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Lede

I saw your talk page comment at Wehwalt (he's my mentor).

At the bottom of the lede, I would take away the comment "with a statue to that bank robber turned revolutionary leader, and also be the site of a monument to and the grave of the head conspirator, Kamo." and change it to "with a statue of Lenin, as well as a monument and grave for head conspirator, Komo."

Revised. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

In terms of just facts and writing, I wonder are the statues together? Next to the grave? When was it named Lenin square, when were the statues (and grave) put there?

Not exactly sure of the placement. Need to get further information on the burial of Kamo and the look of Lenin Square. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The page as is, tells a story. You accomplish your purpose, better by being dispassionate. It's damning enough as is. Also, the kind of parenthetical harumph you had at the end of the lede is just bad writing as it is repetition.

TCO (talk) 18:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

TCO, it is just a first draft of the lede.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I won't nit at it then. ;)

It is a cool story and a lot of good info. Reading about bank robberies is kind of fun.  ;)

TCO (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think people are going to love this once it is done. I consider myself very well versed in history and I had never heard of this. TCO, why don't you play with the text as well? I have to go out in a few.

I also consider myself well-versed in history and this amazing story also slipped my attention. When I stumbled across it, I couldn't believe that it didn't have a wiki article about it since it seems to have been a major event. I think that others will really enjoy this story and I hope that we can make this a great article before it goes live. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

A couple of points.

The (beautiful!) image of Tblisi in the 1910s is going to need evidence it was published pre 1917.

That will be tough since I just found it in Commons. Remember (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Not impossible. Library of Congress may have info, or it may be in a pre-1917 book available on google books. Somewhere on the net there is an image search engine, you plug in an image on a web page and it tells you what other web pages it appears o.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I will look into it. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

You simply cannot have 40-odd refs to a 16-page block of text. It's going to have to be broken down by page number.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that was probably going to have to happen. Darn. Remember (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's why you brought me in, I assume! To point out stuff like that--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Very true. Remember (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done. Remember (talk) 16:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

playing with the text

My first inclination is to do something about the currency markers. I will check the MOS, but I can't believe that wikilinking US dollars is needed, or that both the symbol and the words should be used. Sorry, that this is a nit. It's just my personal style is to flit from small to large issues, and that I find from messing around with small stuff, it at least gets me into the text. TCO (talk) 19:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Any help both great and small is appreciated. Remember (talk) 19:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the currency edits. The conversion looks correct from my untrained eye and I think it reads much better. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed the currency conversion section and just relied upon a books estimate of today's US Dollars. Otherwise I thought it was original research.Remember (talk) 12:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Question - other editors to review

Are there any other editors that work in this area (e.g., old Soviet History, bank robberies) that you all think I should get involved in this article before it goes live? I just want to make sure that this the best article it can be. Any thoughts on anyone who could help out in that effort would be most appreciated. Remember (talk) 20:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

User:BorisG has weighed in on the Khrushchev article and may be of help. Also, what is your thought on day month year format rather than month day year? I get endless grief at the Khrushchev article because it is month day year. See WP:MOSDATE, which says you should begin as you mean to go on.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I am happy either way on the date issue. As for BorisG, should I contact him or do you want to contact him? FYI - I am going to have to stop working on this page soon for awhile since I have to do other work, but please continue working on it while I am away. I should check in sometime later tonight or tomorrow to see what has happened. Remember (talk) 20:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I like day month year, since it's easier to read: 27 November 2010. The two numbers are separated by a word.

You could ask for help at military history also. Personally, I would hate to have a bunch of people messing with "my" article!  ;)

TCO (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I have changed the date format. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

No, we're not that close, you can contact him as the lead editor of this article, Remember. I advise DMY as well, just to save later grief.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I will contact BorisG. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

He doesn't appear interested in working on this at this time. Remember (talk) 19:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I would hate to have more than four people actively involved with this article. Three would actually be enough, but I could live with four. I happen to agree with Heinlein's comment that more than three people can't decide where to have lunch.

I agree that a core group of people working on it is better than loads more. I think I will asking people after BorisG. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to that article from Russian Review? I envy college students their access to unlimited online articles. When I was in Vancouver, I went to do some research at Simon Fraser University and they let me on one of their computers and I just went wild, emailing myself copies of stuff. Unfortunately, I don't have Vancouver in my travel plans anytime soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No immediate plans, but I have been thinking about becoming a "friend" of my local state university library, which would give me improved journal access. Would not do it for Wiki, but so I can look up medical articles or the like for myself. TCO (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

No, but that article in the Russian Review looks like it could be great. Kamo is fascinating and I need to add more information about his post arrest. He evidently feigns insanity, is deported to Russia, escapes prison, is captured and sentenced to death, has his sentence commuted to 20 years, and then is freed sometime after the Russian revolution and then buried (for some reason which I don't know why) in Erivan Square. So any good sources we could find on him would be useful. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Other references

It seems like a lot of the detail comes from one book. My first concern looking at the article was to wonder if it was some obscure Georgian-Russian conspiracy theory. When I saw the worldwide coverage, I knew different, but just telling you initial reaction.

A. Suggest adding a few sources at least to the intial reporting of the bombing themselves, like NYT, or even just some general biographies of Stalin (or histories of Bolshevism), that at least refer to the robbery and Stalin's role, with a couple sentences. Obviously the bulk of the detial will need to come from that source, you have, but would just be better to make people feel that the event itself occurred. Also, I'm interested if the Bolshevik role is generally accepted or not, was accepted at the time, or at least alleged, etc.

