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Hi, I did some formatting and minor copyediting to your article about the Decree of Dionysopolis, thanks for that! If you add references to all paragraphs (most are currently not directly referenced by footnotes), it can nominate it so that it appears in the Did you know section on the Main Page. Do let me know if you can or are willing to do that! Best, — ToдorBoжinov — 17:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi again! All paragraphs should have inline references for DYK. Personally, I like to have at least a few footnotes per paragraph and I never leave any uncited parts, but I don't think the DYK requirements are that stringent! :)
Seeing as you started the article yesterday, it should be alright if you work on it for a few more days before we nominate it. DYK is for articles no older than five days, but if you look at T:TDYK you'll see pieces much older waiting for review.
About the museum: if the article you've cited (Mihailov 1970) only says "national museum" or "people's museum", then that has to be the National Historical Museum. I can think of only one other museum in Sofia that could potentially own such an artifact, and that would be the National Archaeological Museum. If that was the case, however, I'm pretty sure your source would have said it's the archaeological museum, not the national museum.
As for the stub tags: there aren't really any solid rules, so common sense applies here (WP:STUB: "A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text", "Sizable articles are usually not considered stubs").
Here's my logic. The article currently has 2474 characters of prose. On DYK, the length requirement is 1,500 characters and stubs are not permitted. From that I deduct that articles over 1,500 characters are usually not considered stubs. Another lead is the "a few sentences of text" description from WP:STUB. "A few" means something like 3–10; the article currently has almost twenty sentences, most of which long.
Codrinb, one of the difficulties for new editors, especially on esoteric stuff like Getica, is that the creation of stub articles generally leaves way too much doubt initially about the validity of the article. The merges you mentioned are one result of this stub approach. The solution to this however is simple. Create new articles as drafts in your user space (ie. User:Codrinb\Getica (Criton)) for example. As a draft in your userspace, you can add references, experiment with organization and flesh out the content until you are confident it meets WP guidelines. Additionally you can invite others to review it and help get it right. Once you are satisfied, it can be moved in toto to the article space. This approach generally prevents premature tagging for compliance issues. If you need any help in this area, let me know. Thanks for your contributions. --Mike Cline (talk) 21:33, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Hey, good advice. I stopped by because of your notice at the Greece & Rome Project. Just wanted to say that I appreciate the care you're taking to understand procedure. Very thoughtful editing. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Article is in a awkward and nonacademic form. I tried to modify it a little bit. I think that it need a major restructuring, what do you think? Anyway I will with it in when I'll have some more spare time, meanwhile ideas are appreciated. Happy new year btw:) Aigest (talk) 12:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Template:Ro icon Bună, Codrinb. Sunt foarte impresionat de site-ul Misplaced Pages şi mă bucur că am găsit aici articole despre România şi despre români. Mi-ar plăcea să adaug şi eu informaţii şi să creez pagini, doar că nu ştiu să vorbesc cursiv engleza. Pot crea însă articole în limba române şi mi-ar plăcea ca cineva să traducă şi să le adauge şi pe Misplaced Pages în limba engleză. Răspunde-mi te rog la propunere. Mulţumesc! --MJ for U (talk) 18:58, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
O descriere e aici, din păcate în engleză. Dar are și o variantă mai puțin detaliată in română. Pe scurt pui articolul într-o categorie de tradus folosind un format util (template). Dacă există articolul în Română și e mult mai complet decât cel în engleză, marchezi articolul din versiunea engleză cu {{Expand Romanian}} (dacă lipsește cu desăvârșire - trebuie sa-l cauți bine - îl creezi cu o frază si apoi pui formatul util). Apoi poți contanta direct și traducătorii din lista care ți-am dat-o.--Codrin.B (talk) 19:47, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Actualy, the closest living relative to Dacian is modern Baltic. Quite a few linguists have found that. THis doesn;t mean that Dacians were Balts, or vice-versa, ofcourse. But this has led some to propose that a dialectical-linguistic continuum extended right accross eastern EUrope, into the eastern Balkans from the northern forests Hxseek (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
To me this sounds like a very controversial theory, definitely not mainstream. Others clearly suggest Albanian as a living relative, while Romanian and Bulgarian are the only languages that I know of which have Dacian words in them. Give examples of Baltic words of Dacian origin please. And then there are the Thracian and Illyrian strong connections, none of which have anything to do with Baltic, and definitely not with the Slavic or a extended and forced Balto-Slavic grouping Nonetheless, this would never justify those changes to the map, as controversial linguistic affinities do not convert a distinct population, with a significantly different cultural background and at a far away location to the Balto-Slavic tribes. No way! Dacians are a distinct group, and historically had quite a large population that challenged Rome significantly. The Balto-Slavs were far away from Balkans at that time and no historical sources show any kind of interaction between Dacians and them, let alone describe them as relatives. But there is plenty of known Dacian interaction with Illyrians, Thracians, Celts, Sarmatians, Scythians, Romans, Greeks, Germanic tribes, with whom Dacians share more cultural and linguistic affinities. The map is completely removing this large and distinct group of people from history based on some strange theories, only 19 years after the war with Rome. This map should reflect Dacians as distinct until more significant evidence is brought to the table. To me all these theories and actions sound liked very political, forced justifications of early presence of Slavs in Balkans, politics which are very inconvenienced by the presence of a different, ancient group of people. They have no place on an encyclopedia. --Codrin.B (talk) 14:59, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
CodrinB, the Baltic-Dacian affnity theory is based on comparitive onosmatics, ie similarity of some river names and plant names. It has nothing to do with ALinei's theory, and has nothing to do with nationalism (believ it or not, not all Slas want to invade Romania !), so you don't need to panic !
The idea that Balto-Slavic shows some affinity with Dacian, does not remove the independence of Dacians and their role in history. I am not necessarily supposing that Dacians were Balto -Slavic (in fact, i am interested in it because it gives some clues as to how Slavic developed, which, we'd all agree came after Dacian. If Dacian & Thracian were indeed rather similar to Slavic, then they might not have 'beomce extinct' but rather evolved into Slavic).
Whatever the case, the Dacians were a distinct political-military group which existed before and around the time of Roman conquest. People have extended this label, Dacian, to supposed linguistic phylu, based on scanty -to -nonexistent evidence. The Dacians were defined by their military activities against Rome, and not due to some particular language, or percievd modern descendents, as most people would argue Hxseek (talk) 22:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Hxseek, very thoughtful response. Thanks for clarifying your points. However, the Baltic-Dacian connection is a very interesting theory but it is not mainstream and doesn't warrant such radical changes to a map used by a myriad of articles. Personally I am even more skeptical of the Dacian-Slavic connection and suspicious of the motifs, since doesn't have much support and due to the point I raised before, but I welcome your research on that and I hope to read books written by you. However, changing the Roman Empire map, and writing assertions and convincing statements using such research done by Misplaced Pages users or non-main stream authors, infringes the Misplaced Pages:No_original_research policy. Notice the dubious original research in the section Changes to Empire 125 map, removed from the current Talk page maybe in good faith. Not worried about the Slavs invading, way to late for that :-) P.S. Don't forget to use indentation when talking, when it makes sense. --Codrin.B (talk) 23:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
It depends what you mean by 'mainstream'. AFAIK, virtually all who have analyzed Dacian have made this connection, however, we unfortunately know far too little of Dacian.
