Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:39, 22 February 2012

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

This is not the page to report problems to administrators or request blocks.
	This page is for discussion of the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy itself. Report incidents such as block evasion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Report violations of the three-revert rule at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Report active, persistent vandals at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism.

See WP:PROPOSAL for Misplaced Pages's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies. See how to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance for recommendations regarding the creation and updating of policy and guideline pages.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24

This page has archives. Sections older than 120 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Block evasion=socking?

Isn't block evasion, by its definition, socking?Jasper Deng (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Unblock template - user friendly?

I've started at discussion at WP:AN#Unblock template - user friendly? but perhaps I should have started it here. This template is hard for users - new and old - to use given the problems I've seen with it and my problems in fixing them. Any suggestions as to how to fix it? EyeSerene's made one suggestion but I don't know if it's feasible. Dougweller (talk) 12:09, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion to change/add wording to the Block policy

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Inspired in part by a discussion at WP:AN, which was in part inspired by a comment Newyorkbrad made here. I am proposing the following change to the blocking policy:

"Most blocks are not controversial, but sometimes a block requires discussion in the general community to establish its appropriateness. In the case of community discussions regarding a block, the status quo is defined as "unblocked". For a practical purpose, that means that any block needs consensus to remain in place. Blocks that have community consensus may be enacted (if they have not been already) or retained (if the block preceded the discussion)."

The rationale behind this is simple: it removes the "first mover" advantage to blocking first and then starting a discussion. It shouldn't matter whether the discussion precedes the block or the block precedes the discussion, there needs to be a consensus that an editor needs to be blocked in order to be blocked. Blocking first and then seeking a discussion should not get a different result than starting the discussion before the block. We should be clear also that administrators who block someone and whose block is later undone by community consensus are not automatically at fault or wrong, but if the community is not behind a block, a person should not be blocked.

Feel free to discuss this below, make any suggested changes, etc. etc. In light of recent events, and in light of Newyorkbrads well thought out explanation of the conundrum, a change of this sort is really needed. Thoughts? Ideas? Support? Oppose? --Jayron32 01:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator --Jayron32 01:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
2. Unblocked is a reasonable default. The most important aspect is eliminating first/second mover nonsense; community action should not be the result of accidents of timing. Nobody Ent 02:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
3. Specifying any default for the "status quo" is more reasonable in my view than the almost chaotic outcome these "no consensus" discussions typically have. I would like to see additional mention of the length of the block, rather than just the binary yes/no outcome of "no consensus" discussions, but this proposal is a good first step. I have one lingering concern over this default, namely that editors with many wikifriends are officially unblockable now via "normal" blocks. (These may be good content contributors who are regularly rowdy, or they may be POV pushers with similar wikifriends.) I estimate that AE blocks, topic bans, RfC/Us, and Arbitration are going to be used more often if this proposal passes. This is not necessarily a bad development though. Perhaps it's a transition towards less cowboy wikijustice. Finally, I note that for quite some years now ArbCom has advanced the view that blocks are a remedy of last resort for long term contributors, even if there's staunch opposition to that view around these parts . (ArbCom has repeated that view in their latest PD here and here). ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
4. If there is no strong consensus in support of a block, it should not exist. --He to Hecuba (talk) 14:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
5. Especially for long term and indef. — Ched :  ?  15:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
6. In general I think we need some changes in this area. However I think #Montanabw is a much better wording and that there are some legitimate issues raised by the opposers with the current wording. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 'No consensus' usually means 'no change' on Misplaced Pages, and we should stick to that principle with blocks. Additionally, I think this change is likely to encourage wheel warring: admin A blocks, admin B unblocks claiming 'no consensus for block', admin A reblocks claiming 'there is a consensus', etc. (I realise that can and does happen already, but any wording in policy which tells admins to overturn each other's actions will encourage it.) Finally, this is going to cause problems with requests for unblocks. Currently, when a long-term blocked user requests to be unblocked, their request is only granted if there is a rough consensus in support. Under this proposal, if there is no consensus as to whether they should be unblocked, presumably 'default to unblock' would apply. I think that's a bad route to go down: overturning a block should require consensus, not the lack of it. Robofish (talk) 13:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   As an afterthought, I would support this policy specifically for indefinite blocks, though. I don't think an indefinite block should be imposed where there isn't consensus for it. But for normal blocks, I think the best approach to a lack of consensus is simply to let the block expire. Robofish (talk) 13:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

