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:For the Indian strength, I will again agree with Tigerassault's contention that theoretically the entire Indian army could be take as "reserve". And reserves are just that "reserves". They are not counted as combatants till they have called for combat at least once. As I have alredy mentioned only one neutral source puts the number at 30,000. Portuguese sources may, as expected, inflate the number, for obvious reasons, or, may simply not have an accurate count and put in some guesswork. The number of sailors on the Vikrant cannot be taken as combatants because the ship acts as a whole unit. The sailors cannot act without the ship and vice-versa. Besides they are not a part of the army anyway. | :For the Indian strength, I will again agree with Tigerassault's contention that theoretically the entire Indian army could be take as "reserve". And reserves are just that "reserves". They are not counted as combatants till they have called for combat at least once. As I have alredy mentioned only one neutral source puts the number at 30,000. Portuguese sources may, as expected, inflate the number, for obvious reasons, or, may simply not have an accurate count and put in some guesswork. The number of sailors on the Vikrant cannot be taken as combatants because the ship acts as a whole unit. The sailors cannot act without the ship and vice-versa. Besides they are not a part of the army anyway. | ||
:Regarding the Portuguese strength I feel that the figure of POWS (once verified) can be taken as accurate. --] (]) 11:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC) | :Regarding the Portuguese strength I feel that the figure of POWS (once verified) can be taken as accurate. --] (]) 11:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC) | ||
::This source gives the precise figures of the Portuguese POWS:. Far more than the 3300 you have claimed. | |||
<blockquote>In all, 4668 prisoners are taken, including military and civilian personnel, Portuguese, Africans and Indians (Goans) – numbers as given in the "Operation Vijay" report; 3412 in Goa, 853 in Damão, 403 in Diu.</blockquote> | |||
I will updated the article accordingly. | |||
===Infiltration fo "supporters of annexation=== | ===Infiltration fo "supporters of annexation=== |
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TAP Super Constellation CS-TLA, Afonso de Albuquerque and Vega Naval Combats
TAP CS-TLA "Vasco da Gama" (ironic name for the aircraft chartered for the evacuation of Goa) This was the Super Constellation chartered by the Portuguese government to evacuate civilians, having arrived at Goa on Dec. 17th, due to constant threats by India, especially since Dec. 14th. On board were female Portuguese Paratroopers, sent to assist in the evacuation. Crew all TAP personnel (i.e. civilians), namely: Captian: Manuel Correia Reis Co-pilots: Anselmo Ribeiro, Alcídio Nascimento Navigator: P. Reis Radio-operator: A. Pereira Mecanics: A. Coragem, H. Dias Steward: Madeira Stewardesses: Carlota, Prazeres You can check TAP air route registers, Montijo airbase reports regarding the controversial decision to send a civilian TAP Constellation instead of two Portuguese Airforce DC-6 aircraft which were on alert at Montijo Airbase, near Lisbon. The choice for TAP was derived from the Portuguese Airforce not being permitted to land for refueling at airports in the 8 500kms that seperate Lisbon from Goa. The following sites, in Portuguese, are a good start. But there's lots more at various archives in Lisbon: http://www.supergoa.com/pt/read/news_cronica.asp?c_news=521 http://goancauses.com/9.html http://clearedfortakeoff.blogspot.com/2009/07/santacruzenses-em-defesa-da-patria-na_12.html http://www.asa-virtual.org/tapv/pt/m1049.php Many confuse the TAP Constellation with an Indian Navy constellation which was abandoned at Dabolim after the invasion; the Indian aircraft had initially served on Air India, being of the same class as the TAP plane. The TAP Constellation flew until being retired from service with all of the TAP Constellation fleet in 1967. There's a picture of the TAP Constellation that had evacuated Goa, taken three years after the invasion, in Mozambique in 1964: http://voandoemmozambique.blogspot.com/2009/11/633-cs-tla-da-tap-em-lourenco-marques.html There has been confusion and false claims from Indian sources that CS-TLA had been damaged, but proof and pictures are non-existent. Portuguese records on the other hand are available on-line or from TAP Portugal(http://www.flytap.pt).
The Goan airline, TAIP was dissolved and integrated into the Portuguese Airforce to serve in transport missions in Portugal and Africa. All of the DC-6 were already out at the time of the invasion (helping in Portugal's African campaigns), and the DC-4 that escaped on the night of the 18th, the last plane out, was integrated into the Portuguese Air Force. http://pt.wikipedia.org/Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_da_%C3%8Dndia_Portuguesa
Afonso de Albuquerque Various registers, but one of the most complete essays is that of José Augusto Sarmento Gouveia, the young second officer/chief of navigation of the NRP Afonso Albuquerque in the Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86, Lisbon. Pages 175 - 206. (One of the Portuguese navy's most brilliant officer's he was held POW in deplorable conditions by India, but once released he went on to fight in Angola, Mozambique and Guinea where Portugal was already confronting Soviet and Chinese backed guerrila movements at the time and progressed to Admiral in the 1990's). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.130.75 (talk) 00:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC) The route undertaken by the Afonso de Albuquerque was aimed at avoiding the artillery barrage from the Indian fleet (composed of seven ships) and to simultaneously keep the merchant vessels anchored at Marmagao from being hit. In this manner the Afonso Albuquerque was highly successful, since only one sailor on board died (the radio-operator) and the Afonso managed to hit two Indian frigates (which has much higher fire capacity, speed and manueverability than the obscolete Portugues frigate). Nonetheless, the Indians hit two civilian ships, the British "Ranger" received at least one direct hit. The Indian airforce was just as inaccurate as the Indian navy. The Afonso de Albuquerque managed to use all of its munitions (almost 400 rounds) and maintain full comunications with Lisbon before being beached.
Vega The unproprtional use of force by the Indian invaders was most revealing in the combats between the Indian cruiser New Delhi and the tiny fibre-glass patrol craft Vega, with a crew of six. Nontheless, the Vega attacked the New Delhi and managed to thwart off Indian airforce attacks for hours before running out of ammunition and being sunk.
Troop Numbers: 3 300 Portuguese Infantry After February, 1961 many of the troops and equipment in Goa were sent to Angola and Moçambique to aid in the campaigns there. It was due to this weakness that Indian leaders took action and invaded Goa, which was practically demilitarized and isolated from possible reinforcements.
