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Demi is not short for Demetria

I changed Demetria to Demi. Demi stated on twitter "Demetria is a beautiful name. my full name though is actually just Demi" http://twitter.com/mrskutcher/status/2243267925—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.31.166.159 (talk • contribs)

You are right. I have changed the couple of places that you missed. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 14:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Are we sure that that's her real Twitter? Or that she doesn't mean she's legally shortened her name to "Demi"? I ask because People Magazine states that "Demi Moore got her real name, Demetria, from a beauty product her mother saw in a magazine". A writer here cited an interview in McCall's as stating the same thing. All Hallow's (talk) 14:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I am positive. The account has been verified by the Twitter staff. All those links mentions Demetria as a "fun fact", and there's not actually a quote saying that she has said it. In that Twitter response I think she makes it quite clear that Demetria has never been her name, or she would have made a mention of it. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 19:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, if you read the question here, it's even more obvious that she would have worded her response differently if she was indeed born with the name. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 19:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. All Hallow's (talk) 07:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

However, Moore's entry on IMDB states that her real first name is Demetria, in Misplaced Pages's list of stage names her given name is listed as Demetria, the Misplaced Pages article on Redondo Beach states that she attended school there for one year under her real name, Demetria Guynes, and there are countless references online that quote Demetria as her first name. I've made changes (but do not feel qualified to make the necessary change to the pronunciation entry).

By all means revert my changes if there is good proof that her birth name is NOT Demetria (something other than a Tweet). AncientBrit (talk) 02:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The WP:BURDEN is on you and IMDB is not a reliable source. Therefore, I have reverted you. Nymf _hideliho! 06:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

But Twitter is a reliable source? Really? Besides, her name was legally changed to "Demi Guynes Kutcher". Just because Demetria isn't currently her name doesn't mean it never was. 24.214.230.66 (talk) 15:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Twitter in this instance is not the source, it is merely the vehicle. The source is Moore herself (and the Twitter account has been verified as being her personally). It is Moore herself that has said that Demetria has never been her name. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 18:14, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, the above poster is wrong, Demi did not say that "Demetria has never been my name". Her tweet said "my full name is Demi" NOT "Demetria has never been my name". Her birth name was Demetria. If she changed her name legally to Demi, it does not mean that Demetria was never her name - it was. Just as Cher legally changed her name to "Cher" - she was born Cherilyn Sarkisian. Why state that Demi said that "Demetria has never been my name" - she did not - her Twitter tweet does not say that. Please get your facts straight. 68.124.177.160 (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The biggest problem is that things are self perpetuating on the internet. It only takes one unreferenced and unsupported entry on IMDB and the error will be copied all over the place in a very short space of time. Unless a very good reference to the contrary can be provided we must stay with the definitive comment from Moore herself and continue to remove any entries of Demetria. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 19:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I notice Biography.com is still calling her Demetria. I also find it strange she was listed as Demetria for her entire career until this supposed Tweet came about. Just sayin'. Trista 24.176.191.234 (talk) 22:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The above is right. She has always been listed Demetria everywhere. That was even in the 90s when internet was not so big. I have read several magazines that put her real name as Demetria. 82.141.127.50 (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, so why did someone change her birth name to "Demi"? This is inaccurate, and should not have been changed in the article. 68.124.177.160 (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

If we're taking a self-published tweet over literally hundreds of magazines, news articles, etc. then Misplaced Pages has officially lost it... To quote a user below: "I can show where she verified that her birth name IS Demetria in 1996. I have included links to two People magazine articles below, one is from 1996 which DIRECTLY QUOTES Demi saying that her birth name is Demetria, and why her mother named her that." Mythpage88 (talk) 01:45, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I saw that People, which is certainly a reliable source, gives Demetria, but I couldn't find her being actually quoted herself giving that name. And we do have to give a certain credence to someone making a claim about her own name. It's not end-all and be-all, but we have to consider it. In any event, further down the page is further discussion on this and on the compromise version now on the page. Sometimes when reasonable disagreement cannot be bridge, compromise is the only solution. It beats edit-warring. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

All well and good, except that Demi Moore in her youth lived for some time in Perryopolis, Pennsylvania, where she attended Frazier High School - and is listed in the records there as Demetria Guynes. I don't know if someone else handles her twitter account and accidentally tweeted misinformation, or if Demi would rather just forget her past, but she was named "Demetria Gene Guynes". Have fun changing history here at Misplaced Pages, it looks like you've got a good chance of doing so... 68.122.10.149 (talk) 22:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

And we'll just take your word for that? Do you have any sort of proof? Nymf _hideliho! 22:27, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you look into it further yourself, instead of holding so stubbornly to your unproven stance...? Don't you want to know the truth? 68.122.10.149 (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN. Nymf _hideliho! 22:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

We don't contradict a living subject. If she came to this talk page and verified herself with OTRS, we would correct the article. Since there is reasonable doubt about all the sources, we simply don't bring it up at all. When in doubt, leave it out. Yworo (talk) 03:32, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

We're not here to write press-release puff pieces. There is no doubt whatsoever that Time Inc.'s People magazine, the Encyclopedia Britannica and other high-WP:RS sources have reported her name is Demetria. The standard of Misplaced Pages is verifiability. It is absolutely verifiable that these sources have reported this, which is exactly what the article says. We have no right to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that reliable, verifiable, credible, pertinent information doesn't exist. Stalinist-Russia erasure of history is absolutely improper. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

When it comes to biographies of living people, different priorities prevail. the essence of BLP is to cause no harm. If indeed usually reliable publications got it wrong, then we are perpetuating the harm caused. We cannot pit the subject's word against multiple sources that do not base their facts directly on her words. It ads nothing to the article and only confuses. If we cannot state a person's religion without a statement of self-identification, how could we state a person's birth name which contradicts their current verified statements. It doen't matter if Demi typed the tweets herself, if she didn't they were typed by her direct agent. The writers of past articles were not her agents. Now, if she had stated herself in the past that her names was Demetria and was now stating something different, that would be both notable and interesting. Pitting the subject against possibly wrong sources is not. Yworo (talk) 05:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

