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Wind Jet Flight 243

• Articles for deletion/Wind Jet Flight 243

Wind Jet Flight 243 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Article about a non-fatal air accident which fails WP:EVENT by virtue of having zero evidence of historical notability or significance. MickMacNee (talk) 23:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, for now. There seems to be this bizarre idea on AfD that no deaths = no notability, but that has no basis in policy or in practice. It is verifiable, has received significant coverage in third-party sources, and there's no harm in waiting a few months to see if anything comes of it. It's unreasonable to ask for evidence of historical significance 3 days after the fact. Kafziel 00:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Make your mind up - is it notable already, or are you asking for permission for it to hang around because it's not doing any harm, so that we can assess it later on? The first approach to deletion is perfectly valid, but the second one isn't. MickMacNee (talk) 00:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Hmmm. I'm going to have to break down your vote here further and respond, because it looks like we already have a game of follow the leader emerging.

  "There seems to be this bizarre idea on AfD that no deaths = no notability"

  It's nice to know you think that, but it's quite irrelevant, as I did not nominate it for deletion for that reason, it is provided for background information only. The relevant page is WP:EVENT, which has no such requirement, or exclusion, for that matter.

  "but that has no basis in policy or in practice."

  per the above - it was an irrelevant point in the first place, so there was no need to start dredging up other irrelevant articles off the back of it to somehow imply that this article has some sort of accepted precedent behind it. It does not.

  "It is verifiable, has received significant coverage in third-party sources,"

  this is simply a WP:VAGUEWAVE....presumably to WP:N, but without a link, we (and others already), are just guessing at what you might mean.

  "and there's no harm in waiting a few months to see if anything comes of it."

  this is a classic non-argument - WP:NOHARM. There is every harm in turning Misplaced Pages into a news article waiting room. The Article Incubator is where we keep the articles that have potential, but cannot be shown to be worhty of inclusion yet....or better yet, your sandbox, if you are volunteering to take responsibility for it....

  "It's unreasonable to ask for evidence of historical significance 3 days after the fact"

  It is unreasonable to expect Misplaced Pages to temporarily host articles so that they can hang around just on the off-chance they might become notable in a few months, and then expect others to go around cleaning up the inevitable mess and leftover cruft such a misguided approach to the deletion policy would, and does, create. There is nothing unreasonable about this at all, this is how Afd works all day every day, and it is precisely this sort of article that WP:EVENT was written for, so you can hardly ignore it if you think it's requirements are inconvenient.

  MickMacNee (talk) 01:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep agree with Kafziel. Shiva (Visnu) 00:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  You really don't have any opinions of your own on the matter? None at all? Are we playing follow the leader here today? MickMacNee (talk) 01:17, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Please be calm and respectful - do not badger/insult other people just because they disagree with you. Shiva (Visnu) 01:37, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  This is an Afd. It is not disrespectful or badgering to expect you to have your own opinion on the matter. Given that your only contribution here is to agree with a contradictory rationale, whose actual intention w.r.t. the issue is still open to interpretation, I should think that it is more respectful for you to realise the deficiency of making such a vote, and correct it, rather than implying wrongdoing in others. MickMacNee (talk) 01:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  I strongly advise you to adhere to WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA out of respect for Misplaced Pages and your fellow Wikipedians. Rudeness and belligerence only drown out the opinion you are expressing. Shiva (Visnu) 02:13, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  And I strongly advise you to read the pages you are linking to. If you think for one second I am going to let you wave around NPA as if that is remotely relevant here, you are quite wrong. MickMacNee (talk) 02:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
• Keep as per sound reasoning provided by Kafziel--Wikireader41 (talk) 00:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Arguing that it is both notable right now, and that it should be kept to see if it becomes notable, is not sound reasoning in the slightest. It is positively unsound reasoning infact. You would have more chance of having your vote counted if you didn't just piggy back other people's thoughts, when it's not even clear what policy or guideline is backing up their rather vague and WP:ATA-like opinions. MickMacNee (talk) 01:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

well Mick if you looked at your track record at recent AfDs and mine it would be very clear who has a problem getting their !votes counted. And let me boldly predict that there is no way in hell this article will be deleted.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Treating it as a game as ever WR. I'm guessing you put as much thought into this Afd as all the others based on the evidence. I am pretty sure that whatever happened in those other debates, the outcomes really had nothing to do with anything you might have said, which is generally not a lot, as you can only seem to manage these sorts of 'per x' votes anyway, and then fall back on this ridiculous grandstanding act of yours. MickMacNee (talk) 02:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, even if no body died in this accident, the 123 people are very lucky to be alive. Flight 243 touched the ground at only few yards from the rocks and sea and this accident could have been a disaster. If we don't want to consider the 20 walking wounded we could at least look at the fact that an Airbus 319, worth millions of dollars (not italian lire), wont ever fly again because its structural damages. Also, we need to consider that this accident was caused by "windshear", very common at Palermo airport (between sea and mountain), and the problem could happen again. Have a article/record on wikipedia of this type of accident has more than one reason to exist.--Sal73x (talk) 01:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Well yes - it is entirely possible, and appropriate, to have a record of the incident on Misplaced Pages, without actually having an article on the incident. The idea that an aircraft was written off (citation?) means that an incident is automatically notable, is an entirely disputed one at present - can you imagine the implications of having an article for every single airliner write-off on Misplaced Pages? It's a recipe for disaster just like this incident, and it's simply not our mission. That content disaster can hopefully be avoided with a bit of common sense, and adherence to WP:EVENT, otherwise, why did lots of editors spend the time writing it and getting it approved, for it to be ignored? If there is an issue with Palermo and windshear in particular, then that should be being treated within a separate article, not by documenting every near-disaster on it's own page, but I don't see it, if it already exists. And if it doesn't, then creating that article rather than defending this one, is what should be under consideration. MickMacNee (talk) 02:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Delete - We do not have articles on bus crashes. I fail to see why this is any more notable. Not enough media coverage either. I really do not understand why there are single articles on these minor incidents. It would be much better if there was a monthly or yearly article to document in reasonable detail each crash. BritishWatcher (talk) 03:22, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep This accident is notable for these reasons; It is the first major accident suffered by Wind Jet (and therefore the worst/most significant). The accident closed the airport for almost two days. Should the aircraft be declared a hull-loss, it will also be the first in-service hull-loss accident for the A319 (another A319 was written off in a maintenance accident in 2003). Mjroots (talk) 05:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Note Wikiprojects notified. Mjroots (talk) 06:06, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
  • The closer should note that Mjroots is the article creator, and that this definition of notability is completely of his own making, it has no support in any Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, and does not even have support of the Aviation project. The factors he describes here are not even worthy of their own article according to WP:AIRCRASH, the Aviation Project's own notability essay. He has also completely failed to show how any of these facts are considered worthy of notice by external sources, rather than in his own personal opinion. MickMacNee (talk) 12:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. The fact that we don't get articles about disastrous bus crashes means we need those, not that we should delete articles about serious aviation incidents. __meco (talk) 07:19, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Do you think that is a remotely realistic stance? See here for an indication as to whether articles on serious bus crashes are needed or not, it's an Afd on the most serious bus crashes in the UK in recent memory, and it's not heading for a keep so far. MickMacNee (talk) 12:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• Merge to the airline's article. The problem with this being a stand-alone article is that all the coverage comes either from industry-specific sources or from the Italian press. If it had sources from around the world it may be worth keeping, but I don't think it passes WP:EVENT without it. That said, some of the content should be included at the airline's article and the title retained as a redirect. Alzarian16 (talk) 09:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Note article also has sources from USA/Canada and Ireland. Mjroots (talk) 11:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Yeah, not sure how I missed that. The trouble is that it isn't really significant coverage, at only 100 words. I can't see any US coverage, and the Irish stuff won't open (probably a problem at my end). The only other international source I could find was this, but that's also very short. I'm forced to conclude that the majority of the interest in this has been limited to national and industry-based sources. Alzarian16 (talk) 11:32, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
• Keep as per Kafziel. Edward321 (talk) 13:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - complies with the criteria at WP:AIRCRASH in that it is "Airline - First, deadliest, or most significant accident for a particular airline" - Ahunt (talk) 13:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

  Sorry, but no, this is completely wrong, and should be totally ignored by the closer. What the essay actually says is: "If the accident or incident matches criteria only in this section, then coverage should normally be on the article about the aircraft or airline". MickMacNee (talk) 15:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

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