AFAIK, Dacian and Thracian do show some "affinities" with Balto-Slavic, but that does not mean it belongs to Baltic or a Slavic (although Alinei proposed the last one). Slavic and Baltic though different groups do show some similarities, that's why they are sometime put together in a supergroup called sometimes Northeastern group. It's like Italo-Celtic supergroup, (NorthWestern group) while both groups are independent (Italic and Celtic) they do show some affinities. Returning to our case, yes it can sow some affinities, but that doesn't mean that it belongs to them. Mainstream right now is that they were independent. I wouldn't be surprised of other affinities,(an eg Albanian shows affinities with Balto-Slavic, Italo-Celtic and even with Greek-Armenian called southern group) but the data on Dacian are scarce. What they have produced so far are only affinities with Balto-Slavic. Aigest (talk) 09:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
CodrinB. May I make a suggestion. As an illustrative example: your suggestion that the Basternae were "definitely" Celto-Germanic with some Dacian elements, "for sure", it worries me. I actually haven't had a lot to do with Dacian stuff apart from odd comments on the Carpi, etc. However, if you really want to create some great articles on Dacians, et al, then I suggest you really get up to speed with recent developments on culural anthropology and critical archaeology. With the above example, on what basis do you call the basternae Celto-Germano-Dacian ? (I know you probably just read it) But I can tell you that there is in fact No evidence whatsoever as to what language they spoke , is there ? So then, what is the basis that scholars argue that they were Celto-Dacian, given that, above all, it is alinguistic categorization ?
The only evidence we might have for them is archaeological. Eg certain types of weapons, jewellery, settlements found in areas where we suppose they lived (don;t even know for sure). Furthermore, these features show much in common with other assemblaes from Dacia and eastern Europe. So they actually do no suficiently tell us how and why they were different, from eg Venedi, or Carpi.
The problem is a lot of eastern European historians, including (& especially) Romanian ones, are so intent on proving 'continuity', etc, that they compromize their methodology. One has to keep this in mind when debating issues regarding past ethnic groups for which we have little and difficult to interpret evidence.
Hi! I saw your recent edit to Megleno-Romanians, mentioning whatever other languages the Megleno-Romanians might speak. What's the point of that? Maybe some of them know English and Spanish. I am ready to revert, but wanted your input. Nice picture of Machu Picchu. Been there last month. Regards!--Codrin.B (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello.Yes, it is true that they may speak even English, but often in that box are put the languages that are official in the country where people live and that means they know it for sure (some may use them at home for instance). I have seen that in many infoboxes and that's why I have put it. Best--MacedonianBoy (talk) 17:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
You must be kidding. It sounds very unrealistic to list all languages of one countries as spoken by a tiny minority and hints to some nationalistic agenda not welcomed on Misplaced Pages. Can you give any examples? And let's keep the discussion in one place. Thanks.--Codrin.B (talk) 17:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Dacian script
Please stop removing articles left and right or I'll have to report your vandalism. You have no reason to remove the Dacian script articles even if you don't agree or believe in it. It is possibility. Even if it all fake, it deserves an article to clarify the theories with pros and cons. What consensus do you cite? And why do you hide under this nick name? --Codrin.B (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
You want to get yourself accustomed to Misplaced Pages rules about pseudoscience, available at WP:FRINGE. There's not one established historian attesting the existence of such thing as "Dacian script" (as opposed to Latin or Greek script used to write "Dacian"). Misplaced Pages's is not a place to publish historical revisionism by obscure non-specialists, so unless you bring a proof of scholar support for this "Dacian script" or at least prove that there's a notable dispute about the subject (which is not the case either, as even the most dacophile mainstream historians acknowledge that the only scripts used in the area of Dacia were Latin and, much less frequently, Greek). Thank you. Anonimu (talk) 22:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I am afraid you have a very twisted interpretation of WP:FRINGE. First of all, the article starts with a very neutral sentence A so-called Dacian script..., therefore, the editor was careful not to present those controversial views alongside the scientific consensus as though they are equal but opposing views, exactly how the Fringe theory guidelines, I repeat guidelines suggest. I do not endorse the view that the script is real, however I can not tolerate such vandalism and aggressiveness. I noticed your interest in the topic and I invited you constructively to join the project dealing with the Dacia topic, where you can communicate and coordinate with great people. But instead of creating you are mostly deleting and removing other peoples work without prompting any kind of conversation. You are accusing others of revisionism but this is exactly what you do. Your destructive and negative attitude, your activities, your id, Anonimu and your empty profile clearly show that you have a very hidden agenda, you have some holy wars to fight and make your very suspect of sock puppetry. I suggest you review your actions and attitude, and come forward with honesty about your interests and agenda. --Codrin.B (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the invitation, but my activity in English Misplaced Pages is only adding interwiki to Indonesian language. The edit i made in Dacian articles were interwiki to Indonesian wikipedia. Thank you very much. Mimihitam (talk)
Yes, that is a good list. Some of those names are already discussed in the relevant literature, see the studies I cited for Costoboci (for Natopor see page 11). Daizus (talk) 12:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Dacians on the Roman Empire map
Hi Codrin,
First of all the Bastarnae were initially of mixed Celtic-Germanic origin (until about the 1st century BC), but by the 2nd century they have become Germanic. The accounts of both Pliny the Elder and Tacitus support this. Secondly, the links between Dacian and the Baltic languages are attested in several publications. If you want I will ask Hxseek to provide you with some references. I strongly oppose being unfairly accused of original reasearch.
Now, regarding the 'political motivations' behind 'rewriting the ancient history of Dacia' on wiki I have to say you and Daizus are still thinking according to obsolete nationalist and protochronist patterns. To be honest, the importance of the Dacians and their role in the Romanian ethnogenesis has been grossly overemphasized in the Communist period. It's not a tragedy if we admit that the regions East and South of the Carpathians (Moldavia and Muntenia) and parts of Transylvania were most likely colonized and Romanized (or rather Wallachianized) during the Middle Ages (7-14 centuries) by a Romance-speaking population coming from the territories immediatly South of the Danube (Central Serbia and Northern Bulgaria). In fact the younger generation of Romanian historians (Alexandru Madgearu, Marian Tiplic, C. Opreanu and others) have suggested that the Romanians originated chiefly from the region situated between the Jirecek line and Danube with only some isolated islands of Latin-speakers surviving in Banat and the Western Carpathians after 271.
Finally, my personal opinion is that instead of evoking Burebista, Decebal and the Dacians we should rather concentrate on the history of the Latin-speaking population of the Balkans during the 3-6 centuries, a period in which most Roman and East Roman Emperors were of Romanized Thraco-Illyrian and later Germanic origin. Perhaps we should even take the example given by the Serbs and have some streets and other locations in Romania named after famous Later Roman Emperors, Constantine the Great or Iustinian for example. At least they are well-known figures in the Western World, unlike Decebal or Burebista, and this reorientation could increase the international prestige of Romania. It's not wild to consider modern Romania as the paramount successor state to the East Roman Empire since the country has an Eastern Romance official language and bears the same name as the former Empire.
1. Your theory on Bastarnae relies on what reliable sources? Some other accounts say the Bastarnae are Scythians. Strabo (VII 3.17) claims the Roxolani are one of the Bastarnic tribes.
2. I don't know any reliable sources asserting Dacian was a Baltic (or Balto-Slavic) language, as depicted on your map, but please, prove me wrong. There are some controversial, fringe theories (like Harvey Mayer's theory of Dacian and Thracian as "Baltoidic" languages, i.e. languages derived from a Pre-Baltic language, whatever that means), but such theories shouldn't be illustrated on such maps. That this is OR it's quite clear on your talk page - it's EraNavigator's pet theory followed by a request (acknowledged to be a speculation!)
3. I never write of Romanians when I discuss about Dacians. That is not an excuse for some users here to use Dacians or other ancient tribes to promote their own views as reliable theories and unfortunately their ignorance also. Daizus (talk) 02:14, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
OK, maybe I went too far talking about Romanians, the Romanian Ethnogenesis and the Middle Ages. I have to admit to you and to Codrin that the ruthless promotion of the Dacians as having the same importance as the Romans or the Slavs in the formation of the Romanian people (even in recent years) and the immutable character of the 'Daco-Roman Continuity' theory have created quite a recoil in me so I came to somewhat despise the Dacians. The tons of Dacomanic literature I see in Romanian bookstores is really not helping me to overcome this feeling.
