Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:32, 27 April 2011

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Watchlist spam

One of the nice things about the rollback feature is that it allows one to quickly see if a particular edit is still the latest when looking at a user's contributions page. This is especially nice when checking for subsequent edits that might revert or modify a bold change. The same feature is also a quick way to browse a vandal's edit history, to see if they still have the last edit on any pages. This makes the mass edits generated by semi-automated tools, e.g., AWB, rather annoying. Bots, at least, can be hidden from watchlists, but every tiny AWB edit will jump right to the top, potentially obscuring more significant previous edits. I'm not suggesting that anything be done, but I would like to know how other users feel about this. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 10:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe the difference is in the oversight required. Having edits on everyone's watchlist makes sure people check them. AWB, as is included in the documentation, requires care - ultimately AWB edits do require checking. I don't know whether an option in preferences would be accepted, though, that seems less controversial that hiding anonymous users' edits, for which there is already an option. A javascript hack or similar might be on the cards as well. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this would help, but there's another issue: it's disconcerting that editors are making literally hundreds of thousands of edits to articles without appearing to read or evaluate them. For example, last month I read the short new article Hawaiian shame, and saw that an AWBer had tagged it for cleanup with uncategorized less than an hour after creation. Something just feels "off" to me about this — the lack of categories was one of the least important things about that new article. Yet because AWB is not a bot, tagging it implies that a human read the article and considered the tagged issue to be the most pressing concern. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 05:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not really how AWB works--all the operator needs to do is to approve the change being made on the page; there's no sense that the operator has actually looked over the full page. And if all you're doing is cross-categorizing pages, that's not necessarily a problem. When I see an AWB tag on an edit, I never assume the editor looked through the page or that the change was "pressing"; I simply assume that the editor felt the change(s) was useful and confirmed that it was appropriate before saving it. And then I check the change(s) myself to be sure. Also, doesn't AWB allow for changes to be marked as minor? I find the "minor edit" feature to be just as problematic in obscuring big changes if I have "hide minor edits" selected on my watchlist. Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:05, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Essay: When to link back to one from a policy page

Greetings. I just finished my first essay and I wasn't sure when an essay is considered good enough to link back to from the policy page. My essay is written to try and explain the Verifiability Policy to beginners. I don't want to link back to it from the main policy page unless it has already been peer reviewed; I don't want any problems. Any help would be appreciated. (Note: I wasn't sure which category this should go in, so I decided to play it safe and ask here. Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:10, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Very good work on that essay, Crisco. I would also say that there are stub articles with little or no inline citations, awaiting further effort by their creators or others. These are often geographical. See Cook's Creek, Pennsylvania Other than that, a very good start. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:32, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

You can also request copy-editing at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests. Notice that even very good articles aspiring to GA or FA status have requests for copy-editing, among others that are just plain weak in grammar and spelling. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

So just a little addition about uncited articles? I will look at it. Thanks for the input! But when is an essay considered to be good enough to be linked to in a policy page? Is there a peer review process? Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

There's no formal process for linking to essays from policy pages. Just ask on the policy's talk page, and if no one objects, or consensus favors adding it, then go ahead. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 05:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Fenzo. I will try that. Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Aw shucks. I went to this essay expecting it to be along the lines of "too much participation in discussing policy can be hazardous to your mental health", but it was about something else. (Now that topic would be worth writing about.) -- llywrch (talk) 16:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Yikes! Giant Pornographic Pic in an article about Porn

The article Hentai (explicitly pornographic Japanese comics) is illustrated with a really explicit image right at the top of the page. An editor who removed it said it was self-advertising, but the person who first placed it put it back saying Misplaced Pages is uncensored.

I don't really wish to get into the middle of this, but are there not problems with using this sort of imagery?

Or is it self-advertising after all and thus simply to be removed? It is not an example from any comic, but someone's personal drawing. The image when you click on it goes to a truly gigantic picture file, one so big you could print professional posters from it, which seems to have a ton of earlier states of the image also uploaded, as if the artist put up every version as he worked on it. I mean seriously, the file history just goes back and back. And it's HUGE! I originally linked to it in this message, but it was too gargantuan to include. It's File:Hadako-tan.png. And it's only use is in this one article.

