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Revision as of 14:29, 16 February 2011

Politics Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Template This template does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Arab world Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world Template This template does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

change

I propose the following change:

Schizodelight (talk) 03:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

You should put that into the Template:2010–2011 Arab world protests/sandbox. 64.229.101.119 (talk) 04:56, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Other editors took those out, but I think they should be put back in, because they are just split articles from the Egypt protests, so they clearly have to do with this template. Silverseren 05:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Egypt's Domestic/International responses can be accessed through the main article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be implying that, per templates like this, more than ten secondary and tertiary articles, ones that were split from this article, should be gotten rid of because they are just articles that were split. However, clearly that is not how we do things. All pages that are related to the main subject, including pages split from the articles in it, are supposed to be linked to. Silverseren 18:07, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Split off Egypt

It has been suggested that some portions of this page be split into a new page titled Template:2011 Egyptian protests. (discuss)

The Egyptian protests are garnering multiple articles, so it should be split off into a separate template from this one. The Egyptian related subjects would be moved off to the new template, leaving only the main Egypt protest article on this template.

Considering the number of notable peopel connected to these protests, the nav template should be separated to provide better division between Egyptian and other Arab protests, and show what is clearly Egyptian topics.

184.144.161.207 (talk) 07:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Counter-proposal

Return the template to utilizing the style shown in this version. That would allow us to add the extra articles without any confusion in the template. Silverseren 07:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

oppose the split. (agree with SS) We already have an egypt revolutioon/protest template, and this is not big enough for egypt yet. it all fits in well here (some templates are HUGE, thi is manageable)

id either support SS or just add another section for "ther pages"(Lihaas (talk) 18:06, 10 February 2011 (UTC)).

Opppose. Let's just make our own separate template. It's a big enough deal to have one. Ocaasi (talk) 19:11, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

A template with only three to four articles seems kind of unnecessary. Sure, there are such templates out there, but they likely don't have an obvious, overarching template to add to like this does and is. Silverseren 22:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

See (and improve) Template:2011 Egyptian protests Ocaasi (talk) 22:14, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Groupings

I like the idea of having a template for the entire region's protests, but it seems too un-differentiated to have the people and political groups mashed together. I think if there are enough sub-articles for this template to make sense, than we have to break out the people/party sections by country in some way. Ocaasi (talk) 11:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I was just adding more and was thinking the asme. id support some sort of organisation though thin this overarching templat.Lihaas (talk) 19:10, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, we need to do something about this, but I'm not too familiar with template code. Just lumping all of these people and all of the parties together doesn't make sense and can't help readers. Would it make sense to just start with bold country breakouts, without altering the main structure, just so we can group the items? Ocaasi (talk) 21:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

that would be kay, but would it get too big?

Aklso can we create colu,ns in a template?

or see belowLihaas (talk) 22:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Columns would be okay too, though I don't know how to do it. Also, what is the point of having all of these details? Why not just link to the relevant country Protest page and leave it at that. People can find all of the links they want at the specific articles. Ocaasi (talk) 22:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

well, its the main point of the template really. quick-access to related subjects. i think when we reorg the template it may clear this up,.

so i propse we keep the current incarnation of the left side, and then add a top column for the countries, with the related matter below. how does that sound? or should it be vice versa?--Lihaas (talk) 20:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, then we need columns. And either way we do it it's going to be enormous. But I think we have to try with countries on top not the side. Either way I think this is a fool's errand. 10 countries times 3 arbitrary leaders times 3 arbitraries parties is 90 links! and it's growing daily and that would exclude several significant individuals and groups from each one. That's not a template, it's a mess, imo. We are better off having coherent template for the region (this one) and then sub-templates for each country. But I keep repeating myself. If others disagree, fix this template, cause as of now, it's not doing anyone good. I don't have a clue how to format columns, so I can't really get into it at the moment. Ocaasi (talk) 02:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Grouping proposal

The template is so messy. How about the following geographical grouping of the Arab world:

• The Levant: Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and Iraq.
• Arabia: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman and Yemen.
• Nile Valley: Egypt and Sudan.
• Maghreb: Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Western Sahara and Mauritania.
• Horn of Africa: Djibouti, Somalia and Eritrea.

82.137.200.10 (talk) 22:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

It's well considered, although most people don't recognize those geographical terms, and it still won't solve our too many details without categorization problem. Not sure that's the right fix, although it's a good idea. Ocaasi (talk) 11:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I've WP:BOLDly gone ahead and just grouped the protests into major (with its own WP article) and minor (just a section in the main article). D'accord? —Nightstallion 14:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Iran

I note that Iran has been removed from the template today. It is well known that Iran is not 'Arab' but the protests in Iran are clearly very highly connected to those which are occuring in Arab countries in the region (the 2010–2011 Arab world protests article already contains two paragraphs on the Iran protests), and to completely exclude Iran from this template is in my view the wrong approach.

I propose that either:

(1) a 'See also' section be added to the template, with a link to the Iran protests included there; or (2) a 'Concurrent protests outside the Arab world' section be added, with Iran included there.