2. I agree with Robofish. The proposal would enshrine the second-mover advantage, encourages wheel-warring and provides effective immunity to blocks for anyone with a certain number of friends who show up at ANI. This would make policy enforcement even more arbitrary, ochlocratic and dependent on social dynamics. Admins should normally defer to decisions made by colleagues, and overturning blocks should normally need community consensus. But I'm open to discussing rule-based, transparent methods to resolve disagreements about controversial blocks, e.g., referral to a panel of three or five uninvolved admins.  Sandstein  14:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   The "friends who show up" issue can be handled the same way that it is in AFD, by tagging such accounts with the {{spa}} tag and allowing the admin who closes the unblock discussion to make a "strength of argument" determination. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   Such a panel already exists. It's called ArbCom. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

3. I am persuaded by the opposes. I would feel better about the post-block consensus discussions if all commenters were impartial going in. But that seldom seems (or, too often does not seem) the case. They are either involved, or they seem previously partial for or against the User or Administrator. Crowd sourcing has its pitfalls. All blocks should be good blocks (especially for the less popular user). All administrators should exercise good judgment (or be removed). Process and policy should advance these as the defaults. The community should trust its admins to do the right thing, the first time. Of course, appeal should be allowed but not to a stacked deck, either for or against. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
4. No. This would enshrine the concept of wheel-warring and encourage undoing of the status quo based on subjective interpretations of "consensus", which is often declared based on the first few interested parties to show up on ANI. A more useful offering would be that in cases of no consensus on indef blocks, the discussion is spun out into a full RfC on "should this user be blocked, and for what duration", formatted as an RFC/U, running the full length of 30 days and closed by two or three uninvolved admins at the end of that. Yes, it's bureaucratic and drags out, but at least it avoids the issue of "first person to call 'consensus!' or 'no consensus!' gets to do what they want" and allows for full community discussion and the avoidance of the blocked party's best friend or worst enemy being the one to decide whether there's a consensus to do anything. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   So shorter blocks would just time out, I'm inferring? Would the indef'd editor be unblocked to participate in the RFC/U while banned from editing elsewhere? Nobody Ent 20:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   Yes, I suppose they would. A full RFC wouldn't be useful for a 24-hour or weeklong block, at any rate, due to time constraints. If we wanted to, I would say my idea could be stripped down to bare bones of "block discussion threads must run for a minimum of 24 hours and must be closed by two or more admins in agreement over the result." The main issue, as I see it in these contentious block/unblock threads is hasty calling of consensus or lack thereof, often by an involved, or at least non-impartial, party. The right answer isn't to default to either block or unblock, it's to make sure the threads are run cleanly so that an individual consensus can be built in each case. At least, that's mho. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

   The idea to move to a RfC/U in such cases has already been rejected on WP:AN. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   That's unfortunate, but it doesn't make this proposal any more acceptable an alternative in my mind. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Mu