Maybe if it has *any* reason to stay it could be put lower on the page so it's not the first thing you see? There are other illustrations, one classical Japanese and one from actual comics, which are appropriate and just fine.

But really, it looks like someone trying to game the Misplaced Pages system.Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

It's a compatibly licensed image depicting an example of the subject of the article and Misplaced Pages is NOTCENSORED. Seems fine to me and has no watermarks, so I don't get how it's advertising. This site has a long history of protecting "explicit" images in articles, so I doubt you'll have much luck trying to get an image of this type off the article. See also WP:PERENNIAL#Censor offensive images. — Bility (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored, period. That includes 'hiding' images, putting them further down the page, whatever. It's a perfectly relevant image, and I find the idea of being all squicky about sex utterly bizarre given where your username comes from. → ROUX ₪ 22:19, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages currently has no method to control content other than manually blocking individual images for logged-in users. There is an ongoing discussion on adding content control features; see meta:2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content: Part Two, especially the section User-Controlled Viewing Options. See also WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:CHILDPROTECT and Misplaced Pages:Guidance for younger editors. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  22:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The discussion about such features has actually progressed since the study's proposals, as recently reported in the Signpost: "'Personal image filter' to offer the ability to hide sexual or violent media" (however, there is still no decision by the Foundation to actually implement such a system).

Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The image, in my opinion, illustrates the topic well and is presented appropriately according to our conventional style guidelines. Of course if you click on it you'll get a larger version - that's true of all images. The full resolution image is for use in print versions, derivative works, etc. - only thumbnails are shown in articles, or on the image description page The correct way to link to images is with the syntax ], not with the syntax ]. Dcoetzee 23:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Dcoetzee, for the information on the linking syntax. It's interesting to hear what the Misplaced Pages policy is. I understand that Misplaced Pages needs to be honest. I do think it odd, though, that even the main article of Pornography does not have any imagery this explicit.Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

One can look at Phan Thị Kim Phúc or Thích Quảng Đức for, IMO, more graphic images than that. Although I must say, I'm not exactly sure why the lolicon image is in the hentai article; lolicon and hentai aren't really the same thing. Related, but separate. Maybe an otaku can confirm/correct that for me. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does the common sense idea "If you don't want to see porn, you shouldn't be looking at porn" not apply here? If the possibility of a topic offends one, why would one then seek out that topic? --Jayron32 02:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The hentai article says it's "sexually explicit or pornographic comics and animation, particularly those of Japanese origin", so lolicon would be a subset, not something entirely different. — Bility (talk) 02:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

My (albeit very limited) experience with lolicon is that it's not so much explicit as implied, but I don't doubt there is some that is explicit. I suppose that would make sense. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Since when is a user providing a completely free, high quality image to wikipedia "gaming the system"? No one would make the argument User:XXX is producing a couple dozen high quality maps and then placing them in their respective articles, they must be removed for self promotion, and by the way they are huge when you click on them, I mean, really big. And to one of the users up above who is calling the girl with adult sized body proportions (longer limbs in proportion to body) and the gigantic breasts a child because of her childlike facial features needs to look at an anime character sometime, yes they have big, cute eyes that take up half their face. You see this girl, she is fifty years old, but on another body could pass as a child.(site blacklisted) This girl looks underage, but she is in her 30s. It's called moe, Japanese like cute looking things, Japanese art in general uses pure lines and shapes, simple colors, and has a child like playfulness to it. The introduction of these conventions in anime of big eyes, and stylized characters is the natural extension of their culture into their animation, seeking to portray the essence of people and things rather than physically depicting them in a realistic manner.AerobicFox (talk) 03:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

If you're concerned about the size of an image, you can always make (or ask someone else to make) a low-resolution copy and link to that instead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

BAG nomination

I'm required by BAG policy to notify this noticeboard of my nomination for BAG member. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 07:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

report unethical behavior

Hi, I would like to know where can I report unethical behavior of a scientist (in this case a linguist) who systemically edited articles to include his theory. 79.177.33.134 (talk) 13:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Seems like something for the Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Yoenit (talk) 14:13, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Survey? What survey?