" The standard of Misplaced Pages is verifiability". Wrong. The standard of Misplaced Pages is encyclopaedic content. As for comparisons with 'Stalinist-Russia', I suggest you get a sense of perspective. Or fuck off elsewhere. Do you really think your infantile concerns over this bit of trivia are comparable to the sufferings of millions in the Gulag? Truly moronic... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Emilio Estevez & Brat Pack

Why is there no mention in this article of her significant relationship with Emilio Estevez? Demi was a big part of his life and the Brat Pack scene, yet none of that is included in this article of her life. Needs to be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.59.228 (talk) 07:40, 24 March 2009‎ (UTC)

UPDATE REQUIRED

she divorced apparently ... someone update this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.78.198 (talk) 15:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Birth name

• - Birth name is Demetria Gene Guynes

People magazine's biography on Demi states her real name is Demetria Guynes. http://www.people.com/people/demi_moore/biography/0,,20006358_10,00.html
Many other sites also list her name as Demetria Gene Guynes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.124.185.83 (talk) 08:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

See "Talk:Demi Moore#Demi is not short for Demetria". Nymf _hideliho! 12:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Right, the consensus was that her real name is Demetria. 68.124.177.160 (talk) 16:00, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

No. Nymf _hideliho! 16:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Her name is well known, it is in literally thousands of sites on the internet, it was said to be Demetria by her mother in interviews and by Demi herself in early interviews. I have a copy of People magazine from years ago that gives her name as Demetria. Because Demi now wants to say she is "Demi" does not mean it is true, anymore than an actress who claim to be younger than she is, anymore than if Miley Cyrus says she was born Miley (she was born Destiny Hope Cyrus and legally changed her name - that does not mean it wasn't her birth name) Boooo to wikipedia for allowing a handful of stubborn people to keep changing this well known and factually correct information to something inaccurate. I won't change it again, the wrong information can stay there making Misplaced Pages look unreliable, but it's really a shame that a few uninformed people insist on changing Demi's Moore's birth name to something it definitely is not. 68.124.177.160 (talk) 16:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Me and several others have scoured the Internet, and have not been able to pull up a single reference where she states that her name is Demetria. We do, however, have one where she states that her name has never been Demetria. Until you can find one that trumps that one, the article should not be changed. Nymf _hideliho! 16:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Faulty logic. I just gave an example above - if an actress claims to be younger than she is (which many do) it is not proof that she is - we use source documents for that. One example of this is in the Nicki Minaj article here on Misplaced Pages - she gives her age as 26 in an interview, yet the police report has a different birth date, making her 28. The police report was taken as credible evidence, as they most likely required evidence and took her date of birth from her driver's license. I don't have the time or inclination to research Demi's birth certificate, school records, etc., I am not that interested, but don't you think it is is very odd that literally thousands of sources state that her birth name is Demetria and over the years none of them have ever printed a retraction or objection from Demi? Where do you think that info came from? Misplaced Pages editors have an obligation to have factual information in articles, you are not upholding that obligation. How ridiculous that Misplaced Pages is the only place that says her birth name is "Demi" not "Demetria" - it really makes this site unreliable. 68.124.177.160 (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

And to clarify, her twitter tweet does NOT say "My name has never been Demetria" as you claim above. It says "my full name is Demi" - this does not indicate her birth name was not Demetria (it was). If you are going to quote her, at least get the quote right. 68.124.177.160 (talk) 17:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You obviously haven't read tweet that she replied to. Nymf _hideliho! 18:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Nymf, of course I read Demi's tweet. The simple fact is that she does NOT say her name has never been Demetria. Here is the twitter link (copied from above post): http://twitter.com/#!/mrskutcher/status/2243267925 and quote of the full tweet: "Demi Moore !@GirlWithoutFear Demetria is a beautiful name. my full name though is actually just Demi!" - so where in this tweet does she say that her name HAS NEVER BEEN DEMI ? It doesn't. If her full name is now Demi, this does not mean her birth name was not Demetria. Just like Miley Cyrus can truthfully say "my real name is Miley" - it is, because she had it legally changed to Miley Ray Cyrus. This does not change the fact that Miley she was born Destiny Hope Cyrus. Demi Moore was born and christianed Demetria Gene Guynes. You cannot choose to singlehandedly change Demi Moore's birth name without any proof - when literally thousands of Magazine articles and online sources state her birth name was Demetria. I am correcting the article, do not change it again. 68.124.176.196 (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to the tweet which she replied to. It is deleted now, but it went something along the lines of "My name is Demetria too," and in return Demi Moore replied that her full name is just Demi. Nymf _hideliho! 20:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) Twitter is not a WP:RS. The threashold for inclusion is WP:V, not truth. The name should say what the reliable sources say, magazines, newspapers, legal documents, etc. Not Twitter. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 20:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I've added three references for the name "Demetria". - Burpelson AFB ✈ 20:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Considering that her Twitter is verified, it is reliable. Find some legal documents, rather than these news articles which never quotes her, and then we'll see. Nymf _hideliho! 20:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

And here we have it. Quoting: "Demi is the name I was born with!". Nymf _hideliho! 20:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Another tweet here. Nymf _hideliho! 20:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

And yet another one here. Nymf _hideliho! 20:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

• - I have removed it - it was only added today and we have had an article for years - it's not breaking news is it? and is hotly disputed - please don't replace it without consensus support. Thanks - Youreallycan (talk) 22:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Other than her recent Twitter tweet, Can you show ANYWHERE else at any time where Demi claimed her birth name was not Demetria? I can show where she verified that her birth name IS Demetria in 1996. I have included links to two People magazine articles below, one is from 1996 which DIRECTLY QUOTES Demi saying that her birth name is Demetria, and why her mother named her that. There are other interviews that quote her on her name, I will certainly research them as well if you insist on this ridiculous and inaccurate change to her birth name, not because I particularly care about Demi Moore's birth name; but I do care about Misplaced Pages having CORRECT, FACTUAL information so it can continue to be seen as a CREDIBLE and RELIABLE source of information. 68.125.68.38 (talk) 23:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Birth Name: Demetria - Credible Sources and References