So you despise the Dacians and you made them Balts on your maps so Romanians can get rid of them :) As for your "tons of dacomanic literature", I guess it really depends on the bookstores, and on the publishing house (for me, at least, that's also a choice to make). Most of the times I find none. The last time I saw something like that was about the Sinaia lead tablets. Daizus (talk) 04:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
1. Strabo lived and wrote in the late 1st centrury BC and early 1st century AD. I would rather trust what Pliny and Tacitus say as they lived at a time closer to AD 125.
That's irrelevant and OR. Neither Pliny, nor Tacitus are known to have first hand knowledge of the Bastarnae. Daizus (talk) 04:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
2. I will try to find some references myself but you should debate this issue with Hxseek and EraNavigator. They are much better prepared than me to carry on this dispute.
I've read their references and arguments in several discussions here - no proof or bibliography whatsoever for Dacian as a Balto-Slavic language. To be sure, Balto-Slavic as a group is ridiculous and also OR, as there are Slavic languages, Baltic languages, and a hypothetic Proto-Balto-Slavic ancestor. Daizus (talk) 04:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
3. You might call my views or EraNavigator's views as proves of ignorance, that's fine with me. I know our theories need to be more polished but I think someone has to challenge some obsolete and embarrassing theories regading the ancient and medieval history of Romania, even here on Misplaced Pages. Andrei (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
At this moment, at least in the articles on Dacian tribes, the only embarassing theories are EraNavigator's. As he once said: "the Baltic peoples came from Dacia, which was one stop on their migration from Asia Minor (part of the Indo-European migrations into Europe)". This theory is not even related to the history of Romanians. But this and other ludicrous views of his explain some of the bias and the OR from his articles. His theories need no polish, they just need to be ignored. One can't have a plausible theory without no knowledge. Following some of EraNavigator's OR I realized he doesn't even understand Latin well and he misread the ancient accounts to fit his preconceived views (e.g. Ammianus on Costobocae). Lack of knowledge is a big problem, but a bigger one is that his theories are as dogmatic as the "paradigms" (that's his word) he fights against. He's just one more ideologue! And as it happens in such a case, much of the "challenge" is a straw man. Cui prodest?
Anyway, presenting "your" theories and challenging other theories on Misplaced Pages is OR. Thank you for proving my point! ;) Daizus (talk) 04:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
No, don't get me wrong. I don't want the Romanians to get rid of the Dacians, I just want their place to be where it should be in the history of Romania, alongside the Gepids, Goths, Bulgars and Cumans. What I really despise is the way the Dacians are constantly used to sustain backward protochronistic theories.
Give me one author who lived in the 1st or 2nd centuries AD and had a better knowledge of the Bastarnae than Pliny the Elder or Tacitus.
Have you at least personally asked Hxseek or EraNavigator for some references? I wonder what are you waiting for.
You previously said we shouldn't bring Romanians into our debate concerning the Dacians. Now you say that what EraNavigator wrote (regardless of what he stated there about migration patterns) has nothing to do with the history of Romanians... How comes that? And I bet you are an expert in translating Latin texts and that you can proove he has indeed misread Ammianus and other ancient authors...
In any case EraNavigator has sustained his theories with some solid references in the articles he wrote on the Costoboci and Carpi. Is it so hard for you to accept that there is a 50% chance these tribes were something else than Dacian?
My feeling is that you are as much as an ideologue as EraNavigator is. Why else would you be so horrified by this statement: 'Therefore, modern Romanian is not descended from Dacian at all'? There is not a single word in Romanian which can be certified as originating from Dacian. All of the presumed Dacian words in Romanian are in fact simillar to Albanian words.
1. Why would we need authors with "better knowledge of the Bastarnae"? Do you even know such authors existed? And let's not forget, still OR!
2. I know enough about such stuff, to realize when someone is making up or when he quotes scholars. Nevertheless I asked for reliable sources, and expectedly I received none, only rhetoric. EraNavigator's articles on Costoboci and Carpi are obvious cases of poorly referenced OR.
3. You can check EraNavigator's knowledge of Latin by reading Ammianus in any editions available:
Ammianus' Latin text: Europaei sunt Halani et Costobocae gentesque Scytharum innumerae
EraNavigator's quote: gentes Costobocae (sic!)
Loeb edition: European Halani, the Costobocae, and innumerable Scythian tribes
EraNavgiator's translation: Costobocan tribes
I guess he doesn't know how the enclitic "que" works. Senatus Populusque Romanus means "the Senat and the Roman people", not "the Senat, the people, and the Roman" ;)
Actually, that is wrong, too. Que does not directly translate to "and"; it "is used especially where the two members have an internal connection with each other" (Bennett's New Latin Grammar, apparently) A better translation would be "The Europeans are / the Halani / and the Costobocae *with* (among? one of the?) the tribes of the innumerable Scythians", suggesting that the Costobocae are connected to Scythians. If Ammianus simply meant to list -- "Halani, Costobocae, and the Scythian tribes" -- he would have just used "et" instead of "que".
senatus populusque romanus = the Senate "and" (meaning "with", or "connected to") the populace -of- Rome
costobocae gentesque scytharum innumerae = Costobocae *with* the tribes -of- the innumerable Scythians
Are you serious? In Senatus Populusque Romanus, even you translated "-que" by "and", so how am I wrong? The Loeb translation is just fine (Costobocae and countless Scythian tribes), and frankly your rebuttal is OR if anything. Yes, que-relation is stronger than et-relation, but still that word is translated directly to "and" ( etc.) And certainly Ammianus does not say the Costobocae were a group of tribes as EraNavigator wants to read here (Costobocae gentes (sic!)). Halani were one tribe, Costobocae were another tribe, and there were countless others. So I'm not wrong at all! Daizus (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
4. 50% chance of not being Dacian? And 40% chance of being Tibetan, right? Where do you get this stuff? Look, I don't know if Costoboci were Dacian or not, but at least those few names of theirs were showed to be Dacian over and over by scholars (maybe they were Sarmatians having Dacian names, I don't know, if you have a reliable source for this theory, you can cite it in the article).
5. Modern Romanian language is not descended from Dacian at all, but from Latin. You know next to nothing about me and my beliefs, stop making a fool of yourself ;) I am not the one talking about Romanians in Dacian topics (but you, EraNavigator, CodrinB and others), I am not the one liking or hating ancient tribes, so how am I an ideologue? What are my theories, anyway?
6. As for Romanian and Albanian, yes, Proto-Albanian is identified with Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian or whatever unknown language, so here's your source for those Romanian words (oh no, Dacian too, teh horror! but you hate them so let's rule out that possibility)
7. In the end, you did nothing to prove such theories are anything but OR. You showed quite the opposite, you'll support any fringe theories as long as they are not what some/most Romanian scholars argue (in your own words, you "want to compensate"). The decision to use other maps in those articles was eventually a good one. Daizus (talk) 10:37, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
P.S. You mentioned both Hxseek and EraNavigator, however my answer considered only the contributions of the latter. IMO, Hxseek is much more knowledgeable and at the same time more neutral. Read carefully his opinions and arguments, I think he has some answers you seek. Daizus (talk) 15:18, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
1. You were the one who doubted what Pliny the Elder and Tacitus wrote of the Bastarnae, not me. You are the one who needs to come forward with some other contemporary author who contradicts what they say.
2. So you claim you can precisely determine when someone is making up original theories. I wonder who made you the judge?
3. I second Agamemnus on what he said. Or perhaps we should also accuse the guys who wrote the Bennett's New Latin Grammar of OR, right?
4. I see that you now agree with what EraNavigator states, that the Costoboci were of uncertain origin (either Dacian or Sarmatian, or maybe a mixture of the two ethnic identities). If you agree the same goes for the Carpi then the case is closed and the 2 tribes will remain labelled as of uncertain origin on my map. I'm glad we solved at least one of the problems.