1. This proposal was initiated in response to this ANI discussion which was inspired by a conundrum raised by NYB. Far from addressing the problem, this discussion illustrates it. The "default to unblock" position is reasonable, as is the "no consensus means no change" position. Rather than arguing a point here, I encourage editors to engage with opposing views. For example, this proposal is evidently not intended to encourage wheel-warring, as nobody wants that. For another example, if indefinite blocks require special treatment, how about really long blocks? Please do not ask me alone, as I already made my proposal at WT:AN, and it still looks pretty good to me. However, please do read and reflect on the basis for views contrary to your own, and look for a better solution. And if, on reflection, you are open minded about dialog and possible solutions, the merits of diverse views, feel free to say "mu", as I do, rather than "support" or "oppose". Geometry guy 01:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
2. I'm not really getting the "Mu" meme but I support any protocol which eliminates first mover/second mover or the "quickest" (or second quickest?) admins' decision from having precedence over everyone else's. It's definitely reasonable to split blocks into short term and long term categories -- if consensus is sketchy there's not harm in having an editor clock out a short term block, but editor's should not be indeffed unless there's a clear consensus to do so. Nobody Ent 01:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

• question Is there any expected time frame for this RfC? Meaning, 7 days? 30 days? The reason I ask is that my time on wiki is spotty, and will be for the next couple weeks; but I do want to throw my 2-cents in. At first blush, I'm inclined to support for many reasons, but agree that the couple opposes do have valid points. I'd like time to review and research a bit before committing a definitive support. (or oppose). — Ched :  ?  18:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• As long as it needs... --Jayron32 18:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• As per previous similar proposals on AN, this one also has a snowball's chance in hell of passing. I suggest early closure, because it's already proving to be a waste of time. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

  Calm your liver. If it passes it passes, if it fails it fails, but its been open 20 hours and 8 people have commented. I wouldn't call 8 people "the community". Give it a few days. Seriously. If you don't like it, vote oppose and get it over with. But don't feel the need to prevent other people from discussing proposals you don't personally like. --Jayron32 21:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks for your kind concern for my health. I've already !voted support in case you didn't notice. Based on the preliminary discussion, I just don't think this going to have the necessary support to make a policy change. The WP:V 1st sentence change was rejected even though the !vote was 2:1 in favor. Good luck. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

  I'd also say that in general avoiding immediate commentary one way or another is the wisest course of action - that avoids any possibility of losing face if one want's to change their mind. Giving people a chance to think about this properly is probably sensible. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

  I'd also mention that we are into the weekend now and I can easily imagine that many editors do less editing during that time due to items they may want to engage in in their real lives. And yep - WP:V is indeed a very tough audience. (also - thank you Jayron32 for a very well designed proposal.) — Ched :  ?  22:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: I see a need, perhaps for three different things here. 1) A default status in general when, AFTER DISCUSSION, there is no consensus - i.e. if no consensus, then unblocked is the default. In principle, I like that and support the need for a default standard. BUT there is also 2) Blocks used on people actively and currently being quite disruptive -- vandals or real mean-spirited, attacking sorts. These need to not be subject to wheel-warring and unblocked too hastily, as sometimes the disruption starts right up again. It's good to give these sorts of things a few days to sort themselves out, give everyone time to weigh in, and be sure that the "consensus" reached is a real one and not simply a dogpile in one direction or another. BUT 3) Then we have the long term blocks, which usually are for users with a lot of experience but also a lot of baggage -- not the immediate vandal-type abusers who need (and deserve) fast, firm short blocks (which often reform those sorts quickly or they leave quickly). These longer term discussions are probably are the most in need of the default concept, that, summed up, may mean that if there are 10,000 supporters on one side and 10,001 opposes on the other that after two weeks of yammering around and around with no clear consensus in either direction, just everyone repeating themselves, the default is unblock. Thoughts? Montanabw 20:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Seems very sensible. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

    I also see a lot of sense in these comments. Geometry guy 22:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

    Sounds good to me, but it's going to be tricky to word it as policy. How exactly would you describe the difference between situation 1 (where the user should be unblocked) and situation 2 (where they shouldn't)? Something like 'where there is no consensus on whether a block is appropriate, the user should be unblocked, except when they are likely to disrupt Misplaced Pages'? That seems a bit like begging the question, particularly if the question of whether they will disrupt Misplaced Pages is the very matter there was no consensus about... Robofish (talk) 16:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I still feel like this is a solution in search of a problem. Further rules (even soft cultural ones) should arise when there is a need. Can we please list some blocks that were perceived as problematic? Not discussing the blocks themselvs, please, just listing them so that we can see if they are worth discussing. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 00:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See WP:AN and WP:ANI. It's a rare day where there isn't a thread on one or both of those noticeboards asking for a review of a block; if there isn't one today, check the archives. You'll find thousands of such discussions. --Jayron32 01:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