Demi Moore was indeed born Demetria Gene Guynes. Misplaced Pages has had this article on Demi Moore since 2003. Her name was always Demetria, until changed recently (without consensus). A more reliable source than twitter is People magazine - here is their bio on Demi Moore: http://www.people.com/people/demi_moore/biography which states her real name is Demetria Guynes. Credible Source and Reference: Here is a People Magazine interview with Demi from 1996 that gives family background and includes a quote from her on how she got her name: http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20141624,00.html - Reference: June 24, 1996 Vol. 45 No. 25 "Eye of the Tiger" By Gregory Cerio - "Striptease's Demi Moore Knows What It Took to Get to the Top. Her Scarlet Letter Is 'A' for Ambition". The article states (QUOTE): "Moore was born Demetria Guynes in Roswell, N.Mex., and grew up as the older child, (half brother Morgan is now 28 and a film technician), of Danny Guynes, a newspaper ad salesman, and his wife, Virginia. (Her mother, Moore has said, got the name Demetria from a beauty product she saw in a magazine.)" People magazine directly quotes Demi as saying this. She never refuted this information, and indeed repeated it in other interviews. There are numerous interviews with her with many magazines and newspapers over the years all stating her born name as Demetria; if she had ever disputed her name, they would have printed a retraction. Here is another People article that gives her name as Demetria in 1998: http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20125106,00.html "Scoop - Update Monday May 04, 1998 01:00 AM EDT" So, who knows why she all of a sudden decided to say on twitter that it isn't her birth name? But many celebrities claim things that are not true: their name, age, date of birth etc. Ok, Misplaced Pages editors, let's not be silly about this, ok? She was born Demetria Guynes. This has been undisputed information for over 20 years. Demi is quoted by many sources as saying her birth name was Demetria. I have quoted her bio and an article from 1996. I'll take People magazine over Twitter as a source any day. 68.125.68.38 (talk) 23:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Demi is quoted by many sources as saying her birth name was Demetria. ... I am not seeing that, where has she said that? Youreallycan (talk) 23:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I've edited what I believe is an accurate compromise that addresses both issues. High-RS cites such as Time Inc.'s People magazine and the venerable news syndicate Reuters cannot be summarily ignored. And a tweet by a celebrity has to be given due weight and no more. As now stands, the very first cite is Moore's tweet stating that Demi is her full name. The second sentence now says, "Some sources give her birth name as....", with four RS sources footnoted. That is 100 percent accurate, and it balances both sides' concerns without summarily ignoring one. Can everyone live with it as now written? --Tenebrae (talk) 23:59, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Not really - it looks like it has been an article from the People that have been repeatedly claiming and propagating this for a decade - I removed a couple of sources as not having the detail in it and the others , I don't think you had accessed? and then what I had left was a disputed birth name that did not belong in the lede - and I moved it to the early life section where it imo sits much better. Also as it appears to have only just been added - I would prefer you discuss it more here as it is clearly hotly disputed. Youreallycan (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It really isn't "hotly disputed". A recent tweet By Ms. Moore caused a single editor here to change her name. If we take everything "tweeted" as fact, soon all the articles will have false information, as this one now does. Kudos to User:Tenebrae for his really good edits and effort to show both sides; unfortunately User:Youreallycan seems to have a personal stake in this, as shown by his/her continued changes to my section title and now he/she has incorrectly added a statement that Ms. Moore denies validity of the People magazine article; she has never in fact done this. It's a waste of my time to debate this any further as unfortunately User:Youreallycan will continue to re-write the article as he/she chooses. Thanks for your good faith efforts User:Tenebrae, sadly, it was for naught. 68.125.160.90 (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

And to User:Youreallycan - Stop changing my edit title on this talk page just because you don't like it or agree with it. Talk pages are for comments discussing the factual matters of an article, as mine does, and my edit title in the talk page ACCURATELY describes the section: Demi Moore's birth name IS Demetria Guynes and I AM providing Credible Sources and References. It isn't your place to change anyone's edits on a talk page. This harassing behavior from you needs to stop. 68.125.160.90 (talk) 00:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I would ask, collegially, that Youreallycan discuss rather than edit-war.

• Removing two print citations because they are not online is improper; are you saying Misplaced Pages can never cite print sources?
• The Independent did mention the alternate name, spelling it "Demitria".
• The snarky, non-neutral WP:TONE taken in regards to People magazine — a reputable Time Inc. publication with scores of staff and fact-checkers — shows a slanted and a bias, both of which are improper per WP:NPOV.
• Moore's tweet is the very first footnote, giving it primacy without undue weight.
• And issues of birth name go in the lead, per consistency across the vast bulk of Misplaced Pages.

At least one other editor disagrees with Youreallycan's unilateral, summary ownership. Compromises can be tweaked, obviously, but to overhaul it in slanted way while removing print citations is not right. Let's discuss this rather than call in mediation or an admin over the OWN issue. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Which print sources have you accessed? Youreallycan (talk) 01:16, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I would like to go on record as saying that I think that User:Tenebrae made excellent edits to the article on Demi Moore that were both comprehensive and impartial, and that they should not have been removed. I would suggest that the edits be reinstated. I have not edited the article since this debate began, but I would really like to see an accurate page on Ms. Moore, and think those edits would accomplish that. Thank you. 68.125.160.90 (talk) 01:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I poked around ancestry.com a bit. I don't see any info on Demi's birth record, but her 1987 marriage record to Bruce Willis says "Demi". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:28, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Who needs People Magazine when we have many sources over a 20 year period confirming that her birth name was Demetria? If she is really claiming that wasn't her birth name, then her publicists would have had many opportunities over the decades to set the record straight.

• Encyclopædia Britannica Almanac 2009
• The New York Times
• Action/spectacle cinema: a sight and sound reader
• Celebrity in the 21st Century: A Reference Handbook
• James Ulmer's Hollywood Hot List: The Complete Guide to Star Ranking
• The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2009
• A dictionary of first names
• Celebrities and Other Famous People Who Changed Their Name: Demi Moore to Gene Simmons
• The Cult of Celebrity: What Our Fascination with the Stars Reveals About Us
• You Couldn't Ignore Me If You Tried: The Brat Pack, John Hughes, and Their Impact on a Generation
• Arnold Schwarzenegger: a biography
• Disney Voice Actors: A Biographical Dictionary
• Hollywood divas: the good, the bad, and the fabulous
• Tom Cruise: All the World's a Stage
• The Biography Channel Cullen Let's discuss it 05:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Where are those sources getting their information? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Really? Encyclopedia Britannica' isn't a reliable source? There's no requirement we post a link to a birth certificate for every Misplaced Pages biography.