A banner is appearing with the text

Please take the 2011 Editor Survey by clicking here. Share your experiences and improve Misplaced Pages.
You can save the survey at any time and finish it later, but this may be the only time you will see this message.

Actually, I've seen the message several times—it has appeared at the top of various pages—but the linked words "clicking here" lead nowhere; the link simply adds a pound sign to the url of whatever page I'm on. What is this survey and where can it be found? Rivertorch (talk) 03:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Rivertorch, can you give us browser/OS data so we can check whether this is a banner bug? Thanks,--Eloquence* 06:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems to be a browser-specific issue, at least on my Mac. Running a recent Firefox build, it works fine; with Safari 3.0.4, not. (I should have checked this out before posting because I've seen this sort of thing before.) Rivertorch (talk) 06:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the report; I'll pass it on. If I'm not mistaken that's a pretty old version -- we may not be able to support it.--Eloquence* 00:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Works for me in Safari 4. Kaldari (talk) 01:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Survey issues

OK,
I took the survey today. It had some problems, some of which are fairly serious.

• The reasons I don't donate money to Wikimedia weren't on the list but it wouldn't let me move forward without selecting at least one. Personally I find other charities more important to donate to and I've gotten sick of the banner ads.
• The long, long, section on feeling discriminated against was, well, too long.
• Parts of the survey felt like an ad for donating money. Something like a Push-poll.
• While I am willing to take further surveys I was unwilling to share my e-mail address--something the survey form wouldn't allow (ok, this one is minor, but still)

Hobit (talk) 01:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

You might consider posting your thoughts at meta:Talk:Misplaced Pages Editors Survey 2011. It looks like a page that the survey-takers will be watching. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Dance your PhD

And now for something completely different. I thought people might like to see an entry 'The negotiation of contributions to public wikis' in the 2010 Dance your PhD contest, just search for 'wiki'. In fact the Chemistry video 'Selection of a DNA aptamer for homocysteine using SELEX' was the overall winner. Dmcq (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok... What is this post have to do with Misplaced Pages? This seem like plain advertising. Should I close it? --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 21:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Calling that page spam or advertisement is ridiculous, the only ads you'll see if you go there or click on the full explanation at are for the American Association for the Advancement of Science saying they sponsored the contest and the hosting site for the videos in the heading. What it has to do with wikipedia is it was a dance showing how interactions on a wiki are done as interpreted by a person doing a PhD on the subject. What makes you say it looks like an advertisement or spam? Dmcq (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

But why are you advertising the link here? IT certainly looks like spam to drive up visitors. --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 01:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I put the link here because I thought people here might be interested in in the concept of a researcher interpreting wiki conversations in dance. This is the miscellaneous village pump page is it not? Where would a person note someone doing something strange like this in relation to our interactions or do you think such things should not be brought to any notice at all? Dmcq (talk) 01:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Outdated video

Isn't this video outdated?

File:Wikipedia_video_tutorial-2-Reliability-en.ogv

Its showing the old interface. --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 00:25, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Like everything else here, someone has to have the time, ability, and inclination to update it. It's a pretty minor point anyway, there is only about 2 seconds of video that is actually outdated, and if you hover over the "watch" star a popup will tell you what it is. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

That's assuming, newbys know the star = watch --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 02:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

As I just said, if you hover a cursor over it will tell you what it is. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Sound clips

Unless I'm remembering this incorrectly, pages such as "Cheetah" had a link which would play the cry of the cheetah. Is it possible I could see the code for it? Abce2 (talk) 17:22, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Take a look at Template:Listen. --RL0919 (talk) 17:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Frustration with unregistered editor

An unregistered editor with few edits has made a change to each of the nuclear power plant articles in the US, which is his right. Furthermore, he has made it in favor of "no nukes" which is also his right. Okay to have a pov.