- I dont think I need to explain why I reverted your fiction after this --18:31, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
- You must be confusing your sources: Pictures of the TAP Constellation (the Vasco da Gama, which evacuated civilians from Goa on the night of the 18th flew for TAP for another 6 years (check the pictures above) and later served for covert operations in the Biafran War. The TAIP airplane was a DC-4 (not 6); your sources are very inprecise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.138.228 (talk) 00:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
- That is not the question here. If you insist on mixing constructive edits with fiction aimed at glorifyng the Portuguese bravery, it is a violation of Misplaced Pages's, Neutral point of view policy and will be reverted. Please note that this is an encyclopedia, not a novel that we use prose. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 05:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
- You must be confusing your sources: Pictures of the TAP Constellation (the Vasco da Gama, which evacuated civilians from Goa on the night of the 18th flew for TAP for another 6 years (check the pictures above) and later served for covert operations in the Biafran War. The TAIP airplane was a DC-4 (not 6); your sources are very inprecise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.138.228 (talk) 00:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Mr. D´Souza, cite sources or provide proof: 1.The information inserted is cited and provable (pictures of the Constellation CS-TLA are verifiable by TAP Portugal's registers and on the sites mentioned initially). 2.The combat of the last Portuguese frigate at Marmagão are also verified and cited. Fiction is the use of the word "invasion" of Goa's total area by a small fleet of Portuguese sailboats in 1510. 3. Numbers: 3300 Portuguese troops divided between Goa, Diu and Daman + Sailors of the Afonso Albuquerque - Portuguese KIA = 3306 POW's. 4. Revisionism? From an analysis of your inputs, deletions, talks and reviews, it seems to be that that's your task. I'm simply trying to provide accurate information, in line with Wikipideia's policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.138.228 (talk) 07:20, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes The Portuguese invasion of Goa in 1510 is a fiction! The Portuguese never invaded Goa! did they? Actually they are native to Goa, right? In fact, it is the Indians who came from a distant continent and colonised Goa! (Is this what they teach you in Portugal? :-D) And Im sure your information has to be more accurate than mine; by virtue of being Portuguese you do have a god-given monopoly over truth!
- Ok, I do not wish to indulge in an edit war, so I am not reverting your last edit. As it is you have violated the Three revert rule and I am not interested in breaking it too. Nonetheless ,lets be civil and discuss each point ,one at a time and achive consensus. Till then I have placed an NPOV tag on the article. It would be good if you register an ID and edit so that your comments can easily be tracked on this talkpage. Can you start by listing your changes, starting with the most controversial ones, one at a time so we can discuss the accuracy of the sources, one at a time. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 18:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Goans are native of Goa, India did not exist as a unified nation state in 1510 and the various people who inhabited the sub-continent didn't have any perception of a politically unified India at that time. On the other hand, Portugal did have a unified governance in 1510, in fact it had been formally established as a state since 1128 (recognized by neighbouring states and the Pope in 1143). Is there some fear of Goan differentiation with respect to your idea of a unified India? I suggest you apply the criteria effective to the time your dealing with instead of using the filter of your current time and political orientation: 1510 is not 1961, 1961 is not 2010; context and politics change. Nations last longer than empires. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk) 10:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
- How does the fact that India did not exist as a nation state in 1510 justify calling the Portuguese invasion as "foundation of Goa"? Please stick to the topic and discuss edits to the article; dont use WIkipedia talk pages for idle chat. Any self-respecting Goa will find your charachterisation of the Portuguese invasion of 1510 as "foundation of Goa" insulting. Are you saying that Goa did not exist before the Portuguese came here? was it some uninhabited place ?. Since you havenot botehred to discuss your recent edits, nor justify them with sources, i am reverting your edits. Please discuss the changes here before adding them to the article. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd say, but the Portuguese could have 'founded' Goa only if Goa was uninhabited at the time of their arrival, or if it was inhabited by aboriginals (as per accepted definitions of this term). Otherwise, they merely conquered the place, and renamed it to 'Goa' from its original indigenous name. Christiphor Columbus 'founded' the colonies in the West Indies. Vasco Da Gama discovered a sea route to India, and later Alfonso De Albuquerque 'conquered' parts of India.In any case, Goa had a unique cultural and political identity long before the arrival of the Portuguese, even if it was part of a larger Konkan identity that stretched from Modern day Ratnagiri to Mangalore.
Mr. 85.88.137.124...... Its very good that you have found excellent in depth information on the Portuguese evacuation of Goa, and about the naval strategy of the Alfonso along with some very good sources. I advise you to add these to the article in all the detail you can along with their sources. However, you must not include anything that reflects your personal judgement or opinion of the matter. For example, the idea that the Vega is a 'tiny' boat is your opinion. if you wish to highlight its size, place list out its seating capacity and weapons, then list out the weapons and displacement of the New Delhi, allowing the reader to draw out his own judgements. Also its not correct to say that the Vega 'thwart'ed off Indian air attacks for hours, when the source mentions that it evaded detection by air patrols for hours.
Oh.... and do take care not ot get into edit wars. Mr. D'Souza here is an old hand and will get away with anything. You on the other hand may face a strict warning and may even have your IP address banned by the administrators. remember.... the article will stay here for ages... there's no need to get worked up and revert reverts that have been reverted all in the span of 24 hours. :)Tigerassault (talk) 09:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the advice Tigerassault. The intent is not to offend, but only to provide insight and clear-up some mistaken information which was being conveyed. I hope it can be useful to all and not offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Stick to the Issue: Dabolim Airport and the Portuguese Evacuation of Women and Children
The only aircraft that ever used Dabolim Airport before India invaded Goa were civilian aircraft. The only two that were parked on the apron on Dec. 18th, 1961 were a Goan DC-4 (Transportes Aereos da India Portuguesa) and a TAP Portugal Super Constellation (register CS-TLA, name "Vasco da Gama"). Upon bombing Dabolim airport, the Indian airforce missed the apron and hit the control tower. Most of the runway was damaged, however the Portuguese Army managed to recover 700m of the runway at nightfall and the evacuation effort proceeded with the aid of a small contingent of Portuguese female paratroopers. BOTH AIRPLANES ESCAPED TO KARACHI that night as described in the discussion above; the Super Constellation stayed in Kaarachi until Dec. 23rd initially to be repaired from 25 holes in the fuselage and a flat upon take-off. Logs are available from Museu da TAP at Lisbon Airport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.138.244 (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Goan Airlines - Transportes Aéreos da Índia Portuguesa
Goan airline DC-4 (register CR-IAE) escaped during the night of 1961.12.18 carrying women and children in an evacuation effort coordinated with a woman's paratroop contingent which flew into Goa on the TAP Constellation on 1961.12.19. Both CR-IAE and CS-TLA, the only two aircraft at Goa escaped Indian bombing and air sorties, heading onto Lisbon via Karachi. The Constellation remained in Karachi for 4 days, awaiting further orders from Military H.Q. in Portugal before proceeding back to Lisbon.
