Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:58, 25 March 2010

Traveler's Dream

Traveler's Dream (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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This group and these artists fail notability. The only prong of WP:MUSIC they possibly meet is prong 1 (and I see no other basis for meeting general notability). Their self-released CDs have been reviewed a couple of times. One member was also the subject of a blurb in the college magazine (which does not qualify for prong 1) of the school at which she works as an administrative assistant. The only profile of the group that is listed in the article (or that I could find searching) is in a local magazine not available online and only available at several locations in and around Lafayette, Indiana. While they have played some apparently large fairs and historical music festivals, their past performance listing on their website does not indicate any sort of a tour (let alone a tour that was covered by RSs). I've cleaned up some of the cites and language on the page, but in doing so I have not been convinced they are notable for wikipedia purposes. They might be a great group, but I don't see the notability to justify an article. Novaseminary (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Novaseminary (talk) 22:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• I disagree. They are very notable. I'm new at Misplaced Pages lingo, but even the material already in the article establishes at ;least two of the prongs, with only one being needed. I only recently discovered this article, and see my notes regarding additional material. Also it appears that the person who mentioned possible deletion removed substantial notability related material from the article. I tried looking at their user page...it is hard to look at due to them immediately erasing everything (substantial material) from their user page and discussion page. Further, as I noted, there are other substantial elements to them and this article (particularly historical, academic) that give it excellent and useful content.DougT1235 (talk) 01:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• I just checked further and the same person who put this here in this deletion discussion just made a huge round of changes and also deleted important notability-related references. Something is not right here. DougT1235 (talk) 01:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Doug, you can click on the "history" link next to the article's name above to see all of the edits I--and every other editor--have made to the article; nothing is being hidden. In the interest of full disclosure, here is a link to the last version before I made my first edit to the article tweo weeks ago (edits which, I would note, even the article's creator appreciated as mentioned on the talk page). And here is the composite diff of all of my last round of edits (before you jumped in). You will note that some of the cites that appear to be removed were cites that were improperly added to the references section by hand (without the ref tag) and which I replaced with proper ref tagged notes. One should always assume good faith. Other than removing playlists that do not support the assertion made (and as explained, one reference that I again removed, doesn't even mention the group at all), I mostly cleaned up existing references using the cite template. I also added URLs, authors, and other info to the existing cites. I did this so editors who want to participate in this AfD won’t have to try to figure out what has been cited and in the hopes that I would be able to confirm notability.

But to the point of whether they are notable for Misplaced Pages purposes or not, which two prongs of WP:MUSIC do you think the group meets? You did make some mention of notability with comments on the talk page. In a difficult to follow way because of how you interspersed your thoughts throughout the talk page, you mentioned something about somebody named "Reid Lewis" and an historic canoe trip with this comment. That does not appear to be the Michael Lewis the article describes. But if it is, please put in a citation. If he is notable, that would go a long way to making the group notable. And, I wonder if you have the right person in the Newsweek article from 1976 that with this edit you just added as a source regarding Denise Wilson’s participation in a group called Bon Jolais. According to the Misplaced Pages article we are discussing, she toured with the group Bon Jolais from 1987 onward. It would be odd if she were written about in 1976, eleven years before she toured with them. Perhaps an article title and author would help clear things up. Novaseminary (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I was not the one who put in the content about the Midnight Special broadcasts and so I do not know the specifics. But in a note about both "good faith" and an example of what you have been doing to this article, you essentially said you only checked (the three months of) 2010, and because you didn't see them there you deleted the notability-related reference a second time. All in the middle of deletion discussion that you started! How can you come to that conclusion about the other years? While one could argue that the reference needs to be more specific, imperfection is not grounds for deletion of a reference, doubly so (both times) without prior discussion. And then, based on you not finding it in the 5% of that reference that you checked, you make the statement above that "one reference that I again removed, doesn't even mention the group at all" which, to put it very kindly, is putting an unsupported statement into this discussion.

The cited 3 pages in Newsweek magazine were photos of Denise Wilson performing. The first one was on the "table of contents" page of the magazine rather than in the article. The is certainly relevant cite to establishing the beginning of her performances in the USA, although the wording might need to be changed to reflect that rather than Bon Jolais.