However, the material is poorly integrated with the former material and would seem non-WP:TOPIC to a npov reader. Because of the fairly large amount of work involved, he is not interested in discussing a way of integrating it and dismisses/intervenes with discussions about improvement. I cannot change all of these poorly attended articles myself. More importantly, I cannot change them at all without his consent. It is easier for him to rv my change than to help integrate it. And why should he? He also has a few registered user cronies who are probably not that pov, but he intervenes anytime I try to discuss it with them.

For example, his changes could be part of a "homeland security" set of articles. but he refuses to discuss this because a) it would require changing 60 articles or so in detail, and b) it might dilute his "no nukes" stance.

Not sure how to proceed here. To abandon the articles seems to presage a time when we may all be overwhelmed by "Barbarians at the Gate" which will probably happen someday. I was hoping later rather than sooner!  :) Student7 (talk) 20:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide more specific information? Looking at a sample, consensus at Talk:Turkey Point Nuclear Generating Station seems to be against including the surrounding population figures, but the editor who added it has also made numerous good, neutral edits to related articles, e.g., . In any case, having a POV is very different from pushing it on an article, which is definitely not allowed. Can you provide specific examples of the latter? Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 22:25, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I can shed light. I posted the material to which Student7 objects. (He refers to me as "an unregistered editor" -- I have no idea what this means, and perhaps other editors can shed light on this.) The information on population surrounding nuclear power plants is well-sourced, and relevant: Nuclear power plants have evacuation zones and emergency plans; how many people live in those areas is relevant to any discussion about nuclear power plants and safety. The material is stated in as neutral a fashion as possible: It has no pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear tone or content at all. User Student7 objects to the posting of census data on the population around the plants, claiming that posting this information is part of a "no nukes" argument. The user has no basis for this claim whatsoever. I have no view on nuclear power; I do not oppose it nor support it. I have no POV on nuclear power, and certainly have not pushed any view. His stated view, opposing this census information on population, has not gained a consensus on the talk page, yet he continues to remove the information wholesale. I and others have asked him not to delete the information, but to discuss it on the talk page. In this process he has become increasingly hostile, or as he describes it, "frustrated," reverting with snide comments and posting long political diatribes asking why we don't post similar population in the area around rubber plants (?) or GE or Apple, or even post the same information about people who live near Governor Dean (???). He has stated repeatedly his political POV that nuclear power is safe, that posting information about population about the plant must be an attempt to describe nuclear power as not safe, and that therefore this information must be removed. (Similarly he's engaged in edit wars to try to stifle any mention of which nuclear power plants in the U.S. have the same design as the troubled Fukushima Dai-ichi plant in Japan. His reasoning is that the design didn't cause the problems -- the earthquake and tsunami did. That's a reasonable point of view, but his fear of mentioning the connection, presuming that stating the connection itself is a "no nukes" POV statement, is unreasonable. There's no reason to be so afraid of facts, and moreover Misplaced Pages is not the place for him to be pushing a political argument.) He asks repeatedly for the relevance of the population figures, and as I and other users continue to point out: Nuclear power plants have evacuation zones; it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask, how many people live near the plants; the new 2010 census data in the news article cited give an authoritative answer for that population in the area around every nuclear power plant. Yet this user cannot see the posting of this information as anything other than a "no nukes" stance, as he puts it. It's not clear why he insists on this view. So count me as frustrated as well. I've asked him repeatedly, if he objects to the census data on population, please discuss it on the talk page, and stop removing the information wholesale. He is an experienced editor, but seems to be losing his cool on this one. His comments increasingly disparage other editors who disagree with him as "screwballs" or "Barbarians" or "cronies," or otherwise use hostile language. I'm glad he's aware enough of his frustration to come to the village pump to discuss it. It may be time for him to back away from the horse slowly.Extremely hot (talk) 02:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I would be willing to act as an informal mediator on this if both parties are agreeable. It looks like there's some history here, and I would like to give the discussion a chance for a fresh start. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 03:03, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