The DC-4 was integrated into the Portuguese Air Force (FAP) with register 6608, sold to a Congolese airline in 1964 to the Congo Airforce, with register 9T-THY. The 2 Goan DC-6's were transporting Portuguese troops to Angola and Moçambique at the time of the Indian invasion, since Portugal was being attacked by independence movements. As Goan airplanes the DC-6's registers were CR-IAG and CR-IAH, both were integrated into the FAP (with FAP registers 6709 and 6710 respectively). In 1975 these DC-6's were sold to a Portuguese air carrier and received new registers CS-TAK and CS-TAM where they flew until 1978.
Source: Cardoso, Adelino. Aeronaves Militares Portuguesas - Cem Anos de Aviação em Portugal. (coord. Ayala, Bernardo). copyright Cardoso. Lisboa. 2009. ISBN: 978-989-20-1801-0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.95.187.245 (talk) 16:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Can we have sources for this please:
- "This claim served to justify the bombing of the civilian facilities"
- All other Goan aircraft had been sent to participate in Portugal's campaign in Angola and Mozambique which were involved in a colonial war which started a few months prior.
- 34 Indians ...were killed
- Indian infantry strenght : 45,000.
- The Portuguese followed their actions up with a purge of supporters of annexation, many of whom had been infiltrated by the Indian Union activists(Actually this doesn't make any sense: If they were supporters of the annexation why would they need to be infiltrated :-))
- the Azad Gomantak Dal (The Free Goa Party) and the United Front of Goans conducted indiscriminate terror attacks against Portuguese nationals, whether european or Goan( why would they attack theior own, if you can first give reliable proof that they did attack Goans?)
- A Portuguese investigation into the matter revealed that the boat had also been fired upon a seven days earlier, when it deliberatelly strayed into Portuguese waters, in order to provoke incidents that could justify an indian violent response.The deliberatelly provoked incidents were successfull as they lent themselves to foster widespread public support in India for military action in Goa, thus justifying violent actions by a government that advocated non-violence.( Any neutral relaibale sources, which means non-Portuguese and non-Indian which state that this was deliberate?)
- This claim served to justify the bombing of the civilian facilities.(again, netural sources please)
- The Indian light aircraft carrier INS Vikrant was deployed 75 miles (121 km) off the coast of Goa to head a beach landing of Indian Marines,(again netural sources)
- Leonid Brezhnev ...the soviet dictator urged Indians to ignore the rule of law and western indignation
Please cite the sources here so that we can discuss them here. If you inist on adding them without discussion and consensus I will duly revert it. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 18:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Sources:
- Regarding the Indian bombing of civilian facilities at Dabolim airport and the postal telegraph station at Bambolim, the city centre at Panjim or the British merchant ship Ranger these are self evident. They occurred and there were never any F-86 Sabres at Goa airport. The Indian intelligence which had infiltrated Goa since the late 1950's (source: P. Correia and G. Verhof. University of Johannesburg. 2009) knew that there had never been any military aviation at any of the Portuguese territories. It was a lame excuse to justify India's ambitions. Nehru was aware that violent uprisings in Angola (which started in Feb. 4th 1961) and Guinea-Bissau (July 1961) would require a great military effort, far from Portugal or Goa, and he took advantage of this to strike. (In fact, in 1960 Francisco Costa Gomes ordered the reduction of Portuguese infantry in Goa, which numbered almost 10 000 to the 3 300 that were present in Dec. 1961. Source. Sarmento Gouveia. Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86. Lisbon. 1986.)
- From all sources except yours, the number of Indians reported killed is 34 (possibly more). Maybe you are only including infantry, remember that 5 dead were Indian sailors in the two frigates that were hit by the Afonso de Albuquerque's gunfire (Indian Navy officers told the Portuguese POW's at Bambolim. Source: Sarmento Gouveia. Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86. Lisbon. 1986.). Where are your sources for these figures?
- Indian infantry of 45 000 (P. Correia and G. Verhof. University of Johannesburg. 2009 also C. Morais. A Queda da Índia Portuguesa - Crónica da Invasão e Cativeiro. Editorial Estampa. Lisboa. 1999. also Sarmento Gouveia. Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86. Lisbon. 1986.) Are you including the reservists that were mobilized also? Regarding Portuguese troop numbers they amount to under 3300 ill equipped infantry plus the sailors from the Afonso de Albuquerque (and you can verify this if you look at the POW count taken at the Bambolim concentration camp that India built to house them, which numbers approximately 3300 also). The Portuguese female paratroopers who arrived at Goa on Dec. 17th, to coordenate the evacuation effort of women and children all escaped on the TAP Constellation and TAIP DC-4.
- You repeat the question twice. Remember India bombed Goa's airport which only became a military facility after India invaded the territory; Portugal never had any military aircraft at Goa, Diu or Damão.
- So what was the aircraft carrier "Vikrant", the cruiser "Mysore", the 3 destroyers and 4 frigates doing, vacationing in Goa's beaches? Don't tell me India expected the aging "Afonso de Albuquerque" to face all 9 ships with its max. speed of 18 knots and 4 guns to hold off all 8 ships (all faster and heavier equipped)?
- Brezhnev: That's the best example you have?
Why are so many Goans in Australia, Canada, Goa, Great Britain, Portugal, South Africa, U.S.A and elsewhere mostly contrary to your points of view? Why is there a movement called "FREE GOA" ? Why do you need to censor, edit, delete, reword and manipulate information regarding Goa and its history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.130.89 (talk) 22:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Stick to the issue mr. Deepak: The sources regarding the airplanes were provided by the user: Source: Cardoso, Adelino. Aeronaves Militares Portuguesas - Cem Anos de Aviação em Portugal. (coord. Ayala, Bernardo). copyright Cardoso. Lisboa. 2009. ISBN: 978-989-20-1801-0 another note: TAP Portugal never flew DC-6 aircraft (and the payload of the DC-4 or Constellation didn't allow for carrying much gold - but that claim is ludicrous). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk) 10:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I am sticking to the issue. The issue here is your rather cotroversial edits. And your cites do not cover them. The TAIP issue is less controversial and we will deal with it later. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 04:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Deepak, you insist on reverting everything anyone writes. So here's a consensus for you.