5. Yes you are an ideologue (perhaps unwillingly), one who is promoting obsolete National-Communist pseudo-historical truisms, like Bichir's conclusion that the Carpi were Dacian, or that a Daco-Roman continuity existed across entire modern Romania, theories based solely on archeological findings, a method classified as unscientific by modern scholars. You are causing much embarrassment to the younger generation of Romanian historians.
6. Wow, you really pointed out what I wanted to. Thank you very much! So, if proto-Albanian is identified with Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian, and you acknowledge the linguistic affinities of Albanian with Balto-Slavic (at least that's what E.P. Hamp's 'Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics' says) then you must agree that Thracian, Illyrian and Dacian were not isolated languages, and that a linguistic continuum existed across Eastern Europe.
7. No, you are the one promoting theories which are gradually becoming peripheric in Romanian Academia.
8. Hxseek had no objections to Dacian being clasiffied as Balto-Slavic and he even volunteered to provide some references in support of my map.
1. You're building a straw man. Cassius Dio says the Bastarnae are Scythians. Strabo says the Roxolani were a Bastarnic tribes. You're choosing to believe Pliny and Tacitus and not the others, and that's original research.
2. No one made me a judge, but the proof is when I ask for reliable sources and people can't provide them. You, for instance, are one of them.
3. Who cares? The Loeb editions are reliable sources, you and Agamemnus are not (he used a forum for source, and Bennett's New Latin Grammar says what I said: that -que means "and"!)
4. EraNavigator insisted that you should make Costoboci a Sarmatian tribe on your map.
5. I don't know what you're smoking but that's some heavy stuff. I don't promote "obsolete National-Communist pseudo-historical truisms", I don't even have Bichir's books. I don't believe "Daco-Roman continuity existed across entire modern Romania" and to be sure, I can't be an "embarrassment to the younger generation of Romanian historians", because I'm not one of them. Since all your assertions on me were blatant lies, now who's the ideologue? :)
6. I very much doubt that. I don't acknowledge any particular linguistic affinities of Albanian with Balto-Slavic (Hamp has his point of view, there are others), and I said Proto-Albanian can be "Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian" (or means not all three at once!). These languages are not isolates, they are all Indo-European languages (try to use some words you know their meaning, ok?). Today you have the same Indo-European "linguistic continuum" (sic!) (except some enclaves like Magyar or Basque), but if you imagine there's something special about Romanian and Ukrainian because of some words in common, then you're really off the track.
7. I always provided sources (most of them not even Romanian, but I guess that's too much for you to observe) for my claims in those articles, you just whine.
8. Yeah, sure! But until Hxseek or God Almighty will give you a reliable source saying Dacian is a Balto-Slavic language, I will remove your map from articles on Dacian topics. Daizus (talk) 03:29, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Daizus 100%! Please start meaningful, respectful conversations, based on verifiable facts and reliable sources on the corresponding article talk pages. I invite those with Dacian-Baltic connection theory to start that separate page and add all the knowledge you have, as long as is not original research.--Codrin.B (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
OK. I give up. So you want me to reintroduce the Dacian linguistic group. But then should I maintain the Carpi and Costoboci classified as Uncertain or should I color them as being Dacian?
I hope this will make you keep my map in the Dacia-related articles.
Honestly, I think the best and most neutral way is to abandon "linguistic research" on that map. But if you all really believe this map should also show languages, I vote for as many "uncertains" as possible. I think you should put in "uncertain" Daci, Costoboci, Carpi, Veneti, Bastarnae and probably several others. Daizus (talk) 03:50, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Still I cannot simply abandon EraNavigator and the idea that a Balto-Slavic linguistic continuum existed between the Balkan Mountains and the Baltic Sea. Maybe it would be better to have two maps, one supporting the Balto-Slavic hypothesis and one without any ethno-linguistic classifications. What do you think?
In any case I want to remake the map of Roman Dacia as well and add the topography on it. But this will be later, perhaps at the beginning of March.
Now I want to do some research on the history of Christianity in the Northern Balkans between the 4th and 7th century.
In the end I have to thank you and Codrin for giving me the opportunity to practice my English and to enjoy this interesting debate. You know, I don't really care if the Dacians were Balto-Slavs or Thracians, if there was a Daco-Roman continuity in Dacia after 271 or if the Vlachs came from south of the Danube during the Middle Ages. It's just that sometimes I like to take one side in order to have some fun battling other people.
I am very happy we finally came to terms :-) Happy to help you practice the English. :-) I vote the version prior to November 19, when Daci were blue and had their own distinct grouping. That's the most important part I think. If you want to keep the Carpi and Costoboci blue as well, until we clarify all their corresponding articles and the Dacian-Baltic theory, that would be super. If you want to chose another color for them plus Bastarnae as uncertain, I could live with that. Thanks again!--Codrin.B (talk) 04:24, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh boy, I was gone for a moment reading an anti-protochronistic blog and look what's going on my talk page! :-) I welcome the dialog guys, I like the tone. Andrei, a few points:
I have to agree with Daizus, you can't make the Dacians Slavs using a fringe theory out of a desire to compensate with some Dacoman movements (I don't like to call them "Dacologists", I believe the term has to salvaged and restored to the respectful place, next to "Thracologist" and "Egyptologist")
I wasn't accusing you of original research, your seem to be doing the graphics, but I have to second Daizus when it comes to EraNavigator's "work". The guys is smart and seems to know a lot, but I think he has a serious problem understanding the Misplaced Pages's policy regarding original research. As I was saying in other places, I'll be happy to read books by him but I don't want to see his early, unpublished creations in Misplaced Pages.
You didn't seem to have a problem with the Dacian grouping and and color until November 2010, when Era convinced you to make those changes. I think you should revert to that model until more, better science comes along. It is not a protochronistic move.
I don't think you should accuse Daizus of protochronism since he recently proposed the merger of Dacian script to that main article :-) I respect his opinion and I think he is very neutral.
I am also striving to stay neutral too, but I cannot stay away from the actions of some who not in good faith are working to remove or mess up Dacia related articles, part of a very aggressive anti-protochronist police. Some actions might be right, but some are very dubious and nasty, pointing to the anti-Romanian, anti-Dacian agenda of some people, which goes beyond fighting Dacomans (they only invoke that as excuse to destroy).
I started the WikiProject Dacia in good faith without any agenda. I put a lot of work in it and I did it because I believe that the story of Dacians deserves to be told and made available to English speakers. Most articles are in bad shape and need a structure to organize them.
I don't endorse Dacomans and theories about Pelasgians ruling the World, but I believe their (not all negative) nationalism and energy, if done wisely, can be channeled toward the creation of missing content, which can be then cleaned up by specialists. After all, with the exception of some extremists, they are young guys who want to know and lover their history. In other words I believe in inclusionism and incrementalism, as the foundational principles of Misplaced Pages.
Are you sure all these words are certified Albanian words? Let's not be so masochistic about our own history and kill the Dacians, please! There are plenty of people looking to do it anyway. --Codrin.B (talk) 05:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Regarding Carpi and Costoboci, logic should tell you that it is impossible that in 106 AD, all Dacians disappeared (abducted by aliens?), all their Davae outside Dacia Trajana got replaced instantly by inhabitants from other nations. Or alternatively, that the borders of Dacian Trajana define the only territory where the Dacians every lived, and therefore outside them, in 106 AD, there were no Free Dacians. According to historical sources they had a numerous army and population, and they should have had, in order too keep the Celts, Germanic tribes, Sarmatians, Macedonians from conquering them before the Romans. And all nations conquered by Romans had groups or tribes staying outside the lost territory, raiding inside the newly acquired Roman land, and trying to get what they lost back or at least have some guerrilla/resistance war. German, Celts, Persians all did it. It is only logical to assume that Dacian Carpi and Costoboci (maybe allied and mixed with others), did the same. Besides, there are plenty of reports showing Dacians raiding Romans south of Danube, before 101 AD, trying perhaps to get back their Davae and reclaim territory that Burebista had. It sounds like too much bullshit to me to say something radically different. And in the desire to combat Dacomania and Neo-Protochronism, we cannot just embrace all the fringe theories that strive to remove Dacians in any shape or form.