That's certainly welcome, though I have no idea how that would work. If I post census figures, which are neutral, and the editor perceives them as a "no nukes" statement, I'm not sure how to handle that. As you noted, I also posted "seismic risk" figures, which the editor did not perceive as a "no nukes" statement, so he left them alone. Neither the population figures nor the seismic risk figures are pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear; they just are useful, relevant facts; people on either side of the nuclear debate may use them to support their position if they choose. There seems to be some sort of political lens: If he perceives a fact as agreeing with him, then it's a neutral fact, but if he perceives it as disagreeing with him, then the editor is accused of COATRACK, NPOV and a host of sins. I'm not sure how mediation can help in that case; it seems more like one where the editor needs to thicken his skin, not act from a political point of view, and let the talk page process work.Extremely hot (talk) 03:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Mediation will be under User talk:Feezo#Offer of mediation. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 21:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought someone might be interested, because I am

Does anyone know, has a block of /16 (650000) IPs ever happened before? Take a look at this if you don't believe: block at hr. Regards, --Biblbroks (talk) 21:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

those get handed out regularly. ΔT 22:04, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Our first recorded /16 block was back in January of 2005 . ΔT 22:10, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

PS I just ran a database query and we have 2,364 recorded cases where a /16 has been blocked. ΔT 22:12, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

You mean just on en? I suppose you have to have some extra privileges to find out this info on any wikipedia. And larger than /16 hasn't happened? --Biblbroks (talk) 22:16, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I do have some extra access that normal users do not have. I just ran a query on hr.wiki and there are 47 logged blocks on /16 addresses. the oldest being: which was April 2006. ΔT 01:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

/16 is the max permitted by MediaWiki. You can query the database using the API, but there's a limit on the number of entries that will be returned. (500, or 5000 for bots and sysops.) .5% of the last 5000 blocks were /16 range blocks. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 22:59, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that is at least part of the reason why we have seen a steady decline in edits over the last few years. Blocking large groups like this is no doubt due to vandalism, and a reduction in vandalism is also a reason for the reduction in edits, but I suspect that there were a lot of good and meaningful edits being performed as well as vandalism. --Kumioko (talk) 02:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

By the way, you're off on an order of magnitude there. A /16 is ${\displaystyle 2^{32-16}=2^{16}=65,536}$, not ${\displaystyle 650,000}$. -- Cobi 05:29, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

A few comments, if I may:

• An IP address is just that, an IP address. The amount of usage on an IP address depends on the ISP's assignment of it as well as the amount of people assigned to it. If only ISPs were more efficient and responsible in their handling/distrubution of IP addresses, but in reality they really aren't.
• An "open encyclopedia" is a double-edged sword. That is, if you allow anyone to edit it, then you consequently allow anyone to abuse it; this is especially true if such "open encyclopedia" also happens to be one of the most popular and most visited websites in the entire world. Given our current MediaWiki software and community/social norms, there is not much overlap in that.

–MuZemike 02:33, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Argument over Award

there seems to be an argument over an Award renaming proposal i entered Here

The proposal i brought up, is the template:Working Man's Barnstar should not have any gender parameters and be renamed to "Hard Worker" to give the Barnstar a clearer meaning and making it more general without over-personalizing the Barnstar. However, i see these poor reasons to why it should be kept and seem to neglect the purpose of the proposal. That and i find it Bias and almost sexist. It would be great if i had more input on it (oppose or support, i just want a good reasons)>Bread Ninja (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

That was your opinion. Others differed from you. There's lots of decisions on Misplaced Pages I've disagreed with, I see no problem with that. Misplaced Pages isn't a discussion forum for people to air their views and convince others, all that matters is improving the articles. And personally I do not see that ensuring we have to talk about ploughperson's lunch instead of ploughman's lunch is going to help improve the articles. Dmcq (talk) 08:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

it's the general idea that counts. For something being passed off as legit, should we really add a personal trait such as gender?Bread Ninja (talk) 08:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not follow, what do you mean by being passed off as legit? Legitimate in what sense or who is passing it off as such? As far as I'm aware they are simply given by one person to another and anyone can set up a barnstar. You seem to be trying to remove the facility to say man or woman in it and yet you actively identify yourself as female on Misplaced Pages. That seems a bit confused to me. Are you saying you want people to know you are a woman but you want them to then ignore the fact and refer to you in a gender neutral fashion? And you want to remove the facility for someone to refer to another person as a man or woman in an award when they have identified as such? I simply cannot go along with such silliness. Dmcq (talk) 09:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It's offensive because, the default is "working man", the phrase is commonly used with man and doesn't sound as good with woman or wikipedian, plus not that direct.

I'm saying we shouldn't pass of mediocore awards for legitimately is what i'm saying.Bread Ninja (talk) 09:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The default is "Wikipedian's" and you can always set up your own award and try and publicise it on that project. I still don't see what you mean by legitimate and I don't see the problem with Wikipedian's or Woman's compared to Man's, in what way are they not 'direct'? How would I know if one award is legitimate and another is not? Dmcq (talk) 09:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

You're missing the point. I'm not even sure you're trying to. Like I've stated before, The Working Man's Barnstar is based of a phrase mainly due to "man" the gender is m=man, w=woman, n=wikipedian according to the template page. The template is still titled "working man". Kind of like if hypothetically a barnstar was called "Man up" because it's a phrase, but to add neutrality, they adapted that phrase into "woman up" and "wikipedian up" but still doesn't have the same ring to as "Man up"

It's not that it isn't legitimate award, just that it's legitimate but doesn't follow the standards of other awards. It's one of the main general awards. As you can see in WP:BARNSTAR it's write under the original and editor. Yet it doesn't go up to the same standard as the other awards. The idea is to replace the award basically with one more generally accepted. Why is this so difficult?Bread Ninja (talk) 09:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

'I'm not even sure you're trying to' Well that ends this for me. Dmcq (talk) 10:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Anyone else with a more neutral view? I'm exhausted of seeing these type of editors.Bread Ninja (talk) 10:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Bread Ninja, what is your motivation for bringing this concern to the Village pump? Raising the same issue repeatedly on different pages is a bit puzzling and is often considered disruptive. It isn't really beneficial to seek out various forums in hopes of getting the answer you want. A more appropriate choice would be to choose one forum for the consensus discussion and offer a clear, concise statement or proposal regarding your concern. The proposal was appropriately brought up to the Wikiproject members, resulting in discussion to reach consensus. I would recommend that you continue to discuss your concerns in that forum. On another note, for the sake of clarification, the nature of Barnstars is actually rather frivolous. The process lacks guidelines, along with qualifying measurements or standards. There is no real purpose for them, outside of simple encouragement or offering an editor some "warm fuzzies" or a pat on the back. I don't wish to minimize your concerns. That said, while the desire to be politically correct in real life is admirable for some individuals, it is not a universal goal or concern on Misplaced Pages. Honestly, there's just bigger fish to fry. Best regards, Cind.amuse 10:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Again, it's not just for political correctness....but overall, i think it depends on where it's appropriate and where it's not. Basically if it's challenged for something that could be a major problem, then the editors should accept that instead of waiting until another situation rises. The process of making them does lack guideline, but the general idea of giving awards is to reflect on their contributions. Though the awards are also meant to encourage editors aswell. I brought it up here in the hopes of seeing a more general, less bias opinion.Bread Ninja (talk) 10:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• You want a "neutral" response? Here it is: unless someone finds the name of this barnstar offensive, & explains persuasively why it must be changed, it's going to remain "The Working Man's Barnstar". And even then, its name may remain the same. (Look at the old AD/BC vs. CE/BCE debate, which generated lots of smoke but no light.) And as Bill Price pointed out in the original discussion, your insistence on a "neutral view" is offensive because the wording discounts the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you on this matter. I suggest you let this matter go & move on. I understand that there are hundreds of thousands of stubs waiting for someone to turn them into complete articles: find a few that interest you, & work on them. -- llywrch (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And by that you mean an opinion that agrees with your own? You say that you want any opinion, but anytime someone disagrees with you (here or at the other discussion), you just discount their opinions by asserting that they're biased or being "unreasonable". Mr.Z-man 16:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Not exactly, not that i'm saying the comments on here are bias. but i'm referring the ones in the discussion at WP:AWARD. And i'm asking an opinion based on both sides, not just one. And i do find the barnstar offensive. I've said so time again. What i'm asking is something less bias is all. Which you cannot deny, the reasons given there aren't fully thought up to why it should be kept.Bread Ninja (talk) 18:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