In my discussion section notes on the LaSalle Expedition re-creation. I didn't write or imply anything about Reid Lewis being Michael Lewis. What I wrote about was Denise Wilson participating in the European and Egypt tour associated with that expedition / re-creation. DougT1235 (talk) 11:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Folks, this isn't a general discussion board. So I will try to keep this to a minimum. We should focus on what WP guidelines this article could be notable under. Doug, please do put in a specific link to whatever playlists this group has appeared on. The link I removed points to over ten years of individual playlists on individual pages. It would be link putting a link to time.com as a reference to somebody having appeared in Time magazine. As for the Newsweek magazine, as I requested before, what was the title of the article? Was it about her or just a photo that included her (in high school or maybe junior high school, I presume). Please do correct the citation to reflect what it is actually supporting or correct or add text that the citation does support. That is perfectly appropriate (and good!) during an AfD. I realize you are both new, and that is just fine, so for more on how to comment on AfDs like this, please see WP:AFDEQ and the section below that one. Novaseminary (talk) 14:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'm the original creator and most frequent editor of this article. On March 111th I made my FIRST edit on a different article (Carrie Newcomer), which reverted a large deletion by Novaseminary and I made the following comment. "Undid prior revision (which) deleted 4 external links with no specific reason cited, only a vague reference to a policy. Policies are to improve articles, not to detract from them". Within a few days Novoaseminary placed on-article top of article issue tags on every (or nearly every) article that I recently edited. And on this article they placed 5 top-of-main article issue templates, including a nomination for deletion, plus a 6th on the image used, plus about 20 "reference needed" tags within the article itself. And, just before and after nominating it for deletion they removed large amounts of notability related material. The "Midnight Special" broadcast note by DougT is typical of this. Essentially large deletions of notabiliity related material and references for minor or not established reasons, with no prior discussion. While even without this the article indicates notability, but trying to recover it from this barrage, plus make additions plus dealing with the deletion nomination is a huge burden for a volunteer to handle quickly in available free time. It is much easier to destroy than to build. Due to all of this it will take a few weeks to get the article with material added and in good shape for a discussion such as this. This is not how Misplaced Pages is supposed to be. North8000 (talk) 14:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

CommentWhile not terribly relevant, I would note that I deleted a handful of ELs that violated various specific parts of WP:ELNO from Carrie Newcomer with an edit history noting why. North8000 reverted, as he mentioned. I then re-removed each of the offending links as a separate edit with a specific pointer to the guideline prong each violated. It struck me that the editor was unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages, yet bold (which is, of course, generally good), so I followed his edit history and saw the scores of edits to this article and took a look. The article, as it existed then was in rough shape. As one can see, the references were added by superscripting numbers to point to hand numbered references. The page also read like an advertisement for the group and I suspected a COI. In fact, the group's home page has a prominent link back to this article ("Learn more at Misplaced Pages!"). So I reworked the text, added fact tags (only after it became clear that the primary editor did not seem to understand the problems). On the talk page I asked for the primary editor (or anybody) to explain why the group meets WP:MUSIC. I was not convinced, so I made the nomination here.

Back to the reasons for deletion, it doesn't matter which version of the page one looks at, it is only the group's inherent notability that matters. I suggest that the group does not even possibly meet any prong of WP:MUSIC other than prong #1. They have not been on a covered, national tour, their CDs are self-released, etc. When looking at the references provided, I saw that one was from a college magazine (which are explicitly mentioned in prong #1 as not fulfilling it) and another seemed to be a local free magazine that did not have a link. The rest were reviews, or even less relevant, playlists from local historical music programs. Taken together, I think these do not come even close (assuming the articles say what they are purported to say since they are not widely available to verify) to meeting prong #1 (or any of general notability criteria). The Newsweek article that this other new editor happened to have lying around from 1976 is a possibility for a RS, but we don't know even the title of the article is or what it dealt with. The individual it supposedly mentions, Denise Wilson of this group, did not graduate from college until 1981 (per the article, which does not cite anything for that proposition, so it may not be true). It is not clear what this potential source refers to or why she is in it. So, even if it is a valid RS dealing with the right person, we don't know if its coverage was non-trivial to meet prong 1 (and it is still only one, not multiple, as required by prong #1, but I admit it would go a long way toward prong #1 if Newsweek writes about somebody).

Novaseminary (talk) 14:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

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