SQN LDR I S LOUGHRAN of the Indian air force confirms in Bharat Rakshak the following: 17th/18th Dec. Vamp NF X, No. ID608. After landing at Poona, we were ordered off again at about three thirty, (A/C No. ID 608, same crew) to intercept a target aircraft heading in a NNW direction off the coast, we never made contact. This target turned out to be the Super Connie that took off from Dabolim and hugging the deck went to Karachi. see here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1960s/Goa03.html
I think we can conclude that the Super Constellation did escape Goa. If there was a Super Constellation parked in Dabolim Airport when the Indians got there, it was another aircraft and not the one that arrived on the 17th. Tigerassault (talk) 12:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- The reason I reverted this edit was not because of the SC but because you inserted disputed numbers which were under discussion, not because I disputed the events. You know better than to reinsert disputed material, which is being discussed, back into the article before a consensus has been reached. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 07:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
There were no other aircraft at Dabolim when the Indian Forces arrived at the airport; TAIP's fleet had been redirected to Portugal's war effort at her African Colonies prior to hostilities; the DC-4 which remained with the company's director (Solano de Almeida), and the TAP Super Constellation both managed to escape loaded with women and children. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk) 13:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Dear 85.241.130.89. You made a comment "Why are so many Goans in Australia, Canada, Goa, Great Britain, Portugal, South Africa, U.S.A and elsewhere mostly contrary to your points of view? Why is there a movement called "FREE GOA""
I take strong offence to such juvenile statements.
As a non -resident Goan in touch with a lot of Goans around the world, i can assure you that i have yet to meet a single Goan who supports Portuguese Rule in Goa. There are a few who claim that Portuguese Goa had a lower crime rate and less corruption, but I am yet to meet a single Goan who has said that Goa should not be part of India.
As part of Federal India, Goa is a seperate state with its own democratically elected government. Except for foreign policy, defence and maybe currency, Goa is an independant nation by all means. Add to that the immense freedom one enjoys in India, and no Goan has anything political to complain about.
Free Goa? Its nothing but a few Goans who were in Europe in '61, and lapped up all the propaganda Salazar fed them. Ask Free Goa if even one single Goan Expatriate Organisation anywhere in the world has ever lent them any kind of support or acknowledgement.
Consider that the last update news item to Free Goa's website was added in April 2000.
Tigerassault (talk) 14:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
No offence intended, just trying to keep all well informed and being open to different viewpoints. Thank you for your advice (as in the preceding section). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Note: There's a detail in SQN LDR I S LOUGHRAN's statement that doesn't match with the information regarding the escape of CS-TLA, because the TAP Constellation took off from Dabolim at 15:30 Lisbon time (GMT time) according to Manuel Correia Reis' pilot log (which meant that it was 20:30 Goa time).(see TNR - Transporte Não Regular, Viagem Especial 74/61 on the flight logs at TAP Museum: Diário de Navegação n.º 13 - CS-TLA. Museu da Tap. Lisboa.)
Note 2: Why the text changes regarding the damage on the Connie? If it was damaged on take-off due to the debris and had a flat, why remove these details from the main article? Why not try to be credible and true instead of changing the facts?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk • contribs)
Since this section is getting cluttered I will be making a new talk section below for the contentious points. Please wait until I say that Im done. Again I request our anon friend to get an account to facilitate discussion. Again, please hold on to new edits and discuss them here and achieve consensus before adding them to the main page. And yes, no irrelevant chat please! --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 12:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'm done. Awaiting your sources. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 10:39, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Free Goa
May I remind the editors that Misplaced Pages talk pages are meant to discuss discuss improvements to the article, not for general chat: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject. I would love to discuss the "Free Goa" movement too but Misplaced Pages is not a place for this. Please read WP:TALK for talk page guidelines --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 07:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Also , may I also point out No personal attacks and Misplaced Pages policy on references and verifiability for our anon editor here.--Deepak D'Souza (talk) 12:25, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Points of Contention
Below are the contentious points:--Deepak D'Souza (talk) 09:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Claim v/s beleived
"This claim served to justify the bombing of the civilian facilities"
- Regarding the Indian bombing of civilian facilities at Dabolim airport and the postal telegraph station at Bambolim, the city centre at Panjim or the British merchant ship Ranger these are self evident. They occurred and there were never any F-86 Sabres at Goa airport. The Indian intelligence which had infiltrated Goa since the late 1950's (source: P. Correia and G. Verhof. University of Johannesburg. 2009) knew that there had never been any military aviation at any of the Portuguese territories. It was a lame excuse to justify India's ambitions. Nehru was aware that violent uprisings in Angola (which started in Feb. 4th 1961) and Guinea-Bissau (July 1961) would require a great military effort, far from Portugal or Goa, and he took advantage of this to strike. (In fact, in 1960 Francisco Costa Gomes ordered the reduction of Portuguese infantry in Goa, which numbered almost 10 000 to the 3 300 that were present in Dec. 1961. Source. Sarmento Gouveia. Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86. Lisbon. 1986.)
- No they are not self-evident. They must be cited from reliable and verifiable sources. In this case you will have to show us the "source" . And, it must be corroborated with other sources. Just one source is not enough.
"My specific question here is about your statement that "India claimed this to justify the bombing of civilian facilities. Even if we accept your (unverifed)premise that "Indian infiltrators had verified that there were no military planes in Dabolim, why shouldn't the Indians bomb it anyway. That is a standard procedure in modern warfare meant to deny the enemy the use of civilian airfields for military purposes. And since Goa had just one airfield, it would be used for both civilian and military purposes. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 09:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree.
In war, any airfield is considered a military target even if it has no military aircraft or weapons stationed. If you are invading a foreign country, the first thing you usually do is to incapacitate its airports and air bases, or - if you can - capture them. Diu for instance, is very close to the pakistani border, and a functioning airfield could have easily been used to bring in infantry reinforcements.
Airfields, along with ports and communication facilities are always targets in a war. In the Goa Ops, the Indians effectively blockaded the ports and bombed all airfields and communication facilities.
Also note this: The Indians could have bombed some very real military targets: the portuguese military barracks in Ponda and Verna, as well as at all border entry points. But they did not. Tigerassault (talk) 13:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Goan Aircraft
All other Goan aircraft had been sent to participate in Portugal's campaign in Angola and Mozambique which were involved in a colonial war which started a few months prior. -- deepak d'souza
Angola, not Mozambique. The colonial war had started in Angola in February 61 with a massacre of the white population by UPA rebels. Mozambique flared up only by 1964.