To me, saying that the Dacians were nothing, maybe some Slavs, which quickly disappeared, is by no means less extreme or valid than the protochronistic theories. The truth is always in the middle.
I think you have to find a way to love Dacians again. You can diminish their role, but I am sure parts of them, are in you. And you can't allow to hate yourself or be a hypocrite. Your quest for truth is great and your desire to put Dacians in their rightful place is understandable, but try to not put them in the wrong place. I think that we should put all the knowledge together first, create all missing articles, consult all possible sources, and only then reassess articles/maps and do dramatic changes. Too much is missing to make decisions.
1. I'm not classifying the Dacians as Balto-Slavic because I want to compensate for the theories of some crazy Dacomans. Don't mix up what I said above. I've asked Hxseek to come up with some references for the links between Dacian and the Baltic Languages.
2. Whether EraNavigator has broken the wiki policies on original research should be decided by the administrators, not by us.
3. That's because I didn't paid much attention to the issue of Dacian linguistic affiliation until then.
4. OK. But I want to see he has no problem if in the near future (10-20 years) the Dacians were to be treated by Romanian and foreign historians as a people with almost no links to modern Romanians whatsoever.
5. And I strongly support (as any Romanian of good faith should) the aggressive anti-protochronist police EraNavigator is pioneering here on Misplaced Pages. You really disappointed me when you mixed the anti-Dacian with the anti-Romanian agenda. I believe an anti-Dacian agenda (with a strong emphasis on anti-protochronism) can only be good for the future of Romanian historiography. The Dacians have contributed to the Romanian Erhnogenesis as much as the Gepids or Cumans, they had a valuable albeit minor role. I believe Dacians are to Romanians what ancient Phrygians are to modern Turks.
7. You mean their anti-nationalism and mockering of what Romania really is: an Eastern-Romance nation bearing the name of the former Eastern Roman Empire. They are only causing embarassment to the younger and open-minded generation of Romanian historians. The Dacians ought to be studied bare of any nationalistic passions.
8. But this is the truth. We don't know for certain if we have any surviving Dacian words in Romanian. I wish we could know for certain that some words were 100% of Dacian origin.
9. Well the Dacians are present on my map, West of Siret river, in Northern Muntenia, Western Moldavia and Northern Transylvania. These were the Free Dacians. My only desire is that we should stop overemphasising the importance of Dacians in Romanian history. The history of the Romanized Thraco-Germano-Illyrians in the 3-6 centuries is far, far more valuable for modern Romania.
10. The Dacians were not Slavs! I only suggest they were linguistically related to the Balts.
11. I am more interested in the history of the Later Roman Empire (3-6 c.), particularly that of the Roman provinces in the Northern and Western Balkans. I will never treasure a people who worshipped their god (Zalmoxis) with human sacrifices. I just can't do it, the Dacians will never be part of me.
Andrei, You gave me some great arguments which I accept, but overall, I am sorry to see that you are so negative and anti-Dacian. You are trying to separated from being also anti-Romanian but is a very twisted way of thinking. Honestly, everyone will associate the two whether you like it or not. I think to put Dacians and Gepids on the same level is unfortunate and unacceptable. We have almost nothing from those people, compared to what we have from Dacians. Not even close! Are you under the impression that Huns, Germanics, Illyrians and even Romans were less barbaric in their wars and religious practices that Dacians? I am sorry, but you are very anti-Dacian, which explains the changes you did. You are promoting a hate police? All this is immature, unbalanced, unwise and will bring only conflict and no solutions. The actions of this police are breaking many Misplaced Pages policies, from uncivility, to harassment, war edits and almost vandalism, abusing and misunderstanding the WP:NOT#DEM. This is not what sensible Wikipedians should do. Your attitude might created more Dacomans than you can kill. Because control and imposing views by force, aka Dictatorship and Inquisition, never work. Never. You have to lead by example and teach others in order to win the on your side. I suggest you keep an open mind and heart, stay positive, be wise, try to keep and look at a glass half full then half empty. The maps you are creating are great.--Codrin.B (talk) 06:55, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, I don't like associating the Dacians with modern Romanians. It would be like associating ancient Phrygians to modern Turks or ancient Babilonians to modern Iraqis. Why should any Romanian bother to trace his ethnic past to the Dacians when we barely have anything left from then, except for some ruins. I think anyone should instead be horrified by their despisal for human life.
I hope you noticed the recent archeological findings related to the Gepids, such as the Franziska Tesaurus (1996) or the Vlaha Necropolis (2004). In case you were wondering why these remarcable discoveries were made only after 1989 you should know (just in case you didn't) that during Communism funds were almost entirely allocated for Dacian-related sites or for other sites attesting the 'undoubtful continuity of the Daco-Romans' all over modern Romania. Yet another reason not to be enthusiastic about the Dacians or Continuity theories.
How can you say I am breaking Misplaced Pages policies if I am condemning highly unscientific and discredited pseudo-historical tendencies such as Protochronism and Dacology? I said the focus should be on the protochronist predilections and on avoiding to overemphasize or idylize the role of Dacians in Romanian history.
Of course the Huns, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians and others were at least as savage as the Dacians were, but the Romans gained a moral ascendency after they adopted Christiniaty in the 4th century. You have to admit it was a revolutionary religion for that period, and its embracement by the Empire was a step forward towards a more humane society. It was exactly Christianity and the Roman-Catholic Church which successfully preserved and even expanded the legacy of the Roman Empire in Western and Northern Europe, even after 476. The same happened in the Balkans as the Vlachs survived and Romanized (or Wallachianized) new regions north of the Danube thanks to the intense activity of the Latin-speaking clergy from the Iustiniana Prima Archbishopric or from other major centres of religious activity north of the Jirecek line.
And why have you deleted the message from Dahn? Do you feel ashamed by your trolling activities?
Andrei, please be more mature and positive. Again very negative and provocative. I removed negative messages which do nothing good. User Dahn, with whom I am trying to establish peace, did an equal amount of trolling during the heated debates. Here is very long List of Dacian towns and Davae. Many of them also coincide with most major cities in Romania proving continuity. There is also a huge list of unnamed Dacian settlements in this list of historical sites. And then who knows how many are underground. And I did not include the Dacian settlements in neighboring countries. Please give me a list of Gepid towns please. Thank you.--Codrin.B (talk) 08:18, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid you're wasting your time if you're trying to convince me to be more enthusiastic about the Dacians or to support the Daco-Roman Continuity all over modern Romania or even on the entire territory of former Dacia province. The trend is changing since at least 2000 and I urge you to take this into account. You're wasting your energy on something unrewarding and which is not helping Romania to finally overcome the Communist legacy.
Are you kidding me trying to make me believe continuous habitation equates to ethno-linguistic continuity? Hah! Codrin, please be more mature and realistic!
I'm afraid this conversation is going nowhere so I'll leave you to your energy-sucking Dacians. Nice chat anyway. Thank you for making me more secure and determined about the theories and principles I decided to believe in, which of course will be promoted here only by respecting all Misplaced Pages regulations.
Thanks. In text, as people often say, the inflection of words and gestures is lost. So, at the risk of "sounding" like an egotistical maniac, I appreciate your apology! --Agamemnus (talk) 09:07, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Shame on you, Codrin.B! You have assumed leadership of the Dacia project, and yet you do not act as an impartial arbiter. You should know better than to take sides in the disputes. Instead of encouraging people with new ideas to get involved, you have backed the outrageous tactics of Daizus and the Anonymous editor in the Carpi (people) and Costoboci articles - arbitrarily removing content without a consensus, inserting unreferenced material, and now replacing the superb map of the Empire created specially for Misplaced Pages by Andrei Nacu and me, which shows every river, region and barbarian people mentioned in the article with a completely irrelevant map of Roman Dacia - simply because the Geto-Daco-Romanists don't like a few rubrics. You have supported their demand that the Carpi and Costoboci be shown as Dacian-speakers, even though the evidence (and the CAH) do not warrant this.