Also: My own marriage certificate does not have my birth name on it. I didn't change my name; I just used my everyday name, which is the shortened form of my ethnic first name. That point really isn't relevant. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

BLP's require a higher standard than just finding something. EB is not a reliable source for a fact that can't be verified directly, i.e. by a birth certificate. Maybe someone should look for her birth announcement in a local newspaper at the time. That would be at least as reliable as some external source that just copied it from somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:56, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not require birth certificates under WP:BLP. C'mon.--Tenebrae (talk) 14:23, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages requires valid sourcing, and some external source's unattributed guess does not qualify. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The current lede wording seems like a good compromise. With the number of sources saying her birth name was Demetria or Demitria, it makes no sense to not mention it at all, but if Moore herself disputes it, then it seems fine to say that as well. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It's fine as is, with her own statement (along with other sources) as the primary, and the acknowledgment that some additonal sources have different info. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

So curious though that none of the online ancestry sites can throw up any New Mexico birth record for her either under Demi Guynes OR Demetria Guynes ... not even a D G Guynes. It does make one wonder if all of the proposed names are wrong! 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 14:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

More likely that NM is one of the states that doesn't make birth records available to sites such as ancestry.com. There's money to be made by holding onto that info. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I have just asked editor Fat&Happy if he would discuss with me rather than reverting because, as I said in my edit summary, I think 2 tweets is repetitive and undue weight, and I think these are legitimate and articulately stated concerns. -108.21.104.134 (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

So 2 tweets are undue, but you can still use 4 sources for the other claim? That's some rather odd reasoning. Nymf _hideliho! 19:28, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that seems an unnecessarily harsh way to speak with another editor. From what I've been reading, you (Nymf) were saying those cites weren't enough, and now you're saying they're too many? That seems like odd reasoning on your own part. In any case, many editors are all OK with what people are calling the compromise version, and I was hoping to speak with Fat&Happy about one specific thing in this version. -108.21.104.134 (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Nymf's response above was spot on. And I'm at a complete loss trying to understand how it is remotely possible to give "undue weight" to a person's multiple statements about what their own name is. In fact, IIRC there was a third message of roughly similar content mentioned above. If so, that should be cited also to remove any inference of undue weight being given to a single comment which might be claimed to be the result of a misunderstanding. Fat&Happy (talk) 19:54, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it's going to be impossible to get this article to a point where it's reliable and comprehensive - Nymf reverts anything that she doesn't like and doesn't allow anyone to edit it to present the materially clearly - best advice, just give up, lol. 68.125.68.185 (talk) 20:06, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Don't give up, young one! Misplaced Pages is based on consensus and discussion. When you stop talking, you stop contributing. -Achowat (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Achowat. That's a very considerate thing to say, and I appreciate your politeness. -108.21.104.134 (talk) 20:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

An attempted correction to the birth name

See this revision for an attempted correction of the birthname, which puts Moore's revisionistic tweet where it belongs, in a footnote. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Demi_Moore&oldid=463897821 I have no interest in getting in an edit war; the time has passed when I believed Misplaced Pages was capable of being saved from the entropic weight of cruft. --The Cunctator (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The living subjects statement is relevant as, relevent as celebrity reports that dispute it. Youreallycan (talk) 22:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Rob, virtually every interview and biography lists "Demetria" as her birth name. Notable Hollywood biographers list "Demetria" as her birth name. Why is it then, in her 30 year career, Moore has never once disputed it in print? Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You would have to ask HER that question. Meanwhile, if the allegedly "reliable" sources can't even decide whether it's "Demetria" or "Demitria"... what's wrong with this picture? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

How many sources use an alternative spelling? One? Two? How many spell it consistently? 50? 100? The only thing wrong with this picture is that 1) you are ignoring the secondary sources, and 2) you are interpreting a Twitter feed. Viriditas (talk) 10:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

In the absence of concrete evidence, such as a birth certificate, Demi's own statement trumps any so-called "reliable" sources, who typically parrot each other. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

New Mexico does not make birth certificate info public. Unless one of the so-called "reliable" sources can be independently confirmed to be correct, then they cannot be considered valid. If you can find a source where Demi herself explicitly states that Demetria is actually "the name she was born with", then you'll have something. Otherwise, no. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages interpretations of Twitter feeds do not take priority of 100 different sources listing Demi Moore's name as "Demetria". Further, we have secondary sources that specifically say "most" sources list her name as "Demetria". Viriditas (talk) 11:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

"Demi is the name I was born with" is unambiguous to anyone who speaks English natively. And unless we know where those "sources" got their own info, it can't be considered reliable. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

A Twitter feed is not "unambiguous", nor could it be given the context. I don't even think you know what "unambigious" means. If it was unambiguous, we would have, within the last three decades, at least one source that says, "I was not given the name Demetria at birth." For some strange reason, we don't have that refutation, and secondary sources have noted it: "Moore hasn’t yet disputed the story that her mother named her after seeing a magazine ad for a shampoo brand called Demetria." Yes, "Demi" was the name she was born with, but the question is whether her full name was "Demetria". You don't have very much experience with women, do you Bugs? :) Viriditas (talk) 12:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

" is the name I was born with" is unambiguous. It does not require interpretation. Unless there is a valid source that confirms her birth name is "Demetrias" or "Demitrias" or whatever, rather than merely speculating on it or parroting other alleged sourcesd, then her own word is the best evidence you have. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Time Inc. and other major publishers did research and reporting, had fact-checkers, had editors, and as pro forma with any professional journalistic organization confirmed its facts. They reported this name well before the Internet, giving her many years to request a correction/retraction. Please don't insult the entire journalistic profession by calling such organizations' reporting "speculation" or "allegations." Even a person's own claims on Twitter can be given only so much weight because people lie. Should we throw away all of Woodward and Bernstein because Nixon claimed "I am not a crook"?