However, the TAIP had seven aircraft in its fleet by 1961 and was operating regular flights to Karachi and Mozambique. If at the time of the invasion, there was just one aircraft stationed in Goa, then we can assume that the others were somewhere else - whether they were in Angola or stationed in karachi is irrelevant and can be verified quite simply. Tigerassault (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
You're only partially correct; Mostly Angola, possibly Portuguese Guinea (now Guinea-Bissau) which were already in the midst of a guerrilla war against Portuguese interests (initiated in February and July 1961, respectively) and most probably Moçambique. By the end of 1961 Portugal was expecting the beginning of hostilities in Moçambique and reinforcment of its troops and logistics there were considered crucial by the Autumn of 1961. The TAIP aircraft were most probably present at Moçambique, since one of the air corridors operated by the airforce DC-6's was Lisbon-Luanda-Lourenço Marques, and TAIP became integrated into FAP's transport squadron, unofficially prior to the invasion, officially afterwards.
An important fact regarding the invasion of Goa by India, is that a large contingent of infantry were sent by General Francisco Costa Gomes, from Goa to Moçambique just a few months prior to the invasion by India, and no doubt the well infiltrated Indian intelligence and Nehru's general's were aware of this when planning the invasion. Costa Gomes refers to the decision to send troops to Moçambique in an interview he had in 2001 to the Lisbon newspaper Público: .85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe, but that does not lead to the conclusion that the TAIP aircraft remained in Africa and did not return back after ferrying the soldiers. The article on colaco.net also does not shed any light on this. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 07:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
None came back, its all on the Portuguese Air Force registers and logs. Note that all TAIP pilots were Portuguese Air Force pilots (Major Solano de Almeida was in charge since 1957, transferred from Lajes Airbase to Goa), the aircraft were mostly the same as the Portuguese Air Force's transport planes, not TAP's fleet, and the priority was Africa, not India. TAIP (and Dabolim, Diu and Damão airports) were an intelligent solution from a small distant country to avoid India's belligerence at the time. You can start at.85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
- Sigh! For the last time dear, please provide some source instead of making statements. You are simply assuming that the planes didn't come back. Unless you have a source that specifically says that the planes didnt come back, you don't have any proof. TAIP flew aircraft to various locations including the gulf states and Karachi which had small Goan communities (again ref to Figuerdo's article on Colaco.net). The planes could have been en-route to any of these destinations when the hostilities began. You cannot assume that just because they were not on the tarmac at Dabolim, that they necessarily were in Africa. And yes, I went through a google translation of the link you provided. The only part of the article that comes close to what you have stateed is that two planes were loaned to Angola. So that leaves another 5 still with the TAIP. --Deepak D'Souza (talk)
1 was at the Goa Airport at the time of hostilities and was used to evacuate civilians. That leaves 4.Tigerassault (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Not exactly, that would leave the fleet to 3 because CR-IAD one of the TAIP Vikers Vikings was wrongly accounted for, it had crashed in Karachi (with no fatalities) on Nov. 2, 1957. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19571102-1 As for Deepak's brilliant Portuguese communication skills (or was it another Bollywood romance?), here's the excerpt: http://www.supergoa.com/pt/read/news_cronica.asp?c_news=521 Nas semanas que precederam a invasão de Goa, Damão e Diu os TAIP montaram uma ponte aérea entre Goa e Karachi para a evacuação das famílias dos civis e militares. No dia 18 de Dezembro de 1961, dia da invasão encontravam-se no aeroporto de Dabolim um avião DC-4 "Skymaster" dos TAIP e um "SUPER CONSTELATION" dos TAP – Transportes Aéreos Portugueses; apesar da pista e a torre terem sido atingidos pelos maciços bombardeamentos da Força Aérea Indiana, durante a noite foram feitas as necessárias reparações na pista que permitiram aos dois aviões levantar voo com destino a Karachi donde posteriormente seguiram para Lisboa.
To keep it short: Two aircraft at Goa, both escaped, runway and tower damaged. If you are curious as for the complete Goan fleet and its whereabouts you can look it up through its international aircraft register code: CR-Ixx. Otherwise contact the Instituto Nacional de Aviação Civil: http://www.inac.pt85.241.129.216 (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'llignore your barb about my Portuguese skills since I don't know Portuguese(and i have already mentioned that I have used a google translation). Anyway, anybody can see that your (mostly unverifiable) edits include more romanticism. Anyway, your source still does not say anything about the other two aircraft. As always your sources do not stand up to scrutitny, o we will keep this edit out. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:23, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Using Google translations says something about the credibility of your research... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.155.184.156 (talk) 11:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- If you have concerns about the quality of my research you should provide English language sources. Anyway, not a single one of your edits has stood up to scrutiny, not even by sources you have provided, so I think you shouldn't be worrying about my "credibility". Take this as a final warning. I'll revert any more personal comments you make. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 19:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Description by a female paratrooper -in Portuguese- of the evacuation of women and children, matches 85.241.129.216's information, claims of destroying aircraft at Dabolim airfield seem to be unfounded (where are the sources for these, pictures, anything?): http://historiaeciencia.weblog.com.pt/arquivo/049503.html; —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.95.187.245 (talk) 15:53, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Indian Casualities
34 Indians ...were killed
- From all sources except yours, the number of Indians reported killed is 34 (possibly more). Maybe you are only including infantry, remember that 5 dead were Indian sailors in the two frigates that were hit by the Afonso de Albuquerque's gunfire (Indian Navy officers told the Portuguese POW's at Bambolim. Source: Sarmento Gouveia. Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86. Lisbon. 1986.). Where are your sources for these figures?
- "All other sources except yours", in this case meaning just one: Sarmento Gouveia? What are these "other sources". Can you point us to these sources. And there is no way for me to verify what Gouviea has written. Apart from that it must match the numbers given by other sources. If not, the reliability of this source may be questionable. Before asking me for sources you should remember that as per wikipedia policy: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material.. That would be you. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 09:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Lets list them out: 11 Indian marines were killed on Anjidiv Island, when they ventured out of cover to accept what they thought was a Portuguese surrender. An unspecified number (can be verified on the bharatrakshak forums) at Diu when the Rajput company attempted to take Gogol at Diu without air support. As for the Goa and Daman ground hostilities, there were a few WIAs, but no fatalities for both the Indians and for the Portuguese. With regard to the naval battle at Mormugao, I know from Portuguese sources that one officer was KIA on the Alfonso. I cannot verify that 5 Indian sailors were killed too.