If you see your role simply as the watchdog of Geto-Daco-Romanic continuity orthodoxy, then your project will get nowhere. Any contributor who wants to open up the debate and explore new possibilities will simply not bother to get involved, and you will be left with a series of boring articles parroting the tired shibboleths of a largely discredited theory. You might as well simply translate the relevant Romanian wiki articles into English and be done with it. By I think our readers deserve much better than this.
If you want your project to succeed, you must adopt a strictly neutral position in academic disputes e.g. with the linguistic affiliation of the Carpi and Costoboci, you should back an "uncertain" classification, as that is the neutral position. You must also stop the edit wars, instead of complacently presiding over them. You should ban the tactics of Daizus and co. You should not allow content to be removed without a consensus (which must obviously include the agreement of the main author) unless that content is irrelevant or not properly referenced. You must also ban any unreferenced contributions. Anonymous is the big offender here (at least Daizus provides refs for his input): despite repeated invitations, Anonymous has refused to get a Username. Early on, he let slip that he had "lost" his previous Username: does this mean he was banned from editing? I would not be surprised if he was, given his modus operandi. Although he has made a few useful contributions, most of Anonymous' input has been negative, and you need to rein him in hard; if he does not respond, get his computer no. banned as well. You must also ban personal abuse: if you look at the debate above, I have been called ignorant, biased, and even dishonest. This is unacceptable. Above all, you must encourage people to explore ideas outside the orthodoxy, instead of ganging up with the Geto-Daco-Romanists to suppress their contributions - otherwise the whole exercise is a waste of time. EraNavigator (talk) 12:47, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Look, if want to say something to me, don't accuse me on someone else's talk page. Let's check my "outrageous tactics".
I replaced the map, because you requestedtwice Costoboci to be shown as Sarmatians (and where currently Dacians are Balts). On the current map the readers can see a probable location of this tribe with no other speculations and agendas.
I removed original research and POV-pushing making the Costoboci Sarmatians. Now the lead says "The Costoboci were an ancient tribe ..." Outrage! Not a Sarmatian tribe?
I removed diatribes against Romanian scholars and other irrelevant information (about Anglo-Saxon burials or whatever).
I removed or questioned the unsourced claims and the un-encyclopaedic insinuations (that scholar's X evidence is inadequate, inconsistent, etc) Daizus (talk) 13:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I have discussed all my edits on the talk page and in commentaries. You replied but you did not answer to my criticisms (on onomastics, on Ammianus, etc). Meanwhile the article was flagged with multiple problems and requiring expert attention. So here I am.
If you believe any of your former edits is of any value or relevance, you can argue on the talk page. Please note I questioned all your Batty refs, and so far you did not answer. If you refuse to answer, those dubious claims will have to go, too. Daizus (talk) 13:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
You know, I was against the proposal of making the Costoboci Sarmatian on my map (see the former discussion on my talk page) and I offered myself to provide EraNavigator with some more recent Romanian works on this subject so that he could forget what Bichir and other Communsits wrote about the Carpi and Costoboci. Still, you cannot argue for the map replacement simply beacsue of an unsatisfied request from EraNavigator.
Andrei, my feeling is that your map is subject to EraNavigator's mood swings. You made Dacian Balto-Slavic when he asked you to (even though acknowledged to be just a speculation). I cannot endorse a map used by editors to push views which are fringe or not present in the text of those articles. A map should be stable (as your map on Roman Dacia). This map isn't. On his talk page you said "I was thinking of classifying the Daci, and perhaps the Bastarnae as well, as Uncertain. Don't get upset, this will only be a temporary edit (I hope)". So how can I endorse a map where neutrality is considered a "temporary edit"? This is not only about Costoboci, but about that "linguistic research" I mentioned above. I'm sorry for my skepticism, but I'm still waiting to see a honest intention behind that map. Daizus (talk) 14:06, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Come on, this map would have never been completed if it were for Era's mood swings. Are you ignoring the 3 modern cartographic sources I mentioned in the summary of my map? I believed Dacian was related to the Baltic Languages long before EraNavigator made his request and I was happy he shared my view. Seeing I was not the only one supporting this theory made me more secure to make the change to the Empire map. Now, until EraNavigator (or Hxseek, or someone else) comes with some solid references prooving that Dacian was indeed related to Baltic the Daci will be labelled as Uncertain. I will make the according changes later this evening. If Era will finally be able to support the Balto-Slavic linguistic continuum with some certain references then the map will have to be reverted to its current version. I'm not keen on making Dacians Balto-Slavs or Costoboci Sarmatian but we have to sometimes allow people to explore and promote different theories or ideas.
Ok: based on your and Era's mood swings :) I don't know why you say the map would have never completed, because it's completed for a while, but still changes, and often not in a good way. You can believe whatever you like, as long as that belief doesn't affect your work. That's what neutrality is. It's nice to explore, but you can do that in libraries, on blogs, forums, and so on. An encyclopedia should reflect. Your map has indeed cartographic sources (but also non-cartographic ones, such as Tacitus), however it does not always reflect them. By the way, are you aware of WP:SYN?
Your map is great as a map of the Roman Empire (as it was initially conceived, I guess), but not as a map of the barbarian world. For an article like Costoboci it would be so much better to have a map of the South-Eastern Europe showing the Roman border, important sites (such as Eleusis), important tribes (Costoboci, Hasdingi, Marcomanni, etc) and maybe important battles. But hey, why make something really nice and useful? Daizus (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Daizus, you have no right to trawl through my communications and discussions with my mapmaker and regurgitate long-past quotes in your campaign to discredit the map. Andrei and I have been working on this map (on and off) for over two years, and obviously, as we have done research, some of our views have evolved (and not because of "mood-swings"!) You have a right to criticise the rubrics as they stand now - and only their merits, not on the basis of what I may have said long ago. EraNavigator (talk) 15:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Cry me a river. I have the right to intervene whenever and wherever I want. You don't like it, report me. My criticism is not at all about "what you may have said long ago", but about what you said in late 2010, and early 2011.
As for your "research", ha, ha! When you're excited about a new book you read, you say it confirms your ideas. You've been asked repeatedly for sources and citations, and you failed to provide them. If you want to prove something, then prove it with sources, not with whining. Daizus (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I will make a new map of Roman Dacia, Moesia and parts of Dalmatia and Pannonia in the coming weeks so you won't have to wait for too long for a really nice and useful map of South-Eastern Europe.
Andrei (talk) 15:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I would really appreciate if you can provide me some reference maps. And of course if we are talking about Romanian sources I need maps published after 1989, or after 2000 would be even better. Thank you in advance.
I would be more than happy to help clarify this situation, I already know the books required to provide vierifiable, non-POV views on this matter. This will take me a few days, so if all parties concerned can take some time out for now, that would be good.
To briefly outline my arguement will be along the following lines
(1) As we all know, the evidence for Dacian is frustratingly poor. Some scholars have seen particular affinity with Baltic, but this does not mean it is, or vice -versa
(2) The evidence for what languages the peoples known as Carpi, Costoboci, Veneti, basternae spoke is non-existent. I know that well-reputed and otherwise uniterested historians (eg Malcolm Todd - not a Slav or Romanian) have postulated various things, include a variety of 'mixture' scenarios. This might well warrant mention, however, it doe not overcome the previous point.