In any case, the compromise version addresses all concerns. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The compromise version, in which it says "many", certainly seems sufficient. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

And by the way, believe me or not, but I interviewed Moore when A Few Good Men came out, and both she and the movie's press kit both lied and said she never did Piranha Parasite. By the way. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:35, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not seeing any evidence that she was in Piranha (1978 film). Feel free to present some, as I might have overlooked something. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Very funny. You knew very well I meant Parasite. Being a smart-ass isn't constructive. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I didn't know any such thing. I am not a historian of her career. Although it's becoming clearer why you might think " is the name I was born with" is somehow ambiguous. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ —Preceding undated comment added 17:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC).

In that interview, did you ask her what actual name she was "born with"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:41, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

See my comment immediately above. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Which one, in particular? You're not making any sense now. And if her birth name was "Demetria", then she was not "born with" the name "Demi", she was "born with" the name "Demetria". She says her birth name was "Demi", and you have offered no actual evidence to the contrary. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:26, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

One might likewise say to you, "Prove she's not lying, as actresses often do." But it doesn't matter: Numerous reliable-source outlets, including magazines published by Time Inc., as well as the Encyclopedia Britannica, have reported, fact-checked and had legal-department vetting, as such major organizations always do, that her birth name is Demetria. If you think an admin won't consider that sufficient sourcing, go ahead and call one.

In the meantime, numerous editors worked long and hard to reach a compromise wording that makes accurate statements and balances the different viewpoints. Unless you've got a direct line to God and Truth, your view has no more weight than those of other editors here who point to RS cites and reach a different conclusion than you. Unless you consider yourself infallible and above question, please have respect for other views besides your own.--Tenebrae (talk) 17:37, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

They can't have "fact-checked" her name unless they have access to her birth certificate - which they don't. And considering your bad-faith, vulgar comments directed at me, you're in no position to be lecturing anyone about their behavior. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

One can fact-check in a number of ways, including asking a subject's relatives. Your lack of knowledge about professional journalism makes it hard to have an intelligent conversation about the subject.

As to "vulgar," I believe you're misusing the word; you might want to look up the definition. As to bad faith, I disagree: You are speaking as if you and you alone know The Truth. I'm not sure how any human being here can claim that he or she is indisputably right and legions of journalists, editors and others are wrong.

Judging from the lack of response by the many other editors who have worked on this article, there's no consensus to change the compromise version. You and I talking in circles is accomplishing nothing. At this point, I suggest you call for an WP:RfC, since no one else is clamboring to change the wording. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

As long as we stay away from POV wordings such as this, I don't have the energy to further improve upon it. That's just why I am quiet, anyway. It doesn't mean that I generally agree with including "Demetria". Nymf _hideliho! 19:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I, and I'm sure others, appreciate your reasonable and civil stance. Others feel the lead should say Demetria unequivocally, and were not saying that, either. That's the nature of compromise; everyone gets something, no one gets everything. And thank goodness for that. It means Misplaced Pages works better than Congress.   :)  --Tenebrae (talk) 19:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

As I wrote on The Crunctator talk page: I understand your point, and I personally feel the long-form birth name is adequately cited. But Misplaced Pages works on consensus and compromise — just because I and a certain number of other editors believe it's adequately cited doesn't mean that a certain number of additional editors agree. The compromise wording, which is accurate and neutral as far as it goes, is the end result of much discussion by several editors in an effort to reach wording that addresses both sides' concerns. I'm not sure there's any alternative way to do it; certainly, edit-warring isn't an answer. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, how hard is it to spell Cunctator? The compromise wording is inaccurate and biased. But hey, appoint yourself consensus overlord and make reversions on behalf of people you disagree with to keep inaccurate and biased material on Misplaced Pages. Cheers. --The Cunctator (talk) 23:16, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

aboutself

Just passing through and thought I'd drop a link to WP:ABOUTSELF because it seems quite pertinent and I haven't seen anyone mention it. It states explicitly that Twitter can be used as a source in some cases—in my opinion, this one--Taylornate (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

That's good to know, and it's nice of you to offer a constructive link to a policy/guideline. No one in the discussion has questioned the validity of using her tweet, however, but simply how much weight to give it: complete, total, 100 percent weight, or weight balanced against a multitude of WP:RS sources.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

A newspaper from 1997 wrote that Moore said her name, Demetria, came from a beauty product. They seem to have got that in turn from McCall's in 1996: "She was born to a teenage mother, Virginia Harmon, in Roswell, NM, a poor, rural whistle-stop, and christened Demetria after a beauty product her mother had seen in a magazine." (OR: I can't find any evidence of a 1960s beauty product called "Demetria"). The earliest source I can find for Demetria as her name is from 1991 (a Google Books snippet), something called "Newsmakers 1991": "Full name, Demetria Gene Guynes Moore; born in Roswell, New Mexico, c. 1963; stepdaughter of Danny (a newspaper reporter) and daughter of Virginia (King) Guynes; married Freddy (some sources say Rick) Moore (a musician)." Fences&Windows 22:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

That McCalls article is worth looking for — nice digging to find the original source! The "Newsmakers" listing seems more iffy, as you sort of note. The "circa 1963" and "some say Rick" in that source indicate it was simply compiling information from outside sources and not verifying. But, yeah, McCalls — might be time to hit the library microfiche (do they still have those?), since there's still an awful lot in print that ain't on the 'net! --Tenebrae (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh this gets better and better; it opens up the possibility of a possible birth name of Demi/Demetria Harmon/King/Guynes or any combination thereof 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 00:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, the McCall's source seems very late to the party; I've seen relevant sources dated much earlier. Viriditas (talk) 07:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I am reminded of the anecdote where there's one child who wants a piece of pie all to himself, and another child who wants to share the piece. The parent makes them compromise by giving 3/4 of the piece to the first child and 1/4 of the piece to the second.

I'm also reminded of "compromises" by intelligent design advocates who say "well, yeah, intelligent design requires faith, but evolution requires faith too."

This issue is not really amenable to compromise. The "compromise" is literally accurate, but instead of giving a completely wrong impression it just gives a half-wrong impression. It's utterly insane that when a person tells us what their own name is, we should treat that on the same level as a secondary source. This is a case where we need to go by the primary source, not to "compromise" away BLP. If it violates the sourcing rules, then use WP:IAR; this is what it's there for. Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but primary sources can lie. That's why secondary sources are important. If we were to believe every actress about her age, they'd all be 29. Nixon denied Watergate. Clinton said he did not have sex with that woman. And sometimes a primary source simply doesn't know herself; how many of us have seen our birth certificates? Believing a primary source blindly, unquestioningly: That's not how journalism works and it certainly shouldn't be how an encyclopedia works — because it's not "the first draft of history," as journalism is called, but is the historical record, and so has a higher standard that journalism. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

It's possible for primary sources to lie, but it's also possible for secondary sources to lie (or rather, to just fail to fact-check properly). Your belief that there's a greater chance that the primary source is lying than that the secondary source is lying (or failed to fact-check) defies common sense and appears to be mainly based on unquestioning belief in Misplaced Pages's statements about why secondary sources should be preferred. Those statements are not gospel and shouldn't be treated as such; that's why we have IAR. Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm saying it as a journalist myself who has seen firsthand how stringent the fact-checking and editorial vetting process is at Time Inc. No responsible editor would take an actor's statement at face value (or a politician's or anyone else's, for that matter) without seeking secondary confirmation. That's Journalism 101. While I've never worked with Encyclopædia Britannica, it would seem to defy common sense, to me, to just assume that this encyclopedia, with its nearly 250-year reputation for accuracy, should not also be given substantial weight. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is the ONLY site that says "Demi Moore disputes her birth name is Demetria". IN fact, I don't believe she has disputed it. If you Google "Demi Moore", there are thousands of sites all saying "birth name is Demetria Gene Guynes" and not a single other site claiming that she disputes this fact, which has been reported for more than 25 years by many reputable publications. I don't know on what basis someone changed her Misplaced Pages article, but I really don't think it should stand as it is worded now, as it makes Misplaced Pages look downright unreliable. 68.122.12.99 (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

While I personally also believe that her birth name is Demetria or Demitria, according to WP:RS citations, the fact is that she has disputed this on her own Twitter page, at posts to which this article links.

The subject's own words can't be discounted. Neither can they be given undue weight. The current phrasing balances out the valid concerns of different editors. You or I may not agree, but we have to respect them, since neither we nor they have any special insight into Truth. All we can do is say, "These reliable sources say these things," and leave it to the reader to draw conclusions. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Much respect to you for sure, and I appreciate your attention to what is a fairly minor issue, but.... on the Nicki Minaj talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nicki_Minaj#Age - an editor (who has made contributions since early 2006) states: "Stating your age is not a WP:RS" and they then use a source that puts her age at 28, not 26 as she herself has stated. So, when do we take their word for it, and when do we not? Just curious. I'd like to see consistency. I also think it's giving Demi's Twitter "tweet" undue weight - many celebrities use publicists or assistants to tweet for them (as Ashton Kutcher has said he will be doing in the future) perhaps that person got it wrong? Unless Demi says "I refute the People magazine article and all other interviews I've given in the past 25 years that give my birth name as Demetria" can we really say, she "disputes" it? 68.125.129.190 (talk) 01:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words; it's always good to collaborate with collegial editors.

These things go both ways, when it comes to a person's own claim. Giuliana Rancic, for instance, has just given her age as a year older than was previously reported. There rarely are one-size-fits-all answers, and given the infinite variety of people and of secondary source-quality, it's hard to imagine we could create one. In this case, we don't know if Moore herself is tweeting or an employee under her direction; I'm not sure if that matters any more than with a speech writer writing the president's speech — the person under whose name it's delivered takes responsibility. And we can't really go by what someone hasn't said; all we have is what they have said. Demi Moore has never said, to give a wild example, "I don't object to snakes eating babies." But that doesn't mean she's in favor of snakes eating babies.

The fact is, we just don't know. And while I personally agree with you, Misplaced Pages works by compromise and consensus, simply because we don't always know. We're giving her personal statement no more or less weight than an opposite statement; I honestly don't think that's undue.

And in a more practical sense, by simply giving all sides and letting the reader draw a conclusion, this compromise — which is completely accurate, as far as that goes — avoids an edit-war, which is what was happening before. And nobody wants that. I don't. I'm sure you don't. Perhaps there are other ways of presenting this that all sides can live with. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:22, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

A couple of other sources to consider; The Cedar Rapids Gazette, 14 Dec 1996 - The letters page has a request as to how demi got her name. An interview with Demi is paraphrased where she has told the Demetria cosmetics story. Note in early interviews (This, Mccalls) she says her name comes from Demetria Cosmetics. In later interviews Such as she says it came from part of the Demetria cosmetic name. The Vallley Independent, 15 NOV 1995 - a childhood friend cites her birth name as Demi and discusses growing up along side her. I'm sure there's more to be found when I raised the Newsmakers 91 entry (which appears to be a published research work by the makers of the Macmillan encyclopaedia) it was pointed out that it's sources all come from newspaper articles so there must be an earlier newspaper claim than 1991 that we don't have access to. It should also be easy for an editor in New Mexico to check the birth announcements of the Roswell Daily Record from 1962. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 06:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Y'know ... this is just my supposition, but it's something to think about. At the previously mentioned gossip site here, Moore is quoted as saying, "My mother named me Demi – which she found, of all things, as part of the name of a make-up." This may explain the dissonance: She may indeed have been named after a makeup line called Demetria, but her mother may only have used that name as the inspiration for "Demi".

This could explain Moore's apparent past comments that she was named after a makeup line — something that could be true and still mean that her birth name was "Demi."

Since, as I said, this is OR analyses, perhaps the best thing we can do is find her earliest direct quote on the subject, and see exactly and precisely what she said. Perhaps we should see her quote in this new light. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Demi's "Oui" spread

There are numerous references that Demi Moore appeared in Oui magazine. LA Times Apr 14, 1991: "After posing for Oui magazine, she proceeded to land a plum role on the soap.." Philadelphia Inquirer April 21, 1991: "At 17, she landed on the cover of Oui magazine..."