May I suggest that unless we can list out all individual instances where fatalities occured, we remove the casualties figure and replace with a request to help us out with it. Tigerassault (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Once I've compiled Portuguese casualties, I'll insert them in this discussion section.85.88.137.124 (talk) 10:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Casualities table
Location | Army | Navy | Air Force |
---|---|---|---|
Goa | 4 | Navy | 0 |
Daman | Army | Navy | 0 |
Diu | Army | Navy | 0 |
Anjediva | 0 | 7 or 11 | 0 |
Portuguese casualities
Portuguese Casualties
Goa: 15
Diu: 7 (including two rural guards)
Damão: 3
- All names of Portuguese dead are refered to in the article
- The article "Area Militar" states that India claimed 14 KIA initially (to appear lower than Portuguese KIA), later India claimed 30, and the real amount will never be known. The Indian Navy officers claimed at Bambolim that 5 KIA due to the combat with the NRP Afonso de Albuquerque.
sources: 1. O fim do estado português da Índia, Francisco Cabral Couto, Editora Tribuna da História, 2006. 2. The Portuguese Seaborne Empire, C.R.Boxer, Pelican, 1965. 3. A queda da Índia Portuguesa, Carlos Alexandre de Morais, Editorial Estampa 1995. 4. Em Nome da Pátria, João José Brandão Ferreira, Leya/Livros D’Hoje 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but India isn't exactly Namibia. Its very difficult even for the government here to fudge the KIA numbers in any conflict. Every dead solider will be accorded a state funeral and his family will be given gratuities and the like.... making it very difficult to cover up anything. Also, every event in the Goa Invasion was extensively covered by international press and any casualty figures released would have been closely cross examined and corelated by the press.
The Portuguese casualties at Diu have to be much higher than just three. The place saw an intense ground fight involving artillery and machine-gunfire and was was repeatedly bombed by the Indian Air Force. There must have been more than just three dead portuguese soldiers - otherwise I can't see why the Portuguese governor there surrendered. Tigerassault (talk) 15:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
i just read the following in the article area militar: "De facto, em Diu, um mês após o fim dos combates ainda havia cadáveres de soldados indianos a boiar no rio que separa a ilha de Diu do continente. (ver invasão de Diu)." which translates something that one month after the battle at Diu, the bodies of Indian soldiers were still floating around the sea. All the journalists from all the newspapers and radio stations in the world did not report on such an incredible sight - which makes the article sound suspiciously like propaganda straight from Salazar's office. I think the Portuguese casualty figures must have come from the same place.
Also, the Indian commanders mentioned 5 casualties which would have probably referred to 5 WIA and not KIA. Please upload the scanned copy of the document you have referred to. Tigerassault (talk) 15:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Greetings Tigerassault, here's the link: http://www.areamilitar.net/Analise/analise.aspx?NrMateria=52&p=8
You can also check this Goan article, it accounts for 26 KIA: http://www.supergoa.com/pt/read/news_noticia.asp?c_news=603
Regarding numbers I believe that Area Militar is correct, and it has a great report on the invasion from a Portuguese military point of view, nonetheless a request will be made to the Comissão Portuguesa de História Militar.85.88.137.124 (talk) 17:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- I will accept the source you have given for the Portuguese casualities; I see no reason to doubt them. However, I find it difficult to accept your implication that the Portguese have a more accurate count of Indian casualities than Indians do :-). As Tigerassault has alreay pointed out, the Indian army is no rag-tag guerrilla band. I have not seen any site, Indian or Portuguese, apart from this one which claims that 200 died; and the inflated numbers are more likely to be Portuguese propoganda. Besides, the families and comrades of the supposed "200" dead would have made a ruckus when they came to know that a monument was being built for only a few of them. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Indian force strength
Indian infantry strenght : 45,000.
- Indian infantry of 45 000 (P. Correia and G. Verhof. University of Johannesburg. 2009 also C. Morais. A Queda da Índia Portuguesa - Crónica da Invasão e Cativeiro. Editorial Estampa. Lisboa. 1999. also Sarmento Gouveia. Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86. Lisbon. 1986.) Are you including the reservists that were mobilized also? Regarding Portuguese troop numbers they amount to under 3300 ill equipped infantry plus the sailors from the Afonso de Albuquerque (and you can verify this if you look at the POW count taken at the Bambolim concentration camp that India built to house them, which numbers approximately 3300 also). The Portuguese female paratroopers who arrived at Goa on Dec. 17th, to coordenate the evacuation effort of women and children all escaped on the TAP Constellation and TAIP DC-4.
- Again, the two sources that you have cited cannot be verified. Besides, even if they can be verified, both have been authored by Portuguese writers; one of them being a Portuguese military publication and may exaggerate the number of enemy troops. That is specifically why I asked for neutral(meaning third-party sources). This article in time magazine states 30,000 troops. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 10:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
How exactly do you put a figure on the Indian forces involved in Goa Ops?? Is it the number of troops who could have been brought to bear upon the conflict? The Indians had a standing military force of 800,000 to 1,000,000 at the time, most of which could have been - theoratically - used in the conflict. Is it the number of troops placed at the disposal of the task force assigned the invasion of Goa? Then that would be close to 45,000 men. Is it the troops who were actually used in the operations? That is a far smaller number. I think the forums at Bharat rakshak can assist us with this.Tigerassault (talk) 14:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
As an example, take the instance of the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. This vessel had 1200 men on board and was deployed off the waters of Goa, not to directly engage the Portuguese, but to dissuade the Pakistani navy from interfering with the Goa invasion. Are we including the 1200 complement of the INS Vikrant in the Indian troop count as well? Tigerassault (talk) 14:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
The total Portuguese military presence at Goa, Diu and Damão was limited to aproximately 3 300 including both army and navy present at all three enclaves. The exact figures have been requested to the Comissão Portuguesa de História Militar and will be published.85.88.137.124 (talk) 12:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
- For the Indian strength, I will again agree with Tigerassault's contention that theoretically the entire Indian army could be take as "reserve". And reserves are just that "reserves". They are not counted as combatants till they have called for combat at least once. As I have alredy mentioned only one neutral source puts the number at 30,000. Portuguese sources may, as expected, inflate the number, for obvious reasons, or, may simply not have an accurate count and put in some guesswork. The number of sailors on the Vikrant cannot be taken as combatants because the ship acts as a whole unit. The sailors cannot act without the ship and vice-versa. Besides they are not a part of the army anyway.
- Regarding the Portuguese strength I feel that the figure of POWS (once verified) can be taken as accurate. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
In all, 4668 prisoners are taken, including military and civilian personnel, Portuguese, Africans and Indians (Goans) – numbers as given in the "Operation Vijay" report; 3412 in Goa, 853 in Damão, 403 in Diu.
I will updated the article accordingly.
Infiltration fo "supporters of annexation
The Portuguese followed their actions up with a purge of supporters of annexation, many of whom had been infiltrated by the Indian Union activists(Actually this doesn't make any sense: If they were supporters of the annexation why would they need to be infiltrated :-))
Azad Gomantak Dal
The Azad Gomantak Dal (The Free Goa Party) and the United Front of Goans conducted indiscriminate terror attacks against Portuguese nationals, whether european or Goan( why would they attack theior own, if you can first give reliable proof that they did attack Goans?)
Sabarmati
A Portuguese investigation into the matter revealed that the boat had also been fired upon a seven days earlier, when it deliberatelly strayed into Portuguese waters, in order to provoke incidents that could justify an indian violent response.The deliberatelly provoked incidents were successfull as they lent themselves to foster widespread public support in India for military action in Goa, thus justifying violent actions by a government that advocated non-violence.( Any neutral relaibale sources, which means non-Portuguese and non-Indian which state that this was deliberate?)
Claim (again)
This claim served to justify the bombing of the civilian facilities.(again, netural sources please)
- You repeat the question twice. Remember India bombed Goa's airport which only became a military facility after India invaded the territory; Portugal never had any military aircraft at Goa, Diu or Damão.
- Sorry about that. :-)I wanted a cite for this change:
The Indians believed that the Portuguese had a squadron of ]s stationed at Dabolim Airport—which later turned out to be false intelligence.
to
The Indians claimed that the Portuguese had a squadron of ]s stationed at Dabolim Airport—which later turned out to be false intelligence.
--Deepak D'Souza (talk) 09:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
You tell me...85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:16, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
So you admit you don't have a source for this change, right? Here's the source:
Within a month of her arrival in India, VIKRANT was deployed for the Goa Operation. On patrol 75 miles seaward of Goa, her task was to counter any action by the Portuguese Air Force F - 86 Sabres (which according to intelligence reports were operating from Dabolim) and to forestall any interference by Western NATO allies of Portugal. VIKRANT steamed up and down at high speed for two days on 18 and 19 December, with Seahawk combat air patrols airborne from dawn to dusk. No Portuguese Sabre aircraft or any other intrusive air or naval activity was observed.
You believe what you want.85.88.137.124 (talk) 17:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- No dear, its not about believing what you want. It's about writing encyclopedic articles based on unbiased reliable sources. Since your edit is unsourced, we will not include it in the article. End of discussion. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
INS Vikrant
The Indian light aircraft carrier INS Vikrant was deployed 75 miles (121 km) off the coast of Goa to head a beach landing of Indian Marines,(again netural sources)
- So what was the aircraft carrier "Vikrant", the cruiser "Mysore", the 3 destroyers and 4 frigates doing, vacationing in Goa's beaches? Don't tell me India expected the aging "Afonso de Albuquerque" to face all 9 ships with its max. speed of 18 knots and 4 guns to hold off all 8 ships (all faster and heavier equipped)?
- You are guessing what the Indian strategy must have been in positioning the Vikrant at the harbour. Unless you have a source that specifically says that Vikrant was to be used for an amphibious assault( an unlikely posibility, IMHO) you cannot change it. And your comments are funny, but they do nothing to improve Misplaced Pages. Vikrant was an aircraft carrier not an amphibious assault vehicle. , so it could hardly have been used for a beach landing.--Deepak D'Souza (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
The entire complement of the Indian navy deployed in the locaility was more to dissuade any chances of Pakistani interference than to target the Portuguese. Tigerassault (talk) 14:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, the naval threat from Pakistan due to India's invasion of Goa is absurd. Pakistan didn't even allow Portuguese civilian aircraft carrying reinforcements or ammunition to refuel in Karachi so why would they interfere in a conflict that had nothing to do with their own agenda? The same applies to Portugal's only other so-called ally in the vicinity, Great Britain, who refused bases to a NATO partner at Cyprus, Diego Garcia, etc. (Verify the presence of British observers during the operations, especially aboard the INS Vikrant). India deployed the fleet for naval support and possible amphibious operations during the invasion.85.88.137.124 (talk) 12:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
- Simply stating that India deployed a fleet for "possible amphibious operations" is not enough , irmao, you need a source. Heres what bharatrakshak.com has to say on the navy's objectives during the war:
The tasks assigned to the Naval Task Force were on the outbreak of hostilities, firstly the establishment of effective control of the seaward approaches to the Portuguese territory of Goa (including Mormugao bay and Aguada), Daman and Diu and capture of Anjadiv Island. Secondly, to neutralise the coast batteries defending these ports and sink or immobilise units of the Portuguese Navy deployed inside Goa harbour or patrolling its sea approaches
Ref:
and here is the navy site:
The Naval task was to gain control of the seaward approaches to the Bays of Marmagao and Aguada, prevent interference by Portuguese naval units, occupy Anjadip Island and provide fire support to the troops.
Ref:
There is no mention of an amphibious assault. Nor did I find any other site which alluded to this posibility. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 13:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Pakistan did not allow the passage of reinforcements etc to Goa under international pressure. However the threat of interference was still there. It was considered severe enough, that precautions were taken at Jamnagar Air Base near Diu: "Micky and his staff decided that all precautions would be taken against an air attack. As such a complete blackout was enforced in the airfield and the camp. Gp Capt Godkhindi and Micky also impressed upon the Jamnagar Electricity Board (JEB) that in case of an impending air raid they were to blackout all of Jamnagar.".
You're right about the UK or any other country for that matter. Nevertheless, the Indians decided to be safe than sorry.
You are not right about anything to do with amphibious assaults. An aircraft carrier is used as a platform for air operations and cannot stage an amphibious assault on its own. It can, of course, support such an assault with air cover, or use its air power to assist in blockading a port, but thats about it. Tigerassault (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- Anon's edit is not only unsourced, but also contradicts the navy's stated aims during the war. This edit is also dismissed. End of discussion. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 12:04, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The soviet "dictator"
Leonid Brezhnev ...the soviet dictator urged Indians to ignore the rule of law and western indignation
- Brezhnev: That's the best example you have?
Why are so many Goans in Australia, Canada, Goa, Great Britain, Portugal, South Africa, U.S.A and elsewhere mostly contrary to your points of view? Why is there a movement called "FREE GOA" ?
- Im sorry, but is this supposed to be a citation? In case you dont, understand, a {{fact}} tag means that you have to provide a source for that particular statement, not talk about something else.
So here you have to cite two things:
- that Brezhnev was a dicator
- Brezhnev (specifically) told Indians to ignore the rule of law --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 10:27, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
can we just inform the public that Brezhnev's designation was and what he actually said? There is no need to place judgement on his political methods and on his statement all in the same line.