Will do. Remember (talk) 12:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

B. Not sure how to do this in the "wiki sense", but encourage you to take a look at that book and evaluate its quality (is it by a journalist or an academic, does it come across as accurate in other areas, etc.) TCO (talk) 21:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I have checked up on Young Stalin and the Secret File of Joseph Stalin and they both seem very reputable. Remember (talk) 12:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

A few comments

An infobox would be nice. There is a news event infobox that I find very useful under cercumstances like this.

I am generally pro-infobox so I am happy to include one. I am working on the best one below. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

• "Tiflis bank" in the lede seems a bit odd. I understood it to be the Tiflis branch of a St. Petersburg bank, just from a Google Books preview (I've ordered a used copy of Young Stalin)

Agreed. I will look to clarify. Also, wow, I am amazed that you are going to buy "Young Stalin." Thanks for the help! You are going above and beyond! Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. It was a transportation between the Post Office and the Tiflis Branch of the Russian State Bank. Remember (talk) 13:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• I am not thrilled with the structure of the article. In my opinion, sections or subsections of text should be in the area of 3-5 paragraphs. Accordingly, the long section on "Bank Robbery" should be subdivided in some way while the short, 1-2 paragraph sections should be combined Avoid one sentence paragraphs.

I will try to revise. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Let me know what you think of the revision. Remember (talk) 14:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Had Stalin taken the nickname "Stalin" then? If not, it might be wise to introduce him as his Georgian tonguetwister birth name and add (who would become known as Joseph Stalin). I would still casually refer to him as Stalin after that, no point in confusing the readers.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:38, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I will revise. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I added a note to explain the issue. Let me know what you think. Remember (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Avoid the construction "would be" as a substitute for a past tense verb. Yes, I know it is a way of indicating the passage of time in the text, but reviewers hate the construction. I will take it out where I see it.

Agreed. I will revise anything you don't. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Remember (talk) 14:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• The whole signals from Bachua thing is confusing. We have David remembring the robbers leaving the shop, I gather at a signal from Bachua, but it isn't clear which signal from Bachua is meant, the warning that the stagecoach was approaching or the one getting the robbers to leave the shop.

I will try to clarify. It was very confusing for me to figure out since I largely had to depend upon Young Stalin and he described the robbery in a weird format. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I think I fixed this. Let me know if it needs further clarification. Remember (talk) 14:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Excepting for a child, a member of royalty who doesn't have a commonly-used last name, or where several people with the same last name are being discussed, first name alone should not be used to refer to a person.

Agreed. Made a mistake with Bachua. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Remember (talk) 14:14, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• I started to edit the section about Kamo's trials, but stopped in confusion. If he was tried for the robbery in his second trial, what was he tried for (and sentenced to death!) the first time?

• he was captured after another abortive attempt of a similar raid in 1912 (some of his colleagues failed to show up). He was sentenced to several death penalties at once but it was commutted to life imprisonment under a timely amnesty. I will provide details later. - BorisG (talk) 14:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Boris is right. In both instances he was tried for the bank robbery (along with other crimes). He evidently was sentenced to death 4 times (as I understand it) in his life and escaped all of them. Fascinating evil character. I will try to clarify, but it is hard since there are not a lot of sources solely regarding Kamo and his trials. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

• Remember, sometimes you have a sentence with two major clauses and you start both off with the same noun (often a person). The second time, you should generally use a pronoun or just omit it entirely. Not a criticism, just a writing tip. For example, "Wehwalt edited my article, and Wehwalt got real shirty about my writing." would be better "Wehwalt edited my article, and he got real shirty about my writing" or perhaps even better "Wehwalt edited my article, and got real shirty about my article."

Agreed. I think I avoid it just because when I am working on something I will move paragraphs and sentences around so I like not to run into pronoun antecedent problems while I am revising, but I will try to revise. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Let me know if there are any further sentences that need revising. Remember (talk) 14:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I will wait until you are done before looking. Everyone has prose quirks, the trick i to be aware of them.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• I've made a number of changes that I think reflect events. My words are not handed down on golden tablets, do not fear to change them or revert me, I am as capable of as much idiocy as the next guy.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I will review and change anything I think is wrong.

I have now reviewed all of your changes and made the appropriate corrections. Remember (talk) 13:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Is there any information about how this incident was described under the Soviets? What was the Party line during Stalin's time, did it get mentioned during Khrushchev's time when Stalin was considered somewhat of a criminal? What about during the Stalin resurgence of the Brezhnev's years?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find any. The armenians evidently made three movies about Kamo during the communist era (which might be fascinating to see), but I haven't seen any of them. I would be happy to include this information if anyone can find it, but I think I have reached the limits of what I can find through my research skills and my sources available. Any suggestions or advice would be welcome. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments from BorisG

1. I know about this story for longer than I can remember, but don't know many details (hence my comment on my talk page).

Your help is still greatly appreciated. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. There is an artile about this in Russian Misplaced Pages, but it is short and not very good quality. However it does have some interesting details lacking from the English version, such as incidents of people detained with the 500 R bank notes in various European countries.

I read the article (with the help of Google translate). I agree that it is interesting on the arrests, but I haven't been able to find any such information. If you can find sources for these arrests and trials, I would be happy to include. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. The Russian entry has a number of sources. One is a Russian-language transcript from Radio Libery - is that a RS? Another is a story from a Russian magazine. The third one is perhaps most intersting, since it is contemporary and in English - a facsimile of a New York Time article of 1908 about the arrest of Maxim Litvinov and his girlfriend in Paris!

I have the NY Times article currently cited in the article (see citation number 32) but I don't have the other sources. I don't feel confident citing to russian sources based on google translate because I believe I could get it dramatically wrong, but if you can read and translate russia, I would have no problem including that information into this article. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. Russian sources contain a lot of interesting details, and many transcripts of contemporary police cables. Many names of those involved are given, based on the memoirs of Kamo's widow and some other accounts. Stalin's involvement is suspected but no evidence has apparently emerged. Krasin is mentioned repeatedly as the main organiser - consistent with what I have read before (see below).

Odd. I have seen many sources now claiming that Stalin was the mastermind, but from what I have read about Krasin, it wouldn't surprise me that he could have been. Unfortunately, I don't have English sources to support this claim, but any sources or information you can provide regarding Krasin's activities would be greatly appreciated. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. A few years ago I read that the robbery was the trigger for the split between Lenin and Krasin (and Bogdanov). Lenin pretty much ordered the robbery but when accused by fellow party colleagues, especially the Mensheviks, of the direct violation of the resolution of the 5th party congress banning such operations, he distanced himself from it and blamed everything on Krasin, who was number 2 (and Treasurer) of the Bolshevik faction. This in turn caused considerable unease within the Bolshevik faction, which saw Lenin's behaviour as a betrayal of a fellow Bloshevik leader. I've read this in a book, definitely a RS, but I need to dig it out. - BorisG (talk) 14:24, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

That definately sounds right to me. After the robbery there was an investigations by the RSDLP and other communist organizations and Lenin and Stalin both tried to push off responsiblity onto others. Any sources you can provide regarding this information would be most appreciated. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have located the source. It is an essay "On the history of the Bolshevist Center" by a porminent contemporary historian Boris Nicolaevsky. The essay was preserved as part of Nicolaevsky Collection at the Hoover Institution Archives, Stanford, California, and was published only recently in Secret pages of history, Ed. Yu. G. Felshtinsky, Humanities Publishing, Moscow, 1995, ISBN 5-87121-007-4, in Russian (Тайные страницы истории / Ред. -сост. Ю. Г. Фельштинский. -- М.: Издательство гуманитарной литературы, 1995. -- 512 с., ISBN 5-87121-007-4). I will present some of the findings from this essay below. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Note to Wehwalt and BorisG

Thank you so much for your comments and your time. I greatly appreciate your help in improving this article and I think you both provided excellent comments, recommendations, and thoughts. Any further input you could provide would be most appreciated, but I would understand if you want to move on to your own interests. I sincerly just want to make this an accurate, reliable, and well-written article on an event that I find fascinating (and under-reported) so any help you provide to further that goal is most appreciated. I will try to work through all of your comments quickly. Unfortunately real life responsiblities keep interceding in my wiki hobby so it may take awhile, but I promise I will get it done. Let me know if you have any further comments, suggestions, or questions regarding this article. Remember (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I will try to help. I have no specific WP interests and I am quite happy to concentrate on this (particularly on Russian sources), but I too have a lot of work committments, so will try when I can. Also putting me and Wehwalt in the same category may be misleading. Wehwalt is one of most prolific contributers to Misplaced Pages with a number of featured articles to his name. I am just an occasional contributer with a handful of short articles only. My most recent exercise is Peter Goullart. I think I know how to write articles (I write and publish a lot in my working life) but I am a slow writer and I don't think I have the patience:) Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate it, but everyone's contributions count, FA is just an incentive to drive us on, we all do what we can for the Wiki. I think this should be an excellent article once you iron the kinks out, one of the advantages of applying high standards from the beginning.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

OK. To make me focus on something, can you please point out the questions that you want me to address using Russian sources. Initially I wanted just to translate them for you, but there is just a bit too much out there. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 06:36, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think I would want information mainly on: Kamo's burial and removal from Pushkin gardens, subsequent trails and convictions for either the robbery or cashing in marked notes, how this affect Stalin and Lenin within the party, and any other information that you think I should add. Remember (talk) 17:14, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The note regarding Stalin is fine. If I'm not picky, someone else will be, there are a lot of smart people on Misplaced Pages and it helps to think in advance.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Findings from Boris Nicolaevsky

Nicolaevsky's essay On the history of the Bolshevist Center (mentioned above) contains a number of important facts. Some of these complement what is currently in the article, and some contradict them. I do not want to start editing the article straight away, because if you are editing certain sections at the same time, it will be a mess. Furthermore, I do not know the tone and strength of the evidence presented by other sources. I will simply present interesting and important facts and findings from Nicolaevsky here, and you can pick and choose what you find useful. Some of these are trivial and well known (but not yet mentioned in the article). Some are well researched by Nicolaevsky, mostly based on primary sources. Some are still a bit merky.

• Some background

1. At the 4th congress of the RSDWP, in the wake of the defeat of the 1905 revoolution, Bolshevik and Menshevik factions were trying to forge a united front.
2. This stance was reaffirmed at the 5th (London) Congress. A Central Committee was formed and it was decided that factions won't be forming any separate committees. However the factions did not work together , and Bolsheviks formed their own Bolshevist Centre, whose existence was kept secret from the rest of the party (Mensheviks and ethnic factions). The Centre was led by a Finance Group or Committee of three comprised of Lenin, Krasin and Bogdanov. Lenin was the ideological, political and organisational leader, and editor of the Bolshevik paper, Proletary. Krasin was treasurer, major fundraiser and also head of all the paramilitary operations. Not exactly clear what was Bogdanov's role, but it was mainly to do with the paper.
3. A major resolution of the 5th (London) Congress banned all expropriations, an ephemism for armed robberies. This resolution passed with a vast majority of 65% against 6% (others abstained or did not vote). All Mensheviks and even some Bolsheviks supported the resolution. Against it was a small group of Bolsheviks including Lenin (Krasin was under arrest in Moscow and did not take part in the congress; Bogdanov was a non-voting delegate).
4. Against this background, the Finance Group planned a number of expropriations in different parts of Russia.
5. In particular, they set up a direct line of communication with Kamo.

• Aftermath: political consequencies for Social Democrats

1. After the raid, Kamo personally delivered the money to the Finance Group in Kuokkala, Finland (then part of Russian Empire).
2. According ot Nikolaevsky, upon delivery, Kamo signed a 'contract' between his group and the Finance Group, which stipulated, among other things, that the Finance Group undertakes that under no circumstances the information about this operation and the money will be discussed with any party organisations.
3. Initially, it was not clear who was behind the raid, but after the arrest of Kamo, Litvinov and others, Bolshevik connection was obvious.
4. The Mensheviks felt betrayed and angry. Clearly, Bolsheviks not only operated their factional governing body, indepenent from the unified Central Committee, but this centre was directing operations explicitly prohibited by the party congress. Leader of Mensheviks, Georgy Plekhanov, called for separation from the Bolsheviks. His colleague Julius Martov called the Bolshevist Centre something between a secret factional central committee and a criminal gang. The CC started an investigation into the incident and sent its representatives to the Caucasses, resulting in the expulsion of certain members, including Stalin. Later the investigation into the role of the Center was conducted by an overseas buraeu of CC (for security reasons). However in all cases the investigation was stalled by the Bolsheviks, and nothing came of it.
5. In January 1908, fearing police crackdown after the arrest of Litvinov, Lenin fled to Europe and established his headquarters in Geneva. Krasin remained in Finland and was eventually arrested in March 1908 but later released. This release is still unexplained. Police archives show that Okhrana knew from Zhitomirsky of Krasin's connection to the Tiflis raid, but failed to provide the Finnish police with the evidence, nor created any obstacles for his return to St. Petersburgh in 1913.
6. The connection to the raid made Bolshevist Centre unpopular not only with Mensheviks, but also with European social-democrats. Thus, Lenin's desire to distance himself from the legacy of the raid may have been one of the motivations of his split rift with Bogdanov and Krasin.
7. When the split happenned (ostensibly due to irreconcilable philosophical differences between Lenin and Bogdanov), the Finance Group was dissolved but Krasin kept the remaining money and failed to hand it over to a new treasurer. Krasin and Bogdanov planned to use the money to provide finacial and legal support to Kamo and other arrested colleagues (they considered themselves bound by the Kuokkala 'contract'). In the insuing argument, Lenin accused Krasin of misappropriation of funds. - BorisG (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• Discussion

Oh that is all great stuff. Keep it coming. Also, feel free to edit the article now because I am going to take a break for awhile. Remember (talk) 17:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

By the way, BorisG you wouldn't happen to have access to this source, would you? I have been trying to get it but keep running against brick walls. Remember (talk) 17:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Will check. But now it is 2 am and that's enough for tonight. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 18:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Got your source on Kamo. How should I send it to you? - BorisG (talk) 09:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds fascinating. I'm continuing to monitor, once things have settled down a bit, I'll do another run through. Darn, what I wouldn't give for unfettered access to jstor ... best way to send stuff is for Remember to use the email function to send BorisG one, wiki will not support attachments, but in the reply from BorisG to Remember, you can send an attachment.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow that is all great stuff that you found BorisG. I would love to incorporate it into the article. Now the question becomes how do we do that. I can't read Russian so I can't review the source material, but I trust your translation and citation. Perhaps BorisG could try to revise the article to incorporate this new information? Again, I would do it myself, but I can't read the source material and so I would be afraid that I am stating something incorrectly or citing to the wrong page or lost something in translation. Let me know your thoughts. Remember (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I would really prefer that you incorporate it yourself. You have a better grasp of the article itself, its logic and layout. I have not translated anything, I describe everything in my own words, except when I quote Plekhanov, Martov etc. Thus there are no Copyright issues. I can provide page numbers for every bullet point above. I can also review the result. I actually love to review and edit things (I have experience as one of the editors of a scientific journal). Is this OK? - BorisG (talk) 16:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

May I also suggest that you first incorporate the material from the jstor article and maybe Krupskaya, which is all in English already. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 16:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

OK. I will give it a try that way and note which areas I need you to review. Thanks again for the help! This article keeps coming along. Remember (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the free online version does not have any page numbers but I can check them using Google Books. - BorisG (talk) 00:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Krupskaya

A lot of (secondary) sources cite the memoirs of Krupskaya (Lenin's wife and secretary of the Bolshevist center). I have located an English translation here. There are brief accounts of Kamo's visit to Finland in 1907 (with the money) and later in Paris (after his escape from prison). Tiflis expropriation is mentioned without much fuss. Please have a look. It may be a primary source (kind of) but given that so many rumours exist about this event, this authentic information is valuable, I think.

I will take a look. Remember (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

DYK suggestions

Since this article is coming along well, I thought I would solicit ideas for the DYK. Insert suggestions below. Remember (talk) 12:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin (pictured) helped organize a bank robbery where 341,000 rubles ($3.4 Million in 2008 USD) was stolen, fifty people injured, and forty people killed.

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin (pictured) helped organize a robbery where bombs were thrown at a bank stagecoach in a crowded city square resulting in 341,000 rubles stolen ($3.4 Million in 2008 USD), fifty people injured, and forty people killed. Remember (talk)

Slightly revised suggestion below.

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin (pictured) helped organize a robbery where bombs were thrown at a bank stagecoach in a crowded city square resulting in at least 250,000 rubles stolen, fifty people injured, and several people killed.

• this is probably best. But Maybe better if we 1) give number of killed and injured (for consistency), and 2) number of those killed before the number of injured. - BorisG (talk) 17:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Or

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin (pictured) helped organize a robbery where bombs were thrown at a bank stagecoach in a crowded city square resulting in at least 250,000 rubles stolen, fifty people injured, and several people and horses killed.

Finalist

This looks like the finalist based on our discussion. Feel free to revise if you think it could be worded a better way.Remember (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin (pictured) helped organize a robbery where bombs were thrown at a bank stagecoach in a crowded city square resulting in reportedly at least 250,000 rubles stolen (over $3 Million in current USD), forty people killed, and fifty people injured.

Discussion on suggestions

• I think the first is bad, but the second one is also questionable. The number of victims is disputed. Stalin's role is disputed. The amount stolen is disputed (I have seen 250,000 in most sources). The amount in today's currency seems small. How is it computed? - BorisG (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

• Ouch. I thought they were both pretty good, but I am happy to discuss alternatives. I am a bit confused by the following things in your critique though: Remember (talk)

General comment: I think it is perfectly fine for the article to contain disputed facts (supported by RS) but I think we must be more careful with DYK and not present disputed claims as facts, so as to not propagate any myths. - BorisG (talk) 13:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Remember (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• the number of victims is backed up by Okhrana archives while some other stated death tolls at the time was much lower (I think around three), I didn't think this was a problem since there are several sources that acknowledge the 40 casualties, but I guess you think that this issue is too much in dispute to mention as a fact on the main page, is that correct? Do you have an alternative way to discuss the deaths (because I was having trouble coming up with alternative wording) Remember (talk)

I have not seen this number in the sources that I reviewed. I will check again. - BorisG (talk) 13:22, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I will try to get them for you. Remember (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• While what Stalin did on the day of the robbery is disputed, I don't think there is any dispute that he helped organize the robbery. Afterall, he got inside tips from two people about the stagecoach and that was one of the keys to planning the assualt. Do you think that Stalin did not play a part organizing the robbery? Do you have an alternative way to discuss his role? Remember (talk)

Most sources that I have seen do say that Stalin played a significant role. The only one disputing this is Nicolaevsky. I guess this means that he is in a small minority and can be ignored, at least for DYK. I drop this objection. - BorisG (talk) 13:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

For completeness, Nicolaevsky (a fellow Social Democrat at the time) says that Stalin was connected with Kamo's group, defended/represented it before the local party committee, visited their "headquarters" with political lectures, but his role has been exaggerated in later years. He was neither their superior nor go-between. The group liaised with BC directly via Kamo, who was closely connected to Krasin from 1903-04. - BorisG (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to include this discussion in the section that describes Stalin's actions during the day of the robbery, but I don't think that there is any dispute that Stalin found the inside men who gave them the tip off for the robbery (since I believe the party investigation concluded as much). I think Stalin can be said to have helped "organized", "planned", "assisted", or facilitated" the robbery without implying that he was in charge of the robbery. I am not sure which one of those verbs works for you, but let me know what you think. Remember (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps helped organize" is best. - BorisG (talk) 14:11, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I am fine with helped organize, but I thought you might be interested in this source from pages 73-75, which talks about the Nicolaevsky source and disputes it regarding Stalin's participation after he finds the official records of the party displinary committeea, and states that he controlled from the wings of the organization the robbery. Remember (talk) 14:14, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes you appear to be right. Great and detailed source! - BorisG (talk) 16:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that the amount is disputed, but I have sources to back up the 341,000 version (here is the Time Man of the Year article on Stalin that mentions this amount ) so I thought it would be okay to mention on the main page even if disputed. Do you have an alternative way to discuss the issue? Perhaps just say it was the lower amount (250,000)? Remember (talk)

Most (if not all) of the sources I have seen are consistent with the figure of 250,000 of which 100,000 were in 500R notes. I suggest we say at least 250,000 in DYK. - BorisG (talk) 13:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I am fine with that. Remember (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• The amount of money in today's US Dollars was based on the amount estimated in Young Stalin. It appears that the author used a very simple calculation to get this amount of money (See ). So this may need to revised. Because these currencies were on the gold standard, theoretically you could convert them yourself (which an earlier editor tried to do), but I thought that might come off as original research and so I went with the verifiable number. Any suggestions about how to get a more accurate accounting? Remember (talk)

We need to see how much it was in contemporary USD, and then look at change if USD with time. This may constitute OR, but I guess this limited amount of OR should be permitted (basically unit conversion). - BorisG (talk) 13:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. I'll try to do that. Feel free to help out with this.

See my discussion below on the money issue.Remember (talk) 16:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Lastly, do you have any alternative suggestions for the DYK? My idea was to focus on Stalin and Lenin's role since I think that is the most fascinating aspect, but I am open ot other ideas. Remember (talk) 21:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Not yet but with above clarifications we should converge on one soon. Basically I agree with your general idea but with some corrections/qualifications. - BorisG (talk) 13:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Remember (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Forty dead issue

As for the number of casualties. 40 dead from the attack is mentioned here and it is discussed explicitly in Young Stalin by Sebag-Montefiore on 14. I think that this is good enough to support the assertion that forty people were killed but because the original official reports were much lower I can understand that this would be in dispute. Problem is, I don't know how to resolve this dispute and I'm not sure how to discuss it in the DYK. Thoughts? Remember (talk) 18:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Another comment

Bachua's motivation in inviting David into the tavern puzzles me. Was it to keep him relatively safe from harm? It could use a brief explanation.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:04, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I think so, but the source material (Young Stalin) is vague on it so it is hard to elaborate without speculation. If we had the original memoirs of Sagirashvili, it might say there. But even then, I have a feeling that Sagirashvili does not discuss why Bachua did what he did and the only person that would know is Bachua. So I am not sure how to resolve your issue. Remember (talk) 21:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

BorisG's review finished

I have finished my review of the latest version. I have other concerns that I will post here, but we can do all of that in a regular fashion. Please review my changes (not only in boldface sections) and remove the bold fonts. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 02:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

To do list for BorisG

• Discussion on amount (dispute between sources)
• Burning the 500 R notes (2008?)
• Role of Stalin (make sure we do not propagate the myth that Stalin was a prominent Bolshevik leader at the time).
• Lenin's flight from Russia and Krasin's arrest
• Add reference to the Minutes of 5th Congress (?)

Money Question

I have some issues with trying to figure out the exact dollar amount. Check out my analysis below and let me know what you think.

The first question I tried to figure out is how much was 250,000 rubles worth in dollars in 1907?

According to the Russian ruble page - "On 17 December 1885, a new standard was adopted which did not change the silver ruble but reduced the gold content to 1.161 grams, pegging the gold ruble to the French franc at a rate of 1 ruble = 4 francs. This rate was revised in 1897 to 1 ruble = 2⅔ francs". Theoretically, we could use this to try to figure out how much was stolen in terms of US dollars at the time of the theft, but I couldn't substantiation for this assertion and I don't know how to convert 1907 francs to dollars.

I did find some sources stating the amount stolen equivalent in U.S. Dollars in 1907. According to these sources, the 250,000 rubles were worth $125,000 in 1907 dollars - . Nevertheless The New York times gives the amount stolen as worth $175,000 when it reported on the theft (See New York Times article.

I did calculations to try to determine what both $125,000 and $175,000 from 1907 is worth in 2009 dollars. And I got the following answers from Measuring Worth

In 2009, the relative worth of $175,000.00 from 1907 is:

$4,120,000.00 using the Consumer Price Index

$3,130,000.00 using the GDP deflator

$8,830,000.00 using the value of consumer bundle

$17,400,000.00 using the unskilled wage

$26,500,000.00 using the Production Worker Compensation

$20,900,000.00 using the nominal GDP per capita

$73,700,000.00 using the relative share of GDP

In 2009, the relative worth of $125,000.00 from 1907 is:

$2,940,000.00 using the Consumer Price Index

$2,240,000.00 using the GDP deflator

$6,310,000.00 using the value of consumer bundle

$12,500,000.00 using the unskilled wage

$18,900,000.00 using the Production Worker Compensation

$14,900,000.00 using the nominal GDP per capita

$52,600,000.00 using the relative share of GDP

Meanwhile, I have support from two separate sources that the amount stolen was equal to roughly $3.4 Million. See and Young Stalin by Sebag-Montefiore on p. 14.

Maybe the best thing to do is say "worth approximately $3 Million" and then provide a note explaining the issue. What are your thoughts? Do you have any other ideas for attacking the problem?Remember (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

WAW you did a lot of work. I won't trust the sources unless I knew what their approach was (most likely, the figure has single origin). However, since the lowest amounts you've found are on the same order of magnitude, I would stick to the source figure. We can say 'over 3 million dollars'. I thought it would be a lot more. My extremely rough guide is that average inflation is about 100% per 10 years, that is, the nominal value doubles every 10 years. This would give factor of 2^10=1024 in 100 years, or $125 Million! But alas I am very wrong. Interesting! Let's leave it as is. - BorisG (talk) 17:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Random note - You didn't take into account that inflation really only got going after people left the gold standard which didn't happen officially until the 1970s under Nixon. USA tried to separate slightly from the gold standard for the first time under FDR but even that was moderate. I only know this because I read and then wrote an article describing Lords of Finance, which is fascinating by the way. Remember (talk) 18:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Measuring worth, while useful, has been the source of a lot of debate among otherwise reasonable editors. I would use a written source in preference to Measuringworth, but if forced to it, I will use it. However, I'm not sure it works well for Russia because you are doing a currency conversion--Wehwalt (talk) 17:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think I will just stick to the $3.4 Million cited in Young Stalin for the text of the article and say "over 3 Million" for the DYK just to be on the safe side. Remember (talk) 18:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. - BorisG (talk) 18:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Good job