More rules won't stop bad judgment. If a block needs to be discussed, don't do it. Blocking is a last resort, to be used only when other options won't work, and when it is obvious that the block is correct. Jehochman 01:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, Jayron, that's a non-response. 1) The simple presence of threads asking for review of a block would not indicate that there was a problem with first-mover's advantage. 2) The burden of proof is typically on the person making the claim. If you say that this is an issue, it's best if you don't just wave your hands and say "look there!" Particularly if there are thousands than it's no burden for you to provide an example. 3)There's nothing I see on ANI or AN right now that falls under "first mover." - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 02:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I can pull up one right now, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility enforcement started over exactly this issue, and is exactly the kind of block that results in contentiousness. Indeed, many of these sorts of blocks end up at ArbCom eventually, which only shows that the community has not, as yet, devised a way to deal with them equitably. See also this case which was declined titled "Unblocks and enabling". Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration Enforcement sanction handling is yet another one. There are many such ArbCom cases and ANI threads where the community doesn't show the ability to be able to decide how to handle when a long-term, polarizing editor is blocked. The idea behind this is that, when there is no consensus to block, a person should not be blocked. Period. It would head-off a lot of problems which clearly exist. I understand that you oppose this idea, Aaron Brenneman, and I would feel fine with you voting oppose, but I find it troublesome that you seek to short-circuit the discussion by refusing to acknowledge an open problem. --Jayron32 04:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

To be fair it is possible that, like me, he is thinking about how he will comment before committing to !voting one way or another.

I have to say I do prefer Montanabw's wording as it addresses the actual issue without affecting anything wider. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I think his wording is great as well. This discussion is intended to be a starting point, and not an end, and I certainly don't have any attachment to my wording or to the final result of the discussion per se, but it is important that we have the discussion as a community, given the obvious problem. I'm most concerned with resolution, not necessarily any particular resolution, excepting solving the problem in a way that works. --Jayron32 14:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayron, please consider how the tone of your response affects the way debate continues. That aside, if we only have two examples, do we really think that this is a problem worth discussion? Further, I am able to disagree with you that there's a problem (which I have not, please note, done) without it being somehow disruptive to the discussion. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 10:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

One of those examples led to over 100 people commenting on an Arbcom request - its clearly a problem. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, that's handwaving. How any of those "over 100" commenting raised the issue of first mover? What is the "it" that is clearly a problem? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The case is here: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility_enforcement Nobody Ent 01:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• I also like Montanabw's views. I think she says things well. — Ched :  ?  04:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hypotheticals

How would the examples given above have been different if the "no consensus on blocking means unblocked" guideline had been in place? For the civility case, are we talking about Hawkeye's block? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 10:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No, Thumperward's. And here's the problem: a principle that "no consensus on blocking means unblocked" would have added further support to John's unblock, because there was certainly no consensus for the block. However, the very process of undoing another admin's action, while the issue remains a bone of contention, can itself be disruptive, as it turned out to be in this case. This is one reason I proposed shortening no consensus blocks, rather than simply undoing them. Geometry guy 11:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Another ongoing example is Misplaced Pages:ANI#On-wiki_harrassment.2C_POV_editing.2C_and_off-wiki_attacks. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone considered the irony of having very detailed processes in place to delete articles (including discussions being open for 7 days), but to revoke an editors' access to wikipedia requires one blocking admin and "no-consensus" at ANI? We should propose to re-write the deletion policy so that the first admin to delete it gains first-mover advantage, and require undeletions to go through ANI/AN. 204.50.172.132 (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment