissioner of Art and Monuments during the Allied Occupation of Japan (1945-1952). I think this elderly man still lives near the University. Tierney came to my attention because the Japanese government conferred the Order of the Rising Sun, Gold Rays with Neck Ribbon in 2007.

Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of Tierney's life concerns his work for the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP), Gen. Douglas MacArthur. Tierney's office was near MacArthur's suite in SCAP headquarters. Tierney was an eyewitness on the day Emperor Hirohito came to offer a formal apology; but when the emperor arrived, MacArthur refused to admit him or acknowledge him. Issues which might have been addressed were allowed to remain open, with consequences which unfolded across the decades which followed. In 2006, Tierney made an effort to explain his understanding of what he had personally observed: "Apology is a very important thing in Japan. With us, we don't apologize unless we get caught with our hand in the cookie jar, but for the Japanese, there is a very strong sense of what an apology means." According to popular historian Herbert Bix in Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, "MacArthur's truly extraordinary measures to save Hirohito from trial as a war criminal had a lasting and profoundly distorting impact on Japanese understanding of the lost war."

Among a prospective mentor's many burdens, the most difficult would involve (a) helping me discern why or when I should apologize or (b) helping me to explain why or when I will not apologize in a wiki-context. --Tenmei (talk) 02:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I would be willing to participate in a mentorship committee if ArbCom deems me acceptable. I would not be willing to be a solo mentor, but as part of a committee I would be willing. While I am sometimes passionate about the subject matter I follow, I do feel that I know the difference between personal attack and polite disagreement. I read the notice about getting a committee and, if I read correctly, John Carter has volunteered to be a part. He is a very good editor and will be a good member of the mentorship committee. (Taivo (talk) 04:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC))

Thank you for your time and consideration. As a gesture of appreciation, please allow me to share a rhetorical question from the Analects of Confucius: "Is it not pleasant to learn with a constant perseverance and application?" --Tenmei (talk) 17:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

May I offer a proposal? Please replace your username with your signature (four tildes ~~~~) in the list of "active mentors" at User talk:Tenmei/Sub-page Alerts. This is necessary step in a constructive direction.

You may find that what I'm asking for is probably less than you imagine in the short term, or perhaps more than you anticipate in the long term. --Tenmei (talk) 07:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Taivo

Happy new year, dear namesake! I know, Taivo is not your real name, but it is mine. It has no meaning and I am glad to have a name without meaning. I have never contacted you before, but I'd like to ask: the username "Taivo" in Finnish wikipedia is occupied by a person who is not me but who speaks Finnish. Is it you? Do you actually speak Finnish? Taivo (talk) 15:05, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

My username, "Taivo", means 'white man' in the Timbisha language. It is the short version of my Timbisha name Nuwitaivottsi, which means "Travelling White Man". I know Hungarian, but not Finnish. (Taivo (talk) 15:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC))

Okay. Then there is three Taivos. I have registered username Taivo in Estonian, German, Russian and Simple English, in Commons and Estonian Wiktionary. Someone has registered it in Hungarian but hasn't made anything. And – if you ever need a favour, just ask. Taivo (talk) 17:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Cypriot Turkish vs Gibrizlija

Hi, Taivo. Could you have a look at this page please: Gibrizlija . It claims to be about a Turkic language. It seems to be a complete hoax and the current sources in the article do not meet wiki standards as they are mostly self-published websites. The page has been tagged to be merged into the article on Cypriot Turkish since November 2007. Many Thanks in advance. WillMall (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not a language, it's just a dialect of Turkish and identical with Cypriot Turkish. I frown on Misplaced Pages articles about dialects personally, but there are nationalists that insist upon them even though they are pretty useless compared to the articles on the language they are a part of. Gibrizlija and Cypriot Turkish are the same thing. Since the majority of English language sources will call it Cypriot Turkish, voilà, that's the name that should be used with Gibrizlija as an alternate name. The "reliable sources" are crap. Turkish is generally separated into two dialects--Western Anatolian (from which Standard derives) and Eastern Anatolian (from which Cypriot apparently derives). Bernt Brendemoen, 1998, "Turkish Dialects," The Turkic Languages, Routledge, pp. 236-241. Also, "The Turks of Cyprus were settled there by the Ottoman government in the sixteenth century"--Hendrik Boeschoten, 1998, "The Speakers of Turkic Languages," The Turkic Languages, pg. 4. So either delete both articles or merge them as Cypriot Turkish. (Taivo (talk) 03:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC))