The thing was impressive to start with. What a cool topic. People will love this.TCO (talk) 23:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the complement and for your assistance. I also think that this article has turned out great and I hope others will like it as much as I do. Remember (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Burning the money

Quick question: You inserted the following into the draft article "Soonafter, Lenin's associates burned all the 500 Ruble notes remaining in their possession." and you cited "'Krupskaya - Years of Reaction - Geneva - 1908" but I could not find any mention of the individuals burning the notes in Krupskaya in this section. Is that what you were citing he book for or was it for another proposition? Can you point to where she says that they were planning to burn the notes? Remember (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a short sentence about this in tne Paris 1909-1910 section. She says The remaining 500-ruble notes were burnt. Nicolaevsky attaches a police report about this event, including who was present, etc. (moved from my talk page) Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, that would explain it. I was looking in the Geneva section. Thanks for the clarification. I will revise the citation. Remember (talk) 21:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Brackman as a source

I think Brackman's book is not a serious source. I think it is ok to use it but we need to mention alternative claims. Brackman presents highly controlversial and disputed claims as facts. He also describes details that cannot possibly be known (like emotions of various people etc). He does not present any critical analysis of sources and evidence. This is more of a fictionalised biography than a serious historial study. Obviously, for WP, it is a reliable source, and thus can be used but need to be used with caution, and alternative views presented. Especially when talking about Stalin's involvement with Okrana (the crux of his book). I would like to present these when I have time. But this can be done in the mainspace. Good work! Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I was worried that Brackman might be asserting too much certainity. That is why I tried to make sure any assertions that he makes that I couldn't substantiate somewhere else I tried to present it as his view. I would be happy to include sources critical to Brackman if you can find any. I agree that this does not need to hold up the move to mainspace. Remember (talk) 21:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Style

I have corrected some sentences that I found awkward, but you decided to change some back, and I do not want to be persistent. Instead I will be reporting some problems here:

• A few weeks after the 5th Congress, the robbery that the Bolsheviks had organized occurred in the centre of Tiflis.

I's say, this is VERY awkward. Grammatically correct but awkward. I'd say the following would be better:

• A few weeks after the 5th Congress, the robbery in Tiflis occurred.

I acttually don't like the word occurred because this sort of implies something accidental rather than planned. But maybe that's too subtle a point. Or perhaps:

• A few weeks after the 5th Congress, all major papers reported the news of the robbery in Tiflis.

We really don't need to mention Bolsheviks here, because the context is clear. In fact, that would be more adequate, because at the time very few people knew Bolsheviks were involved. I actually think this sentence is not needed at all, but the current version is particularly awkward. - BorisG (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right. It was awkward. I've revised the section. Remember (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I've nominated it as a good article. Excellent work.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Bolshevik Center

The article says: "Despite the 5th Congress's prohibition on separate committees and expropriations, Bolsheviks had already formed their own governing body, the Bolshevik Center...". I think this is confusing. Nicolaevsky says that although in some form the Centre existed before the 5th congress, it did not have this formal name and was not regarded as an official (if secret) governing body. He further says that nothing is known about it, not even who were members and how many. The Bolshevik Center in the more official sense was formed at a sitting of the Bolshevik fraction during the 5th congress. This is clear from a number of sources. - BorisG (talk) 03:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

ok. I was confused. I thought the Bolshevik center existed before the congress. If your sources say otherwise, then I agree with the change.Remember (talk) 04:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Using the word elected we avoid the need to specify whether it was formed for the first time there or existed in some form before that - a point of no importance to this article. But it may be important for the Bolshevik Center article. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. Cheers. Remember (talk) 18:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

More comments

The following questions are not immediately clear after reading this:

• How many people took part in the robbery? Do you have a list of participants?

The total amount of people involved is unknown as best as I can tell. I have not seen anyone actually state the amount of people involved but it seems like a large gang of individuals were involved in the actual robbery as well as many other individuals who helped organize and move the money. I thought that this was acurately conveyed in the article, but if you have any suggestions for how to improve the article, please state them here. Remember (talk) 18:10, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• Who was the mastermind behind the operation (Stalin according to Boris Bazhanov and other sources as far as I remember, Lenin was not really involved in planning?)