Here's a free reference: Entertainment Weekly, 1995. "...she did discover 18-year-old Demi Moore, a novice actress whose only prior appearance seems to have been on the cover of Oui magazine." --The Cunctator (talk)

A single appearance on a magazine cover - one of hundreds - and you added the "porn" discriptive when her picture has nothing to do with porn - totally undue imo. Youreallycan (talk) 22:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

This takes me back: I wrote for Oui in the 1980s, after the original publisher sold it. Their office was on the 60-something floor of the Empire State Building at the time.

"Cheesecake" and "porn" are obviously two different things, and neither adjective is necessary. The fact that one of her first professional gigs was as a magazine cover-model, though, should certainly be neutrally noted, I believe. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Youreallycan seems to be under the misimpression that the only photo of Demi in Oui was the front cover. The fact that her first professional gig was as a magazine cover-model for a full-frontal nude photo shoot, should certainly be neutrally noted. As Misplaced Pages notes, Oui is a pornographic magazine. Is "pornographic" better than "porn"? Is that the objection? --The Cunctator (talk) 23:14, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Tenebrae's edit on this is very well done, btw. It would be nice to find a source that explains it was the January 1981 issue, but I suppose that's trivia. --The Cunctator (talk)

The citation says , but she did discover 18-year-old Demi Moore, a novice actress whose only prior appearance seems to have been on the cover of Oui magazine. - is this like some kind of thirty year old breaking news story?Youreallycan (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words, Cunctator. As I recall, having written for Oui, Genesis and Penthouse back in the day, the magazine industry refers to this segment as "men's sophisticate" magazines. (I was doing technology and film stories and actor/director interviews, BTW, not photographing models or anything.)--Tenebrae (talk) 23:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I hear people read Oui for the articles. This is making miss Omni and Byte (I was too young for the "sophisticate" magazines). --The Cunctator (talk) 23:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh look, it took me 10 seconds to find a reference that Demi posed nude for Oui. Lovece, Frank (27 December 1992). "Moore's pursuit of her role". The Robeson. "youthful wild streak led her to pose nude while underage for Oui magazine" --The Cunctator (talk) 23:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Its your job to provide reliable external support for your desired additions - Thats the kind of external that you should have brought to the discussion instead of edit warring demi was in a porn mag into the article. Youreallycan (talk) 23:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for believing that the actual cover of the porn mag which featured Demi was reliable external support. I used that because that was more informative than other sources, which fail to mention the publication date of the Oui magazine in which she appeared. You have an extraordinarily low threshhold for what an edit war is. ---The Cunctator (talk) 23:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

From that article and from the filmography here both, it looks like Parasite (1982) was actually her second film, not her film debut. It's possible Parasite was filmed first, but unless we have something confirming that, Choices, which came out first (1981) would be her film debut. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Stephen Rebello interview (1993)

Q: Imagine that 20 years from now, you come across the entry for Demi Moore in an encyclopedia of movie stars. What does it say?

A: What I hope for is, "a real diverse, full body of work that shows growth." Work that could be looked on as courageous.

Are we using the Stephen Rebello interview as a source? Viriditas (talk) 07:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

We should: Direct quotes from that stage of her career provides perspective — though, sheesh, is she ever self-aggrandizing, and that first page is such a puff piece. (There's a vulgar term that journalists also use for that kind of compromised writing, but I won't say it here.)

Nice find ... and let's make sure it's archived at Archive.org or Webcitation.org. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Wording of Lead

On the BLP noticeboard, Jimbo Wales raises issues with the lead in it's current form: As a means to address those issues, I'd like to propose the following:

Demi Guynes Kutcher (/dəˈmiː/ də-MEE; born November 11, 1962 as Demi Gene Guynes), known professionally as Demi Moore, is an American actress.

Notes

1. Many sources give her birth name as Demetria or Demitria, however Moore's twitter account has corrected this usage on multiple occasions.

References

1. The New York Times biographical service. 1991. p. 476. Retrieved 15 December 2011. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |Volume= ignored (|volume= suggested) (help)
2. "After 11 Years, Marriage of Stars Demi Moore and Bruce Willis Ends". St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Reuters. p. A2. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
3. Rees, Jasper (26 June 1998). "End of the Bruce and Demi show". The Independent. UK. Retrieved 1 December 2011.
4. Devine, Cate (Jun 28, 2003). "Paying a price for that body beautiful". The Herald. Glasgow. p. 13. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
5. Mock, Janet. "Celebrity Central: Demi Moore". People.com. Retrieved 1 December 2011. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
6. Moore, Demi (May 11, 2009), "Demi is the name I was born with!", @mrskutcher Twitter

Or something similar; maintaining a footnote about the name differences between sources but not debating it in the lead. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 13:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Offhand, it seems a little clunky to have a footnote to Notes footnoted to References, doesn't it?

I'll hunt for his comments, but if you have a link, that'd be great! --Tenebrae (talk) 14:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not finding his comments at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons. Could they be somewhere else? --Tenebrae (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The link to the BLP Noticeboard discussion on 7 December is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=464549052#Demi_Moore.27s_birth_name

What Jimbo Wales actually said was “I think our current version is silly and a BLP violation to boot. We say "though disputed by Moore, many sources give her birth name as Demetria or Demitria.". That makes it sound like we don't believe her. And having this as the second sentence of her biography gives this total non-issue way too much weight!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)”

Although slightly awkward I feel Stuart JaMieson's suggestion has some merit and does address Jimbo's concerns. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 17:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there are many other articles that use cited refs within footnotes, but it does happen(e.g; Plesiorycteropus) and there's plenty of information on using it in places like WP:REFNEST. Altering my last comment I would probably consider moving Gene to the footnote as well as it mainly appears to exist in sources that use Demetria - One copy of her high school yearbook picture is a notable exception but that source is too unreliable to use without checking the actual yearbook. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I've just seen the current Noticeboard discussion. Jimbo made one comment. Then Stuart.Jamieson and AndyTheGrump got into a long discussion, on opposite sides.