So when you said "Anyone else with a more neutral view? I'm exhausted of seeing these type of editors." when Dmcq disagreed, what or who were you referring to? I'm sorry, but if you want to actually get consensus, you have to actually accept that people might have a different opinion than yours, not assert that your own opinion is inarguable fact and forum shop until you get people who agree. Mr.Z-man 19:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

it's not the opinion, but the reason to push that opinion forward. I'm tired of seeing people use half-baked reasons. Let's not act like Dmcq was a saint in this discussion either. I asked for readers with a more neutral "view". I do find it heavily unreasonable if one editor declines because in his mind alone, he thinks that "Hard Worker" means "Not very bright" despite knowing the fact that he knows not everyone will see it that way ,nor does the implication actually exist. Or maybe it should be kept because "Working man" is a "time-honored phrase" neglecting Working Woman and Working Wikipedian (the adapted names that don't give off the same catch as the original phrase).Bread Ninja (talk) 19:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This is really what we have to argue about? Why don't we try to spend the time arguing over this on improving articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.29.68 (talk) 20:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Bread Ninja, at this point it does not look like there is any consensus to change the award. Here are some things you can do so that you don't get offended by it. 1. You can create your own gender neutral award and try to get it used instead of this one. 2. If someone gives you one of these awards you can refuse it and let the presenter know you don't like it. 3. ignore the barnstars and work on articles. GB fan (talk) 20:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

i'm already doing number 1. number 2 is highly unlikely now. they know it offends me. and i have been working on articles. still offends me an award meant more for males exist out there.Bread Ninja (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't be bothered with such minute details. For goodness sake, its just a name of an award!!! If you want, just set up a redirect called the Template:The Working Barnstar. These "political correctness" is just a dumb waste of time!

--

Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 21:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC) It's the principle....plus it is offensive. When you use political correctness, you say it's done fort he sake of that. Which is not.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Who the **** cares! Its just a fricking name! Get on with this. Ok suppose you're right what do you want done? Rename? Just for the sake of closing this arguement, let's rename it! If not it's gonna go on forever, or at least till the world ends in 2012. --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 21:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not just a simple "rename" it's to remove "gender" overall. it's just not appropriate in wikipedia. And seriously? Why can't i just find one person on here who actually contribute....Why post on here? You say this is a waste of time, so why do you even make a mess to this discussion?Bread Ninja (talk) 21:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Its because a. its useless, b. Unless we refer to everone as "they", s/he, or the genderless Wikipedian, it doesn't make any sense. For example, the dog is his or hers? S/he is twenty one years old. --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 22:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you read the entire discussion? Do you know what we are talking about? It's an award given in 1st-person. The gender will be even useless to put in, but still offensive. How come i'm seen as the uncivil jerk, when people are doing just the same (potentially worst)Bread Ninja (talk) 22:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the only "gender" is used in the naming of the award. The rest of the message is up to you! So what should we call the award? The Working Genderless being award? --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 22:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Again, i ask, if you even looked at the discussion...i proposed "The Hard Worker's Barnstar". The title does significant enough.Bread Ninja (talk) 22:29, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