• Both. Such a big operation was ordered from the top, and overall planning was by Krasin, who was both Lenin's "finance minister" and chief of military operations. Stalin's role is less clear, but he was probably a key local planner. I think the article is very clear on all these aspects, to the extent possible. Bazhanov only mentions this story in passing. He may not know all the details. There are many documents to implicate Lenin personally. Please read the article. - BorisG (talk) 10:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, it is not entirely clear who organized every aspect. Lenin and Krasin were involved in the orginal planning, Stalin and Kamo were involved in making the arrangements in Tiflis, and Kamo was very involved in the execution. To state that one person was the mastermind is pretty difficult. Remember (talk) 18:10, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• Conspirators were not able to cash any banknotes, did not they? This should probably appear as an introductary pharse in the corresponding chapter.Biophys (talk) 06:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• According to many sources, only 100,000 were in 500-ruble notes; the rest were in smaller denominations and could be used immediately. The only known cases of successful exchange of 500-ruble notes were by Krasin after he had split from Lenin. - BorisG (talk) 10:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Krasin was involved in many other interesting illegal operations to get/extort money... Biophys (talk) 07:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes. We know this. - BorisG (talk) 10:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with BorisG on the above. Remember (talk) 18:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I remember a couple of interesting books by Arkady Vaksberg and Felshtinsky... It still would be great to have a list of participants, including organizers. It's a shame I can not help because of my topic ban.Biophys (talk) 17:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree a list of participants would be useful. I think Brackman has it, but he is not reliable (in my view). I have Felshtinsky's book. It does not give any details on the robbery. His data is mostly from Nikolaevsky, who is not focused on the robbery itself, but on the financial operations of the Bolshevik Centre. I don't have Vaksberg. I will have a look. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 17:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I meant book "Death of the Storm Petrel" (Russian version) by Vaksberg that is not about the subject of this article, but describes a little bit Maria Andreyeva, Savva Timofeyevich Morozov and certain related events. The book by Felshinskiy is that one.Biophys (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The above link is dead. This site is more reliable. - BorisG (talk) 04:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It's very common: I am giving a link to a Russian site, somewhere in wikipedia, and it is dead in a few hours (that was site of Maksim Moshkow). Big Brother is watching. Biophys (talk) 07:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

hmm I hope you are joking. Anyway, can you just tell us the title of the book you mean, please? Thanks. - BorisG (talk) 08:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Here. My link above (Moshkov library) is working again proving me to be wrong.Biophys (talk) 16:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes that's the one I mentioned above. I am afraid it provides little extra information that is not available from the sources already in the article. - BorisG (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure anyone has an explicit list, but I know the names of some other individuals who were involved but I cut them from an earlier draft of the article since they didn't seem to actually matter to the overall story. Remember (talk) 18:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

This is very simple question that arises after reading that 50 people were killed. How many people took part in the attack? 5? 10? 50? This is not clear. I also tried to fix an article on a related subject, expropriation, but could not: . It would be good if one of you could look at this.Biophys (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

It may be a simple question, but there is no simple answer. There is no source that I know of that states the total number of people involved, gives an estimate of the total number involved, or lists the people involved. 02:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I have just read the account given by Trotsky. Like Nicolaevsky, Trotsky comes to the conclusion that Stalin's involvement was at best peripheral. Trotsky also cites the figure of 241,000 Rubles taken, three people killed and scores injured (cititng early Soviet edition of Lenin's writings). As for Vaksberg, if his book is not about this robbery, then it is not of interest for this article. Other articles may be written about other events. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 03:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Trotsky

I encourage everyone to read Trotsky's entire account here. He gives the most detailed background, a very detailed analysis of Stalin's role, and also consequencies. BorisG (talk) 09:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. "there were 1,231 assassinations in 1907...". This should be included in background. That was not just a robbery, but a part of revolutionary struggle, and more specifically, an "expropriation". Biophys (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

On a second thought, any writings by Trotsky or Stalin qualify as "primary sources". One should use good secondary sources, such as book "Stalin" by Edvard Radzinsky. Page 61 (English edition, New York, 1996), about the robbery: "This magnificent theatrical event was, from start to finish, Koba's composition. ... This was the first show Koba put on for all Europe to see." Biophys (talk) 18:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

After reading the "account" by Trotsky, it becomes clear that he simply tells nothing about the role of Stalin in the robbery, beyond noticing that Lenin, Krupskaya and Stalin himself did not talk much about it. However, according to Radzinsky, the practical organizer was Kamo, but he did everything exactly as he was told by Stalin (there are some interesting details about their personal relations in the book).Biophys (talk) 19:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I have read the account by Radzinsky but it did not give more info than other sources (Sebag, Brackman, Nicolaevsky, Kun etc). He claims Stalin's central role just like Kun. Nothing new. As for Trotsky, I won't consider it a primary source, as he is essentially analysing primary sources, not giving his personal account. He is here acting as a historian and biographer rather than a direct observer of, or participant in, the events. We have to be careful about his biases though. - BorisG (talk) 01:14, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

This article is in excellent condition compare to a lot of other pages in this area. Good work! It's extremely frustrating to discuss improvement of pages but be unable to contribute because of my topic ban, so I have to stop. Biophys (talk) 01:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Why do you think this article falls within the topic ban? Is it related to any conflicts in Eastern Europe? - BorisG (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

References

Would anyone object if I were to reformat the references slightly? This is just an opinion, but it seems like it might be better if the "General" section was under the heading "bibliography". Also, what happened with the DYK nomination for this? I didn't see it in the queue, so I guess it wasn't accepted, which seems a shame to me.-RHM22 (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Oops, nevermind. It's in the queue now.-RHM22 (talk) 21:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I am okay with reformatting references as long as it is in accordance with wikipedia style. Remember (talk) 21:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course. Most FAs and GAs use that system, from what I've seen. The MOS recommends it. I don't think what you've done is against the MOS, but it seems like the other way is a little easier to read.-RHM22 (talk) 01:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

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