(3) We must also take heed of the fact that lingusitic affilitation does not imply any ethnic homonymy (although it does today). Eg the Carpi were NOT Dacians. Simply, because, when the Romans spoke of "Dacians", they referred to Decebalius (& his ancestors) and his men in what became Roman dacia. The (unsupported) idea that Carpi spoke Dacian has not come from any evidence, but from Romanian scholarship simply assuming that they "must have been" Dacian just because they lived in what is now modern Moldavia, or from following a few fragmentery lines of writing which suggests that some Dacians might have fled there after Roman defeat
(4) Nor, do I suppose that the Carpi were Slavs. Even if they spoke a language (eg a precursor, or relative) like Slavic, the Slavs first appear as a defined ethno-political group in the 6th century, so they could not have been Slavic either ! I think Era's efforts on the Carpi (and Andrei's maps) are commendable, and are not fringe - becuase if one looks at things fairly, all theories about them are FRINGE given the lack of any solid evidence !
(5) The only thing we do know is that they occasionaly raided Rome, and they lived in huts, used pottery and certain fibulae similar to other groups in the Moldavia & Ukraine region in Late Roman times. Hardly surprising
I think we are having difficulties here precisely because modern scholarship has approached the issue poorly. One has to admit, westerners are far better at deconstructing national origin myths and identities than those from SEE. Hxseek (talk) 04:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Hxseek! Very pertinent. If you don't mind, please add your thoughts on the corresponding article talk pages like Talk:Carpi (people), so everyone can pitch in. But what do you recommend for the map at his point? --Codrin.B (talk) 04:14, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
WRT the map, I'd do away totally with trying to 'categorize' the barbarian groups into ethno-linguistic groups - because they defy such neat definition. Even obviously 'Germanic' groups were only called that by ROmans, and not themselves. The fact that Frisians and Saxons might have spoken related dialects did not mean they saw themselves as the same. (This only became apparent to them much later in history). As another illustrative point, despite the fact that the Goths spoke Germanic, they were never actualy called Germanen by the ROmans, rather either simply Goths or Scythians ! THe situation for our area of interest is even more complicated
I want to raise the issue of the multiple-tags that you attached to the articles Carpi (people) and Costoboci. While I don't claim that these articles are perfect and cannot be improved, the tags seem unwarranted. Most of the citation tags were (wrongly) placed in the summary sections, where citations are not necessary if the statements in question are referenced in the main text. The main text itself is fully referenced, with both ancient and modern sources (20 secondary modern sources in Carpi alone). The neutrality is only disputed by those who think that neutrality requires support for the Daco-Roman continuity theory. If you read through the articles again, you will see thatr all theories are given a fair hearing. The summaries are certainly not long in relation to the main text. As for confusion for readers, this has only been caused by arbitrary removals of text by Anonymous editor, damaging the text's coherence. The consequence of sticking all those tags is to make the articles appear really poor-quality, which is a travesty: if you look at the articles on the same subjects in other languages, you will see that the English ones are far and away superior and more comprehensive. I therefore think that you should remove the tags. You should rely on your own reading of the articles, not on the complaints of others. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 18:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I was talking to our good friend, EraNavigator. I guess, you didn't read his message above mine in your page. Anyway, no worries. --Codrin.B (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Wiki-project Dacia
Dear Codrin, I want to point out a few things regarding the Dacia wikiproject. First of all, if you want people like me to make a contribution you should discourage the monopolization of this project by the Getae and Dacians. I suggest you remove the bust of that Dacian pileati from the project template. You should instead use a map with the location of the geographic region of Dacia. Secondly, we should also cover the period after 271, namely the barbarian tribes which came to inhabit Dacia after the Roman withrawal. I would be more than happy to write about the Gepids, Goths or Taifals. Please understand that the history of Dacia does not cover only the history of the Dacians as an ethno-linguistic group!
If you write about "ethno-linguistic groups", Dacians are probably the most relevant such group (but true, not the only) for Dacia. It's up to how history is understood.
Neither Gepids, nor Goths, nor Taifals lived in Dacia, because by then the province of Dacia was south of Danube. Well, some Gepids, some Goths, some Taifals did, but all of them were on Roman territory, as soldiers, merchants, colonists, and so on. The Gepidic kingdom was no Dacia (perhaps for authors like Jordanes, but he was writing a history of Scythians-Getae-Goths thus he had his agenda). Any history of Dacia is the history of the Dacian kingdom and of the Roman provinces of Dacia. The history of the modern territory of Romania is an entirely different matter, and indeed this history covers Dacians, but also Gepids, Goths and Taifals. Daizus (talk) 14:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Than please change the name of this project to Wiki-project Kingdom of Dacia. And if you say that any history of Dacia is also the history of the Roman provinces of Dacia than why keep that pileati bust on the project template?
There's no need to rename. I explained here who were Dacians for Romans.
As for the picture, what do you think is the best picture to represent this project? I would say Decebalus (Dacia got its name from Daci, and Decebalus is the most famous and probably important character in their history), but you may have different thoughts about it. Daizus (talk) 14:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
In this case I will make a few suggestions:
1. Replace the bust of the Dacian pileati with something more neutral, perhaps a map showing the geographic region of Dacia during Antiquity.
2. Replace this line from the project template: 'coverage of Dacia and Geto-Dacians on Misplaced Pages' with 'coverage of the Dacian kingdom and of the Roman provinces of Dacia on Misplaced Pages'.
Thanks for reaching out. Here are my points and thinking:
I tried using a map, but it is not as visually appealing as a sculpture done by the Romans themselves. Actually, I was just reading this blog about the large number of Dacian statues made by Romans. Leonard Velcescu did a PhD in art on this subject and found over a hundred of them. One wonders why the Romans represented so many Dacians, and didn't do the same for Celts, Iberians, Illyrians, Thracians or Germanic tribes? One puzzling question, why are they not in chains?
I am more interested in the long period before 271 AD. Dacia after 271, as Dazius mentioned, is not really Dacia anymore, not in the known classical sense. But the period post 271 and the faith of Dacians is also of interest to the project, so I want to hear about the Migration Period as well and many such articles would be in scope of course.
To be 100% correct or precise, the project should probably be named "The culture of Dacians, Getae and Moesi", or to achieve a larger scope, Paleo-Balkans, to include Thracians and Illyrians as well. But Dacia is the most preeminent and large territory and space, which most people probably heard of. I think there is plenty of content and articles to justify this scope, although it can certainly be extended.
The project doesn't plan to simply cover linguistics, but the entire culture with religion, art warfare,
I also believe in simplicity when creating something. Calling it simply Dacia is way better than "Dacians, Getae and Moesi" or "Paleo-Balkans", terms with no resonance for most people, even though they are correct in defining the scope.
Using the term Dacia, doesn't imply that others that lived in this space are excluded or that the focus is solely on the Dacians and Getae. There is a section about the relations with foreigners under {{Dacia topics}}. Feel free to contribute to the relations with the Germanic tribes, prior to and post 271, if you are very intrigued by it.
You seem to have a passion for the Migration Period and the Germanic and Turkic tribes that invaded, and in order to "make room" for the them, you then insist in minimizing the role of the Dacians in history. I have a passion and interest about the period prior to these migrations. Please respect my passion as I respect yours. Given that these people interacted, I think there is plenty of room for collaboration. I think you should contribute to this project, as well as to the Germanic tribes one and start a Migrations one. Projects often overlap. People from the Archaeology, European History, Greek and Roman Studies often contribute here as well, as there is obvious overlap.
1. And if the Romans created so many statues of Dacians prooves what? And you are quoting a Dacomanic blog which has the following intro: 'In what follows I will write about the greatest country, which spanned from Asia Minor to Iberia (the Iberian Peninsula in this case) and from Northern Africa to beyond Scandinavia, the enormous country of the Dacians'. So you're a Dacomanic protochronist afterall!
2. However during Constantine the Great authors spoke of 'Dacia restituta' when referring to the reconquest of a land strip north of the Danube in the early 4th century. Should I also mention that Constantine received the honorary title of Dacicus Maximus? You can't say the history of Dacia ends in 271. The Dacians were still active on the Danubian limes for at least another 50-80 years and we also have the 2 Dacia provinces created south of the Danube by Aurelian.