Now, I happen to agree with Stuart.Jamieson's pointing out that reliable-source secondary citations have to be given great weight. The fact that AndyTheGrump uses uncivil language and becomes angry is of concern, since being insulting and emotional is the opposite of being calm and rational, and it's calm and rational discussion that's the most informative and constructive. I also find AndyTheGrump's assertion that, in essence, journalists aren't to be trusted is an overly broad, hugely inaccurate, and certainly paranoid-sounding idea.

However, I have to ask whether Jimbo really is suggesting that we disregard RS secondary sources such as Time Inc. (People) and the Encyclopædia Britannica, and that using such sources violates BLP? Are we really convinced that he believes that, or that, busy as he is, he gave the article a cursory glance without looking at the high-RS secondary sources being quoted? --Tenebrae (talk) 19:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I would say J Wales simply said it as it is, or at least his vision of wikipedia and articles about living people. This crap about her name is demeaning to the subject has nothing to do with her notability and hair splitting over it is destructive to the project. The project will be destroyed from inside by such as this minor worthless disputes that have no educational value at all. Ow, ya know that actress, the really famous one, well, some sources say her birth name was bla and some say its bla bla and she says it was just Demi, really that is interesting and informative (not).....Youreallycan (talk) 19:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a valid overview about what seems to be a larger issue, though I'm not sure that quite all that can be read into his short comment.

On a more prosaic, practical level about this specific article, we might want to focus our discussion on the validity of the secondary sources. For myself, I believe someone's name is a very important biographical detail. If we agree that the likes of Time Inc. and Encyclopedia Britannica are valid, then relegating them to fringe status in a buried footnote seems problematic. We need to put our heads together and devise an accurate, elegant solution, and that's going to require serious, sober, focused discussion. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I think Jimmy is simply alluding to a common sense approach with his deeper understanding of what is truly beneficial to the projects long term continuation, as to what is actually worthwhile disputing in regard to living people. As for you claim that after massive wasted time and bytes about this and your claim that more "serious, sober, focused discussion" is needed to resolve this trivial issue that common sense just removed the trivial disputed content, ...tch, ,, enjoy yourself, but it will not benefit the projects aims and ambitions, in fact, imo , such as this bloated worthless dispute is destructive to the project. Youreallycan (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect, no one person, not me, not you, can claim we and only we know what "common sense" is in a given situation. I'm sure that to a journalist who has interviewed and reported on her and has had the material fact-checked and vetted by editors, "common sense" would be to use the reported name.

Some may believe knowing a person's birth name is trivial. Judging from the efforts made by historians writing books to find vital records and give that information, I think it's fair to say that many historians would not find this trivial. We're each entitled to our personal point of view, but not to say that our point of view is the only one that's right of common-sensible.

In any case, a little further up the page I've made an observation that might shed some insight into how these seeming contradiction occurred, and hopefully can help wrap this up. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

@Stuart.Jamieson re: "I would probably consider moving Gene to the footnote as well as it mainly appears to exist in sources that use Demetria"

No need:

• "it's just Demi Gene Guynes "
• "No it is just Demi Gene it was never Demitria!"
• "...it is Just Demi Gene Guynes but thank you"

Fat&Happy (talk) 19:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

On that basis it may need to be explained within the footnote that media sources use "Demetria Gene" and that the twitter account affirms Gene but not Demetria... Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

We currently have Youreallycan trying to unilaterally change the compromise version to his own POV, which is "Demi." Other editors believe it's "Demetria." There is no consensus for one or the other, so I believe it's improper for this editor to try to change the lead to his own POV. I'd like to have other editors comment, please. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Please see the long discussion on Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Demi_Moore.27s_birth_name. There is nothing 'unilateral' about this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:19, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I have seen that discussion. User:Stuart.Jamieson there among others disagrees with you there. So you have simply put your own POV despite mountains of reliable, journalistic evidence, as well as the Encyclopedia Britannica, that says otherwise. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:23, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Either take part in the discussion, or stop waffling on about POV. It is a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT to put an accusation that Demi is lying about her name into the article lede - and it would still be, if it were verifiably true. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

You're misusing "waffling." Regardless, as I have said, editors at the noticeboard disagree with you. Your saying that you know better than Time Inc., the Encyclopedia Britannica and other valid journalistic and encyclopedic sources both amazes and appalls me. And your characterization of anyone who disagrees with you as accusing her of lying — as opposed to being mistaken, or not knowing (how many of us have seen our birth certificate?) or any number of other reasons is remarkably tarring with a broad brush anyone who disagrees with your POV about her name. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

• - The good faith edit that removed the disputed personal detail from the lede to the early life section has multiple benefits - no detail is lost at all - the primary benefit is the disputed personal detail is moved from the lede to the early life section where it sits better, with less weight - considering WP:BLP. Also - the Encyclopedia Britannica has multiple issues and using it to support wikipedia positions is not one of them. Basically - it was a good faith NPOV edit and you should consider allowing it a chance to be accepted without your reverts. Youreallycan (talk) 01:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

• I'm with 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF on this. A bit awk, but the best approach. IMHO.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:42, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Tenebrae, Some editors at BLP disagree with me. Some don't. And BTW, I don't have a POV on what Demi's name is. I have a 'POV' about Misplaced Pages not implying that she is lying about it, particularly in the lede of the article. If you consider the matter so important, why didn't you take apart in the WP:BLPN discussion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I mean this sincerely when I say that I'm gratified you can acknowledge that some editors (including one here, just above) disagree with you. I was afraid I was speaking with a different sort of person, based on some of your previous comments. I still believe that Time Inc., et al., are not wholesale liars or incompetents incapable of doing one of the basic tasks of journalism, which is spelling names right. I got into this article when, as a journalist myself, I wanted to check on her name. And as someone who considers Misplaced Pages a good place to find footnoted references already gathered in one place that I can then check for myself, I am saying in all honesty that burying such basic information makes it harder for those of us who use Misplaced Pages in a practical, everyday sense.

But this partisan debate has worn me down. I leave this page with every assumption that you are editing in good faith and I sincerely applaud your passion and dedication to a project we both believe in very much. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

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