How's that? I've changed the style of the neutral gender option and added a new "f" (female) switch. WIth everybody's agreement, perhaps we can move the page? But this may break links used by other Misplaced Pages pages --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 22:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I apologize if you have already answered this somewhere else, what do you want to happen? Simply a rename of the current template to "The Hard Worker's Barnstar" or do you want more, such as a fundamental change to the template to remove all possibility of using gender in the award? GB fan (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

As an effort to pacify this discussion, I have added two more options and moving the "Working Wikipedian's" to the "wiki" option and making the "Hard Worker's" option the default (n). This is done so that all sides are happy. All options are still there (for those who want those) but for Bread Ninja's sake, the "default" option is changed --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 22:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

P.S. It's not me who want the changing. It's User:Bread Ninja --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 22:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC) (edit conflict)  Done Moved to requested name... Hopefully no further rebuttals/reprisals by others. Redirect of old name in effect --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 23:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

No, i wanted to redirect the entire template into a simpler one. For those who do want it, will have to put it in Manually. I highly doubt this will hurt people. It's still leaning towards man, because the given phrase was originally "working man" and adapted to "working woman". Like i said before with the example of "Man up".Bread Ninja (talk) 23:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This is done for legacy purpose to preserve all other older perimeters --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 23:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean Legacy Purposes? We could just add a note saying that it originally had aparameters for a different name.Bread Ninja (talk) 23:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

See legacy system. This is done so that those still wanting to use the old perimeters could still do so. Actually this is done to pacify both sides of the arguements, those who want the "gender" and those who doesn't. --Tyw7  (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 23:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not really a guideline nor a policy nor an essay. I don't know if we should base it on that. But lets say for example, that i would agree with that idea, the title for both male and female have to be equivalent (meaning it would have to make up it's own phrase that didn't originate from a specific gender). The problem i have with the gender the most is that it originated from a phrase used for "man", the phrase adapted to "woman" and "Misplaced Pages" (which doesn't have the same catch as the male version). Which is why i proposed something more "universal" instead of "optional". That and the barnstar itself really complicates things. More than it should. Compared to the rest, the very Barnstar itself contradicts the others. Unless there were 2 or 3 more that had gender (which i don't see in WP:BARNSTAR)Bread Ninja (talk) 23:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Question about an image

Some time ago, I uploaded this image that I believed was a portrait of Kentucky Congressman Alney McLean and added it to his article. Later, someone removed the image, saying it was not of Alney McLean, but Illinois Congressman John McLean. The removing editor cited The Biographical Directory of the United States Congress, which does indeed show a hazier version of this image as John McLean. I did not have time to do much research at the time the image was removed, but I just found the same image in historian Otto Rothert's History of Muhlenberg County, Kentucky, where it is labelled as Alney McLean, circa 1820 (p. 71). I wasn't sure whether to list the issue at the John McLean talk page, the Alney McLean talk page, the questioning editor's talk page, or the image's talk page (which is on Commons), so I'm listing it here! Please advise as to how I should proceed. Acdixon 14:29, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Since the image is at Wikimedia Commons rather than Misplaced Pages, how about we have the discussion at Alney's article with a note left at John's article and anywhere else the image is used? -Rrius (talk) 17:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Baidu make copyright violation to Misplaced Pages in three languages

The Chinese encyclopedia Baidu Baike which have 3 millions and more articles, however about 1600+ articles is copy from Misplaced Pages, and 28 of them is copied from English Misplaced Pages. See the list at zh:WP:BD for details. You are invited to sign the letter to Baidu on zh:WP:VPM#聯署簽名 by putting your signature there. A press release will also be sent out with the name of Chinese Misplaced Pages community. Them will be send out within a few weeks. More discussion may be found at foundation-l --HW (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the comment at User talk:Biblbroks which is i believe regarding me addressing the problem at WP:AE in my response to a request given there

I think it is best for me, and i hope others also, if i express my apology for violating the WP:1RR one revert per week parole to which all editors/editresses of the article Kosovo are subject to. So i apologize for that. Wish you all the best, --biblbroks (talk) 07:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

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