3. What you are doing is trying to ethnically cleanse Dacia of everything which is not Dacian. But I guess you wrongly believe doing this makes you a Romanian patriot. I feel sorry about you.
4,5,6. I kindly ask you again to remove the bust of the Dacian pileati and change the line about the '(sole) coverage of Geto-Dacians' from the project template. That's inducing people to believe the project is only about Getae and Dacians! The other tribes were not 'foreigners' as you like to think of them but are part of the history of Dacia as much as the Dacians are.
7. Maybe I'll do that. Thanks for the suggestion.
8. I respect your passion, but please accept the fact that the Dacian Kingdom and Dacia post 106 included not only Dacians or Daco-Romans, but Sarmatians, Germans, Celts and other tribes. Otherwise you will be just like a Hungarist trying to deny that Slovaks, Serbs or Romanians also had an important contribution to the history of the medieval Hungarian Kingdom.
In this case I got it wrong. I thought the Dacia project is, well, about Dacia (which was a kingdom and the name of several Roman provinces). Daizus (talk) 15:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
To Andrei:
1. I was afraid you will pick on the source, but please don't make false accusations or resort again to personal attacks. I tolerated enough of your attacks! Stop NOW! I don't care about the Dacomans and their agendas. I deeply disagree with their phantasmagorical ideas. But I always try to see the glass half full and keep an open mind. I would rather look over the fence at the enemy, listen to their points, see if their is any value, than altogether dismiss, label and ignore it. It is wise that way. From that article, personally, all I cared about are the actual pictures, and the opinion of the guy with the PhD, who is qualified and not a Dacoman. The fact that the Dacomans use his work and the pictures for their propaganda, is their problem. I have the ability to discern information and filter out the bullshit. I would of course rather read an article written by the Academia on this subject, but I fail to find one. And these Academia articles are missing not because there is nothing to say about Dacia, the guy did an PhD on it, but by lack of interest on Dacian history or out of fear of historians to be associated with Dacomans or Protochronism. A lot of kids don't go to study about Dacians anymore, they pick Medieval studies or other eras, precisely out of fear of being accused superficially of Dacomania or unhealthy nationalism, by people like you, quick to judge and put labels. It's a stupid dynamic, that is very detrimental to history and everyone. The Romanian Academia has to get its act together and get rid of Dacomans through research and force of example, showing their science, archaeology, VALUE. But they don't do it enough and effectively, and the Dacomans fill the void. Academia should write articles like this, in a rigorous manner, without the Dacoman bullshit in them. And I would pick them first to read. I hope this clarifies once and for all my position on this stupid Academia - Dacoman hate relationship, that shows immaturity, inability to communicate, resolve conflict and discredits deeply both sides.
2. I agree.
3. I feel deeply offended by these comments and misinterpretations. As I said at point, 6, everyone who lived in this time and space is included!
4,5,6. No matter what picture I will put, someone will always have a problem with it. It is the nature of the entire subject. I will think about other possibilities, but I think that work of art is great and very symbolic. And again, it doesn't exclude others. I would love to put a picture of Getae, Daci, Moesi, Romans, Sarmatians, Goths and Gepids holding hands in circle and smiling but I don't have that picture! :-)
7. You are welcomed. I'm sure you will have good contributions. Passion helps.
8. Please read point 6 again. I already said everyone that lived in this space and time.
If after all these further clarifications we are still in disagreement, I invite you to reflect on this American expression which I love: "let's agree to disagree". Most Europeans, especially Balkanic, Mediterranean or Latin-blooded fail to communicate without resorting to verbal (sometimes physical) violence and without trying to impose a point of view by force. If you love the Germanics that much, I assume you are also fond of the modern Anglo-Saxon mentality that promotes calm, wise, effective and respectful communication.
To Daizus:
Of course the core and the meat of the project is Dacia (which was a kingdom and the name of several Roman provinces) in the Classical times, till 271 AD. But as Andrei pointed out, there are other implications: what happened after 271 AD, the relations with Germanics, the invasions, the beginnings of Christianity, the Byzantine emperors born in Balkans etc. But I don't think it makes sense to go post 6th century AD. I think all articles that talk about Goths and their interactions with Dacians, or their presence in the land which they, themselves, called Dacia for a few more centuries, should at least be part of the project and marked with low importance. They are not of zero importance.
I will clarify the scope on the project space as well so no misinterpretations occur again. We had enough debate for the next 2 years. Let's focus on creative work, the reason we are all here, I hope. Thanks for your very useful input.
--Codrin.B (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
All right Codrin, I owe you an apology for the (hopefully) hazardous acussations I made on you. But you could at least change the line about the '(sole) coverage of Geto-Dacians' from the project template. Afterall you said you agree that Dacia (both the Kingdom and the post-106 Roman province and vicnity) had a multi-ethnic character.
I'm interested about the Germanics, Sarmatians, Celts and others as their rich history was ignored until quite recently because they didn't fit in the traditional Daco-Roman continuity paradigm. And I believe this has done great damage to Romanian historiography, even as much as the embracement of protochronism prior to 1989.
What about using a picture of Trajan's Column or a detail from it showing a skirmish fought during the Dacian Wars?
Apologies accepted. I put the scope and a big disclaimer in the intro page. Please review and provide input and suggestions. I agree that the value of other cultures has been minimized incorrectly and unfairly. I will think about it, but I would prefer no violence, a symbol of peace, calm and wise thinking, and you may call me again a Dacoman, but when I look at the face of that Dacian, I see it. After all, we had enough conflict, then and now. I am exhausted. I need a coffee.--Codrin.B (talk) 19:25, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
But you still haven't changed the template which is also present on the dicussion page of my map: http://en.wikipedia.org/File_talk:Roman_Empire_125.png. I can still see that line '(sole) coverage of Geto-Dacians'. Unless I don't see a change in the next 24 hours I will erase the Dacia wiki-project template from the talk page. And labelling Costoboci and Carpi as probable non-Dacian is ceratinly not original research or lacking neutrality.
Now, regarding the scope clarifications and disclaimers of the wiki-project I entirely disagree with most of what you wrote in the 'balance' section. Namely you say you condemn protochronism but next you state you equally condemn anti-Protochronistic aggressiveness. On which side are you really? You also wrote you are condemning any Anti-Romanian or Anti-Dacian agendas. What have the Romanians or modern Romania got to do with Dacia and the ancient Dacians. We cannot talk of a Romanian identity before at least the Late Middle Ages and modern Romania came into existance only at the end of the 19th century. What are you talking about?
What do you mean by 'we had enough conflict, then and now'? I honestly hope you don't believe you're the reincarnation of a Dacian who fought in Decebalus' army. That 'calm and wise thinking' Dacian might very well have been a bloodthirsty illiterate who didn't even cared about the lives of his own kind.
I will get to that template. Jesus Christs! Stop whining. Anti-protochronists may be 100% right, but I disagree with there methods of showing their superiority. What can't you understand? I am on the side of balance and PEACE, not of conflict. --Codrin.B (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
You're on the losing side Codrin. I can't collaborate with someone who thinks he's the reincarnation of a Dacian and who thinks Decebal is the best king Romania ever had. I'm afraid you will never prize Romania and its irreplaceable Eastern Roman and Christian character. Again I feel deeply sorry about you.
Who the hell said that I am in the reincarnation of a Dacian?!?! Those template were not made by me. You can talk to the creator. I personally think it should say the best king Dacia ever had. Stop interpreting my words as you see fit, attacking, and offending me. I gave you more than ENOUGH chances. This page is full of your personal attacks!! One MORE attack and I REPORT you! Take a walk! Have a nice weekend! --Codrin.B (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh brother you are hopeless. Should I remember you were the one talking about conflicts, now and then... long live Decebalus the greatest king of Romania, pardon Dacia! Please report me. Please, I'm begging you! I really want to see how you'll convince the administrators that I actually attacked or offended you.
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