Didn't you mention somewhere that this wasn't the place for "irrelevant talk"? (a simple question from your Portuguese friend) 85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes , it isn't; and before you ask , that was primarily meant for you. Now a simple question: Do you have any relaible citations for these two additions or not? If you have, we would like to see them; if not , have the honesty to admit that you don't and stop re-adding anything you cannot source. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
All relevant information is resourced, personal commentaries should be out of this site's scope. Most important:
1. The 2 aircraft at Goa escaped contrarily to your false claims;
2. No F86's were ever in Portuguese India
3. The NRP Afonso de Albuquerque, and the Vega, offered the resistance they could;
4. Portuguese casualty figures are listed and sourced
5. Indian casualty figures are unreliable -possibly due to political motivations regarding the invasion and justifying this violent option-.
6. The number of Portuguese military in the campaign was requested and will be provided in full.
7. All Portuguese sources are available publicly, sourced, logged and names provided, from the original sources not only from third reports or books. (e.g. TAP Portugal logs, Portuguese Navy navigation registers, Death registers etc.) Unfortunately the same can't be said of all Indian figures.
On our part no more comments will be made in this section.85.88.137.124 (talk) 12:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
According to your source, after an intense battle in Diu, 200 Indian soliders and 3 Portuguese soldiers were killed, following which the Portuguese surrendered for unknown reasons. Does Misplaced Pages look like the place to vent out 1960s fascist propaganda??? The same can be said for most of your other 'sources'. Tigerassault (talk) 16:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ill take that as an admission from anon that he doesn't have any sources. Again, edit dismissed --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 18:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
NRP Afonso Albuquerque's Combat (Errors in the Misplaced Pages Article)
How can you claim the crew of the Portuguese sloop Afonso Albuquerque were imprisoned as POW's at 13:00 on Dec. 18th 1961 yet they were being barraged by the Indian frigates until 14:00 and replying fire, and still managed to take the ship's captain António Cunha Aragão to Pangim Hospital at 17:15 that day, go to the Naval Club and only surrendered with the remaining Portuguese troops 26 hours later? Were are your sources on this? The same as those who saw the TAP plane escaping 5 hours before it flew? (Sources: A. Cunha Aragão captain's brief, Portuguese Navy, Lisboa, 1962.07.01; also in Sarmento Gouveia, Anuário da Escola Naval 1985-86, Lisboa) 82.155.184.156 (talk) 14:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Maybe it was the same source that stubbornly claimed the destruction of the TAP Constellation on Goan tarmac... But be aware, you'll be labelled a Fascist for not accepting their rhetoric... 85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please tone down your combative stance and stop making everything a personal issue. Be polite! Do you have a source we can verify for the changes you propose? --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 19:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- The ferocity of this discussion seems excessive. I don't see a need for the IP to use terms like 'Fascist' if they have actual sources to offer. Everyone should bear in mind the policy on WP:No personal attacks. Let's find out what the sources say. EdJohnston (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Analyse the text, look at the issue, it's common sense that the imprisonment of the ship's crew doesn't hold for the timeline of events. Anon provided sources, awaiting contrary sources regarding the matter (Ed's, Deepak's, Tigerassault's, anyone)? 85.88.137.124 (talk) 13:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I have reverted your recent updates temporarily. I will need time to verify the source and alkso check Indian sources to verify against the one. Ill need some time over the weekend to do this. And also , please don't assume that Tigerassault and I have written the article entirely. This article has been in existnece for a long time before we editied it so , we are not in any way custodians of this article that you can specifically point fingers at us for percieved inaccuracies in the article. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 04:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- The existing article is full of inaccuracies: Proof? The aircraft, the NRP Afonso Albuquerque, the combats at Diu and the Vega, the numbers that were presented, even the Indian Airforce excerpts are manipulated.85.88.137.124 (talk) 16:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- You are repeating your habbit of making statememtns and expecting others to treat them as "proof". I did not have time to go through the sources but I am less inclined to do so after your latest statement. It is difficult to assume good faith with you given not just that your edits have not been verifiable by the sources you yourself have provided. Your latest insinuation that "Indian Airforce excerpts are manipulated" only reveals your bias. Have you considederd the other side of the coin: that Portuguese sources are just as likely to be "dressed up" in order to make themselves look braver in an unwinnable war? --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 04:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.88.137.124 (talk)
- Analyse the text, look at the issue, it's common sense that the imprisonment of the ship's crew doesn't hold for the timeline of events. Anon provided sources, awaiting contrary sources regarding the matter (Ed's, Deepak's, Tigerassault's, anyone)? 85.88.137.124 (talk) 13:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- The ferocity of this discussion seems excessive. I don't see a need for the IP to use terms like 'Fascist' if they have actual sources to offer. Everyone should bear in mind the policy on WP:No personal attacks. Let's find out what the sources say. EdJohnston (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Please Do NOT Erase Sources
These are credible online sources, for anyone's verification as long as they can understand Portuguese. Some have very clear graphical information and photographs.
- Acção da Marinha Durante a Invasão do Estado da Índia Revista da Armada
- Goa, a Invasão Área Militar
- 50 Anos Depois, Recordando os TAIP e Dabolim, Francisco MonteiroSuper Goa
- Como Eu Vi a Invasão de Goa, Francisco MonteiroGoan Causes
85.88.137.124 (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- http://dossiers.publico.clix.pt/noticia.aspx?idCanal=566&id=93525
- http://www.deccanherald.com/content/33077/civilian-war-memorial-come-up.html
- http://www.colaco.net/1/Anjadiva.htm
- http://www.areamilitar.net/Analise/analise.aspx?NrMateria=52&p=8
- http://www.areamilitar.net/Analise/analise.aspx?NrMateria=52&p=8
- http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Trans2Trimph/chapters/17_air_arm1.htm
- http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1950s/Kore.html
- http://indiannavy.nic.in/goa.htm
- All unassessed articles
- Unassessed Portugal articles
- Unknown-importance Portugal articles
- WikiProject Portugal articles
- B-Class India articles
- High-importance India articles
- B-Class India articles of High-importance
- B-Class Goa articles
- Unknown-importance Goa articles
- B-Class Goa articles of Unknown-importance
- WikiProject Goa articles
- WikiProject India articles
- C-Class military history articles
- C-Class Asian military history articles
- Asian military history task force articles
- C-Class Indian military history articles
- Indian military history task force articles
- C-Class South Asian military history articles
- South Asian military history task force articles
- Selected anniversaries (December 2008)
- Selected anniversaries (December 2009)