Rangoon11 (talk) 12:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd prefer (2); we should then also include the other protests listed in the main article. —Nightstallion 14:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Whatever it ends up being called, the Iran protest article belongs in the template. --Muboshgu (talk) 15:04, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I added it for now as 'Related'. Continue to discuss final concensus on what to all it if you like, but leave for now. Flatterworld (talk) 16:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Major v. Minor

I thought about merging the two groups, as "Major" and "Minor" are subjective terms, but as I noticed a difference between the two groups was that the "Major" ones had their own articles while the "Minor"'s were sections in the main article, I thought that there might be some sort of distinction. If they are separated, though, it has to be by actual criteria beyond wiki notability. --Muboshgu (talk) 15:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

How about having two sub sections: 'Government overthrown' and 'Ongoing'? 'Major' and 'Minor', especially with fast-moving and controversial events like these, could be very difficult to pin down. Rangoon11 (talk) 15:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

See also

I removed Iranian link in this template: The reason is 1. Iranian are struggling for democracy (according to all major independent sources), 2. Arab world does not seem to be asking for that (apart from Aljazeera's claim), 3. The link between these two things are wp:or. Major sources do distinguish cases . And I think even collecting all the arab countries in one path is highly disputed (Tunisia differes greatly from Egypt and that from yeman and that from Jordan). I am concerend about aljazeera-ization of curent event in the middle east. This is, for freedon fighters in the middle east, very counter productive. Believe me. Xashaiar (talk) 16:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I do not know why everything is reverted. Please discuss the matters before reverting. I am not going to engage in revert game. Xashaiar (talk) 16:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Firstly whether or not you are genuniely pro or anti the protests is impossible for other editors to establish, and is in any case completely irrelevant. The Iranian protests are very closely connected with the protests in adjacent countries, and a massive number of citations could be quoted to demonstrate this if needed. To exclude the Iranian protests from this template would in my view be no less than censorship.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Please do concentrate on this issue. The point is that Iran's movement is not related to Egypt's movement. I am arguing: do not do wp:or. Xashaiar (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

A quick Google search reveals thousands of articles similar to this: There is absolutely no need for any original research.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Please do concentrate on the issue. If you believe in what you said then change the title of this template to something else. For example "2009-2011 protests in non-democratic countries" or similar things.. Then Iran HAS to be included by every means. Xashaiar (talk) 16:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually I tend to agree with you that the title of the template should now be changed to avoid discussions like this re-occuring and wasting time. There can be no doubt that the events in Iran and Egypt are as closely connected as the events in Egypt and, say, Yemen, and the title of the template is unhelpful in forcing non-Arab countries into a 'See also' or 'Related topics' section.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Now we need a new title. The point that "people are fighting against non-democratic issues in their countries and this is common between all these countries" is not disputed. We just need to put them under properly named flag. Xashaiar (talk) 17:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Could we consider "2009-2011 protests in the Middle east"? 17:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer something less geographically specific, such as 2010-2011 pro-democracy protests, which will completely avoid these issues.Rangoon11 (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Besides, not all involved countries are in the Middle East. --Muboshgu (talk) 17:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Maybe yourself do the renaming? Xashaiar (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I posted my reason for updating the template under the 'Iran' section. Please do NOT split the same discussion into other sections, such as this one. This is very confusing. Flatterworld (talk) 16:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Purpose of Templates

We use the most 'common' name for articles, to help the general public find what they're looking for. Same for what's included in a Template. If people expect to find a link to the Iranian protests article, then that's what we should provide. It's not Arab, which is why it's listed under 'Related'. Any article or template about an ongoing situation is expected to be fluid. There will be plenty of time to rearrange and rename after the dust has settled. This is not that time. We don't know where this is going, or where other protests may happen. Perhaps '2010-2011 Pro-democracy protests' may be a better title. Perhaps not. Flatterworld (talk) 17:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree a change of title from "2010–2011 Arab world protests" to "2009-2011 Pro-democracy protests" (maybe even better is "2009-2011 Pro-democratic movements"?). Xashaiar (talk) 17:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Minor point - it should be a lower-case 'p'. Otherwise I would be happy with the change. Rangoon11 (talk) 17:16, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, please yourself do the change you find best. Xashaiar (talk) 17:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

We also need to stay in sync with the title of the related article to avoid confusion. See Talk:2010-2011 Arab world protests#Renaming of article proposal and some following sections. Flatterworld (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The title of the related article is now changing every few seconds(!) so I think we should wait until there's consensus over there. I'm glad everyone's so interested in the topic. Whatever it is. ;-) Most importantly, many, many, many thanks to those who worked on this template. Whatever it ends up being called, it's very helpful. :-) Flatterworld (talk) 21:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

As long as this template is titled 2010–2011 Arab world protests, Iran has no place here. Iran is not an Arab country. The Iranian protests started long before the Arab uprisings. Kurdo777 (talk) 14:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Iran is not an Arab country to be listed in this template. Also the Iranian protests started in 2009. Please stop adding Iranian protests to this template. --Wayiran (talk) 14:29, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

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