Misplaced Pages

User requesting enforcement

Cla68

Users against whom enforcement is requested

• William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. WMC readds single, self-published source (personal webpage of a university professor hosted on the university's website) that is extremely critical of Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley
2. Kim D. Petersen then fights on the article talk page for inclusion of the material and source.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Correct the behavior

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• Misplaced Pages is strict about enforcing its BLP rules after several real life cases have caused harm to BLP subjects. There is no leeway for misbehavior or abuse in this regard. WMC and Kim have a long history of BLP abuses. WMC usually makes the bad edit, then Kim tries to justify it through wikilawyering on the talk page. Please make them stop.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen

Statement by William M. Connolley

Statement by Kim D. Petersen

My comments on the talk page should stand by themselves. As for Cla68's claims: No i haven't fought for inclusion. No, i do not have a "long history of BLP abuse". This is a simple content dispute, which is being blown extremely out of proportion. I disagree about the BLP claim (and still do), and strangely enough, this matches rather precisely some principles that i wrote down for the ArbCom case, but didn't submit, since it became obvious that ArbCom would not make content or policy decisions - but rather focus on behaviour: Here. Since it is 1:47 AM in my timezone, i will probably not reply anymore, unless i can't fall asleep. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen

This is an unreasonable request. The material in question is the claim that someone called Abraham made a presentation criticising the views of someone called Monckton. I kid you not, that's it. No-one has proposed giving any details of the presentation. This is not liked by several editors, but it seems to be common ground that it is true and verifiable. In other words, there is nothing contentious here and therefore no BLP issue. If anyone wants to see a genuine BLP breach regarding the subject of this article, I can very easily give a demonstration of what one would look like, so that you can tell the difference for future reference. --FormerIP (talk) 23:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Clearly a violation of a number of Misplaced Pages policies. First, it was a self-published source, in addition to being a primary source. Second, the source accused the subject of the article of making up a false quote, clearly against BLP policy unless. The entire presentation was an attack piece. The BLP policy states to Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research); that relies on self-published sources, unless written by the subject of the BLP (see below)... The self-published source, in and of itself is grounds for removal. GregJackP Boomer! 00:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

BLP also states "We must get the article right". Trying to remove the fact that there was notable comment on the opinions of the subject by someone who knows what they are talking about isn't consistent with that.©Geni 00:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Guys, the admins aren't going to rule on anything (except the most egregious conduct and this isn't it) with ArbCom about to announce their proposed decision. Face it, the probation has come to a screeching halt. I suggest that the filer withdraw this RfE. BTW, ArbCom asked us to take a break from these articles, so I don't understand why anyone's working on them right now. Find some other articles to work on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I hope that the admins will consider placing a temporary injunction prohibiting WMC and Kim from editing any BLPs, including the talk pages, pending the results of the ArbCom case. Even when the proposed decision is posted, it will probably still be several days at least before all the Committee members finish voting. Cla68 (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Look, I have a solution for everyone. Please click this link and improve the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, when I clicked on it, I got Climate change as viewed by creationists in communist Israel... --FormerIP (talk) 01:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

@Wordsmith: There hasn't been a ruling from the admins for the last 7 RfEs. Not only has there not been a ruling, there aren't even any admins discussing the issues. Not one active discussion. Sorry if I've broken some protocol by pointing out the obvious. If I have, let me know, and I'll redact. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment -- This may be the most egregious BLP violation I've seen on wiki. And several hours spent arguing for its inclusion is stunning. I am unfamiliar with the enforcement mechanism in this area, but given the seriousness of this BLP violation, it is disappointing that admins have not looked in and/or taken decisive and firm action in this case. Do you guys ever use the BLP noticeboard, or do you just bring issues here to the probation enforcement? Minor4th 02:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

As is his wont, Cla68 has included a long string of diffs many of which are of little or no relevance. Administrators handling the case should be careful to examine each diff. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that BLP doesn't allow the Abraham comment. But this is a content dispute. It should be raised at BLP/N, not here. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Lar is not an uninvolved admin

Lar, being in an adversarial role to both KDP and WMC in the Great Climate Change Omnibus Case of 2010, where he explicitly proposes a topic ban for KDP and a year-long ban for WMC , is not neutral by either the common sense definition of the word, by previous ArbCom precedence, or by the definition in Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Curious about this. So are you saying that if an admin, at any point in the past, expressed an opinion that a certain poster engaged in behavior deserving of sanctions, then that admin is forever after an "involved" admin for all purposes and cannot participate in enforcement discussions about that editor on totally unrelated events that the admin was probably not even aware of until he read about it on the enforcement page? What about an admin who has expressed an opinion that either of these editors did not deserve sanctions in the past -- is that admin also forever tainted because he is not neutral, as evidenced by his having an opinion in the past? It seems like that's what you're saying but that can't be what you mean. Minor4th 06:05, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that an admin who is currently, at this moment, part of an ArbCom case and is proposing drastic measures against certain editors, is not uninvolved. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I know you said currently but I thought you just chose the wrong word -- that opinion that Lars had about sanctions was days or weeks ago, and it was about incidents that are not related to this enforcement, right? I could understand the concern if Lar was in a current content dispute with these editors and was using his admin tools to win, but that is not the case. There's no requirement that an admin be neutral to be uninvolved -- if an admin is completely neutral how could a decision ever be made? By the way, why does it matter whether he is uninvolved or not -- he is apparently not even recommending sanctions according to his comment. He merely said it was not nice. You started this whole new section, so it must be important in a way that escapes me. Minor4th 07:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

"Currently" was chosen advisedly. Lar's suggestion were 4 days ago in a dispute that has been running for months (and for several weeks in Arbitration), the arbitration case is still open, and Lar's proposed sanctions are his current proposal. Why this ultimately matters is beyond me, but, if you check the history, it is apparently paramount that only uninvolved admins comment in the "Results" section, no matter what they say. People have filed ArbCom cases about this... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification on currently -- I suppose we view "uninvolved" differently. It seems like youre saying that an admin who holds a negative view about these editors' bad behavior is disqualified from commenting. Or maybe it's the section heading that is throwing this into the realm of the bizarre. What is your opinion on the behavior Lar is commenting on though? (irrespective of where he placed his comment). I hope youre not in favor of edit warring or BLP denigration. Minor4th 11:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• This is the latest in a long list of Lar stretching the rules for himself on this page. He seems to think yet again that any deep long lasting conflicts with certain editors (often with him in a non-admin role) does not count whilst simply not editing certain articles makes him Mr neutral (uninvolved). Polargeo (talk) 10:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • This isn't about me. This is about KDP filibustering to block consensus. Trying to make it about me is yet another example of inappropriate tactics to avoid the actual issue. BozMo has also proposed things in the case, that doesn't make him involved either. You guys know better. However that doesn't stop you. Which is why there's a case. ++Lar: t/c 10:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Lar. Correct it is not about you. So do not make it about you by commenting where you really should not be commenting at present. This seems to be your usual method but I hope it can stop right now. Polargeo (talk) 11:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• The below comment chain is a response to a comment by WMC placed in the wrong section, (first diff below), moved here (third diff below), edit warred to retain (second diff below), moved here again and then removed by WMC who apparently is more concerned with having it in the section he wants than having it be visible. ++Lar: t/c 12:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Nope, you're not. ++Lar: t/c 10:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Further, you're not allowed to edit war when others correct you. Don't do that again, please. You have been repeatedly warned not to, and blocked when you did not heed the warnings. ++Lar: t/c 11:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

This is again a case of "Lar is involved because I say he is involved" where the RFC/U did not arrive at such a conclusion. I guess if people claim it is true it becomes true? An interesting thesis. Collect (talk) 11:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No it is a major case at arbcom currently running with many serious and valid points that need to be answered. This is not a standard ATren "I say you are involved" or even a simple Lar "you have edited a CC article so you are involved" case so please do not dismiss this in the usual way. Any admin worth their salt should recuse themselves in these circumstances or face some serious come back. Polargeo (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

He is only involved because the members of the Church of Global Warming want him excommunicated because he enforces the rules. GregJackP Boomer! 12:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

GJP this is potentially a WP:Battleground addition to send this back to a them and us. When in this case I am not a them or an us but someone trying to get wikipedia right. Let us carry on in a more productive way. Polargeo (talk) 12:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

That was not directed at you, but a general comment on the state of affairs in this area, and if you interpreted it to mean that it was intended for you, my apologies. It just seems to me that this has broken down into two basic camps, with a smaller third camp that just want the rules applied to all. I certainly did not mean to imply that you were out of line in your comment. GregJackP Boomer! 12:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Question for those who think this is not a BLP vio

Several (Geni, NW, Wordsmith, BozMo) have questioned whether this really is a BLP vio. I would like them to justify here why it is not. Specifically, answer these two questions: (1) is the material contentious? (2) is it self-published? If you respond yes to both, then it's a slam dunk as far as BLP concerned: it is to be removed immediately. If you respond no, then please explain your reasoning. Note that the material in question triggered legal action, and was only ever "published" on Abraham's personal webpage at the university. ATren (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I realise you aren't asking me, but I thought I'd inject a few thoughts anyway. One issue is whether it's biographical - whether information is subject to BLP depends on the subject of the material rather than the location. So that's one hair worth splitting. The other, as BozMo pointed out, is that the material is covered by reliable sources that are not self-published. So the information can be reliably sourced to sources that are BLP-appropriate. Which makes this more of a formatting issue than anything; cf. WP:BURO. Guettarda (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda, the source I removed was unpublished and contentious. Read BLP -- that's sufficient for removal, and the policy language is not just firm, it's draconian, filled with bolded terms and references to proclamations from Jimbo. In any other situation this would be a non-controversial removal, but here it's opposed. Your classification of this very serious issue as simply "formatting" is startling. ATren (talk) 14:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Assuming this was a BLP issue (which is less than clear-cut, since it was a discussion of ideas, not of people), it was not inappropriate to remove it. But this request wasn't filed to discuss your behaviour, was it? The fact remains that the material was discussed by non-SPSs. Once that was clear, it became a formatting issue, a content issue, but not so much a BLP issue. Assuming, of course, that it ever was "biographical information about a living person". Guettarda (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

You are simplifying the matter too much. The answer to both of your questions is "yes". However, there are other matters to consider. The full content of the addition is "In response to Monckton's 2009 appearance at a symposium sponsored by the "Minnesota Free Market Institute," University of St. Thomas professor of Thermal Engineering John Abraham prepared a 73-minute slide show titled "A Scientist Replies to Christopher Monckton," rebutting all of Monckton's claims." Let us exclude for the moment the final clause (specifically the "all") of the sentence, which I agree is bad practice as it takes sides in this real world dispute but also could have been solved without any escalation whatsoever. The purpose of BLP is to provide both truthful and verifiable information on subjects so we don't have repeats of incidents like the Seigenthaler incident or the situation involving Mr. Brandt. Is it true that Abraham did such a thing? Is it verifiable that he did such a thing? Is it the case that some material in biographies of living persons, depending on context, does not have to be held to the same standards of sourcing as other material because it does not focus on biographical details but rather incidents? If the answer to all three is yes, I believe the spirit of what BLP is trying to prevent is met. NW (Talk) 14:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

NW, read BLP -- sources such as this are to be removed on sight. There is no gray area here. BLP policy is clear on this and it supercedes all other analysis, including WP:V. Again read BLP: the spirit of that policy is basically draconian suppression of anything that is contentious and unpublished. In the first few sections alone it says repeatedly, in unambiguous language that frequently includes bolding, that such material is not permitted. Period. Full stop. This unpublished source triggered legal action between the parties. It's hard to imagine something more controversial than that (or as forbidden from a BLP policy standpoint). This is a slam dunk, and your reading of the spirit of the rule is frankly wrong.

Now, if the wording and sourcing had been different, then we might have been discussing different issues like weight and verifiability. But the BLP issue was so straightforward that all those other concerns were irrelevant. Or should have been. ATren (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

So what if it led to legal action? That doesn't make it impermissible to add it to the article. If anything, it only makes it more notable. In any case, WP:BLPSPS says to avoid using a self-published source as "sources of material about a living person". This is not a source of material about a living person, even though it is in a biography. Therefore, normal WP:SPS rules apply, which this qualifies under as the material is self-published by a notable academic and scientist. NW (Talk) 15:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

NW, this is splitting hairs. Monckton's name is prominent throughout the entire presentation, and in fact he starts the presentation by discussing Monckton's qualifications in a way that would imply that Abraham thought Monckton to be unqualified. You don't consider that to be directed at Monckton himself? If someone posted a long presentation about your views in that format, questioning your qualifications and then presenting dozens of slides criticizing your arguments and your arguments alone, are you seriously saying you would not feel it was directed at you? ATren (talk) 19:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Your concern might be relevant if the presentation was being used as a source. But since it's not, at least in the current version, it's an irrelevant issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

ChrisO, it was used as a source - that's what this request is about. I reverted the source and the text out, citing BLP, and it started a huge discussion on talk where editors were claiming it wasn't a BLP vio. ATren (talk) 19:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Let me refocus: BLP is meant to ensure that we have verifiable information in our article. Linking to the scientist's website is acceptable to use to verify that he criticized Monckton, as that is where he did it. Whether or not the criticism is notable is another matter. NW (Talk) 20:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

"BLP is meant to ensure that we have verifiable information in our article." No, that is precisely what WP:V is. If WP:V covered it, we wouldn't need WP:BLP. BLP policy exists as a separate entity because the standards are different. Where WP:V has gray areas, BLP is black-and-white; where WP:V stresses verifiability and "getting it right", BLP stresses solid sourcing and protecting the person. I think you are misinterpreting policy here. ATren (talk) 00:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I guess we differ in our intepretations/opinions then. NW (Talk) 12:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

@NW Aren't you overcomplicating things? I thought question 3 would be something nice and easy like Is it notable? And probably question 4 should be If being the subject of a Guardian blog post makes criticism notable enough for a BLP does that mean all objections to using such blogs are now gone?. Or maybe it should be Is non-notable criticism appropriate for any article, regardless of whether or not it is a BLP? Or how about When Jimbo pushed for BLP rules did he envisage people adding non-notable criticism to BLPs, backed up by admins telling them it was ok if it wasn't to the BLP part of the BLP? Weakopedia (talk) 14:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

@ATren, If it was a BLP vio and you had a simple option to fix it or remove it, which would you do? If the exact form of words and that link was all that was available I would have deleted them. But it looks unimpressive that people warred over the removal rather than discussed the simple fixes possible. Unimpressive all round really. You might as well go the whole hog and say "the article contains a BLP vio lets delete the article". Or "Misplaced Pages contains a BLP vio lets shut down Misplaced Pages". Ok, come here and complain about it but I don't think you get a lot of sympathy when more constructive and quicker avenues to deal with the BLP bit had not been tried. --BozMo talk 15:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

@Weakopedia: I think, and that was the point of the discussion, that the question of "is this notable", is quite separate from the "is this a BLP violation" question. But, you can't discuss "is this notable" before you have "is this a BLP violation" solved. Dunno if that makes sense - but that is/and was my view. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

This whole business is really quite silly and it shows yet again two destructive behaviours which need to be curbed - the lack of any serious effort to discuss the fixes mentioned by BozMo, and the instant resort to a probation enforcement request (which, frankly, is an abuse of this page). The fixes required are obvious, merely a matter of providing reliable sourcing. Following BozMo's comments I have added a new version of the Abraham para which uses reliable sources and presents no BLP issues - see . Hopefully that will resolve the immediate problem here. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

ChrisO, the text that was inserted 3 times over the past few weeks (and reverted most recently by WMC) had language and sourcing that was quite obviously a BLP vio. Whether there are other wordings/sources which would fit is another question, but the text as it was inserted (repeatedly) was clearly a violation. Now, if someone else had presented alternate sourcing and wording (they did, quite far into the discussion) we could have perhaps evaluated it, but most of the discussion was denying the obvious BLP problem that existed. That's why the request went up, and your insinuations otherwise are misleading. ATren (talk) 19:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Having said that, this text has serious weight issues and probably shouldn't be included anyways, even if the BLP problems are addressed. This criticism was barely notable. As a counter example, consider Mann's hockey stick. If you go to Michael Mann's page right now, there is barely a hint of the enormous controversy generated by that theory (warranted or not, there's a ton out there). If well-sourced hockey stick criticism is removed of Mann, how can this barely notable unpublished criticism be kept in here? But this is perhaps a question for the talk page. ATren (talk) 19:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

It's disappointing but perhaps predictable that Marknutley is trying to edit-war the revised paragraph out of the article, claiming BLP violations again , , and declaring his intention to continue edit warring indefinitely. I think a block would be warranted at this stage. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

ChrisO: You're also edit-warring over contentious material in a BLP: A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, I followed the sourcing suggestions of BozMo (and I see also NuclearWarfare) and added a rewritten version of the disputed paragraph, avoiding the BLP problems that some were claiming with regard to the sourcing. I subsequently reverted once. That does not make an edit war. Marknutley's three reversions when he's on a 1RR parole are more difficult to justify. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• In my view, it would have been perfectly defensible to cite the Guardian and mention that Abraham had produced a slide show rebutting Monckton, but adding the self-published slide show to the BLP was not. It is not the purpose of BLPs to argue science, or to show why BLP subjects are wrong. --JN466 23:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and I agreed with the earlier views that the sourcing was inadequate and the wording poor - which is why I changed both to provide reliable sources and neutral wording (see here. Note that the two Guardian articles I cited give both sides of the argument (i.e. Abraham's that Monckton is wrong and Monckton's that Abraham is being malicious and his demands of Abraham). There is of course room for a discussion about weighting, but I don't see anyone objecting on undue weight grounds in the earlier discussion. This seems to be a new objection now that the sourcing and wording problems have been resolved. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Note: ChrisO added the contested source back in. MN reverted, WMC reverted, MN reverted, MN got blocked, and SirFozzie protected. At least he protected with the contested source out, but it's a shame it had to come to this. If Marknutley added an unpublished criticism of the hockey stick from a skeptic scientist to Michael Mann's BLP, he'd be immediately sanctioned. But he's sanctioned for removing a bad source here. It's a joke. But this will be my last comment on the matter; it's not worth the trouble anymore. I've spent 3 years battling these same half dozen editors on obvious BLP transgressions, and nobody seems to care. So I don't either. ATren (talk) 00:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

No, that's completely wrong. I did not "add the contested source back in". I rewrote the material in its entirety, sourced to two Guardian articles. The contested source was not used as a source for anything. See for yourself. Nor was Marknutley blocked for removing a bad source. The block was on him rather than other editors because "a) it wasn't a BLP violation, b) they did not break an edit warring parole, and c) they did not signify their intent to continue edit warring even past that". See for yourself. Please check your facts before jumping to conclusions. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

@ NW, in response to his comments below and elsewhere: NW, either you accept the wording of WP:BLPSPS, or you don't. If you don't accept it, argue your case at the WP:BLP talk page; but while WP:BLP policy stands as it is, this was a WP:BLP violation by the letter and spirit of that policy. Arguing otherwise is, with respect, the equivalent of putting your head in the sand. --JN466 10:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the source is not ideal (which is why I replaced it) but I don't think the issue is as black and white as you portray it. WP:BLPSPS does not seem to fit very well with self-published academic work by experts in their fields. If Professor Y, a published expert in his field, publishes a detailed critique on his website of a work by Professor Z, that doesn't really seem to fit into the BLP framework. The subject of the critique is not the individual as a person but a work by that individual (a book, speech, TV show, whatever). On the other hand, if Professor Y uses his website to post biographical claims, that clearly would fall within the BLP framework. But I can't see how a critique of a work, as opposed to biographical claims, would be caught by BLP. Suppose in this case that Professor Abraham had published a scholarly critique of a book by Monckton, rather than a speech. Would that make any difference? If so, why? -- ChrisO (talk) 12:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree it feels different if it is a book, rather than a speech; it is less personal. Even so, I believe we wouldn't cite a self-published critique of a scholar's book in the scholar's biography; especially if it is a hostile critique which casts doubt on the author's integrity and competence, as is the case here. Apart from BLP, it comes down to WP:SPS, "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer." But I appreciate you tried your best to find a way for the passage to work. --JN466 00:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

If you approach Misplaced Pages with a black and white view of things ("the information is in a biography of a living person, therefore all aspects of WP:BLP must apply", for example), then you are only setting yourself up for failure. That statement I wrote in parenthesis is not true. NW (Talk) 12:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change/Evidence#Request_for_a_statement_on_BLP_policy. --JN466 23:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Topic rest

I agree with Lar (below) that all parties to the recent BLP incidents in the CC area should give CC BLPs a rest until the arbcom decision. I don't agree with some sort of oddly contrived sanction to enforce this, maybe it could be enforced for the parties involved in the recent edit war on the Monkton article but to cast this wider as a sanction would be an over the top and messy solution for the sake of just a day or two. I come to this conclusion because it is just getting crazy following all the twists and turns and not at all helpful in any way. I still think Lar should not be commenting in the section below. Polargeo (talk) 15:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used by others to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved administrators, will be moved to the section above. Adminstrators engaged in extended discussion or debate, especially if not directly related to the proposed outcome, should strongly consider using the above sections.

• A Quest For Knowledge above states that admins are unlikely to rule on this issue because there is an Arbcom case on. This is false. ArbCom has not nullified this board, and it is still the place to take disputes that are not resolvable through the usual channels. That said, I think this issue isn't a clear-cut BLP violation, but a content dispute. I would suggest remanding this case back to the article talk pages, with instructions to play nice with each other. The Wordsmith 01:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
• That's one possibility. Another would be to point out that KDP seems to be arguing against all comers in quite the tendentious way, and the participants ought to call consensus, and if they're reverted again, ask for protection. Taking it to talk is good. Trying to filibuster isn't. I see why most folk would see this as a BLP violation. And why many folk would be frustrated with the level of argumentativeness from KDP. Sanctionable? Maybe not. But not nice. ++Lar: t/c 02:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Addendum. WMC needs another sanction/warning/admonition about pointy behavior and about edit warring to preserve pointy behavior. And if that doesn't do the trick, a block. ++Lar: t/c 11:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
• I must admit I approached this by belting up my gun and setting of to arrest people abusing sceptic BLPs (again). I found a link to the views of an associate professor (aka "lecturer" in the UK) which were notable and discussed around the place. In my view the wording of the mention was a little POV ("rebutting" etc) the link probably should not go to the presentation (which isn't peer reviewed or anything and is a primary source) but to some of the coverage of it but all in all I am a bit disappointed that everyone went for the mattresses without much attempt to find a compromise text. But I think this is at heart a content dispute where some constructive approach from both sides would help. As For Kim, per one of my children, I would describe him as a "determined" editor, tenditious being a more polemic word but there are other determined editors in CC too. We should close this and send it back to talk. --BozMo talk 08:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
• I am inclined to topic ban all participants to the Climate Change ArbCom from all Climate Change topics, including talk pages and only excluding reverting obvious vandalism and socking (any ip or new account), until there is a result. I seriously doubt if the world outside WP would be harmed by not having articles updated for a week or so, and it would put an end to this type of behaviour. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • A list of people you would ban please? NW (Talk) 13:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
    • All parties to the ArbCom case; specifically anyone who has been complained about, for any reason. Everyone can take a step back, and go and do something else. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
      • An idea somewhat like this is being mooted on the evidence talk page. I am coming round to this idea as being possibly workable, since I don't think we are going to get consensus for the "right" set of blocks and sanctions. Some sort of scheme that allows folk so identified to bid for others that also are (3 bids and that person gets added too) might not be totally unworkable although I think it needs more elaboration as an idea, but since it's temporary only? ++Lar: t/c 14:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
• What BozMo and The Wordsmith said. Describing this as a BLP violation is simply wrong. While The Guardian piece might have been a better reference than the professor's website and there is the matter of whether it is necessary to include this information at all, neither is a matter for this board. Oh, and with regard to tendentious editing: nonsense. If we did that, we would have to apply the same to Cla68 for arguing that The Hockey Stick Illusion is a reliable source on multiple pages. Both are simply the respective editor's opinion, and just because they can argue their point well doesn't mean their are acting disruptively or tendentiously. Caveat: I have not seen Cla's edits since last week and am going by memory NW (Talk) 13:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• Suggest a close as stale. As below, is there anything else that could be agreed to after this sat for a week or so? I think not. As below, I propose to do so barring any objection in the next 24 hours. ++Lar: t/c 19:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
  • There being no objections, enacted. ++Lar: t/c 22:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

User requesting enforcement

User:Marknutley

Users against whom enforcement is requested

• BigK HeX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so

1. BK Reverts prwatch into a BLP
2. BK Reverts an advocacy group into a BLP
3. BK Reverts a blog into a BLP
4. Mark Nutley reverts suspect sources out. Note edit sumary.
5. BK reverts Mark Nutley, against policy i might add.
6. Mark Nutley reverts BK hex claiming blp exemption due to blogs and advocacy ref`s being used.
7. Talk page thread begins.
8. BK reverts these sources back in. And still has not gone to talk.
9. Mark Nutley reverts with the edit summary rv as before, you can`t use blogs and advocacy sites in a blp STOP
10. BK reverts refs back in warning mark nutley he has done 3r`s. BK has also broken 3r with this revert.
11. ...

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

I won`t bother to notify meself

Discussion concerning Mark Nutley and BigK HeX

Statement by Mark Nutley

I have been tidying this article up for a couple of days, removing obviously unreliable sources for a BLP Blog Blog PR Watch and tagging others such as this Tagging deadlinks fixing deadlinks using wayback And also removing Primary Sources . I was surprised that BK began to reinsert the obviously bad ref`s back in and reverted him. Note my edit summary . BLP is quite clear on this, any content poorly sourced must be removed. Reverting these out does not count as reverts. That article is still full of primary sources which need to be removed. mark nutley (talk) 13:06, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment in response to BK I never mentioned WP:LIBEL and i am unsure were that has come from. I removed sources which were a breach of wp:blp and wp:rs policy. The content was not in my opinion libellous and did not need removing, but i`ll go check, the sources however did need removing which is why they were removed and cn tags left in place. I did also remove content which had been sourced to blogs. I would prefer for BK to explain why he edit warred blog and other crap ref`s into a BLP mark nutley (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by BigK HeX

I'm just amazed on so many levels....

A 1RR editor is reporting himself ... after three reverts?

And, it also seems pretty silly for this report to be submitted looking like this, and the editor apparently going off to bed or whatever.

I guess, most importantly, I have no clue why I'm in any report here, as I was unaware of any sanctions going on with the climate stuff. I'm somewhat annoyed to be in this request for enforcement, when, apparently, mark nutley's comments indicate that he is aware that this is new to me .BigK HeX (talk) 06:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Now that there's an actual report to respond to, I'll say this. It was quite a while until it dawned on me that User:Marknutley was trying to refer to directives such as WP:LIBEL, as the justification of his actions. My slow realization was caused by the fact that he didn't actually remove any of the article material he deemed as contentious -- he removed only the citations for these allegedly libelous statements. Being that I was puzzled as to why he went around leaving the article less sourced, I asked him to explain on the talk page. Frankly, I've seen this editor's application of guidelines, and in many cases it has been pretty suspect, as, for example, the first source that I saw was a ref which basically was being used as opinion of the authors. Later, I stated that the publication in question (by a group called the UCS) is an RS for opinions of the UCS and he responds that they can't be used as an RS for the opinions that they hold. When I started editing, I thought there might have been a good chance that the refs could have been removed accidentally. Then mark nutley started deleting the refs only, still with little explanation as to why the refs needed to be removed imperatively (but the material previously supported by the refs was good enough to keep). I kept requesting an explanation, as I couldn't ascertain his thinking, but got very little even when he did start posting on the talk page --- I decided that very little was going to be forthcoming from User:Marknutley, based somewhat on previous interactions with him, which have made me very unsure of his level of English comprehension (which is also odd to me since he seems to be able to convey himself fine in English when he chooses to).

Anyways, it started to become clear that my disagreement could quickly escalate into a strange edit war over leaving the article less sourced, so I decided that it would defuse the situation to find alternative sources and start an RSN, which has indeed seemed to remove the contention discussed here. BigK HeX (talk) 17:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Mark Nutley and BigK HeX

This is pretty clearly both a BLP violation and a 3RR violation by BigK HeX. The sources are not RS, in that one is a blog and the advocacy group cite is to a press release. None are acceptable for a BLP, especially when it is negative information. MN is in compliance of his 1RR due to the fact that he was reverting a crystal clear BLP vio. There is no such explanation for the reverts by BH. GregJackP Boomer! 12:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

In the real encyclopedia, MN would be fully in the right here, but this article actually resides in Bizarro Misplaced Pages, where wrong is right and right is wrong. In Bizarro Misplaced Pages, poor sourcing is encouraged, BLP doesn't apply, and enforcing BLP policy gets you blocked. In this particular example, MN removed blog sources for criticism, which is a big no-no in Bizarro Misplaced Pages. Blog sources for criticism are the foundation of Bizarro Misplaced Pages, where RealClimate is the New York Times and The Times itself is considered unreliable and unusable. Mark should know this, and I hope he gets a nice healthy block for his transgressions. ATren (talk) 14:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment to BigK Hex - you welcomed yourself to the drama with your repeated insertion of weak disputed citations that were not WP:RS and your failure to follow good practice like WP:BRD. IMO you are the one most responsible for creating this report , that is why you are surprised to find yourself in this report. Off2riorob (talk) 08:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's an idea. How about the section for "Statement by BigK HeX" contain just those statements. Regardless, it's pretty asanine to "request enforcement" of a sanction that I was unaware of ... but it's unsurprising that you miss that point. BigK HeX (talk) 15:14, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's an idea, you accept your major part in this disruption and accept your editing was in the generally accepted style that is referred to here at wikipedia as disruptive edit warring. Off2riorob (talk) 15:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

MN has a point about some of the sources being introduced in this article. However, I question whether this is the right forum, as the article involves someone who comments on many subjects, not just climate change. Do we use these enforcement forums every time someone breathes a worth on the subject and there's an edit that is objectionable? Must every content dispute end up here? ScottyBerg (talk) 16:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

This process set up to address CC issues, broadly construed. This is clearly an appropriate venue. GregJackP Boomer! 17:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

ScottyBerg is right that this should not be used as a forum for every objectionable edit - as with every other article, one starts with clear edit summaries, escalates to discussions on talk pages, and pursues other elements of DR if discussions on talk pages do not reach a satisfactory conclusion. The other elements of DR include posting to content specific noticeboards (RSN, BLPN) as needed, but the usual escalation to ANI is supposed to come here instead of there. BigK HeX has not been aware of this board, and clearly isn't aware of the history, if astonished that someone self-reports (this is the third example I can recall OTTOMH). Frankly, I think a little more discussion at talk and noticeboards was called for before coming here, but others may feel it was inevitable that it would end up here, so why wait. --SPhilbrickT 19:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Rlevse told me on Nuke`s talkpage that this article fell under the CC probation. As such i have brought it here. BK mey not have known about the probation but i am sure he knows not to edit war, nor insert unreliable sources into a BLP. That is why he is here. I am here as i am a 1r restriction and want it clarified that i did not break it. I do not want another spurious block due to people not looking at the evidence properly mark nutley (talk) 19:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand that you included your own edits because you wanted clarification that your edits were fine. And I'm not disagreeing that this is the right forum once the need for escalation occurs, as the article is clearly a CC article. My only point is that one shouldn't come running to this board whenever there is a dispute, but try to work it out through other means first. While it was mildly contentious, I thought there was some reasonable progress at the RSN, and it is possible that discussion on article and individual talk pages, as well as relevant notice boards, might have been sufficient to resolve the issue. Or perhaps not, but it is helpful to remember that this board is not intended as the first resort for disputes, but as an alternative to ANI when other options fail.--SPhilbrickT 21:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

• I have nor looked at the edits in question, but on a purely technical note, let me quote Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to these provisions; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines from the probation conditions. I don't think this has happened here, and neither has Steven Milloy been tagged. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes(to StS and SPh as well, just above). Especially if the article talk wasn't tagged. See my proposed close below. ++Lar: t/c 22:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
    • "Editors are expected to be aware of sanctions on articles, assuming the article talk carried the appropriate warning message." - I find that misleading, since the article did not, in fact, carry the appropriate warning message, either as an edit message or as a talk page banner. I suggest you strike that part to not leave a wrong impression --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:18, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
      • Would that it were so. Editors have been punished even where no clear notice exists, and told thatt they ought to have noticed motices which were not there (and which, in one case, were placed after the infraction), and not been cleared of wrongdoing. I take it you are proposing this as a change from current practice - it surely doe not represent current practice. Collect (talk) 11:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
        • I'm not aware of any such case. Please clarify. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
      • You're right. I've taken another cut, see what you think. ++Lar: t/c 00:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
        • Better, but still somewhat incongruous with how things have happened before. Only a very few number of relevant articles are tagged with edit notices, and its not reasonable to expect all editors to read talk before editing, or to note a probation header if they do - do you go through all the boxes in the top? I don't. We have previously informed new editors in the region with friendly notice to their talk page, recorded at Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Log#Notifications. That seems to be a lot more robust. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
          • • Point. But it seems I just can't satisfy you. Do you agree with the general theme of no sanctions for anyone? That's the important bit to me. Propose a close taking your concerns into account, here in this section, and if it's good, I'll copy it down and support it in lieu of mine. This needs closing, it's small beer in the grand scheme. ++Lar: t/c 15:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
              • I think "We take BigK HeX at his word that he was unaware of the existence of the CC article probation in general, or that this article might be subject to it, and no sanction is imposed on any party" without further comments to be sufficient. Why use more words when less will do? It's obvious that he is aware of the probation now, and someone can put him onto the notified list. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Making sure to notify editors is great (and certainly much more fair than hitting unsuspecting ones), but IMO a prominent Edit Comment Warning is likely still necessary on tangential articles like this one. For this case, in particular, Climate skepticism is only one facet of the many things that Steven Milloy objects to. So far, it seems the only true criteria for whether some future un-templated article falls into sanctions is whether it is prone to become a WP:BATTLEGROUND between the editors whose names I see in the various sanction requests on this page, and without some warning on the article, it this type of criteria seems subjective enough to snare quite a few people. BigK HeX (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you should have been warned by MN (and the warning logged) about this after the first revert so you were aware. That apparently was not done. This whole thing needs to be closed no action but with some lessons learned. ++Lar: t/c 16:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, how does one add an warning to the edit page for articles like this? BigK HeX (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It actually goes on the talk, which, if you are reverting, even once, you should be adjourning to immediately to explain why and justify. That's common practice everywhere on wiki, not just in this area. ++Lar: t/c 16:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

As mentioned by someone else though, it also may be common practice to skip the menagerie of boxes at the top of every talk page. Some sort of warning near the edit window itself is probably more foolproof, though talk page templates would minimally cover the bases (officially, anyways). BigK HeX (talk) 16:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Here`s what is common practice, not edit warring blogs into a blp, try to remember it mark nutley (talk) 17:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Given your participation in any edit war here, you'd be well advised to take a look in the mirror, champ. BigK HeX (talk) 20:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Lar's proposed close. Arkon (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I changed it so your agreement may not be operable. ++Lar: t/c 00:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Just reaffirming my endorsement fwiw. That's how I took it from the start. Arkon (talk) 01:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The correct approach when one believes that an edit has been made contrary to WP policy is to notify that editor of the relevant policy and pursue the matter through the RSN, BLP, NPOV or 3RR noticeboards. For special cases like article probation and 1RR, the editor should be notified of this. From mark nutley's statement, this was not done and therefore this discussion thread is premature and should be closed. TFD (talk) 23:02, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this is stale. BigK HeX is continuing to harrass Marknutley, repeatedly accusing MN of misconduct on an article talk page: A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

It is certainly acceptable to complain to another editor after he has repeatedly requested input for a change of name when there is no consensus for it and to repeatly make the same arguments to people when it is clear they are not convincing. I have made my views clear on the name change and my opinion will only change if new evidence and new arguments are provided. I do not appreciate that virtually the same discussion is raised by mark nutley over and over again, requiring me to restate the same objections I had before. TFD (talk) 19:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

It's true that Mark opened an RfC, but the current round of article title discussions, I believe, was started by someone else. In any case, article talk pages are not the proper venues to discuss editor conduct. If BigK HeX has a problem with Mark, he should take it up at his talk page or file an RfE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning BigK HeX and Mark Nutley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used by others to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved administrators, will be moved to the section above. Adminstrators engaged in extended discussion or debate, especially if not directly related to the proposed outcome, should strongly consider using the above sections.

• Suggest this be deleted for now, and restored by Mark when he has the details and diffs ready to share. ++Lar: t/c 02:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC) Has been filled in now, the above suggestion is no longer applicable. ++Lar: t/c 22:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
• Editors are expected to be aware of sanctions on articles, assuming the article talk carried the appropriate warning message. Nevertheless I'm inclined to take BigK HeX at his word that he was unaware and close this with an admonition that now he is aware and now he needs to be more careful and cognizant of the restrictions as next time ignorance will not be accepted, and no other action. Thoughts? ++Lar: t/c 22:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
  • StS points out the above is a bit misleading; and he's right. The article talk wasn't tagged and apparently still is not. Here's my actual proposed close: (Arkon's endorsement should be disregarded as it is prior to this wording):

  Editors are expected to be aware of sanctions on articles, assuming the article talk carries the appropriate warning message. In this case the article did not, and as of this writing still does not. That should be rectified by any concerned editor. We take BigK HeX at his word that he was unaware of the existence of the CC article probation in general, or that this article might be subject to it, and no sanction is imposed on any party. BigK HeX is cautioned that such ignorance only works one time.

  Thoughts? ++Lar: t/c 00:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with the gist of this but I am concerned that it reads as "You didn't know about the climate change probation, so you will not be sanctioned." To my mind this is insufficient; if I had come across this as a current edit-war in an AN3 report, I would likely have blocked BigK HeX for edit-warring regardless of the existence of the probation. I think any close needs to make clear that this pattern of editing is unacceptable in any Misplaced Pages article; that BigK HeX has not been blocked is due both to his ignorance of the probation and to the fact the edit-war was stale by the time of this report. CIreland (talk) 02:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

• Good point. ++Lar: t/c 03:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Suggest a close, no action, as stale. At this point is there anything else we could do? I doubt it. I will do so barring any objection in the next 24 hours. ++Lar: t/c 18:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

support close as stale. Life is too short --BozMo talk 19:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

So enacted. ++Lar: t/c 22:43, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I should flag up the fact that I've raised an issue at AN/I - see WP:AN/I#Malicious sabotage of RSN comments by Cla68. Since this noticeboard has completely broken down - every request gets closed as stale - I've taken it there, particularly as the issue needs to be dealt with quickly. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

People might think it's ok to insult people for regarding their diagnosed medical disabilities - it's well known I'm dyslexic. Perhaps it seems that I've got this super tough exterior, and it's ok to poke fun about me mixing up words, or reversing letters. Oh, hahaha, let's laugh at the cripple. Let me put this not lightly - GregJackP can go fuck himself - forever. I walked away from the keyboard for hours after reading his outrageous shot at my disability, and Lar's disgusting, disreputable defense of it, but I didn't calm down - I'm just as furious as I was hours ago - so, in summary, Lar and GregJackP can go fuck themselves, and thank you for standing up for me, WMC. With that, I'm out for quite a while. Go fuck yourselves! Hipocrite (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Uhm, are you sure GJP knew you are dyslexic? I agree it would put the thing into a different light if he did, but without that it comes across as rather a lot more harmless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I really don't know what's going on here or what sort of history there is between these two editors, but I interpretted GregJackP's comment to be a veiled swipe at ChrisO, not Hipocrite. But I could be wrong. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it started out from Greg picking up a typo Hipocrite had made in spelling a Latin word, with an ironic remark how one could interpret that as a sign of poor education, so yes, it was directed both at Hipocrite and at Chris in some way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:13, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