ok, thanks. WillMall (talk) 03:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC) Actually, I don't think I can do anything as an admin will probably stop a merge or deletion. WillMall (talk) 04:43, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I took the bold route and made the G article a redirect to Cypriot Turkish. Except for the history section, the two articles were nearly identical. (Taivo (talk) 04:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC))

Answering Randy in Boise

Hi, Taivo. I'm a scientist too, but I generally edit in topic areas where I'm not an expert. However, since you mention Randy in Boise on your userpage, I thought I would mention how we handle that sort of thing at the Che Guevara article, in case you might find it a helpful example. In previous discussions we've established 3 or 4 particular biographies as being the most reliable sources for the article, based on such things as the book having an extensive bibliography in the back, a review of the book appearing in JSTOR, and other criteria (as objective as possible) to establish a high level of scholarship. When someone proposes adding a theory or anecdote to the page, we either check one or more of these biographies to see whether it's mentioned, or ask the editor wanting to add it to do so. We explain that if it's not mentioned in these definitive biographies or has only a very short mention, then putting it in the article would violate WP:UNDUE, explaining that the article is a short summary of a large amount of literature about Che Guevara and that there therefore isn't room for everything. This can all be done fairly briefly by giving links to earlier discussions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Awiya

Hi Taivo! I noticed that you removed the qualifying "misleadingly" from Awiya, because you deem it unnecessary. Hetzron (in the reference I attached to my edit) made it quite clear that Awiya is a very unfortunate misnomer for the language, as it means "Awi-person" in the language, just like calling the English language "Englishman". Conti Rossini only came up with that name because of lack of exposure to the language, and it is quite good to be rid of it in the literature. I agree it should be mentioned in the article, because the name was also used by Palmer in his otherwise excellent article, and readers should be able to identify it with Awngi, but still I think it is necessary to make readers aware of the inappropriateness of the name. Maybe you could consider to put the "misleadingly" in again? Landroving Linguist (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I reworded the qualifier. "Awiya" isn't misleading, but it's definitely inappropriate. Cheers. (Taivo (talk) 15:28, 4 January 2010 (UTC))

I figured it might be s.t. like that. I added it because that's what it goes by in USPID. kwami (talk) 21:31, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus

Hi

I noticed you re-edited my edit back to "officially"

Can you tell me what officially means in your context please ?

I took that wording out as most countries do not officially recognise that name apart from the republic itself and Turkey

thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 22:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

It means that is what the official name of the country is (translated into English, of course). "Official" means the formal name that the country has adopted for itself. It has nothing to do with international relations or international organizations. That wording was the result of discussions in the past. English speakers really don't use "Turkish Republic..." in any contexts other than stating the official name. (Taivo (talk) 23:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC))

Can we at least agree to use different wording, perhaps "Its declared name" or something like that which will not confuse readers into thinking it is officially accepted as a country in its own right ? Chaosdruid (talk) 01:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Whether the international community accepts the validity of its independence or not, the official name of a country is the name it chooses for itself. Northern Cyprus is an independent country whether anyone else thinks so or not because it acts like a sovereign nation. It is de facto independent. As such, it has an official name. Take Macedonia, for example. It's official name is "Republic of Macedonia" even though Greece has forced the UN (and many other international organizations) to only call it "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". It's official name, no matter what the UN or Greece says, is "Republic of Macedonia" because the Macedonian government says that's its official name. The other is an international reference. The official name of Northern Cyprus is "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". It doesn't matter if anyone else wants to consider it to be independent or not--the official name is "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". There's no other accurate term for it. (Taivo (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC))

I surrender to your greater wikiperience  :¬) .... (until proven otherwise ?!? lol)

Chaosdruid (talk) 07:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Reverts and edits on "Northern Cyprus"

Hi

SOrry to bother you but I am having a little problem with two ip users, one you have dealt with I believe on that page.

You reverted his edits, as I would have done, and once they reappeared I reverted them again + warning for vandalism

The history shows the two ips and I have also warned the second IP user for inappropriate edit comments

I havent got enough experience of dealing with this sort of conflict so thought I would try and use your Wikiperience again ! I am worried that I would not know exactly what to do if they revert again...

thanks in anticipation...Chaosdruid (talk) 12:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I have reported the matter on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring to cover myself against any 3RR or warring accusations. Anyting else I should do ?

Chaosdruid (talk) 13:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Not for now. I contacted another interested editor to have him take a look. You already know my position on "officially" in the first sentence, but the other two IP edits just feel too POV for my taste (and, they are unsourced) so I don't like them. Whenever you get caught with an IP (or another registered editor) in a similar situation, you did the right thing--contacting another editor. Make sure you've made comments on the article's Talk Page so that your position is well documented as well as the other editor's failure to discuss the issue. Over time, you'll get to know some administrators as well. You can also ask them to protect the page. (Taivo (talk) 13:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC))

OK - cheers for the advice. I did comment on all the IP chat pages as well as putting the "you may be edit warring" notice on the last ip chat page. Also made comments on the article chat page and left it half hour until that last revert was made then reported it.

As for the "officially" matter, you showed great wisdom as well as non bitey behaviour (I have scars from other editors bites lol) and thank you for that...

Chaosdruid (talk) 14:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome. There's an admin who's chimed in at Northern Cyprus now (User:Nev1), so the cavalry has arrived. (Taivo (talk) 14:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC))

Northern Cyprus on List of sovereign states

Good edit to follow mine up. Sounds like a middle ground to me. Outback the koala (talk) 07:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Indo European Languages article

I reverted to my addition of Rig-Vedic (which is not strictly sanskrit i.e classical sanskrit but the ancestor of it called vedic sanskrit). Rigvedic is the oldest attested form of vedic sanskrit and belongs much to the bronze age of a time comparable to Mycenean Greek. Also see Rigveda#Dating and historical context

Feel free to undo if you're still not convinced. :)

86.96.227.87 (talk) 22:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

"Attestation" means written records from that time, not just an assumption based on written records from 2000 years later. (Taivo (talk) 04:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC))

Talk:Selkirk

Hi Taivo. Could you weigh in at Talk:Selkirk where we are discussiing whether the article should mention the towns gaelic name.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Uzhhorod

(section moved to article talk page where more appropriate.) (Taivo (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2010 (UTC))

Meseems that, effectively, diacritics are appropriate for every language written in the Cyrillic alphabet (even though they are rarely used). Or so I figured after seeing the following examples , , , . In any case I think that Cyrillic diacritics are necessary in cases where the place of the pitch accent is not predictable. --Omnipaedista (talk) 08:03, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, diacritics are found in Russian and Ukrainian dictionaries to mark stress placement, but English readers who don't know Cyrillic and Cyrillic dictionary habits wouldn't know that and would think that the diacritic marks is supposed to be there normally. Stress in the English Misplaced Pages should be marked in the phonetic transcription--that's where English readers will expect to find that. (Taivo (talk) 13:07, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

You removed my text.

You removed my text where I maintained that on the pages of Misplaced Pages treating the Ancient History operates a gang of 3-5 persons (or a single one with couple accounts) who, by acting in concert on the related subjects, try to promote removal of the name of the Ancient Macedonia replacing it by Greece, Hellas or derivates of these names.

To remove my text was a very good idea. Thanks very much indeed.Draganparis (talk) 22:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is saying anything

Thank you for that treatise. I trained in historical linguistics as an undergrad.

But this is just a section "Genetics of Chadic speakers" that is causing no harm, and you sound like an antagonistic collegiate, a misguided trooper. Chadic languages is not yours to defend. DinDraithou (talk) 19:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Chadic languages

Hi Taivo. I have previously hinted at what I am now going to say bluntly: don't use your academic credentials as an argument in content disputes. It doesn't work. Being a linguistics professor is not an argument in it self - there are many crackpot linguistics professors in the world whose titles are not worth the paper they're written on. I know you are not one of those but the only way you can make other editors know that here at wikipedia is by using rational coherent arguments and not appeals to authority. Furthermore when you bring in your credentials you invite ad hominem arguments since what you are basically doing is turning your person into an argument. This derails discussions into namecalling. It also comes off as arrogant which ticks off a lot of people. Really, you should stick to arguing by means of those sound and rational arguments based in your extensive knowledge about the topic of linguistics, that I know you base you opinions on. ·Maunus·ƛ· 07:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus

Hi again

I have commented on the Northern Cyprus page.

You took out my commentary as NPOV

Chaosdruid (talk) 16:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Albanians

Hi Taivo. Do you think you could give a third opinion here as to whether a dictionary written by Stephanus of Byzantium (6th century) is a primary source or a tertiary source.--Ptolion (talk) 17:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. Could you please also give an answer on the talk:albanians page about the use of the maps? Unfortunately an unregistered user removed it. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 18:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Really appreciated your measured approach! Thanks. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 21:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Moroni or Nephi

Hi Taivo. I cited my sources where the angle is called Nephi, by Joseph Smith himself. Should you want to look for your self, Times and Seasons Vol. III pp. 749, 753, Millennial Star, vol. 3, p.53, Millennial Star. August 1842. Vol 3 p 71, Biographical Sketches, p. 79, Pearl of Great Price, 1851 edition. Now don't be a dick and delete it again.

Hmm. An unsigned personal attack. Should I care? No. (Taivo (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC))

It's not an "attack" Taivo. It's a fact. I've cited the sources, you need to stop being a little dick and leave it alone.

I do believe that "dick" is a personal attack. Take the issue to the Talk Page and if you get a consensus (if your sources are good it won't be a problem), then we we add it to the article. (Taivo (talk) 20:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC))

You're welcome regarding the revert :). Also, in future consider not responding to personal attacks, most times it's best to revert and ignore. Best, - Kingpin (talk)

You're right, of course, but sometimes the trolls are just so cute and cuddly when they're little :p (Taivo (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC))

Don't have too many or you'll be sick :P - Kingpin (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Dealing with Fascist Vandals

Please could you consider placing warning templates {{uw-v1|Dnepropetrovsk}}, {{uw-v2|Dnepropetrovsk}}, {{uw-v3|Dnepropetrovsk}}, etc. on user talk pages when you revert vandalism to Ukrainian articles. As you have noticed some people, mainly from the United States, have been vandalising Ukrainian articles, deleting the common English name, or making hate comments about the native language of central and eastern Ukraine. I have done this for the talk pages of various vandals whose harmful edits you recently reverted.--Toddy1 (talk) 12:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom clerks' noticeboard

Is this something you need to know? Your name is included in a new posting at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Clerks Noticeboard#Discussion/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Tang Dynasty? As for what happens next, we'll see? --Tenmei (talk) 08:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

As you know, ArbCom remedies in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty implied a multi-step process; however, no protocols for confirming mentors were suggested. In the absence of specifics, User:Mattisse/Plan was taken as an arguably relevant procedural model. Accordingly, a draft plan and list of mentors was e-mailed to each ArbCom member and redundantly posted at WP:AC/CN. This seems not to have worked.

I have now sought "approval" at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Tang Dynasty. This message is necessary because the standard template requires me to confirm notifying you. --Tenmei (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)