This is getting completely out of hand. I suggest that an admin with no previous participation in this area indiscriminately block everyone who has participated in the case (yes, including me) until the committee announces its proposed decision. The fact that the blocking is indiscriminate means that there is not necessarily any imputation of misbehavior. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Like we're really going to find an uninvolved admin willing to block a couple dozen (or more) editors. We can't even find uninvolved admins to enforce these requests. As ChrisO has correctly pointed out, this page has completely broken down. Unless I've missed something, there has not been a single request that has been enforced since May, and already LessHeard vanU is proposing to do nothing. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

My advice to everyone? Sit tight, shut up and wait for the ArbCom. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is going to come of posting requests on this page any more. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Three points:

• I've interacted with Hipocrite for many months, maybe years, and I had no idea he was dyslexic.
• Even if he knew, the issue was a misspelling, not a transposition of letters, so what does that have to do with dyslexia?
• Why is nobody outraged at what GJP linked to: ChrisO mocking someone's intelligence and education? Of course, ChrisO must know that Mark himself has a disability which might cause him to type carelessly sometimes, right? That attack by ChrisO was much more personal and vicious than GJP's comment. Does that mean MN can now raise hell and tell everyone to fuck off, like Hipocrite did?

This is yet more evidence that a few problematic long-term editors have turned this entire topic area into a mockery. If the committee doesn't deal with ChrisO, Hipocrite and WMC at a minimum, nothing will be solved. But of course, they probably won't deal with them, they'll probably sanction people like MN, Lar, Cla and me -- the ones who are trying to fix this mess -- and give the troublemakers yet another pass. ATren (talk) 21:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent my comments about Marknutley's edits to List of wars between democracies (an article far outside this topic area). There is no disability I can think of - unless you count ignorance as a disability - that would cause an editor to claim here that the Greek city-states weren't democracies (where does he think the concept came from?), that 18th century Britain and America weren't democracies and that the Confederacy wasn't a democracy. You would think that someone wishing to write about a topic would make the effort to learn something about it first. It doesn't indicate anything about Marknutley's intelligence, nor about any disability he might have, but it does show that at least in this regard there's a serious gap in his knowledge and his willingness to research an issue beforehand, which is reducing his effectiveness as an editor. In the context of an RfC about an editor who's plainly been driven to exasperation by Marknutley's edits, that's a perfectly valid observation to make. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Chris, you are treating that topic and your disagreement with mark as a personal battleground. Commenting on the editor's supposed level of intelligence or knowledge is unacceptable and you should know that. Cla68 (talk) 22:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

@ Cla68, why are you jumping to this battleground assertion? It's assuming good faith to take it that Mark lacked knowledge of Greek history when he made that incorrect assertion, are you suggesting that Mark was fully aware that he was asserting nonsense? Mark's been given a lot of leeway on the assumption that he's getting things wrong by accident, which is as required by AGF. Please also assume good faith in ChrisO's attempt to communicate the problems in a discussion where Mark's interaction with another editor was at issue. . . dave souza, talk 22:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Now I've heard it all -- ChrisO insulting Mark's intelligence and education was nothing more than Chris' assumption of Mark's good faith. Are you serious? Is this really what this has come to -- because that is a remarkably twisted, distorted bit of reasoning there and is unhinged from reality IMO. Did I misinterpret something in that post? Please correct me and accept my apologies if I have. Minor4th 23:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's ChrisO's statement, "I can understand why PMAnderson might get frustrated at having to deal with someone whose knowledge appears to be well below high school level." Dave, are you really defending this comment by ChrisO? Cla68 (talk) 23:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Bizarro Misplaced Pages. ATren (talk) 00:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'm glad to know there is a name for this phenomenon I have observed in this topic area. Minor4th 01:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Please read comments more carefully, Cla68 and Minor4th, that says nothing about Mark's intelligence. As ChrisO also said, Mark's edits show "an absolutely abysmal knowledge of history", but many people of high intelligence know nothing of history. In my recollection, what makes dealing with Mark so frustrating is his confident and persistent assertion that his misconceptions are correct. So, please take more care to avoid making unwarranted accusations. . dave souza, talk 00:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow. Minor4th 00:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

And looky here, Dave criticizing GJP for correcting a misspelling at the same time he thinks nothing is wrong with making insinuations about another editor's intelligence! Yes, they are that blatantly hypocritical here in Bizarro World. ATren (talk) 00:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Again ... Wow! Minor4th 01:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment-- I'm sorry for Hipocrite that he was hurt by GregJackP's commentary that was actually directed at ChrisO, but there is no way Greg would have ridiculed a disability if he had known. I think the assumption of bad faith on H's part is over the top, but I understand being upset even though it was an innocent edit on Greg's part. Greg's comment actually was more of a statement about how trivial and unimportant spelling errors are and not the sort of thing that an editor should be chastised about.

• William M.Connolley should not be deleting other editor comments, and a week after coming off probation for exactly that behavior -- you really have to wonder what he's thinking. A warning is appropriate if he does not agree to an extended self imposed restriction, and if it happens again, I think Greg's recommended sanctions are appropriate.

• I'm concerned about Chris' comments to MN, as ATren says that MN is also affected by a disability that might influence his edits. Either way an apology is in order for that from Chris. I think it's improper and mean -- sorry Chris, I assured you I would work hard to assume good faith on your part, and in that spirit, I am assuming you did not realize how your words came across or how mean that kind of comment can be and ask that you think about that if you're inclined to say something about someone's intelligence or education in the future. Minor4th 01:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)